The Volokh Conspiracy
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White House Consults with Law Professors in Anticipation of Dobbs Ruling (Updated)
The Biden Administration is apparently considering a range of responses should te Supreme Court overturn Roe v. Wade.
The Biden Administration is reportedly considering a range of executive actions to safeguard abortion rights if, as anticipated, the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade in the Dobbs case this term. The New York Times reports that the White House has been consulting with various legal academics on various steps the Administration could take. The White House also disclosed that Vice President Kamala Harris met with a group of constitutional law professors on Tuesday.
From the NYT:
Some of the ideas under consideration include declaring a national public health emergency, readying the Justice Department to fight any attempt by states to criminalize travel for the purpose of obtaining an abortion, and asserting that Food and Drug Administration regulations granting approval to abortion medications pre-empt any state bans, the officials said. . . .
No executive order can re-establish a constitutional right. It would take an act of Congress to restore a national legal standard barring states from outlawing abortion, and proponents currently lack sufficient votes in the Senate, where Republicans can filibuster such a bill. But Mr. Biden has signaled that he wants to move on his own.
Most of these strategies would require particularly aggressive assertions of executive power. As noted, one idea is to declare that FDA regulations would preempt state laws limiting access to abortifacient drugs. When the Bush Administration took a similar view of FDA authority (albeit to constrain tort litigation, not state regulations), many progressives and libertarians objected on the grounds only Congress may preempt state laws. Now the shoe could be on the other foot.
Laurence Tribe, a Harvard Law School professor who has consulted with [the White House], said in an interview that while he did not want "to pour cold water on people's peaceful reactions to impending disaster," some of the proposals the White House was being lobbied to consider were unwise and implausible extensions of executive power.
"It would take attention from the things that are really relevant — that the Supreme Court is out of control and we ought to be very critical of it — and shift the criticism to the president for responding in kind and doing things that are every bit as ungrounded in the Constitution as the court's overruling of Roe will be," Mr. Tribe warned.
According to the NYT report, the Administration is weighing the trade-off between modest actions that would be legally defensible, and bold, symbolic actions with questionable legal authority.
In the past, Mr. Biden has adopted a position that his legal team warned him was unlikely to stand up in court, betting that the political benefits of his executive actions outweighed the legal risks. In August, as House Democrats urged him to reverse course on letting a pandemic-related ban on evicting renters expire, Mr. Biden unilaterally extended the measure.
The move won praise from the left, at a moment when he needed to hold his coalition together in order to advance his legislative agenda. But while Mr. Biden's decision bought a little more time for pandemic assistance funds to reach renters, its practical impact was limited because courts, as predicted, swiftly struck it down — and his critics accused him of lawlessness.
Another idea being discussed is using federal enclaves as sanctuaries of a sort.
One calls for Mr. Biden to invite abortion doctors to work at federal enclaves, like military bases, inside states that criminalize abortion. State prosecutors lack jurisdiction in such zones, so the federal government handles crimes there, and it is not always clear whether criminal laws at the state level apply.
Doctors might still face challenges to their state medical licenses. And while the Justice Department under Mr. Biden could decline to pursue charges as a policy matter, control of the department could flip in the 2024 presidential election, and federal prosecutors could then charge people with crimes, like abortion, retroactively.
It is certainly true that this sort of strategy would be dependent upon Democratic control of the White House, but the suggestion that federal prosecutors could charge people with crimes seems like a stretch. Abortion is not a crime under federal law. But perhaps facilitating the use of federal resources in this way would violate the Hyde Amendment and laws concerning the misuse of federal funds. [UPDATE: Federal prosecutors may enforce state law in federal enclaves under certain conditions, pursuant to the Assimilative Crimes Act, so that explains the language of the story.]
Another idea is to declare a public health emergency so as to enable doctors to practice across state lines so that doctors could facilitate abortions in states without fear of sanctions from state licensing authorities or other legal liability. This policy, too, could be reversed by a subsequent administration.
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Great to see there aren't more important problems like inflation/European-ish Gas Prices/Rampant Crime/Baby Formula Shortages, stumbling into a WW3 (or at least a WW2.5, because we all know Superpowers just sit around when other countries provide military support to their enemies)
I urge the Biden administration to put their heads together with Ivy law profs. They are so savvy and successful individuals.
Frankie. Those hearings will increase the hatred for Congress. They are good for the country. It is a display of really ugly and obnoxious people taking their revenge on a nation that mistreated them for being so ugly. Did you ever notice, Democrats are really ugly people.
There was an exception. I attended a Bernie rally. Several beautiful young women approached me and offered me cold water on a very hot day. They refused my offer to pay for it. I hoped God blessed them, even though I am atheist.
Frankie. You will like this. My database is starting. Next? Supermarkets and Emergency Rooms.
https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/coconut-creek-apartment-complex-wont-accept-rental-applications-attorneys/
A couple of decades ago, some doctors started refusing to take lawyers and their families as clients, if they were involved in chronic lawsuits against doctors.
If a medical group grossing $5 million has 3 lawsuits they are all upset. Any business grossing $5 million will have 400 lawsuits. Doctors are almost immunized, even in defendant judicial hellholes.
I would like to know a business group to speak to about the perfidy, the bunko, the toxicity of the most toxic occupation in the nation, 1000 times more toxic than organized crime. They can then decide if they wish to fight back. Tort reform is really weak. This criminal enterprise really needs to be crushed and restarted from scratch. It is the Inquisition 2.0 still totally mired in 1275 AD, and a disgrace.
I could help them with model legislation to take the fight to the enemy, and to basically eliminate it. They eliminated manufacturing, farming, the family, school discipline and education, free speech dissenting from Democrat orthodoxy, urban safety. It is time to eliminate them. One high road to really shrinking an enterprise, especially a toxic, criminal enterprise like the lawyer profession, the criminal justice system, and our tyrannical failed judicial system is to remove all immunities. Sue them into oblivion. See how they like it.
There should also be a direct action arm of this lawyer accountability movement to visit those who do not get the message.
"Great to see there aren't more important problems"
Killing babies is a liberal sacrament. Nothing is more important to them than abortion.
In other words, do everything to prevent abortion from being debated and regulated by the states where people can express their will at the ballot box. I don't think that's going to fly. Of course anything they do now may not matter anyway after this November.
DaveM — Let's have like principles for like cases. Abortion rights and gun rights for self-defense both regulated by the states. People free to travel among the states to take advantage of whatever rights they prefer. Each state gets to enforce its own laws against everyone within state boundaries, including travelers from other states.
I could endorse that. How about you?
Seems like there is a spectacular opportunity forming up right now to put to rest simultaneously two of the most contentious issues dividing the country. All that has to happen is compromise. And especially no overreach by the Supreme Court. To demand a different principle of decision for abortion than for guns would be a disaster. Taking that road risks outright defiance of the Court, and a collapse of its legitimacy.
Ready to sign up? What a relief it would be to get both of these perpetual irritants quietly settled.
I strongly support broad access to both abortion and guns. But that doesn't change the fact that one those rights is actually written in the constitution, and the other one isn't.
This. 100% this.
Noscitur, everything dependent on Heller is as free of explicit constitutional predicate as Roe is. Prior to Heller, the only gun right which had ever been an explicitly recognized federally protected right was the militia right. Otherwise, the argument for either alleged federal right—abortion, or armed self-defense—depends on history and tradition arguments, full stop.
There are not words in the Constitution to say otherwise. Both have a bit of history and tradition against them, but notably more in favor of them. They are as alike as peas in a pod.
They are alike in another way, too. If you look at either subject—abortion law, or gun law—you find that neither has been enforced alike nationally—although historically abortion has probably gone more uniformly unregulated than gun use, throughout most of the nation's history, counting its colonial history. The fact that different states feature different historical traditions for both kinds of right is a strong indicator that state-by-state treatment for one ought to be matched by state-by-state treatment for the other.
