The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Meaning of Juneteenth
Far from being somehow at odds with July 4 and the Declaration of Independence, Juneteenth celebrates the greatest achievement of the principles of the Revolution.
In addition to being Father's Day, today is also Juneteenth. Last year, I wrote a post about the meaning of this newly instituted federal holiday that I think remains relevant. I reprint it with minor modifications below:
Juneteenth commemorates the abolition of slavery in 1865. Some conservatives who opposed its establishment as a national holiday argue it might somehow detract from Independence Day on July 4, or promote left-wing identity politics. For their part, some on the left may view it as a condemnation of America's history of slavery and racism, or even a celebration of black nationalism.
In reality, however, the abolition of slavery was the greatest achievement of the universal principles underlying the American Revolution, and a rebuke to ethnic nationalism and separatism.
Abolition was only achieved thanks to a multiracial movement that emphasized the universality of the right to liberty, and the moral arbitrariness of distinctions based on race.

It is no accident that the antislavery movement was also accompanied by what historian Kate Masur calls "America's First Civil Rights Movement," which sought equal rights for blacks that went beyond simply abolishing slavery.
As Masur and other scholars have documented, both black and white abolitionists routinely cited the universalist principles of the Founding in making the case for abolition and racial equality, even as many of them also criticized the Founders (and later generations of white Americans) for their hypocritical failure to fully live up to their own principles. From early on, critics of the American Revolution denounced the contradiction between its professed ideals and the reality of widespread slavery. "How is it," Samuel Johnson famously wrote, "that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"
While the hypocrisy and contradictions were very real, so too is the fact that Revolution and Founding made abolition possible, in part by giving a boost to universalistic Enlightenment liberalism on both sides of the Atlantic. I summarized some of the reasons why here:
Far from retarding the abolition of slavery, the Revolution actually accelerated it. Its triumph gave a big boost to Enlightenment liberalism, which inspired the First Emancipation in the US (the abolition of slavery in the North that became the first large-scale emancipation of slaves in modern history), and boosted antislavery movements in Europe, as well….
Had the Revolution been defeated, Enlightenment liberal ideology would have been dealt a setback in Britain and France, too. That would have set back antislavery movements there, as well. It is no accident that many antislavery leaders in Europe were also sympathizers with the American Revolution.
For all their failings, the Revolution and Founding paved the way for abolition. That happened in large part because they were the first large-scale effort to establish a polity based on universal liberal principles rather than ties of race, ethnicity, or culture.
Those principles are at the root of most of America's achievements, of which the abolition of slavery was perhaps the most important. They are also what enabled America, at its best, to offer freedom and opportunity to people from a wide range of racial and ethnic backgrounds from all over the world.
Abraham Lincoln, who issued the Emancipation Proclamation whose belated enforcement Juneteenth celebrates - put it best in his famous speech on the Declaration of Independence and its implications for slavery:
I think the authors of that notable instrument intended to include all men, but they did not mean to declare all men equal in all respects…. They did not mean to assert the obvious untruth, that all were then actually enjoying that equality, or yet, that they were about to confer it immediately upon them…
They meant simply to declare the right, so that the enforcement of it might follow as fast as circumstances should permit.
They meant to set up a standard maxim for free society which should be familiar to all: constantly looked to, constantly labored for, and even, though never perfectly attained, constantly approximated, and thereby constantly spreading and deepening its influence and augmenting the happiness and value of life to all people, of all colors, every where.
The success of the antislavery movement's appeal to liberal universalism has been a model for later expansions of freedom, as well - including equal rights for women, the Civil Rights Movement of the twentieth century, and the struggle for same-sex marriage. It is a model that advocates of migration rights would do well to emulate today.
The work of fully living up to the ideals of the Founding wasn't completed in Lincoln's time, and it remains seriously incomplete even now. But Juneteenth commemorates perhaps our greatest step in the right direction. And it reminds us that further progress towards liberty and equal rights depends on emphasizing the same principles that made abolition possible.
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I'm sure a slew of reasonable, respectful, and thoughtful comments will appear below. ????
Ilya. Please. How many illegales and diverses live on your street?
After 1750, everyone educated knew slavery was wrong. The American Revolution was a dumb lawyer mistake, along with slavery in the constitution. The Civil War was a dumb lawyer mistake. Unfair to judge the past by current standards. Fair enough. How about the megadeaths from lawyer mistakes just the past 2 years?
I propose making the Stonewall Uprising a national Holiday. It took place June 28, 1969.
Frankie. Can hemorrhoids cause tenesmus? I may start calling Queenie, Rhoid.
Speaking of Stonewall, Buttigieg threw a tantrum when his flight From DC to NYC was cancelled. Why is he flying 250 miles? He should be setting an example by taking the train.
Hey you vile scumbags. The door to the Uvalde class may have been unlocked. Your feminized agents did not try 26 keys. You filthy pro criminal lawyer scum all need an ass kicking. Toxic vile traitor filth. We have to get rid of you.
All PC is case. All woke is case. The scumbag lawyer is the sourve of this national torment. Small defeat of woke. Trannies banned in female competition by the international sports authority, FINA. You lawyer scum are imposing your delusions on us at the point of a gun. Face ruinous litigation and cancel culture ffor wanting reality.
Ilya is making Democrat talking points. Soldiers arrived at at town, informed people who did not read the papers, they were free. It has a Miranda Warning flavor to it, government officials informing people of their rights. They were not liberated. They were informed they were liberated. Juneteenth is just woke hate speech. What the woke hate is the USA.
"Had the Revolution been defeated, Enlightenment liberal ideology would have been dealt a setback in Britain and France, too. That would have set back antislavery movements there, as well."
Sorry, Ilya, that's just crazy. Has the American Revolution failed, slavery would have ended in 1833, enforced by a sheriff, not by a war killing 1% of the male population. It then devastated race relations for 100 years. We would have been like Canada, less extreme.
Much like from 2016-2020 Twitter was full of respectful and thoughtful discussion and debate about public policy.....
Something about glass houses and throwing stones....
Yeah, that's why Twitter threw Trump out.
Just the ticket; another "national holiday". Federal employees rejoice, ut how do you take a holiday while already "working" from home?
Meanwhile in NJ both Friday and Monday mark the "celebration".
This is as much of a holiday as Kwanza.
"but" not "ut".
Hey remember how the Federals paid themselves something like an extra $5k a month while they shutdown everyone else?
Your point is? All holidays are made up. Some are just older.
I wouldn't go THAT far; It's much more of a holiday than Kwanza ever was.
Up until the race panic of 2020, this was a minor, regional holiday that got elevated as people were looking for alms to throw at BLM. I think Patriot Day in MA is a much better candidate for a regional holiday to get elevated to national status, but here in our race hustling present that is never going to happen.
At least we should be glad Congress didn't cancel Columbus Day or Presidents Day and replace it with this minor, regional appeasement. That is bound to be what happens next though so get ready for it.
Well they "canceled" Washington's birthday (although technically that remains it's official designation) with President's day, and there are groups working to cancel Columbus Day and replace it with Indigenous Peoples Day.
Up next Cinco de Mayo as a national holiday.
"Well they "canceled" Washington's birthday (although technically that remains it's official designation) with President's day"
My understanding is that President's day splits the difference between Washington's birthday and Lincoln's birthday. It canceled nothing.
Your understanding is wrong. Indeed, the federal holiday continues to be Washington's Birthday. Some states have renamed it as President's Day, and many auto dealerships and appliance stores have. But the feds continue to celebrate Washington's Birthday.
(Other states celebrate both birthdays.)
