The Volokh Conspiracy
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Anonymity and Pro-Abortion-Rights Initiatives and Referenda
What kind of a showing of possible "harassment" or "reprisals" must backers of such ballot measures make to keep petition signatures (and financial contributions) from becoming public records?
If the Court indeed holds that the Constitution doesn't protect abortion rights, the debate will move to state legislation (as well as to state constitutional decisionmaking). And I expect that some of that legislation will be through the initiative and referendum process.
My sense from the surveys is that there is a good deal of support even in many majority-Republican states for protecting abortion rights at least in the first trimester—and that in some of them, the voters are more pro-abortion-rights than the state Legislature. Such mismatches between statewide public sentiment and results in the Legislature often do happen, for a variety of reasons; nor do they necessarily reflect anything nefarious: Different modes of legislation aggregate public preferences in different ways. But in any event, such mismatches are a classic example of where initiatives and referenda can make a difference (as we've seen, for instance, with anti-race-preferences initiatives in various states).
To give just one example, consider Utah. The Legislature there recently banned abortions with exceptions for rape, incest, and the woman's health. But the public appears closely divided on abortion rights generally, with one poll reporting that 47% of Utahns say abortion should be legal in most or all cases, and 51% say it should be illegal—doubtless within the margin of error, and potentially within the margin of political compromise and perhaps political persuasion.
I likewise expect that there is a good deal of support even in many majority-Democrat states for restricting abortions at least starting with the second trimester—and that in some of them, the voters are more pro-restriction than the state Legislature.
Many states, though, make initiative and referendum signatures matters of public record. Doe v. Reed (2010) held that such disclosure rules are facially constitutional, because they can help "preserv[e] the integrity of the electoral process by combating fraud, detecting invalid signatures, and fostering government transparency and accountability." (Justice Scalia would have reached the same result, but by concluding that a petition signature is a legislative act that had historically been viewed as public, and thus wasn't subject to the First Amendment.)
But Doe v. Reed also held that proponents of such initiatives and referenda can file as-applied challenges, and get an exemption from the disclosure requirement if they can show "a reasonable probability that the compelled disclosure [of personal information] will subject them to threats, harassment, or reprisals from either Government officials or private parties." And that appears to include nonviolent private reprisals, such as firing from a job (presumably including legal firing, in states that don't ban employment discrimination based on such political activity). To my knowledge, though, courts haven't resolved exactly what counts as "harassment[] or reprisals," and how much of that needs to be shown.
Here are my questions: Say that the proponents of an abortion-related ballot measure argue that many of their petition signers will face "reprisals" in the form of
- religious ostracism, or even excommunication or similar expulsion from their or their families' religious communities,
- social ostracism from their secular communities, or
- economic repercussions short of being fired (e.g., lost business opportunities, boycotts, and the like).
Should that suffice to keep the names of signers confidential?
Note also that similar arguments could apply to financial donations to the campaign, see Brown v. Socialist Workers '74 Campaign Committee (1982), but I expect that this will be somewhat less significant, because contributions would likely be available (on both sides) from people throughout the country. Petitions, on the other hands, would need to be signed by voters within the state.
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Signing a petition or expressing an opinion should not subject anyone to many of these consequences but that has surely not been the case.
The problem lies with those who feel free to use this information to punish those with whom they do not agree.
I have no idea to that can be prevented without a return to some civility in public discourse.
Eugene refuses to say the obvious. Anonymity is an admission by the scumbag lawyer profession it cannot protect its parties or litigants.
Which is more harmful? A gang threatens to kick the ass of a witness in a crime for testifying. A school fires a professor from a $100000 a year job, and he cannot be hired by other schools. The scumbag lawyer cannot protect its participants from either. That means, participate in the rule of law, instead of in self help, pay a huge price with no assurance of justice. Do it yourself you have a much better chance.
Feminists are targeting kids for intimidation.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/06/justice-amy-coney-barretts-children-and-church-latest-target-of-radical-ruthsentus-group/
Misogyny deserves to be shamed and ridiculed. Overt racism is no longer acceptable in polite company. Neither should sexism be acceptable.
Well so much for free speech and civility.