Spoken like someone who doesn't actually know anything about SCOTUS's 2nd amendment jurisprudence
Miller, while decided based on whether or not the weapon in question (a sawed-off shotgun) was useful for a 'well-regulated militia', was about personal ownership - it was most definitely treating the 2A as an individual right. It merely limited protected weapons for that individual right to those that could be of use in a militia.
Presser v Illinois, which ultimately held that the 2A was not (yet) incorporated against the states, also noted that the right to keep and bear arms was not infringed by forbidding militia parade/drill activities within a town. (That is, it is the individual right to keep and bear arms that the 2A protects). They also noted that, despite lack of incorporation, states could not impose such restrictions on gun ownership that they disarmed the populace. (ie, they validly separated a purpose of the 2nd - the ability to raise a militia - from the individual right protected).
Cruikshank, literally the first 2A case to reach the supreme court, was decided on non-incorporation grounds. It also held the 1A wasn't incorporated - Cruikshank is obviously rejected today. AFAICT, nothing about Cruikshank deals with the nature of the 2A right regarding group vs. individual right.
So literally the only times SCOTUS has even glancingly considered the 2A on group vs. individual, they've always considered it an individual right. (And it requires real contortion to pretend otherwise, since the guns in question would always be individually owned).
Totally irrelevant. You need to read Heller. Heller threw out all the Miller militia stuff and replaced it with... self-defense.
Self-defense is not an enumerated right. It's perhaps an emination... just like abortion. It can be revoked just as easily.
Self-defense doesn't need to be an enumerated right. It's a common law right. Whether it's with a gun or your fist doesn't matter, as far as the right to defend yourself goes.
If an individual has a right to own a gun, it follows that individual may use it to defend himself. The right of ownership is enough to establish the other under common law.
Sure, but with self-defense out of the picture constitutionally, you can"t own just any gun... even if 2A is an individual right. That was Stephen's point.
I disagree. The 2A guarantees a right to ownership and carry. (I think SCOTUS is mistaken in limiting it based on 'use' case, and the founders clearly thought it applied to things like cannon, since they were privately owned, even beyond the civil war).
Even if you made unlawful every possible use of guns (from hunting to self-defense), the 2A would still guarantee the right to keep and bear.
Well, your 2A jurisprudence is way out in the wilderness... all of the cases you cited earlier, and Heller, support restricting gun ownership based on use case.
Squirrelloid — Where did I question whether gun rights apply to individual ownership? That is a red herring. Scalia almost exhausted his renowned treasury of blather to distract folks with that one.
It is entirely possible to own a gun individually for the purpose of militia service (sort of the defining notion of having a militia, it seems to me), while having a state or federal government regulate as it pleases all other uses—including especially what kind of gun it can be, when and where you can carry the gun in public, and whether you must demonstrate your militia purpose by drilling under military discipline.
It is also possible that broader rights than those can be protected by state law. If so, that can happen without expanding federal law at all beyond the militia purpose. Anyone who wants the Court to declare such an expansion in the federal realm must necessarily make arguments founded on exactly the kind of reasoning used to establish and defend the right to privacy, including abortion.
Thus, the subject we discuss—the constitutional similarity of abortion law and gun law—depends on whether and to what extent each purpose claimed for either is explicitly enumerated. That means unmistakably authorized in plain language in the text.
Every conceivable gun right except a militia right is as unenumerated in the text of the Constitution as is the claimed right to privacy, or more narrowly, a right to abortion.
None of the cases you cite has added a syllable to the Constitution. Both kinds of rights encompass a range of distinct activities, both are defined by history and tradition alone—meaning case law or customary practice—and neither kind can claim superior constitutional provenance compared to the other.
The gun right isn't 'guns for self defense', it's owning (keep) and carrying (bear) guns for any lawful purpose.
The right to self-defense is an unenumerated (but well-established in common law) right in the constitution, because none of the founders would have ever imagined that government would ever strip it from their citizens. It's agnostic as to what implement is used in that defense - gun, fist, whatever.
If you have the right to own and carry a gun for lawful purposes, and self-defense is a lawful purpose, then you necessarily have the right to defend yourself with said gun. Well, self-defense is a lawful purpose, so the conclusion follows.
It's like you're arguing the constitution doesn't give you free speech with regard to lawn aesthetics, because the 1A doesn't specifically say free speech applies to lawn aesthetics. Nonsense.
Any lawful purpose lol! That's the whole point: there's nothing in the constitution preventing states from making deadly self-defense unlawful. Whoops! Now the second amendment doesn't apply.
You can say that self-defense is a common-law right all day, but it's not an enumerated right. It's on the same footing as abortion in that way.
Fine. That doesn't actually affect the gun right at all, though. The gun right is to 'keep and bear' arms. It's spelled out in the constitution.
If, by some miracle, self-defense was made unlawful, then you couldn't lawfully defend yourself. Period. (Even a fist can be deadly, so you can't distinguish 'deadly self-defense' from other self-defense until after you've successfully defended yourself).
I will agree that self-defense as a right is in the same position vis-a-vis the constitution as abortion. That's a totally separate right from the gun right, however.
Under current precedent (Heller), it affects gun rights a ton.
Also, as originally written, there's very little in the constitution preventing *states* from doing things. Certainly the BoR didn't apply to the states at the founding. It was only with the 14th amendment that the BoR guarantees were applied to the states.
Also: "Where did I question whether gun rights apply to individual ownership?"
You pretty much implied it here:
" the only gun right which had ever been an explicitly recognized federally protected right was the militia right"
If that isn't a claim that it's a group rather than individual right, then your point doesn't make any sense. (Or you really do mean to claim that there is no right to self defense generally).
Well, alcohol prohibition was a huge contentious issue that got “settled” nationally by constitutional amendment, but the “settlement” simply wasn’t accepted by everybody until the issue returned to local control. And after it returned to local control, it pretty much dropped off the radar screen. Local candidates might sometimes campaign based on their views on alcohol policy, but rarely state-wife ones and pretty much never national ones. The issue simply stopped becoming so devisive.
Sure there are differences. But it’s at least possible that returning things to local control may clear the national decks and enable politicians to let go and deal more productively with something else.
There's a twist though. The 21st amendment did more than simply repeal the 18th. It incorporated state alcohol laws into the federal constitution, effectively barring federal lawmaking on the subject. Alcohol is the one domain where supremacy runs backwards.
So it may not be enough simply to reinterpret the constitution's take on guns or abortion. Federal law would still apply, keeping the topics alive nationally. It would likely require a similar constitutional amendment to the 21st in order to fully transfer these issues to state purview.
Abortion rights and gun rights for self-defense both regulated by the states.
Allow me to introduce you to a document that you've clearly never read: https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/full-text
Hm... nope, no right to self-defense.
Stephen Lathrop
June.16.2022 at 12:29 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
DaveM — Let's have like principles for like cases. Abortion rights and gun rights for self-defense both regulated by the states. People free to travel among the states to take advantage of whatever rights they prefer. Each state gets to enforce its own laws against everyone within state boundaries, including travelers from other states."
2A like all of the BOR is incorporated against the states - unlike abortion which is not included in the BOR - other than that you have a good argument
Conservatives keep making the textual argument as if it made a difference. Ok, so the word abortion appears nowhere in the Constitution. So what? Nobody cares except you.
Here’s what you’re missing. Constitutional law is a bit like theology. You’ve got conservative Baptists who think theology begins and ends with what’s in the Bible. And you’ve got Episcopalians who think the Bible may be a good starting point but it’s not dispositive. But they’re both Christian and it’s ridiculous to claim otherwise.
