The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Case for Pursuing the Issue of Russian War Crimes in Ukraine - Even Though Putin is Highly Unlikely to Ever be Tried and Punished
Putin and other Russian leaders are likely guilty of massive war crimes. And there is real, though limited, value to pursuing the issue.

President Biden is among the many Western leaders who have denounced Vladimir Putin as a war criminal because of the atrocities Russian forces have committed in their war of aggression against Ukraine. There is good reason for that condemnation. Putin and other Russian leaders are clearly guilty of horrific war crimes, on a massive scale. But it is also true that it's likely to be difficult or impossible to prosecute them, barring a regime change in Russia. War crimes proceedings might still have some real, but limited value, however.
Proof of war crimes is overwhelming. In addition to the murder of civilians, mass deportations, and rampant pillaging committed by Russian troops, there is the fundamental fact that Putin's decision to launch the war in the first place was a crime of enormous proportions. I summarized the reasons why on the day before the invasion began:
The law is simple. There are few, if any, more fundamental violations of international law than seizing other nations' territory by force for the purpose of annexing it or ruling through a puppet regime. The United Nations Charter specifically forbids "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State." That description fits Russia's assault on Ukraine to a T.
The charge of waging wars of aggression was also one of the main accusations brought against the Nazi defendants in the Nuremberg trials; the Nuremberg tribunal ruled that starting a war of aggression is "the supreme international crime." Putin's rationales for seizing Crimea in 2014 and later the Donbass region of Eastern Ukraine are very similar to those Hitler offered for his attacks on Poland and Czechoslovakia: the supposed need to protect co-ethnic populations facing largely trumped-up threats (ethnic German minorities in Poland and the Sudetenland in Hitler's case; Russian-speaking populations in Ukraine in Putin's case)…
If Putin now tries to take more of Ukraine, it will just be an expansion of his government's already grossly illegal aggression. The best historical analogy would be Hitler's shift from taking the Sudetenland (the part of Czechoslovakia with a large German population) in 1938 to occupying all of Czechoslovakia in 1939.
Later in the same post, I also explained why Russia's aggression cannot be defended on moral grounds that could potentially justify engaging in illegal action.
Several Nuremberg defendants got the death penalty at least in part because of their role in planning and executing wars of aggression. Putin and his high-level collaborators are guilty of the same type of crime. I do not claim that Putin and his minions are as bad as the Nazis overall. So far, at least, they have not committed genocide and mass murder on anything like the same scale. But they are comparable when it comes to the crime of initiating a war of aggression, one that has no remotely plausible legal or moral justification.
If you reject the death penalty on principle, you at least have good reason for concluding that Putin and other high-ranking Russian officials responsible for the war deserve whatever you think is the most severe permissible punishment. Perhaps life imprisonment without parole, for example.
Some of the atrocities committed by Russian forces in Ukraine may be the rogue actions of ill-disciplined units acting on their own. But others - especially the mass executions and deportations of civilians - are systematic enough that they are likely the result of orders from on high, probably all the way from the Kremlin. Forcible displacement of civilians - the most clearly centralized Russian atrocity - is a war crime under a range of different international laws.
Even when it comes to crimes committed by soldiers acting on their own, high-level commanders may be responsible if they failed to take proper action to curb them. As the US Supreme Court ruled in the 1946 case of In re Yamashita (reviewing the trial of a Japanese World War II general whose men had committed horrific atrocities against Filipino civilians), a military commander has "a duty to take such appropriate measures as are within his power to control the troops under his command for the prevention of the specified acts which are violations of the law of war and which are likely to attend the occupation of hostile territory by an uncontrolled soldiery." If a commander fails to take such appropriate measures,"he may be charged with personal responsibility for his failure to take such measures when violations result."
The court cited various provisions of the Hague Conventions and the Geneva Convention as justification for its ruling. Russia, of course, is a signatory to these agreements. It seems pretty obvious that Putin and other Russian commanders have done little, if anything, to prevent atrocities by their forces. They are therefore likely guilty on the same basis as General Yamashita was convicted.
Admittedly, not everyone agrees that the conviction of Yamashita was just. Supreme Court Justice Robert Murphy wrote a forceful dissent arguing that he was denied proper due process. Some also argue that Yamashita was not really in a position to prevent the atrocities his troops committed. But few doubt the basic principle that high-level commanders have at least some duty to prevent war crimes by their men.
Despite the strong - and growing - evidence against Putin and other Russian leaders, the odds against trying and convicting them for war crimes are long. So long as Putin and his minions remain in power, any such trial and punishment will be virtually impossible. For obvious reasons, Putin will never agree to such a thing.
But there is still value to pursuing the war crimes issue, including by investigating offenses and laying the groundwork for potential indictments and trials. First, there is some chance, even if small, that Putin will lose power if the war goes badly enough for him. History - including Russian history - has plenty of examples of despots who lost their grip on power after defeat in war.
Second, even if it turns out to be impossible to try and punish Putin, the same may not be true of other Russian officials and military personnel. Ukraine has taken many Russian prisoners, and some of them may be perpetrators of war crimes. Other Russian officials and military officers could potentially be arrested and detained if they travel beyond Russia's borders in the future. For that very reason, they might choose to avoid such travel. But that denial itself functions as a modest (though far from properly proportional) form of retribution.
Finally, emphasis on the war crimes issue can help maintain opposition to Putin's war in the West, and continue to mobilize international opinion against it. The criminal nature of the enterprise is one of the reasons (though certainly not the only reason) why the war has drawn so much international opposition, and turned Russia into a near-pariah state.
None of these admittedly modest gains will be anywhere near as satisfying as a Nuremberg-style tribunal in which Putin and other high-ranking Russian officials get tried, convicted, and punished. Sadly, such proceedings are usually only possible if the regime in question is overthrown. But we should not let the best be the enemy of the good - even the modestly good.
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Great. If and when that happens, have at it. Until then, it's hard to imagine how preplanning a war crimes tribunal doesn't just make the guy with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world feel even more desperate.
Protecting Putin's feelings is not really at the top of my list at the moment.
Those who take smug pleasure in taunting a raging bulldog while standing just past the limit of its chain can be in for a rather... unpleasant surprise when the chain snaps.
"Feelings" has nothing to do with it.
For once I agree with you. Let's not make things more dangerous than they are.
We come out the same way = Let's not make things more dangerous than they are.
Perhaps for different reasons, but we land in the same place. 🙂
"Let's not make things more dangerous than they are."
Neville Chamberlain, 1938.
But what is happening today isn't all that similar to selling Czechoslovakia out at Munich, is it? The world wasn't falling over itself to send arms and other aid in 1938.
To the folks who push the, "appeasement," cliche, you have no idea what would have happened had Britain and France gone to war over Czechoslovakia. Nobody does.
Try at least to notice that you award yourself an easy victory which only a small minority at that time supposed was politically or militarily attainable at any price. That is presumption at its most presumptuous.
Against that shaky presumption stand stark facts of history—of long and bloody conflict, and mass murder—but also of unequivocal triumph, and unprecedented moral vindication for the victors. That last bit would not likely have ensued had Britain and France been perceived world-wide as aggressors who set off a different version of WW II, with whatever consequences came then.
Absent that moral vindication, almost certainly today we would struggle to overturn some different counter-factual cliche. Perhaps it would blame capitalist aggression for whatever ills the war created, or failed to solve. We can not even know those ills would not have been greater than the ones experienced.
