The Volokh Conspiracy
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More on the Students' Disruption of the Yale Law School Event
For my earlier post on the incident, see here; three follow-ups:
[1.] Dean Erwin Chemerinsky (Berkeley Law)—one of the most prominent liberal constitutional law scholars in the country—and Chancellor Howard Gillman (UC Irvine) had a Washington Post op-ed, "Free speech doesn't mean hecklers get to shut down campus debate"; an excerpt:
Freedom of speech does not include a right to shout down others so they cannot be heard…. It is profoundly disturbing that some students assert a right to determine what messages are acceptable on a campus and try to deprive others within the community of their right to invite or listen to speakers of their choice.
If such a "heckler's veto" is allowed, the only speech that occurs will be that which no one cares enough about to shout down. If the Hastings protesters believe that they are entitled to drown out speakers invited by the Federalist Society, then they must accept that nothing prevents Federalist Society members from drowning out speakers that they support. Before too long, no one would be able to hold any events worth attending.
[2.] David Lat had a follow-up, "Free Speech At Yale Law School: One Progressive's Perspective / You don't need to be conservative to be troubled by goings-on at YLS." An excerpt, quoting a progressive student with whom Lat was corresponding [UPDATE: My editing originally edited out the fact that this was a quote from a progressive student; my apologies for the error]:
In general, what happened at this protest seems symptomatic of a feature of the student culture here that goes beyond student or administrator attitudes toward freedom of speech and beyond liberal/conservative political differences. Students here seem unwilling to have their beliefs and actions challenged. Many of my peers see the expectation of rigor and precision in classroom discussions and in community deliberation alike as somehow distracting from the normative urgency of their ends (many of which I share).
I've heard students deride decidedly liberal professors Dan Kahan and [former YLS dean] Tony Kronman as conservative or bigoted for clearly articulating challenges to student intuitions for pedagogical purposes in classroom discussions. In some cases, student commentary has become absurd in its near-purposeful missing of the point. For example, several classmates accused Kahan of hating women, even as he took pains in the classroom to demonstrate where the law incorporates misogynistic norms.
Even as a progressive, I've felt uncomfortable sharing even friendly amendments to certain student views in the classroom. I have a lot of folk explanations for why the intellectual climate is like this (students are increasingly coming back to law school after spending time away from challenging academic environments, the teaching at YLS has never been exactly renowned for its excellence, etc.), but it's nevertheless frustrating to see truth be treated as unimportant here.
[3.] The two speakers at Yale, Kristen Waggoner of the Alliance Defending Freedom and Monica Miller of the American Humanist Association, "lawyers on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum," had an op-ed at the Daily Mail, "The anti-free speech sickness plaguing America has infected our future lawyers - that should frighten us all." An excerpt:
We came to the Yale event with the goal of demonstrating that religious and political opponents can do great things when they respectfully work to find common ground.
But instead of encountering students who wanted to question us about the case {Uzuegbunam v. Preczewski—a U.S. Supreme Court case Kristen argued that resulted in an 8-1 ruling hailed by both the left and the right}, we encountered a crowd of activists who, perplexingly, tried to silence us.
Out of the 150 students there, about 120 chanted, pounded the walls, and yelled obscenities, which disturbed nearby classes, exams, and meetings.
Harassment and physical threats were reported. The police had to escort us out of the building into a patrol car for our safety.
Some students freely hurled insults including the word 'b---h,' which was particularly jarring to us as female litigators….
[W]e … understand as litigators – and law students should recognize that – that one cannot effectively argue their position if they refuse to hear the other side of the argument….
The refusal to engage with someone that holds a different point of view is an intellectual sickness that has obviously infected public debate, but to see that this illness has also taken hold of aspiring lawyers is shocking.
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Reading the comments on the Washington Post article, it’s obvious that many Democrats only support freedom of the speech that they agree with.
