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Va. Judge Finds Probable Cause That "Court of Mist and Fury" and "Gender Queer" Are "Obscene for … Minors"
This finding is now being used as a basis for seeking a restraining order banning Barnes & Noble from distributing the books to minors. Is that constitutional?
Here's the order for A Court of Mist and Fury (with the author's address redacted); the one for Gender Queer, A Memoir is similar, and is on p. 5 of this filing.
The orders were obtained by Virginia state legislator Tim Anderson and Tommy Altman, a congressional candidate; see here for Del. Anderson's post about this, which also includes excerpts of some of what he views as obscene-as-to-minors in the books. Anderson and Altman are now using the probable cause finding in seeking temporary restraining orders that would bar Barnes & Noble from engaging in "sale or distribution to minors" of the books. How would one analyze this under existing First Amendment rules (whatever one might think of them)?
[A.] The Supreme Court has held that the First Amendment does not protect the distribution of "obscenity," a narrow category that basically covers hard-core pornography. To be obscenity, a work must satisfy all three of the following elements, largely drawn from Miller v. California (1973), though with extra detail added by Smith v. U.S. (1977), Pope v. Illinois (1987), and Brockett v. Spokane Arcades, Inc. (1985):
- "the [a] average person, [b] applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, [c] taken as a whole, [d] appeals to the prurient interest" (which means a "shameful or morbid" interest in sex as opposed to a "normal, healthy" interest);
- "the work depicts or describes, [a] in a patently offensive way [under [b] contemporary community standards], [c] sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law"; and
- "the work, [a] taken as a whole, [b] lacks serious [c] literary, artistic, political, or scientific value[, [d] applying national standards and not just community standards]."
I don't like this exception for many reasons, including that its terms are so vague; but I don't make the law, I just report on it.
[B.] The Court has also held that the law may bar distribution to minors of sexually themed material, if it fits within what is basically the Miller test with "of minors" or "for minors" added to each prong (e.g., "the work taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors"). Ginsberg v. New York (1968), a pre-Miller case, upheld a law that implemented the then-current obscenity test with "to minors" added at the end of each prong; most lower courts and commentators have assumed that Ginsberg plus Miller justify laws that implement the Miller-based test with "to minors" added to each prong as well.
This is a completely different exception from the one for child pornography, which focuses not on the recipient of the material but on the person depicted in the material. The child pornography exception is limited to "visual[] depict[ions]" of actual children below the age of majority (and not just fictional pictures or pictures of adults who look like children) "performing sexual acts or lewdly exhibiting their genitals." See New York v. Ferber (1982); Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition (2002).
[C.] This having been said, the "obscene as to minors" exception is still quite narrow. Indeed, the Virginia Supreme Court held in Commonwealth v. American Booksellers Ass'n, Inc. (Va. 1988), that
- the exception, as implemented in state law, doesn't cover books that have "serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for a legitimate minority of normal, older adolescents," and
- "[a] publication must be judged for obscenity as a whole, … and not on the basis of isolated passages," which in context applies to obscenity-as-to-minors as well (indeed, the Virginia statute recognizes this, requiring a showing that the work "predominantly appeals to the prurient, shameful or morbid interest of juveniles" (emphasis added)).
It's thus not enough that some passages are seen as appealing to a shameful or morbid interest in sex, or that the books are seen as unsuitable for younger minors. I haven't read the books, but my guess, based on press accounts, is that they shouldn't be seen as covered by Virginia obscene-as-to-minors law (despite the trial judge's finding of probable cause).
[D.] And I think it's even clearer that the First Amendment would forbid a temporary restraining order against selling the books to juveniles—an order that could, as with TROs generally, be entered based on mere probable success on the merits, rather than based on a full trial. Indeed, in Vance v. Universal Amusement Co. (1980) the Court struck down a regime that allowed such orders:
[The Texas law allowing injunctions against the showing of movies based on a showing of probable obscenity] authorizes prior restraints of indefinite duration on the exhibition of motion pictures that have not been finally adjudicated to be obscene. Presumably, an exhibitor would be required to obey such an order pending review of its merits and would be subject to contempt proceedings even if the film is ultimately found to be nonobscene. Such prior restraints would be more onerous and more objectionable than the threat of criminal sanctions after a film has been exhibited, since nonobscenity would be a defense to any criminal prosecution.
