The Volokh Conspiracy
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Not Libel or IIED to Accuse Ex-Son-in-Law of Trying to Turn His Daughter (Accuser's Granddaughter) Lesbian,
at least in text messages to the grandchildren.
From James v. McGuinness, decided today by the Indiana Court of Appeals, in an opinion by Judge Edward Najam, joined by Chief Judge Cale Bradford and Judge Mark Bailey:
James was married to McGuiness' daughter, Nicole Smith, until 2008. During the marriage, James and Smith had two children, Luca and [Shae], both of whom are now adults. For the past fourteen years, James has been in a same-sex relationship….
Scott assert[s] that McGuiness had sent Shae a text message with the following statements: "I will accept your father has turned you into a monster like himself"; "He hates us because we are educated, normal, and respectable"; "We may not have his money but what we have we earned"; and "He wanted to use you as a tool to move to Miami which has a large homosexual population." In addition, James claimed that McGuiness had stated to Luca and other individuals that James was "trying to 'turn' Shae gay," that he was "trying to lure Shae to Florida to entice her into the gay lifestyle," that James "was disgusting," and that "being gay is disgusting." …
The court held that McGuinness's statements didn't qualify as defamation:
"Defamation is that which tends to injure reputation or to diminish esteem, respect, good will, or confidence in the plaintiff, or to excite derogatory feelings or opinions about the plaintiff." … [Under Indiana law,]
[a] defamatory statement is said to either be "defamatory per se" or "defamatory per quod." A communication is defamatory per se if it imputes: (1) criminal conduct; (2) a loathsome disease; (3) misconduct in a person's trade, profession, office, or occupation; or (4) sexual misconduct. All other defamatory communications are defamatory per quod….
For a statement to be actionable as defamatory per se, it must not only carry with it one of the four defamatory imputations—criminal conduct, loathsome disease, misconduct in profession, or sexual misconduct—but it also must "constitute a serious charge of incapacity or misconduct in words so obviously and naturally harmful that proof of their injurious character can be dispensed with. The offensiveness of the statements cannot be determined by how the plaintiff views the statement; the defamatory nature must be present in the nature of the words without any additional facts or circumstances to give context." …
None of [McGuinness's] comments impute any loathsome disease. Further, while McGuiness' statements regarding James' money may imply that James did not earn his money in the traditional way, it does not impute any misconduct in his trade or occupation or criminal misconduct. And, contrary to James' assertions, McGuiness' statements regarding James' attempts to turn Shae gay or to entice her into the gay lifestyle do not impute any sexual misconduct. As a result, McGuiness' statements "fall[ ] short of the type of statement covered by a claim of defamation per se." …
James contends that, even if McGuiness' statements are not defamatory per se, they are defamatory per quod…. [But] while McGuiness' statements may have been rude and disparaging, they … cannot be imbued with the defamatory meaning suggested by James….
And the court also rejected James' intentional infliction of emotional distress claim:
To establish a claim of intentional infliction of emotional distress, a plaintiff must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant (1) engaged in extreme and outrageous conduct (2) which intentionally or recklessly (3) caused (4) severe emotional distress to another…. "The conduct must be particularly deplorable to meet the extreme and outrageous requirement."
Conduct is extreme and outrageous only where the conduct has been so outrageous in character, and so extreme in degree, as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency, and to be regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community. Generally, the case is one in which the recitation of the facts to an average member of the community would arouse his resentment against the actor, and lead him to exclaim, "Outrageous!"
"If reasonable persons can differ regarding the extremity and outrageousness of certain conduct, then the matter should be left to a jury's determination."
On appeal, James alleges that he stated a claim for which relief could be granted because McGuiness' "actions were a clear attempt to undermine [and] destroy [James'] relationship with his children, and reasonable persons, consistent with today's prevailing norms and values, could find such conduct outrageous." But even if James' contentions were true, we conclude that McGuiness' statements do not constitute "outrageous" behavior. Again, McGuiness sent Shae messages saying that James is a "monster," saying that James disliked them for being "normal," saying that he wanted to use Shae as a tool to move to Miami, and implying that James did not earn his money. And McGuiness told Luca James was trying to "turn" Shae gay, that James was "disgusting" and that being gay is "disgusting."