Zero tolerance for woke. All woke are servants of the Chinese Commie Party and traitors. We need a database of woke. All in the database should be excluded from all services and products.
In addition, all woke is the denial of reality and fake. We are being forced to comply with fake rules at the point of a gun. All stereotypes are folk statistics, mostly true, most of the time. They also change with reality. The 2010 Census showed African immigrants outperformed white. Now, there is a new stereotype. See a very dark person, chase after him with wads of cash to take your job or come to your school.
not guilty : Misogyny deserves to be shamed and ridiculed. Overt racism is no longer acceptable in polite company. Neither should sexism be acceptable.
This of course implies that opposition to abortion rights is a form of misogyny or sexism. So not guilty's formula is that he (or she) gets to determine what society regards as misogyny or sexism.
However Brett's poll numbers reveal that American society does not agree with not guilty, because the proportion of the population who disapprove of abortion being legal increases as the fetus gets older, until a very clear majority (71%) disapprove in the third trimester.
From this we can deduce that the great majority of the American public regard abortion rights as a battle between the rights of the mother and the rights of the child, with the balance shifting in favor of the child as it gets older, more obviously recognisable as the sort of baby that peope are familar with, and less like a blob of cells or a space alien.
Whether these considerations would satisfy philosophers is debatable, but what is clear is that what is moving the polling needle is not a (decidely weird) misogynism, which starts as insignificant and mysteriously grows monstrously larger as a woman enters the third trimester; but a much more understandable protective feeling towards the child, which grows as the child becomes more recognizable as such.
In short, for most Americans, opposition to abortion rights (whenever it kicks in) can, if we believe the polls, have nothing to do with misogyny or sexism. It must have to do with a change in attitude towards the creature whose life is, or is not, to be terminated.
To which we may add that opinions about abortion really have no correlation with sex; Women have the same opinions on the matter as men, typically.
So he's really accusing about half the women in the country of being misogynists.
Roe v. Wade addressed a conflict between the rights of a pregnant woman to privacy, personal autonomy and bodily integrity and the interests of a state government in preserving fetal life.
Justice Blackmun's opinion struck a balance between these competing interests, recognizing that the governmental interest becomes greater as the pregnancy progresses to term.
Justice Alito's draft opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization includes no discussion of the individual rights of a pregnant woman at all -- it thereby treats such rights as non-existent. Justice Amy Coney Bear It is presumably a supporter of the draft opinion. That is objectively misogynist.
Justice Alito's draft opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization includes no discussion of the individual rights of a pregnant woman at all
Nonsense. It goes on for pages and pages discussing these alleged rights, from a legal rather than a moral perspective, which is what you would expect a court of law to be doing, before concluding after careful analysis that whatever these rights may be, none of them are included in the Federal Constitution.
You are doing the old is / ought quickstep here.
SCOTUS, in Dobbs, is conducting a legal inquiry as to what the law is. Meanwhile the American public is being asked in polls, what the law ought to be. And plainly the American public is weighing the moral rights of the mother and child, and adjusting the weighting as the child gets older.
The fact that SCOTUS, in Dobbs, does not weigh the mother's moral right against the child's moral right is because it is conducting a legal inquiry into the legal rights, not a moral inquiry into moral rights. And finding that there is no legal right to abortion within the Federal Constitution, there is no legal reason to attempt to go any further.
Blackmun's "analysis" is simply the importation of his own moral weighting into a moral equation which does not appear in the actual law. In other words he was winging it to arrive at his preferred answer.
Don't be obtuse. Any discussion of a pregnant woman's individual constitutional rights in Alito's draft opinion in Dobbs serves only to denigrate the very existence of such rights.
Blackmun's opinion in Roe appropriately recognized a tension between a woman's legal (not merely moral) right to privacy and a state's governmental interest in preserving fetal life. The opinion struck a balance between the conflicting legal interests -- the interest of the state may predominate after the point of viability, subject to an exception for preservation of maternal health. When SCOTUS opined that "If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child", Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438, 453 (1972), the Court was dealing with a legal right, not a moral right.
My "obtuseness" consists in believing that a two hundred page tract discussing unicorns, what their characteristics might be, what they might feed on, and whether or not they actually exist, is a discussion about unicorns.