Historical counter-factuals are pointless. They presume imaginary facts which history already overturned, bypassed or mooted. They paradoxically mix real historical consequences we live today with imaginary changes which instead would have altered today's consequences. For instance, the appeasement myth leaves proponents free to enjoy both moral vindication won by gargantuan struggle against evil, and a history from which that struggle was precluded, or decided otherwise—maybe even decided against the ambitions of today's moral victors.
Nothing attempted by human imagination is as empty, futile and frivolous as a historical counter-factual. Even detailed presumptions about a future years hence, however vacuous, enjoy an advantage compared to a historical counter-factual. At least for an imaginary future, we do not know already that none of it can happen.
" That last bit would not likely have ensued had Britain and France been perceived world-wide as aggressors who set off a different version of WW II, with whatever consequences came then."
The Soviets didn't seem to face that phenomenon even though Poland was the fifth nation they had invaded in the time frame.
Giving a madman a free pass to do anything he pleases so long as he waves a few nukes around like a dirty old man in the park exposing himself does not set a palatable precedent for the future.
The message at this point should be: Stop at this point and go home and you'll live. Continue down this path and that cannot be guaranteed. There will be no place on the planet where you will be safe from being hunted down like a rabid dog.
The only way to deal with unhinged crazy is to out crazy them. Lets find out how many Russian cities he's willing to trade for Ukraine. Never forget that he must be reminded that no matter what he lobs at the rest of the world there is still a whole fleet of SSBN's out there somewhere that will cause his empire to cease to exist in short order.
Of course, at this point we're not in "anything he pleases" territory at all, and certainly not anything we have a direct interest in.
So you're voting to declare war. Who are you volunteering to conduct it on your behalf?
No I am voting to out threaten him.
It seem to me that everyone today has forgotten the art of Brinksmanship. Did anyone during the Cuban Missile Crisis say we can't threaten Khrushchev, he has nukes? No. We made it quite clear we were going to do whatever is necessary to remove those weapons from Cuba. The missiles in Turkey were getting ready to be fired at Moscow.
Putin has threatened a nuclear First Strike. That cannot go unchallenged. The last thing we should be doing at this point is hem hawing around with "How can we help Ukraine without making Putin too mad?" At this point we should be moving out short and medium range deterrent into Eastern Europe. We should have never cancelled the last two ICBM tests. It might even be time to resume underground testing.
If he wants to play hardball the least we can do is oblige him and make the consequences real for him. Right now all over Russian media all of their foreign policy "Experts" are talking about how they'll be able to hurl nukes around Eastern Europe and NATO, the US in particular are too afraid to respond. They are in fact urging they actually do so, not just threaten. We are doing nothing to dispel that.
MAD only works when both sides show serious resolve that they are willing to use their arsenal in kind. Sometimes to come back from the brink you have to step right up to it.
You're just reinforcing my point. The CMC was a direct act of aggression toward the US. The Ukrainian situation has diddly-squat to do with us.
And by stepping right up to the brink, you must be prepared to cross over if the other side doesn't blink as you're banking on.
So again: Who are you cavalierly volunteering to step over the brink on your behalf? This seems like the flesh-and-blood version of OPM.
Our daughter, the mother of our grandchildren has been recalled to active duty 11 days ago. We fully support her being where she is, and if something were to happen we'd still think she did the right thing. If I were 20 and healthy, instead of being a mid 50's, Type 1 Diabetic who is legally blind without correction I'd be looking for some way to assist myself.
We are painfully aware that the early birthday party we attended for our grandson the day before she left may be the last time we see her, so yes, our family has put their money where their mouth is.
Fear of personal loss or consequences is no excuse to not do the correct and moral thing.
I deeply appreciate your daughter's service, and understand your position.
But bad leaders routinely commit atrocities against large swaths of people. Why suddenly find moral outrage sufficient to declare war over this particular situation? Is Rooosha just different?
I think what has captured the outrage of so many of us is that:
A: This is Europe, a place most of us thought had got beyond wars of conquest.
B: This is happening way too close to NATO and allied forces, particularly near nations that not al that long ago were Soviet (really Russian) puppet dictatorships.
C: Vladimir Putin's own writings and rhetoric indicates Ukraine is only the beginning of his territorial aims and the more he takes the more emboldened he will become.
Bottom line is the walls are closing in on freedom. Do I think we live in a perfect nation? Far from it. Let me say I think we are the least worst and given the opportunity I'd gladly tar and feather 3/4 of Washington. I'm hoping the world lasts long enough for me to witness that, really.
I majored in Soviet and Eastern Studies, not that I used it in my professional career. I was married to a Soviet Russian refugee for 19 years, and was pretty deeply integrated into the expat community. I think I have a bit more insight into the Russian mindset and culture than most.
The Cold War during my lifetime of the 70's and 80's never really concerned me. Unlike many I never really thought the Commies were just waiting for the opportunity to flood through the Fulda Gap and make us all vassals of the Reds.
The change I have witnessed over the past 20 or so years, though frightens me. Russia is being led by a madman for whom only strength and force are going to stop him from his aims, which is to control all territory that was formerly under Russian control. Finland, The Baltics, much of Poland, Slovakia, Moldova and parts of Romania, and other places are all land Putin has set his eyes on.
I think a strong, forceful deterrence now will prevent a larger conflict later. We are the world's leading superpower. We don't have the luxury of sitting back and saying "Other side of the world, not our problem", and yes, brutal and callous as it sounds, some intertribal war in Africa, or battle in the Asian subcontinent really does not affect our security and stability the way this conflict does. The Middle East even pales in comparison, although not as much because as we are now seeing an interruption in the free flow of global energy supplies at undistorted market rates can have global consequences.
If we decide that we will wait until the missiles are on their way from newly conquered Central Europe, or there are troops landing on the East and West coast, and falling out of the sky, then it is far too late already.
Being too risk averse is going to lead to our destruction.
Currentsitguy — the result you apparently want—defeat for Putin and regime change—is unavailable except by imposing unconditional surrender. Assuming everything you say is true, what do you think will happen if the U.S. changes its policy to a demand for unconditional surrender by Russia?
From time-to-time, questions comes up for which no one should want clear answers.
Your knowledge of the Cuban Missile Crisis is faulty.
Kennedy gave Khrushchev a face saving way out — a promise to stop trying to overthrow Castro. “Never give him a choice between pushing the button, and humiliation.” Which is ultimately the kind of deal Biden will make with Putin.
I think the Ukrainians ought to get a vote on how many Ukrainian cities get destroyed, rather than have us or Russia deciding that.
Once Saddam was drive out of Kuwait, Bush One stopped the war. I think that was a smart move. If Putin is expelled from Ukraine, we can make Ukraine safe with some combination of arms and alliances. At that point Putin is Russia's problem. I'd like to see justice for Putin, but not enough to have a nuclear war over.
Nor has protecting his feelings done the world a lot of wonders up to this point anyhow.
:rolleyes:
Putin would only be aware that his freedom is in jeopardy if a tribunal is announced? He isn't already aware that the West would detain him and hold him accountable given the chance?
Another brilliant hot take from LoB.
Askshully, o wisest one you know, it's not quite as simple as all that when the folks you'd otherwise love to string up for human rights offenses control significant amounts of critical global resources -- or has nukes. Then the order of the day tends to be long-game diplomacy, occasionally peppered with "this stuff is BAD.... m'kay?" language that both sides know will ultimately go nowhere. See, e.g., China, N. Korea, Iran, Venezuela, etc. etc.
