The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
The Demand for Political Misinformation is a Bigger Danger than the Supply
Harvard Law Professor Guy-Uriel Charles has some useful insights on the problem.
In recent years, there has been widespread concern that democracy is threatened by the spread of misinformation and "fake news" on social media and other similar new technologies. Rick Hasen's recent book Cheap Speech: How Disinformation Poisons Our Politics-and How to Cure It, is an important addition to the literature making this case. Hasen and others argue that the problem can be mitigated by public and private actions to restrict the spread of misinformation on social media (though Hasen advocates more modest regulatory measures than some other commentators).
In a recent symposium on Cheap Speech at the Balkinization blog, Harvard Law School Prof. Guy-Uriel Charles explains how this case is weakened by the reality that the the demand for misinformation may be a more significant menace than the supply:
I…. wonder how we ought to think about the problem of disinformation and misinformation if we assume that the market for political information is operating efficiently and that the problem is not one of market failure, which is how Rick frames the issue. Rick defines cheap speech as "speech that is both inexpensive to produce and often of markedly low social value," (21) and frames it as a problem of political market failure caused by information asymmetry (30). He uses as his model a pathbreaking paper by George Akerlof, the Nobel Prize winning economist, entitled The Market for "Lemons": Quality Uncertainty and the Market Mechanism. In that famous paper Akerlof explored how the information asymmetry between sellers and buyers with respect to the quality of certain goods might result in a market in which lower quality goods overwhelm high quality goods and in a reduction in the size of the market. For example, if you're a buyer in the used car market, you can't tell whether a seller is offering a reliable used car or a lemon, though the seller knows. To hedge the risk that you're buying a lemon, you make a lower offer. Potential sellers of quality cars are less likely to enter the market because buyers are unlikely to pay their asking price. The absence of sellers of quality cars leaves sellers of lemons in the market…..
It is unclear to me that the Akerlof model, which assumes that consumers are in the market for quality cars, is the right frame for thinking about political misinformation and disinformation. There are certainly some voters who are interested in truthful political information. But there are certainly a, perhaps larger, group of voters who are not in the market for truthful political information. We know, for example, that there is a relationship between partisanship and misinformation (see, e.g., here, here, and here). There's literature, and debate, on the role of motivated reasoning on assessing the accuracy of information (see, e.g., here vs. here). Moreover, as some researchers have demonstrated, the demand may be asymmetrical (see, e.g., here and here; conservative or Republican voters may be more likely to believe misinformation and there is evidence of partisan asymmetry with respect to cures to misinformation. If voters are filtering information based upon their partisanship or other identities that are salient to them or if they are seeking information that is consistent with their priors, then the Akerlof model is less apt….
To the extent that voters are seeking information that is consistent with their partisan identities or confirms their priors, then the market is working perfectly. There is no market failure, given that the market is supplying precisely what the people want. Republicans seek and get the information they like; Democrats seek and get the information they like. Everyone gets to live within their echo chamber, and no one must be confronted with ideas and information that makes them uncomfortable. Of course, this is no way to run a democracy.
Cheap Speech is extremely compelling on its own terms. At the same time, Rick's exhaustive exposition raises the question whether we have the right model for understanding the problem. If the problem of misinformation presents a demand-side problem, or to the extent that there is both a demand-side and supply-side problem, supply-side only solutions are not likely to resolve the problem. Similarly, to the extent that we have a supply-side problem, then demand-side solutions are not going to suffice…
If it is the case that political disinformation is at least about voter preferences as it is about politicians and social media platforms, solutions to the problem are much more complex. Modern democracies are not very good about figuring out what to do when voters get exactly what they want and what voters want is actually bad for democracy. Tweaking the law and relying upon private ordering is less than optimal, if the goal is a resolution of the problem. Rather, the focus will need to be on structural political and economic reforms.
I agree with almost every point Charles makes, and have made similar arguments in my own writings, including here, here, and here. The popularity of political misinformation is indeed due primarily to demand, rather than supply, which is why the problem long predates the rise of modern social media, and might well have been as bad or even worse in earlier eras dominated by what we today call the "legacy" media of newspapers and radio. The lies and disinformation that promoted fascism, communism, and other enormously harmful ideologies spread without the aid of Twitter and Facebook.
Charles is also right to emphasize that Akerlof's "market for lemons" is a bad analogy for the market for political information. Potential buyers of used cars generally want to know the truth about the condition of the vehicle in question. They have strong incentives to seek out the truth, because their decisions on whether or not to buy the car will make a big difference.
By contrast, the low odds that any one vote will make a difference to the outcome of an election ensure that many consumers of political information are acting not as truth-seekers, but as "political fans" eager to endorse anything that supports their position or casts the opposing party and its supporters in a bad light. These biases affect not only ordinary voters, but also otherwise highly knowledgeable ones, and even policymakers and politicians.
This demand for misinformation is the real root of the problem. If it were lower, the supply would not be much of a danger, and at the very least would not affect many voters' political decision-making.
In recent years, right-wingers' susceptibility to disinformation that confirms their priors has been especially notable, as in the case of Donald Trump's lies about how the 2020 election was supposedly "stolen" from him. But, unlike Charles, I'm not convinced that the left is generally less susceptible to this problem. Social science evidence indicates that bias in evaluation of political information is roughly equal across the political spectrum. Each side is relatively more susceptible to misinformation that confirms their priors. Examples that appeal disproportionately to the left include 9/11 "trutherism" (discussed in my book Democracy and Public Ignorance ), and claims that GMO foods should be banned or tightly restricted because they are supposedly more dangerous than "natural" ones.
Finally, Charles is absolutely right that dealing with this demand-side problem requires "structural political and economic reforms." Restricting social media is unlikely to accomplish much, because the demand for misinformation can easily be met by other producers. Fox News, a traditional broadcast media operation, is likely a far more significant spreader of right-wing misinformation than anything on social media. Left-wing misinformation is also readily spread on more traditional media. Indeed, across the political spectrum, many more people get their political information from TV news or media websites than from social media.
In theory, government regulators could suppress misinformation across the board, regardless of whether the producers are traditional media or new ones. But, in addition to constitutional problems, such policies are objectionable because they would give political leaders vast power over the spread of information. It's far more likely they would use it to promote narratives that support their parties and policies than "objectively" promote truth in a "neutral" way. Even if you trust the current Democratic administration to wield such power responsibly, you probably don't trust the Republicans - and vice versa.
In previous writings, such as my book on political ignorance, and a more recent article in National Affairs, I have argued that the right structural reform is to shift more decisions to formats in which people can "vote with their feet," and thus have stronger incentives to seek out information and evaluate it objectively than ballot-box voters. This can be accomplished by limiting and decentralizing the power of government, thereby enabling people to vote with their feet over more issues.
The Akerlof "market for lemons" problem is a good example of how foot voting in the market can mitigate information problems. Because used-car buyers have strong incentives to seek out the truth, over time market mechanisms have arisen to provide relatively accurate and unbiased evaluations of used cars. Despite Akerlof's fears, good used cars have not been systematically driven out by lemons.
Thus, the last time I sold an old car of mine, the prospective buyer and I took it to an independent mechanic to have him evaluate its condition. The buyer had a strong incentive to take it to a neutral expert evaluator, and to assess the latter's report in an unbiased way. Few voters are willing to make the time and effort to do the same with political information. A world with more "markets for lemons" and fewer political markets would be a world where misinformation is a less serious danger.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Russia collusion hoax, fine people hoax, Covington kids hoax, lafeyett square hoax (that somin fell for), drinking bleach hoax, Hunter Biden laptop cover up, a lot of disinformation around Rittenhouse..... I'm missing at least a dozen more. Democrats have perpetrated and the left has fallen for so many hoaxes it's unreal. I wonder how many of these somin and the Harvard professor still believe.
He clearly believes that the 2020 election wasn't rigged, despite that article in Time Magazine bragging about how it was.
Did you say, Harvard? Dismissed, commentary from the treason indoctrination camp. Ironic that any lawyer should comment of disinformation, since the entire lawyer education is filled with supernatural doctrines, delusions, and garbage policies.
When Big Media or Big Tech sites complain about "misinformation," what they are really talking about is dissent. Those sites, especially the large newspapers and the TV networks, abandoned journalism for a leftist party line of lies decades ago, and now consider it their job to gaslight the public, and sensible people on the right have responded by abandoning those fake-news media in favor of blogs and podcasts, which the left is unable to silence, at least so far and at least in the US.
The danger we need to be wary of is that states and countries will find ways either to block people from seeing dissident blogs and podcasts, or to criminalize posting them. At some point they will make them illegal and we will have to out-hack them to keep our freedom to use the Internet. But we'll manage.
" Those sites, especially the large newspapers and the TV networks, abandoned journalism for a leftist party line of lies decades ago"
Once upon a time, broadcasters who used the public spectrum of RF were bound by a Fairness Doctrine, that required them to represent all political viewpoints equally. AM talk radio was popular with right-wing political programming, so Republicans decided we didn't need a Fairness Doctrine any more, and continue to dominate AM talk radio to this day. Which doesn't stop them from whining about how news broadcasters are all left-leaning.
I see literacy isn't one of your strengths.
Russia collusion hoax - Mostly confirmed.
fine people hoax - Trump said that
Covington kids hoax - not a hoax, but poor reporting
lafeyett square hoax - I don't even know what this is. The facts are clear on this
drinking bleach hoax - Trump did say this
Hunter Biden laptop cover up - not a cover up, Rs are just pissed CNN is not running more stories
lot of disinformation around Rittenhouse - again facts have been clear on this not long after the event, it is the interpretations that are different.
"Russia collusion hoax - Mostly confirmed."
Oh boy...someone's been smoking the good stuff.
Read the report, you bigoted, worthless, half-educated wingnut.
Or, better yet, keep spouting your right-wing ignorance right up to the moment you are replaced -- by a better, younger, more diverse American.
I did. The report (after a multi-year, multi-million dollar investigation) did not find sufficient evidence that President Donald Trump’s campaign coordinated with Russia to influence the United States’ 2016 election.
It's hard to accept the truth Rev.
The Senate Report linked many in the Trump campaign to Russian government agents. The only outstanding questions that are how much actual coordination there was, and how much Trump himself know about it.
(Rolls eyes).
If there was anything real there, it would've come out.
But you've got smoke and mirrors and nothing said can convince you that there isn't any "collusion." You're guilty of the same thing you like to accuse others of....a believe in the lies.
When you use vague terms like "linked", you can make make any accusation you want.
The report was clear that Russia was helping the Trump campaign. Full stop. (If you don't accept that as a fact, then you're the one buying into a hoax.)
Also, there was evidence Russia was trying to coordinate with the campaign and that the Trump campaign was trying to work with the Russians. ("if it's what you say, I love it" prior to meeting with an actual Russian agent).
Insufficient evidence is not the same as no evidence. (You should be familiar with this concept from the Hillary Clinton investigation.)
The standard to convict is beyond a reasonable doubt and there was not sufficient evidence to meet that threshold. This could be because Roger Stone and Paul Manafort preferred commutation/pardon over cooperating with the investigation.
OK. If the report was clear...
How exactly did Russia help the Trump campaign? Not "try to help"...but actually help. In concrete terms, what exactly did it do to help Trump win the election? Be as specific as possible, because you said it was clear.
And just to be clear...
Actually help Trump win the election. Not "create dissent." Not "actions designed to interfere with the election". Actions that definitively helped Trump and just Trump win the election.
And don't go "Just go read the report". You've made a claim. What specifically from the report definitively helped Trump win the election, giving him an advantage, that actually occurred.
Actually help Trump win the election. Not "create dissent." Not "actions designed to interfere with the election". Actions that definitively helped Trump and just Trump win the election.
The very fact you need to set the bar so high is kind of a self-own.
No, Sarcastr0, the original claim was "collusion" with Russian efforts. The bar that AL set is quite a bit lower than that original claim.
Funny, I don't see AL's requirements in the definition of collusion at all...
A penumbra, maybe?
See, this is actually a case where goalposts were moved -- by your side. There was never any collusion, so the claim shifted to "some Russian people did something" and that Trump's campaign didn't stop them or something. AL is just asking for people to establish that the Russian somethings made any difference (because previous analyses found no obvious effects (and probably no effect).
Your definition of collusion, with direct contact and but-for cause, is not what normal people mean when they say collusion.
My definition? That definition is something that you just made up. As per your normal behavior.
"Your definition of collusion, with direct contact and but-for cause, is not what normal people mean when they say collusion."
Merriam-Webster: " secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose"
Cambridge: "agreement between people to act together secretly or illegally in order to deceive or cheat someone"
Dictionary.com: "a secret agreement, especially for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy:
Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.
Law. a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement:"
So, basically everybody agrees that, in order to collude, people have to agree to work together.
You can help me secretly all day long, and if I haven't entered into some sort of agreement with you that it will be done, it's not collusion.
I see you all arguing, but it's pretty a simple bar to meet and extremely well established.
Armchair Lawyer,
From the Muller Report:
Beginning in March 2016, units of the Russian Federation’s Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff (GRU) hacked the computers and email accounts of organizations, employees, and volunteers supporting the Clinton Campaign, including the email account of campaign chairman John Podesta. Starting in April 2016, the GRU hacked into the computer networks of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) and the Democratic National Committee (DNC). The GRU targeted hundreds of email accounts used by Clinton Campaign employees, advisors, and volunteers. In total, the GRU stole hundreds of thousands of documents from the compromised email accounts and networks. The GRU later released stolen Clinton Campaign and DNC documents through online personas, “DCLeaks” and “Guccifer 2.0,” and later through the organization WikiLeaks. The release of the documents was designed and timed to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election and undermine the Clinton Campaign. (page 36)
And that they gave the info to Wikileaks was precisely because Wikileaks was anti-Clinton:
WikiLeaks, and particularly its founder Julian Assange, privately expressed opposition to candidate Clinton well before the first release of stolen documents. In November 2015, Assange wrote to other members and associates of WikiLeaks that “[w]e believe it would be much better for GOP to win . . . (page 44)
And you don't just have to believe Muller, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence had this to say:
The Committee found that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the Russian effort to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak information damaging to Hillary Clinton and her campaign for president. Moscow's intent was to harm the Clinton Campaign, tarnish an expected Clinton presidential administration, help the Trump Campaign after Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee, and undermine the U.S. democratic process.
That you pretend not to know this is concerning as you on here worried about people being misinformed about other matters (which, frankly, are not similarly established).
And, surely, you don't need the stats that demonstrates that the release of the stolen information was timed to help and poll numbers immediately moved in response. Just to be clear.
Damn, NOVA. That was good. If I was still running my business I would be interested in hiring you. When some Texas jackass tries to sue me for $10,000 for helping someone get an abortion after six weeks, I may still need you.
Oh, I don't deny that Russia ran an online messaging campaign attacking the Clinton campaign.
But that's a world away from claiming that Trump was working with the Russians. It's little different than the endorsements of Obama or Clinton by European leaders - a PR campaign by foreigners designed to influence the US Presidential election.
Russian agents also seems to have committed some FARA and disclosure violations, which is, again, unrelated to Trump.
Finally, if you think meeting with a dual US-Russian citizen that claims to have proof of Clinton's illegal dealings with the Russians only to leave when they don't present any, is proof of "collusion" then you must truly be up in arms about the campaign that hired a foreign spy to gather rumors from Russians, make up more salacious stories, and then peddle that to the media and FBI.
"How exactly did Russia help the Trump campaign?"
The conducted extensive social media campaigning on his behalf.
"They conducted extensive social media campaigning on his behalf."
So what?
"Extensive" by my standards, maybe. By Presidential campaign standards, it was miniscule.
And something of a joke, have you SEEN some of what they posted? Hilarious!
And usually ignored is the anti-Trump content they also paid for. Some of those anti-Trump rallies after the election were literally organized by Russia.
Brett Bellmore: A massive hacking plot to leak confidential campaign materials coordinated with the other campaign was trivial.
Also Brett Bellmore: a content-free NYP story that was widely publicized would’ve changed the election outcome if it had been slightly more widely publicized.
The Mueller report admits they don't know for sure who hacked or obtained the DNC emails.
"Unit 26165 officers appear to have stolen thousands of emails and attachments, which were later released by WikiLeaks in July 2016." p. 41 (emphasis added)
As one FBI agent commented:
"It's certainly curious as to why this discrepancy exists between the language of Mueller's indictment and the extra wiggle room inserted into his report a year later," says former FBI Special Agent Coleen Rowley. "It may be an example of this and other existing gaps that are inherent with the use of circumstantial information. With Mueller's exercise of quite unprecedented (but politically expedient) extraterritorial jurisdiction to indict foreign intelligence operatives who were never expected to contest his conclusory assertions in court, he didn't have to worry about precision. I would guess, however, that even though NSA may be able to track some hacking operations, it would be inherently difficult, if not impossible, to connect specific individuals to the computer transfer operations in question."
Anyway, remember when lefties applauded the journalistic disclosure of sensitive government information?
That's not an FBI agent. That's a random person who used to be an FBI agent 15 years earlier and therefore has no special insight into anything related to the investigation or the report.
Again, by the bar you folks set, almost no one ever colludes with anyone else short of actual criminal conspiracy.
Which would be news to a lot of antitrust lawyers. And people who speak ordinary English.