Progressives are as certain of their moral superiority as the worst religious zealot of the 17th century - modern Cotton Mathers. They see any others with different opinions as like those who would support child rape, followed by a meal of human flesh. They MUST shut down the evil speakers of the right. They are right and all others are evil.
Who taught them to feel this way?
"Progressives are as certain of their moral superiority as the worst religious zealot of the 17th century - modern Cotton Mathers."
Then votes for Texas abortion bounties.
I was not saying that they have the same beliefs as Mather, only the same certainty in their beliefs. They approve of abortion, transexual rights, 1619 project, etc with the same sort of fervor as a suicide bomber.
That some people see abortion as murder is nothing new. If one is a Progressive, those people should be silenced.
All religions at bottom involve a leap of faith that does not depend on rational thought. That is true of Mather's Puritanism as well as the hecklers' Progressivism. We are fortunate that burning unbelievers at the stake is out of fashion, so far.
You are wrong about Mather. He was not an uncritical zealot. He was in fact an early example of enlightenment skepticism. Being early, he did not get all the way there.
And?
Conservatives? After all, the right is not exactly known for not claiming moral superiority. I mean, there was even a once-popular RW movement that called itself "The Moral Majority."
If you think the evangelicals who support the GOP aren't dead certain of their moral and spiritual superiority you are an idiot.
When is the last time a gang of unruly Moral Majority yutes tried to shout down a public lecture?
Oh that's right---never.
If conservatives started reacting the way they should, and having militias made up of tens of thousands of patriots protect these events, and telling anyone that any disruption would be met with rifle fire, watch it stop.
It's time for conservatives to stop thinking they're dealing with good people who disagree. Start thinking of leftists as evil monsters that need to be eradicated, the way you eradicate rats in your house with poison.
Well that escalated.
" Reading the comments on the Washington Post article, it’s obvious that many Democrats only support freedom of the speech that they agree with. "
Nearly every campus controlled by conservatives in America is a censorship-shackled, speech- and conduct code imposing, dogma--enforcing, science-suppressing, history-warping, nonsense-teaching institution that engages in rampant discrimination. Not surprisingly, they tend to be fourth-tier (or unranked) yahoo factories with sketchy accreditation and shabby reputations.
The liberal-libertarian mainstream operates nearly every one of the strongest school in the United States.
Republicans are proposing, supporting, and enacting censorious statutes in nearly every state they control.
Jerry B. is worried about Democrats.
And this white, male, right-wing blog is the perfect place to indulge his perceived grievances.
Artie. Ironic bs from a hypocrite who refuses to resign and to interview his diverse replacement.
Artie, in what city are you located? The answer may explain your views.
If by "nearly every" you mean "absolutely none," you're spot on.
Allow me to suggest that an attempt at 'hecklers veto' meets the "fighting words" exception to the first amendment. It is in every case a conspiracy to deprive someone of their constitutional rights.
And yes, I include social media censorship.
If so, it's because you don't understand constitutional rights.
Correct. Social media censorship is good old First Amendment straightforward violation, as section 230 "might get broken" unless the companies censor to the likes of politicians, potentially costing hundreds of billions of stock valuation per social media giant.
You are a broken record on that one, Krayt. Nobody is entitled to a Section 230 windfall, courtesy of Congress.
Section 230 ought to be repealed totally, and unconditionally.
Nobody is entitled to sue a third party because they claim to have been defamed. Repealing § 230 would be a windfall for ambulance chasers and their clients.
Good one, Stephen.
Is shouting down and ending an event disturbing the peace? The Law School should not allow crime on its campus without accountability. These students should be identified from the video, and arrested. Let them explain their crime under the character portion of bar admission. Law school officials should not forbear crime on their campus.
That's not how mobs work.
Lynching doesn't happen where there is effective law enforcement.
Vigilantes only come out when law enforcement does not do it's job.
"The anti-free speech sickness plaguing America has infected our future lawyers - that should frighten us all."