I wish they would swap Columbus Day for Indigenous People's Day. Then we could celebrate by building pyramids in the parks and drenching them with infant blood to honor the Sun god. Way more fun than a parade.
Juneteenth as a holiday falls too closely between other mandated holidays -- 2-3 weeks after Memorial day, two weeks before July 4th. Better to pick something in April, between President's Day and Memorial day, and the obvious candidate is April 15th, the Glorious Pay Your Fair Share Tax Day!
Columbus Day is a silly holiday as far as holiday meanings go, but its timing is great, halfway between Labor Day and Thanksgiving. Otherwise, all it does is surprise people who stop by a bank or post office.
Thankfully there are no holidays between Memorial Day and Labor Day. Who wants to waste a holiday during prime vacation time?
?
Oh lighten up Francis. The general message is obvious even to you.
Alternatives would have been the anniversary of the ratification of the 13th Amendment, which falls on December 8 (or 18th if you want the day it was confirmed), or the Emancipation Proclamation, which falls on January 1, so you'd have the same difficulty. (The last few slaves in Kentucky and Delaware were freed by the 13th Amendment, months after Juneteenth, though everyone knew it was coming.)
If they passed a Pay Your Fair Share holiday only 40% of us would be able to take the day off.
“a minor, regional holiday”
Demonstrably false:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ccfDoiDcSM
Come on, he means that only black people celebrated it and black people don't count to him. When interpreted that way, his statement is true.
David, how are you celebrating Juneteeth? Tell the class.
If this becomes a federal holiday, can we eliminate the non-holiday of Labor Day? I know it generally marks the end of the Summer but it is no just a made up day, chosen at random, signifying nothing. Are we celebrating the fact that people must work? Are we giving people a pat on the back for earning a living? Is that not what a paycheck does?
I would much rather see people celebrate the anniversary of the abolition of a legal system that allowed human bondage.
Uh…..I’ve got some bad news for you.
I know
A day celebrating end of slavery is fine. How about an historic meaningful date like 13A ratification day or Appomattox Day? Not some random day when a forgotten Union general issued a random proclamation in some Texas backwater.
Racist.
I'd much rather have a holiday in June than April or November!
*December, obviously - not sure how November got there.
You've got July 4th just two weeks later, and had Memorial day just 2-3 weeks before. Wouldn't you rather have a holiday in April during the dry stretch between President's Day and Memorial Day?
It's not even good as a warmup for summer vacation, since school generally is out by then and the holiday means nothing to school kids.
Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but April in my area is pretty slow with lousy weather—I'd much rather have a day off in the summer when I can actually do something fun. And not having kids miss a day of school seems like an extra point in favor of the timing.
The Stonewall Rebellion was June 28. I will be celebrating that by being fabulous.
I’m so so sorry the newly freed slaves didn’t come up with a day that would satisfy Bob from Ohio. How rude of them to have their celebration spread across the South and later the nation organically over the last 155 years instead of satisfying what Bob from Ohio thinks is the appropriate day to commemorate.
You should definitely tell black people they’ve been commemorating slavery wrong this whole time. They’re gonna be shocked. And while you’re at it, you should tell Christians they shouldn’t celebrate Christmas in December.
You were correct Noscitur a sociis {I'm sure a slew of reasonable, respectful, and thoughtful comments will appear below.]
Your response was far from reasonable thoughtful or respectful. You’re dismissing the experiences of black people because they don’t meet your criteria for when you should celebrate.
There are no freed slaves still alive though
He's said that a more appropriate day should be picked, that "Juneteenth" may be inappropriate because we still had a number of enslaved african americans after that day.
Yeah. Well that’s not the one freed people settled on. Who is he to say what’s appropriate for something that has been part of black culture for 155 years?
See my Google Ngram result below. It does not appear plausible that "Juneteenth" has been a part of black culture for 155 years, except locally in Texas for most of that time.
Bob from Ohio is right. Every June I have to explain that slavery did not end on Juneteenth. Recalled that the emancipation proclamation excluded parts of the south that were considered pro-union. Those slaves were not emancipated. And slavery continue to exist in Delaware until the first weeks of December 1865.
The final abolition of slavery occurred on December 18, 1865, when the 13th amendment was ratified.But unionized public employees would rather have another taxpayer-funded paid day off in June than one in December.
Okay. Well get in a time machine and tell the freed slaves they actually shouldn’t commemorate June 19th for the next 150 years because it’s wrong.
So, what do you tell the slaves in Delaware who weren't actually freed on that day?
Not really relevant since in the last 155 years Juneteenth became the holiday.
So, all those ex-slaves in Delaware in 1868 who weren't actually freed on "Juneteenth", but needed to wait an additional 6 months...
Decided to celebrate the holiday when a bunch of other slaves were freed a couple years ago? But they were still enslaved....
Me thinks that's rather unlikely.
Probably nothing, since they've been dead for a very long time.
Did he say that? Seems he was saying that Juneteenth had nothing to do with the abolition of slavery as that occurred 6 months later.
Juneteenth is a major day in our history, but it has little to do with the overall cessation of slavery. That occurred on 12/18/65.
Galveston was a Texas backwater? Don’t know much of your history, huh.
Galveston was a bigger deal than Houston until it got wiped out by the Hurricane if 1900. It was the largest city in Texas in 1850 and 1870. Backwater my ass.
Population of Galveston County in the 1860 census was 8,229 and 15,290 in 1870. [source The County Information Program, Texas Association of Counties]
Gigantic!
The population of the United States was a lot lower back then. LA had 5,700 people in 1870. Galveston was in the top 100 cities, roughly equivalent to places like Buffalo and Richmond today.
You political zealots always have to argue instead of occasionally saying something like “wow, I didn’t know that.” Because clearly you didn’t.
And LA was a backwater in 1870.
Is Buffalo a backwater now? With NHL and NHL teams?
I don’t get the animus toward this. I’ve lived in Texas since 1974 and in all that time I’ve managed to both ignore it and avoid being bothered by it. Its existence is not doing me any harm. Or you.
I think the point is that nobody reasonable thinks that events local to Buffalo or Richmond should determine national holidays.
Indeed.
We already have MLK, black history month, and kwanzaa and probably some others I'm forgetting. Why do we need a 31st day essentially dedicated to SJWs lecturing us on how much of a bunch of rotten racists against blacks we were/are? What makes 31 optimal? Why not 3 or 300?
Yeah sure slavery specifically and minority struggles generally and whatever else this new crop of postmodern social justice religious holidays (Pride Weekend/Month, Women's History Day/Mouth etc etc, they're now carving out superspecial days in addition to months too) are ostensibly about are important events in history. But they aren't the ONLY thing in the world we should think about. You know theres, science and the founding of towns and stuff?
Literally over just a period of a few years we've rammed straight toward a situation where we're in a state of constant obsession over this one topic all year long. Is this really healthy?
Kwanzaa and black history month are federal holidays?
Can you point to the parts of this post that you felt were "lecturing us on how much of a bunch of rotten racists against blacks we were/are"?
SJW holidays are all about making the rest of society as obsessed over the social justice cult as SJWs are. Its no different (other than Catholicism making more sense) than if a (real) Catholic government took power and started pumping up the importance of Saint holidays throughout the year and all of a sudden your coke drink and bank and all the airwaves around you were plastered with propaganda telling you how you should pray the rosary and stuff. Saint Juliana of Tripoli bravely died for her beliefs and caused some town in Turkey to embrace Jesus. You aren't against celebrating women making history are you?
In addition to this 'positive' stuff. They are also about instilling an attitude where society can constantly wring its hands over how sinful they were/are against fill in the blank group. SJWs like many religions are really big on the concept of sin. They'll deny it till they're blue in the face but all you need to do is look at the feelsbad propaganda they roll out about slavery/glass ceiling etc at the same time they roll out the feelsgood propaganda that is what its all supposed to be about.