Your opinion seems to be that any amount of consideration of, and talk on, the subject of unicorns is not a discussion of unicorns unless it concludes that unicorns exist.
It's some kind of mental process, Jim, but not as we know it.
"But the public appears closely divided on abortion rights generally, with one poll reporting that 47% of Utahns say abortion should be legal in most or all cases, and 51% say it should be illegal—doubtless within the margin of error, and potentially within the margin of political compromise and perhaps political persuasion."
It needs to be pointed out that polls have shown that the very same people who will say that abortion should be legal in most or all cases, when actually presented with specific cases end up revealing that they were only thinking of first trimester abortions.
Abortion: Gallup Historical Trends
May 2022: "Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances or illegal in all circumstances?"
Legal under any circumstances: 35%
Legal under most: 18%
Legal in only a few circumstances: 32%
Illegal in all circumstances: 13%
So, sure, 35+18 is 53%, greater than half.
But then you get into the weeds.
"Thinking more generally, do you think abortion should generally be legal or generally illegal during each of the following stages of pregnancy."
In the first 3 months:
Should be legal 67%
Should be illegal 27%
Depends 5%
In the second 3 months:
Should be legal 36%
Should be illegal 55%
Depends 7%
In the last 3 months:
Should be legal 20%
Should be illegal 71%
Depends 8%
So, over 50% only in the first trimester.
Unfortunately, Gallup stopped asking the really detailed questions in 2018. But back in 2018 the numbers said that elective abortion only had 45% support in the first trimester, and after that the numbers dropped drastically.
Basically you've got a hard 5-8% who oppose abortion under "all" circumstances even when asked about specific cases, and you've got a hard 20% who favor elective abortion being legal right up to birth. Most people only support elective abortions in the first trimester, if at all.
What's interesting is, despite those stats, there are 7 states (and one district), where abortion is legal for any reason at all, up to the date of birth.
Those states are: Alaska, New Jersey, New Mexico, Colorado, Oregon, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Washington DC.
(Edit. New Hampshire recently restricted abortion up to 24 weeks, as of January 1st, 2022)
Those laws are some of the most extreme in the world. No other country that I've been able to find...period...allows abortion up to the age up birth for any reason.
So by your data, Bellmore, people want the right to abortion in the first trimester. So it would be a disaster for Republicans if they allowed this to be decided by the voters via referendum.
As Voloch naively speculates: 'And I expect that some of that legislation will be through the initiative and referendum process.'
If anyone thinks the legislators in my state (Texas) will allow the people to decide this you are delusional
"So it would be a disaster for Republicans if they allowed this to be decided by the voters via referendum."
Why would it be a "disaster"? The Republicans believe in letting the people democratically decide the laws.
That explains Republican opposition to the structural amplification of certain votes (Electoral College, Senate), the Republican opposition to the filibuster, and the lack of a Republican voter suppression record.
Hobie, those are nation-wide numbers, opinion varies from state to state.
Also, on account of Roe, the questions were asked on a "trimester" basis, while the laws in question are usually finer grained. So it's quite possible most of the people favoring elective abortion in the first trimester in a given state would be cool with a ban that kicked in earlier than 3 months.
"If anyone thinks the legislators in my state (Texas) will allow the people to decide this you are delusional."
The people decide what the law will be by deciding who the legislators will be. It's admittedly not a perfect system, but in most cases it's going to be better than direct democracy, since people just don't have the time to be legislators themselves.
It's in the professional self-interest, in a much less conflicted way than for pollsters, for elected legislators to be aware of the actual nature of public opinion. So I tend to think if something the polls say is unpopular, but which doesn't directly implicate the self-interest of legislators, keeps happening, maybe the polls aren't telling the whole story.
Yep, first trimester (12 weeks) abortions are slightly above the 50/50 mark
Thus pro-death folks say abortion up to the moment of birth are popular.
Bellmore, you have no standing for concern. Your advocacy has been on behalf of tyrannical invasions of medical privacy, by government, under color of law. Compared to that, private targeting by public protest is small potatoes. Those targeted would be served a small portion of the abuse they would heap on others by government force.
I would prefer mutual civility instead. That cannot happen unless those exerting minority power via the courts restrain their maximal ambitions.
