The Volokh Conspiracy
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Lael Weinberger Guest-Blogging About "The Limits of Church Autonomy"
I'm delighted to report that Lael Weinberger (Olin-Searle-Smith Fellow in Law & Lecturer, Harvard Law School) will be guest-blogging this coming week on this forthcoming Notre Dame Law Review article of his; the abstract:
American courts apply "church autonomy doctrine" to protect the self-governance of religious institutions, based on both of the First Amendment's religion clauses. Church autonomy's defenders have sometimes described the doctrine as establishing distinct spheres of sovereignty for church and state. But critics have argued that church autonomy puts religious institutions above the law. They contend that church autonomy doctrine lacks limiting principles and worry that the "sphere sovereignty" theory of church and state leaves no room for accountability for wrongdoing in religious institutions. The courts, for their part, have recognized that church autonomy must have limits but have struggled to articulate them, leaving the case law in a state of ferment.
This article makes the case that, contrary to the critics, church autonomy is limited by an accountability principle, itself resting on the same bases that have been used to defend the most robust version of church autonomy. First, the social pluralist theory of sphere sovereignty does not just defend a place for religious institutions to exercise their own self-governance over religious matters; it also has an important place for the state to hold wrongdoers accountable for civil harms. Second, the deep history of church-state relations that has shaped the pro-church autonomy caselaw and scholarship alike also has rich resources to defend a principle of accountability.
After presenting the theoretical case for the coexistence of autonomy and accountability principles, this article presents a doctrinal roadmap for how courts can locate the limits of church autonomy. Drawing on doctrinal elements already present in the case law, the approach outlined here can be applied to provide accountability and limit church autonomy in key cases—and it can be done without contradicting any existing Supreme Court doctrine.
I much look forward to his posts!
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IANAL. I find it interesting that freedom of the press has been extended to include all of the general public, not just those with establishment media credentials, which I think might not have been accepted 50, 100, or 200 years ago. Or at least not to those without a printing press. But I could be wrong.
This seems to me (IANAL!!!) in contrast to freedom of religion being still limited to religion, not personal philosophy, which seems like the obvious extension similar to freedom of the press. If someone can show any kind of religious tie to his claim of exceptionality, no matter how odd the church is (I think even the Flying Spaghetti Monster has been recognized once or twice), that's good to go; but to just say "my personal beliefs say ..." is not good enough.
I wonder what the precedents will be in 50 or 100 years.
Freedom of religion does extend to personal religion, even when that is not part of any established sect or creed (as long as it's sincerely held). While it would be convenient for the non-religious to have that deference extend to personal philosophy, that extension would be contrary to originalism and textualism.
Iirc atheism suffers first amendment protection of religion, and not just because of freedom of speech. We atheists like to joke atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby, but neverrtheless...
That bon mot might make sense if we were talking agnosticism. Actual atheism, with its affirmative claim that there isn't a God, is more religiony than that.
Is it a religion to affirmatively deny the existence of the Easter Bunny? Because here's how an atheist would answer the question:
I cannot prove that there is no God, just as I cannot prove that there is no Easter Bunny. What I can say is that I don't believe in things for which there's no good evidence.
Right, and the difference between agnosticism and atheism is that agnosticism is "don't believe that" and atheism is "believe that not"; The agnostic doesn't believe, the atheist has an affirmative belief to the contrary.
I affirmatively disbelieve the existence of the Easter Bunny. Is that a religious belief?
And candidly, I don't even care for the term atheist because it ascribes far more importance to religion than I think religion deserves. There's a long list of things I don't believe in: Santa, weather predictions by groundhogs, astrology, phrenology, palm reading, mermaids, pink unicorns -- but we don't have special words for any of them. Try defining me by what I do believe rather than the long list of things I don't believe.
I think we call that "heresy."
Brett, Hmmm. You know, on the subject of religion, we're likely in 99.99% agreement. That is, you believe there's insufficient evidence to support belief in the existence of 10,000 different gods and religions. I believe there's insufficient evidence to support belief in the existence of 10,001.
Please accept my sincere best wishes that you find comfort and understanding in the religion you find the most convincing, or in none if that's your path of growth. I'll cheerfully accept your best wishes (call them prayers if you'd like) that I receive evidence permitting me to believe your particular 1 of 10,000 gods proves true, however unlikely I think that may be.