That's why it's a Big Fucking Deal when President Loose-Lips-Sink-Ships casually throws around terms like "war criminal." And after doubling down following a clumsy walk-back attempt by the administration, he certainly doesn't need any further encouragement from the academic peanut gallery.
All those words and yet you didn't refute my argument at all.
Typical.
Arguments don't end in question marks, I hate to tell you. And I quite directly addressed your supposed rhetorical questions.
You are wrong to claim an argument cannot end in a question mark. While you somewhat addressed what I had to say, that is not the same as refuting it.
You are also wrong in thinking that announcing a war crime tribunal would change anything for Putin.
Either he knows that he's already going to be detained should the opportunity present itself in a Western nation, in which case the announcement changes nothing, or he knows that he won't ever be apprehended regardless, and the announcement changes nothing.
Now go tell Professor Planters why you were late for class.
If the argument is that preventing him from traveling outside of Russia might make him use nukes, then you'd think nuking the places he might otherwise want to travel to would motivate him not to blow up the world.
Nukes are a doomsday button. You only push that button if you, personally, have nothing to lose. Putin has children and one presumes he has some hope to leave them a better world rather than a smoldering cinder.
Enough with rent seeking lawyer fantasies. The above is a massive lawyer employment proposal. It is ridiculous, and unreal. Garbage. Stop lawyer protection, privileging, and empowerment of pure evil because the lawyer is pure evil.
Time to finally change all war doctrine. Leaders and their employers, the oiligarchs should be the first targets. Second, the military leadership should be decapitated. See what happens to their wars. Most soldiers are peasants and working people who just want to go home. If ours become targeted by the enemy in return, send the enemy gifts for ridding us of these pestilential vermin.
At Nuremberg, high Nazi officials, military, political, and judicial were hanged. Hitler was put in power by 20 families. He shared all their beliefs, down to reliance on astrology. None of these scumbags paid any cost. They sent Germany back into the Stone Age for 10 years.
Instead of being hunted and shot on the spot, the scumbag Ally lawyer recruited them to rebuild the German economy. They got far richer from the Ally victory, than from the plunder and contracts that followed the election of Hitler, their boy.
This is maddening. You lawyers must be stopped.
Some of these families were American. Those should have been hanged. Nothing happened to them either.
https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-american-companies-that-aided-the-nazis.php
"So long as Putin and his minions remain in power, any such trial and punishment will be virtually impossible. "
(1) Is a trial in absentia a possibility?
(2) If Putin or other high-ranking Kremlin officials were tried and convicted, they would never be able to set foot in large parts of the world.
That said, I agreed with Life of Brian that this is a bad idea. We need to find some way for Putin to retreat and save face. Not a satisfying result, but one that would result in a net savings of lives.
But giving him a way to back down would interfere with getting an excuse for that regime change that Biden totally wasn't calling for in his speech.
Careful, the people that comment here want as much death and destruction as possible because Hitler or something. So they believe the Obama administration were “appeasers” for not sending lethal aid because they didn’t want to escalate the war…diplomacy would never have worked because of this escalation.
I'm sorry but at this point I will not accept anything short of seeing him swing.
Not that I'd openly broadcast that, but eliminating him at this point should be the world's top priority.
There is an old expression in Yiddish: a tzaddik oif yenem's cheshbon”. It means, literally, someone who is righteous on the other guy's account.
The fact that YOU will "not accept anything short of seeing him swing" is a bit rich, considering that you will suffer little from prolonging the war. There are lots of people in the Ukraine who would be happy if the war ended, even if Putin remains in power.
For the same reason, it was a good thing that France took in Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier when he fled Haiti. The guy deserved a painful death. Insisting on it would have caused great suffering. So he got a permanent vacation on the Riviera.
To this day I think it was wrong that they took him in. There needs to be accountability for heinous acts.
It's like saying Churchill was wrong after the invasion of Poland because letting Hitler have Poland would have saved everyone who died in the Blitz.
You are taking the wrong lesson from Churchill. Churchill understood what others did not, that if you appease Hitler by giving him one country, he will simply come back for another.
If Putin withdraws, he gets no country. In fact, in reality, that will be a humiliation for him. Not to mention the concerted sanctions by a large part of the world. Russia has clearly paid a price for Putin's adventure, and they all know it.
Making big pronouncements that do nothing but push Putin to fight to the bitter end is grossly irresponsible.
The thing that you have to remember is that the Russian people above all, respect and need the proverbial Strong Leader. Time and again in recent years you hear a false nostalgic longing for the days of Stalin, and a glorification of people like Ivan the Terrible. More and more you hear the nostalgic longing for the good old days of the USSR. Humiliate him enough and we won't have to worry, the Russians themselves will take care of him.
"There are lots of people in the Ukraine who would be happy if the war ended, even if Putin remains in power."
Source? Other than say, Russian state media outlets?
I can get behind "some few" but "lots," while vague, implies a significant number more than "some few."
a tzaddik oif yenem's cheshbon”
Great phrase. Thanks for reminding me of that.
"We need to find some way for Putin to retreat and save face. Not a satisfying result, but one that would result in a net savings of lives."
He didn't lose any face when he invaded Georia, invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea, leveled Chechnya, and destroyed Syria. You think that resulted in a net savings of lives?
Except for the Ukraine, he faced little backlash from those events. So he kept going. Perhaps if Obama had pushed back then, we would not have Ukraine now.
Perhaps if Clinton, Bush, Obama, or Trump had "pushed back?"
Besides Obama's economic sanctions as part of the Magnitsky Act, you mean? Besides Obama sending arms to Syrians fighting against Asad? Biden's successive sanctions during 2021?
Some of these issues with Russia happened under GW Bush and Trump as well. Shouldn't they have pushed back too? (Actually the only one that literally--and still does--praised Putin grumbled about signing sanctions against Russia but was politically backed into a corner because there was widespread belief he was crushing on his Russian counterpart at the expense of his own country.)
However Putin, his inner circle and the rest of Russia's miliary, and entire population should be allowed to freely immigrate to the US.
Oh, for pity's sake.
None of the Russians taken prisoner by Ukraine are going to be tried on war crimes charges, because it is blindingly obvious that the Russians would simply retaliate against Ukrainians that they have taken prisoner. They're all getting exchanged at the end of the war.
The Russians will simply put on their own show trials and claim that it was the Ukrainians committing the crimes. Proceeding like these have no credibility unless you have the ability to carry out the sentence.
“ None of these admittedly modest gains will be anywhere near as satisfying as a Nuremberg-style tribunal in which Putin and other high-ranking Russian officials get tried, convicted, and punished.”
Yeah, let’s do that instead.
As much as I don't like Putin Im not really seeing him doing anything much different from countless past and many present leaders.
Same here. It's not much of a stretch to argue for war crimes by the last few US Presidents, even if not on a scale like Putin recently.
Is that somehow news to you?
I think that's the point. Should we not be also holding ourselves to that standard?
Lock the lot of them up. Some justice for once would be nice.
“Meh, it’s only war crimes. Everybody does it” is PoS thinking from a PoS.
Precisely.
I am going to be blunt here. If the West wants to show that it takes these matters seriously, there is at this time one and only one thing it can do. It needs to support Ukraine more fully.