Perhaps you fear seething, continual public disorder. You should, along with everyone else. If so, your only wise advocacy is to urge and organize people such as yourself to pressure the present Court majority to stay its hand short of imposing its overreaching political agenda.
"I would prefer mutual civility instead. That cannot happen unless those exerting minority power via the courts restrain their maximal ambitions."
Then you should be happy as a clam if the Supreme court really does over-rule Roe, because all that happens is that this particular decision returns to being decided by the people through their elected representatives, rather than by judicial fiat.
It would literally be a case of the Court finally ceasing to exert minority power.
I suppose that would make you happy. To see the Court releasing something like half the states from respect for medical privacy, and allowing them instead to tyrannize women. There is no reason for me to celebrate that.
You seem to have lost track of what is actually threatened.
You should probably settle on a complaint that's at least internally consistent. You can certainly argue that a particular policy should be off the table for reasons of some right or other that ought to be respected, and then provide reasons why that right you're asserting is legally binding on the courts, or morally binding on the legislature.
What you can't coherently argue is that the courts, by permitting the democratic process to make policy, are "exerting minority power". They are literally doing the exact opposite.
A group supporting abortion rights has suggested targeting Justice Barrett's children with protests. The group tweeted an infographic with the name of Barrett’s church. It also identified the school that Barrett’s children attend, and encouraged protesters to “voice your anger” by demonstrating there. https://www.nationalreview.com/news/pro-choice-group-ruth-sent-us-suggests-targeting-amy-coney-barretts-children/
I have mixed feelings about that. Non-violent demonstrations including picketing are clearly First Amendment protected. See, Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011); United States v. Grace, 461 U.S. 171 (1983). Whether what is proposed is wise or appropriate is a separate question.
I see a distinction between targeting the children's school and protesting near to a Catholic Church building. Either is an invasion of familial privacy, but I have very little sympathy for someone who, having chosen the oppressive side of the culture war, would deny rights of privacy to tens of millions of women of childbearing age. If Justice Barrett's privacy is impinged, then que sera, sera, and her children's privacy is collateral damage. A school, however, includes children whose families have no skin in the game, and demonstrating near to such a school would be unwisely disruptive.
A Catholic Church is a different matter. RoCaMBLA has obnoxiously injected itself into the abortion rights debate, and its parishioners have voluntarily associated themselves with that endeavor. They should be fair game.
Either is an invasion of familial privacy, but I have very little sympathy for someone....
IE "Sure, it's an invasion of privacy, but I don't like them or what they believe, so it's OK in my book. Anyone near them is just collateral damage"
"If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child." Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438, 453 (1972).
Those who do not respect privacy have no standing to kvetch here. Karma can be ruthless.
"Those who do not respect privacy have no standing to kvetch here."
And the folks who claim to respect privacy yet ignore it rampantly when they are upset about something?
I haven't suggested that the government should interfere with Justice Bear It's fundamental rights. So far as interpersonally shaming her misogyny by those whom she would harm, however, that is fair game.
You do realize, that what your proposing is actually illegal, right?
No, it isn't. There is a federal statute applicable to a justice's residence, but a church or a school is not covered thereunder. Non-violent demonstrating and picketing in public places is fully protected by the First Amendment. Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011).
What you're doing is attempting to influence a judicial proceeding. Which is illegal. That's why the picketing law outside of justice's residences exists.
And you can have a protest outside a school. But if the purpose and point of that protest is to influence a judicial proceeding, then it's going to be illegal. Under 18 U.S.C. 1503.
So, you can have a protest outside of a Justice's school protesting the war. But targeting the specific Justice for a specific case she has on her docket with a disruptive protest may be found to be illegal
*All* protests are meant to influence decision-making.
Your understanding of the law would render all protests against court cases illegal. That's a pretty pinched understanding of the 1A.
No, his understanding wouldn't render all protests against court cases illegal. Just protests specifically targeting locations the judges or their families would be found. You could protest in the park, for instance, or rent a stadium as a venue.
He's just talking about the sort of "we know where you live!" protests we're discussing here, which no matter how much you deny it, are located where they are specifically to carry a threat that the judges' and their families' personal lives will become hell if they don't comply.
