The Volokh Conspiracy
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When Is it a Taking of Private Property to Bar a Property Owner from Excluding Unwanted Visitors?
Understanding the scope of Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid.
A comment on the Rumsfeld v. FAIR thread reminded me that there's some confusion about this question, especially in light of last year's Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid decision. Cedar Point held that a regulation providing that "[a]gricultural employers must allow union organizers onto their property for up to three hours per day, 120 days per year" "constitutes a per se physical taking" of private property and thus requires the government to pay "just compensation" to the property owners. What is the scope of that (and might it be relevant to requirements that social media platforms allow users or user posts that they don't want)?
The general rule, to oversimplify a bit, is that
- it's a taking (which triggers a duty to compensate) when the government "grant[s] a right to invade property closed to the public," but
- it's not a taking when the government provides greater access rights for property that is already "generally open to the public."
The key precedent on this second point is PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980), which upheld a California rule requiring shopping center owners to let leafleters and signature gatherers onto their publicly accessible property. Cedar Point distinguished PruneYard:
Unlike the growers' properties, the PruneYard was open to the public, welcoming some 25,000 patrons a day. Limitations on how a business generally open to the public may treat individuals on the premises are readily distinguishable from regulations granting a right to invade property closed to the public. See Horne v. Dep't of Agriculture (2013) (distinguishing PruneYard as involving "an already publicly accessible" business); Nollan v. Cal. Coastal Comm'n (1987) (same).
And the Cedar Point Nursery Court explained that public accommodation laws, which require businesses that are open to the public to allow patrons whom they would rather exclude, are governed by the same principle: It expressly cited, right before its discussion of PruneYard, Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. U.S. (1964), as "rejecting [a] claim that provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibiting racial discrimination in public accommodations effected a taking."
Of course, even regulations that aren't "per se takings" (which categorically require compensation) might sometimes be viewed as "regulatory takings" and require just compensation on that theory. But to prevail, the claimant must satisfy the highly government-friendly regulatory takings balancing test, which generally requires a showing that the regulation would have a vast economic impact. And in PruneYard, the court held that the access mandate didn't qualify as a taking under this balancing test:
Here the requirement that appellants permit appellees to exercise state-protected rights of free expression and petition on shopping center property clearly does not amount to an unconstitutional infringement of appellants' property rights under the Taking Clause. There is nothing to suggest that preventing appellants from prohibiting this sort of activity will unreasonably impair the value or use of their property as a shopping center. The PruneYard is a large commercial complex that covers several city blocks, contains numerous separate business establishments, and is open to the public at large. The decision of the California Supreme Court makes it clear that the PruneYard may restrict expressive activity by adopting time, place, and manner regulations that will minimize any interference with its commercial functions….
A State is, of course, bound by the Just Compensation Clause of the Fifth Amendment, but here appellants have failed to demonstrate that the "right to exclude others" is so essential to the use or economic value of their property that the state-authorized limitation of it amounted to a "taking."
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So was it the size of the property that justified Prune Yard? would the same reasoning apply to a smaller property that was also open to the public?
A State is, of course, bound by the Just Compensation Clause of the Fifth Amendment, but here appellants have failed to demonstrate that the "right to exclude others" is so essential to the use or economic value of their property that the state-authorized limitation of it amounted to a "taking."
It's fairly clear to me that the balancing test they are applying here is how essential it is to the economic value of the property to be able to exclude people you don't want on the property. A business on a smaller property might have a stronger case that people looking to make expressive statements would interfere with the business if they were allowed anywhere on the premises at all. At a large commercial complex like PruneYard, that case didn't hold up.
I understand the logic of your argument but it still doesn't seem right to me that the courts can decide that, based on the size of the private property in question. Seems like a double standard.
When the government supported slavery, Jim Crow, antidiscrimination, wokism, the Supreme Court ruled in its favor. This garbage court has no external validation. It is just a corrupt agent of the central government, a wholly owned subsidiary of the rent seeking lawyer profession.
"2. it's not a taking when the government provides greater access rights for property that is already "generally open to the public."
Made up shit by a garbage court devoid of any constitutional or empirical validation. Hey, Ivy indoctrinated scumbags, property is defined by the ability to exclude. Read the legal dictionary, big government scumbags. They said that themselves. They are not even consistent with themselves.
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1492&context=nlr
No? Where are you getting that from?
Obviously not an attorney and therefore I am unfamiliar with much of what is posted on this site (decisions, precedents etc.).
In general I would say that I am of the same opinion as to much of the law as my screen name implies.
As for your question, I inferred it from the following:
"There is nothing to suggest that preventing appellants from prohibiting this sort of activity will unreasonably impair the value or use of their property as a shopping center. The PruneYard is a large commercial complex that covers several city blocks, contains numerous separate business establishments, and is open to the public at large.".