Likewise, constitutional law has its Constitutional literalists, but its just silly to act as if that’s the only school of con law. It’s not. It’s probably not even the majority view among people who do con law for a living.
So if you think what is or is not in the text decides the issue, fine, you’re entitled to your opinion. But it is your opinion. Just please quit acting like it decides the issue for everyone else.
Ok, so the word abortion appears nowhere in the Constitution.
That of course is a dishonest paraphrase. He didn't say that abortion isn't protected because the word itself doesn't appear in the BoR.
So what? Nobody cares except you.
And the majority of the current SCOTUS justices, of course.
I wasn’t paraphrasing anyone. I was beginning my comment with what I think the argument boils down to. If you’re going to accuse other people of misquoting perhaps you can stop doing it yourself.
Yes, a current majority of the Supreme Court claims to be originalist. This too shall pass. You suffered through the Earl Warren court; we’ll make it through this court.
That said, it in no way changes my statement that a majority of con law professors most likely agree with me.
I was beginning my comment with what I think the argument boils down to.
But that's not the argument that was made, nor is that necessarily what an "abortion is not protected by the BoR" boils down to, so you simply assumed that was the argument, making your comment a dishonest paraphrase...whether you have the courage to admit it or not.
Yes, a current majority of the Supreme Court claims to be originalist.
So those whose opinions matter care, not just the poster to whom you're responding.
Wuz, anyone who’s been here any length of time understands you are incapable of ascribing honest motive to anyone you disagree with. It’s pretty much understood that you can be written off as an old crank who simply thinks anyone who disagrees with you is just lying. When was the last time you said, “I don’t agree with it but that’s a valid point”?
As for the Supreme Court, do not mistake this for a normal period in legal history. Your side got lucky with the timing of RBGs death and the election of Donald Trump. But the long term lesson of the Dobbs leak is if the court goes too far off the reservation it may find corrective measures being taken sooner than expected.
Hmm, like sending Assassins??? There oughta be a law!!!!!!!!!!
You have summed up the liberal position perfectly: “so what if the constitution does not have this right, we want it and can’t get enough people to vote for it so we will make up and pretend it’s in there!”
By contrast, you completely fail to understand the conservative position, like most on the left do.
The conservative position is not a simple “orthodox view” of a document. The conservative position is that society at our founding voted on and passed the constitution. In other words, we all agreed to the terms of the Constitution.
If you want to change those rules, you need to get the people to vote to change it. That’s how a government of the people by the people for the people works. It’s called democracy (although we are technically a democratic-republic).
If you try to change it by making sh!t up, you are acting as an authoritarian dictator at worst, or usurping the rights of the people at best.
In other words, you changing the constitution without the consent and vote of the people is THE threat to democracy.
That is the conservative position. The people decide.
So, if you’re concerned about threats to democracy, do you favor abolishing the electoral college and the two senators per state rule? Because if you don’t then your concern about threats to democracy is disingenuous at best.
If enough people vote to amend the Constitution to extinguish the electoral college and change the number of Senators for each State, yes.
Damn you and your Constitution!!!
I will remind everyone that the constitution amendment process does not permit any amendment that renders some states more equal than others in the senate.
It would be possible to have three senators per state, with every state always replacing one of its senators every two years [unlike the present, when each state sits out one senatorial election every three cycles], and I would like to see that, but unless we as a nation start over small states will always have as many senators as populous ones.
If liberals want to reduce the influence of small states at least in the electoral college, they can do that by making the House larger -- even without a constitutional amendment at all.
-dk
That’s a great point I never considered. Learn something new every day!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Apportionment_Amendment
The 27th amendment got ratified after a couple of centuries, so there's hope for the Congressional Appointment mendment!
-dk
Not certain, but I seem to remember in my "Classic Comics" "Meet Benjamin Franklin"
I think the whole point was to have a Chamber where the States had the same votes, almost like it was a "Compromise" or something.
Part of the "Compromise" was the members would be chosen by the State Legislatures and not the "People",
but that's just from my memory of a Comic Book from 50 years ago....
Frank
Actually, there are two ways you could accomplish it via Article V.
1) Two steps: First amend Article V to remove the language getting in the way, and only then abolish it.
2) One step: Amend the Constitution to transfer all the Senate's powers to the House, leaving the Senate a powerless ceremonial body that the states were guaranteed equal, but futile, representation in.
Approach 1 is more likely to be successful, because you could address some other problem at the same time, and pretend you weren't really going after the Senate.
I think left-wingers tend not to game out legitimate ways to get what they want while honestly complying with the Constitution, because they don't really view honestly complying with the Constitution as at all important. This somewhat handicaps them, because a lot of people do consider that important, and they lose them.
If enough people is so far above 50 percent that you can’t plausibly claim to support democracy. So the bottom line is that neither conservatives nor liberals care about democracy. It would be refreshing if your side would stop pretending otherwise.
Um, no. The People voted and approved the Constitution in a democratic manner. That includes the terms of the Constitution that specify the number of votes necessary to amend it.
If you want to change those terms so that we have a different for of government—-say, a “direct democracy” where 50%+1 vote wins—-get enough votes in our current system to change it.
That’s how democracy works.
The right supports democracy by adhering to the democratically-approved Constitution.
The left is trying to vitiate the will of the people as expressed in the Constitution ratified by The People because they can’t get enough votes.
Um yes. A so called democratic process that gives 400,000 Wyoming voters the ability to cancel 30 million Californians in the Senate is democratic in the same sense that Betty Windsor rules England - in name only. Under genuine democratic processes a New Yorkers vote counts as much as a South Dakotans. Whatever policy reasons you may think support the current system, it ain’t democratic.
The Constitution essentially casts conservative values in concrete. It’s like having a super bowl in which one team starts off with a free touchdown and the rule can’t be changed without their consent. Of course that team likes it; they get a free touchdown. But no one except team partisans would consider it a fair rule. Or blame the other team for doing end runs around it whenever possible.
Significantly more democratic than just suborning 5 Justices.
Nobody cares except the people who care about it? Thanks for that trenchant insight?
Whose opinion did you think I was expressing?
Joe Dallas — It's a better argument than you think. Gun rights for self-defense are nowhere mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. Just like abortion.
Of course, there are advocates for the notion of, "incorporated against the states," who insist that phrase means notably more than it says—that the incorporation process substantively broadened the previously recognized rights at the same time that it recognized them federally. If that includes you, then you ought to acknowledge the same broadening process applies alike to abortion.
In neither case can you point to any text to justify it. Doesn't mean that a living constitutionalist (like you?) is not free to argue for interpretative vindication of whatever rights he favors. After all, that's how the federal right to a gun for self-defense got into the Constitution, not that long ago. I am ready to support that on a state-by-state basis, in just the way Alito's draft says it will treat abortion. How about you?
“Shall not be infringed”. It doesn’t get any plainer than that. Hunting, self-defense, guarding against perceived tyranny, whatever the reason. “Shall not be infringed” holds more weight than anything else.
Robbing banks, killing kids, assassinating Supreme Court justices, the 2A protects it all!
Lol what a dork.
Those actions are illegal. None of them require firearms.
You get the cause and effect wrong
Just like you want to codify the procedure, abortion. But the debate is protecting life.
The Bill of Rights, does not enumerate rights. It protects rights that pre exist the constitution.
The debate has always been, Does the Federal Govt have the enumerated power to overrule powers that were always the States
Very elegantly stated.
Exactly. So states can make self-defense with a deadly weapon illegal, then it will no longer be a lawful purpose. Whole swaths of guns that are used primarily for self-defense, like handguns, could be banned.
Callahan — I get that pro-gun advocates judge it necessary to read the militia clause right out of the 2A. I cannot comprehend why they think no one will notice when they do.
There is no militia clause.
Answer the question. Did colonialist have guns?