Indeed, it should. We can already see the sickness of an earlier generation of campus radicals poisoning society, the next generation is going to be a hundred times more toxic. And lawyers as a profession have hideously oversized influence in America, they write our laws AND adjudicate them.
Frankly, I don't think the US is going to survive campus radicalism as a free society. I think we've passed some sort of tipping point, and even if we beat the threat back, it won't represent a restoration of liberty, just a different sort of authoritarianism.
We genuinely screwed up not treating the commies the way we did the Nazis after WWII. We let them burrow in, and we're paying the price now.
"The more I think about it, ol' Billy was right"
- Don Henley & Glenn Frey
Today, we are all Behar.
Why didn't the Fed Society call 911 and say, they think one of the students has a gun? SWAT them if you are going to lose your meeting.
That's a really good idea!
Most days I'd say.
Brett doesn't even think about the irony of 'we should have cracked down illiberally on those illiberals!'
Self awareness not a big deal.
We genuinely screwed up not treating the commies the way we did the Nazis after WWII. We let them burrow in, and we're paying the price now.
Care to clarify? Which "commies" are you talking about, exactly?
And what should have been done? Hanging, prison terms?
On what basis?
I'm thinking treating anyone who is an avowed leftist the way they did in South America during Operation Condor.
Prison terms isn't enough, because someone will try to secure their release later.
I'm indifferent as to method of execution. Hanging, firing squad, Zyklon B, electrocution, forced disappearance, drowning, are all equally effective
Yes, but you wanted us to reward the Nazis.
No, we are referring to the way Nazis were eradicated after.
The oligarchic families that put Hitler in power were not punished. They were recruited to rebuild the German economy and became even richer than under Hitler.
You. And yes, hanging would be a good start
"We genuinely screwed up not treating the commies the way we did the Nazis after WWII. "
Operation Paperclip'd 'em?
Brett Bellmore spouts this nonsense because he is a bigoted (birther-class), autistic, delusional right-wing loser.
And this white, male, right-wing blog is just the place for him.
The Rev spouts his usual content-free nonsense because the uncomfortable cognitive dissonance he feels from knowing deep down that Brett is right causes him to lash out.
Also, make what you will of a white male commenter calling this a “white male” blog as a pejorative. You don’t have to live a life of self-loathing, Art. Change is possible, but only when you’re ready.
You sound nice.
Hell, Brett, lets put some students to death now. It's never too late to make monstrous authoritarian mistakes!
Elements of disturbing the peace:
Fighting or challenging someone to fight in a public place;
Using offensive words in a public place likely to incite violence;
Shouting in a public place intending to incite violence or unlawful activity;
Bullying a student on or near school grounds;
Knocking loudly on hotel doors of sleeping guests with the purpose of annoying them;
Holding an unlawful public assembly;
Shouting profanities out of a car window in front of a person's home over an extended period of time;
Allowing excessive dog barking in a residential area; and
Intentionally playing loud music during the night that continues, even after a fair warning.
Good for the Dean. I know it's scary to stand up to the crazies on one's own side, but each side needs to do it.
And, it puts the lie to the absurd notion that cancel culture is somehow merely about "criticism" of offensive views. As if! It's about censoring, firing, doxxing, and the similar dangers.
I support cancel culture. Zero tolerance for woke, a masking ideology for Chinese Commie Party criticism of the USA. Cancel all woke, and send them to camp.
The methods and practices of the woke are those of the Red Guard in Mao's Cultural Revolution. It cannot be tolerated at all.
Cheerio, want to minimize those dangers? Repeal Section 230 unconditionally, and go back to edited publishing. The private sector will take care of those problems.
This one weird trick that Stephen Lathrop advocates in every situation!
I'm so confused by all of these articles regarding the "shutdown" of the Yale law school event.
It wasn't shut down! It continued exactly as planned!
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/03/yale-law-school-laurence-silberman-free-speech-blacklist.html
There's video of the event in the article. You can watch the panel!