AL is not worthy of your rewriting his comment to not be crazy:
you can have a protest outside a school. But if the purpose and point of that protest is to influence a judicial proceeding, then it's going to be illegal. Under 18 U.S.C. 1503.
His thesis is exactly not what you say it is.
Brett is correct. Sarcastro is not.
If there's ever a question in the future, Sarcastro inevitably will misinterpret comments made by myself and others, in order to present the best possible strawman for him to knock down.
That's...an odd logic to use.
To go from privacy in regards to an abortion, to privacy in regards to a "protest". And since you view that they have violated other people's privacy in regards to an abortion, you feel entirely justified in using quasi-illegal (if not actually illegal) methods and violating their privacy.
I can only wonder if you've truly thought that logic through. Because many of them regard an abortion as murder. And using your train of logic, since you're embracing murder, they would be entirely justified in murdering you.
Now, I don't ascribe to such logic. Personally I consider such tactics and logic reprehensible. But using your logical train of thought, you would justify murder, not only of those who support abortion, but those who are associated with those who support abortion.
Don't twist my words. I have not discussed anything violent or illegal. Protest and social ostracism of Justice Bear It are fully justifiable and appropriate. Her children are a closer question. As I said upthread, I have mixed feelings about that.
And FWIW, few of those who claim to regard an abortion as murder really do so. If they did, they would advocate imposing the criminal penalties applicable to murder for hire upon a woman who hires a physician to perform her abortion.
not guilty....targeting or harassing minor children for what their parent does at work as a course of normal job duties is sickening and morally reprehensible. There is nothing 'close' about it, and the fact that you evidently have mixed feelings (do you really think it is Ok to harass minor children in any circumstance, not guilty?) is a symptom of the moral decay we see in American society.
indeed
Rights can be waived by conduct. The right to familial privacy is undoubtedly important, but those who seek privacy should grant it as well. Justice Amy Coney Bear It plainly does not respect the privacy, personal autonomy and bodily integrity of tens of millions of women of childbearing age. That is egregious, and she, through her rank misogyny, has forfeited any claim to the respect from others of her own private life.
My ambivalence concerns whether that waiver should extend vicariously to her children. Harm or threats of violence would be clearly beyond the pale. Peaceful protest, I'm not so sure.
The sins of the parents shall be visited upon the children now?
"I have very little sympathy for someone who, having chosen the oppressive side of the culture war, would deny rights of privacy to tens of millions of women of childbearing age."
It is OK if we do it. Got it.
The Louisiana and SCOTUS jurists who denied Homer Plessy the right to equal railroad accommodations with white persons have deservedly gone down in infamy. Justice Alito and his compatriots who disregard rights of privacy, personal autonomy and bodily integrity should be similarly shamed. They have chosen the vile side of the culture war and should not be tolerated.
Good thing for you that the Knights of Columbus are a philanthropic civic association of you might become "fair game".
The KC members do have ceremonial swords ... and cool hats.
not guilty, I'll give credit here to the hayseeds. They left Obama's children alone. I was waiting for it, and they got close, but it never happened. Now of course they called Michelle an ape and a transgender man...but...what can you do. So no, Barrett's kids are off limits
The Supreme Court has held that picketing private homes is not protected by the First Amendment. Frisby v. Schultz (1988).
That is not what is being proposed here. A school or a church is not a residence. Frisby v. Schultz split the baby by limiting the applicability of the challenged ordinance to picketing a particular residence, whereas marching on a residential street (on which the target residence is located) remains First Amendment protected.
Picketing a justice's residence is prohibited by a federal statute, but this may be a righteous cause for (non-violent) civil disobedience. The penalty is not onerous, and one juror willing to practice nullification would preclude conviction.
What's a ten year sentence between friends...
It is prudent to read a statute before discussing it. The applicable portion of 18 U.S.C. 1507 states:
Now read 18 U.S.C. 1503...
As I said, it is prudent to read a statute before discussing it. Section 1503(a) states:
I haven't said a word about threats, force, or any threatening letter or communication. And non-violent picketing in a public forum is the epitome of First Amendment protected conduct. United States v. Grace, 461 U.S. 171 (1983). The lawful exercise of expressly protected constitutional rights is the antithesis of acting corruptly.