Going through ritual show formalities of indicting Putin for war crimes while giving Ukraine tepid support out of fear of upsetting Putin if we give more would only reinforce the idea, indeed it would demonstrate and establish the idea, that to us in the West this whole war crimes and rule of law rhetoric is essentialkt a child’s game, like playing with dolls, not to be taken seriously by grownups who live in the grownup world. It reflects infantilism, a lack of maturity, on our part.
It would be like conducting voodoo rituals on Putin. Indeed I want to stress the similarity. To a Putin, rule of law incantation rutuals are nothing but an essentially magical appeal to spirits as impotent as voodoo spirits. If we foolishly engage in such rituals while tip-toeing in fear of Putin in our practical approach to this war, we only reinforce their hollowness.
Now is the time to frankly acknowledge that in matters of war, international law is set by the winners. If Russia wins, it is its norms of international law that will be applied to this conflict, not ours.
So If and when Ukraine wins, that would the time to talk about war crimes trials. Until then, we can expect Putin to respond by indicting Zelensky and perhaps Western leaders as well. After all, Putin has made clear that his position is that every Ukrainian civilian death is directly and solely caused by Zelensky’s Co’s failure to follow international law and capitulate as international law, as Russia sees it, required. We can expect Zelensky to have a lot more blood and guilt on his hands before this war is over. And if Russia somehow breaks Ukraine and wins big, we can expect big show war crimes trials of Ukrainian officials.
If the West wants to show that it takes these matters seriously, there is at this time one and only one thing it can do. It needs to support Ukraine more fully.
Going through ritual show formalities of indicting Putin for war crimes while giving Ukraine tepid support out of fear of upsetting Putin if we give more would only reinforce the idea, indeed it would demonstrate and establish the idea, that to us in the West this whole war crimes and rule of law rhetoric is essentialkt a child’s game,
Agree completely. Let's help Ukraine push the Russians back to Moscow. Give them whatever they need. After that, we can issue indictments.
I'm not saying we shouldn't point out that Putin is, in plain fact, a war criminal, just that addressing that now shouldn't be a high priority.
I think the best thing for grownups to do, at least grownups with fully-developed, large penises, is to lob a few nukes at the Russians, to prove how grown-up and manly they are.
War crimes are for those who lose a war.
Don't get cocky.
Yes!!
"The best historical analogy would be Hitler's" etc.
Naturally.
And it is. And the next step was further military expansion
Which also applies, given "the worst thing evah" was the collapse of the Soviet Union.
And there are bigger issues at stake, namely China. If the world reacted strongly about Ukraine, including suffering economic harm due to cutting off Russia in spite of dependencies and supporting with equipment, well...
Identify all the wealth he and members of his family have abroad and seize it. End of story. Then do the same for all those in the Russian government who have wealth abroad.
If you cannot try them you can force them to live out their lives at home.
I came here to ask that. A trial in absentia would be symbolic only, but symbols matter as does getting facts on the historical record.
As a small correction, you have misidentified Justice Frank Murphy as "Robert Murphy".
War crimes are only decided by the victor....not going to be a bother for Putin. War is war....Scalia even said that. Ridiculous lawyer argument by ridiculous lawyer.
"even"? Scalia seems like the obvious person to say that.
And, for the record, Sudan won the Darfur conflict by any definition, and that didn't prevent the President of Sudan from being put on trial in The Hague.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/cases?f%5B0%5D=situation_name_colloquial_cases%3A677
You think Putin will surrender himself to the Hague?
“The first casualty of war is truth”
I do not know who first said that but it is as true now as ever. This conflict has had more than its share of intended and unintended misinformation coming from both sides. Talk of “war crimes” is rather cheap coming from a country which a few months ago killed a bunch of kids in a Kabul neighborhood and failed to hold anyone accountable for their deaths. From a country which maintained troops illegally in another country without that country’s permission. I refer to Syria which never granted the US permission to have troops in their country. But the US did it anyway
From bombing an aspirin factory under the pretense of it being a chemical weapons plant to invading a country under the premise of eradicating its WMDs and the continued assistance to one side in the Yemeni civil war which has killed far more than have died in Ukraine to topping the government of Libya without any legitimate reason. The US has done it all.
To make matters worse, as further evidence comes to light of alleged “war crimes” questions about the veracity of the claims start to rise.
And if a preemptive attack on another nation is indeed a war crime, then George Bush and all the military involved should have been tried for preemptively attacking Iraq.
As for international war crimes, Justice Radhabinod Pal’s dissent in the Japanese War Crimes Trials best encapsulates my opinion.
Your whataboutism extends so far up your ass that you can't be bothered to condemn Russia's behavior, and instead rattle off a lengthy diatribe against America while questioning whether Russia's even done anything which amounts to a war crime with complete disregard to the plain evidence that they have.
Get the fuck out.
A knee jerk reaction like that shows you don't know how to rebut his claims, most likely because you can't. World leaders commit war crimes all the time, and US Presidents are among the worst simply because the US military is the most widespread. Doesn't have anything to do with none of the US war crimes being on Putin's level, except maybe the second Bush invasion of Iraq, which had just as poor an excuse and killed far more Iraqis than Russia has killed Ukrainians.
"A knee jerk reaction like that shows you don't know how to rebut his claims, most likely because you can't."
When he learns what a 'war crime' actually is or isn't, and his list of complaints appropriately reflects that, he might deserve more of my time.
Declaring war isn't a war crime. Bad intelligence isn't a war crime. Even civilian deaths don't automatically constitute war crimes.
"Your whataboutism extends so far up your ass..."
The law is based upon precedents. So "whataboutisms" are in fact precedents.
"...a lengthy diatribe against America..."
Commentary against militarism and illegal or wrongful acts by the US is not "anti-American" they are an expectation that we can do better. I wonder, is criticism of Lt. William Calley also anti-Americanism?
"...while [not] questioning whether Russia's even done anything which amounts to a war crime with complete disregard to the plain evidence that they have."
Q: Was the invasion of Ukraine wrong?
A: "Declaring war isn't a war crime"
You seem absolutely sure there are war crimes yet you even state, "[b]ad intelligence isn't a war crime. Even civilian deaths don't automatically constitute war crimes." And we know that most of the alleged incidents being labeled "war crimes" are being questioned for their veracity.
"When he learns what a 'war crime' actually is or isn't..."
Do you know who Kōki Hirota was? He was the Prime Minister of Japan from 1936-1937, less than a year. He was convicted of war crimes after the war and sentenced to death. The tribunal condemned Hirota's failure to insist that the Japanese Cabinet act to put an end to the Nanjing atrocities while he was Foreign Minister. In other words, the failure to act is also a war crime.
Now, I cannot tell you that the US has committed war crimes recently, but I think we can look at conflicts such as The Wounded Knee Incident as a clear example of a US war crime. Rather than anyone being punished, 20 Medals of Honor were given out and the Regimental Commander who was relieved in the immediate aftermath was soon reinstated and later promoted.
"And we know that most of the alleged incidents being labeled "war crimes" are being questioned for their veracity."
🙁
No, they are not. Fringe idiots and propagandists don't count.
I suddenly feel very, very sorry for you.
OK, smart guy, it's true that at Nuremberg, making aggressive war was split out from "war crimes" and charged separately as a "crime against peace," but it still counts as a war crime because it's a violation of the international law regarding armed conflict. (In other words, violations of ius ad bellum can be war crimes just as can violations of ius in bello.)
"....but it still counts as a war crime because it's a violation of the international law regarding armed conflict."