Again, The BoR protected the people from a newly imagined Federal Government. The BoR Amended the Constitution, To give the people a promise of freedom from a Federal Government using its massive power to infringe on the freedom of the people. The Freedom of the people the write and live under the laws they wanted, not the law handed down from on high.
I believe there is an individual right, but there is no indication that the 2A has the intent you think it does, nor that the Constitution in general was drafted by people fearful of properly structured governmental power.
And before you cherry pick quotes, you'll need to look up Madison, Adams, Hamilton and Washington, etc.
nor that the Constitution in general was drafted by people fearful of properly structured governmental power
OK, I get there from some admitted inference.
The BoR was added after the constitution was approved by congress. So true, the drafters were not fearful of the newly imagined Federal Govt.
The BoR must of emanated from somewhere?
The Constitution was meeting strong resistance from the States, the people in the States. There were objections that people, and State assembly's raised.
That sent the Drafters of the Constitution, back to the drafting tables to allay those objections(fears)
Hence the BoR were specifically added to promise the people their power to live under they laws they agreed to, would not be overruled by this new federal Gvt. To assure that the collective power of the States would be superior to the Federal Govt.
I don't think you've framed it right. The BoR does everything you say, but is itself part of the 'properly structured governmental power.'
There is no indication that above and beyond the BoR, the Founders thought guns were the key to keeping their own government from enslaving them or something.
Stevie. What do you think about the Full Faith and Credit Clause? Should you have to get remarried or re-divorced if you move to another state? Should you have to apply for a gun permit if you move to NYC with one from South Carolina?
Sure, I'm onboard for "like principles for like cases". I'm not convinced yet that abortion rights and gun rights for self-defense are alike in the way they would need to be to qualify for equal treatment, however.
They are somewhat alike in that neither is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. But whereas abortion is never mentioned at all, gun rights most certainly are. True, the use of "guns for self-defense" is not called out explicitly, but the Constitutional prohibition regarding private gun ownership is a blanket statement. Arguably, the prohibition extends to any legitimate use of a personal firearm, including self-defense.
I'll take your word for this, I guess, but personally I don't see the connection. It's not immediately obvious to me why using a gun to fend off an attacker is linked with the legal killing of my children as long as they are still living in the womb.
Were that it was that easy.
One suggestion previously made would be to pass a federal law making it illegal for states to ban any pharmaceutical which may legally be delivered by the Post Office. Presumably Democrats could get that one through congress, with at least Collins and Murkowski voting to suspend the filibuster on a one-time basis.
I suppose women might have to get delivery at the Post Office, open the package, and take the pills right there, or be criminally vulnerable outside. What a mess.
One suggestion previously made would be to pass a federal law making it illegal for states to ban any pharmaceutical which may legally be delivered by the Post Office. Presumably Democrats could get that one through congress, with at least Collins and Murkowski voting to suspend the filibuster on a one-time basis.
I suppose women might have to get delivery at the Post Office, open the package, and take the pills right there, or be criminally vulnerable outside. What a mess.
What are you smoking?
So you can murder someone in a post office, too, and get away with it as long as it isn't one of the post office workers?
Or they could just have their "Baby Daddy" kick them in the stomach, like in the "old days"
Don't get mad at me, I've never kicked a woman in the stomach, unlike Sleepy's son.
Frank "Supports (other peoples) Babies"
Lord you people are sick.
And Mengele is at least as sick as any of them.
"suspend the filibuster on a one-time basis"
Myths never die.
You can't suspend suspend the filibuster on a one-time basis, suspend it once on a substantive law issue, its gone.
Dems are going into the minority, there will be a new found respect for the filibuster.
With the Democrats going into the minority, the Republican leadership of the Senate will be desperate to retain the filibuster. It's normal use during Republicans Senates is to prevent conservative measures from coming to a vote, exposing RINOs who would end up primaried. McConnell used it to make the Senate a killing ground for Republican bills originating in the House, during Trump's first two years.
Gotta agree with Brett. Progressives benefit from eliminating the filibuster, even when in the minority.
Progressives like action and conservatives like obstruction. It's in the names!
"women might have to get delivery at the Post Office"
what are these "women" are you talking about "birthing persons"
See? The end justifies the means. Twist any law, re-read any text so it fits the goal at hand, which is the reinstate a law that’s been proven unconstitutional. This is why liberals can never be trusted with the levers of power.
Tribe says the Supreme Court is out of control. I agree. See the Bostock opinion as an example. 5 people on the Court issue an opinion that makes a major societal change. One tragic result is that many of the youths taking puberty blockers and hormone therapy are sterilizing themselves.
The Biden Administration is reportedly considering a range of executive actions to safeguard abortion rights if, as anticipated, the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade in the Dobbs case this term.
If the court overturns Roe, what "rights" would Biden be safeguarding?
I'm a bit curious about that too. What other things are not prohibited by the (intentionally limited) federal government, but regulated by at least some states, where the federal government goes out of its way to enable people to exercise those purported rights or freedoms?
Guns would be the obvious example.
Obvious in what way? As far as I can tell, the only thing the federal government does to protect our encourage gun rights is to have federal courts apply the Second Amendment.
The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.
The lawful commerce act only protects legal products from abusive civil actions, though. Doesn't do you a bit of good if the state up and outlaws the gun.
Well, there IS the Firearms Owner's Protection act, which extends really limited protection to you when traveling from one point where your possession of a firearm is legal, to another point, while going through a jurisdiction where it would be illegal.
Really limited. Like, don't stop for gas or have a flat tire limited.
Setting aside that you seem to draw a distinction between actions of the federal judiciary to incorporate the Second Amendment against the states and those that the article notes the Biden group may be considering (a distinction which was not made in your question), how about the Tiahrt Amendment?
States have never been allowed to impose unconstitutional laws. I didn't think I needed to explicitly qualify my question with the usual presumptions about the US legal system.
What about the Tiahrt Amendment? It prevents the federal government from doing a certain thing. The analogous rule for abortion would be refusing to release information about abortion drugs or doctors, not inviting people to come to federal enclaves to break or evade state laws.
Isn't that what RFRA was trying to do?
No. RFRA was a reaction to the (federal) Supreme Court's ruling in Employment Division v. Smith, and it was ruled unconstitutional as applied to states (in City of Boerne v. Flores), so it only limits the federal government's own enforcement. (As a reaction to Flores, many states have since passed their own equivalents.)
Prohibiting criminalizing travel seems to be the only one with any obvious Constitutional merit, and even that's not a direct Federal power.
(I'll give it "implicit in the Commerce clause and that the States aren't meant to be prison camps".
Because if you can prohibit people leaving to do A Bad Thing, you can prohibit them leaving on any pretext - like "you don't get to leave with yuor delicious tax revenue".
No. The States must have free movement between them, or the Union is a joke. And the States do not own their residents/cirizens, such that they can criminalize their activities in other jurisdictions where the action in question is legal, "because you live here".)
I think the Court has previously identified freedom of travel as one of the "Privileges and Immunities" of citizens. So, no need for a commerce clause argument.
But wait, Brett.
The right to travel is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. It's a creation, if you will, of SCOTUS. (Or you might think, as I do, that it's not a "creation" at all, but just an inference from the document.)
So how can you claim the states can't abrogate it?
I suppose I could refer you to the 9th amendment.
Yes, there is actual Supreme court precedent that states can't interfere with the right to travel. Dred Scot, actually:
" For if they were so received, and entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, it would exempt them from the operation of the special laws and from the police regulations which they considered to be necessary for their own safety. It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went."
That's what Justice Taney thought were the rights of citizens within the US were. Several of the Justices dissented from the ruling, but none of them disputed this description of the privileges and immunities due citizens.
Is it your opinion, as the world's leading expert on constitutional law, that this dicta is Supreme Court predecent?