And that is one of many reasons I find it difficult to believe in God. If he exists, he sure isn't doing much to make me aware of his existence. Or of any demands he may have for his life.
I have an atheist sister and a born-again sister; both are very religious. A born-again brother once accused me of being agnostic, and I corrected him -- I am areligious, a don't-give-a-shitist. There is a huge difference. My two sisters would both be horrified at the prospect of being converted overnight by some magic ray gun. I could literally not care less, other than the concomitant bother of having to buy a bible, find a church, etc.
Of course, their are pseudo-atheists, or atheist-lites, whatever you want to call them, who do care a little and probably are actually agnostics, but never worry much about it.
I once resisted being called an Atheist’—like many, used ‘Agnostic’ instead—because it seemed both to presumptuously assume an unknowable truth, and to inherently contain an aggressive attack on believers. (At my core, I have a repulsion of being considered needlessly discourteous.)
I later came to understand, however, that...
1) While some people may express an certainty that no god exists, such an absolute certainty is not a principle of atheism (that’s closer to the ‘Faith’ of the religionist).
2) No matter the certainty and intensity with which a person expresses a belief, it is neither discourteous nor intolerant to simply decline to accept extraordinary claims based only on assertion and opinion.
As the risk of moving into No True Scotsman territory, atheism contains no mandated belief that a god must either exist or must not exist. A more accurate view is that since existence or nonexistence of God is neither provable nor non-provable, the question is simply irrelevant. If not for the impact of religion on society, it would have the same level of importance as the existence or nonexistence of astrology or UFOs—that is, of extreme importance to an obsessed few but only an odd curiosity to most.
Overly aggressive religiphilia and religiphobia (to get away from the baggage of the a-word) certainly exist. But frankly, I find a far greater prevalence in society of the former than the latter. That may be because the former had a 2,000-year head start, during which the latter ran the risk of torture and execution for merely revealing their existence.
The fact that I no longer need to fear torture because of my atheism, and indeed religion's gradual, continuing disentanglement from Kings and governments over the last few centuries, is evidence of a long slow societal progress. That’s what ‘The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice’ is about.
All you've done is redefined "atheism" to mean the same thing as "agnosticism", making your own idiosyncratic language poorer for the lack of the distinction between not believing something to be true, and believing it to be false.
As I said, No True Scotsman territory.
But no, as an Atheist and differently from an Agnostic, I do affirmatively believe that in the natural universe, there is no detectable God with an interest in humanity. I do not, however state that as absolute, eternal, unerring, indisputable Truth. And while I'll always consider verifiable, repeatable, falsifiable evidence to the contrary, I don't view the unprovable, unfalsifiable assertions of any person as such evidence.
Since I’ve seen no convincing evidence of the supernatural and despite a lack of absolute proof against their existence, I don’t accept the equally supportable tales of the existence or power of astrology; ghosts; ESP; fortune-telling; wood sprites, elves, and fairies; psychics; angels and demons; UFOs; crystals and pyramids; an omnipotent, omniscient, omnificent God; or most certainly in the ultimate truth of any one religion over any other religion.
It’s simply my continuing judgment, based on experience and knowledge gained over the last 50+ years (since when at 14, I had the first serious doubts of the religion in which I was raised), that the odds of any religion providing an accurate explanation of the universe are so vanishingly infinitesimal as to be safely discarded.
Again, that's a position of atheism, not agnosticism.
Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf: The evidence that I've seen, and gathered in this article, suggests that "freedom of the press" has long been understood as covering all who speak to the public, and indeed "not just those with establishment media credentials." Indeed, the first lower court cases that I've found that read the "freedom of the press" as limited (even in part) to establishment media date from the 1970s.
Well .... dang. Guess I don't know everything. Who'd'a thunk it....
Are you sure you want to leave that kind of opening wide open?
I don't know 🙂
I still don't understand how the rule against endorsing canidates (if a church wishes to retain it's tax-status) doesn't plainly violate the church autonomy doctrine and the 1st ammendment more generally. Yet, a church which reaches the theological conclusion that god wants you to vote D and preeches that conclusion is denied a tax deduction that churches which don't aren't.
This feels like a clear example of a viewpoint based restriction (well condition of benefit) that's obviously not the least restrictive means to achieve an important government interest (indeed not sure there is any such interest here). So just on free speech grounds it seems unconstitutional not to mention it directly injects the government into church deciscions about matters of preaching and theology (the gov is declaring that the view that God wants me to tell you to vote for X isn't a legit religious belief).