It really shows how bad the Trump campaign's behavior was that you need to spend so much time talking up these ridiculous standards.
The campaign's behavior was so bad you need to redefine the word "collusion" and are still unable to provide examples?
"Again, by the bar you folks set, almost no one ever colludes with anyone else short of actual criminal conspiracy."
Ah, yeah? What's your point?
Russia/Soviet Union has been interfering with American elections for decades ... almost as long as the US has been interfering in other foreign, democratic elections.
There is nothing new here ... the question is only whether the Trump administration collaborated in that interference.
"I did. The report (after a multi-year, multi-million dollar investigation) did not find sufficient evidence that President Donald Trump’s campaign coordinated with Russia to influence the United States’ 2016 election."
There wasn't any collusion, because the Russians didn't want to work with Trump. They did want to saddle us with him, which they managed to do without taking a meeting with him.
You and NoVa need to get on the same page. Either Russia wanted to work with Trump or they didn't.
Best that's the best part of the "collusion" myth. You all can believe what you want in the absence of facts.
These things are not contradictory.
Russia quite clearly reached out to Trump. And certainly his people were happy to coordinate with Russia's leaks.
Whether they pulled the trigger to meet directly with Trump is another matter.
Russia quite clearly reached out to Clinton. And certainly her people were happy to lie about Russian disinformation to trick the FBI into starting an investigation of Trump.
Sigh. No. The FBI started an investigation of the Trump campaign because George Papadopoulos bragged to the Australian ambassador that the Russians were meeting with him to promise him dirt on Clinton.
All armchair, no lawyer.
But he should be an honorary law graduate of Regent, Cooley, Ave Maria, Liberty, and South Texas College Of Law Houston.
"You and NoVa need to get on the same page. Either Russia wanted to work with Trump or they didn't."
The Russians were absolutely uninterested in working with Trump. They wanted to saddle us with him, and didn't want to take a chance that he'd screw up their efforts.
1) If you were a real lawyer rather than an armchair lawyer, you'd know the difference between the failure to find sufficient evidence to prove something and finding evidence that disproves something.
2) Mueller was very careful and precise in what he said. "Coordinate with" was a very narrow and specific thing. He found evidence that Russia worked to help the Trump campaign, and that the Trump campaign welcomed that help. What he said that he did not find was that there was an express agreement: "You do X for us, and we'll do Y for you."
1) I kind of assume that real lawyers are aware of the presumption of innocence, and don't stupidly insist on pretending that evidence of innocence is needed where evidence of guilt is lacking.
2) Right, what he didn't find was any evidence of collusion, which actually DOES require an agreement.
Yet again, Brett, you don't have such a presumption about Hillary. Your double standard stinks.
Again, Hillary's problem is that the proof of her guilt was public, even Comey didn't say she couldn't have been prosecuted, just that she wouldn't have been. Left unsaid was that she wouldn't have been prosecuted because she was one of the important people who aren't actually required to obey such laws.
Whereas with Trump, you have the presumption that he's guilty of something, but a distressing lack of actual evidence.
This is where being a disaffected, gullible misfit interferes with Brett Bellmore's thinking and writing.
I have failed to find sufficient evidence that you are not a paid plant of the Russians operating to support the Democrats.
Is that how this works?
Congrats on your complete lack of perspective.
0 and 'lots but not beyond a reasonable doubt' are different quanta of evidence.
"Hunter Biden laptop cover up - not a cover up"
Just for the record...this absolutely was a cover up before the election. The story was actually restricted from being shared on Twitter and other online platforms as "misinformation"...despite being 100% true.
Here's a rebuttal:
1) I am not, and never will be, on social media. I didn't like most people I went to high school with and the ones I did like have my contact info.
2) I was aware not only that the Hunter Biden laptop existed, but also what the allegations and competing claims were surrounding it.
I usually don't agree with Molly because she is as far left as the various paleoconservatives here are far right. But there was enough information available about this issue before the election that someone who doesn't use social media and avoids hyperbolic sites like Vox, Gateway Pundit, Slate, InfoWars, etc. like the plague could be well-informed about the issues, claims, and counterclaims surrounding Hunter's laptop.
Calling this a coverup is like calling a collander a bowl. It doesn't hold water. The information was out there and available through a myriad of sources.
Let me suggest an analogy. Take some U235. If you pile enough of it in one place, you get a big explosion.
Now, mix it with a neutron "poison"; Boron, for instance, or Hafnium. You can pile up as much as you like, it's never going to get more than warm. You've suppressed the reaction, even though there's still a detectable level of activity, that activity lacks much in the way of consequences.
The goal of suppression isn't to perfectly achieve 100% ignorance about the suppressed information, that's typically both unachievable and unnecessary. You just need to suppress it enough to avoid achieving criticality, to avoid the knowledge spreading fast enough that the scandal blows up in your face and has consequences.
It's generally understood that the Hunter laptop would have been sufficient to guarantee Biden's defeat, if it had been seriously reported on, if social media platforms hadn't made strenuous efforts to damp down the chain reaction.
But they did. The well informed knew in general terms about it, political junkies knew enough about it to know it was explosive, the average person was in the dark, had even been told it was Russian disinformation. (Ironically, that, itself, was deliberate "disinformation".)
The suppression wasn't complete, but it WORKED.
Brett,
It's generally understood that the Hunter laptop would have been sufficient to guarantee Biden's defeat...
No, it isn't.
Also, what on Hunter's laptop is different from (or worse than, because plenty is less bad) Jared Kushner being selected by MBS, over the objections of his financial people, to manage $25 billion dollars of Saudi assets and collect a $25 million per year fee? Recall that Jared Kushner was nepotistically made a senior official in the prior administration and specifically lobbied not to be hard on MBS after it was proven MBS ordered the torture, murder, and dismemberment of a US-based journalist and Kushner lobbied within the administration to continue supplying military technology to Saudi Arabia to include in support of their war in Yemen. Do you acknowledge this looks both like a reward for Jared's past actions as a U.S. government official and as an investment in a possible future U.S. government official? If not, why not?
It isn't "understood", but a survey shortly after the election showed most Biden voters had not heard of the laptop story, and that about 10-15% of those same Biden voters said they would not have voted for him if they had known about the contents of Hunter's laptop.
That's not proof of anything - people lie about their preferences all the time - but it is strongly suggestive that the suppressing the story had an impact on the election.
Sounds like a Rasmussen poll.
You're effectively arguing that having been in an official position within the administration no private citizen may accept a business transaction that appears to have a conflict of interest as to when they were in the administration. I don't find that convincing. Otherwise the Clintons, as well I'm sure as many, many other previous administration officials from both parties have a lot of investigations coming.
While I cannot speak to what Kushner lobbied for in regards to MSB, 3-4 years is a lengthy turn around especially when Kushner no longer has any political clout to market. Does it look bad? Absolutely. Just like HB's laptop looks bad. Personally I do want to know who the 'big buy' actually is, but I don't immediately conclude it's JRB.
Between all of the peddlers of influence, if anything illegal was done they should be held accountable accordingly.
I think that MSM and other massive tech companies did suppress information, including asserting what turns out was disinformation regarding the HB laptop. All while standing on the soapbox of 'preventing misinformation'. My argument in that regard isn't about what is/is not on the laptop, or even whether or not anything illegal happened.
I do take very specific issue with claims by such influential entities as Twitter and FB, and more especially MSM that they're preventing disinformation while using disinformation to dismiss or change what people understand or know about the truth. That is a scandal. Yet everyone plays in the realm of 'whataboutism' and 'ends justify the means', and it's on both sides of the coin.
Brett,
political junkies knew enough about it to know it was explosive
What you should have said to be accurate:
Could be exploited to appear different from other similarly gross nepotism and influence buying that, unfortunately, appears generally not to be illegal.
"Discovered laptop", drug use, womanizing, "shady deals." This all sounds bad, and is. (Personally, I kind of hope Hunter ends up, and other similarly situated powerful people end up, in jail for tax fraud if, in fact, he/they committed tax fraud). But the bad part is this sort of influence peddling/buying is far too common and, it would appear, tends not to be illegal. (See Governor Robert McDonnell for a domestic example involving the politician himself; see Jared Kushner and MBS for a current example involving a family member who was also a high-ranking government official thanks to daddy-in-law.)
Brett, I don't think that anything abouy Hunter Biden is relevant to Joe Biden unless there's some sort of evidence that Joe Biden was improperly involved in whatever Hunter was doing. I am vehemently opposed to guilt by association (or, in this case, guilt by shared genetics).
The problem that faces people who keep screaming about Hunter Biden (and think it should have had some impact on Joe Biden's election) is that reasonable people don't like guilt by association. And that's all the Hunter Biden stuff is.
And this. Good point, Nelson.
"Brett, I don't think that anything abouy Hunter Biden is relevant to Joe Biden unless there's some sort of evidence that Joe Biden was improperly involved in whatever Hunter was doing. I am vehemently opposed to guilt by association (or, in this case, guilt by shared genetics)."
Here's the deal. Was some corrupt foreign business willing to throw money at HB? Seems likely. maybe?
Did this money-throwing affect anyone in the US government? Not shown.
So, there's a foreign business that may have thought they were buying influence. That's a sign that the foreign business is corrupt, or at least may be. HB let them think they were buying evidence, which suggests that paying him off is ineffective.
And nobody has pointed to anything that throwing money at HB has accomplished. It's all conspiracy theories, and it's even less convincing than the "Hugo Chavez led the effort to steal the 2020 US Presidential election conspiracy theory.
Actually, it has been shown that some of the money being thrown at Hunter was finding it's way to Joe. He was "the big guy" getting a 10% cut, remember? So it wasn't just illegal drug use and child porn.
No, Brett. Not only is there little evidence that JRB was the “big guy,” but there was no 10% cut and there wasn’t even any transaction to get a 10% cut of! (Also, I reiterate that JRB was a private citizen at the time this thing didn’t happen.)
Just like Kushner is a private citizen when this thing happened with MSB?
So you're just going with flat denial. I suppose that works as long as you don't care if you look ridiculous.
Try learning the facts. There was an email, at which someone asked whether 10% would be held by H for "the big guy." (That's what a question mark means — that it's a query rather than an assertion.) This email was about a proposed business transaction, a transaction that never happened. And, again: if it had happened, it would have been after Biden had left office.
This episode should be instructive to gullible, disaffected, delusional wingnuts.
Part of the reason people originally discounted the Hunter Biden laptop story is that the purveyors of the information were recognized to be unreliable, dishonest, and intensely partisan. Rudy Giuliani had squandered his reputation and his law license playing the clown at Trumpworld. Laura Ingraham is part of Ginni Thomas' World Of Delusion. Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity? Even Fox News declares no reasonable person believes those two are reliable sources. Steve Bannon? Too deranged even for Fox.
The amateurish handling of the information (security, partisanship) disinclined reasonable, informed people to trust the information or to credit the claims by the right-wing clowns.
It was easy, and natural, to discount the Hunter Biden laptop story because the people circulating it were such delusional, partisan liars. The story might have received a better reception had decent, credible, reality-based people offered it.
The only problem is that the first claim is something so delusional that anyone who thinks this belongs in a mental institution.
Also, there were no such "strenuous efforts," and your stupid metaphor notwithstanding, there was no such suppression.
"Also, there were no such "strenuous efforts," and your stupid metaphor notwithstanding, there was no such suppression."
?? Twitter banned the NY Post account due to the reporting. Then they claimed that it was a mistake.
Twitter — not "social media platforms" — suspended (not "banned") the NYP account for tweeting one particular article. (That's the way Twitter's suspension policy works for everyone on every topic: if you make a tweet that they decide violates their rules, they suspend your posting privileges until you delete the tweet.) They did not ban discussion of the underlying issue, or of the NYP's suspension. A few days later, they decided that the rule shouldn't have been applied in that context, and they reversed the suspension.
Anyone who read the NYP knew about the story, because it was still in the NYP. Anyone who used Twitter knew about the story because discussion of the story, and the fact that Twitter had reacted to it, was all over Twitter. Other media outlets covered the story. They were linked all over twitter. The story got far more coverage because of Twitter's action.
The vast majority of Democrats and Independents polled after the election stated that they had never heard of the story or did not realize it was real.
This might have something to do with the fact that the Post and its articles about the laptop were banned from Twitter from October 14th through 6 pm on October 30th - just three days before the November 3rd election. More than just "a few days" and during the most critical portion of the election runup - especially considering the tens of millions of mail-in votes during that period.
Despite your false statement that the update to the "hacked materials policy" happened at the same time as the Post's restoration, reality shows that the Post and the laptop stories continued to be blocked for another two weeks.
When several primary news sources and the biggest casual communications channels like Twitter and Facebook deep-six a story, most people do not hear about it. The Post's circulation of 200,000 (almost entirely local to New York) is not going to counter the millions of digital views lost from the suppression.
The vast majority of people can't name their own senators or representatives or the justices on the Supreme Court. It's not because there's a conspiracy to hide this information. It's that politically obsessed people badly overestimate how much attention people pay to the news.
To measure the true effect of the media’s censorship on the election, the Media Research Center asked The Polling Company to survey 1,750 Biden voters in seven swing states (Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin), six of which (all but North Carolina) were called for Biden (survey details below). We tested these voters’ knowledge of eight news stories — all important topics that our ongoing analysis had shown the liberal news media had failed to cover properly. We found that a huge majority (82%) of Biden voters were unaware of at least one of these key items, with five percent saying they were unaware of all eight of the issues we tested.
This lack of information proved crucial: One of every six Biden voters we surveyed (17%) said they would have abandoned the Democratic candidate had they known the facts about one or more of these news stories. A shift of this magnitude would have changed the outcome in all six of the swing states won by Joe Biden, and Donald Trump would have comfortably won a second term as president...
Even more Biden voters (45.1%) said they were unaware of the financial scandal enveloping Biden and his son, Hunter (a story infamously censored by Twitter and Facebook, as well as ignored by the liberal media). According to our poll, full awareness of the Hunter Biden scandal would have led 9.4% of Biden voters to abandon the Democratic candidate, flipping all six of the swing states he won to Trump, giving the President 311 electoral votes.
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/rich-noyes/2020/11/24/special-report-stealing-presidency-2020
I can't tell if it's hilarious or frightening how dumb you are. "Here's a push poll based on a bunch of fake hypotheticals."
And yet you would cite any political poll that suited your narrative as good evidence that you are right. But all political polls are by and large fake and politically biased. To be clear, I don't cite this as proof that the election outcome would have been different but for X Y and Z, that's silly, but no more silly than the claim that the outcome would not have been different. It was clearly a major story (imagine the same facts but Don Jr, lol!) that would have political impact, but was censored and denied with outright lies in a very remarkable fashion.
This is from MRC's about page: “MRC’s sole mission is to expose and neutralize the propaganda arm of the Left: the national news media. This makes the MRC’s work unique within the conservative movement."
Gee, I wonder how this organization came to the conclusion that an October Surprise about someone who wasn't running for President played a decisive role in Joe Biden beating Donald Trump?
Nelson,
Allow me to offer a counterargument to your rebuttal.
You (and many others here) are what we would call "high information voters." You readily read multiple news sites online. For someone like you, yes you would've heard about it.
However, many people are not "high information voters." They don't engage in reading multiple news political sites. They gain their understanding of the political environment in passing...conservations with neighbors, social media, occasionally the nightly news.
By wrongly labelling factual information as "misinformation" is was in essence able to eliminate the story from being spread in a more typical manner.
"However, many people are not "high information voters." "
Yes. They are known as Republicans, conservatives, clingers, Volokh Conspiracy and, and culture war casualties.
Their ignorance is one of the reasons they are doomed to lose the American culture war and spend the rest of their lives complying with the preferences of better Americans.
Then, replacement.
Volokh Conspiracy fans, and culture war casualties.
The only problem with your rebuttal? The first place I heard about the laptop and the accusations against Hunter Biden was CNN.
And I live in Delaware, so I knew that Hunter Biden was a dirtbag long befpre most of the radical right even knew he existed. I saw the report and believed it was probably true, given what I know about Hunter.
I also didn't think that the fact that the son of a presidential candidate was a dirtbag made any difference to Joe Biden's candidacy. Just like I didn't think that the fact that Beau Biden was an extraordinary man made any difference to Joe Biden's campaign.
The wrong Biden son died. Hunter dying wouldn't make the slightest difference to anyone outside friends and family (and possibly not all of them). Beau dying was a tragedy for victims of sexual violence and domestic abuse specifically and people who want to experience representation with integrity. He was a great, dedicated attorney general and a proud military veteran.
Nelson: Hunter Biden might be a dirtbag, but just to be clear, absolutely nothing in the NYP story was about that. The thing the RW loons around here want people to forget is that the smoking gun story contained no smoking guns. If Twitter hadn't mis-reacted to it, the story would've been forgotten in five minutes.
Just for the record, the claim that it is "100% true" is completely made up. In fact, the claim that it wasn't misinformation is 100% unsupported.
The story is still completely fishy and implausible, and — no, despite what RW media is trying to sell you on — neither the WaPo nor the NYT have "admitted" otherwise recently.
The fine people hoax was claiming or inferring that Trump’s “fine people” words were describing the neo-nazis, when in fact he specifically condemned them.