Last year and this year, the messaging I've seen from the establishment—including people like the president who are normally all too cozy with the lunatic left—have been patriotic messages of pride in this country's ideals, recognition of its achievements in securing liberty for all, and optimism at how we'll continue bringing forward the best the nation has to offer into the future. This is exactly what conservatives stand for, and we should be embracing a holiday that so neatly speaks to our values, both because those values are so popular with the American people, and because the holiday surely will be co-opted by the usual race hucksters if reasonable people reject it.
"and because the holiday surely will be co-opted by the usual race hucksters if reasonable people reject it."
The whole think was promoted by race hucksters.
Making a holiday out of an obscure event is political theater.
I agree—there was a lot of gaslighting in 2020 trying to leverage a holiday most people had never heard of into an opportunity to leverage some extra points for their fringe lunacy.
Fortunately, the holiday we actually got has manifest so far as a celebration of American ideals and American history generally, with a particular focus on the accomplishments of the armed forces and the Republican Party. Why wouldn't you want to embrace that while you have the chance?
" other than Catholicism making more sense "
Do you genuinely believe fairy tales are true, or do you just claim to believe fairy tales are true?
Obsolete, superstitious right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties. How long before every remaining clinger is packed into Idaho, Wyoming, or Montana?
How did Social Justice Warrior come to be an epithet? To be put in the company of Martin Luther King, Jr., Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela seems to me to be high praise.
It became an epithet because the term is both an oxymoron, and generally used sarcastically.
It's an oxymoron because "justice" is purely individual, so the moment you append "social" to it, you're clearly talking about something other than justice.
I don't suppose the sarcastic part needs explaining.
How did Social Justice Warrior come to be an epithet? To be put in the company of Martin Luther King, Jr., Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela seems to me to be high praise.
That you think the virtue-signaling morons to whom that label is applied to are, "in the company of Martin Luther King, Jr., Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela" doesn't speak well of your cognitive abilities...or lack thereof.
Juneteenth, a made-up word for a made-up holiday brought to you by pandering politicians and government employee unions to
secure yet another holiday.
The name, even in of itself, sounds like something a seven year old made up when asked to write a story about a magical holiday in June.
I’m so so sorry that the slaves who weren’t allowed to be literate or educated didn’t come up with a better name for you.
What's your view of Christmas and Easter, Jimmy the Dane? Are they "real American" holidays, from your bigoted, stale, conservative, white nationalist perspective?
Yes.
🙂
All holidays are made up. All names for holidays are made up. And in any event this is aggressively false. Juneteenth has a long history that wasn’t brought by politicians but by black people themselves developing it over time.
Yes, unlike absolutely real holidays like "Christmas," which celebrates an arbitrary birthday of a fictional character, Juneteenth is a "made-up holiday."
This is perhaps the dumbest argument ever made on the internet.
Why, because we hardly even pretend that Christmas celebrates the arbitrary birthday of a fictional character anymore, and instead celebrate twinkle-lights and getting gifts?
Well, that's historically ignorant, pretending that Jesus was a fictional character. (Yeah, the birthday was arbitrary, as one of our local priests used to actually explain occasionally in his homily.)
It's probable that Jesus is not a fictional character, but everything about the Nativity that gets celebrated certainly is fictional. Also, most of what we "know" about the life of Jesus is made up fiction.
There may have been some Jewish rabbi named Yeshua who lived in 1st century Judea; that's not exactly an uncommon combination. He may have been executed by the Romans. There's a bit — not much, but a bit — of evidence for that. I suppose that if one digs hard enough one may be able to uncover the existence of a 19th century lumberjack named Paul Bunyan, too. That wouldn't mean that the Paul Bunyan that kids read about isn't a fictional character, though; it would just mean that the fictitious character from the fictitious stories was based on the name of a real person. There are no non-religious sources for any of the stories about what the character 'Jesus' did.
My intent here isn't to denigrate Christians specifically; pretty much all religions require belief in 'historical' events that are fictitious. My intent here is to denigrate someone who wants to claim that a holiday he doesn't like is "made up," when in fact all holidays are "made up," and this particular one is based on actual known events, unlike many others.
For someone who claims not to be ignorant and regularly derides people around here for being so, this is just shows how unserious you are about those accusations.
Jesus existed. There is plenty of support in the historical record. Trying to compare him to Paul Bunyan is just simply inane.
The meaning of any "holiday" has more to do with the impression it has on the society or civilization recognizing it than anything else. With Juneteenth we have something that was a minor footnote in history being elevated because of racial huxterism. If you are completely ignorant to the effects Christianity has had on the world walk through any town and look at the number of churches around. You might not like it, think believer's are stupid, but simply cannot argue (with any degree of sincerity) that Christmas recognized because of the vast majority of strongly held beliefs in the society.
There is almost no support in the historical record (assuming one does not count the Christian bible as a historical record, anyway). You have a couple of passing references in Josephus and one in Tacitus; notably, neither Josephus nor Tacitus had been born at the time Jesus is assumed to have died, so they're relying on… something. But there's no extant written record of Jesus from before them.
But again, there's a difference between saying that there was a guy named Yeshua who lived in the early years of the common era and saying that the guy Jesus described in the Christian bible actually existed.
You really can't dismiss the ENTIRE bible as having no historical value when almost every single major event in is verifiable through other sources. Well you can if you want to make the stupid, inane statement that Jesus did not exist. Other that that, you are basically stuck with there was some huge conspiracy that drove people from across the entire ancient world to write about their interactions with this one man in a manner that tend to verify the others. That seems highly unlikely....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
"Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure"
"The Christ myth theory, which developed within the scholarly research on the historical Jesus, is the view that "the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology", possessing no "substantial claims to historical fact".[19] Alternatively, in terms given by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, "the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity."[20] Virtually all biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted,[7][17][21] and in modern scholarship, the Christ myth theory is a fringe theory and finds virtually no support from scholars"
Not surprising, that Nieporent espouses fridge theories.
I don't know what you guys are even arguing about. As far as I can tell, you agree: there was a Jewish guy named whatever Jesus is translated from and who likely formed the basis of the biblical mythology. Where is the disagreement? Do you have some DNA records demonstrating that in place of a Y chromosome, Jesus had a midichlorian?
The abolition of slavery is more than "a minor footnote in history," of course. Your bigotry speaks for itself, but I like to speak for it too.
You darn well know that I was mentioning the events in Texas, not the overall abolition of slavery. But, your selective reading is great if you want to stick your head in the sand...
Nobody believes that you would be just fine with Juneteenth if it were held on whatever you perceive to be the "correct" date. We know that from your defense of Christmas. If there's one thing we know for sure, it's that Jesus wasn't born on December 25, 0.
Your bigotry speaks for itself
As does your pathetic virtue-signaling in a vain attempt to convince others (and yourself) that you're not the sorry excuse for human being that you know yourself to truly be.
"My intent here isn't to denigrate Christians specifically"
You seem to be doing a pretty good job of it.
"Yes, unlike absolutely real holidays like "Christmas," which celebrates an arbitrary birthday of a fictional character"
There's more historical documentation of the existence of Jesus than quite a few other historical figures.
All words are made up.
My objection to Juneteenth is that it's aggressively historically ignorant. It is NOT the date on which slavery was abolished in America. It's just the date the last slaves in the Texas town where it was a local holiday until a couple years ago were freed.
The slaves in Delaware remained enslaved for another six months, until the 13th amendment had been ratified.