Don't forget the late Molly Ivins' First Rule of Holes: stop digging.
"I haven't said a word about threats, force, or any threatening letter or communication."
True. But you pointedly left off the first part... "Whoever corruptly".
Are the actions being proposed "corrupt"? Likely yes. “corruptly” means acting with an improper purpose
Keep in mind what is being proposed isn't really "protest" but is "targeted harassment." You can tell by the language and tactics proposed. Invading people's privacy. Going after their kids. This is, make no bones about it, harassment. And harassment can be illegal.
Read my comment again. "The lawful exercise of expressly protected constitutional rights is the antithesis of acting corruptly."
Congress cannot prohibit non-violent picketing in a public forum. To construe 18 U.S.C. 1503 as prohibiting that would be an unconstitutional application of the statute.
I'd stack my antitheistic credentials against anyone, but what exactly do you think you're accomplishing here?
The Roman Catholic <strikeChurch Man Boy Lust Association. You know, the institution that has paid out billions of dollars in damages for enabling its priests to molest its children. That institutional conduct is unmitigated evil. Are they wrought up about abortion because they fear an altar boy shortage?
He is suffering from interminable explosive diarrhea. An exorcism might be warranted but only if done by a Jesuit.
How many states have effective ballot initiative processes? California seems but I uspect many other states don't.
I know in my state I looked into recalls and found it required an impossibly high number of voter signatures in a short time. I haven't looked into ballot initiatives, but I can't recall one initiated by voters.
Twenty Six.
https://ballotpedia.org/States_with_initiative_or_referendum
I am still in the James Carville school of politics and follow the dictum 'its the economy stupid'.
One of the biggest questions that is seldom asked is who should pay for abortions. There are a lot of folks who think abortions are OK as long as they don't have to foot the bill, but when asked to pay extra tax dollars to abortion mills like Planned Parenthood respond with a big NO.
As the economy continues to get worse I suspect the issue of abortion will fade when compared to inflation and taxes.
The abortion rate is close to 1% per woman of childbearing age per year (or .2% of all people per year). Abortions are cheap. Tax-funded abortions are more likely for poor women whose children would go on public assistance anyway. I think taxpayer-funded infanticide is the fiscally sound choice.
Polling shows that since the leak of the draft opinion in Dobbs, a political candidate's position on abortion rights has become a more important voting issue. In the wake of the Supreme Court leak, abortion appears to be a crucial voting issue for more Democratic and liberal voters than for Republican and conservative voters. https://news.gallup.com/poll/393263/abortion-poised-bigger-voting-issue-past.aspx
Perhaps the pro-coat hanger coalition should have paid attention to the maxim, be careful what you ask for.
For the pro-life there's very little that's more important - this is where the political capital is spent, not where it's gathered.
If abortion is SO popular should be no problem enshrining it with an amendment.
So why is that not happening?
I don't think anyone disputes that there are at least 34 senators who would oppose such an amendment.
Yeah, but that's because it isn't "SO" popular. Even most of the people who think it should be legal don't like it. The the actual pro-aborts, people who think you should celebrate abortion, are a noisy minority, like the gays who show up at pride marches.
And, I keep returning to this point: You don't need supermajority public support for something to have a supermajority in the legislature!
Assume 51% of the public were in favor of something, uniformly distributed: Every legislative district would have 51% support for it, and a supermajority of legislators would almost be assured.
OTOH, if 75% of the public wanted something, and they were badly distributed, such that they were just a substantial minority in most districts, and everybody in a minority of districts, reaching a supermajority would be hopeless. (Spoiler: This is how Democrats actually ARE distributed in America!)
Supermajority requirements don't demand that a view have supermajority support. They probe how widely distributed it is, instead.
I am inclined to agree wit hJustice Scalia here. Legislative acts are public acts.
For similar reasons, the states have settled on the Australian Ballot, the Constitution doesn’t require it and a state could make voting public.
I think the Religion Clauses prohibit regarding a church’s decision to excommunicate a member as a harm that government has any tight to take action on.