That's despite the fact that beliefs like: god wants person X to run the country are well within the historical norm. The pope used to publicly support kings as ruling with the mandate of god (and revoke such approvals if they provoked the Vatican). Indeed, political canidates have frequently become religious figures themselves (the ancient Roman cult worshiping the emperor).
Well, obviously the idea that churches should be exempt from taxes is ridiculous ab initio and is really only a result of the undue deference given to them - and the removal of that exemption altogether would solve the problem.
SRG: Are you suggesting that only churches be denied tax exemptions, while other nonprofit advocacy groups (the 501(c)(3) branches of the NRA, the Sierra Club, the ACLU, etc.) continue to have them? Or that tax exemptions be entirely abolished?
Why no, I don't see where SRG even implied that. Since it's not mentioned, seems more likely SRG has no problem with the standard assumption—that churches would be treated under the same standards as other non-profits for their genuinely non-profit activities, with taxes due under some circumstances (federal, state, and local income and property taxes, etc.) and not under others.
Will leave the controversies about theoretically stronger 501(c)(3) versus 501(c)(4) limits on tax-exempt political activity to others. But following the principle, churches would, like the politically-active NRA, Sierra Club, and ACLU (and the less but not entirely non-political Red Cross) be able to conduct some activities under (c)(3), but others only under the less favorable 501(c)(4).
I believe it likely that the current American trend to increasingly politicize religion for partisan benefit (currently more on the right- than left-wing side, though at least some on both) will increase the rate with which resistance to government favoritism of religion, increases in the broader population.
I’ll predict that, not immediately but certainly over the next 50(?) (100?) years, religion’s special exemption from taxation will gradually erode, and organized entities of religion will eventually and constitutionally fall under the same rules as other non-profits (Jefferson's Separation of Church & State thing). This will allow them to retain many of their current tax advantages, while removing the troublesome problem of that blanket exemption from laws that apply to all other entities.
This follows the same logic as court decisions that neutral community noise ordinances do apply to both the bell-ringing of Christian Churches, and to the Adhān—the Muslim call to prayer—while some decidedly non-neutral noise ordinances have been appropriately overturned on grounds of religious rights.
I am generally an optimist (less by nature than by policy) and believe there’s evidence that over the centuries, over millennia, human society slowly but demonstrably evolves, matures, improves, and ultimately, progresses. Such progress is not smooth; it happens in fits and starts with considerable backsliding (the Trump Interregnum being one such backslide).
But both in America and globally over the last 200+ years, I believe humanity's gradual disentanglement of religion from government, is evidence of that long slow societal progress.
Gaining enougb momentum to crush religion via laws is not progress -- you are just shifting from one memeplex, religious control of laws, to another equally evil one, general political parties.
Swap "for God" with "for The People", and "you will come back to life after you die" with "your life will be better after my 5 year plan", and you just end up with the same dirtbags lining their pockets. What progress?
The progress is reigning in the excesses of the wielding of power. I see no reason for joy at the eventual legal crushing of one memeplex by another. You have done nothing about the core problem of history plaguing humanity.
Not sure where you get "crush religion" out of anything I've said. A society evolving to the point where its citizens no longer feel a necessity to believe (or pretend to believe) in one specific flavor of supernatural causes of or solutions to problems, is not crushing religion but may, perhaps, be allowing it to whither.
And over millennia, that's the path humanity is taking.
What do you think of the hypothesis that the long-time government state sponsorship of religion in Western European countries is responsible for the comparative withering of religion in those countries? Less than half their population admits belief in a god, and weekly church attendance is less than 10%, versus U.S. belief rates of 70-90% and weekly attendance percentage in the 40s-70s? (studies tend to differ depending on sponsorship and whether self-reporting, or observation is used, but there’s no doubt the US numbers are much higher).
I would posit that the traditional Jeffersonian Separation of Church and State view (e.g., balancing the 1st Amendment's government may not promote Establishment, and individual Freedom to practice clauses) has, in the United States, protected and promoted a vibrant competition among religions, sects and subsects that’s resulted in our greater degree of societal religiosity.
We're in a period of backsliding from the philosophy of neutral government treatment, as described in the Supreme Court's 1948 McCollum v. Board of Education decision, which included the statement
I believe the greater degree of demonstrated government favoritism to religion over the last few years will not prove to be to U.S. religion's long-term benefit.