That little inconvenient detail is one that Juneteenth advocates seem absolutely determined to ignore, which is why I call the holiday aggressively historically ignorant.
Much like the "history" contained in the 1619 project.
Brett, as we’ve been through multiple times, you have zero business calling people historically ignorant (let alone aggressively so) when it is YOU who is the ignorant one. Time and time again you just don’t understand American history, and this time spectacularly so. If you take a break from your hatred of the historical profession (which you claim is because Bellelises but is almost certainly because despite your impressive level of arrogance you are extremely insecure about the fact that historians are smarter and more knowledgeable than you), you should read the Southern Past which talks about the long long history of Juneteenth in America, how it’s not just a local holiday, and why it became culturally significant.
And to further disprove your ignorant point here is actually video from a large Juneteenth celebration in Milwaukee in 1984.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ccfDoiDcSM
How is 1984 (sans the Orwell tinge) relevant to claims about 119 years before?
Because it demonstrates his claim that this was a “local holiday until a couple of years ago” is utterly false. It’s also relevant to demonstrate that the holiday grew organically over time so it doesn’t matter what the date is. While calling it aggressively historical ignorance he is demonstrating that he doesn’t actually know the first thing about the holiday.
I note you don't dispute the point that the last slaves were actually freed on a different date, some six months later. And THAT is the aggressive historical ignorance this holiday celebrates.
Oh, and was "Juneteenth" an actual official holiday in Milwaukee in the 1980's? People are free to celebrate anything, just throwing a party doesn't make something a holiday.
Cinco de Mayo is barely a holiday in Mexico, its not their Independence Day.
By LTG's logic, we should make Cinco de Mayo a federal holiday because people drink tequila on May 5.
No by my logic Brett and you just don’t understand Juneteenth, it’s history, and how it developed. You’re simply ignorant and proud of it.
No, I understand it's bad history, because of all the people who were still enslaved for another six months.
But you don’t understand how the holiday developed and the fact it spread organically from Galveston. Historical ignorance. As usual.
Yeah, yeah, I get it: I'm not supposed to regard an extra six months of slavery in Delaware as significant, because somebody wrote a book that sparked an ignorant fad.
You’re not supposed to insist that this holiday sucks because your opinion about Delewares history of slavery overrides everyone else’s.
Holidays are not times for exhaustive factual litigation.
We're not falling for it, Brett. If you had an abolition-of-slavery holiday in mind that you liked better, then ok. But you don't. You just don't like abolition-of-slavery holidays.
You're like a closeted gay guy making excuses for why each girl is fatally flawed in some silly way as cover for actually just not liking girls. Oh, she's got a mole on her elbow, can't have that!
I don’t need to because that is factually correct. Doesn’t make you any less historically ignorant. I mean you don’t really understand how the holiday developed.
“Oh, and was "Juneteenth" an actual official holiday in Milwaukee in the 1980's?”
Utterly irrelevant. You were dishonestly suggesting it was a local thing until a few years ago. That’s utterly false. By doubling down you’ve moved from ignorance to liar. Just admit you were wrong.
“People are free to celebrate anything, just throwing a party doesn't make something a holiday.”
Again utterly irrelevant. Government action doesn’t make something a holiday like you suggest in the previous sentence. Easter isn’t official. Neither is Halloween. You’re just mad you got caught in historical ignorance (again) and mad that Black people have something to celebrate.
America did not become independent until the Treaty of Paris was signed on September 3, 1783, some 7 years and 2 months after the DoI was signed. Does that make it "aggressive historical ignorance" to celebrate independence on July 4?
"America did not become independent until the Treaty of Paris was signed on September 3, 1783, some 7 years and 2 months after the DoI was signed."
That's strange. I guess the British should have simply ordered our military to stand down then, it would have been an easy win.
Don't confuse the day the British admitted we were independent with the day we became independent. It's like thinking that the Confederacy wasn't independent of the US for several years, just because Lincoln refused to admit it.
Or like us saying Taiwan governed mainland China until 1979.
Yeah, good example.
It's kind of like that, and the Confederacy was never independent of the U.S. (Not only did "Lincoln" refuse to admit it, but so did everyone else on the planet. Here's the entire list of countries that recognized Confederate independence: .) The Confederacy was as independent as CHOP was in Seattle a couple of years ago.
You’re obviously very virtuous. Your post prove it. Can you stop bring a dickhead now?
Based on your history, probably not.
You post about shit you don’t understand regularly. Pot, kettle and all that.
No. Because it’s not being a dickhead to point out to someone claiming everyone else is historically ignorant, that they actually are saying demonstrably false things.
Like I said, pot meet kettle.
Cool. I’m still correct.
Only politically.
Historically.
Was this before the looting and shooting?
Much like Kwanzaa, I suspect the most important factor at play was a sexy-sounding marketing label. I suspect it would be a lot harder to get enough societal momentum behind "National Emancipation Proclamation Day" or some such.
Goddam. Kwanza and Cinco de Mayo aren’t holidays. I don’t care about Juneteenth either way, but I live in Texas and around here it’s been a thing since the beginning of time.
I don’t understand all the caterwauling. If people celebrate it there’s no harm done to you.
The Republican Party of Texas yesterday declared them at the 2000 election was invalid. As part of their platform. Why worry about this shit when both of our major parties, including yours, are out in cuckooville?
Yeah, I know it's been a local holiday for a bit, and people who find it relevant are welcome to it. I was just talking about the sudden push to make it national/federal (a/k/a "one size fits none").
Similarly, if you find it inappropriate to discuss the national holiday schedule because some local political party said something you find off-color, it's a free country. But this particular post is about Juneteenth, so that might be why there are at least a few comments about it littering the thread.
It’s like MLK Day. And Veterans Day. The government takes off and nobody else does. Who cares?
I suspect we run in significantly different circles. In my highly non-governmental sphere, two out of those three (no guessing, now) are indeed taken off, accompanied by a healthy annual dose of fanfare, reverence, and virtue signaling.
Oh, and this isn't a "local political party saying something off color". This is the Republican Party in the largest red state in the country taking a full hit off of the Trump bong. The Dems are crazy dangerous because of their progressive infection. The Republicans are crazy because of Trump. This is a very large state party screaming out loud that they are imbeciles.
We need a new party in the worst possible way before the two we have destroy us.
a favored leftoid tactic is to say they don't care about something as a way to make it look like the opposition is overreacting to a trivial matter while moving heaven and earth to push it. Like they say why are republicans making such a big deal about LGBT when they are ones with the insitututes and the endowed professorships and multibillion dollar initiatives and raft of laws centering around it.
In reality leftoids care a great deal about pushing these neoreligious holidays and saturating the airwaves with their cult propaganda. Sure technically you could ignore omnipresent leftoid proselytizing (for now at least). But leftoids are always flipping out over momentary sightings of a cross so its only fair that people get a little annoyed over their cereal and coke drink shilling for social justice.
Yep, you can always be certain that a post from some guy that uses the word "leftoid" is going to be conspirational gibberish.
And the Continental Congress voted for independence on July 2, leading John Adam's to tell Abigail
Culture evolves organically and sometimes the dates that end up being culturally significant aren't the ones that you might have expected.
Allow me also to note my skepticism that you would, in fact, have no complaints about making, say, December 8 an end of slavery celebration.
"Allow me also to note my skepticism that you would, in fact, have no complaints about making, say, December 8 an end of slavery celebration."
Note away. Race cards dissolve if not regularly played.
You're not a racist, Bob. You're just an asshole.
Do you object to Christmas, too?
Or is this just more disaffected, obsolete, white male crankiness?
My objection to Juneteenth is that it's aggressively historically ignorant. It is NOT the date on which slavery was abolished in America.