A hoax is something that is fake, made up, with an intent to decisive. Trump did say that in regards to the altercations in Charlottesville that "there were very fine people, on both sides." He did make a minor attempt to condemn the Nazis, but the bulk of the comments were him trying to equate the Nazis with the left wing protesters. One could come to different interpretations of the comments, but in no way was it a hoax.
So quote the "bulk of the comments" that you think meant that. Otherwise, it looks like you're just making things up.
He also specifically praised them. The "fine people" words were describing the neo-nazis, because those were the only people there on that side.
No, DN, you are lying again.
There were a bunch of people that had nothing to do with neo-Nazis there - a fact that anyone that wanted to could easily look up.
To claim he "specifically praised them" would mean that Trump explicitly identified neo-Nazis as the objects of "praise". In fact, he did the opposite: the only time he specifically identified neo-Nazis, he condemned them.
When someone says "A and not B" you cannot conclude that references to A are also references to B. This is basic logic. No honest person can conclude otherwise.
"When someone says "A and not B" you cannot conclude that references to A are also references to B. This is basic logic. No honest person can conclude otherwise."
Assuming that DT was that precise in his language use is delusional.
He was actually fairly specific on that occasion, for DT levels of specifity.
He was, in fact, very clear indeed: Both sides had bad people, both sides had good people. And that's perfectly true.
Thank you for providing the delusional side of that argument, Brett.
No, it isn't. There were no good people attending a Neo-Nazi rally.
"There were no good people attending a Neo-Nazi rally."
So the people opposing the Neo-Nazi rally who were in attendance weren't good people?
Look, you opened up splitting hairs so let's split them....no?
If you define any rally that has neo-Nazis attending as a neo-Nazi rally, and declare that everyone there is a bad person, does that mean that anyone that attends a rally with, say, a rioter, arsonist, or looter is also a bad person?
Just asking for 2020.
If you define anything with chocolate in it as pizza, then you can come up with all sorts of weird conclusions.
But I'll bet you don't. And I don't define any rally that has neo-Nazis attending as a neo-Nazi rally. Rather, I define a rally expressly organized by neo-Nazis as a neo-Nazi rally.
There were a bunch of people that had nothing to do with neo-Nazis there
If you're at a rally, and a bunch of people start shouting neo-Nazi shit like 'Jews will not replace us' and you stick around? You're a neo-Nazi.
Now do Antifa protests. By your argument, they're all members of communist front groups.
What Antifa protests?
Any rally where Antifa members were present and said inflammatory things. By your argument, anyone in the same side of the protest becomes Antifa then.
Any rally where Antifa members were present and said inflammatory things
a bunch of people start shouting neo-Nazi shit like 'Jews will not replace us'
Let us compare and contrast the two different scenarios you and I laid out, shall we?
Also, one of the reasons Antifa sucks is they seem more about punching than yelling.
You spent literally two years telling us that, just because you happened to be present at a riot, (Even if you knew there'd be a riot!) does not mean you, personally, were a rioter.
Now just being at a political event where neo-Nazis show up makes you a Nazi?
No, Brett, and it's telling you can't stop editing what I said in your head.
The riots and the protests happened at different times.
That didn't stop you from denying that people who were present at the RIOTS were rioters.
"This is a bad idea.
Either you shoot rioters, in which case the protests against the federal presence will continue because after all they aren't rioters, and you will look both crazy and weak.
Or you shoot protesters in which case I'm pretty sure given the moms and vets and videos, you will have screwed up badly."
Or, I love this gem: "Protests - even peaceful ones - are not the opposite of violent."
All through that thread you were insisting that they weren't rioting, they were just trying to set fire to occupied buildings.
White nationalists didn't just "show up" at Unite the Right. They organized it Their names and symbols are all over the promotional literature. If you attended, you were answering the call of white nationalists. You were deliberately adding your voice to the cause of white nationalists.
Brett fails to acknowledge the difference between a rally organized by neo-Nazis and other white supremacists (and then people joining them) and protests that were either unorganized or were organized by people explicitly against riots and explicitly non-violent.
A person who joins the former is fairly characterized as being a sympathizer of white supremacy and, hence, not a "very fine" person.
A person who joins a non-violent protest, but antifa or other rioters show up, cannot be fairly said to have endorsed antifa's or the rioter's beliefs or actions. In fact, in most cases, the rioters were acting directly contrary to the actions and expressed wishes of the peaceful protesters.
To make this equivalence, I think you need to identify people who said, before it became controversial, that they repudiated white supremacy, that did not participate in the tiki torch "Jews will not replace us" march, and otherwise distanced themselves from the obvious white supremacist element among the organizers and majority of participants on that side.
(For context, 93% of Black Lives Matters protests were peaceful. Zero "Unite the Right" protests/demonstrations were organized, promoted, and attended primarily by white supremacists.)
On the first day a protest turns into a riot, you might plausibly make that distinction. On the second, maybe you're a bit clueless, or didn't follow the news.
By the second week, you're showing up for the riot.
*Zero "Unite the Right" protests/demonstrations were *NOT* organized, promoted, and attended primarily by white supremacists.)
Brett,
I notice how you immediately backed off this claim:
Now just being at a political event where neo-Nazis show up makes you a Nazi?
Thanks for conceding that the "Unite the Right" was organized, promoted, and populated by neo-Nazis and other white supremacists. It is more than reasonable to infer those attending sympathized with white supremacy. Hence, there weren't good people on the pro-white supremacy side.
You still ignore the fact that 93% of BLM protests were non-violent. At those where there was rioting, it mostly occurred at night. Therefore, attending a peaceful rally during the day says zero about supporting rioting at night, no matter how many days elapse. Moreover, your argument is specious anyway, as even where there was rioting, a majority of attendees were non-violent, expressed non-violent sentiments, and decried the violence. It is unreasonable to conclude that people are "showing up for the riot" when they say otherwise and they only engage in peaceful protest. You might think they should let a minority of bad actors stop them from peacefully protesting, but that's not how the First Amendment or logic works.
As far as I know, that march was on a different day and independent of the march in the park.
Do you have any evidence of people who were parts of different groups hanging out with the neo-Nazis as they were chanting those things?
You understate the issue. This wasn't a rally where some people just started chanting Nazi slogans. This was a rally organized by Nazis. The only people attending were Nazis.
Nope. On one side you had neo-Nazis, and on the other you had counterprotesters. There was no third group.
Well, yeah, if you start out with the premise that everybody on one side was a scumbag, clearly it's unavoidable that there were no non-scumbags on that side. Don't think nobody has noticed that you're just starting from your conclusion and reasoning back.
It's not a "premise." It's a fact. It was a rally organized by neo-Nazis, inviting neo-Nazis to be there to demonstrate in favor of REL. If there was one guy marching with the group who mistakenly thought he was joining a Little League parade and didn't realize the topic was the traitor-in-defense-of-slavery's statue, then he wasn't detectable on camera and Trump couldn't have seen him to refer to him. Trump was expressly talking about the people he saw on TV, not a hypothetical person who accidentally stumbled into the rally.
One of the major anti-Trump rallies after the 2016 election was organized by Russian intelligence. I guess that means everybody who attended was a Russian agent...
Brett, I can't believe you would be this disingenuous. The Russian involvement was hidden in your example, unlike Unite the Right, which had a well-reported on website that was pretty clear on their agenda.
That's the big issue. Though if it's the headline I remember, it was hardly a major rally. A couple of thousand people is not major. At least not on the left.
It's funny how you get your kicks by intentionally lying on the internet.
MollyGodiva
April.15.2022 at 9:18 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Russia collusion hoax - Mostly confirmed.
Actually completely confirmed that it was a hoax
sussman indictment
Walk us through your reasoning that Sussman was the but-for cause of the Russia investigation, or it's results.
Sacastero - you cant seriously be that disconnected from accurate information on the russian collusion hoax
Sussman was very active in providing false information to the FBI for purposes of opening the FBI investigation.
https://technofog.substack.com/p/cia-bombshell-the-sussmann-data-was?s=r
This conspiracy blog is long on supposition and short on actual connections.
you cant seriously be that disconnected from accurate information on the russian collusion hoax
This is the same 'if you were smart you'd already have read and uncritically believe this esoteric blog' tone you took with covid.
You have a problem with picking a favorite source and turning off your brain.
Sarcastr0
April.16.2022 at 2:31 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
This conspiracy blog is long on supposition and short on actual connections."
The indictment says otherwise -
the statements I have made about covid have turned out remarkably accurate and well supported by the current research. The fact that you have been unable to recognize bad research / agenda driven research results does not speak well of your critical thinking skills.
If you use sites like ivmmeta.com, it's no wonder you are in awe of your prowess. Deeply flawed websites tend to reinforce deeply flawed beliefs.
I dont use ivmmeta, nor have I ever heard of it.
I get most of my covid info from http://www.medrxiv.org, which the vast majority of commentators here havent heard of, which partly explains why most of the criticism of my comments are based on very dated information no longer considered valid.
Um, that's an indictment of your posts, not a defense of them. Everything there is unconfirmed, by definition.
You get you covid info from Healthy Skeptic, and you know it.
Setting aside that an indictment isn't evidence of anything (other than that a person was indicted, tautologically speaking), even if the accusations against Sussman are 100% true, it would not "confirm" that Russia collusion was a "hoax." It would not say anything at all about Russia collusion.
Funny, you are simultaneously arguing that having evidence of something is no reason to treat it as true, while elsewhere arguing that not having evidence of something is no reason to treat it as false.
This can be summarized as "Evidence has no bearings on David Nieporent's worldview". While it's nice of you to advertise that facts will not sway your prejudice, it does make you rather worthless as a conversation partner - even Behar turns out more interesting arguments than you.
Wrong on both counts.
With respect to the Mueller report, I am arguing that not having sufficient evidence is not the same thing as that thing having been proven false.
With respect to Sussman, I am arguing that even if the accusation is true, it would not show that collusion is false because the only thing that Sussman is accused on lying about is whether he was acting on behalf of the Clinton campaign when he passed information to the FBI — not about whether the information was true.
"Setting aside that an indictment isn't evidence of anything "
This is especially true when it's an indictment of some Russians on the other side of the world who will never be required to respond in any way to the allegations . . . right?
None of these are hoaxes, JFTR.
Indeed, that's the problem: These complaints are classic mote/beam; The working definition of 'disinformation' always boils down to "things I don't want people to hear", with anything that aids the side complaining being dismissed as unimportant, if it's even acknowledged.
I agree 100%.
Those who want to believe that Hunter's laptop somehow implicates Joe Biden and should have impacted his electability believe that it was a coverup.
Those who want to believe that Hunter Biden isn't a grifting opportunist who trades on his father's name to get paid ridiculous amounts of money for nothing believe differently.
Those who oppose Joe Biden want to believe that Hunter Biden is the same as Joe Biden.
Thise who support Joe Biden want to believe that Hunter Biden is completely separate from Joe Biden.
Like Brett said, whichever extreme you fall on, your basic argument is that the other side is populated entirely by evil liars who don't consider anything that disputes their worldview.
Which shows an incredible lack of self-awareness, regardless of who is making the accusation.
" The working definition of 'disinformation' always boils down to 'things I don't want people to hear'"
No, Brett. Disinformation means "things that are not true but that are designed to support a particular point of view.
Not in practice, no. It doesn't. Things that are perfectly true will often be labeled "disinformation", just because the labeler doesn't want people hearing them.
Here's an example:
Google labeled THIS "disinformation", and suppressed it. A poll result from one of the best pollsters in America. Accurately reporting public information was "disinformation", because Google didn't want people who held those opinions to know that they were actually in the majority.
If that's true (I was able to Google and find what you linked), that is a bad call by Google. But as usual you're mapping an invidious motivation onto an action you don't like.
Think for a moment - can you think of other motivations that could be behind Google mislabeling something, other than an attempt to hide already pretty well-known facts from the public?
I don't give a damn about Google's motivation. I'm pointing out that they labeled something "disinformation" despite it being TRUE. Maybe, in their minds, they had utterly pure motives for labeling a truthful report "disinformation", but they did it.
The real definition of "disinformation", in practice, is "information I don't want people to hear". In practice, it has nothing to do with whether it's true, false, misleading, or anything else. Just whether the person so labeling it wants it heard.
You sure do give a damn, because you wrote 'Google didn't want people who held those opinions to know that they were actually in the majority.'
You have a whole story ready, as usual, based on the divined motives of those you don't like.
I note you also assume bias in what's getting blocked. Assuming the poll you linked is (was?) blocked, that's also not established.
You're focusing on the question of their intent like a laser, because you want to exclude from the focus what they did: Suppress something they knew was true, labeling it 'disinformation'.
My thesis is that whatever theoretical definition you might propose for 'disinformation', in practice the only definition is, 'information the labeler doesn't want people exposed to'.
People don't suppress things because they're disinformation. They declare them to be disinformation because they want to suppress them.
You are making a huge assumption that the thing was labeled "disinformation" by a human with an agenda. It's just as likely (or more likely, given that it's Google) that it was identified and labeled by an algorithm.
As the saying goes, never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Or, in the case of Covid, incomplete/changing information.
Um, algorithms don't exactly come from under cabbage leaves. Their behavior reflects the biases of humans who create them and select any data they may be trained on.
", algorithms don't exactly come from under cabbage leaves. Their behavior reflects the biases of humans who create them and select any data they may be trained on."
If a source tends to distribute disinformation, then it's very likely to become known as a source of disinformation. whether by an individual or by an AI.
Anyway, one mislabeled post by a Google algorithm doesn't change the definition of 'disinformation.'
"If a source tends to distribute disinformation, then it's very likely to become known as a source of disinformation. whether by an individual or by an AI."
And in this case we're talking about the most respected polling outfit in America.
While I admire the fact that you've gone in the space of 23 hours from "one of the best pollsters" to "the most respected polling outfit," you made both of those claims up.
Brett: "X is true, and therefore I conclude Y."
Sane people: "No, X isn't true."
Brett: "I don't care whether X is true. I conclude Y regardless."
"Not in practice, no. It doesn't. Things that are perfectly true will often be labeled "disinformation", just because the labeler doesn't want people hearing them."
Are there any other words you'd like to redefine?
Where did Google label that disinformation? Where did they suppress it? And where on earth did you get the claim that the partisan hack who wrote that article is "one of the best pollsters in America"?
And, of course, where on earth do you get the claim that "Google didn't want people to know…" something?
In my search for reliable information, I subscribed to both realclearpolitics.com and ground.news. Both sites provide supplementary information about the biases and factuality of the sources, and tell me the percentage of left/center/right sources publish it.
After a while using those sites, I see the same thing the blog post mentions. Both readers and publishers value the articles for their political value. Facts are unimportant in that equation, true or false.
My point is that you can't judge just on the basis of factuality. You need to consider these 12 in addition to factuality.
1. Spin
2. Unsubstantiated Claims
3. Opinion Statements Presented as Facts
4. Sensationalism/Emotionalism
5. Mudslinging/Ad Hominem
6. Mind Reading
7. Slant
8. Flawed Logic
9. Bias by Omission
10. Omission of Source Attribution
11. Bias by Story Choice and Placement
12. Subjective Qualifying Adjectives
+ 1,000,000
I don't know ground news, but I use realclearpolitics as well.
My favorite combo is the classic "misleading headline" + anonymous sourcing (with no information suggested by the SPJ Code of Ethics to allow readers to judge those sources) + admitting uncomfortable facts distorted in the bad headline deep into the article because you know few people actually will get to the 27th paragraph. I also used to check statistics cited in news articles when they bothered to list the source or I could track down the most likely source. I was surprised how often that stat was fake, a misrepresentation of actual finding (including sometimes a 180° difference from actual conclusion), or lacking all context/limitations that would allow readers to know that the stat didn't mean what it appeared to in the article. I even found a circular source in online news articles where tracing the stat led back to where I started likely because of "updating older articles" without notice to readers.
You should check out the pro-ivermectin site ivmmeta.com. It is basically a one-stop shop to see how data can be manipulated to reach completely unfounded conclusions while sounding perfectly reasonable.
I have added these to my list of news sources specifically for the reasons you gave regarding the supplementary information. Your post is what I try to do when looking at articles. I know I have a cognitive bias and I try to overcome that as much as I can with news and this will help.
Fox News, a traditional broadcast media operation, is likely a far more significant spreader of right-wing misinformation than anything on social media.
Can Somin name a major story regarding which Fox news broadcast misinformation, and persisted in doing so? We'll forgive mistakes, but stories such as the Russian Collusion Conspiracy were pure, deliberate misinformation from the left. Any equivalent from Fox?
1. 2020 Election Fraud lies
2. Vaccine lies
3. Many other covid lies
4. Obama birth certificate
5. Lies about Jan 6.
The list is almost endless.
??? You're suggesting that Fox News offered ongoing disinformation on any of those topics?
All of them.
But explaining that to a clinger is something like trying to persuade a religious believer that some of the dogma might not be entirely reliable.
Two vaccine lies repeated by Biden, Fauci, et al.
1. If you are vaccinated you cannot catch the virus.
2. If you are vaccinated you cannot spread the virus.
I heard Fauci speak on Monday and he did not say that. While in the last year or more there were some mis-speaks about the vaccine, the overwhelming comments were that it it reduces the risk of catching and spreading covid, and that it reduces the symptoms. The notion that the vaccine was either 100% perfect or else it was worthless was a Republican lie.