Perhaps, except if, say, a church owes property taxes, and doesn't pay, the church gets seized. Now that interferes with the free exercise thereof. Now roll in that most of my fellow atheists roll in a secret, "Yeah, yeah! Hurt the churches!" and it's even worse.
I have no love of religion, but he point of this mutual detente between religions and the historical problems, legion and mass murderous, are lost on them.
"They contend that church autonomy doctrine lacks limiting principles"
Is that the case? My understanding is that the doctrine precludes secular courts from intruding into matters of theology, but not matters of secular law. If a religious institution fires a clergy for preaching heresy, that is beyond the power of the courts to review. If it breaches a contract to install plumbing in a building, courts will review that, same as for an office building.
I'm keeping my "Powder Dry"(Hey, I'm a "Bitter Klinger") until "The Reverend" Blesses us with his Revelation (6:5 he says "Bitter Klinger" in under 100 characters)
Frank "Misses missing Sin O" Gogue"
In a sense, church autonomy does place churches "above the law", but isn't that what the phrase "Congress shall pass NO LAW..." is meant to accomplish? The government may place restrictions on other businesses and organizations that it may not place on churches. This is by intentional design, not by accident or happenstance.
It is my experience that most people who claim to believe in "separation of church and state" really mean they don't want churches meddling in government affairs, but have no issue with government meddling in church affairs; in fact, they are often in the forefront of calls for the government to regulate religious matters.
That depends on what you mean by regulating religious matters. I don’t see it as regulating religious matters to say that religious people have to obey the same laws everyone else has to obey. In a pluralistic society there will be times when we can’t accommodate everyone’s religious beliefs. Otherwise a lot of people will suddenly discover that paying taxes is against their religion.
You're conflating "religion" and "churches" with "religious people". The First Church of Anytown does not pay taxes, but its members and employees do.
It makes perfect sense to exempt churches from laws applicable to other businesses. For example, a regular business subject to anti-discrimination laws could not fire someone for converting from Catholicism to Protestantism (or vice versa), but it would seem ludicrous to suggest a church could not fire a minister who has converted and no longer believes in the tenets of the church.
I don't believe you believe your argument is convincing, because you rely on a principle that isn't even limited to religion. As a non-profit, the NRA is not forced to hire a gun-control advocate to head its policy shop. I have no issue with religions being subject to the same standards as other social-service, advocacy, or fraternal non-profits.
Let's try a more applicable situation using a court ruling with a logic you agree with, and I don't. The Little Sisters of the Poor (LSotP) is the owner and manager of a large chain of non-profit long-term care facilities, mostly leveraging Medicare funding to provide assisted-living and nursing home services, mostly but not entirely to indigent clients. (I’m glad they're motivated to do that, but other non-religious non-profits do that too.)
In 2020, SCOTUS, in Little Sisters of the Poor v. Pennsylvania, gave LSotP the right be free even of knowledge that:
• Some of their employees are having sex in violation of Catholic religious belief that sex not intended to lead to pregnancy within a life-long marriage of a man and a woman, is sinful.
• These employees are supported in that sin through funding provided through the U.S. Affordable Care Act's contraception mandate—and not involving LSotP at all (funding went directly from a non-LSotP source, to employees, without action by or acknowledgement of LSotP).
In spite of the fact they bear no tangible burden beyond this terrible knowledge, the decision mandates that LSotP's non-Catholic employees (without whom they acknowledged they could not operate) must abide by purely Catholic religious beliefs, or else government-provided benefits intended to be available on an equal basis to all Americans, will be denied.
This is certainly a matter of religious freedom, most certainly including that of non-Catholic LSotP employees to be free of the tenets of a religion they do not follow. In this, the LSotP (and their litigation funders including the US Conference of Catholic Bishops) are on the wrong side—the side that assumes:
Freedom of Religion means only Freedom of [everyone to practice MY] Religion.
The NRA is not obliged to hire a gun-control advocate because "stance on gun control" is not a protected category in any civil rights law that I am aware of, unlike sex, race, religion, etc. The NRA (or another non-profit), however, could not say it was only going to hire men because it believed women should be not work. A church could do that if it were part of its belief system.
As for your discourse on the Little Sisters of the Poor case, I'm not sure what, if anything, you are trying to say beyond your opinion that it was wrongly decided. I am not sure how to respond other than to say I disagree with you, as did seven of the nine justices on the Court.