This seems to imply that because of the size of the property the activities in question do not place an undue burden on the property owners.
The most important bit is "and is open to the public at large.", not the size of the property.
Were it not open to the general public the size would matter not at all.
I don't think it's just the size of the property, it's also it's normal use, for instance a single Walmart or Costco may be as large or much larger as the common area of a shopping center. But they use all the floor space for shelves, displays aisles etc, so allowing a free speech zone inside would be disruptive. Shopping centers on the other hand generally have a lot more open space for congregating, conversations, sitting, listening to live music, etc.
I'm not saying I agree with Pruneyard, but I can certainly see that allowing advocacy groups some sort of access would be a lot less disruptive for a
common area in shopping ceter than even a much larger area being used as a retail space for a Walmart.
There’s an obvious difference between Rumsfeld and Cedar Point, so obvious it’s disingenuous to try to compare the two.
Like any discrimination law, the Solomon Amendment at issue in Rumsfeld prohibites peoperty ownees who generally opened their properties to the public for business purposes from selectively carving out members of a protected group from disfavored treatment and exclusion. Analogous to common carriwr and public utility laws, discrimination laws don’t involve a taken becUse the peopeety owners are already opening their properties up to the general public.
Cedar Point involves a totally different situations. Property owners who don’t do business with the general public and don’t generally admit the public to their property are being requires to admit a group designated by the government, and nobody else.
That’s tbe difference. No analogy to a co
Mon carrier or puiblic utility in Cedar Point S there was in Rumsfeld.
It's actually Hassid (double 's")
Whoops, fixed, thanks!
Don't forget lockdowntakings of labor: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3567003
Why do so many people capitalize the Y in Pruneyard, and when did that start? The shopping center's web page doesn't capitalize it, and it is not capitalized in the California Supreme Court opinion. It seems to be capitalized in the US Supreme Court opinion. Curious.
Maybe blame Latham & Watkins? PruneYard's brief before the Court called it "PruneYard"; perhaps that's where it started.
It was apparently originally "PruneYard" but I do not know when it changed. Perhaps after the original filings and before the SC decision if we want to be charitable, but probably after both.
I'm not going to jump into the mess of the previous post's comments, but I wanted to point this out:
If your article claiming that the Texas anti-censoring by social media companies law is "Unconstitutional" doesn't even mention the Pruneyard case, then it's obvious trash, and so are you, teh author of that trash piece.
This of course does NOT apply to EV.
It does apply to others who post here.
Because the TX law looks like a straightforward extension of Pruneyard. And if you disagree, you need to actually make that case, not pretend it doesn't exist
I want social media companies to be legally banned from discrimination against mainstream political views, but I do not think the claims in your comment are right.
The Court has always been more protective of First Amendment rights than property rights, whether those are protected by the Fourth Amendment or the Fifth. PruneYard is a 5A case, so I think someone wanting to extend its rationale to social media companies bears the burden of explaining why it holds -- under current or reasonable jurisprudence -- to speech just as much as it does to real property.
There may be similarities, but it is certainly not a straightforward extension. Most importantly the issue involved is a completely different amendment. PruneYard is a takings case under the 5th, and the social media laws would be free speech under the 1st. And Takings and Free speech are not related to say it is a straightforward extension.
I don't know where I fall on the 1st amendment constitutional question. I lean towards thinking it is unconstitutional. But PruneYard is pretty much inapposite to the question.
mse326: PruneYard talked about both the Takings Clause question and the First Amendment compelled hosting question, right? That seems to me to make it pretty apposite to the First Amendment issue, for reasons I discuss in pp. 416-20 of this article.
I've honestly only even seen PruneYard mentioned in a takings context, so I did miss that aspect. But I was also reading both of Greg J's comments together where the latter speaks only of the takings argument. That is where I think it is inapposite.
I still feel that that a social media platform being there to facilitate speech is different than a shopping centers property. And those differences I believe give the social media platforms greater first amendment rights over hosting. To me it sits somewhere in the middle of PruneYard and for instance a letter's to the editor section of a newspaper. I don't think it is a straightforward extension in so much as they're obviously the same but I do agree that the first amendment analysis in PruneYard is certainly apposite and an important point for the question and the opposite view.
Did it talk about malls being modern town squares? And now, large media companies not just are, but set out to be, even more modern virtual town squares.
I don't think government could force the issue, here or then. But it seems logical with that reasoning.
...so are social media sites "open to the public" or are the members only clubs? Clubs where your membership is conditioned on your agreeing to terms of service dictated by the site.
That's an important question - and not easily answered.
In my opinion, requiring agreement to terms of service is not sufficient to make them members-only clubs. Consider that the local mall requires you to abide by their terms of service while you are on their property. Individual stores and restaurants can also set their own conditions and requirements for dress, behavior, etc. Yet they are quintessential examples of "open to the public".