Nor does the fact that the temporary prior restraint is entered by a state trial judge rather than an administrative censor sufficiently distinguish this case from Freedman v. Maryland (1965) [a case that generally condemned such prior restraints, at least unless state law provides for procedural protections that seem absent in Virginia, and were absent in the Texas scheme struck down in Vance -EV]. "Any system of prior restraints of expression comes to this Court bearing a heavy presumption against its constitutional validity." That a state trial judge might be thought more likely than an administrative censor to determine accurately that a work is obscene does not change the unconstitutional character of the restraint if erroneously entered.
I should note that Virginia law seems to authorize the probable-cause findings entered by the judge in this case only in outright obscenity cases, and not obscenity-as-to-minors cases (which appear in a different article of the Virginia code). That might be an independent basis for invalidating the probable cause findings, and thus denying the TRO.
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I never heard of these books. Now, I have to get them.
I am writing a book. When it flops, I will get a friend to sue to prevent its distribution.
Do kids imitate? They don't know anything. How do they learn? They memorize books, advice, and lectures? Expect butt banging on the elementary school bus now.
K guys, here's your chance to prove that you care about censorship on principle, and not just when it serves your political leanings!
I'm perfectly fine with BandN carrying this book and I find the whole legal concept of 'obscenity' absurd.
So you are okay with 10 year old kids being able to buy outright pornography?
Personally, I find the legal concept of "obscentity" to be overly broad and subjective.
However, that said, as long as it is considered constitutionally permissible to restrict the sale of Playboy and Hustler to minors, I don't see how there can be a constitutional problem with similar restrictions on books that have been legally deemed obscene.
No, I just think access should be controlled by parents and perhaps store policies. It's not the place or role of government to determine what someone can, and can not see regardless of age.
Again, as long as it is seen as constitutionally permissible to legally restrict the sale of Playboy and Hustler magazines to minors, I don't see how you can distinguish books such that it would be unconstitutional to ever restrict the sale of any book to a minor regardless of content.
I don't see how you can distinguish books such that it would be unconstitutional to ever restrict the sale of any book to a minor regardless of content
Do you know anything about these books, or is this just your sense? I know gender queer and it's no Hustler.
Doesn’t it teach 5 & 6 year olds to give blow jobs and take it anally?
It's a general principle. Whether these specific books are or aren't obscene as to minors is not relevant to my point.
If it's constitutional to restrict the sale of porn magazines to minors, I don't see how it can be unconstitutional in respect to books properly judged to be obscene.
If you want to contest whether or not these books should be considered obscene, I see that as a completely separate avenue of challenge/ argument.
Except these books clearly DO NOT meet the test for being obscene, or even particularly pornographic. What's more, the case for finding these works "obscene as to minors" is based upon taking excerpts out of context rather than looking at the works as a whole -- the exact opposite of what the test requires.
And before you ask, I've actually read the books in question and understand the context of the passages objected to.
re: "So you are okay with 10 year old kids being able to buy outright pornography?"
As a normative matter, yes. I say that because most kids won't want to buy pornography. Below a certain stage of development, kids just aren't interested in that stuff (except as a way to freak out their parents). Once they reach the stage to be interested in sex, then they can no longer really be harmed by seeing sex. Laws against minors buying erotic books never really made sense to me.
And I could support that position, but it's not the current state of the law, so I have a hard time seeing on what basis a court would call this case unconstitutional.
"Legally deemed obscene."
So, you're in favor of full, state-enforced censorship, as long as some judge somewhere decides that something counts as "obscene." Which would seem to apply just as easily to adults as to minors.
No, and since they aren't seeking to bar B&N from selling these books to adults, I don't see it as a case of state enforced censorship. There is a lot of printed material that is already legally restricted as to sale to minors. If those restrictions are constitutional, what makes this case unconstitutional?
If you want to argue that the books shouldn't be restricted because they aren't obscene, that's a different argument than the constitutional question.
So... maybe not you, but a lot of people on the right have been convinced that they're being victimized by Facebook and Twitter for censorship, not because it's unconstitutional, but on general free-speech principles.
So take the constitution out of it. You're ok with a judge telling a bookstore not to sell particular books to particular people, but you're not ok with a bookstore making that decision on its own (which is the equivalent of the social media situation)?