Biden - and Fauci, and Walensky, and others - explicitly stated that if you were vaccinated, you could not get or spread COVID.
Anyone with the slightest bit of a brain knew this was false, but it didn't stop it from being repeated. Here's Politifact - hardly a right-wing or Republican lie factory - explaining why they were "spreading misinformation" when they made those false statements.
And you are doing the same thing when you make your false statements trying to cover up for Your Tribe.
Well, that link failed to work - let's try this one again:
Politifact on "the vaccinated can't get COVID"
"Biden - and Fauci, and Walensky, and others - explicitly stated that if you were vaccinated, you could not get or spread COVID."
COVID today is not the same COVID as the one we identified in 2019. Original-brand COVID is pretty much done. What we have now is COVID-Omicron-B, which is more transmissible than the original strain.
There is the same problem pretty much every year for influenza. this year's flu is not the same flu as last year's flu.
That claim was never true, though. It wasn't true about the original strain, and it has been even less true of all the variants.
Here is the study they cite: Prospective cohorts of 3,950 health care personnel, first responders, and other essential and frontline workers completed weekly SARS-CoV-2 testing for 13 consecutive weeks. Under real-world conditions, mRNA vaccine effectiveness of full immunization (≥14 days after second dose) was 90% against SARS-CoV-2 infections regardless of symptom status; vaccine effectiveness of partial immunization (≥14 days after first dose but before second dose) was 80%.
I'm not thrilled with citing a single study as authoritative, but given the numbers there, it's hard to say that was a lie at the time.
How many times have you gotten shot down in this thread? It's not like there aren't examples of misinformation from the left. But you can't seem to find a good one. I'd guess it's because your media diet is so biased you can't critically interrogate what's real and what's the latest bullshit.
"Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick" - Walensky.
The headline of what I linked said the same thing.
So, yes, the head of the CDC lied about what their study said, and the agency "walked back" her lie. But you think the most important thing is that the fine print said something different than the public officials said on TV.
You are sitting there with earplugs on and your hands over your eyes, denying disinformation from leftists and their heroes. Not a good look.
Quibble over a 90% result, and taking a correction as proof the original statement was a *lie* is some amazing outcome-oriented reasoning.
Actual deceitful organizations don't walk anything back until well after the news cycle is over. For examples, check out Breitbart or Gateway Pundit. Or FOX News.
Not saying the NYT or WaPo are perfect, but based on their behavior with corrections, it's quite clear their relationship with the truth is a lot closer than right wing (or left wing e.g. Jacobin) media is.
Sarcastr0
April.16.2022 at 12:07 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Here is the study they cite: Prospective cohorts of 3,950 health care personnel, first responders, and other essential and frontline workers completed weekly SARS-CoV-2 testing for 13 consecutive weeks. Under real-world conditions, mRNA vaccine effectiveness of full immunization (≥14 days after second dose) was 90% against SARS-CoV-2 infections regardless of symptom status; vaccine effectiveness of partial immunization (≥14 days after first dose but before second dose) was 80%."
Sarcastro - numerous studies showed high effectiveness after being vaxed. But what those studies omit and which you omit is that the effectiveness drops rapidly after 6 months . That fact was well known by early August 2021. Yet Numerous studies continued to deliberatly deceived by cutting off the study period prior to 6 months inorder to make the effectiveness appear more robust that the vaxes were. You like many others continued to rely on deceptive agenda driven studies.
"Numerous studies continued to deliberatly deceived by cutting off the study period prior to 6 months inorder to make the effectiveness appear more robust that the vaxes were."
There was no possible way to learn that booster vaccinations might be necessary, unless you had ever had any experience with a vaccination before.
My favorite was the study comparing natural immunity to vaxed immunity, where everyone in the study who'd had Covid had it 6 or more months earlier, while everybody who'd been vaxed had gotten the vaccine less than 6 months ago, often only weeks earlier. No overlap, EVERY vaxed member of the study was more recent than every Covid infection.
To be sure, they couldn't have gotten anybody vaxed earlier, but they'd had no need at all to have excluded people who'd recently had Covid.
They'd designed the study so as to actively avoid a head to head comparison, and only compare fresh vaxed immunity to natural immunity half a year old.
"That claim was never true, though"
To what do you ascribe the fact that there are so few cases of original-brand COVID if not to the fact that so many people are vaccinated for it?
Maybe the fact that so many people have already had it? Not the ideal way to acquire immunity to a disease, I will gladly admit, (Cost me 2 weeks of PTO stuck at home.) but it works.
No, it doesn't.
So, you're a natural immunity denier? Maybe you think that shot you got is full of genetically engineered cells that take up residence in your body to fight Covid? Rather than just designed to trick your body into thinking it has Covid, and reacting just as it would if you had a real infection?
Did you consider maybe DMN was addressing the 'Maybe the fact that so many people have already had it?' rather than saying anything about immunity from getting the disease?
Well, actually, I meant both. Neither natural immunity nor vaccination prevents one from being reinfected. Brett keeps pretending that vaccinations wear off but natural immunity is magic.
Neither is magic, but they both work, and it's totally silly to credit only vaccines with having an effect on the progress of a pandemic at a point where the CDC itself believes that something near 43% of the population have already had Covid.
Like it or not, that means that natural immunity is also playing a significant role in suppressing new cases of Covid.
"the CDC itself believes that something near 43% of the population have already had Covid."
It not that 43% have *only* had Covid. The best protection is actually both. The strongest (and longest-lasting) immune response is in people who got the vaccine and then had a breakthrough infection or had Covid and then got the vaccine.
This isn't an either/or thing. Getting Covid is a very dangerous way to gain an immune response, but it provides some protection. Getting the vaccine is infinitely safer, and it also provides some protection. Getting both is the best protection and, if you got the vaccine first and then a breakthrough infection, the least dangerous way to achieve the most protection.
Someone who watched Fox News on Monday would also not have heard them claim anything about Barack Obama's birth. Does that mean you lied about Fox spreading that disinformation, or that you lied about what Biden said and what Fauci said?
so the fact that they (eventually) stop telling lies is the same thing as never having told a lie?
"Two vaccine lies repeated by Biden, Fauci, et al.
1. If you are vaccinated you cannot catch the virus.
2. If you are vaccinated you cannot spread the virus."
Neither of those things has been said by Fauci. If you have a quote otherwise, please link it.
The vaccine decreases the chance of catching the virus, but it doesn't come close to eliminating it and I don't believe any scientific organization has said that.
I believe that early on the hope was that the vaccines would decrease the likelihood of someone spreading the virus if they had it (because vaccines are about you getting a disease from a virus, not about you not having the virus in the first place).
I feel like there is a conflation of having the virus and having Covid. The virus is SARS Cov 2 (specifically Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2). The disease is Covid-19 (Coronavirus Disease).
A well-known historical example is AIDS. The virus is HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus), the disease is AIDS (Aquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome)
I saw him say it on video. If you only watch left wing misinformation channels they won’t play the clip.
It could be true - Fauci isn't as careful as he should be.
But link the video, if you're going to make that claim.
I've never seen him say anything that definitive. But it wouldn't surprise me if Fauci saying "decreases the likelihood" is heard by the right wing as "cannot". But I'm ambivalent about Fauci, so I don't pay as much attention to him as those that hate him.
"Fox News, a traditional broadcast media operation, is likely a far more significant spreader of right-wing misinformation than anything on social media."
Trivially true, in the sense that almost all social media platforms are left-wing, and are more interested in spreading left-wing misinformation. Not true in any other sense.
Social media platforms spread the misinformation of the user base.
To the extent that social media platforms are biased, they are biased towards a mass audience, which means suppressing the fringes that would tend to push most people away.
To the extent that social media platforms are biased, they are biased towards a mass audience, which means suppressing the fringes that would tend to push most people away.
JP, I doubt that generalization still applies. An older publishing model, edited publishing, did have a centralizing tendency—in the sense that publishers often sought to exclude content outside the preferences of their particular curated audiences. But taken as a group, publishers took advantage of business opportunities to fill a broad range of audience preferences, by diversifying offerings—including those which reached pretty far toward the fringes. The market as a whole was not so much an intentional centralizer as it was a reflection of something like a bell curve among audience types. Socially typical audiences were more numerous than fringe audiences, but all of them were served more or less in proportion to their market power.
The internet giant model used today works much differently. For one thing, it lacks the geographic limitations which guarded many audience distinctions among traditional publishers. Traditional publishers could operate in essentially the same subject-matter/audience-characteristic niche, but nevertheless avoid rivalry on the basis of the limited geographic reach of each publication. That diversified publications.
For would-be internet giants, under today's rules, that would be bad business. All-important network effects would suffer. Network effects thrive under monopolistic business practices—the more far-flung the better.
Left to itself, the internet giant model would be delighted (for purely business reasons) to cater to curated fringes on the same basis as it caters to everyone else. In fact, it has succeeded enormously at doing that. Its business model is much closer, in practice, to turning each person into a private fringe of his own. Viewpoint diversity is largely taken for granted and completely accepted. Demographic distinctions have become the new market separators. They provide a basis to escape market competition, and to establish monopolistic market niches which enable maximized network effects. That in turn serves ad sales, which is the entire point.
Except for those considerations, and one other, the internet competitive model has thus been to monopolize insofar as possible a particular demographic niche, and then to boost monetization (ad sales opportunities) by curating prolonged attention from everyone in the niche. One method discovered to do that has been to actually encourage fringe and controversial content. Misinformation works great for that.
But there is still the one other factor I mentioned in passing above. The combination of no editing, fringe content, and monopolized markets invites public hostility. It invites demands for government censorship—sometimes with an eye to suppression (suppression of both libel, and unpopular views), sometimes in the form of demands for compulsory inclusion.
And that no-editing, fringe-content, and monopolized-markets combination—which might otherwise serve advertising sales—can still be bad business. Many advertisers will not want their brands sullied by association with abhorrent content, conspiracy content, or hoax content, even if those reliably increase attention time.
For that reason, internet publishing giants have found it good business practice to stay inconsistent about use of their editing prerogatives. To maximize audience, and increase ad sales time, fringe content can be encouraged. To placate offended advertisers (or would-be government censors) fringe content can be suppressed. Publisher policy to adjust the balance according to the most recent emergency seems to be the order of the day.
While all that goes on, the public life of the nation falls right out of the picture. News gathering capacity declines steadily, because nothing in the business model demands news gathering. To control libel becomes a practical impossibility, because the business model demands no editing. Court capacity to match the resulting torrent of defamation will never exist. Hoaxes and conspiracy theories abound. Election disruptions without limit become perpetual—with fights over the last election merging with corrupt contests to undermine the next one.
Seeing all that, alarmed by it, with no understanding of publishing, nor of internet business models, nor any insight into what economic practices support creation of the information it relies upon, a beleaguered public turns to government to intervene. It demands that Congress step in. God help this nation.
"Social media platforms spread the misinformation of the user base."
No, social media platforms curate the 'misinformation' of the user base. What they do like they promote, what they dislike they suppress. They don't let the information spread as the users want.
Bellmore, successful publishers curate audiences. To make your response relevant, explain, "What they do like/what they dislike," Publishers have reasons to prefer many curation decisions that have nothing to do with prejudice against particular viewpoints. But of course they remain free under the 2A to publish what pleases them, and decline to publish what does not please them, no matter what the viewpoints.
It is important to keep it that way. If that bothers you, I suggest figuring out some change in policy about publishing which will make it bother you less, while leaving that feature untouched.
Clever, using the 2A to blunt Brett's opposition to social media companies. But I don't think he's going to buy it, nor should he.
I'm not going to buy it because I don't share Lathrop's insistence that platforms facilitating sharing user originated content are publishers. When these platforms originated, they were no more publishers than the telephone company. And to the extent that they've changed their roles to be publishers instead of platforms, Section 230 no longer applies to them anyway.
Section 230 of the 2A?
Number of times § 230 uses the word platform: zero.
Section 230 applies to them regardless of what you call their "role."
What it says is, "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider".
Note that section 230 specifically prohibits treating these entities as "publishers".
Bellmore, if these, "entities," practice publishing activities, what Section 230 says to the contrary ought not make any difference with regard to their constitutional protection. Their publishing activities get press freedom on the same terms as any other publisher's publishing activities do. You can't strip away constitutional protections with legislation. If you could, the 2A wouldn't mean much in gun control debates.
Right, you can't lose constitutional rights by legislation.
But you're rather monomaniacal about refusing to understand the distinction between a "publisher", which originates and selects its own content, and a "carrier", which just facilitates others' communications. The reason that the interactive computer service isn't treated as a publisher or speaker of information provided by another, is that it isn't engaged in publishing, just transmission.
You can't sue the phone company for slander just because somebody else uses their phone to slander someone. The same principle applies when you're transmitting the written word for others. So long as you don't exercise editorial control over what is transmitted, you're not risking libel if the actual source of the content defames somebody. Because you're NOT a publisher. In this case, not being the publisher protects you, and statutes can ADD to the Constitution's protections, even if they can't subtract from them.
See Sandler V Calcagni: Print on demand companies are not legally publishers if they don't exercise editorial control. Platforms that don't engage in moderation are just online 'print on demand', they're not legally "publishers" for liability purposes.
The goal of Section 230 was NOT to permit platforms to avoid liability for user comments. They already had that if they acted as common carriers. Rather, it was to allow them to avoid BECOMING liable for user comments as a result of moderating them.
It was written to create a limited safe harbor for certain sorts of moderation, by confirming that you could get away with doing it without being treated as a publisher. Without becoming liable for content you didn't remove.
And that's fine. The real problem with Section 230 wasn't the limited safe harbor, it's that the 'or otherwise objectionable' ended up interpreted so broadly that the safe harbor became the entire ocean, platforms could exercise full editorial powers and STILL not be legally treated as the publisher. Even though they'd become publishers in reality.
So you get a class of publishers who are immune to libel law on the pretext that they're just passive conduits, but which are in reality exercising full editorial powers.
Bottom line, though: If a platform does NOT exercise any editorial power, if it just acts as a conduit for others' words, it isn't a publisher, any more than the phone company is a publisher. Really, all we need is to reduce that safe harbor back to a harbor, not an ocean.
Sigh. You were actually doing so well (though understanding § 230 better than Lathrop is like outsmarting a toddler in a game of peekaboo.) There is in fact no "pretext." It was exactly the opposite, as you yourself just explained to him. The purpose of § 230 was to allow them to exercise full editorial powers without risking liability. If they were just "passive conduits" they wouldn't need § 230.
No, Brett. Setting aside your failed statutory interpretation — "otherwise" is not "limited" — you are confusing (c)(1) and (c)(2). They are two separate and independent provisions. The immunity from being treated as a publisher of user content is unconditional. It does not turn on the "otherwise objectionable" language. (c)(1) says that if they're an interactive computer service, they don't have liability for user content. Period.
(c)(2) separately says that you can't sue them for moderating stuff. But that's already not a thing. Delete (c)(2) entirely, and you still can't sue them for other people's content (because of (c)(1)), and you can't sue them for moderating content (because of the 1A).
Bellmore, so-called internet platforms are not the least like common carriers. Common carriers do not assemble an audience and monetize it. Publishers do that. Common carriers do not assemble their audience by use of expressive content which the public is free to consume or leave alone at its pleasure. Publishers do that. Common carriers do not derive their principal revenue from sale of advertising. Publishers do that. Common carriers do not compete with publishers, to the detriment of the publishers.
So-called internet platforms do all those things which publishers do. They compete against publishers for publishing market dollars, to the detriment of the other publishers. So-called internet platforms are unmistakably publishers, as a matter of fact.
That entitles those businesses to the same 1A press freedom protection that any other publisher gets. Congress cannot strip that away by legislation.
So Nieporent, you seem to be trying to play it cagey on the question whether interactive computer services are in fact publishers, while insisting that whatever they are, Section 230 just singled them out for an extra measure of protection against libel. Have I got that right, or do you insist that they are not publishers?
"The purpose of § 230 was to allow them to exercise full editorial powers without risking liability."
From Section 230: "(2)Civil liability
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—
(A)any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or
(B)any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1)"
That's sure some strange qualifications when you're guaranteeing full editorial control.
I am not being cagey. I am trying to explain that you misunderstand the analysis. "Are they publishers" is either a legal question or a philosophical one. You want to conflate the two, and insist that if we describe them as publishers colloquially that has legal significance. That's not a proper approach.
Legally, they are not publishers — with respect to other people's content — for the purpose of tort liability. That's because § 230 says that they shall not be treated as publishers with respect to other people's content. They are publishers for the purpose of tort liability with respect to their own content.
Now, you mistakenly think that the 1A gives people/entities special rights as publishers, so you think the question you ask is important. But it's not. They have 1A rights to decide what content to distribute, because generally speaking all private people/entities do. (There may be an exception for those who use the public airwaves, based on a basically outdated theory of spectrum scarcity, but that's a special case.) So if your underlying question is, "Do interactive computer services have the 1A right to decide what content to carry and not carry?", then my answer is unequivocally yes.
Sigh. It's like you completely ignored what I said. Once again, you are confusing (c)(1) and (c)(2). It is (c)(1) that says they have no liability for other people's content. And none of those "qualifications" are included in there. It's absolute immunity, not conditioned on anything.
To explain this for the umpteenth time:
(c)(1) says that you can't sue them for what other people post.