Still seems like something that would require an act of Congress.
Under current interpretation of the Commerce power, Congress could, if wanted to, exercise a great deal of power in this matter either to facilitate or restrict abortion as it prefereed.
But the President’s power to act alone without an act of Congress strikes me as much more limited. Some of the things being talked about as candidates for unilateral executive action strike me as anything from far-fetched to direct violations of federal law.
Biden is planning on spending the last two years of his administration as a dictator. He figures all he needs is enough Senators to prevent a conviction when he's impeached.
No, that sort of thing is pretty explicitly why the commerce clause exists. Not so the government can proactively regulate commerce, but so it can stop the states from individually curtailing commerce between themselves and other states. It's literally what the founders were worried about when they included it (because the states did do that under the Articles of Confederation).
Well, yeah, but I don't think the travel of citizens to do something in another state really qualifies as commerce clause "commerce" unless they're being paid to do the travel. Maybe the bus they were riding would.
Yes! Freedom of movement between states prevents banning leaving the state for a legal abortion elsewhere!
"But you support California having an exit tax on people fleeing their confiscatory tax regime."
Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain!
Ah, yes, the defense of the rule of law party.
You're a lawyer; don't toss around rule of law for partisan nonsense like that. If you have an issue with any of these actions, make it.
Right, I forgot that "rule of law" is only a stick you are allowed to wield to attack your favorite target. That the current Administration is scrambling to issue Executive Orders of no legality and dubious Constitutionality does not bother you.
How utterly contemptible.
To be honest, Trump supporters were warned all this emergency power this, executive order that, would come back to haunt you.
A president ignoring the limits on his authority doesn't have any implications for the rule of law, in your view?
Where is that occurring?
Did you read the damn article?
So you think it's antithetical to the rule of law for the President to evaluate his various options?
Antithetical?
Hell it's impeachable, Ask President Trump, the Jan 6 show, says it literally illegal.
Jan 06 was Trump evaluating his options?!
From the snippets and highlights that I get ambushed by, they are spending a lot of time about discussions of legal and constitutional pathways to accomplish the goal. The Jan 6 farce is portraying to the viewers, these discussions are proof of conspiracy, or halitosis, or a violation of the law of thermodynamics.
(they are all over the board, so hard to get a good grasp of the plot they are writing)
What goal, specifically?
Nothing is occurring.
That's rather the point.
If you want to attack the admin, wait until they do something.
But Bored Lawyer goes straight for lawless based on...what the NYT reports they're talking to people about.
...and yet the decision still not been released and the search for the "leaker" continues.
Which leaker?
The one that reportedly alerted John Eastman concerning the Court's deliberations with respect to cases associated with the "stolen election" delusions?
I wonder which justice -- or relative of a justice -- might have been a natural conduit of Trump-flattering information from within the Court's ostensible walls of confidentiality . . .
Carry on, clingers.
"Reverend" you're obsessed with this "Carry on" thang (and little boy's "thangs", but that's between you and the DA) I think you're giving away your (old) age
The Carry On series of 30 British comedy films was released between 1958 and 1978, produced by Peter Rogers with director Gerald Thomas. The humour of Carry On was in the British comic tradition of music hall and bawdy seaside postcards.
Frank "I'm at least up the the Smokey & the Bandit series"
"Reverend" you're obsessed with this "Carry on" thang
Mute works perfect. From comments, I see the usual suspects have yet to contribute to any debate.
I agree, muting really helps me speed through the chaff and get to the interesting people. It's unfortunate that muting is even necessary, but hands-down it's 1,000% better to give users individual control of this feature rather than having the moderators decide.
One improvement would be to have three states instead of just two: Read All, Summarize, and Mute. The "Summarize" state would just list the one line of the user's comment in the thread. If you wanted to read further, you would need to explicitly expand that one comment.
Where "interesting people" = white nationalists, "stolen election" kooks, and evangelical gun nuts
This blog shouldn't be all stale thinking, disaffected whining, and bigotry. Time for a tune.
Carry on
The studio version is even better.
Jeez, the music of the Living Dead (HT A Czervik), you probably still have it on the original 78's
"No executive order can re-establish a constitutional right. It would take an act of Congress to restore a national legal standard barring states from outlawing abortion"
I'm totally at a loss for the Constitutional basis for such an act of Congress. I mean, I'm coming up a total blank. Is it in the unwritten "Congress can do anything it wants, so there!" clause?
"Congress [and the President]can do anything it wants, so there!" clause?
That seems to be where we have been heading for the last several years.
Well according to modern Left legal theories, if it’s for the General Welfare they can do whatever they want.
Ironically, banning the banning of interstate travel for abortion is the kind of thing the Interstate Commerce clause was actually intended for, controversial subject aside.
As trade, it keeps the trade routes open against state interference.
I think the best take for Congress is to establish that abortion is a medical procedure and that state cannot interfere with medical treatment. I cannot think of a similar medical procedure, out patient surgical or medical, that is similarly regulated.
Yeah, and what's the constitutional basis for that "take"? I don't see it.
I guess if cutting a man's penis and testicles off, injecting him with enough Estrogen to get the entire NOW/House Woman's Cock-uss all lubed up, and inflicting a "Neo-Vagina" (in the old (i.e. 2000's we called them "Wounds") on his nether regions is a "Medical Procedure" the various methods of Abortion are.
Not questioning that they're medical procedures, just the idea that the federal government has the authority to order states to legalize procedures.
Didn't a state try to outlaw female genital mutilation? And wasn't the state's ban on it overturned, on the grounds that it didn't fit as an instance of any of the enumerated powers?
That sort of inverts things, since it's only the federal government that's limited to enumerated powers. 40 states have outlawed FGM, it was a federal ban that got struck down. And properly so, I think.
While MGM is celebrated, performed by Rabbis, fur cryin' out loud. As a "Health" Measure (can't get foreskin cancer in a foreskin that was chopped off)
Actually, I discussed this with a doctor prior to my son being born. It actually does have other medical benefits, such as a significant reduction in the chance of contracting a lot of STDs.
Moreover, I'd point out that FGM goes after a different part of the anatomy than circumcision. I expect circumcision would be a lot more controversial if it consisted of lopping of the glans.
I cannot think of a similar medical procedure, out patient surgical or medical, that is similarly regulated.
Can you think of any procedure of any kind that is engaged in for the purpose of terminating a human life that is not regulated?
take for Congress is to establish that abortion is a medical procedure
So using a medical procedure to commit murder is OK?
All the work arounds suggested never acknowledge, the battle is not abortion. It's LIFE.
Stop feigning ignorance. Of course you know it is the N&P Clause applied to the Commerce Clause (per Rauch). You just don't agree with the precedent.
I'm much more comfortable than most here with modern commerce clause doctrine (including Raich). But even I have trouble seeing how it could extend to a national abortion protection act. I will admit that the arguments for a national abortion ban seem stronger. (In terms of the commerce clause, that is—on a policy level I of course would prefer the former to the latter.)
As Scalia wrote in his Raich concurrence:
"No entity shall prevent a woman from obtaining an abortion in the first trimester" eliminates potential obstructions.
Would that stop States passing laws protecting babies in the first trimester?
Per the Supremacy Clause, yes.
Don't see it.
One is legalizing a procedure. I'm talking about protecting life, from all forms.
If a federal statute says "No entity shall prevent a woman from obtaining an abortion in the first trimester" and that statute is constitutional, then the Supremacy Clause (This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; [...] shall be the supreme law of the land [...] laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding) means the federal law preempts state laws to the contrary - even those that protect life from a federal law that legalizes a procedure.
Obstructions to what?
The substantial affect abortion services have on interstate commerce.
Like most progressive expansions it's in the FYTW clause emanating from the penumbra of the text.