That said, I think systematic terrorism at the level of the Ku Klux Klan represents an exception that entitles courts to step in to enforce the 15th Amendment, to ensure it doesn’t become a nullity.
But I don’t think ordinary social disapproval, pressure, or ostracism rises to that exceptional level.
"That said, I think systematic terrorism at the level of the Ku Klux Klan represents an exception that entitles courts to step in to enforce the 15th Amendment, to ensure it doesn’t become a nullity."
Then why didn't they during the couple years of BLM riots?
Could you refresh me on when anyone connected with the riots attacked anyone FOR VOTING?
The 15th Amendment a license to address general civil unrest. It doesn’t disturb the Constitution’s requirement that a state’s governor before the president can bring in troops to quell domestic violence.
Further, the BLM riots in general were civil unrest and Domestic violence of a sort within the ordinary parameters of the constitution. The federal government could have intervened to protect a federal courthouse. But otherwise, it was a state matter unless the state specifically asked for federal intervention.
It’s important not to think the sky is falling and the glass can be broken on the constitution’s most drastic emergency powers and we can just send out the troops and start shooting in the streets every time things get a little messy.
Your comment kind of reminds me of QI jurisiprudence; "Sure, we ruled that you can't beat a prisoner to death with a maple baseball bat, but how was the guard to know that it was a violation to beat them to death with a lead pipe, too?"
The BLM riots were systematic public terrorism, even involved using masks and identical clothing to prevent individual perpetrators from being identified, the Klan's exact MO. So the Klan acts were clearly and unambiguously applicable.
And when "autonomous zones" were created with the local police excluded, and ruled by other than the elected government, is that not an attack on the right to vote, and have it mean anything? So much for your effort to distinguish.
Nothing to do with disrupting elections or keeping people from voting.
That said, your characterization of ordinary riots of a sort that have happened periodically in this country - there were anti-draft riots in New York during the Civil War, among many other examples - riots that arose and subsided within a summer - with systematic lynching campaigns that extended over decades, illustrates that you don’t really know much about the Ku Klux Klan and how organized white supremacy operated in this country.
Perhaps you don’t want to know.
It’s like comparing bad food in a school cafeteria with the starvation diet at Auschwitz. The complaining schoolboy has no clue what it’s actually like for people to systematically extract as much work as possible from you while intentionally starving you. If you make this comparison, you have no clue either.
There is no comparison.
Brett, you're really stretching to call riots terrorism.
And also to associate them with BLM.
At this point you're not just "in" denial, you're tunneling under it and heading towards the Earth's core, you're so deep in it.
No, it's not denial to realize that calling this terrorism is wildly hyperbolic.
And BLM did the protests. I know the right likes to conflate the riots and the protests, but that's increasingly becoming more right-wing myth than anything anyone else countenances.
For some reason no hyperbole is too much to hate those BLM folks.
And in general, powers to address extraordinary acts of disenfranchisement through terror should not be interpreted to apply to the kinds of ordinary social pressures that ordinary people face in ordinary life.
You normally have protesters milling about in front of your house at all hours? You must lead a very unusual life.
Abortion is kind of a special topic.
Given that 1) a sizeable fraction of pro-lifers’ views on abortion are grounded in their religions (and are thus fervently held and virtually impervious to rational debate), 2) a sizeable fraction of *that* group views abortion as murder (making anyone advocating more abortion access a facilitator of murder), and 3) once their names are in the public record, it is a simple matter to ‘out’ such murder-facilitators by publishing their names on the internet (and personalized email campaigns designed to maximize social and financial damage to the murder-facilitators also become possible, albeit at higher cost),
I do favor keeping names of signers confidential when the initiative is pro-abortion.
I *tend* to also favor confidentiality in the *anti*-abortion case as a nod to the fact that both sides have fervent zealots, but I could see myself ultimately being convinced either way in the latter case, because I think considerations 1) and 2) apply less strongly to pro-choicers than to pro-lifers.