Did no one at volokh perform even cursory research before posting?
And just to be clear: I don't believe that college speakers / panels should not be shut down via disruption by protestors. Protesting outside of the speaking venue is appropriate, preventing the panel is not.
I followed your link. There are two video clips.
The first, at a little under 2 minutes, begins with about a minute and a half of people off screen, presumably protesting students, interrupting the person introducing the event. The remaining half minute consists of a number of surprisingly fat people leaving the room obviously deliberately walking in front of the panel, and concludes with the final fat ass deliberately knocking the camera.
The second clip consists of a whole......13 seconds, and concludes just as you can hear the noises off getting louder.
So your evidence seems to be that the meeting was sufficiently undisrupted for the speakers to be heard, for 13 seconds.
IANAL, but if you are, my admittedly amateur advice would be to try to get into the habit of checking whether your evidence supports or detracts from your case, before introducing it.
The floor shook and could have collapsed from these vicious thugs.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/03/the-floor-was-shaking-yale-law-school-speaker-disruption-worse-than-originally-reported/
Oh, come on. Watch the second video in your link with the audio on. The students were right outside the room, rhythmically banging and yelling throughout the event. Your article acknowledges this as it must, and the best it can do is split hairs whether that constant harassment and distraction made it difficult to hear the panel.
Pressing on with the event as best they could in the midst of that level of disruption doesn't fit any reasonable definition of "as planned."
So the right to speech is now one of a right to totally quiet speech?
Snowflakes indeed!
You have heard of the Strawman Fallacy, haven't you? If not, that last comment is a pretty terrific example of one. You should look it up.
Is it? If I'm in an audience and someone says something outrageous to me I can't moan? Whistle? Say boo?
I didn't realize that poor Rowdy Roddy Piper was a victim of rampant free speech violations...
"Is it? If I'm in an audience and someone says something outrageous to me I can't moan? Whistle? Say boo?"
Lol. It's strawmen all the way down.
"I'm so confused by all of these articles regarding the "shutdown" of the Yale law school event."
You sure are!
The students made so much noise outside the event that many people had trouble hearing the event, and the also disrupted several other classes.
Unsurprisingly, Mark David Stern is lying.
https://twitter.com/DavidLat/status/1504841221772034058
(The thread also contains videos and pictures that illustrate the problems.)
"a Latinx legal scholar"
She is a Latina legal scholar.
"Latinix" is a product of woke Anglo-imperialism.
I stopped reading at "Latinx."
You have to speak in their language to even get a second of hearing.
The progressives at Yale pine for the good old days before 1865, when everybody had their safe space, and black folk were protected from the discomforts and difficulties of having to wend their own way in a cold, cruel, heartless free world. Things were ao much better then, Yale progressives tell us.
Well, Georgians did not have a safe space.
Sherman's march to the sea in the American Civil War – from November 15, 1864 through December 21, 1864 – is considered to be an example of total war, for which Sherman used the term hard war.
Total war is warfare that includes any and all civilian-associated resources and infrastructure as legitimate military targets, mobilizes all of the resources of society to fight the war, and gives priority to warfare over non-combatant needs.
@ReaderY, your sarcasm will sail right over most people's heads, I'm afraid.
In what sense was the event “shut down”?
Didn’t the panel happen???
ETA: JD85 beat me to it. Frothing up the foamers again I see, EV
David Lat has looked into this closely; this is how he describes it:
This is why I describe it as disruption, and as shouting down (the speakers were shouted down at least in part), though I agree that it wasn't a complete shutdown.
The woke are the Red Guard imposing a Mao Cultural Revolution. Zero tolerance for woke.
Even a minute of disruption should result in arrests for disturbing the peace. Wait for the question portion to make your opposing points. Try doing so in a lawyerly manner.
I thought lawyers were the devil moron?
Queenie. Lawyerly is a compliment in my book. I love the lawyer. That is why I want to help it.