(c)(2) says that you can't sue them for moderating your content.
Two totally independent, unrelated protections. But the thing is, not only do you misread the italicized language as narrow qualifications rather than as overwhelmingly broad, but there's no cause of action for moderating your content anyway, other than (potentially) contractual. "The NYT didn't print my letter to the editor" is not a legally cognizable argument.
Bellmore, constitutionally, the semantic publishers/platforms distinction is meaningless. Constitutionally, they are what their activities and practices tell you they are. Legislation is powerless to change the Constitution.
If businesses do publishing activities, they are constitutionally publishers. If success in the market they compete in takes money from other businesses which are publishers, then businesses compete in the publishing marketplace, as publishers.
From the first moment they offered expressive materials, for the public at large to use or ignore at its pleasure, Facebook and Twitter became publishers. From the first time they sold advertising, Facebook and Twitter entered the publishing marketplace, to compete as publishers.
Of course you want to deny those points. You want government censorship of Facebook and Twitter. No doubt you—and a lot of other right wingers—would be fine with government censorship of other publishers as well. Hostility to institutional media is a widespread characteristic among the political right, here and abroad.
If you are actually concerned about Facebook and Twitter, because you think their market dominance has become problematic for the public life of the nation, then I join you in that. But if we are to correct that problem, we cannot afford to throw away indispensable liberty by choosing a remedy which recklessly burdens 1A press freedom. Get rid of your unfounded hostility to constitutional protection for institutional media, and you will be able to think more clearly.
Constitutionally permissible protection for press freedom will be found in policies to promote profusion and diversity among private publishers. Experience has taught that Section 230 undermines both profusion and diversity among publishers. Instead, Section 230 encourages giantism, and oligarchical business models. With Facebook and Twitter, as with all publishing businesses, the expressive side of the business inevitably gets curated to foster business success. Economic Darwinism dictates failure for businesses which ignore that rule.
Section 230 has thus become an adversary of press freedom. Bellmore, if you were wise, you would join me to advocate repeal of Section 230, and seek to protect liberty for right-wing speech that way.
Fun fact: just as the word "platform" does not appear in the text of § 230, the word "publisher" does not appear in the constitution.
There is no such thing as "constitutionally publishers." There are just people exercising their free speech rights, and people who aren't.
Nieporent, funny you don't even mention press freedom, which is freedom accorded to . . . publishers.
Also? Press freedom and speech freedom are separately enumerated. Get used to it, and keep them straight.
There is no legal distinction between freedom of speech and freedom of the press, except that one is oral and one is written.
"Nieporent, funny you don't even mention press freedom, which is freedom accorded to . . . publishers."
Which is a freedom accorded to... everybody. The freedom to use the press, just as freedom of speech is the freedom to use your mouth to speak.
Nieporent, of course there are distinctions between speech freedom and press freedom. You as a lawyer obviously know them, but for some reason pretend you don't. I wish you would try to be forthright.
For instance, nobody who is actually practicing speech freedom typically gets found liable for slander said by another, but in a libel trial a publisher can be found liable on the basis of content supplied by a contributor. People who actually practice speech freedom typically do not get sued for libel. People who publish libels, and get sued, and lose, typically pay more severe damages than people who get sued for slander and lose. Have you ever heard of anyone who published a damaging falsehood with actual malice getting sued for slander? Does anything analogous to the actual malice standard apply in a slander trial? People who speak cannot as a practical matter be legally prevented from their utterances beforehand. Publishers practicing press activity can be enjoined legally. Is there any law or regulation applicable to speech which is akin to commonplace required publication of legal notices? Do you acknowledge or deny that a theory of damages applied to libel is that libel can be more damaging than mere speech, because a libel creates a permanent public record which may be impossible to expunge?
Speech and publishing are not the same activity, and the law recognizes differences. You do not even seem sophisticated about the differences, especially when you say stuff like, "There is no legal distinction between freedom of speech and freedom of the press, except that one is oral and one is written." Really? Is a private written communication between two parties an example of speech freedom or press freedom? If you can't say which without explanation, you still have to acknowledge they are not alike.
I think in this forum you sometimes attempt to buffalo legal laymen by insisting on stuff you would never dare say in front of a judge. That is not a good look for a lawyer publishing legal commentary world-wide. Or did you suppose you were merely speaking?
Did you even notice what I did there? I said, "publishing," even though you are not the publisher of this forum, and yet I said so accurately. Your participation in publication makes you subject to joint liability with the actual publisher for libel, but not for slander. Or at least it would if this forum were not published online, with the actual publisher, but not you, relieved by Section 230 of liability for libel. Yeah, no differences at all.
Bellmore, have you even noticed that your advocacy posits a legislative power to strip some, "entities," as you call them, of the ability to practice publishing under constitutional protection? If that were true, and I had the political power to make it happen, I would legislatively strip publishing power from all per-share voting corporations, and require legally that all corporations which do business as publishers organize on some basis other than per-share voting.
"Bellmore, have you even noticed that your advocacy posits a legislative power to strip some, "entities," as you call them, of the ability to practice publishing under constitutional protection? "
Nope, because it doesn't. "Congress shall make no law": The 1st amendment limits Congress in infringing these rights regardless of who is exercising them.
What Congress can do, and did with Section 230, is extend protection beyond that demanded by the Constitution.
Lathrop: pretty much every word here is wrong. It's so confused that I don't even know where to begin. You don't understand the legal protections for speech or the press, and you don't understand the liability to which each is potentially subject. Yes, the actual malice standard applies to both libel and slander. The illegality of prior restraint applies to both libel and slander. I don't know what "required publication of legal notices" even means; of course sometimes people involved in a legal matter are required to publish notices, but that's an obligation imposed on the people, not on the publications. (Publications don't need to be required to do it; it's free money for them! They usually lobby to be one of the publications that qualify for such notice requirements.) Someone can make an argument that libel causes more harm than slander, but that's just a factual claim in a particular case, to be evaluated by a judge or jury, not a legal rule.
Can you read? I don't have to "say which," because I just said that they're the same thing!
Your legal certainty is exceeded only by your lack of legal knowledge.
Thanks for the help Nieporent. Got a cite to a slander case where the result turned on the actual malice standard?
Also noticed you evaded a question up there. Is a private written communication between two parties an example of press freedom?
Hmm. So let's see. I can provide a cite, and one of two things will happen:
1) You will run and hide and never acknowledge that I posted it.
2) You will claim that the courts are actually getting it wrong.
But here's a recent example, from the first paragraph of a decision dismissing a lawsuit against Fox:
This was actually a more difficult challenge than it appeared, not because this isn't a blindingly obvious statement of the law to someone who has actually studied the law rather than merely publishing a newspaper, but because the courts rarely bother to distinguish between libel and slander because the standard is identical. Many of the cases just say "defamation."
I did not "evade" it. I said it's a meaningless question. Call it freedom of the press, call it freedom of speech. It makes no difference. There's no context in which the distinction need be made.
Oops, and thanks.
1A, not 2A. Think of Belmore, type 2A, I guess.
"They don't let the information spread as the users want."
They let users spread whichever information will keep them stuck to the platform. This means feeding them whichever information keeps them engaged, as measured by their algorithms.
The product the social media companies sell is the eyeballs of the user base.
"This means feeding them whichever information keeps them engaged, as measured by their algorithms."
If that were the whole truth, they'd be less offensive. No, if they find their algorithms are spreading information that they don't like, they tweak their algorithms to stop it's spread.
Capitalism has its critics, starting with Brett Bellmore.
Indeed, just as democracy is the 'least worst' form of government, capitalism is the least worst economic system. Nobody works harder to undermine it than actual capitalists.
It has manifest problems, it's just that everything else is a lot worse.
But my point here was just to correct your factual mistake: They don't let the algorithms mindlessly maximize engagement, they modify them to push content that reduces engagement, and block content that would increase it, because they don't just care about the bottom line in terms of money. (They'd be less of a problem if they did.)
These days, they take their profit in social and political influence. Much better than money, because nobody taxes you for posting a loss in order to swing an election.
They don't let the algorithms mindlessly maximize engagement, they modify them to push content that reduces engagement, and block content that would increase it, because they don't just care about the bottom line in terms of money.
Right out of your ass.
Only to a point. Facebook and Twitter have suspended many accounts for information which F&T determined was misinformation, despite it being information which would have kept users stuck to the platform.
Facebook and Twitter own Facebook and Twitter. One of the things you get from owning things is deciding who gets to use your stuff.
3ducerist, backstopping Pollock's point about ownership is the constitutional principle of press freedom. That includes liberty to publish at will. Publishers remain free to decide at pleasure, what content to publish, and what content to reject.
And what you can't accept is that "platforms" are something different from "publishers". They're closer to the telephone company than the New York Post, a means for customers to communicate with each other, not to hear what somebody else WANTS them to hear.
Not everything that puts words on a page has to be a publisher.
And what you don't understand is that "platform" isn't a legal category, and that what you seem to mean by that — a common carrier, like a telephone company — is something that they only are if they want to be.
Yes, Twitter could say, "We are not going to moderate. We are going to be a passive conduit of other people's communications, without taking any position on any content." (Well, they could say that — if they wanted to go out of business.) But they didn't say that. They've never said that. They've always talked about, e.g., "community standards" and moderating content which doesn't fit their views.
Our politicians routinely lie to us. Huge shameless easily identifiable lies. Just to pick a few current ones we’ve been told that the BBB wouldn’t cost a dime and that it’ll be deflationary. And that this inflation that began months before Putin did anything is Putin’s fault. Meanwhile Trump won the 2020 election (a landslide!) and our schools are chock full of groomers.
Do these count as misinformation, or does it only count if a private citizen says something (that might even be true) that doesn’t conform to the orthodoxy?
you're conflating misinformation and disinformation, which are not interchangeable terms.
Misinformation, disinformation. Who gives a shit? It still amounts to huge amounts of incorrect information in the public realm.
Is one type of incorrect information bad and the other good? It’s good bad information if it comes from our betters? Or if it comes from rightthinkers? Bullshit.
I think it's actually pretty important to draw the line between spin and lying.
When you don't, you get nihilism and politicians can say anything.
Herschel Walker just completely making up his schooling and early business experience should be beyond the pale in a way a forward-looking prediction like 'my policies won't have a downside' is not.
Yes it absolutely should. So should Joe Biden claiming that a $3 trillion bill will have no cost.
Let people decide whether they support something or not with accurate facts. “Spin” = “lie”.
And the Biden people are the ones yelling the loudest about misinformation. Fuckin’ hypocrites n
No cost is not what he said.
And your assumption of but-for cause ignores a lot of other inflationary stuff going on around the world.
Not saying it's not a factor, but you're clean causal narrative is almost certainly wrong.
It’s precisely what he said. Exactly word for word. As did his press secretary.
Why, I think you’re engaging in mis/dis information. Time to shut your account down I reckon.
Just one quote, from his Twitter on 9/27/21 - “My Build Back Better Agenda costs zero dollars”.
Don’t understand why you won’t recognize blatant facts.
"Let people decide whether they support something or not with accurate facts. “Spin” = “lie”. "
Disinformation is when you get lied to, misinformation is when you didn't understand what you were told. That's why it's important to distinguish between the two.
"And the Biden people are the ones yelling the loudest about misinformation"
Donald "fake news" Trump is a Biden people now? Didn't see THAT coming.
The biggest difference between misinformation and disinformation is intent.
Misinformation is information that is incorrect, but that the presenter doesn't know at the time is incorrect. Think of a news report where they are reporting information as it is happening. That information is often not accurate (two men vs. a man and a woman vs. one man vs. three men, for example) and there are many examples of that misinformation being corrected as better, more accurate information comes in.
Disinformation is information that is incorrect, the presenter knows it's incorrect, and they either don't care about the accuracy or are actively sending out false information.
Those are two very different things. One is a mistake, the other is an active effort to mislead the recipient.
With that definition, we classify much as misinformation (and allow many to claim it as such) that is really disinformation.
I agree with the distinction being important and valid. I just think we have a lot of people engaging in disinformation and claiming it's misinformation. We also have a lot of MSM and the tech giants classifying anything they disagree with as disinformation (even if they use the term misinformation) and then banning it's dissemination. As well, a lot of disinformation from MSM (yes that includes Fox).
"We also have a lot of MSM and the tech giants classifying anything they disagree with as disinformation (even if they use the term misinformation) and then banning it's dissemination."
No, objectively, we do not. There isn't a tech giant that has the power to ban dissemination of disinformation. The best they can do is ban it (and its agents) from their equipment. Alex Jones isn't in any way preventing from making whatever batshit-crazy conspiracy-theory videos he wants. He just can't use YouTube to distribute them to people. Boo-frickin'-hoo.
3ducerist, cautious private publishers often decline to publish material while they remain in doubt about its validity. Of course, levels of doubt can be affected by prior expectations, or even prejudices. That cannot mean there is some kind of legal process to compel them to publish what they doubt.
"BBB wouldn’t cost a dime and that it’ll be deflationary"
Using the same dishonest accounting tricks that are used for tax cuts and other politically-motivated legislation proposed by either side, BBB was "paid for". Much like the tax cuts that have passed since I was born in 1970 (and literally every supply-side law ever passed), they proved to be gimmicks. Which is why the Bush and Trump tax cuts have added to the deficit.
I believe that BBB would have had the exact same outcome. Even if all of the projections provided exactly as much revenue as projected (ROFL), it would still have added to the deficit as the gimmicks sunsetted and the benefits continued.
This is a problem of the GAO accounting formulas and politicians' understanding of how to subvert them. I don't know whether to blame it on partisans thinking "if they did it, we have to do it to keep up" (an arms-race logic), or them thinking "this is so important it's worth raising the deficit", or something else.
Whether or not BBB would have been deflationary is supposition and projection. It didn't pass, so we'll never know.
I personally believe it would have been inflationary, but I believe that an increased money supply/"free money" from the Fed for businesses and government spending increases economic activity at the expense of raising inflation. And the Fed kept the rate too low for too long.
"Meanwhile Trump won the 2020 election (a landslide!) and our schools are chock full of groomers."
Dozens, if not hundreds, of investigations into claims of widespread voter fraud have been done. Even the ones that desperately wanted to find malfeasance (like the CyberNinjas effort) found nothing. Continuing to believe that Trimp won the election at all, let alone in a landslide, is an example of disinformation or (if you want to be as charitable as possible to the claimants) misinformation.
I recently learned that the "groomers" accusation from those on the far right is an accusation that is not connected to any evidence of actual grooming. It is a general ad hominem attack on anyone to their left (which is most people).
I recently learned that the "groomers" accusation from those on the far right is an accusation that is not connected to any evidence of actual grooming. It is a general ad hominem attack on anyone to their left (which is most people).
The "groomer" thing is a vile paraphrase. Exactly like "don't say gay" is a vile paraphrase.
Those who oppose the Florida law might contain a small number of actual would-be groomers of small children, but mostly, they just oppose the law. Those who support the law might contain a small number of would-be silencers of the word "gay", but mostly they just support not teaching very young children about sexual matters as part of a school curriculum.
But it isn't aimed at "sexual matters", is it? It is aimed at preventing references to or discussion of people who love (as in care for/marry/create a family with) people of the same sex.
Talking about straight families doesn't require discussing sexual matters. Talking about gay families doesn't, either. So the law isn't about preventing age-inappropriate sexual topics, is it?
The Trump and Bush tax bills changed the rates at which income is taxed. The did not reduce revenues over the long term. In fact, federal tax revenues currently are at record levels. It is spending levels that have been increasing even faster than the record revenues that is increasing the deficit.
So, is Ashland's post misinformation or disinformation? I don't think Ashland himself intends to deceive -- he probably believes it. Maybe his negligence makes it disinformation? Or maybe his intent isn't the one that matters, and it's disinformation because the original source was intending to deceive.
"So, is Ashland's post misinformation or disinformation?"
No.
I suppose this demonstrates the larger issue that Ilya's talking about. Most everyone is happy to believe whatever untruths are necessary for them to maintain their preferred worldview.
James and Ashland, for instance, seem perfectly content believing that reducing tax rates, ridiculously, has had no negative impact on tax revenue.
And no, I don't expect to change your mind so I have no desire to get into a cite war. So feel free to turn this around on me. But I know you know deep down that you're wrong anyway. Not consciously, maybe, but enough to give you some cognitive dissonance at a low level. That's why disinformation is so effective, you know. It's an emotional salve for your deep unease over the falsehoods you believe in.
"James and Ashland, for instance, seem perfectly content believing that reducing tax rates, ridiculously, has had no negative impact on tax revenue."
Randal seems perfectly content to assign opinions to people.
". But I know you know deep down that you're wrong anyway. Not consciously, maybe, but enough to give you some cognitive dissonance at a low level."
Those things you just know that turn out to be not true... THAT'S misinformation.
You're misinformed.
Feel free to correct the record regarding your opinion.
After all, which is it? Did I misrepresent your opinion, or am I misinformed? Can't very well be both, unless you're bizarrely saying you agree with me and we're both wrong.
"So, is Ashland's post misinformation or disinformation?"
I have no reason to believe that he knows he is saying something untrue, so it is only misinformation. If there is something that shows he knows the truth, but has chosen to make the incorrect statement above, that would change the mis- to dis-.