With Jane's Revenge going around torching pro-life facilities, and that recent poll result, I wouldn't count on your analysis in that second point 2 being sound. There's a pretty substantial minority within the left that view personal destruction in retaliation for political views as perfectly legitimate. (Has been for quite a while, ask Brendon Eich.) And no particular reason to think that personal destruction will be limited to just trying to get people fired, (Already happened to me once.) or Swatting them, which are already starting to be fairly common
The problem here is that firebombing somebody's house, say, isn't the sort of decision that's put up for a vote, so you don't really NEED majority support for it to happen. You just need a significant minority who are up for it, and public dissemination of which houses to firebomb.
Given the presence of that significant minority, doxing people IS a decision to paint a target on their backs. "We know where you live!" protests ARE threats.
And, realistically, intended to be received as such.
Bellmore, time and again you respond to mere proposals for limited gun controls with an assumption they are intended to initiate confiscation, and follow that with threats of armed violence. Given a more-serious right-wing invasion of a woman's medical privacy and personal liberty, why do you expect anything short of the violence you yourself advocate?
Stephen, I assume they're intended to initiate confiscation because I haven't yet developed Alzheimer's, and so recall that the people pushing the 'mere proposals for limited gun controls" actually DO advocate confiscation when they think it isn't politically damaging. See Hillary during the 2016 campaign advocating Australian style gun control, leaving unmentioned that the gun control she was praising actually was confiscation. There are plenty of other examples, so that people who pay attention know what the end game is here.
But the critical difference here is that gun ownership actually IS a constitutional right, explicitly so, and abortion isn't. And I flatly reject any reasoning that pretends otherwise, or that this isn't relevant to how the courts should rule.
Having said that, where have I ever advocated the personal destruction of people for merely advocating gun control? Show where I've even suggested the judiciary should live in fear on account of their refusal to uphold the 2nd amendment?
We're not talking about leftists threatening violence against people who actually enforce laws against abortion. We're talking about them threatening violence against people who merely dissent from the left's views on abortion, or other issues. Against judges who do nothing more than say, "This is an issue for the legislatures, not the courts, to decide."
Jane's Revenge firebombs pregnancy counseling centers over merely not recommending abortion. That's about as far from meeting force with force as you can get. That's the left meeting dissent with violence.
Something the left does increasingly often. I'm pointing out that it's no use for doxers to pretend they're not violent, when the point of doxing is to provide the people who ARE violent with target lists.
When abortion rights supporters resort to arson, vandalism or targeted assassination, that conduct is reprehensible and should be prosecuted vigorously. Those are historically the tactics of anti-abortion extremists who, without irony, blather about being "pro-life." Their criminal conduct should not be emulated.
How many years ago? Are you perhaps referencing events that occurred so long ago that someone could be conceived, born, and now of age to vote since it last happened?
Is May 25, 2022 recent enough? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reward-offered-find-woman-video-wyoming-abortion-clinic-fire-rcna32701
The most recent fatal shootings occurred on November 27, 2015. The assassin fired 198 rounds in the attack, killing three people and wounding nine, and tried to blow up propane tanks in order to take out law enforcement vehicles during a five-hour standoff. https://www.denverpost.com/2021/09/16/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting-incompetent/
Follow the science was the dogmatic chant the Left proselytized, particularly to those who were skeptical about COVID vaccines. It is curious (or is it predictable?) that the Left adamantly refuses educating Americans about life beginning when 23 chromosomes from a sperm fuse with 23 chromosomes within an egg, thereby initiating all of the wondrous metabolic, biochemical, genetic, enzymatic, molecular, physiological and anatomical processes that ipso facto define life.
"...the Left adamantly refuses educating Americans about [embryology etc.]...":
Yatasubes, given the political leanings of most US university faculties, the truth is almost certainly the opposite. It is highly likely that most of the people with a non-superficial understanding of the (yes, marvelous) processes to which you allude, learned about them primarily from left-leaning professors.
Even if your quoted statement *were* correct, that would *still* imply exactly nothing about the point at which interrupting those processes reaches any given level of moral salience.
Clarification: In my final sentence I should have said “…considerations *analogous to* 1) and 2)…”.
In Massachusetts we had both official and organized unofficial retaliation against people who signed a petition to overturn the state Supreme Court's same sex marriage decision. As far as I know the law making signatures public remains unchanged.
What was the official retaliation?
I think abortion is that person's right. based on the view of conscience, of course abortion is strictly prohibited. regards, LINKSLOT99.