What is your race? I want to include it in the letter I am writing to help you get the better job you richly deserve.
Lat is of course a quite partisan source and notice his qualifiers: "at varying levels of intensity, etc."). Pathetic.
Perhaps we could consult the speakers themselves one of whom is from the American Humanist Association, not a right-wing source:
"But instead of encountering students who wanted to question us about the case, we encountered a crowd of activists who, perplexingly, tried to silence us.
"Out of the 150 students there, about 120 chanted, pounded the walls, and yelled obscenities, which disturbed nearby classes, exams, and meetings.
"Harassment and physical threats were reported. The police had to escort us out of the building into a patrol car for our safety.
"Some students freely hurled insults including the word 'b---h,' which was particularly jarring to us as female litigators....
"While the event concluded on time, it was significantly disrupted."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10644501/Anti-free-speech-sickness-infected-future-lawyers-KRISTEN-WAGGONER-MONICA-MILLER.html
Are these speakers, including the humanist, suffering from some sort of false consciousness? Are they snowflakes?
"What are you complaining about, the robbers only took $100.00 from the till, there was plenty of money left, you snowflakes!"
"partisan"
Lat is not a Democrat.
Lat is a right-wing partisan.
The Democratic Party doesn't want him.
In what way is Lat a partisan source? Does he work for the RNC?
“ Lat is of course a quite partisan source and notice his qualifiers: "at varying levels of intensity, etc."). Pathetic.”
Talk about grasping at straws. How dare the bastard point out that the disruption wasn’t all at the same volume!
Whatever!
We do know that a job candidate had he job talk disrupted to the point that it could not be delivered in person.
You are cynically lathering your carefully cultivated collection of right-wing losers, Prof. Volokh, with grievance theatre that is often cherry-picked, misleading, and hypocritical.
This blog is a substantial reason that I do not expect UCLA (or many other strong law schools) to hire many more movement conservatives for faculty positions.
“strong law schools”
Yes, “strong” is the very first word that comes to mind when thinking of law schools where whiny, entitled students throw tantrums like toddlers who lost their binkies when someone dares to set foot on campus and speak ideas they find objectionable. I’m sure we can all agree that that behavior is the very embodiment of strength, and not of profound mental weakness, lack of resilience, and victimhood mentality.
What bridge is it you live under?
I want to come give you a cookie.
The problem starts with the administration admitting these students in the door in the first place. The admin is *not* committed to free speech or teaching critical thinking skills. They are committed to daddy and mommys money, or worse, the progressive cause itself and only pay lip service to free speech.
I would be curious about the rate of bastardy among the new students compared to that of the past.
The reason we see a rise in cancel culture probably has less to do with the actual policies and differences of opinion that it does with people just not knowing how to have a friendly argument.
This is likely the result of being raised in a monoculture, which itself is rooted in the diminishing number of children per household, which has been decreasing for many decades.
If you didn't need to learn how to live in a pluralistic society as a child, you probably have no idea how to successfully navigate through opposing points of view as an adult.
Lol. Where is the rise of 'cancel culture?' I mean, it's totes different from when the Smother's Brothers show was canceled for political speech? Totes different from when Phil Donahue was fired for political speech? Totes different from when the Dixie Chicks were canceled for political speech? Totes different from when Jemele Hill was canceled for political speech?
What's happened is that suddenly conservatives and white straight guys suddenly are asked to watch what they say.
Queenie. All woke are servants of the Chinese Commie Party. They use the methods and practices of the Red Guard of Mao's Cultural Revolution. Zero tolerance for woke. I support cancelling all woke.
Yes, it certainly is very different from what the Smothers Brothers, Phil Donahue, and the Dixie Chicks experienced. That is ancient history. We're talking about the call-out culture, the product of only the last 5-10 years.
Cancel culture is Internet-based. Those people you're talking about are from the last generation's media.
Jemele Hill told people to boycott the Dallas Cowboys' advertisers. NFL is a big source of ad sales for ESPN.