But that seems problematic. It seems better for the misinformation / disinformation label to attach to the information itself. If the motivations of each speaker have to be considered, then disinformation turns immediately into misinformation as soon as someone believes and repeats it.
At a very basic level for my understanding (which may be wrong) all these budget gimmicks are that it's 'over 10 years'? Except that I don't think those budgets are ever held longer than 3 or 4 years aren't they? Or in some cases it's all changed the following year?
I know there's a lot more to it than just that but it didn't take long for me to realize the whole 'paid for' lie that both sides use. It's straight up malfeasance as far as I'm concerned. Sadly the remedy has failed us, because once entrenched in power elected officials currently have a tendency to stay in power (that's an indictment of both parties, just to clarify).
The most common gimmick is to pass a tax or other revenue-generating element that will lat the whole 10 years, but have the spending element sunset in, for example, three years.
The GAO scores based on the content of the law. So even if everyone knows a benefit will be reauthorized for the whole 10 years (because letting a popular benefit lapse would be political suicide), the "cost" is only factored in based on 3 yeats.
This works for tax cuts as well. If you make a popular, but deficit-inducing, element sunset after 3 years, the GAO will only score it for those 3 years, not the full 10.
And that's just a simple example of how to game the GAO system.
If you are someone who believes the deficit (not the debt, the deficit) needs to be reduced to zero ASAP, those gimmicks should infuriate you regardless of whether you support or oppose the law that uses them.
I think you can be angry about those gimmicks even if you think some deficits are ok. I think you can be angry about those gimmicks even if you support the underlying policies (including their renewal), if you also believe that democracy benefits from a well-informed public.
The thing about budget tricks is that projecting them for ten years only works if you keep control of the government for ten years. Or have the power to pass legislation. Remember when Trump was insisting that Team R was going to have a "better than Obamacare" replacement for the ACA that he was going to sign on "day one"? Whatever happened to that?
Or ever intended for them to work in the first place, don't forget that.
"Whatever happened to that?"
I suppose he stupidly assumed that the GOP establishment hadn't been lying about wanting to replace the ACA.
Your entire essay is meaningless because the whole 'misinformation/fake news' debate which is as old as time is about weakening the other guys influence and extending your own. It always has been through out herstory and across the world. Not finding the truth. Politifact, snopes etc al are advocacy groups, not factfinders. No different from CNN or DU, except for the guise they take
What is DU?
The real issue is not so much "misinformation" (another made up word with no real meaning) as it is the fact that the truth can be labeled "misinformation" by the elites, and they can make it stick. The constitution supposedly guarantees us free press, but it doesn't tell us how to keep it free in the face of propaganda.
"The real issue is not so much "misinformation" (another made up word with no real meaning)"
misinformation has a real meaning. It's that stuff you know that just isn't actually true.
Longstobefree, actually the Constitution does tell you how to keep publishing free. You keep government out of it. No regulation of publishers. Then you let private parties practice the activities of a free press, in competition, with as many participants as care to participate. Profusion and diversity among private publishers is your best assurance that the truth will get published. Then you rely on the marketplace of ideas to sort out which publishers win out.
If you want to see that back in action, full strength, you ought to join me in calling for repeal of Section 230, which has proved to be a congressional blunder.
You can ignore anything Lathrop says about Section 230. Make that "should".
Yeah, sorry Stephen but I have to agree with James here. Your prior publishing experience has warped your perspective on this issue.
Randal, explain how.
I suggest the contrary—I suggest that lack of publishing experience has crippled public understanding of Section 230. Problem is, to understand the meaning of a law, you have to understand not only what the law says, but also how it affects the activity it purports to govern.
Folks without publishing experience naturally focus only on the expressive activity involved in publishing, and try to settle controversies according to their expressive preferences. That includes almost everyone you see commenting here.
Publishers look also at effects on the business side—and on how those effects bear on expressive possibilities. The ability to reckon business effects on expressive possibilities is indispensable to publishing success. It is right at the heart of the business.
For anyone experienced in publishing business, Section 230's baleful effects were predictable simply by reading the law. I did not even become aware of the law until a couple of years after it passed. When I did become aware, and read it, I was stunned. It took about 30-minutes' reflection to predict most of what has happened since—the giantism; the resulting demands for censorship; the loss of national news gathering capacity; the proliferation of libel, fraud, hoaxes, etc. (I confess my earlier warnings were never insightful enough to predict election denial and attempted insurrection.)
Ever since those 30 minutes of reflection, I have been predicting those effects publicly—to widespread derision, based on nothing more than utopian dreams about the expressive possibilities Section 230 was thought to enable—but could never have delivered.
Those predictions I made have all come true. Before accusing me of, "warped perspective," reflect a bit on how that could have happened.
You're blaming the effects of the Internet on section 230. Many people made the same predictions as you about the impact the Internet would have on publishing and discourse way back in the 80s, well before section 230 was even a thing. It was already happening on self-published (i.e. totally unmoderated) platforms like Usenet.
Section 230 improved the situation considerably. It became economically feasible to operate a social media publishing site by allowing some limited moderation and editorial control without the publisher becoming liable for all content. Light moderation is way better than no moderation.
The problem is scale. You seem to imagine social media to be just like letters-to-the-editor. That was the pre-Internet way for non-journalists to get their opinions published. But back then, even if you were to write a letter, the chances of it getting published were slim. And not many people even tried.
Section 230 is about enabling Internet-scale editorials. Because of section 230, everyone in the world can publish multiple items per day, including these comments.
Repealing section 230 wouldn't turn back the clock to pre-Internet times. But it would eliminate every partially-moderated user content forum like this one, leaving only the totally unmoderated ones to take over.
Section 230 is about enabling Internet-scale editorials.
Randal, if that were true, there would be zero liability, and no need to edit. Opinion publishing incurs zero liability.
Your predictions are not informed by actual publishing experience. As with most internet commenters on this subject, you suppose the whole question is about content, and liberty for would-be contributors.
That leaves out the fact that the baleful effects of Section 230 occurred because of distortions that law inflicted on the business side of publishing, by disconnecting ad sales volume from its previously unavoidable proportional relationship with editorial effort.
Whatever its effect on content, the newly-decreed ability to publish everything without reading it first is what opened the door to unlimited advertising sales, publishing giantism, near-monopoly, and public clamor for government control.
Opinion publishing incurs zero liability? What are you talking about? If _that_ we're true, there wouldn't have been any need for section 230 in the first place. Libel is not what the Internet publishers are concerned about.
I don't see anywhere that I mentioned content. I mentioned scale, same as you: "the newly decreed ability to publish everything without reading it first." I get that that's what you're sad about. But like I said, section 230 isn't what enables that. The Internet enables that. Repealing 230 won't make the Internet go away, as much as you'd like it to.
Randal, I see the internet as a terrific opportunity to broaden publishing opportunities. The enormous cost advantages enabled by getting rid of ink, paper, presses, pre-press equipment, warehousing, and transportation, represent (typically) cuts of more than 70% compared to pre-internet publishing costs. That is an advantage so large that editorial effort could be far more than doubled, while still enabling notably larger profits than previously possible.
Under Section 230, nothing like that has happened. Section 230 has been an obstacle to increased press freedom using the internet, not a means to accomplish it. And now, to defend a Section 230-style internet—with monopolistic tendencies, sharply reduced editorial effort, and outlandish profits for a few—all most internet fans can think to do is to demand government constraint of publishing. That is a catastrophe for press freedom, and no one should be advocating it.
Your cramped view of the Internet -- as nothing more than cheaper paper for the traditional publishing industry -- is exactly what I meant when I said that your publishing experience has warped your perspective on this issue.
Randal, do you number yourself among the aggrieved—the ones whose ambition for the internet was to drive institutional media out of business? And now, because they are dissatisfied it has not happened, they want government to step in and make it happen?
If that is not the crowd you are in, I am having trouble seeing what your point is. Can you say more, about what publishing improvements you think the internet was supposed to provide, other than cost savings and broader access to publishing opportunities? I am delighted by those. You seem to want something else. What is it?
No, I don't count myself in that camp.
The Internet does six main things:
1. Removes barriers... all content is global
2. Democratizes publishing... anyone can put up a site for practically no capital
3. Instantaneous, no waiting a month (or even a day) for the next issue
4. Searchable and flat, I can find the content I want without regard to publisher
5. Interactive and social by virtue of being inherently bidirectional (blurring the line between publishing and communication)
And last but not least, the main one we've been talking about here...
6. Scale. There's no limit to the amount of content published or the number of consumers of a piece of content.
All of those elements make the Internet different from print publishing, leading to gigantism etc. I know you think there's a #7 Liability & Editing that includes section 230 and eclipses all the others, but that's just not the case... which is provable by looking at the Internet pre-section-230, which already had social media misinformation and signs (and certainly predictions) of gigantism. You're right that it had less advertising at the time, but that doesn't seem to be because of liability issues as much as because the audience was still relatively small and the technology and infrastructure didn't support them.
I've gotten what I wanted out of the Internet. I love the interactivity and lack of moderation, on the whole. It's you who are dissatisfied with it.
If the problem of misinformation presents a demand-side problem, or to the extent that there is both a demand-side and supply-side problem, supply-side only solutions are not likely to resolve the problem.
That is just mistaken. We do not need ideological or methodological analysis to prove the mistake. We have experience to go on. Prior to passage of Section 230, published materials got private editing prior to publication. Today's misinformation problems did not happen. Private editors kept misinformation issues from getting out of hand.
So long as that editing continued, during a very long interval, stretching many decades at least, nothing like the current misinformation crisis afflicted the public life of the nation. Note that I do not say there was no misinformation. I do not even say there was not deliberate misinformation, practiced as a business model. I say only that private editing managed, however it happened, to keep misinformation from turning into crisis. The nation was spared widespread uproar, for instance, over spurious allegations of ballot box tampering, managed by electronic remote manipulation, at the behest of South American governments. QAnon was not a thing.
Media misinformation tendencies—demand-side and supply-side—have always been there. They burgeoned as early as 150 years ago, and probably earlier still. Read Mark Twain on the subject—he was an expert who both critiqued gullibility, and provoked it, because he knew how to make that funny.
Today's misinformation crisis is by no means a creation of some recent malign change in the national character. With regard to critical thinking, the national capacity has always been sub-optimal. Here is William James, in 1904:
Reason assumes to settle things by weighing them against one another without prejudice, partiality, or excitement; but what affairs in the concrete are settled by is and always will be prejudices, partialities, cupidities, and excitement. Appealing to reason as we do, we are in a sort of forlorn hope situation, like a small sandbank in the midst of a hungry sea ready to wash it out of existence.
Although nothing much changed since, the sandbank survived until Section 230 came along, and bestowed practical license on a new business model—to publish anything without reading it first. That changed everything. It accounts for the eruption of today's misinformation crisis, and the flood tide of swill which threatens to breach James' sandbank.
The solution will be found by returning to time-tested policies to promote diversity and profusion among private publishers, and to restore editing at private discretion—without government demands or government oversight—as the means to govern misinformation. By that method government can be kept out, which is critical. Public misinformation can go back to being amusing, instead of terrifying.
It will not work perfectly. It never did. But it did work adequately—far better than anything post-Section-230—and it can do so again.
So repeal Section 230. But understand, there is a huge constituency built up for access to cost-free, world-wide, anonymous publishing. They will be clamorous. That clamor will have to be accommodated somehow.
The best way to begin will be to cut down the few internet giants, and replace them with thousands of alternative publishers. Repeal of Section 230 will probably accomplish that on its own, for business reasons. Without the giants' practically monopolistic control of national advertising sales, there will once again be resources to support diverse private media. Let the clamorous turn to those. Also among those thousands will be found enough fact-based publishers to restore workable balance to the national information supply.
If that business change is not sufficiently internet-friendly on its own, it may make sense to consider modifications to business regulations. It could be done with an eye to afford enhanced internet publishing access to the millions of essentially opinion-only publishers who should not go frustrated. Private editing to preclude libel would have to apply, but folks who publish almost nothing but opinion could be accommodated without much trouble, expense, or frustration. Libel laws do not apply to opinion.
"That is just mistaken. We do not need ideological or methodological analysis to prove the mistake. We have experience to go on. Prior to passage of Section 230, published materials got private editing prior to publication. Today's misinformation problems did not happen. Private editors kept misinformation issues from getting out of hand. "
Have you ever heard of Randolph Hearst? 120 years ago, most cities had multiple newspapers, and each one catered to a different subset of the population.
JP, what's your point? Are you suggesting that Hearst papers were the QAnon of their day? If so, I don't think you have that even close to right.
It is true that Hearst's newspapers were edited prior to publication. They were sometimes sued for libel. If you take Hearst papers as the bottom of the barrel, I doubt that is correct. At no time did any newspaper, Hearst or otherwise, convince so many Americans that a presidential election had been stolen that nearly half of Congress cowered in public agreement.
Maybe I am not getting what you are trying to tell me. Do you want to say more?
Let's trip down memory lane for some examples of quality Hearst journalism...
"“Marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes,” Anslinger frothed. He rang alarm bells in segregated America, warning that blacks and whites were dancing cheek-to-cheek in tea houses and nightclubs, where pot-maddened jazz bands performed what the Hearst papers called “voodoo-satanic music.”
" With an instinctual grasp of mass psychology, Hearst used his media empire to influence public policy (as when he pushed the U.S. government into war with Spain in 1898). His contempt for facts, his penchant for fabricated stories and doctored photos, and the hysterical tone of his newspapers gave rise to the pejorative expression “yellow journalism.”
"Hearst launched a smear campaign against Mexican migrants and their herb of choice. “Murder Weed Found Up and Down Coast—Deadly Marihuana Dope Plant Ready for Harvest That Means Enslavement of California Children,”
More than 2 million Mexicans, who had been welcomed while the U.S. economy boomed in the 1920s, were deported when it faltered in the 1930s—a policy of ethnic cleansing vociferously championed by the Hearst conglomerate."
"Hearst also cheered the rise of fascist forces in Europe. “Mussolini Leads Way in Crushing Dope Evil” was the headline of a Hearst press screed (3/9/28) that combined two of the owner’s pet passions—his support for fascism and the war on narcotics. Hearst Sunday papers published columns by German Nazi leaders, who conveyed Hitler’s point of view to 30 million readers without space for rebuttal."
Source
And he helped save us from The Yellow Peril:
"In that cultural vein, the phrase "yellow peril" was common editorial usage in the newspapers of publisher William Randolph Hearst.[76] In the 1930s, Hearst's newspapers conducted a campaign of vilification (personal and political) against Elaine Black, an American Communist, whom he denounced as a libertine "Tiger Woman" for her interracial cohabitation with the Japanese-American Communist Karl Yoneda."
And of course an actual war pales in comparison to 1/6, but there was the whole "Remember the Maine! thing:
"The late 1890’s was a period of “yellow journalism,” a time when competition between rival newspaper chains led to sensational reporting, lurid headlines, and a casual approach to the truth. Knowing that nothing sold newspapers better than a war, newspaper mogul William Randolph Hearst sent Frederic Remington, artist and reporter, to Havana with orders to report on the war in Cuba and its atrocities.
...
Remington sent a telegram back to Hearst reporting that there were no atrocities and no war, so he was coming home. Hearst famously wired back, “You furnish the pictures and I’ll furnish the war.” "
Absaroka, where do you think you saw me call the Hearst papers high quality journalism? They were newspapers edited to flatter particular prejudices. To that extent they contributed to the diversity and variety of media in their time. I am fine with that. Do you think they should have been suppressed?
His point was that the modern internet's disinformation isn't so different from what people like Hearst published.
"If you take Hearst papers as the bottom of the barrel, I doubt that is correct."
If you don't think 'reefer maddened Negroes raping white women' and 'yellow peril' are bottom of the barrel, what is? I mean, National Enquirer articles on alien ovary harvesting are pretty out there, but they do less harm.
"At no time did any newspaper, Hearst or otherwise, convince so many Americans that a presidential election had been stolen that nearly half of Congress cowered in public agreement."
Hearst - deliberately - started an actual shooting war. As in 'got a majority of congress to vote to approve a declaration of war'.
Absaroka, did Hearst blow up the Maine? No. Hearst catered to pre-existing, widespread public prejudice. Happenstance and politics started the war. Anyone could have described those prejudices. Hearst's special genius was not to create them, only to profit from them.
Same with those other vicious stereotypes you cited. Hearst took the temperature of the culture he had, he did not create it. That is part of the reason that Hearst's name is no longer the potent cultural signifier it was a few decades ago. He lacked originality. Hearst at the time echoed bigotries which were already overwhelmingly common, and would have been common whether or not the Hearst papers ever existed.
Your cites make that stuff look far more shocking to us now, than it ever seemed to almost anyone then. Remember that quote I included from William James? Did he sound shocked?
For contrast, consider the guy who showed up at Comet Ping Pong, to kill Hillary Clinton before she committed more child trafficking. Did that represent anything like a pre-existing widespread public prejudice? I'm betting you were surprised when you heard about that. That was brand new hoax-inspired delusion. Are you surprised now, to discover that same purpose-built delusion gone viral, with its own name added, and become a potent political signifier. Or did you expect that all along too?