"However, that said, as long as it is considered constitutionally permissible to restrict the sale of Playboy and Hustler to minors, I don't see how there can be a constitutional problem with similar restrictions on books that have been legally deemed obscene."
My understanding is that "obscene" material has no protection under the 1A and thus may be subject to an outright ban, but material that is merely "incecent" may be regulated although not prohibited.
So, I don't understand why the court needed to find the material obscene in order to regulate it.
That said, my understanding is based on the Pacifica "Seven dirty words" case and that was a long time ago and legal standards may have changed in the interim. But contemporary standards seem to be less puritanical than then, so I find this ruling surprising.
They aren't trying to block B&N from carrying the books and selling them to adults.
There are other materials that B&N could carry that can't legally be sold to minors.
I could apply the same cherry-picking standard to the Bible that was applied to these books and make just as strong a case for "obscene with regards to minor". But in the context of the entire work, neither of the challenged book (nor the Bible) are utterly devoid of literary, artistic, or other value.
Ah, yes.
I recall my pre-adolescent journals into the woods near my house, digging up stacks of old Playboys from their sealed plastic coffins.
But then some kid would wander up and start reading to us from the Book of Psalms and we'd drop the Playboys and sit in rapt attention.
If you think this isn't political, you've been drinking the urine that was the Kool-Aid that Tucker Carlson's been drinking.
Ironic that the original Kool-aid drinkers were leftists in Jim Jones' church.
Now leftists argue that preventing the sale of obscenity to children is political -- admitting that they favor it.
The left has always been on the side of free speech when it comes to government censorship, including when it comes to pornography, and movies, and rock music and rap, and video games, and dungeons-and-dragons, and drug references, and TV, and US History, and George Carlin, and J. D. Salinger, and all the other dangerous speech that the right has been trying to protect us from since the beginning of time. Not sure what you think there is to admit, the left is adamantly pro-1A.
Because, sure, if you don’t think 6 year olds should be seeing images of people fucking then obviously you’re a censorious jerk. Because politics insists that there are no reasonable limits on anything at all. Messing up the kids to own the cons/libs.
Google around a bit - Gender Queer is basically PG. Like, the same amount of people fucking as the movie Starman.
People who don't need weasel words don't use weasel words.
To be specific: Gender Queer contains an illustration of a man with another man's dick in his mouth. It's a close up. This would not be allowed in a "PG" movie.
Starman has sex implied but off camera. It has nudity-- pictures of a man's ass. But it does not show actual sex. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088172/parentalguide
The "P" in PG stands for "parental."
That seems lost on you.
Can I just use this opportunity to say the Court of Mist and Fury sucks? The first book in the series was decent, if nothing to write home about, but the author botched her later books because she doesn't have a clue how to write nuance into her characters. The second she decided she liked the villain better than the hero, the hero started being mustache twirlingly evil and the villain started shitting rainbows.
I enjoyed the first book quite a lot, but I gave up on the second one. I agree with your comment about the lack of nuance.
I agree: Court of Mist and Fury lacks nuance and that lack of nuance has an effect on my overall evaluation about its suitability for minors.
One of the recipients of the TRO application is the Clerk of the Virginia Beach School Board. Is the plaintiff (petitioner) trying to get the book out of school libraries?
I'd thought we'd left behind the old bigoted stereotype of "gays are pedophiles" a long time ago.
I wonder whether either of the two conservative southern Republicans who engineered this censorship are smart enough to recognize that the Bible should be banned by their knuckle-dragging standards, or have the integrity to acknowledge that point?
The Old Testament is downright raunchy in places.
That must be why we can't keep kids from sneaking off to read the Bible.
Could I sit in the park on a bench and read the book allowed to the various children as they play? Is this something the principal would read over the loudspeaker to the children during lunch time? If this would be allowed, could the principal read Penthouse forum aloud to the kids?
There has to be some line as to what others make available to children for their reading "pleasure". If parents want to allow their children to read these books under their supervision so they can answer difficult questions, then so be it (even though I think it is harmful to read such to children under a certain age since they have no concept of sexual interactions unless introduced to it by an adult).