There seems to be an unwritten assumption it is government's honor and privilege to shove religion off into a corner and pat the people on the head, saying, "That's a quaint lifestyle choice you have there, but we're only permitting you to use it in certain contexts. Stick to those or you will be punished."
Lookig at religions and political party platforms, loosely, what you have are not just two similar phenomena, but the exact same one. Each is a large group of ideas tied together for the purpose of assembling enough bodies to take power, and bingo!
Now you can legally force yourselve on the unwilling.
The People forbid religion from doing this directly, but did not do so so other large groulping ideas (platforms, hot air of demagogues) could use it as a cudgel to beat down former rivals.
Hence the idea of taxing religions for the temerity of having opinions on absolutely vital things like government and who runs it is precisely government saying, "quaint lifestyle choice you have there. Thou art not permitted to do anything that might affect our power though or we will hurt you."
So would the public and the indigent poor served by the Little Sisters be better off if the Little Sisters had to lay off all their lay employees, sell off their facilities, and operate the way their founder, St. Jeanne Jugan did, by taking a much smaller number of indigent poor into private houses and tending to them as best they could individually, leaving the vast bulk of indigent poor whom they now serve out on the streets, to be dealt with by whatever secular organization picks up the slack?
In their court case, LSotP did not argue they were providing a unique or irreplaceable service. Indeed they excused forcing their non-Catholic employees to conform to Catholic religious belief because they could easily get equivalent jobs elsewhere (despite also acknowledging they could not operate employing only Catholics).
Society and jobseekers would both be better off if LSotP decided to accept that non-Catholics they wanted to employ also had religious freedom rights and, by accepting the government Medicare funding their business model relied on, they had the responsibility to accept both Catholics and non-Catholic freedom of religion.
And if they decided against that, their portion of government funding would be freed for use by the many other religious (but accepting freedom of religion for others) and secular non-profit healthcare providers serving the same population.
As far as I know, the Little Sisters of the Poor don't discriminate in hiring against anyone on the basis of religion. You can work for them, even if you're a Muslim, a Hindo, a Baal worshiper, or a devotee of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But perhaps you believe that if a halal grocery won't sell you bacon, and you're not a Muslim, you believe the store is denying you freedom of religion.
Strike the second "you believe"
But if the First Church of Anytown catches fire or gets burglarized, the local police and fire department will respond, meaning that First Church is being subsidized by other local taxpayers. And it's no answer to say that its members and employees do pay taxes because under that theory, the local for-profit gym should be exempt from taxes too. You've also got religious entities engaged in what, by any reasonable definition of the term, is business activity, raking in billions of dollars annually, that is also not taxed because it's religious. And I saw an article just the other day about a famous television preacher whose $15 million "parsonage" is also not taxed because it's church property.
As for whether churches, as churches, should be exempt from generally applicable laws, it depends on the law. Would you agree that church buildings should be subject to local fire codes? Or that church kitchens should meet local health and sanitation requirements? If your answer is no, then we just disagree; if your answer is yes, then we agree that a line exists and differ as to where it should be drawn. There was a case in Alabama some years ago in which a church refused to comply with local codes, claiming the state has no right to regulate the church, and when the building collapsed, several people died.
And the Little Sisters case would never have been an issue if we had single payer health care, but that's another subject for another day.
Those local taxpayers are The People! The People already support it through their direct taxes, and told government, when the People formed government, that it shall not hurt religion, their pet project that was abused for control for millenia.
How is it hurting religion to not give it special favors? Any more, that is, than taxes hurt any other taxpayers? It strikes me as a massive sense of entitlement to say that it's discrimination to not give special favors.
My understanding of the First Amendment is that the government can't treat churches worse than anybody else -- it could not levy a special religion tax that applies only to churches -- but it can't treat churches better than anyone else either. Neither religion nor non-religion is to be favored over the other.
Your concept of the First Amendment w.r.t. religion seems a servile attitude for the modern politician. Burdens to get a chimeral benefit. Of course taxing religion hinders it. One of the few court cases on it was precisely a shot across the bow of Congress: Imagine that church which didn't pay its property taxes...now what?
Currently government operates (well, the power hungry, anyway) as if it is allowing religion leeway because it chooses to be nice, but could yank that chain at its whim. I submit that is wrong, and woe be to this nation if a misguided court decides otherwise.