Even considering the facts in the light most favorable to James, reasonable persons would not differ regarding the extremity and outrageousness of McGuiness' conduct. While we certainly do not condone McGuiness' conduct, nothing about her statements is so extreme in degree as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency and should be regarded as utterly intolerable in a civilized society….
Congratulations to William N. Riley and Sundeep Singh of RileyCate, LLC, who represented McGuinness.
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The court is making a rent seeking fool of itself. It should authorize the Clerk of Court to dismiss cases with prejudice that do not state a physical or financial damage. Verklempt as a damage makes the court look really stupid and churning of legal fees.
Again, Eugene can make himself useful by disclosing the total legal costs of these frivolous cases.
Seems like the correct result. The fact that she is a bigoted sack of s**t (the court's opinion was a bit more charitable to her, I grant you) does not mean that every moral wrong = a legal wrong.
I'd also see nothing wrong with James now writing to her and saying, "My kids are now adults. But, you've lost future contact with them, to the limited degree I personally can effect this. Bad behavior has consequences."
Thank you for the groomer point of view.
What is the youngest grade at which gender identity should be covered?
What about paranoid schizophrenia?
What about body identity disorder? In BID one sincerely feels one has no legs or no eyes. One lives that life. Then one demands surgery to bring physical reality to the mental identity.
Which is more radical surgery? The enucleation of 2 healthy eyes or a sex change? What thoughts about the ethics of surgeons who make money from operating on healthy body parts?
It should’ve been defamation, what’s grosser than being gay?
Not much.
The "gay lifestyle" is always portrayed as being lots of fun in movies and television shows. Who would not want to be part of that?
...of course, that's why it is called "gay".
It's even referred to in Christmas carols such as "don we now our gay apparel (you know chaps and rhinestone jockstraps).
Nothing says fun like whipping a person dressed in a leather gimp costume on a parade float.
I remember when gay became the syninym for homsexual. It was used in irony.
"gay lifestyle" is always portrayed as being lots of fun in movies and television shows
You have not seen a lot of media about gay people, methinks. Angst is like their main brand.
Angst, and the accidental or on-purpose ingestion of human fecal matter.
Don't forget that.
You watch a lot of movies about that?
I am unsurprised.
The media I have seen depicts them as smartly dressed men always hanging out in some trendy place with lots of disposable income. But I guess if you are programmed to see victimhood everywhere, why not there too. If your only tool is a hammer.....
So you've not seen actual gay movies or shows. You know, Moonlight, Call me By Your Name, Queer as Folk, Pose, It's a Sin.
Like, I haven't seen most of those, but I'm at least hip enough to see that you're talking out of your hat again.
So you haven't seen any of those movies you reference, but somehow you magically know what they are about. That is not helping your credibility here at all.
Gay people are represented almost everywhere. Modern Family and last decade Will and Grace. Gay men are usually portrayed as being sophisticated and cultured. You attempting to gaslight everyone into thinking something else isn't really working....
Reviews are a thing that exists, Jimmy!
You cited 2 shows, one of which is from quite some time ago. I cited more, all from more recently. That's not gaslighting, that's you being wrong yet again.
"I cherry picked a few examples and know my world view of victimhood is correct!!!!" is pretty much what you are (unconvincingly) saying here.
I didn't cherry pick anything, I just pointed out how there are plenty of recent shows that put the lie to your 'always portrayed.' I've also read/listened to plenty of opinions from gay folk about how angst-ridden gay pop culture is if that's what you gotta see.
In the end, your sense is flat wrong. You were speaking from what you feel, not anything based in the actual media landscape.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Na I know what I see in just about every movie and TV show. You are just too caught up in trying to constantly find a victim that you can't see the obvious in front of your nose.
You know what you see. So why not put forth a superlative thesis and then become utterly immune to facts?
Funny, I don't see much victimhood here, except you being forced to like the gays by big gay media.
"The media I have seen depicts them as. . . ."
Um, Jimmy, that's not real life.
And Jurassic Park isn't real either so you don't have to be afraid of dinosaurs.
Um, Jimmy, that's not real life.
No shit, Sherlock. This thread started out with Jimmy writing "The "gay lifestyle" is always portrayed as being lots of fun in movies and television shows."
My point was that when something is favorably portrayed in the media people tend to want to associate with whatever that is.
Sarc is trying to gaslight everyone into trying to believe that the gay lifestyle is not depicted as being a sophisticated, cultured one which is just him lying.