I think an executive order would only prolong fighting over the issue. In a similar way, that Roe allowed people to not take the next steps and establish legislative action to allow abortions.
Why wouldn’t the Assimilative Crimes Act of 1948, 18 USC 13, automatically make a state abortion law applicable to federal enclaves within it.
It’s one thing to excercise prosecutorial discretion. It’s another to use government resources to actively facilitate commiting crimes against the United States in violation of Acts of Congress.
Under the Assimilative Crimes Act, it would appear that a future Republican administration could prosecute not just Biden but any federal government official who participates in doing this.
We already established a long time ago that "prosecutorial discretion" means that the Executive can simply ignore a law it does not like.
The President could also just issue a pardon to everyone accused of breaking that law, to prevent future administrations from prosecuting past conduct.
The President can only pardon violations of FEDERAL law.
-dk
After 50 years of Roe, now you're going to claim States Rights?
We like states rights...until we don't...until we do...unt...
Bah, new self rule: no more than two repeats of this per thread.
lol
How any abortions do you reckon are performed on federal property?
Disregard, I missed that part of the post.
But as noted in the quotation (sort of), the Assimilative Crimes Act only incorporates to state offenses that don't have a federal equivalent, and determining whether it applies or not is a pretty tricky task that will depend heavily on exactly how any criminal abortion prohibitions are framed.
Well, either there's a federal equivalent and they can be prosecuted under the federal law, or there's not and this applies. Even if it's somehow unclear, one court case would settle it one way or another.
What is the "emergency" that would precipitate an emergency declaration? Certainly an adverse judicial opinion cannot constitute an "emergency," unless emergency is read to mean "whatever the executive wants to do."
"and federal prosecutors could then charge people with crimes, like abortion, retroactively."
I don't think this is a proper application of "retroactively". Charging people with crimes ALWAYS happens after the crime took place.
Charging people with crimes "retroactively" only happens when the conduct took place before the law prohibiting it.
If a president declines to prosecute medical marinuana posession in states where it is legal, and says toke up, boys!, can a future president prosecute possession incidents that occured, and were waived, during that previous president?
Look at it this way, a few too many legislatures controlled by Republicans will use this to put restrictions on abortion if not try to outright ban them thereby turning a cake walk into a possible loss.
On states where there truly is a chance them flipping to Democrats its a real possibility attempts to restrict abortion will be sufficient to insure it; Georgia is so close to being blue because Republicans there trip over themselves being stupid.
That may be. But if so, it’s the democratic process at work. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Whatever bases courts should use for constitutional decision-making, Republicans’ chances of staying in office should not be among them.
If Tribe is being consulted, they are dumber than I think.
The Volokh Conspirators are engaging in strenuous gymnastics to try to avoid discussing an even more interesting example of elected official consultations with law professors.
The cowardice exhibited by the Conspirators with respect to the John Eastman revelations -- including an apparent leak from the Supreme Court, though one not likely to precipitate a string of posts from right-wing law professors at this blog -- is vivid and no longer hospitable to charitable interpretation.
The same is true with respect to the Jeffrey Bossert Clark revelations -- a nationally active Federalist Societeer (who focused on administrative law) might have been familiar with at least one Volokh Conspirator, and I am prepared to wager it was more than one.
What a bunch of partisan, polemical, low-grade cowards. Turns out Josh Blackman is not the outlier at this white, male, conservative blog that some readers might have figured him to be.
Piss off fucktard.
I finally figured (Southern Amurican Vernacular for "Ascertained") the "Reverend's" gig (besides Pedophilia)
He's a "Bot" make that a Pedio-Bot, it's why all his posts sound like a less bright T-1000 Terminator
"I need your clothes, your boots, and your Tricycle, (Clinger)!"
Frank
Open wider, clinger.
The American future is not going to be kind to half-educated racists, superstitious gay-bashers, old-timey misogynists, backwater immigrant-haters, and the rest of the Republican-conservative electoral coalition and their preferences (gun nuttery, anti-abortion absolutism, etc.)
Disaffected conservatives will continue to comply with the preferences of better Americans, as our national progress continues to be shaped by the liberal-libertarian mainstream against the efforts and wishes of our vestigial conservatives.
You guys get to whine and whimper about it as much as you like, of course. Culture war casualties have rights, too.
I wonder if you'll still be saying that after Nov. when the Dems lose Congress.
I will be saying that the arc of history is not uniform, and that the vestigial clingers will still get a few last gasps in here and there, but that America's betters have been charting our national progress for more than a half-century and that this trajectory is unlikely to change much.
The idea that conservatives and Republicans will become competitive in the culture war -- in a nation that becomes less bigoted, less rural, less religious, less backward, and more diverse every day, as old Republicans die off and are replaced in the natural course by younger Americans who are less intolerant, less backward, less superstitious, and less White -- is a fairy tale, right up there with old-timey religion.
Thanks for making my point Ah-Nold, I mean Reverend Ah-thuh Kookland!
You think the January 6 "Ins-erection" was bad, wait until the Dobbs opinion is released (I mean "Officially") 300,000 Screeching banshees with Pussy hats and Coat Hangers?? descending on the Surpremes?? They'll "Put an eye out!!!" (hopefully their own) Officer Bird's already planning to call out sick (He can murder a MAGA Veteran and it's "justified" , won't happen with the M2M)
Frank
If Dobbs overturns Roe, then a significant consequence might be a change of language because the fetus is recognized as a person.
Rather than a women's right issue, it becomes a case of rights in conflict.
Rather than the word abortion, the word homicide could be used. Powerful language greatly influences public opinion. Even part-time use of the word homicide would significantly change the dynamics of the public debate.
"If Dobbs overturns Roe, then a significant consequence might be a change of language because the fetus is recognized as a person."
Except the draft opinion that got leaked went out of it's way to NOT recognize the fetus as a person.
From the leaked draft:
Why would "fetal life" or "unborn human being" lead you to suppose the opinion recognized a fetus as a person? If a person is defined as having been born (which comes up a lot, even in the constitution, e.g. age, birthright citizenship, natural-born citizen), then an "unborn human being" is not a person.
Compare:
Deceased human beings
Potential human beings
Imaginary human beings
Artificial human beings
Wax people
Mole people
Undead people
Fictional people
Not a single one of those human beings or people is actually a person.
Dobbs restores the States power to define person.
That's kind of the core decision.
Well, the opinion isn't out yet. The leaked draft does no such thing.
The leaked draft permits states to provide more protection to a fetus than the 14th Amendment does, including defining a fetus to be a person within the laws of that state.
Also from the leaked draft:
If the Dobbs draft recognized fetal personhood it would have directly outlawed abortion nationally rather than explicitly returning the issue to the States as it does.
While in my opinion, fetus should have some form of rights and the state has an interest in protecting those rights, recognizing a fetus as a person under the 14th amendment will be difficult.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
Use of "born or naturalized" in the first clause implies its lack in the last two means "person" is a broader category in those.
14A protects:
1. persons born or naturalized
2. citizens
3. persons
4. persons
Person: human being regarded as an individual
An unborn child is human, without doubt. So, saying a unborn human is a "person" is easy. Maybe the current S/C won't buy it, we'll see.
Bob - my point - though not well stated - is that the pro-abortion crowd takes the position that the "unborn person " has not rights and therefore it should be perfectly legal to murder the unborn person.
I believe the fetus is not a person, killing it thus cannot be homicide, abortion should almost always be permitted in the first trimester, and the fetus has some rights that justify prohibiting abortion in the third trimester in most cases.
No that can't be right. If we stipulate that a fetus is not a person within the meaning of "any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws" that simply means that a State is not obliged by the federal Constittion to offer fetuses the equal protection of its laws.