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
This eviscerates the concept of general applicability in this context, at least in issues where people are dealing with each other freely. It about the burden, not the gee whilickers gubbermint gets to do what it wants.
And, can anyone deny it's completely laughable that occasional church fires are some kind of financial burden on fire departments, already fully funded through constitutional taxes? Where is the problem here?
There is none. Some simply want to hurt religion. It took so long to drag religion, kicking and screaming, away from direct control of government. I have no desire to see the same old power being wielded in the same old wrong ways, but by other large groups instead.
Preserve the religious detente of the First Amendment.
Essentially, modern governments respect freedom of religion, (To the extent they actually do.) not out of genuine respect for or concern about religious liberty, but instead because religion is one of the few forces that can inspire people to oppose government, and possibly take up arms against it.
It's a form of truce, or peace treaty.
The problem is that the secular left are feeling their oats, and want to break the treaty, because they don't want to tolerate alternate power centers in society.
As someone you would probably consider the "secular left" that's not it at all. Very few on the secular left want active persecution of churches; we just don't think churches are entitled to special pleading. Treat religion the same as any other belief system; neither better nor worse.
But the left tramples all over other belief systems, so that IS a declaration of war, of sorts.
Brett, not really. How is it a declaration of war to say that religion gets treated neither better nor worse than any other belief system?
And that harks back to something I said earlier: Religion has a massive sense of entitlement such that it thinks it's entitled to special treatment as a matter of right. And if it doesn't get favorable treatment, that it's being discriminated against.
In the war of the left against all other belief systems, it's a declaration of, "And you, too!"
And the right doesn't fight that same war against competing belief systems? Disney might have something to say on the matter.
So Brett, you think all institutions and ideologies that aren't in the church have been at war with, if not taken over by the left?
That's quite a broad culture war you just bought for yourself. Sounds exhausting to see everything as in partisan war.
Krychek,
"Religion" gets the same benefit (in terms of taxation) that any other non-profit does. Harvard University doesn't pay property taxes on any of its non-profit properties. Non-profit hospitals don't pay taxes on their properties. Either do non-profit animal shelters, or voting rights organizations or food banks.
Now, you may think it should be right and just for a government to assign a large property tax bill to a local food bank in Oakland, and then perhaps simultaneously decide on a dollar value for the food that it is "giving away" and assign a sales tax based on that. Effectively, that would likely shut down the food bank. Is that something you think is good and just?
Well, the food bank is demonstrably doing something that actually benefits the community, and I'm fine with taxing Harvard too. I don't know that I'd even mind that much a tax exemption for a local church on its actual church property.
My issue with religion is the Joel Osteens and the Pat Robertsons and the Kenneth Copelands and the Jim and Tammy Bakkers of the world, who use religion to rake in billions. That's just another business (and arguably a scam on top of it), so why shouldn't they be taxed?
I wasn't aware any of those people didn't pay any taxes.
And the people who work at Wal Mart pay taxes too, but so does Wal Mart.
And Walmart has profits to pay taxes on...
And you think Joel Osteen doesn't have profits? Ever hear of Marjoe Gortner?
And you think he doesn't pay taxes?
Joel Osteen may very well pay taxes, but the multi-billion dollar business organization that is a so-called church that he runs does not.
Krychek,
How much exactly do you think Lakewood Church (Joel's church) makes? You keep throwing around the word "billions". I mean, it's a big church....45,000 people....but it only brings in ~$90 million a year in revenue. The nearby Houston Food Bank brings in more than double that ($200 million a year) and pays their CEO more than $300,000 a year.
Or are you combining "all" religions to get to "billions". ?
Now do the Southern Poverty Law Center.
"My understanding of the First Amendment" -- is focused only on the establishment clause. The free exercise clause requires religion to be given better treatment in some regards.
No, it focuses on both. The establishment clause means churches can't be treated better; the free exercise clause means churches can't be treated worse.
The establishment clause means that you can't have an established church, like the Anglican church in England. At the time the Constitution was adopted, several of the states had established churches, and they didn't want the federal government getting into that game, or interfering with their own state churches. So Congress was totally barred from legislating on the topic.
Now that the 1st amendment is incorporated, neither federal NOR state governments can have established churches.
In my admittedly a bit eccentric but historically grounded, view, the free exercise clause really ought to be doing all the work these days.