No it does not, and no it is not. A war of aggression is a violation of international criminal law. It is not a "war crime."
If you believe otherwise, feel free to cite your sources.
Is the Judgment of the International Military Tribunal (the Nuremburg Tribunal) good enough for you? As the IMT said: "To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."
And what authority did the Tribunal have?
Only the most ancient one, belong to the victors in every war: "the Strong do as they will, the Weak suffer what they must".
But Putin and Russia, while not quite the US's equal, are certainly not 'weak'. It only takes one nuclear weapon to render everything Russia has done in the past 30 years a trivial sidenote in death and destruction. And it doesn't need to be Russia acting directly! A simple 'mistake' losing a warhead that makes it into 'terrorist' hands would be easy enough - or substitute in any bio or chemical weapon you may have nightmares of instead of nuke, if that's your preference.
The Nazis were soundly defeated. Russia is not. This discussion of the abuse of the losers by the victors is not applicable until that changes.
No, not at all.
Wars of aggression are not against actual international law, as can be seen by a brief examination of actual state practice both before and after the Nuremburg Trials. Or by the simple fact that the co-aggressors against Poland, instead of being tried alongside the Nazis at Nuremburg, actually were co-convenors of the tribunal.
Under the best circumstances, the claim of wars of aggression being criminal is an aspirational standard. At worst, like at Nuremburg, the claim is a blatant and cynical lie.
His tangent makes no fucking sense. American presidents committed war crimes then. Does that make Russian war crimes not matter?
Fuck off with your equivalence bullshit. Time to stop covering for Russia there comrade.
First step- remove your head from your ass.
Second step- realize that two things can be wrong at once and two wrongs don't make a right.
Moron.
The collective West had already told so many lies that it can not prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Perhaps the other side has also told lies, it is impossible for me, as a Western person to know.
But perhaps the author wants the Judge to redefine reasonable doubt with a show trial. Like the West plans for Assange and Snowden.
Be that as maybe, the trial would be an exercise in futility.
Why don't we forget the nonsense and concentrate on survival? The deep state has no reverse gear, and nobody can find the brakes. We could all end up dead. And for what?
You seem to be confused about a small detail. Instead of "the collective West" you probably mean "the US". Nobody else is planning to do anything to Assange or Snowden, and nobody else in the West is guilty of war crimes at anywhere that scale.
You're correct, but that is a hard sell with this group.
Nobody including the U.S. is planning a "show trial" for Assange or Snowden.
But the censorship and the lies are for the common good don't you know. If you disagree you area Putin apologist.
This is the dopey world we live in
Be careful what you wish for....
Oh, so true! War crimes tribunals are popular at the moment but leave records which usually damn the accusers.
For example, at Nuremberg, multiple Nazi defendants cited Buck v. Bell and Holmes’s decision in their own defense. And prior to his execution, Karl Brandt stated "How can the nation which holds the lead in human experimentation in any conceivable form, how can that nation dare to accuse and punish other nations which only copied their experimental procedures? [...] It is, of course, not surprising that the nation which in the face of the history of humanity will forever have to bear the guilt for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that this nation attempts to hide itself behind moral superlatives. She does not bend the law: Justice has never been there!"
All wars are crimes [ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745724/ ] and many of the most prolific war criminals -- Truman, Johnson, Kennedy, and T. Roosevelt -- have been American. "Ideologies are known for their scientific character: they combine the scientific approach with results of philosophical relevance and pretend to be scientific philosophy."
Jacques J. Rozenberg, ed., Bioethical and Ethical Issues Surround the Trials and Code of Nuremberg: Nuremberg Revisited, Symposium Series, Vol. 74 (Lewiston, NY, USA: The Edwin Mellen Press, 2003)
James Q. Whitman, Hitler’s American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law (Princeton, NJ, USA: Princeton University Press, 2018)
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism (New York, NY, USA: Harcourt, 1976)
Henry Friedlander, The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution (Chapel Hill, NC, USA: The University of North Carolina Press, 1995)
A prelude to Martinned's comment:
Most people don't know the reason that neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was targeted previous to the attack with nuclear bombs.
American wanted "virgin targets" to assess the effects of the nuclear weapons.
US leaders should drop the self-righteous hypocrisy
"Most people don't know the reason that neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was targeted previous to the attack with nuclear bombs."
I have heard that before, and was prompted to do a little googling. Here is NPR's take. It seems a little more nuanced.
tl;dr:
-in late spring 1945, when the decision was being made, Hiroshima was on the priority list for conventional bombing; they just hadn't worked their way down to it yet.
Once it was picked as the A-bomb target, it would be a little odd to bomb it conventionally when there were other targets on the conventional bombing list that hadn't been bombed yet.
-they debated whether to just drop the A-bomb in a demonstration (e.g. in Tokyo Bay). The decision to use it on an actual target was in fact driven by a desire that the world realize what a terrible weapon this was, but the motivation wasn't completely 'see what a big stick we have'. Teller - no pacifist - wrote in a letter to Szilard:
"But I am not really convinced of your objections. I do not feel that there is any chance to outlaw any one weapon. If we have a slim chance of survival, it lies in the possibility to get rid of wars. The more decisive a weapon is the more surely it will be used in any real conflict and no agreements will help.
Our only hope is in getting the facts of our results before the people. This might help to convince everybody that the next war would be fatal. For this purpose actual combat use might even be the best thing."
From other Manhattan Project bios, that notion - that The Bomb was so horrible it would end war forever - was a common, if naive - belief among the scientists.
(the NPR article has links to the target committee minutes and Teller's letter)
@Don Nico: I'm actually not sure that that's relevant, at least under the laws of war as they stand today. The question is whether they intentionally targeted civilians without a sufficient military justification, and they clearly did.
How do you know they "clearly did" in these circumstances. Are you an investigator for the Hague and have uncovered smoking gun type evidence????
"The question is whether they intentionally targeted civilians without a sufficient military justification, and they clearly did"
From the NPR article above:
"Also, Hiroshima was a real military target. There were factories and other facilities there."
So I'm curious - would you also object to an equally destructive raid using conventional weapons, as happened to numerous Japanese and German cities? Or do you object to all WWII strategic bombing, and accept the extension of the Holocaust and expected casualties from an invasion of mainland Japan as the lesser evils?
The out-of-the-box assumptions of guilt here (by a lawyer nonetheless) are also telling for the true nature of this "war crimes prosecution"....
I'm not saying that these aren't potentially horrible human rights abuses that deserve a serious investigation or that there isn't any way to seek justice for such violations. But cavalierly hauling people in front of a "war crimes tribunal" is probably not the best way of getting any kind of legitimate justice.
I'm not sure why you put in those scare quotes, but to me bringing people to court to answer for their crimes seems like the only way to get justice.
A court usually derives its legitimacy, at least in the West, from being an unbiased or at least fair decisionmaker of guilt or innocence. Tribunals used to mete out obvious "victor's justice" with the window dressing of some sort of "court" are not that and do not one any favors in seeking actual justice.
If you just want to execute the guy because he is a bad man and lost a war, do it in front of a military commission and then hang him. Don't put on some dog and pony show though...
Do you have evidence that the war crime tribunals in the Hague are only "victor's justice?" Or that the evidence submitted was insufficient in some manner? Or that the charges were faked?
Finally, emphasis on the war crimes issue can help maintain opposition to Putin's war in the West, and continue to mobilize international opinion against it.