But that doesn't mean that a State is forbidden to do so if it chooses. A State is entitled to regard a chimpanzee as a person protected by its laws against murder , if it chooses. Depends on how it drafts its laws. This would only be a federal legal problem if the federal Constitution or a federal law made killing chimpanzees legal, and beyond the scope of contrary State law, eg pursuant to some federal law pertaining to commerce in chimpanzee body parts.
I agree that a state can provide greater protection to a fetus than the Constitution does. I was merely expressing my opinion that neither the federal government or the states should do so (and thus abortion ought not be murder).
Josh, that is all a reasonable position to start the legislative process at the state level. I suggest you start building your coalition and get that codified into law
I want it codified in a federal statute.
Bob, your reading comprehension is poor.
You cut off the phrase. "All persons" is not being modified by "born or naturalized" and, separately, "in the United States." That would mean all people currently located in the US, and who were ever born or naturalized in any country.
No. "All persons" is being modified by "born or naturalized in the United States."
So yes, 3 and 4 are broader in that they also encompass people not born or naturalized in the United States. They include people born elsewhere and never naturalized.
They do not mean to include people who have never been born at all.
If the fetus is a 14th Amendment person wouldn't the fetus' right to life win out, even in states where abortion is statutorily permitted, except when the woman's life is at risk?
I keep on asking but no legal eagle ever chooses to answer.
Under normal self defense law, are you allowed to kill someone who is a posing a non lethal threat to you - assuming that is the minimum level of force that you can apply to nix the threat ? And if so how much of a non lethal threat ? And does it make a difference if they are doing it on purpose, or just accidentally ?
In my state, yes you can kill someone posing a non-lethal threat in self-defense if it's necessary, if the non-lethal threat is still threatening "imminent" "great bodily harm". And "great bodily harm" is defined as "bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily injury. "
But there's a catch when it comes to things like abortion, since the self-defense law specifies that it must be an "unlawful" interference with the person. And a fetus is of course not doing anything unlawful.
Thank you.
Lee Moore,
That's what juries do. Judge the law, as they decide the case.
Fetuses are already regarded as persons for some legal purposes. But under the Dobbs draft opinion, they would continue to not be regarded as coming within the meaning of “person” as used in the Bill of Rights.
A reminder: just as the Bill of Rights lacks “prenatal application,” it lacks “extraterritorial application.” Foreigners outside US territory don’t have constitutional rights either. If they had a right to life, we wouldn’t be able to go to war, which involves killing people without giving them any process of law.
Abortion is no different from killing people in war. Although people have ideals about when and when not to go to war, in practice it is sometimes done for purely pragmatic or even selfish reasons, and the constitution does not prohibit it. There’s no constitutional limit on the war power, no requirement that wars be necessary or morally justified before they can be started, no judicial review over them. So it will be up to the states, just as war is up to Congress, to decide whether to permit it or not.
I support abortion, but know the support is tepid at best on a democracy scale. Once illegal again, people will be tempted to assign high moral value to it, it'a a law after all, right?
Hence no real voter fallout from it, at least not on the scale of wishful disasterbation.
I have no problem thwarting the will of the majority when it involves increasing freedoms, but I don't run around vox populi uber alles in all other contexts.
I wish they were as hardcore on the first amendment as they are on abortion.
God, no. They'd be hardcore about abolishing it, remember.
Talk about it with some professors and then do absolutely nothing about it? I think they could manage it.
The more they do, the easier it is for voters to compare Biden activity on this issue to Biden activity on other issues. Voters can see how much their concerns matter to the Biden regime.
Con Law Profs?
So what did Obama tell him to do?
"declare another public health emergency"
It was predictable that once politicians found out with Covid they could wipe out civil rights and legislative limits by this dodge, it would become the preferred and instant solution to expand political power at the expense of citizens.
And as the Biden regime has proven time and again it will ignore the courts, even the Supreme Court, in pursuit of its political goals the future of democracy and freedom in the U.S. looks pretty dim.
"Dellow felegates!", Acting Naboobian Representative Jar-Jar Binks began, "I propose issuing emergency powers to the ugly old winkly guy over there.
"Yes, meesa know we have many major examples where doing so, the dear leader never gives them up, and freedom is lost. Examples from long ago, in a continent far, far away. Right up to the past few years on that and other continents far, far away. Nevermind it is always to the cheering accolades of The People."
"So this is how Liberty dies...with thunderous applause," sighed Princess Padme.
"SHUT UP, BITCH!" said the politicians turning over power to that wrinkled old man.
Liberty-minded citizens: How dare a state think they can make it illegal to go to another state for an abortion. You have travel rights as a US citizen!
Far left Democrat: Yeah!
Liberty-minded citizens: STFU, you like the idea of California adding an exit tax on people fleeing their confiscatory tax rates.
Speaking of babies (real ones), apparently Abbott Labs' baby-formula factory, which had shut down and caused the shortage, but was just re-opened, has had a disastrous flood and is now shut down again. QUESTION: How long will it be before Republican loop-a-dupes start trying to blame this on President Biden?
Abbott Lab's factory wouldn't be so critical if the FDA would remove its head from its ass and stop prohibiting european baby formula that's perfectly safe over differences in *packaging*.
I'm no Republican, but if one factory can fuck up trade in a good, it's probably the government's fault (because in a free market, there'd be enough competition that one factory couldn't do that).
But where were Biden's contingency plans ? If Dubya could be blamed for failing to leap in instantly and "solve" Katrina, despite the local authorities telling him to go forth and multiply because they had it all under control, I think we can blame Biden for failing to anticipate, and then failing to solve, this baby formula flood thing within 24 hours, don't you ?
In truth, Joe's low approval numbers are not really to do with a general perception that he's doing a bad job. It's just that it's hard to give someone a good rating if they're not all there. He's not doing a bad job. He's not doing a job at all. The bad job is being done by the people who prop him up and hold his strings.
Of course it is not Biden's fault, it's BIG OIL's fault
It's Putin's fault.
Awesome pivot to still complaining about Biden!
When the shoe fits, Old White Joe should wear it.
Gavin Newsom can share the blame. When gas is $5 per gallon is most of the US, it is $7 per gallon is CA. But Gavin is just trying to help all of his persons of color in CA by keeping the price extremely high.
Longer than it takes Biden to scapegoat the oil guys for the results of his policies.
I know, the Nerve! it's almost like they shut down a pipeline or something,
Another idea is to declare a public health emergency so as to enable doctors to practice across state lines so that doctors could facilitate abortions in states without fear of sanctions from state licensing authorities or other legal liability. This policy, too, could be reversed by a subsequent administration.
Reversed....or doubled down ? How about a National Slow Growth Emergency requiring the White House, with phone and pen, to permit anyone operating in any business licensed by any State to operate across State lines without fear of sanctions from State authorities.
I think the emergency could be declared "over" when we've had five or six years of 5%+ real GDP growth.
Tribe says the Supreme Court is out of control. As it should be! I wonder whether he thinks the Supreme Court should be controlled by...Laurence Tribe? Or maybe by a gaggle of Wackademics? What a pity the Boston telephone directory is no longer a thing.
The length dems will go to make sure it is still legal to murder babies should make you shudder....
I’d love to see a federal law that prohibits one’s state of residence from prosecuting you for traveling to another state to do something that is legal in the destination state.
I mean, if the red states were consistent about that then maybe 30% of their population would be in prison related to things they did in Vegas.
I'd like to see a Federal Law that would let you retroactively abort wastes of Jizz like yourself. Except for maybe Idaho and Alaska, most "Red" States have significant populations of a different color that experience Prison quite frequently, without the help of Vegas (Blue State last time I checked, even if stolen)
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States [the way I read it]."
There's nothing untrue about what you semi-quoted. It'd be true for anyone who took that oath, in fact.
If you've intended another meaning between the lines, I've missed it, sorry.