And you have a similar historically based objection to Christmas also, I suppose.
Not to mention basing Easter on the lunar calendar.
Oh come.
All the whining about it being the wrong day is bullshit. It's just a way to object to there being a holiday to celebrate emancipation without being criticized for objecting.
Just admit it. You don't like the whole idea, and this is a "safe" way to object.
No one is fooled.
uneteenth is the most American holiday. No other day encapsulates American history and society quite like it
The specific moment in the past that spurred it seems relatively minor: General Gordon Granger announcing in General Order No. 3 that the slaves in Galveston were freed under the Emancipation Proclamation.
Shouldn’t a more momentous day have been chosen? Perhaps the date of the Proclamation itself. Or the passage of the 13th amendment. Or it’s ratification. Indeed, in the years following the civil war, the freedmen would recognize various dates as Emancipation Days to celebrate the end of slavery, and of course they were integral to the creation of Memorial Day, honoring the war dead.
How we got to a federal holiday for Juneteenth is almost as significant as the moment it commemorates.
Texas was settled by white settlers who eventually rebelled against Mexico and declared independence. A major motivation was to maintain the practice of slavery, which Mexico was abolishing. And indeed, the 1836 Constitution enshrined slavery in law, placed limits on its Congress’s ability to emancipate slaves, and indeed, limited the ability of owners to emancipate their own slaves.
By the 1830s, Southern views on slavery had shifted from those of many of the founders. It shifted from being seen as a necessary evil that would end eventually, to actually being a positive good, that needed to expand.
The ideas of Manifest Destiny that led to the Texas Annexation and the Mexican-American War were not just about fulfilling the imperial dreams of obtaining more territory for settlers, but was also part of the Southern desire to expand the institution of slavery.
The relationship between Manifest Destiny and slavery helped further the nation towards Civil War.
So that’s how there were slaves in a state called Texas to be freed on June 19 1865.
Freeing the slaves, didn’t just happen. It required force. Military force. The Union army had to forcibly bring the end of slavery and begin reconstruction.
Southern redeemer governments and organizations reclaimed public spaces and public memory to support the Lost Cause and white supremacy.
As Fitzhugh Brundage discusses in The Southern Past, black Americans had to create a parallel historical memory to acknowledge slavery and its end.
Juneteenth commemorations began to spread as part of this effort. It happened organically and overtime, to become a regional holiday in the South. More than simply a commemoration, it also served as a method to assert black political power, including the power to vote.
While the holiday subsided in some fashion during Jim Crow, it took on renewed significance during the Civil Rights Movement. By then millions of black Americans had left the South and brought traditions like Juneteenth to the forefront. Far from simply being a regional holiday, it was celebrated all over. Here for example is a Juneteenth celebration in Milwaukee in the 1980s.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ccfDoiDcSM
In addition to being part of black culture for a long time, the holiday gained wider recognition as black people gained prominence in American culture and society. For instance, Black-ish popularized it for network television audiences.
It took on significance for the political classes in light of the protests across the country regarding how black Americans are treated by police.
Making Juneteenth a federal holiday, instead of doing any real reform, while significant for recognizing something black Americans created is also a good representation of how American politicians in the modern era prefer surface level solidarity with civil rights to actual reforms. And of course, even this modest recognition, sets off alarm bells to reactionary elements
To sum up we have a holiday that came about from slavery and empire, celebrating something that could only be accomplished with military force. It developed organically in a culture that struggled while being dominated by white supremacy. It took on renewed significance in the Civil Rights movement and spread beyond the regions it originated in. It was popularized further in part due to mass media. It became something that pandering politicians became aware of and enshrined into law as both a genuine thing to celebrate and an act of pandering while not doing anything more. And the American reactionaries are still mad
Doesn’t get more American than that.
You can write an essay of verbal diarrhea that simply recounts history with random quotes about any day. Doesn't mean it should be a holiday.
I’m sorry you don’t want to be educated or celebrate the end of slavery. That must be rough for you.
Why aren't you pushing us to celebrate Galileo day more? You must hate science and think the sun revolves around the earth.
What about Hypatia Day? What do you have against groundbreaking women scientists?
I don't see you talking about Thomas Crapper Day that much. So I guess you don't think modern sanitation is a big deal and would rather have billions dying in agony and swimming in feces.
Are any of those three days associated with American history?
Why is the proclamation by an obscure Union general in South Texas more relevant than the Emancipation Proclamation or the ratification of the 13th Amendment or the death of 300,000 plus Union soldiers when it came to ending slavery?
So you would support a holiday celebrating the Emancipation Proclamation?
Sure you would.
We already have that day off. It's called New Years Day,
No, it would make no sense to celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation, for the same reason it doesn't to celebrate "Juneteenth", plus the deliberately partial application.
The holiday should be celebrating ratification of the 13th amendment.
Lol. Imagine thinking that you know how to celebrate the end of slavery better than the actual freed slaves and their descendants. The stunning arrogance.
Yeah, thinking we should celebrate the actual end of slavery when celebrating the end of slavery, it's crazy!
Or, you could just not get persnickety that people are celebrating the end of slavery on the wrong day.
It looks more like you, and many others here, are looking for some kind of objection but don't want to really get into why the end of slavery doesn't comport with your partisan preferences.
Thinking that you — a middle aged white guy living in the 21st century — should get to decide when blacks celebrated their own liberation in the 19th century, is pretty crazy, yes.
If nobody had ever thought of this before, and then in June 2021 someone said, "Hey, the country should commemorate abolition," you could argue, "Well, the day the 13th amendment passed is most logical," sure, that's fine. But that's not what happened. This celebration arose organically, and then in June 2021 someone said, "Hey, we should make it an official federal holiday."
They want to go off on their own and celebrate whatever on some random day, fine, they don't need my permission, and my opinion, though I'm entitled to it, is irrelevant.
Once the decision is made to make it an official governmental holiday, though, yeah, my opinion matters as much as theirs does, and nothing obligates me to remain silent if I think the choice of day is stupid. Because I am, after all, no less a citizen than they are, and it is OUR government, not just theirs.
If you want to play the ‘in our government all opinions should get equal weight’ then you are still wrong. You got outvoted.
You can have your opinion of course, but so far your reasoning is really weak, based on superficial nonsense. Like you are angry and haven’t quite hit a palatable reason why.
This isn't anger, Sarcastr0. It's eye rolling. The whole thing is so stupid, picking a day six freaking months before slavery ended to celebrate the end of slavery on.
Thinking that you — a middle aged white guy living in the 21st century — should get to decide when blacks celebrated their own liberation in the 19th century, is pretty crazy, yes.
That's some Sarcastr0-level dishonesty right there. Look, I have no objection at all to Juneteenth (or any other alternative) being celebrated, including officially. But your mischaracterization of the issue as being one of "a middle aged white guy" deciding when "blacks celebrate their own liberation in the 19th century" is weapons-grade bullshit, and you know it. The issue at hand is the declaring of Juneteenth as an official federal holiday...you know...for everyone.
You've always been lacking in integrity, but lately you've gotten really sloppy and pathetically obvious about it.
Holidays don't need to line up with dates. Does President's Day? July 4? Christmas (as discussed below)? Labor Day?
Nobody cares.
Which is why I find those caring about this one to not have a lot of credence.
How is any date more American than July 4th? There's a better argument for July 2nd than June 19th.
Independence Day while significant was top down in many ways. Not bottom up like Juneteenth. And it isn’t necessarily the product of so many different aspects of American history in the way Juneteenth is.
Your willful ignorance knows no bounds.