However, I think in school or public libraries, these books should be on a "restricted" list where children cannot access them without parental permission. And, teachers should definitely not be reading them to children or promoting these books to children below high school age, anymore than they should be reading Penthouse to the children. Kids will figure it all out when they are naturally old enough to do so.
Penthouse or the Bible. Not much difference in this context.
What do you mean by "these books?" What is it about these books that you find objectionable to children? How about "I need a new butt?" It's a humorous book written for minors that talks about a part of their anatomy they're firmly familiar with. Would you fire a teacher for reading something called "I need a new foot?"
If a parent doesn't want their kids learning about society and about the variety of different kinds of people of color, faith, ability, and yes, even those with a bit more fabulousness than normal, they should send them to private school or home school them. Otherwise, we end up with education based on the beliefs of the lowest common denominator.
Which is precisely want the conservatives want, because they are the lowest common denominator. For a little while longer, anyway.
New tactic.
Quit trying to get rid of the books, and file criminal charges against the groomers.
We’ll have to scramble to find people to be at the pulpit on Sundays after we do that, but sure.
Are you talking about the Catholics, or the Southern Baptists, or the evangelicals, or some other denomination?
Because all religious people are pedos. Asshole.
You think you’re an anti-bigot but you’re really just a bigot. If you’re politically zealous, odds are the hypocrisy involved means you are the thing you hate.
Not all of them, not nearly. But there seems to be something about superstition-based organizations (and the people they attract) that promotes profoundly ugly conduct and disgusting, immoral responses to that conduct.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
See, Art? You too are exactly the thing that you hate.
I’m an engineer. I’ve always chosen reason and objectivity.
You should try a little self awareness.
Well put.
A Court of Mist and Fury? "Obscene"? Restricted viewing for minors? What?!?!
OK, there are some racy passages. And it's likely inappropriate for a 10 year old. But for a 17 year old? I don't know what the judge is thinking here....
This isn't the Story of O or Penthouse Forums......
Conservatives just can't control themselves. They're advancing too fast on the culture wars, leaving themselves exposed - like Russia charging towards Kyiv.
If you had taken a year or two to let these school library and curriculum fights settle down, then you'd have moved popular opinion to accepting further censorship. But now conservatives are just going to court to get books declared "obscene" and restricted from distribution! How is this not a plain violation of First Amendment principles, in conservatives' eyes? Do y'all care about the Constitution, or not?
"But now conservatives are just going to court to get books declared "obscene" and restricted from distribution!"
They are only seeking to restrict distribution to minors, not adults.
"How is this not a plain violation of First Amendment principles, in conservatives' eyes?"
There are already a lot of long standing restrictions against distributing certain printed materials to minors. The courts have upheld these restrictions.
Perhaps someone can explain how a court can order a newspaper to print anything when they are not a party to the case?
The Court didn't order a newspaper to do anything. It ordered the petitioner to pay a newspaper to publish the notice. Some newspapers make a decent amount of money running such legal notices.
"Probable Clause"?
Yeah, this is stupid and unconstitutional. Deciding what books do and do not go in public and/or school libraries and/or curriculums is not book banning, but this is book banning.
Not really.
The books aren't banned. You can read them.
They aren't even banned for minors. Minors can read them.
It is just a step to encourage parents to have some role in what their kids are reading.
I've read this book specifically because it has been discussed so much. I don't think it meets the three point criteria for obscenity.
However I think it also should not be stocked on library shelves for kids below the age of 16. Nor should it be assigned reading in any classroom. Nor should it be stocked on a teachers person shelf for kids below the age of 16. The reason I think it should not be stocked in these locations is because of the cartoon of on man with a another man's dick in his mouth shown as a close up.
I would be against similar depictions of oral sex between heterosexual couples being stocked in high schools.
I know kids can get similar material elsewhere, but people can buy Penthouse and Playboy elsewhere or see similar materials online. That doesn't mean the school library should stock them. Libraries make selections of books to buy from limited resources; this doesn't belong on those particular shelves. Not having it stocked there is no more censorship than not stocking Virgil in Latin.
But I think the book does not meet the standard of "obscenity" likey even if you add "minor" to it. It can definitely be argued the topic is appropriate for at least some kids above 14. I doubt it's appropriate for 12 year olds.
"which means a "shameful or morbid" interest in sex"
I was raised Catholic. What else is there?