You have a stronger case for apps and sites that charge more-than-nominal fees or that actively vet prospective members before accepting applications. But that does not describe the business models of Twitter, Facebook or Google.
The one thing I agree with here is that the TX law is an extension of Pruneyard. Not a mere application of it.
Let's apply this to the Texas anti-social media censorship law
We start by recalling that Twitter gives you the ability to block people (they can't see your tweets, you can't see theirs), mute people (you don't' see anything they do), and even filter out tweets based on the words in them
Facebook lets you ignore people, block them from commenting on your postings, even block them from seeing your postings.
As opposed to the Pruneyard, where you can't make the petitioners magically disappear from your view:
Here the requirement that appellants permit appellees to exercise state-protected rights of free expression and petition on [social media] property clearly does not amount to an unconstitutional infringement of appellants' property rights under the Taking Clause. There is nothing to suggest that preventing appellants from prohibiting this sort of activity will unreasonably impair the value or use of their property as a [place for social interaction]. [Facebook / Twitter / TikTok / etc] is a large commercial complex that [has hundreds of thousands of postings a day], contains [hundreds of thousands of different people posting and reading], and is open to the public at large. The decision of the [Texas State Legislature / Supreme Court] makes it clear that the [social media companies] may restrict expressive activity by adopting [muting and blocking functions] that will minimize any interference with its commercial functions….
A State is, of course, bound by the Just Compensation Clause of the Fifth Amendment, but here appellants have failed to demonstrate that the "right to exclude others" is so essential to the use or economic value of their property that the state-authorized limitation of it amounted to a "taking."
Looks pretty clear to me
"But I don't want to be on a Social Media site where those icky Republicans get to post their evil ideas!"
Well, the Pruneyard excluded petitioners because their customers didn't want to have their day interrupted by people pushing politics.
CA, the CA Supreme Court, and SCOTUS ruled that neither the Pruneyard nor its customers had the right to make that demand. So I see no reason why Facebook, Twitter, or you should have the right to make your demand.
Heck, the petitioners at the Pruneyard weren't going there to shop, and so weren't making the Pruneyard any money.
Whereas those conservatives on Twitter will be just as "monetizable" as every other user, so the TX law is less of an imposition on Twitter than Pruneyard was on the Pruneyard
So the key point here is being generally open to the public.
And it's true the Solomon Amendment only said the military recruiters must be given the same access as other employers, which would seem to fall under this rule. If the law had said that universities must allow recruiters regardless of whether they allow other non-students onto the campus, then it would've been a 5th Amendment taking?
I'm actually more interested in the "just compensation" analysis. If I were a judge, what would be fair compensation, if union organizers (or anti-union advocates, in my already-unionized 1,000-man business) were to come into my property? $1.00 per day? $1,000 per day? $10,000 per day? I mean, if people are coming into my business and talking to my workers when they should be, well, working, then I think I'm owed significant money...I'd be paying my workers their normal wages to listen to the pro-/anti-union messages, after all. If these people are only talking to my workers during lunch or their normal break periods, then we're much closer to the $1/day amount. It's hard to argue that I, as the business owner have any meaningful trespass to my property, when 1,005 people (ie, 5 extra people coming in, to speak to my workers) rather than the normal 1,000. (My feeling butt-hurt, at having unwanted visitors insist their way into my business--while very important to me--is not the same as suffering actual damages.)
When the government sends inspectors in, for my annual scheduled inspection (plus the 2 random inspections I get in a normal year); do I get compensation for those as well? I mean, now we are talking about *significant* economic loss to me and my business. I have to shut down most of my plant/farm/business for 2 hours during each scheduled/surprise visit, to accommodate those inspections. Don't get me wrong--I completely support those inspections...it keeps me honest, it helps ensure my workers are in a safe environment. And, frankly, since some of my competitors are unethical and can undercut my bids by skimping on safety measures; the more inspections that are done on everyone, the better my business will do. But just because inspectors coming on to my property is a good thing does not, of course, mean that there's no taking.
You point out why Takings does not work very well in this context. There is no conceptual difference, from a Takings perspective, between compelling union organizer access, girl scout cookie sales access, and state or federal inspector/busybody access.
Lost in all this is the 1st Amendment protection of freedom of association which numerous SCOTUSs have routinely ignored to uphold the Public Accommodations violations of property rights.
If I as a consumer can legally refuse to patronize any given business for any reason from the mundane to the outright bigoted, I as a producer have a mirror right to exclude anyone for reasons spanning the same spectrum.
At least I do in a just country...
The left has decided that a gay man's right to have you bake him a cake to celebrate his sodomy based marriage overrides your property rights.
We had that for a while. Jim Crow Laws did not make for a very just country.