This is the problem. There may be a time when we may need to support a settlement, a peace deal, something less than full prosecution of war against Russia. We may even need to make an agreement with Putin.
Calling him a "war criminal" makes it more difficult to do that. And that's bad foreign policy.
Not just bad foreign policy Dilan Esper, it is horrifically bad judgment.
There is a 'legal' argument, and then there is reality. The legal argument Professor Somin makes is completely divorced from reality. His argument comes off to me as academic virtue signaling, because there is no chance it will ever come to be. Putin sitting on the dock at The Hague for a war crimes trial. Yeah right.
OTOH, if you want Ukraine 'Grozny-ed' (i.e. destroyed), follow Professor Somin's path. Taunt and provoke the Bear by repeatedly poking it with war crimes stick. Then try to get a good resolution and an end to the killing of the Ukrainian people doing that - good luck with that. Sounds like a hell of a strategy. Who dreamed that strategy up....Rainman? GMAFB.
There are lots of quiet and circumspect means to rachet up the pressure and encourage a resolution that both sides (Ukraine, Russia) can live with. For the time being, degrading 20% of Russia's in-theater military capacity to forestall action against a NATO member is within reach. That, I submit, is an American strategic objective (forestalling further Russian adventurism westward). The Europeans seem to have geared up for a robust response, Europe can send weapons to Ukraine, discreetly. Or not. Their choice.
I think people need to disabuse themselves of the idea that there will be a winner here. There are no winners. There are only losers who differ only by degree.
"OTOH, if you want Ukraine 'Grozny-ed' (i.e. destroyed), follow Professor Somin's path. Taunt and provoke the Bear by repeatedly poking it with war crimes stick. Then try to get a good resolution and an end to the killing of the Ukrainian people doing that - good luck with that. Sounds like a hell of a strategy. Who dreamed that strategy up....Rainman? GMAFB."
What happens to your theory when you realize that Russia has been annihilating cities indiscriminately before accusations of war crimes? What happens when you realize that's simply how Russia fights wars, without regards to LOAC or any other moral boundaries?
Are you just throwing causality out of the window because you don't like Biden, or do you really believe that actions in the present cause actions in the past?
Calling him a "war criminal" makes it more difficult to do that.
On the contrary. Prosecuting him for war crimes gives the West one more thing that it can concede in peace talks.
Hear, hear!
I would look at this slightly differently. Law is based on one of two things: agreement or a near monopoly on force. Declarations of criminality require the latter. So if one actually intends to take such a declaration (and have it taken) seriously, one has to achieve the necessary near-monopoly of force to be able to give it meaning and effect.
Otherwise, if one wants law, one is better off achieving what can be achieved by agreement, which precludes declarations of criminality.
Simply making declarations without intending to give them effect is a form of magical incantation. It’s like voodoo. It’s an essentially superstitious practice. If one is going to have people dress in robes and wigs and enter a ritual chamber, you’d be better off being honest about it and have people slaughter a sheep and stick voodoo pins in an effigy or whatever, rather than going through the equally-superstitious rituals of a trial and making a declaration of guilt.
"This is the problem. There may be a time when we may need to support a settlement, a peace deal, something less than full prosecution of war against Russia. We may even need to make an agreement with Putin."
We already have an agreement with Russia about this issue.
You can't make a peace deal with someone who can't credibly offer peace. If we want Putin to stop doing the stuff, we have to force him to stop.
This sort of talk is foolish. Russia isn’t going to be a conquered nation, so the leadership of Russia — and that’s Putin right now — is going to have to be a leadership the world lives with.
If you want them to do something, like stop the war in Ukraine for example, you need to make the future after doing it look attractive. Stupid bullshit about war crimes tribunals is the exact opposite of an attractive future for them. So you’re effectively arguing against your desired outcome with that nonsense.
Tell someone they have no future if they lose, you guarantee that they fight like their life and everything else depends on it. If you don’t want to be so extremely stupid, you tell them they can stop fighting any time — like now might be a good time to stop — and they can have a long and happy life afterwards.
But I guess simplistic moralizing that ignores pragmatism and imposes costs on others is 100% on brand for Somin.
You prefer the lack of morality, and the childish pining for illusory good old days, of the disaffected and obsolete right-wingers who can't stand Prof. Somin's libertarianism?
You never ever offer any intelligent response. Why do you bother being non-stop idiot all the time?
You preferred Ben's observation concerning Prof. Somin?
"If you want them to do something, like stop the war in Ukraine for example, you need to make the future after doing it look attractive."
If you make the future after doing something look attractive, they just do more of it.
Putin's already threatening Sweden and Finland, and he's not even done in Ukraine yet.
Why should the West live with a superpower who starts wars and commits atrocities every few years?
On the present evidence Putin himself is not responsible for most of the war crimes. Reports say he is not well informed and Russian command and control has not functioned well. The war itself is enough to hang him for if the West is so inclined and the destruction of Mariupol might stick. I very much doubt he ordered the massacres around Kiev or was aware of them in time to stop them.
A Ukrainian prosecutor says she was a long list of names of Russians to go with a much longer list of war crimes. There is a lot of video evidence placing identifiable soldiers at the scene of various incidents. For whatever that is worth. There was a photographer at My Lai and only one conviction resulted.
Keep the sanctions in place as long as Putin is in place. When he is gone war crimes trials for officers and members of the old regime can be negotiated along with trade relations and reparations.
He's aware of the accusations by this point. Perhaps that would be enough for him to take control of his own military and enforce some discipline. Except that this war is being fought like every other Russian war this century which doesn't support your thesis that Putin isn't aware. He's used chemical and phosphor munitions on civilians in the past.
Better to document the evidence while it is fresh. Putin doesn't give a hoot either way. At least he'll end up with a bigger, nicer prison than Kim Jong Un has.
How does Putin's withdrawal of Russia from the ICC in 2016 affect these thoughts?
Not at all, as long as we're talking about war crimes committed on the territory of Ukraine. (The one exception is the crime of aggression, where the jurisdictional rules are messy, but tl;dr Putin can't be prosecuted for that.)
Here is the ICC prosecutor explaining the situation: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-qc-situation-ukraine-i-have-decided-proceed-opening
Since neither Ukraine nor Russia ever ratified the Rome Statute, the case is entirely outside the territorial jurisdiction of the ICC.
Since Russia will veto any Security Council resolution, there is no method for either referring the case to the ICC under the Rome Statute, nor any prospect of creating a special tribunal like the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia
Since there is no prospect of the defeat and occupation of Russia, there is no prospect for the establishment of an occupation government court exercising the national jurisdiction of Russia for a war crimes trial, which was the theory of jurisdiction of the Nuremberg and Tokyo courts.
Accordingly, the only possible war crimes proceedings would have to be carried out in either Ukrainian courts or the courts of a third party state that claims universal jurisdiction. Several such third parties have already begun official investigations.
(Excuse me, I'd missed the bit where Ukraine had unilaterally opened up territorial jurisdiction to the ICC without ratifying the treaty.)
The real fascists are on the American left.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/big-tech-linkedin-air-force-veteran-college-debt
There are few, if any, more fundamental violations of international law than seizing other nations' territory by force for the purpose of annexing it or ruling through a puppet regime. The United Nations Charter specifically forbids "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."
Really? Now do the nations that attacked Israel in 1948. They failed then, but they are still trying. Where are the cries for war crimes trials there?