What am I ignorant about? Seriously enlighten me? Are you saying I’m ignorant of Juneteenth (I’m demonstrably not)? Or Independence Day? (Again false) or American history? (Again false)
If you’re going to use an insult, at least make it accurate.
Yeah, July 4 takes care of all independence in America. What kind of madness would it be to celebrate another day involving independence?
Don't know if you are an attorney, but if you are your briefs must drive judges crazy. Throwing shit in every direction in the hopes some will stick.
Long posts are boring especially in your case.
I am. And this isn’t throwing shit in every direction, it’s detailing the history of Juneteenth and why it’s uniquely tied to American history in more ways than one. I’m sorry that reading is difficult for you.
I pity any judge forced to read your briefs and the clients who have to pay for them.
Jokes on you everyone I work with thinks I’m a good writer.
Spoken like a true poseur. Government lawyer or NGO?
Quit with the personalized speculation.
It’s not relevant, and it can lead to doxxing.
Who made you web-master?
FYI LTG had no problem with this and answered below.
See EV's post on ass-hat; that's you.
Got no power, just saying.
LTG rising to your bait doesn't make it less bait.
Stick to name calling and racism; you're better at those.
Do you have any self awareness?
Seems like you're projecting.
Calling out criminals and fraudsters is not racism.
Racism is the shield of incompetent people used to deflect their incompetence.
And if St George of Floyd had dined in October 80% of the country still wouldn’t know what Juneteenth was.
If you can believe anything that comes from that moniker, s/he's a recent law school grad. It's not clear whether any firm has yet opted to actually pay money to increase their hot mess quotient, but most actually expect young associates to work so perhaps we can draw a reasonable conclusion from the prolific pointless posting pattern.
Government lawyer. And I though you muted me?
Yes, the only thing lawyers do is write briefs.
You'd you plagiarize this wall of text from?
Me. I wrote it this afternoon. I’m sorry that it’s difficult for you to believe that I might have compels thoughts on the nature of the holiday and it’s place in American history.
*complex
LTG: I'd take a number of issues with your characterizations of American History...
"A major motivation of the [Texas Revolution] was to maintain the practice of slavery, which Mexico was abolishing."
Nonsense. The central reason for the revolt was Santa Anna's overthrow of the Mexican Constitution of 1824 (which had devolved much of the governance of the nation to the states in a republican form), substituting autocratic, dictatorial, and centralized rule from Mexico City. Texas was only one of FIFTEEN Mexican states that rebelled....and its leadership's central demand was not preserving slavery or seeking independence, but a return to the prior republican form of governance. The only difference between Texas and the rest, was that they managed to defeat Santa Anna's war of re-conquest.
"By the 1830s, Southern views on slavery had shifted from those of many of the founders. It shifted from being seen as a necessary evil that would end eventually, to actually being a positive good, that needed to expand. "
I'd strongly disagree that there was any real shift. While a number of founders talked a good game of viewing slavery as an evil... Almost none *acted* on these claims. Take for example, Jefferson...who wrote a great deal about it's evils. Until his friend from the Revolution, Polish Count Tadeusz Kościuszko, entrusted him with money and proceeds from his land in the U.S in his will. to free and educate slaves, including Jefferson's own, And suddenly Jefferson engaged in a vast amount of hemming-and-hawing-and foot-dragging....that continued to his death. The 3/5th compromise and the lack of any mention of the word "slavery" in the US Constitution demonstrated the fixity of purpose of Southerners in continuing the institution even back in the founding days.
“Nonsense”
Not nonsense. I didn’t say it was exclusive. Just major. It’s evident from the Texas Constitution and other sources from the time.
Second paragraph: the shift in rhetoric and views is evident. Read Howe and Wood on this subject.
Major, as in not a factor at all.
The guy you're referring to knows Texas history. You apparently don't. And yet, with the smugness typical of progressives you don't let your ignorance of the facts lessen your certainty. Arrogance and ignorance are not an appealing combination.
Major, as in not a factor at all.
Completely untrue. Read Howe.
Yep. It's very American to center everything around the racial obsession. It's one of our original sons. American "reactionaries" who'd rather not, are somehow the bad guys.
I don’t understand the animosity toward this holiday, having had it celebrated around me for 50 years without suffering and harm at all, but you’ve completely jumped the shark with this post. You have a knack for out extreming your opponents.
There’s no way that a holiday that is celebrated by less than 20% of the population is the “most American holiday”. That’s just silly.
I don't have any particular animosity about it, aside from the inconvenient bank/postal holiday. I just consider it silly for historical reasons, (Celebrating ratification of the 13th amendment would at least have national significance.) and find the details of it's sudden adoption a bit odd.
There’s nothing extreme here. Just detailing the history and how it ties together so many aspects of American history in a compelling way.
Nice piece. Here is what William Cushing, chief justice of Massachusetts and one of the original members of the U.S. Supreme Court, said of the effects of the American Revolution:
But whatever sentiments have formerly prevailed in this particular or slid in upon us by the example of others, a different idea has taken place with the people of America, more favorable to the natural rights of mankind, and to that natural, innate desire of Liberty, with which Heaven (without regard to color, complexion, or shape of noses/features) has inspired all the human race.
Hey, don't forget to partake of the Junteenth Day Sales at your local CVS, Walgreens (if you can find one) or other retail outlet where Black celebrants receive a 100% discount as reparations.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
I don't know, why don't you tell me what you think is wrong with me?
Most likely you're just a troll. You could also be a racist. Or, likely, you're a racist troll.
I don't remember asking you. Who is the troll?
It's endlessly amusing that parsing the endless stream of videos like this and this is apparently the ONLY appropriate time for us to be color blind....
What conclusion do you think we should be drawing from those videos?
Hey hey hey, it's Sarc playing dumb day! Real slow now:
1. OP was labeled as "racist" for the only-controverisial-to-ostriches proposition that looting demographics... well, ain't exactly proportional to population demographics.
2. Those videos (and scores more freely available to us all) amply support that proposition (again, for those whose proverbial salary does not depend on not understanding it).
3. If you have a cache of videos somewhere that you believe balances things out, post 'em up.
4. If you don't, take your trolling down the road.
Thought so.
Anecdotes to support the idea that black people are generally robbing stores today.
This is not something you can support with random youtube videos.
But you aren't looking for proof, you seem more wanting to justify and spread your bigotry.
What, no raft of counterexamples to show my unfair cherry picking?
Thought so.
You don’t think here are videos of white peoples robbing stores?
If you are arguing only black people rob stores, that might call for a counterexample. Otherwise, you are just deep into racism and don’t care what words mean.
I'm sure there's a non-zero amount out there somewhere, though I specifically went searching before I posted my original comment to get a rough sense of the proportion and didn't readily unearth any.
I'm exceptionally happy that gets me well past population proportions. If you think I'm way off, the invitation stands to provide even a whiff of support. But we know you won't. Because you can't. The numbers just aren't there.
And that's why feeble bleating about WACEism is all you have: reality is just too inconvenient.
You're taking anecdotes and treating them like statistics.
I'm offended on both substantive and methodological levels. It's not just bigotry, it's bad science.
You can call them anecdotes all you want, but that doesn't change the bottom line: You have nothing material on the other side of the ledger. And you know that.
SWAG and back-of-the-napkin of course aren't perfect, nor are they intended to be. But they're certainly useful as directional measures. And when those directional measures are so badly against you, wailing about lack of perfection is just a sad distraction.
But hey, if you're so offended, belly up to the bar and show us how to do it right. Too afraid of what the answer would be?
It's not a leger.
You're not doing accounting, you're doing confirmation bias.
It's not just imperfect, anecdote as evidence is actively harmful to actual useful inquiry.