Approaching the middle of the 20th Century, we had approached a decent accommodation balancing the goals of both the Establishment and Freedom clauses. It was pretty well encompassed by the Supreme Court's 1947 Everson and follow-up 1948 McCollum decisions.
In Everson v. Board of Education, the Court said:
This was one of the first clear rulings that the Establishment Clause prohibits government aid directly to to religion, not just establishment of religion. And then in McCollum v. Board of Education, the Court added:
Specifically, the decision provided these three guidelines:
• “Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.
• “No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities…”
• “Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups…”
So in addition to the prohibition on establishing its own church, our government couldn'taid religion, fund religion, or participate in organized religion. I'd be pretty satisfied with that level of separation of church and state, though starting in the 1950's McCarthyism era, dozens of salami-slicing decisions slowly pared back many of those points, and that's greatly accelerated in the past decade.
But none of these further opinions have stated the Establishment clause is limited to only direct government establishment of an official State Church. I hope the 'Bremerton Football Coach" case in oral arguments today doesn't change that, though I'm not certain of it.
I acknowledge the fact of incorporation, but the way it was done was without any real effort to look at the words of the constitutional provisions at issue, but with a lot of effort at results-oriented jurispridence.
The theory of incorporation, as set forth in Gitlow v. New York is that there are some of the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights are a species of "liberty" that, under the 14th amendment, states can't deprive people of without due process of law. (They didn't actually rule that freedom of speech and press are among those liberties--that was done later--but they assumed that to be the case and then found that, even if freedom of speech and press were such liberties, they hadn't been violated by the New York law that Gitlow was challenging.) It is certainly plausible to argue that freedom of religion is another liberty that the states can't deprive you of without due process of law. (The argument gets a little squirrelly when it holds that a criminal conviction doesn't constitute due process of law, as it must if it is to maintain that convicts have religious freedom rights that are protected by the U.S. constitution.) But the absence of an establishment of religion? (Or to reflect the language of the amendment more accurately, the absence of a law "respecting" establishment of religion, either for or against?) How is that any kind of "liberty"?
Justice Brennan tried to respond to that objection at one point by saying that disestablishment of religion was important to ensure freedom of religion. (I guess he thought disestablishment was among the penumbras and emanations from freedom of religion.) But is anyone going to argue with a straight face that countries with straight-up state churches, such as England and Sweden, do not have robust protections of freedom of religion? To ask the question is enough to highlight the absurdity off the argument for incorporation of the establishment clause. Which is why we're better off not asking it.
Yes, I do agree that churches should be subject to SOME generally applicable laws, as you seem to concede that they are NOT subject to some, or "above the law", to use the formulation of the original post.
Where to draw the line is difficult, as it often is, but I would generally say it is where the government has an extremely compelling interest, such as saving lives, the most compelling interest of all for government. (Essentially the Sherbert v. Verner test). This is where fire and safety codes would fall.
I've often remarked that churches would not be in need of relief from generally applicable laws if we took secular liberty more seriously, because we'd have a hell of a lot less oppressive generally applicable laws.
If the government only issued orders when it had such extremely compelling interests, (Instead of whenever the whim struck.) religious liberty would be an afterthought.
"But if the First Church of Anytown catches fire or gets burglarized, the local police and fire department will respond, meaning that First Church is being subsidized by other local taxpayers."
You mean other taxpayers like the church's members? Who may already be paying more than half of their income in taxes? End double taxation and this isn't an issue.
Also, the church isn't being subsidized any more than any other nonprofit.
Well, Wal Mart employees and shareholders pay taxes, but so does Wal Mart.
And the employees of the ACLU and HRC pay taxes, but the ACLU and HRC don't. Do we need to start taxing those orgnizations?
Get back to me when either the ACLU or the HRC start raking in billions like the religion business does.
You mean like "all" religion? Combined?
Are you also combining all those other non-profits then?
The "religion business" rakes in $150 billion in revenue (not profit) a year, according to the Tax Foundation (https://taxfoundation.org/church-taxes/). The non-profit sector as a whole rakes in $390 billion (https://independentsector.org/about/the-charitable-sector/). That means that the ACLU, the HRC, and all other secular non-profits rake in $240 billion. So yes, they *already* "rak[e] in billions like the religion business does."
Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and to God what is God's.
Unfortunately, God's laws are a bit confusing and the enforcement also seems a little uneven.
It's almost as if people are just making up rules and there is no God.