Russian war crimes. And Ukrainian war crimes of 2014. And Ukrainian-Soviet communist war crimes in the Holodomor, which resulted in the Holocaust by Ukrainian Nationalists who still exist today. Let's not forget any possible U.S. war crimes - Viet Nam, Middle East, etc. And the 2020 riot crimes of the U.S. marxists, resulting in $4.5 billion in property damage insurance claims not reported by the hijacked media or hijacked democrat party.
The battle between your two self-described personality traits is something you’ll need to seek out help for on your own.
Nobody here can work miracles powerful enough to help you.
There should be a poll on how many of the commentariat support Russia in this conflict, because sheesh.
They're disaffected, Sarcastr0. The consequent reflex is to support anything the modern mainstream dislikes and to oppose anything their betters prefer.
Why not ask the VC commentariat directly, Sarcastr0? I will go first.
I do not, repeat do not, support Russia in this conflict.
Next?
Oh, I don't think it's more than 50%, but it's remarkably high for what I see as a really easy moral question.
The harder question is how much to push Russia.
Speaking of "a really easy moral question", you could start with the so-called Libertarians here who previously gushed with admiration of Putin - this despite the fact he spent two decades destroying everything in Russia that they (so-called Libertarians) supposedly believe in. I loathed Putin for just that. They swooned over him like a tweeny girl her boy-band idol. It kinda makes you wonder just how deep their "ideals" run.....
Unfortunately, we can't embed gifs here, or I'd respond with one from the American classic Diff'rent Strokes. Whatcha talkin bout Willis?
What libertarians ever gushed with admiration of Putin?
A bunch of folks on this blog liked Putin for being socially conservative, authoritarian, and white.
This is because libertarianism now exists as a political brand, more conservative for hipsters than any tenets of belief.
A bunch of Republicans have indeed gushed over Putin, Orban, etc., for the reasons you describe. The Tucker Carlson wing of the party. Some of them may be commenters here. But I don't think any self-identified as libertarian.
Huh? I'm so far to the extreme I'm probably closer to an AnCap than Libertarian and I'd like nothing more than to see Putin drug through Red Square from the back of a Kamaz tractor.
Forcibly invading another nation is about as far from libertarian philosophy as you can get. Ever heard of the Non Aggression Principle?
Does 'do not support Russia' indicate objection to Israel's cuddling with Russia in this context?
Thank you.
Don't get me started. I'm very unhappy with their wishy-washyness at the moment.
Cuddling? Oh please, Arthur.
I'm old enough to remember when the conservatives believed in America, instead of supporting Russia.
Real ones do. I will say, however one can take an honest position against American involvement and not be a Putin fan. I'm just not one of them.
This is just a "no true Scotsman" approach when conservatism has jumped the shark and is now in the thrall of authoritarian populists.
Real conservatives are the majority of conservative voters and they love Trump, Desantis, Cruz, et al. They're all 2nd Amendment proud while happily assembling banned book lists and passing laws limiting freedoms they don't like. So yeah... I long for the days where conservatives had logically consistent principles in alignment with our Constitution. Those days are gone.
There are many wings to the conservative movement. There are still very many of us who belong to the libertarian wing, there are even some, like Romney who belong to the Rockefeller Country Club wing. It just so happens that they are the loudest and the media is more than happy to paint every one with the same broad brush.
I think you will find, however that the 2nd is an issue there is little light between anyone. "Shall not be infringed" means exactly that. Government has no right or business to say what anyone can possess or purchase.
All the rest of the moral and religious junk they can keep.
Because "Hey, this is a really stupid idea" is clearly a statement of support of one side.
For a follow up, thinking most of the COVID rules were stupid does not make one a supporter of COVID.
Assuming Russia does lose the war, my preference would be that Putin be handed a shovel and be made to help clear away the rubble in the cities that he shelled.
No country allows its citizens to be put on trial for war crimes unless they are completely beaten, laying on the ground with the enemy's foot on their chest.
Therefore, the threat of war crime trials motivates the evil country to fight to the last ounce of ability before surrender. In this case, the last ounce includes 6000 nuclear warheads. The last thing in the world we want to motivate is for the Russians to push the launch button.
No country allows its citizens to be put on trial for war crimes unless they are completely beaten, laying on the ground with the enemy's foot on their chest.
There is no force which is going to punish Putin for any war crime, unless Somin is imagining Ukraine invading Russia and asserting such authority. Most of us don't see that happening.
Perhaps the punishment would be confining him to Russia -- a circumstance so unpleasant that anyone with money in Russia seems to reject it -- for the rest of his life.
Good Lord man are you serious? Maybe stop censoring anything that is not pro Ukrainian before you start the kangaroo trials.
I sense you are constitutionally incapable of determining, let alone embracing, the moral side of any issue.
Fortunately, that is nothing replacement won't solve.
Wait, Tucker Carlson has been ousted from the airwaves and imprisoned?
Quite true. For years, that provision of the Charter was no more than pious aspiration. The United States took a principled position on the rule and instead of saying that "good guys" could ignore it for good reasons, even took the position that it was wrong for Tanzania to invade Uganda to get rid of Idi Amin, and for Vietnam to invade Cambodia to get rid of the Khmer Rouge. (We didn't take the principle further and try to have sanctions imposed on the invaders, but at least we took a consistent position.
As the Cold War was winding down, it began to look like the international community was prepared to take the rule against unlawful force or use of force seriously, and when Saddam Hussein thought he could get away with invading and conquering Kuwait, he found the world--including the five permanent members of the Security Council--united against him.
I remember foolishly thinking we could now expect the rule of law to be a real think in international affairs. But then the United States and NATO launched a war against Yugoslavia in 1999, with the purpose and intent of violating that country's independence (and eventually its territorial integrity). And in 2002, the United States and its "coalition of the willing" invaded Iraq, ostensibly because we said we were threatened by Iraq's weapons off mass destruction, but really because we wanted to bring about regime change (i.e., to violate the independence of Iraq).
So if we're serious about enforcing the rule against aggressive war, let's go ahead and crank up the war-crimes tribunals if you like, but let's be prepared to issue arrest warrants for Bill Clinton and George W. Bush too. Or are we, like the Russians, going to treat that rule like Captain Kirk treats the Prime Directive, as something those who believe they are good guys can disregard for the sake of what looks like a greater good?
"real think" should be "real thing"
and "weapons off mass destruction" should be "weapons of mass destruction"
Elon Musk should take a 9% position in Reason and push for an inclusion of an edit button here rather than on Twitter.
The United Nations Charter specifically forbids "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."
That's not the full sentence which reads, "Article 2(4): All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
". . . in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations," means there could be times when 'territorial integrity or political independence' could be violated.
No, article 2(4) assumes that the violation of "the territorial integrity or political independence of any state" is one *kind* of threat or use of use or force that is inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. Article 2(4) forbids, not only the use or threat of force for those purposes, but also the use or threat of force in any "other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations".
" I do not claim that Putin and his minions are as bad as the Nazis overall. So far, at least, they have not committed genocide and mass murder on anything like the same scale."
Professor Somin: I would not be too quick to reach that conclusion. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men, women, and children have been "transported" across the border into Russia, most likely to never be seen again. If that doesn't qualify as genocide I don't know what does.
That certainly sounds bad. Happen to have an objective source? Or any source?
Not off the top of my head, but I've seen numerous news reports making that same claim. Currentsitguy isn't making it up.
1)Dunno if you consider them an objective source, but Russia's Defense Ministry"> says:
"more than 130,000 people were evacuated through the humanitarian corridor from Mariupol to the east without the help of Ukraine. It is reported by RIA Novosti.