Likewise with the stolen election. Knowing what you did about America, and all its political foibles, did you expect in the summer before the election that Trump would lose big, but go on campaigning for President until last month, claiming the election was stolen? My recollection is that a few sensitive souls on the left did expect something like that, to universal derision from almost everyone, left-wingers and right wingers alike.
Were you then saying, "Look out, those lefties are right?" Were you saying, "I know Trump, and I know the right wing. Count on this, more than half of Republicans in the House will refuse forever (despite overwhelming proof to the contrary) to say Trump lost?"
Even William James would never have expected any of that. Cost-free access to unedited, world-wide, anonymous publishing has put the public life of the nation in a place it has never been before. Genuinely shocking falsehoods appear out of nowhere, only to sweep half the population by storm. That same half is convinced the other half are just as deluded. Some even argue that others' delusions make their own delusions necessary and constructive. Really. That happens. You can read it on this very blog.
To create folly that original, and spread it around everywhere, it took legislation as novel as Section 230. With the best intentions in the world—and with not a whit of insight into the activities their new law purported to regulate—Congress passed it, and we've got it.
"Hearst's special genius was not to create them, only to profit from them."
Well, Hearst disagrees with you. Let me repeat from above: "Hearst famously wired back, “You furnish the pictures and I’ll furnish the war.” "
Are you not old enough to remember the pre-§ 230 daycare satanic panics of the 1980s and 1990s?
Sure, they were terrible. But I studied the Puritans. No real surprises there for me. Did daycare panics surprise you as much as Comet Ping Pong? Not me. Have you ever heard anything in the news as peculiar as Comet Ping Pong? I can't think of anything like it.
Daycare panics were much bigger and worse than Comet Ping Pong.
Wrong again, Nieporent. Comet Ping Pong is what morphed into QAnon. QAnon is much bigger, and much worse for the nation, than a few daycare panics, as unjust as they were to the people punished.
More generally, you leave me at a loss. I don't understand the point of your advocacy, except as a would-be foil for my comments. I can guess that maybe your libertarian tendency wants to assert that flood tides of internet swill, and practical elimination of enforcement against libel, plus hoaxes, election frauds, etc., are all harmless—just another route to the civic perfection promised by laissez faire everything.
But that leaves out the resulting agitation to get government to step in and dictate content decisions by publishers. Do you think that is harmless too?
And the daycare panic resulted in actual people going to actual prison. It wasn't just some kooks on the Internet; it was actual government officials. Without any social media to spread the hysteria. They still bought into it, pursued the issue more zealously than Javert, and caused nationwide panic.
Amusing that you cite this as an example of misinformation, since it never happened - the whole story was made up. So spreading it as an example of "misinformation" is, in fact, misinformation.
So if Google or the rest of their ilk had their way, you would be silenced for spreading the tale. Wouldn't that suck for you?
Here's a summary of the problems with that myth, as told by a profession media historian and myth-buster. Or you can read his book for a lot more detail.
Thanks, that's interesting! Some of that link's points seem a bit iffy, but I'd have to dig a lot more to make any cogent comments.
Nonetheless, Hearst isn't an example of journalistic excellence.
"JP, what's your point? Are you suggesting that Hearst papers were the QAnon of their day?"
No, nimrod. I'm pointing out that private editing doesn't dispense with misinformation the way you imagine it does.
Pollock, you don't know the half of it. Private editing dispenses with misinformation that does not get published. That you never see. All you see is what does get published. That is all anyone has ever seen—except for the editors who had been killing the real swill by the trash basket-full.
I asked a question. I will put it differently to make it easier to answer. These days, giant amounts of private animus gets published world-wide. Stuff inspired by neighbor disputes, and trouble with dogs. Nut-case defamation of local government people. Stuff like that.
From the local level, by example, by emulation, and by pure cussedness, that kind of thing works its way all the way to the top. We get libel suits over congressmen and cows; we get election hoaxes about election-equipment companies under shadowy South American electronic control.
That kind of stuff strikes me as new on the scene. You think it has always been that way? That someone could go into the local paper and get the editor to okay a story that his neighbor's wife is carrying on with the postman? And then, somehow, get that published world-wide? Really? That's what you think has been happening all along? It is happening now. You don't think the change matters?
JP, an alternative take on what you might be getting at is that almost everywhere 120 years ago, there were more news alternatives available. Which I guess would be you agreeing with me.
An alternative take is that you completely misinterpreted the point I made for you, and now you want to imagine that I agree with you.
Your capacity for self-delusion is high and your monomania regarding Section 230 of the CDA may be the source.
Pollock, apparently my take on Section 230 is no less consistent than yours. Neither of us is a monomaniac. Nor now, it continues as an enduring subject. If you suppose being in plentiful company makes you comparatively more-sane, good luck to you.
"Today's misinformation problems did not happen. Private editors kept misinformation issues from getting out of hand."
Newspaper editors have done nothing of the sort for most of American history. If you believe this, you have clearly never had to write a history paper using newspaper sources from the 1800 or 1900s. If you want to read some pure, uncut misinformation (frequently disinformation), check out hot button issues reported in newspapers 100+ years ago. All overseen by private editors.
The other problem with your analysis is the repealing Section 230 would throw the doors open to lawsuits against a platform for allowing someone else's words to be seen. It would create legal liability for one party based on someone else's free expression.
That will cause the exact opposite of what you claim. There will be no small platforms, since they are now liable for every post on their sites. The cost of managing (or editing) a comment section like this would be ruinously expensive. That's not even factoring in the legal costs of defending against every whiner who didn't like what someone else said. Rob Misek is a terrible person who says untrue things that piss a lot of people off, but Reason shouldn't have to defend itself in court if someone gets their panties in a bunch and wants to sue.
Even the giants couldn't afford that, since the scale-up would make it even more untenable. So you would have no small platforms, no large platforms, and no platforms in between.
The other problem with your analysis is the repealing Section 230 would throw the doors open to lawsuits against a platform for allowing someone else's words to be seen. It would create legal liability for one party based on someone else's free expression.
That will cause the exact opposite of what you claim. There will be no small platforms, since they are now liable for every post on their sites. The cost of managing (or editing) a comment section like this would be ruinously expensive.
Nelson, where did you get that peposterous idea? That very condition applies to everyone who publishes in print right now, small or large. It does not hamper them. Fifty years ago, when the nation was aswarm with local publishers—often with competing publishers in small-to-medium-sized markets—that condition applied full strength to all.
I was a publisher then, bootstrapping a new small-market publication short of capital. I did not find it an onerous burden, nor even a bother. I was at one time or another the managing editor of 4 small publications, all notably successful under my management, all legally liable, none of them in the least hampered by that liability.
That liability, by the way, is not an unfair arrangement, nor an unwise one. It is wholesome, and constructive. If you understood publishing, you would understand why.
Contrary to the suppositions of internet fans, publishing is not merely the sum of would-be commenters seeking outlet. Publishing your esteemed self-expressions is not something you do by your lonesome self. Someone else assembles an audience, curates it, and presents it to you as an opportunity. For the effort of doing that, that other party—the publisher actually—earns an opportunity to make a business of presenting your stuff to the public.
That publishing task can be performed well, or performed poorly. At its worst, publishing malfeasance creates real damage to third parties. Your part in a bad outcome like that is small potatoes—almost insignificant compared to the part played by the publisher.
The publisher makes your damaging content far more damaging than you could have made it. By failing in its duty to guide you within legal bounds, by multiplying and geographically extending your audience, and by thus empowering your misbegotten content not only to do its damage, but potentially to make that damage historically indelible, the publisher inflicts the bulk of all the damage. Those malign consequences are only slightly your doing. They are principally the publisher's doing. Positioned only as a would-be author, you could not accomplish any of that damage on your own.
Of course the publisher should be liable for what the publisher does. The publisher is trying to make money by doing it. That applies no less today to the likes of Facebook and Twitter than it ever did to the likes of a small-time local newspaper.
In short, that scheme of dual responsibility, shared alike by publishers and authors, has already been proven by experience to be conducive to a thriving publishing sector. The notion that re-imposition of that scheme would somehow kill off publishing this time is poppycock.
Cost savings inherent in transition from ink-on-paper to pixels more than offset any increase in editing effort. Those savings are far more than sufficient to accommodate, for example, editing the commenters on this blog—assuming this blog could be operated at a profit in the first place—which I do assume. I would leap at the chance to publish this blog, and expect to become rich doing it, while editing comments along the way.
Very few comments here even need editing. Well more than 90% of them are recognizable by speed reading as purely opinion. Opinion can be published safely without liability. Almost the entire internet is opinion. What is not opinion is only rarely even potentially damaging. It takes only a trained editor, not a lawyer, to spot potentially damaging stuff, and if need be to set it aside.
The editing burden you imagine is much smaller than you suppose. In more than 10 years managing media burdened with full liability, I never actually needed to consult a lawyer. All I had to do was suck it up, and forego publishing a few potentially damaging stories I was pretty sure were true, but which I knew I did not have sufficient evidence to prove in court. It did not take a lawyer to tell me that. Nothing about doing that prevented me from building a reputation as an especially aggressive investigative publisher.
The one place you might have a point to make applies to the internet giants. They got that big because Section 230 disconnected the quantity of advertising they could sell from the amount of editing they had to do. Freed of that constraint, the giants took advantage of network effects to create a national publishing system with which almost everyone is now unhappy, or at least pretending to be unhappy.
I do suspect that some of the complainers really object only that unwholesome giantism is available to those they think of as partisan adversaries. Those guys seem to want that system as it is, if only they can get control of it. They make no secret they want government to make it happen.
Screw them. That system can only work under government controls, which have no place in publishing. Repeal Section 230, and let a free market characterized by profusion and diversity among smaller private publishers once again become the guardian of press freedom in this nation.
What print publication are you thinking of that has a public comment section even approaching the volume of this one? And this one is small by Internet standards.
The Internet is simply qualitatively different than print. You've never understood that.
I think it may be more a matter of his not liking that, and wanting it changed.
I've had experiences with the model he talks about, used to write letters to the editor, the 'comment' of the newpaper era. The newspapers would ruthlessly curate and edit such letters, so nobody could effectively disagree with them where anybody would see it. Sometimes they'd even edit your letter to mean the opposite of what your original letter had said, and you had no recourse.
It was a dystopian nightmare for everybody but the newspaper editors, and those whose views they favored.
Bellmore, I can understand why you might have particular trouble getting letters to the editor published. You have a seemingly irrepressible habit to assert as facts your conjectures about other people's secret opinions.
Editors accustomed to trying to publish the truth, or looking for forthright commentary, don't know what to do with stuff like yours. What they don't know what to do with, I would train them to discard.
If they edited you instead, and changed your intended meanings, they should not have done that. It would not have happened in any publication I ran. You would have been in, or you would have been out, or before anything went in over your name I would have consulted you, and got your agreement—if I thought what you had to say was worth the trouble to consult.
As you can see by the fact that I don't mute you, and respond fairly often, I don't harbor secret objections to your commentary. In publications I ran, I preferred good comments which disagreed to all others. I think most editors do.
By the way, I used to get letters published in the NYT from time to time. Sometimes they wanted to make edits. They never did so without consulting me first, and getting my permission. The requested edits always shortened the letters, and usually improved improved them, including when I disagreed.
However, anyone who wants to publish letters in a publication subject to libel suits has to understand that disagreements must be framed as opinions, not as disputes over facts. Newspaper fact checking capacity is reserved for editorial efforts, and not often available to vet a letter which could be discarded with less effort.
Randal, pretty sure the NYT edits daily more comments than appear here. The numbers are certainly comparable. Quite a few NYT opinion pieces get comment totals higher than anything here. Sometimes more than 2,000 comments for a single article, all reviewed before publication, and all available pretty promptly. I don't think the NYT has to spend more to do that than this blog would be able to afford if it is being managed to run at a profit, which it may not be. If the proprietors prefer to use this blog for advocacy, and eschew the effort necessary to run it as a business, that is their decision to make.
But go ahead and explain to me the inherent qualitative differences of the internet. Put special emphasis on the features you prize the most. That might open the door to a more focused discussion than we have had so far.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/just-asking-for-censorship-11614295623
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-censorship-party-11614296803
"First Amendment protects speech that is “controversial” but distinguished “misinformation that causes public harm."
The problem is that "causes harm" is too vague. Hurting someone's feelings or expressing hatred of the beliefs of others or having a different (but reasonable) interpretation of things don"t count as "harm".
Take the Second Amendment. Some people believe that the phrase "a well-regulated militia" is significant. Some believe it is a purely individual right. If members of the second group gather in a legal protest outside a state house, following all gun laws concerning open carry laws and following all legal requirements, with guns strapped all over their bodies and scowling angrily at anyone they see, they are not "causing harm". Their right to free expression should not be infringed just because someone says they feel harmed (or "threatened" or "intimidated" or frightened"). If one of the protesters threatens or intimidates them through words or actions, that's different. But just standing around, angrily waving signs with a small armory attached to their body isn't "harm".
And I am using that example because it is what some say about Second Amendment protests outside legislative buildings. Also, I personally believe that those protests are intend to *feel* threatening to legislators.
But if they don't cross the line, you are not allowed to adjust the definition of "harm" to make it vague enough to justify infringing their rights. No matter how righteous you feel.
Nelson, your comment neglects that the 2A is not the only right in the Constitution. The 2A is on no more than equal status with the 1A, which guarantees a right to peaceable assembly. A political assembly which inflicts armed intimidation is not peaceable, and burdens the 1A unreasonably.
It is entirely reasonable to suppose that the conditions you describe would deny attendance at the same location to a would-be counter protestor, or many of them. It is even unreasonable to suppose that that to permit rival assemblies at the same place under the conditions you describe would be safe for anyone there.
Your advocacy is unwise.
https://freebeacon.com/campus/anti-israel-referendum-princeton-marred-by-rules-change/
Leftist election official: "This is how votes are counted."
While votes are being counted: "Did I say that? Sorry, but that's not how votes are counted."
Joe Biden: "What people don’t know is that 70 percent of the increase in inflation was the consequence of Putin’s price hike because of the impact on oil prices. Seventy percent."
Glenn Kessler and Washington Post: We report, you decide! (Literally, "we will leave this unrated and let readers decide for themselves.")
Democracy Dies In Darkness, because people like those shoot it during a mugging.
Didn't you say yesterday Biden was a puppet because he said 'this'll get me in trouble, but?'
You are not exactly one to ding politicians for shading the truth, if you guzzle down straight bullshit like that.
In news that will shock Sarcastr0, even puppets can tell lies if that's what their puppet masters make them say.
In news that will shock Michael P, swallowing lies one desperately wants to believe makes someone flatly unreliable as a source of news.
But to answer your question: Your misinterpretation of what I said is itself misinformation. I gave two examples (out of plenty) of things that Biden said that indicate he is not in charge. Whether it was on COVID-19 in April 2021, or at an EU-US/G7 summit in June 2021, or talking about the infrastructure bill in November 2021, he has repeatedly said he will get in trouble with his handlers. He also noted that he took direction about which reporters to take questions from during a G20 summit in October/November 2021.
Yes, he is a puppet, and you don't even bother to deny it. You just make a personal attack because you don't like the facts. You are rapidly approaching Rev AK levels of behavior.
People give people they work for advice on what their speech should include, and what should be avoided.
That's completely normal. My boss says 'I'll get in trouble with my staff for saying so, but...' all the time. She's not my puppet.
Does she say that in public events where she's supposed to present an image of being in charge? Does she lead off by saying who she was told to accept questions from?
Do you see the level of hair splitting you're required to do here? Defending something that's obvious shouldn't take so much work.
No, I see the lengths to which you -- as usual -- go to rationalize leftists behaving badly, even as the only person doing so. I see you claiming things that nobody else can verify as a core part of your rationalizations. I see you defending flatly wrong claims because you think they are close enough to being true. I see you inventing post hoc, as hoc distinctions to justify your double standards.
It shouldn't take an appeal to behavior that nobody else here can observe for you to argue that a puppet isn't a puppet.
" I see you claiming things that nobody else can verify as a core part of your rationalizations."
are you critical of your own rationalizations?
My boss does this all the time. In public. Smart people know that smart people are smart because they listen to good advice and understand the impact of their words on different audiences. So if you want to convince smart people that you're a good leader, it's smart to be transparent about your ability to listen and to understand consequences.
Dumb people think smart people have all the answers. So if you want dumb people to think you're a good leader, it's smart to act like you don't need to listen to anyone else and to call yourself a very stable genius.
If your boss tries to make you think that they don't need to listen to the people that work for them, either your boss is dumb or they think you are.
He has dementia and says dumb things, like the above statement. No BS
C'mon man!
To give the OP needed context, another point to mention is that the term, "Fake News," briefly meant something different than it came to mean. At first, it referred to actual fake news sites, formatted to look like periodical publications. Those were outright, intentional hoaxers. Probably, some of that is still going on. But of course if you called it, "fake news," now, everyone would thing you were just taking a side on some contested controversy.
That change was accomplished on purpose, by leaders who wanted to discredit the notion that objective standards of truth could ever apply to news coverage. Trump led the way, repeating, "fake news," again and again, about stories which did not fit the original context. He kept at it until the original context was forgotten, and his preferred context—there is no such thing as truth in news reporting—was firmly established among his acolytes.
Trump used the term "fake news" in a way that was not accurate. which comes as such a surprise, given his strict adherence to truthfulness in all other aspects.
that chump still tries to call himself my favorite President, when he doesn't even make my top 50.