And, I didn't want to be the first to broach the subject, but not only that, enough of what religion does is actively harmful that subsidizing it probably isn't good policy. Yes, it operates soup kitchens and homeless shelters. It has also given us the Mideast Conflict, Al Quaeda, ISIS, the Northern Irish Troubles, and that's just in my lifetime. I sometimes wish that proponents of religious freedom trumping everything would at least acknowledge that fact.
Religion is the hot air motivator of those conflicts. It is not the cause.
The cause is the desire to become the kleptocrat in chief of massively corrupt societies.
As we see in modren societies, other memes fit that same bill. Indeed, some large idea-groups, political parties, AKA memeplexes, have adopted memes that other large ones, religions, "shall be disabled from competing with us".
This has done nothing to address the core problem: the desire to proudly lead the kleptocracy. I mean, to proudly lead to benefit the people.
OK, we can discuss which is the horse and which is the cart, but I don't think there's any real debate that at bare minimum religion makes it much, much worse.
If you think there isn't any real debate about that, you are, to put it politely, a loon.
I suppose that depends on how broadly one defines "real" debate; one can almost always find someone to take a contrary position for just about anything. But what's the argument that religion isn't making it worse?
Even if "religion" gave us "the Mideast Conflict, Al Quaeda [sic], ISIS, the Northern Irish Troubles," that doesn't mean that St.-Swithin's-in-the-Swamp over on 3rd Street did, or Holiness Bible Church two blocks over, or Congregation Beth Israel on Fulton Avenue, or the Masjid Dar al-Islam on Washington Boulevard, or the Vedanta Temple on Edison Street. Or perhaps you think that "religion" is some monolithic Big Bad, so that if one religious institution does something contrary to the public interest, they all should be charged as co-conspirators.
What I think is that if you add up all the good religion does -- soup kitchens, homeless shelters, food pantries -- and compare it to the bad religion does, it wouldn't even be close. The world would be far better off without it.
Now that doesn't mean that every individual religious institution, or every member of every religious institution, is personally responsible for every bad thing religion does. I've already acknowledged it does some good. It does mean that from a cost-benefit standpoint, we ain't getting near back in returns what we're paying out.
"What I think is that if you add up all the good religion does -- soup kitchens, homeless shelters, food pantries -- and compare it to the bad religion does, it wouldn't even be close. The world would be far better off without it."
An interesting question: If you applied the same arithmetic to government, after the 20th century, how would the bottom line look?
By "after the 20th century", you mean you're looking at everything government has done from January 1, 2001 to the present? Nothing before that counts?
I think overall we're better off with government than without it, which is not to say that it's difficult to find bad things government does. But even so it's not an apples to apples comparison. There will always be a power structure of some sort; true anarchy is a practical impossibility, so the question is what kind/how much government we will have, and not whether we will have any at all.
That's not true of religion.
"soup kitchens, homeless shelters, food pantries"
Is that really the best you can come up with? The true goodness in religion is far larger. Education, Science, Health Care, Civil rights....
Harvard University: Founded by the Puritan clergyman John Harvard...
Penicillin: Developed at "St. Mary's".
The International Red Cross....self explanatory.
The Civil rights movements: Headed up by the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.
You ready to get rid of all those too?
" enough of what religion does is actively harmful that subsidizing it probably isn't good policy. Yes, it operates soup kitchens and homeless shelters. It has also given us the Mideast Conflict, Al Quaeda, ISIS, the Northern Irish Troubles, and that's just in my lifetime. "
Religion generates plenty of good (good works, providing comfort) and more than enough bad to offset that good. Faith-healing charlatans (and their victims). Nonsense-teaching schools. Suppression of science. Silly dogma. Dogmatic intolerance. Sacred ignorance. Superstition-based coercion and authoritarianism. Religion-generated violence (including religious wars, torture, and genocide).
Unfortunately, government's laws are a bit confusing and the enforcement also seems a little uneven.
It's almost as if people are just making up rules and there is no law.
I find this type of theorizing highly suspicious, if not downright bogus.
There is a limitation inherent in the theory.
Of course there is. You designed the theory to contain one.
It’s like a ventriloquist using the dummy’s objective, neutral, independent third opinion as assurance that the ventriloquist is right.
It’s fine to say you think there ought to be limiting principles and articulating what you think they ought to bw. But describing your theory as if it were some sort of objective neutral thing is a rhetorical illusionalist’s trick.