According to the agency, a total of 134,299 residents were evacuated from the city. Including 716 evacuees per day. 26,676 people were evacuated to Russia from the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics, as well as other dangerous areas."
In response to 'how noble of the Russians to take the time to evacuate these poor people' I note the Russians have been obstructing efforts to evacuate them westwards.
Thanks. If Google Translate serves me, that appears to be discussing the Mariupol-Berdyansk corridor that Russia opened a week or so ago at Turkey's request, further discussed here.
Doesn't quite seem to get to OP's "forcing them over the border to disappear them" notion.
Berdyansk is not east of Mariupol.
2)The Guardian reports:
"Ukrainian officials have accused Russian troops of transporting several thousand Mariupol residents through “filtration camps” and forcibly moving them to Russia through the Russian-controlled republics in eastern Ukraine.
The Kremlin spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov, has denied these accusations, claiming “such reports are lies”. Russian officials have previously said 420,000 people have been voluntarily evacuated to Russia “from dangerous regions of Ukraine and the Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics”."
Those Russians are sure nice folks, taking time when they are busy with an invasion to evacuate all those people
See my reply to Currentisguy below -- this appears to be the same claim CNN was forthright enough to admit they couldn't verify.
If you're just resolving he-said-she-saids in favor of Ukraine, that's your call. But that's not what I would call an objective source.
It's also consistent with a military action trying to spare civilians. I suspect most would agree that's better than proceeding with the civilians left in place.
"It's also consistent with a military action trying to spare civilians. I suspect most would agree that's better than proceeding with the civilians left in place."
You fucking idiot.
Is it consistent with trying to spare civilians, to intentionally target residential buildings? Bomb shelters? Deliberately prevent food convoys from reaching those who are trapped in the cities you're indiscriminately shelling? Forcing those trying to evacuate to go into your country instead of their own? Intentionally shooting unarmed civilians with their hands in the air?
Maybe this all sounds ridiculous to you because you didn't pay any goddamn attention to what happened in Chechnya or Syria.
I think you should go to Ukraine yourself and help deliver the 'objective' truth to the rest of us.
All this time I knew you were a piece of shit. Little did I know that you were previously only providing us a small sampling of your true inner fuckwad.
Most persuasive post ever, my friend. Hopefully you worked out just a shred of your inner rage penning that thought-free vitriol, but I'd suggest you strongly consider professional help before you work yourself into some long-term health problems.
I do believe that you’ve been proven to be an ignorant Russian apologist, and that you can go fuck right off.
There has been an interview with one woman who managed to escape from transport when the bus stopped for a short refueling.
Here's an article describing the process:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/07/europe/ukraine-mariupol-russia-deportation-cmd-intl/index.html
Some excerpts from your link -- this doesn't even begin to support either the volume or the ominousness of your original proposition:
It's pretty hard to get info out of a city under siege, just like we didn't get a lot of personal stories out of Dachau until it was liberated. There are satellite photos of the filtration camps and they are largen enough to process far more than a small handful of people.
OK. So you want to start WW3 over some indescript satellite photos, exaggerated news articles, and a truckload of faith. That's not nearly enough for me.
Here are some more excerpts you missed:
"Rather than allowing safe passage out of the city, Russian and separatist troops are taking tens of thousands of civilians to so-called "filtration centers" in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) in eastern Ukraine, which Moscow recognizes as independent, before moving them to Russia,..."
"Russian forces also used "filtration camps" during the war in Chechnya in the 1990s, where human rights groups documented extensive abuses, including torture, hostage-taking and extrajudicial killings...."
" Russian Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev said that more than 550,000 people had been evacuated from "dangerous regions of Ukraine" to Russia since the war began, including more than 121,000 people from Mariupol, according to state-owned Russian news agency TASS. "
You deliberately clipped "according to Ukraine's government, humanitarian watchdogs, and US officials" and replaced it with an ellipsis.
Taking a sentence clearly relaying unattributed rumors and crop-quoting it to appear as though it was reporting actual facts seems just a bit unnecessary if the supposed facts are as clear-cut as claimed. I'm frankly a bit surprised you would do something like that -- I've always seen you as one of the more level-headed ones around here.
Oh, come on. You had the link to the article.
You apparently don't consider 'US officials' to be a credible source, fair enough.
You don't believe Russian Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev either? Do you believe anyone but yourself?
Prof. Somin: Might it be better, at least initially, to pursue removal of Russia from the United Nations Security Council?
Thank you.
I would back that fully. I'm not exactly sure there is a process to do so, though.
I suppose theoretically if a "government in exile" arose and was recognized they could take the seat.
One might argue that the country identified as entitled to a council position -- the Soviet Union -- no longer exists.
A similar issue developed with respect to China.
Um, how exactly would one "pursue" that? Russia is a permanent member with a veto.
Well, the Soviet Union is a member with a veto. But the Soviet Union doesn't exist. I'm not sure how Russia got their seat without amending the UN Charter.
*permanent member
The Soviet Union was. The Russian Federation was never actually voted into the UN as a member, if the Ukrainian ambassador is to be believed.
The UN Charter says USSR:
"The Security Council shall consist of fifteen Members of the United Nations. The Republic of China, France, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America shall be permanent members of the Security Council."
And yet the rules of the UN state that a successor state is NOT automatically considered part of the UN, and must be voted in.
USSR was. The Russian Federation was not.
And the Russian Federation isn't a successor state of the USSR. In 1991 the remaining members of the USSR agreed that the USSR no longer existed, and created the Commonwealth of Independent States in its place.
It depends whether an entity is considered a successor or a continuation. When UN member India was partitioned, the entity labeled India kept India's seat, and Pakistan had to be admitted. When UN member Pakistan was partitioned, Pakistan kept Pakistan's seat, and Bangladesh had to be admitted. When Syria and Egypt merged to form the UAR, the new entity did not require new admission. When Syria seceded from the UAR, it did not require readmission, and neither did Egypt.
When France lost Algeria… well, you get the idea. (And, no, it's not because the continuing entities kept their names. See the whole UAR thing.)
And, to focus on the Security Council: the ROC was replaced by the PRC without requiring any admissions.
In other words, even with TwelveInchPianist's statement above, it could be legally argued either way with Russia?
The Ambassador's argument obviously has a ton of moral persuasion behind it.
It would seem that you have made up your minds about guilt or innocence of President Putin. That is not investigative journalism.
Sounds like an idea. Right after the US is indicted for its innumerable war crimes. And maybe check into Zelenski's own crimes against humanity while we're at it? But otherwise, please feel free to mindlessly virtue signal to your heart's (not brain's) content.
It's abundantly clear that Putin doesn't care what anyone thinks of him, but whether he is ever tried or found guilty, his actions prove him to be a war criminal, and that is how he will forever be remembered in the west. There's some dark irony in the English translation of his name. "Vladimir" is Russian for Prince of Peace.
Maybe not the best play considering the rest of the world is getting pretty sick of our fake assed morality when it comes to pulping thousands of civilians during war.
Also, this global mandate to rearrange leadership the second it’s inconvenient will be turned on us in about 5 seconds.
And even if you could remove Putin, is he going to be any worse than the guy who rises to the top in the inevitable civil war between our globalist puppet and “real” power brokers in Russia?
Do we want a gazillion nukes falling into the hands of multiple factions in said civil war?