LOL! I love that kind of joke!
You're literally saying that he was so bad that no matter who the 47th, 48th, 49th, and 50th Prrsidents are, Trump will still be worse.
It's not just a second-level joke, but there's a strong possibility you will end up being right.
Although Trump only loses to Andrew Jackson and Andrew Johnson by a hair. One of his hairs, so a much thinner margin.
Trump led the way? There is a Time magazine article which lays out how most of the major media acted in unison and with bias to affect the election and this is your take?
Geez
There is no such article. You didn't read the thing you're referring to, which describes nothing about what "most of the major media" did and does not describe anyone trying to affect the election, but rather the opposite.
No, Trump had things he said called "fake news" because the media disagreed with the message, not the facts, of what he said. Trump ran with it by returning the favor on the media lies in their reporting and that retaliation is where lying leftists like you start the story.
Nothing makes someone seem less like an authoritarian tyrant than calling thr press the enemy of the people, amirite?
"At first, it referred to actual fake news sites, formatted to look like periodical publications. Those were outright, intentional hoaxers. "
Minor correction, the term was initially deployed with some reference to sites like you describe, but also from the start mashed together with dissident opinions and inconvenient facts being communicated online, all in an attempt by the legacy media to increase censorship and preserve their quickly dwindling influence and perceived legitimacy.
This post is worthwhile, Prof. Somin, but you choose to post it at a faux libertarian, movement conservative blog operated by someone who endorsed John Eastman and Ted Cruz. Please consider asking your dean for a grant or stipend and purchasing a moral compass. That would improve your scholarly endeavors.
So faux libertarian = pro free speech?
Harvard Professor? More like Propagandist. By now most people know that Kissinger, his front and pal Klaus Schwab, and Harvard University have been working with treasonous government agencies and investment funds for their "great" reset, a power play to end all power plays, involving the manipulation of about $40 Trillion ($10 Trillion at Larry Fink's Blackrock, funds skimmed from unaudited government agencies, and numerous pension and investment funds). January 6th, fentanyl death George Floyd world riots, etc. - all hoaxes of Marxist-Feudalist globalist billionaires.
Funny how these rewarmed anti-Semitic conspiracies keep showing up here.
Odd that you chose "Ignorancevsstupidity" as a user name, given that you have both.
I was interested in the "Lemon Car" case. The problem is that people need cars and must buy. This is not the case with voting. Part of misinformation may be to get your supporters out to vote, another part is suppressing the votes that may go to your opponent. Part of misinformation is to get people weakly inclined to vote to throw their hands up, say they are all crooks and decide to just skip voting.
Get straight on the difference between misinformation and disinformation.
Moderation, I usually agree with your posts, but James is right. There is an important difference between misinformation and disinformation.
Misinformation is being mistaken about something. Disinformation is knowingly saying something that isn't true.
There IS a difference, my point here is that, in practice, the only difference the censors ever care about is that between things they want you to be able to hear, and things they want you not to be able to hear.
In practice.
"In recent years, there has been widespread concern that democracy is threatened by the spread of misinformation and "fake news" on social media and other similar new technologies."
This concept that democracy is threatened by free speech is just idiocy. The author has a law degree? Fake news and misinformation is free speech. Should we censor the CDC? They've laid some whoppers over the last few years.
Absolute free speech is what saves democracy. The censors are NEVER the good guys.
This concept that democracy is threatened by free speech is just idiocy
Karl Popper would like a word.
Go ahead, what free speech threat is there to democracy, what tyrannical state is not free because of free speech.
wreckinhall, in principle this nation is on the edge of that kind of crisis now. But you may not readily understand the principles involved. They begin with a notion of sovereignty which many commenters on this blog reject out of hand, even though the nation's founders embraced it. I won't go into the theoretical details.
The problem is that government officials are supposed to be not only obedient to the sovereign People, but also to guard jealously the People's sovereign power to act at pleasure to govern the nation, constrain the government, and vindicate rights. On that understanding, if someone under color of government authority continues too long to contest a sovereign decree—a certified election result is a sovereign decree—then outspoken opposition to that by a former head of state ceases at some point to be mere speech, and becomes instead the beginning of a contest for sovereignty over the nation. In other times and places that kind of speech was counted as high treason.
It does not meet this nation's constitutional definition of treason, but if the would-be new sovereign is of a tyrannical mind—and open contest for sovereignty is a bad sign—then what passes for speech, and is claimed as mere speech, is actually a dire threat. It is a breach of duty to protect the sovereign power of the People, and displays instead an intent to replace them. That threatens actual tyranny.
Free speech is not reason. Questioning an election result, even lobbying congress and electors is not treason.
If it was we'd already have precedent of a bunch of people in pink hats in jail.
Free speech includes questioning election results. Add it to the list. Its long with almost no exceptions except actual "fighting words" meaning someone is threatening you bodily harm with a reasonable means to execute it.
This effort is meant to censor political view point , period.
wreckinball, I did not say endless election denial was treason, because treason in America has a constitutional definition which does not fit these facts. I did suggest that it is activity akin to high treason—a different crime from a different place and time.
As it happens that time and its political thought remained influential while this nation was founded. You are free to understand or misunderstand the historical traditions of American constitutionalism. But you will not understand them properly if you suppose a constitutional right to free speech includes protection for advocacy to overthrow a completed election.
America's founders understood popular sovereignty as identical in character to the absolute sovereignty of the royal tradition they had overthrown. What they intended to change was not the nature of that awesome power, but who got to control it. The founders expected that putting it in the hands of the People jointly would change and tame the political import of an otherwise uncontrollable power. That expectation was vindicated in practice. Its legacy proved transformational world-wide—a work of genius.
But note that the genius of that work continued to include at the top of its hierarchy of government the same uncontrollable power as before, constrained by nothing. It was the kind of power required to form a government at pleasure, and to keep that government within bounds established by the sovereign.
That tradition leaves no room at all to suggest tolerance for disloyalty to the sovereign from people claiming to act under color of government's authority. Government has no authority over the sovereign. Government grants no rights. The sovereign recognizes only such claims to rights as it has authorized itself.
Elections are a sovereign power which belongs to the People jointly. The result of a completed election, certified and announced to the citizens, is a sovereign decree. An election loser who flaunts that decree, while attempting to organize resistance to it outside government, and within government, is not just speaking, let alone speaking as a matter of right. He has begun rebellion, to contest with the People for their own sovereign power. The People's Constitution guaranteed no such right, and bestows no such power. To suggest otherwise is to suppose a paradox—that the Constitution embodies its own negation.
The problem with Popper's paradox of tolerance is that it rests on the idea of force by one side but not the other when those speakers are in power.
But the speech itself is not the threat to democracy.
Personally, I've always found the paradox not to be in the idea the tolerance can lead to intolerance, but rather in using this idea as the justification for censorship: You have the moral right - even duty! - suppress the speech of people that disagree with you, because they might suppress speech they disagree with when they gain power.
Yea speech that is intolerant is also free. Popular today among the woke is predicating every evil with some form of "white" or "whiteness".
It's very intolerant and if the adjective was changed to black good chance it would be censored.
But Neo-Nazi speech, actual Nazi speech is very rare, and the very prominent BLM whitey is bad speech are both examples of free speech
And could only have a word because of free speech. Even in defending censorship, you implicitly acknowledge the importance of its opposite.
""In recent years, there has been widespread concern that democracy is threatened by the spread of misinformation and "fake news" on social media and other similar new technologies.""
It's perfectly sensible once you understand that what they mean by "democracy" is "our guys winning elections". Not the voters getting the government THEY want.
If the voters get the government they want, but it's not the right government, that's not "democracy" in their eyes.
Look, Brett once again makes up what other people think. It must be a weekday or weekend.
It's easy enough to understand:
1) Basically only Democrats talk about this threat.
2) They never notice 'disinformation' coming from their own side.
They're not worried about democracy as normally defined, they're just worrying that not having control of the narrative threatens their electoral prospects.
I'd read the symposium Ilya participated in before he posted this. Election Law Blog invited nobody to participate who wasn't guaranteed to find this to be an exclusively right-wing problem. Hasen brags that, "The impressive and diverse set of participants in this Balkinization symposium on Cheap Speech—Guy Charles, Julie Cohen, Yasmin Dawood, Mary Anne Franks, Dan Tokaji, and Eugene Volokh—do not really disagree with either my diagnosis of the problems or with most of my proposed solutions."
But that was hardly an accident, it was a product of only inviting people he was sure would agree with him. That's how Hasen rolls these days, unfortunately. He's one of those guys Trump being elected broke. (Or maybe it just exposed the cracks?) He's got no time for dissent from his views anymore.
1)Basically only Democrats talk about this threat.
2) They never notice 'disinformation' coming from their own side.
That doesn't prove it's not a real threat. I could say the same thing about CRT, or gun control, or a bunch of partisan issues.
I'd read the symposium Ilya participated in before he posted this. Election Law Blog invited nobody to participate who wasn't guaranteed to find this to be an exclusively right-wing problem.
But that was hardly an accident, it was a product of only inviting people he was sure would agree with him.
Making shit up again about people's motives.
Both sites, Election Law Blog and Balkinization, only permit participation by people guaranteed to hew to the party line, Sarcastro. That's always been the case at ELB, for Balkinization it's a moderately recent development that was accompanied by closing the comments, too.
I sometimes correspond with posters at both sites, and they do cover the range from reasonable left-wingers who are willing to entertain alternative viewpoints, to the extremists who won't, but both are run by the extremists.
You're working backwards - if they agree, the they must have been guaranteed to agree a priori.
I don't know all of those names, but a number of them are known for expertise, not partisanship.
I mean, don't do EV like that. Or Tokaji. Or Julie Cohen.
You really do injustice to the word extremist. Our of curiosity, are there any legal folks who disagrees with you that you wouldn't consider extremists?
Yeah, Sarcastro: In a 50-50 country, if you assemble a panel and everybody agrees that just one party is the problem, you've likely stacked the panel.
If you're the author of a book, and YOU assemble a panel to discuss it, and everybody agrees with you, you absolutely stacked the panel.
"You really do injustice to the word extremist. Our of curiosity, are there any legal folks who disagrees with you that you wouldn't consider extremists?"
It's like you respond to these comments without even reading them. "I sometimes correspond with posters at both sites, and they do cover the range from reasonable left-wingers who are willing to entertain alternative viewpoints, to the extremists who won't, but both are run by the extremists."
I don't think they're all extremists, I just think the extremists ended up in charge of the sites, and shut down dissent. Something I've seen over and over. At Crooked Timber, Samefacts, Balkinization, ELB.
Just looking at the blogroll at ELB, I've found Derek Muller and Richard Pildes to be perfectly reasonable guys with whom I just ideologically disagree. But it's not like they've got closed minds. Over at Balkinization, Gerard Magliocca or Mark Tushnet are fairly reasonable leftists.
OTOH, Hasen went off the deep end after the 2016 election, with Jack Balkin racing him to the bottom.
You don't have to make up what they think. They think opposing views should be censored and that those who continue to protest should be prosecuted.
Our justice system is supposed to be a blind folded lady holding a scale. Hahahahahaha
Look at J6 protestors versus BLM protestors. Were any BLM protestors posted on the FBI twitter page, hunted down and jailed for over a year without bail for trespassing?
Look at Kyle Rittenhouse versus the Waukesha driver vs the NYC subway shooter versus Michael Byrd.
Which group caused more death and damage over the last two years. BLM or Proud Boys? Which organizations are infiltrated with hordes of feds, see Whitmer Fed-napping to manufacture crimes?
They mean the the Democratic party. Just like the Soviet and Chinese systems are setup to maintain the Communist party.
So "our guys " has an official name. Note that opposing views to the "Party" are dealt with extra special justice. See J6. See the Whitmer Fed-napping.
Free speech can absolutely be a threat to democracy. It would be weird if it couldn't be. The whole reason governments have an urge to censor is because speech can be threatening to them.
That doesn't imply that the solution is to censor. The solution is to figure out where the speech is coming from and why.
In this case, why does the right wing think elections are only legitimate when the Democrat loses? There are lots of reasons. Democrats should address them. Instead they tried to take advantage of a (mid)perceived weakness of the Republicans to push a nonsensical, divisive culture-war-bssed agenda. Big mistake and it's backfiring.
"Free speech can absolutely be a threat to democracy. It would be weird if it couldn't be. The whole reason governments have an urge to censor is because speech can be threatening to them."
"Them" ≠ "democracy".
Granted, free speech that persuaded a population to abandon democracy could be a threat to democracy. But it's questionable if you can continue to call a government democratic if the demos want rid of it, and aren't permitted to talk about that.
"In this case, why does the right wing think elections are only legitimate when the Democrat loses? "
Start with a false premise, and you're doomed from the start. The right does NOT think elections are only legitimate when the Democrat loses, you only get the claims of illegitimacy in a tiny minority of elections. Almost all elections where Democrats won in 2020 were unchallenged.
Why were there claims of illegitimacy in the 2020 Presidential election? Not just because Trump is a bad loser. (Though that's a factor.) Because there were a lot of problematic things going on during that election: Ad hoc changes to rules on the fly, some of which were illegal. Elections observers being obstructed. Political spending laundered through donations to local elections authorities. (The "Zuck bucks") Transparency unnecessarily compromised. Social media, media in general, abandoning even the pretense of not taking sides.
Indeed, before election day the Democrats, too, were stoking fears of a stolen election, only to change their tune almost instantly after Biden won.
I don't think Republicans have a general refusal to admit they've lost elections. But Democrats made it really easy for them to find excuses to refuse, in 2020.
"Granted, free speech that persuaded a population to abandon democracy could be a threat to democracy. But it's questionable if you can continue to call a government democratic if the demos want rid of it"
The problem is, democracy can be undermined and toppled by a small minority. Probably no more than 10% of the population would be enough to terrorize the other 90%, if that 10% we're sufficiently committed to the cause.
You're right it's not the entire Republican party, but there's a pretty big and growing fringe that's armed, willing to do violence, and seems to think that democracy isn't worth it if it means a country run by Democrats.
Probably takes a lot less than 10% if you're stupid enough to install a "kill switch" on freedom of speech. I've watched over the years as we've created one piece of a police state after another, apparently in the fatuous belief that you can leave things like that lying around, and nobody is ever going to assemble that sucker and fire it up.
"You're right it's not the entire Republican party, but there's a pretty big and growing fringe that's armed, willing to do violence, and seems to think that democracy isn't worth it if it means a country run by Democrats."
That's stupidly funny if you reflect on the last few years of riots, areas of cities being taken over, arson attacks on occupied buildings...
Like one party has a monopoly on evil in this country. Sorry, the Stupid party is also evil, and the Evil party is also stupid.
Brett ButWhatAbout Bellmore... I didn't say monopoly on evil. I said undermining democracy. I'm not aware of anyone on the left trying to undermine democracy. Protests are common in democracies, and sometimes they're violent. It's shameful, but not a threat to democracy.
The comical "fact checkers " that Facebook and Twitter use is a good example.
They struggle to find a strand of falsehood in a statement they wish to censor. They struggle to find a strand of truth in something they wish to not censor. Its not fact checking its making up an excuse to censor by view point.
Wow, that just came straight from your ass to my eyes. I feel a little violated.
No that's your ass. Your head is in it
You are the king of ipse dixit.
One the main techniques they use is basically the good ole strawman.
They take a story or subject, and find some slightly misconceived or exaggerated version of it -- from a random anonymous twitter post or something, if it doesn't exist they could just make it -- and then they debunk that.
Who are you talking about? The "fact checkers" at Twitter and Facebook?
Yes. E.g. places like Snopes and PolitiFact.
What do Snopes and PolitiFact have to do with (alleged) Twitter and Facebook censorship? Snopes and PolitiFact have no editorial power. They're just adding their own opinions to the mix. If you have a problem with that, you're the anti-free-speech one here.
Or is this just more conspiracy theorizing? Snopes and Facebook are secretly meeting with Hilary Clinton in the basement of a pizza place to gorge on pizza with baby sauce and decide on censorship strategies!
They are third party fact checkers relied on by Facebook.
How Facebook’s third-party fact-checking program works
https://www.facebook.com/journalismproject/programs/third-party-fact-checking/how-it-works
Hm ok that is pretty gross.
Wow. Only 63% of the people surveyed thought the fact checking was fair, and they consider that confirmation that they're doing it right?
Looking closer, it looks like this program applies to content labeling, but they won't remove content based on fact checking.
I have no problem with labeling. That, again, is just more speech.
They won't remove, but they will "reduce distribution" or prevent anyone else from seeing it in their feeds.
Probably true although the demand for CNN, MSNBC and the rest keeps tanking but it doesn't seem to phase them, they push right on with the agenda.
Many states have passed or are considering a SALT cap "workaround" for pass-through entities, and the IRS has apparently blessed it.
I haven't read the IRS guidance yet but I've been thinking it seems odd to me. The state basically declares that pass-through entities are no longer pass-through in the sense that the SALT taxes are paid at the entity level and therefore are a deductible business expense, as with C corporations. But I don't understand how state law is relevant in any way to the tax treatment of pass-through entities at the federal level. Is this just a case of the IRS saying, yeah that seems like a good policy outcome so we'll go with it?
Oops, wrong thread.