1. I provided examples. Your response is 'my feelings trump your examples, you are lying' because you live in a land where your feelings trump evidence.
2. I'm sorry the media you watch makes you want to be gay. But I think that's a you problem.
It wasn't that long ago that calling someone gay was itself libel/slander worthy.
With conservatives (and Reason commentators) now reviving "gay people are child predators" myths, I wonder how long it'll be before this is again the case.
You can blame your fellow travellers and their obsession with posting their hatred of Western civilization on TicToc. It's the very words and actions of the groomers being shouted for all the world to see that people are reacting to.
All the grooming aside, GTFOOHWTBS -- gaslighting is boring.
Prof. Volokh does not always congratulate the lawyers, but when he does, there is customarily a right-wing angle.
In this case, the applauded lawyers represented a bigot.
Hi, Rev. What is the youngest grade at which gender identity should be covered?
What about paranoid schizophrenia?
What about body identity disorder? In BID one sincerely feels one has no legs or no eyes. One lives that life. Then one demands surgery to bring physical reality to the mental identity.
Which is more radical surgery? The enucleation of 2 healthy eyes or a sex change? What thoughts about the ethics of surgeons who make money from operating on healthy body parts?
Do you think it's normal and healthy to abuse the digestive system with your sodomy?
Thus causing the mass murder of 20 million people because of your sexual selfishness?
Eugene has presented us this case because it adopts his view that calling gay people “disgusting monsters” is just a reasonable point of view; indeed, so reasonable as to preclude the need to have the matter settled by a jury.
Once again, courts show a proclivity for finding ways not to apply the law, when gay people are involved.
Keeping the world safe for bigots and bigotry — and providing an especially safe space for bigots and bigotry — is one of this white, male, conservative blog’s animating features.
UCLA, Georgetown, and a few other institutions brought this on themselves, at least to substantial degree, by hiring these guys.
Grooming and bug spreading, Rev. You ned to confess and to repent. You sre headed for the Nether World.
Simon. Zero tolerance for woke. All woke is to be cancelled. All agencies, all judges, all employers.
So I take it the common law rule was abrogated and accusing someone of being a homosexual is no longer libel per se in Indiana?
It is now high praise in Indiane thanks to the woke lawyer profession.
Praise for homosexuals is so 2015. Transgenders and other mentally ill deviants are the new celebrated.
Certainly not if it's true...
Trying to turn somebody gay, criminal, loathsomely diseased, etc. is not the same as being gay, criminal, loathsomely diseased, etc.
“…nothing about her statements is so extreme in degree as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency and should be regarded as utterly intolerable in a civilized society….”
That’s incorrect but it’s hard to hate on it too much. The average American does struggle to understand “decency.”
Wow, shocking. 1 out of every 15 men and women who are gay is a pedophile. While that sounds like a statistic you pulled out of your ass; I am confident that you have the links and cites to support this. Most of the past 30 years of my legal career has been doing child abuse cases, and the worst statistic I saw (coming out of LA County) was that, over time, 1-3% of children who are sexually abused will go on to similarly abuse others. I look forward to seeing your (wildly) different data. I presume you were making a serious point, and not just inventing a lie as an aid to your homophobic bias, yes?
You know what this says nothing about?
"The "gay lifestyle" is always portrayed as being lots of fun in movies and television shows. "
If you thought for just a moment before you jerked your puritan knee, you'd realize that support for gay marriage doesn't have much to do with 'is gayness fun?'
Look it up yourself. Gays are disproportionately predatory
Dude, you provided the number. When called on it, you refuse to back it up except with some anecdote about a Star Trek actor?!
Bad show, dude.
I did not comment on my thoughts of the "gay lifestyle" and just made an observation on how it is portrayed in the media. As people like to emulate positive things they view in movies or television shows it does not surprise me someone might want to associate with the "gay lifestyle."
Back in the 1990's when the media portrayed gangster rappers in a positive light it was almost every single suburban teen thought being in the Crips or Bloods would cool, created their own local equivalents, flashed "gang signs", and the whole nine yards.
When Mad Men was popular 8-10 years ago, many also wanted to emulate those characters by dressing up to go to work, drinking craft cocktails, etc.
Are you seriously trying to say that media does not have an impact on culture and that the media has not historically portrayed the "gay lifestyle" in a very positive light?