Unnamed constitutional law professors giving free legal advice to vice president asterisk are quoted as saying: "It (re-establishing a constitutional right to abortion) would take an act of Congress to restore a national legal standard barring states from outlawing abortion..."
The fundamental gist of Dobbs is that The Constitution does not delegate to Congress the power to legislate concerning abortion, so that legislative power is reserved to the states, and must be returned to them.
I'm reminded of the tale "The Emperor Has No Clothes," only in reverse. The Tenth Amendment is still right there in plain view 230 years after its ratification, but progressive American constitutional law professors are still absurdly pretending that they cannot see it.
Can you point out the language in the draft opinion that you think expresses this "gist"?
It's in the penumbra.
Why must you people always be insisting on actual textual references for gistual speculation ?
I love the use of "gistual" in a sentence, but I feel like there's a better word out there for what you're describing. Maybe "reductionist speculation".
How about offering abortions at the post office?
They could throw in a free book of stamps.
Only the pre-WWII portions of military bases are under exclusive federal jurisdiction. The remaining portions, usually the largest, are under both federal and state jurisdictions so that state law CAN be enforced against civilians who violate STATE laws. There are perhaps a few exceptions.
Former JAG officer.
Remember this "Pulp Fiction" comic book from my Youth (1970's, I bought alot of used comic books)
Prospector kills his Partner at "4 Corners" junction of AZ/CO/NM/UT, steals his gold, buries him, then the nightmares start...
Where he's Hung/Shot(UT) Gassed (AZ/CO) Electrocuted (NM)
can't remember the ending, but he died in an ironic way...
Seems there was some Law Journal Article about a section of Yellowstone where you could murder someone and get away with it (I mean a full grown human and not a Fetus) due to lack or proper jurisdiction... (the Comic Book was more interesting)
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=691642
Frank "Want to go to Idaho?"
" and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"
After WWII Congress apparently stopped bothering with asking for that consent.
I'm not a lawyer, obviously. But has no one on this thread, has no one in the law profession heard of enumerated powers? The constitution grants the federal govt certain enumerated powers. And ONLY those powers. If Dobbs is overturned, SCOTUS is saying abortion is NOT one of those enumerated powers, therefore, the federal govt has no power to do anything about it. It can't make abortions legal on military bases. It can make abortions illegal on military bases. It can't prevent states from regulating abortions. It can't help states regulates abortion. IT HAS NO POWER REGARDING AORTIONS. What am I missing?
Providing abortion services is an economic activity. Under Raich, Congress can regulate economic activity that, when taken in the aggregate, substantially impacts interstate commerce even if the economic activity does not itself involve interstate commerce nor any single instance substantially affects interstate commerce.
I think you're missing that the same clause of the Constitution that authorizes the District of Columbia allows the federal government to exercise authority as though it were a state in areas the states have voluntarily ceded such authority over.
So there are some areas, in addition to DC, where the federal government would still have authority over abortion if Dobbs goes down as we expect.
Not just mitary bases. Courthouses. VA hospitals. There are federal buildings in just about every city of any size.
The issue with executive action is that the Assimilative Crimes Act makes state law applicable to federal territory. But if Congress had the votes, it could amend the law to legalize abortion in federal territory. And it could go further and actively facilitate abortion. It could set up abortion clinics in federal buildings if it wanted to.
But any of this would require an act of Congress.
Regulating interstate commerce is an enumerated power. The power to regulate interstate commerce includes the power to prohibit states from interfering with it. Traveling to another state for an abortion is interstate commerce. Sending abortion pills in the mail is interstate commerce.
Even under a fairly narrow, traditional, pre-New Deal conception of interstate commerce, there are quite a number of things Congress could do to facilitate abortion if it wanted to, just as there are quite a number of things it could do to prohibit it.
Regulating federal territory is an enumerated power. So if Congress wanted to facilitate abortion, it could not only legalize abortion in federal territory, it could set up abortion climics in federal buildings like courthouses if it wanted to.
Spending is an enumerated power. So Congress could condition receipt of federal funding on states legalizing abortion (although there are some limits on this.). It could not only pay for abortions, it could pay to have people travel to other states for abortions.
"that the Supreme Court is out of control" -- It gets harder and harder to take Tribe seriously. "Rulings I disagree with" = "Out of control"? Good grief.
Hi, Queenie. What a great point. I am the biggest fan of the lawyer profession. I want it to be good. I do not support violence. Torts replaces endless cycles of retaliatory violence that make life unlivable.
Please explain why there are so many unwanted pregnancies.
930,000 abortions on 2020.
And "does anyone think Queen almathea never casts aspersions on people's motives, but instead always responds to their actual statements?"
This is a rather silly game for adults to play.
Grammar's OverRated, like Sleepy's Glasgow Coma Scale score
I'd give him an "8"
Umm, it's actually not a bad "choice" if you can get over the "Killing Babies" part, given as all of the available forms of Contraception have significant complications. (Even going Homo doesn't make you Immune, look at Pete Booty-Judge and his Bottom "Chaz", they still got pregnant!)
And even if you don't "choose" you have to stop every 250,000,000 sperm per ever cc/ normal male ejaculate. Only one has to get through to ruin everything.
Actually Intravenous Ethyl Alcohol (AKA "Booze") is the treatment of choice for Ethylene Glycol Poisoning (AKA "Antifreeze") and used to be used commonly for treatment of Alcohol Withdrawal (ask Reverend "Klinger" Kirtland, who doesn't like to talk about his Korean War experience(or his Cross Dressing, which for some reason started AFTER his service) even remember seeing it on a M*A*S*H episode.
And no US States outlaw Ethyl Alcohol, but still a few "Dry" counties in a few "Red" states
Frank
What a crock of shit! Maybe if Planned Parenthood didn't make so much money on abortions and selling baby parts they'd be more concerned with the "planned" part.
By the way is "passion" a synonym for irresponsibility?
So blissful to be ignorant.
Psss, Queenie
don't tell my wife, because she's against Abortion, so I have to pretend to be against it, but I want it to be 1: Safe (no argument, Childbirths dangerous as fuck) 2: Legal, and 3: Disproportionately practiced in, umm, how did Justice Homes put it? "Imbeciles".
Of course who I consider Imbeciles might not be the same as you, that's why they call states the "Abortion Clinics" of Democracy.
Frank
Unplanned pregnancies lead to inflation?
Queen LaQueefa!!!! Something we agree on! a "Zygote" is "Life" (find me a person who didn't start as a Zygote, besides the "Reverend" of course, who started life as the Brown Stain on the Sheet)
Frank "Loves the Zygotes"
You are here commenting as a post-zygote yourself. To imply that you were not human when you were in that stage of your life is irrational. You were "not you" then, but you are you, now? What happened to transform you into a human?
I know you are far too intelligent to waste time with rhetoric around semantics. "Zygote" is a stage of human development, it is not a thing in itself. It is merely just a point along a continuum which began at conception and ends at death. There's no point along that continuum where you somehow weren't the product of human conception. From the first moment, you always were human, just like you are human, now.
Me thinks you had too much time playing the Skin-Flute.
Hi, Queenie. Great argument. If we had not listened to you, we would be plagued by 60 million more Democrats than we have today, 20 million being diverses. You are a genius.
You do realize 'queenie' is most likely a man
You do realize Queenie most likely denies having a penis is dispositive of that question
We love states rights (sanctuary cities)...until we don't(abortion)...until we do(states get to hamper which one you go to via exit taxes)...until we don't(states can't hamper immigrants)...until...
These are all fundamentally different questions about the structure of our federated system. There are no double standards here.
Sanctuary cities are debates about federal supremacy in a particular statutory regime.
States 'hampering' immigrants (do you mean illegals?) is about federal preemption in said regime.
Abortion is a debate about a federal right.
Taxes are about state power's extent.