The way to do it right is to do statistics, not find videos on youtube that agree with you monstrous worldview and insist others meet you in the dumbass anecdote arena to play your ignorant game.
Ignorance and bigotry go hand in hand. That you're so proud of it is a helluva show. You're too dumb to be even consider you could be wrong, much less be ashamed.
May you always be outvoted.
That's some mighty stellar table pounding, friend. The fact that you're trying so desperately to shift a discussion about objective reality into one of subjective opinion shows just how much the objective reality scares the stuffing out of you.
Look, we're all adults here. It's not like there isn't a huge vested interest in liberal academia to present some sort of structured evidence that makes this problem go away. If reality had been shown to be significantly different than that which routinely meets our eyeballs, you'd simply and straightforwardly present that rather than cowering behind invective.
And if candidly acknowledging my nose in front of my face rather than inventing super-sophisticated-sounding ways to obscure its existence is a "monstrous worldview," we've officially reached Orwell-blushing territory.
Now get back to your latest episode of "Red Is the New Green."
No difference from your post here and larfing about chimping out on reddit.
Is there an English translation available?
Lol. Something tells me you know the term.
Actually and most curiously, you're the only one in this discussion who just happens to be intimately familiar with the weirdo subculture you're trying to pin on me.
Sorta reminds me of Atkenburg78's obsession with the nether regions.
Nah, I'm just the only one who isn't lying about it.
https://nypost.com/2022/01/25/michael-rapaport-films-alleged-shoplifting-at-nyc-rite-aid/
I for one am truly mystified why Orrin doesn’t post here much anymore. Finest conservative legal blog online today!
If there is anything a Volokh Conspiracy fan hates more than genuine libertarian content from Prof. Somin, it's content from Prof. Somin that chafes against white nationalism, white supremacy, and general conservative-Republican bigotry.
Fortunately, in modern America, this problem is nothing that replacement will not solve.
So carry on, clingers . . . so far as your betters permit, and until replacement.
Culture wars have consequences . . . and winning is glorious!
Took you a while to jump in, but you never fail to disappoint with your dipwad commentary.
Carry on dohtard.
Bumble, take a break. Seriously, give it a rest.
You're basically Behar's understudy by now.
Did I exceed the super secret , double probation post limit?
Yes, Somin is a pro-replacement Libertarian. He has a funny idea of freedom.
The Emancipation Proclamation was issued by President Lincoln in D.C. on January 1, 1863.
It was announced by General Granger in Galveston, Texas on June 19, 1865.
That was exactly 900 days later.
The distance from D.C. to Galveston is 1,442 miles.
That meant the news traveled at 1.6 miles per day, or about 1 ⅙ inches per second.
I don't know if that was news traveling. The area also had to be under military control in order to ENFORCE the EP. That may have take considerably longer than mere news of what President Lincoln had one in Washington.
News of the EC disseminated throughout the South encouraged Unionist efforts and slave revolts in areas not yet under Union military control.
That was kind of the point. It was a cynical military tactic.
I wouldn't celebrate Juneteenth because it wasn't the end of slavery in the US. I wouldn't celebrate the Emancipation proclamation, for much the same reason.
But ratification of the 13th amendment? THAT was worthy of celebration.
During his famous debates with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln explained to the crowd: “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
Well, he was a republican, so - - - - - - - -
Sorry that Lincoln didn't live up to your initial hopes.
"He had to say that to get elected to make progress..."
"It's a slippery slope! Free them, and soon they'll move on to voting, owning land, marrying other races!"
If the context of objections is recast in modern terms. You know who you are.
"Abraham Lincoln, who issued the Emancipation Proclamation whose belated enforcement Juneteenth celebrates . . . "
Given that the emancipation proclamation freed no slaves in the United States of America, and by the time Texas got the word the war was over, the nation to which the proclamation supposedly applied did not exist, and that slavery was kept alive in northern states for a while after that date in June (looking at your state Joe), that statement is wrong.
The proclamation applied to the United States; there was no other "nation."
Riiiiight.
Whatever the Confederacy was, it was never a sovereign nation.
I think this "You're only a sovereign nation if your neighbor agrees and doesn't invade you" standard is a bit problematic; If the Confederacy had won, they'd have been a sovereign nation from the moment they seceded; Why not admit that they'd actually been a sovereign nation from that point anyway, and just accept that the rump US had invaded a neighbor and conquered them?
I'd prefer a definition of nationhood that's more focused on the character of what's going on, and less on whether your neighbor conquers you a few years later and gets pissy about demanding that people say you'd never been independent in the first place.
No one recognized them. Their Constitution was basically just the US Constitution but with 'you can't abolish slavery' pasted in.
LARPing you're a nation and then shooting a lot of people does not make you a nation.
"I'd prefer a definition of nationhood that's more focused on the character of what's going on, and less on whether your neighbor conquers you a few years later and gets pissy about demanding that people say you'd never been independent in the first place."
By that standard, the Confederacy was never a sovereign nation. You've been consuming too much Lost Cause bullshit. I'd suggest that this diet has served to scramble your brain but that would be presumptive.
I am, in fact, quite happy their cause lost, though I sometimes wonder if we might be a freer country today if we'd kicked them in the asses to aid their leaving, instead of dragging them back in. Or perhaps treated them more like Nazi Germany, instead of insisting on reintegrating them into the US, enabling them to influence and then for a long while dominate our domestic politics.
But I see no point in asserting that a group of states with their own government and military, that went toe to toe with the US for several years, was not an "independent country". This seems to be treating "sovereignty" as though it were a magic word, rather than an objective state.
Brett, there is no objective standard of 'now you're a state.' They raised a flag, dressed up, and killed people, but couldn't even get England interested during a cotton famine.
The state based on slavery never came to be, just some a-holes tried real hard.
"The proclamation applied to the United States; there was no other "nation."
But it did not apply to the 4 states in the Union that had slaves. So, no, it was not applied to the USA as, Constitutionally, Lincoln lacked the power to do so.
Even though they lost the war, the CSA was, for all intents and purposes, a separate "nation". DC had somewhere in the neighborhood of zero authority.
I appreciate what you are saying, Prof. Somin, but I always thought that, paradoxically, the American Revolution also indirectly caused racism to be particularly virulent in the United States.
How do you square "All Men Are Created Equal" with slavery? By positing that the enslaved group is sub-human. Helped in this case by the fact that they are a different skin color and have other different physical features. You can even posit that they are a different "race" and create all kinds of pseudo-scientific theories to support it.
European countries seem to have had less racism, although that might be a function of not having large racial diversity until very recently. The countries with large empires, notably Britain and France, did have some of the same kind of racial theorizing to justify colonialismm and seem to have more racism today than other European countries.
This is just my impressions, FWIW.
I suppose this depends on your definitions of "less" and "racism" to a degree, but this seems unlikely. Ask a French person (of any race) what they think the odds are of a black person being elected president.
Yeah...talking about race less doesn't actually mean you're less racist. Generally the opposite.
https://twitter.com/somegreybloke/status/897044283152269313/photo/1
Back in the day, your city-state lost the war, you became slaves. There was no subhuman aspect. You lost, sucks to be you.
Then came industrialization of slavery vs. Enlightenment. We need a meme to keep that off our industrial world-class processes. "Sux to be you" ain't good enough anymore.
How would one disentangle current-day racism in Europe from a literal religio-cultural war? They also generally use jus sanguinis rather than just soli, and so non-citizens can form a multigenerational second class with legal walls around immigrants. (Australia and New Zealand have similar problems, Australia notably within their borders as well as at the borders.)
This thread really has it all.