It was business not politics.
"Totes different from when Jemele Hill was canceled for political speech?"
Attack your single most lucrative property and, rest assured, you will be shit canned. Especially if your ratings are abysmal. She did help KILL SportsCenter at 6P.
Oh I see--you're a "transwoman."
Suddenly it all makes sense,
"If the Hastings protesters believe that they are entitled to drown out speakers invited by the Federalist Society, then they must accept that nothing prevents Federalist Society members from drowning out speakers that they support. Before too long, no one would be able to hold any events worth attending."
I doubt the Federalist Society disrupted anyone - I believe this because if they had, we'd have seen some reporting of it on this site, or from some of the commenters here.
Cal,
I'm pretty sure EV was giving a hypo...not reporting on actual bad acts by Fed Soc members.
I said "if they had, we'd have seen some reporting of at *on this site*" etc. Which is the opposite of saying EV was "reporting on actual acts."
Plus, the quote was from Chemerinsky and Gilman, not Volokh, but my point is still valid - not even a Berkeley professor claimed there were *actual* examples of FedSoc disruption.
But they *did* speculate it could likely happen in the future: "Before too long, no one would be able to hold any events worth attending."
A lot of people here seem to think "Cancel Culture" is new or "on the rise."
It isn't new. Trying to shame an cancel people you don't agree with is as old as history. Only the players have changed.
These days the left is trying to cancel the right. In the 1950s, the right was trying to cancel the left (McCarthyism). Protestants tried to cancel catholics, catholics tried to cancel jews, and Trump tried to cancel everyone (and everyone tried to cancel Trump). Now we will cancel Russians and, soon, the Chinese, because they are supporting the Russians.
But the hamster wheel of politics spins. The only thing constant is that today's cancelers are tomorrows cancelees.
After the McCarthy era, there was a growing consensus that it was wrothe mainstream. free expression, even expression outside the mainstream. You know, the idea that we are not afraid to tolerate error so long as truth is left free to combat it. Some people said that you couldn't give that kind of freedom to Commies and other leftie radicals, because they would use their freedom to suppress even moderate speech they disagreed with. Nonsense, we said, the marketplace of ideas would keep that from happening. Well, the Commie-banners were right and we were wrong, because now the radical left has power, and people lose their jobs for contributing money to support a referendum that won in California.
The people in charge now think the Hollywood blacklist was wrong, not because they believe in tolerating opinions they disagree with, but because they *agree* with the opinions of the blacklisted Commies and fellow travelers.
No, the Commie-banners were still wrong.
dwb,
your comment is a half truth. The focus of the majority of "cancellations" is some form of cyclical, but the frequency and intensity of "cancellations" is also cyclical.
Right now it is far more intense than it was 5 or 10 years ago, especially as it plays into the rites of adolescent hooliganism
The event happened like two weeks ago.
I guess their outrage isn’t THAT serious.
You're entirely missing the effect of mob rule social media. Cancel culture as we are experiencing it today is a network effect. Those other things you mentioned are attempts to censor, but that's just not the same thing. Cancel culture removes your online identity. A closer historical analogy might be a lynching mob.
DaveM, don't like the internet? Fix the internet. Don't try to fix other people. You don't get to control other people.
You could start by backing unconditional repeal of Section 230. That would restore private editing to publishing, and fix the mob-rule/network-effect problem you mention.
But it may be you don't like that suggestion. If so, ask yourself if that is because mob-rule and and network-effects are fine with you, if government will just dictate they work the way you want them to.
"backing unconditional repeal of Section 230"
I consider that to be a worthy experiment. If the country does not like the results, the Congress can bring back a more appropriately tailored verion
"Let's shut down the Internet. If that doesn't work, we'll just turn it back on."
David,
Repealing or making significant amendments to Sec 230, is hardly shutting down the Internet.
I have no idea where you got your idea that Section 230 outlawed editing.