Lincoln was the real racist! Don’t the blahs already get Kwanzaa? Shoplifting argle bargle! WELL ACTUALLY this holiday should be some other day! WELL ACTUALLY this is just a regional holiday! Something something FEDERAL CLASS! Why no galleleo day hardy har har?
Truly, the huckleberries never disappoint. Bumble gets his purple star today.
Disaffected, obsolete, intolerant Republicans need a place to vent as they continue to lose the culture war. This blog is just the place for such whining.
Thanks for the star. Sorry you are upset by my lack of right think.
Celebrate this special day but remember that according to the social justice crowd the fight isn't over. Blacks are still "slaves" to white supremacists in America and another "holiday" hasn't changed anything.
What about my comment made you think I was upset? Morbidly fascinated is closer
Is your contention that Lincoln was not a racist?
As compared with the long line of his predecessors, many of whom were merely the facile and servile instruments of the slave power, Abraham Lincoln, while unsurpassed in his devotion, to the welfare of the white race, was also in a sense hitherto without example, emphatically the black mans President: the first to show any respect for their rights as men
...What Mr Lincoln was among white men, How he bore himself towards them, I do not know, but this much I am bound to say, that he was one of the very few white Americans who could converse with a negro without any thing like condecension, and without in anywise reminding him of the unpopularity of his color
I have said that President Lincoln was a white man, and shared the prejudices common to his countrymen towards the colored race. Looking back to his times and to the condition of his country, we are compelled to admit that this unfriendly feeling on his part may be safely set down as one element of his wonderful success in organizing the loyal American people for the tremendous conflict before them, and bringing them safely through that conflict. His great mission was to accomplish two things: first, to save his country from dismemberment and ruin; and, second, to free his country from the great crime of slavery. To do one or the other, or both, he must have the earnest sympathy and the powerful cooperation of his loyal fellow-countrymen. Without this primary and essential condition to success his efforts must have been vain and utterly fruitless. Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible.
Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined.
Just finished up my fried chicken, strawberry punch, and devil's food cake. Not a bad holiday, I have to say.
I think the abolition of slavery is a pretty good choice for recognition for a national holiday, I just don't think Juneteenth is really the best day for that.
Also it doesn't help that the first I ever heard of Juneteenth was when I moved to Milwaukee for college, and every single year parts of the black community would riot on Juneteenth.
And let's remember the soldiers' lives that it took to free the slaves (3% of the Atlantic slave trade) in the U.S. Civil War. Was any other full-scale war ever fought to free slaves? Or was it a war about states rights? With the decline of Western Civilization influence, slavery and subjugation of women will make a comeback in various parts of the world. "Slavery was only abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962 (at the insistence of Great Britain), and there are numerous indications that it continues today — including this ad in Saudi paper (which I saw thanks to LGF) offering a 1991 Dodge for a “female servant” from Sri Lanka or India.
And why not? It’s taken for granted in the Qur’an (see Suras 2:178, 2:221, 4:92, 5:89, and many more), and that is the foundation of Saudi society. It is also a cornerstone of the oppression of non-Muslims dhimmis, who throughout history have often been enslaved or treated as slaves by their Muslim overlords." https://www.jihadwatch.org/2003/11/slavery-in-saudi-arabia
Blacks have spent the last 60 years showing just why the founding fathers were right.
"promote left-wing identity politics"
It was pretty obvious that the sudden promotion and federalization of obscure Juneteenth, in the wake of the Fentanyl Floyd insanity, was designed to promote left-wing identity politics and left-wing historical narratives. Maybe a bit less obvious, it celebrates destruction of decentralized self-government and federalism and the reversion to the ancient historical norm.
It is true that the "universalist principles of the Founding" saw a degree of actualization with the abolition of slavery. That's worth celebrating. So I have no complaint with that. Juneteenth was a very poor choice for that occasion, though (or a good choice if you had other propaganda objectives, which they did). Better choices would include the passing of the 13th amendment.
The Lost Causer is sad about Juneteenth. Surprise surprise.
Continue to live on the margins of actual discussion.
The mistake wasn't in abolishing slavery. The mistake was thinking that blacks could coexist with whites in a white society.
"Far from retarding the abolition of slavery, the Revolution actually accelerated it. ...."
This seems far from certain. There were Emancipation Proclamations made during the Revolution, just the same as the later war measures. Apparently, if the Revolution failed, then slaves in the States would have been freed about 90 years sooner. And then maybe we'd be celebrating a Juneteenth about that event.
Everyday is a good day to celebrate freedom ... and the defeat of Democrats!
Juneteenth celebrations in Chicago:
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1538697774979481600
Seems like a normal weekend in Chicago.
What is the explanation for the Volokh Conspiracy's cultivation of such a concentrated pool of bigots -- racists, gay-bashers, misogynists, xenophobes, Muslim-bashers, white nationalists, white supremacists -- in its audience?
Is there a reasonable explanation that does not involve a disturbing level of bigotry among the Volokh Conspirators in general?
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit.
Juneteenth is important because it reminds us that slavery continued in Union states -- Kentucky and Delaware, in particular -- long after all southern states had received Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation: without Juneteenth, we might forget that presidents (and fringe academics) have the power to create and perpetuate myths.
Juneteenth also puts the hypocrisy of Union rallying cries in sharp focus, allowing all to reflect upon those Union citizens still enslaved long after Sherman's soldiers raped southern women, both black and white, and burned the homes and crops necessary for the survival of newly freed slaves.
Was that for Confederate veterans?
MLK. Well known Republican, Hiney.
"their ancestors"
People who died before 1865 didn't think it was obscure?
Oh it’s just so tiresome.
We got a whole much of relatively new/boosted sjw holidays. Why not start some other categories to go along with it?
It would be nice if those words occasionally included a lick of sense, but life is full of disappointments.
They do. Sorry I understand the history better.
Well okay we have 1 day for labor and two days for veterans. Does social justice really deserve ~100x and counting more celebration than these groups
Every June?
This is the second time Juneteenth has been a national holiday. So all two of them?
Hmm,
I don't see how a novel written in the 1950s and published in 1999 is evidence of former slaves celebrating Juneteenth 150 years ago.
Perhaps you meant to link to a different page about the holiday, not the novel.
A simple yes or no would do. I asked because I don't know and it would seem that you do.
Why always playing games?
I wish you wouldn't do this. The usual suspects here are not libertarians and do not call themselves such. Brett is one of the few who do, and I'm pretty sure he even calls himself a former one.
Just because Reason is a libertarian publication does not mean that people who show up to shitpost comments on a blog hosted there identify as libertarians.
Libertarians are all for celebrating whatever holidays you want. It is the government enforced holidays, with government workers taking yet another paid holiday, that is anti-libertarian.
...and what doe you "identify" as?
This right-wing blog calls itself libertarian. No mention of conservative. That lie sets the tone.
I'm still a "l"ibertarian, I'm merely a former "L"ibertarian.
From now on Queenie should be Rhoid.
I don't remember many libertarians (or 'libertarians') complaining about other federal holidays.
I don't hear all that much complaining about this one, either.
Did you percance read some of the comments on this post
That's mostly just contrariness, and little of it is based on libertarianism. Which was kind of DN's point.
Google Ngram "Juneteenth"
Basically an unsurprising blip right about the end of the Civil war, followed by decades of nothing. A tiny bit of activity from the 1920's through the '80's, then a lot of activity for about 15 years.
I think it's quite believable that former slaves in Texas did celebrate "Juneteenth" back then, but it was indeed a local thing for better than a century.
The difference is Columbus kicked off 500 years of European expansion, which would result in the birth of the first truly free nation since (arguably) the Greeks or Romans. Juneteenth is a general showed up in a backwater town, found the inhabitants were not following the law, and enforced the new law.