The Volokh Conspiracy
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Male and Female Circumcision
An interesting issue of the journal Global Discourse, on Gender Equality in Abrahamic Circumcision: Why or Why Not?, edited by Ingvild Bergom Lunde and Matthew Thomas Johnson; here's the Introduction, which summarizes the articles:
This issue emerges more than 40 years after the initiation of zero-tolerance global campaigns to end all forms of female genital cutting (FGC). The practice of cutting female genitalia without medical necessity is commonly referred to as 'female genital cutting', 'female genital mutilation' and/or 'female circumcision'. Sometimes, the term 'girl circumcision' is used in order to make a distinction between the childhood and adulthood genital cutting of females. The practice is commonly categorised into four types by the World Health Organization: type I – cutting of the outer clitoris; type II – the partial or total removal of the outer clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora; type III/infibulation – narrowing the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal, with or without removal of the outer clitoris; and type IV – all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical reasons. A body of research from a range of fields shows that in contemporary hegemonic public discourse, the acceptable way of talking about, interpreting and comprehending the practice is through a framework of condemnation (Hauge, 2012; Shell-Duncan et al, 2016; Hodzic, 2017; Lunde, 2020).
However, in 2018 and 2019, the Dawoodi Bohra Women's Association for Religious Freedom in India released official statements insisting that they practise a form of female circumcision that is less invasive than male circumcision in order that girls be treated equally to circumcised boys. The statements further made it clear that the Bohra do not practise 'female genital mutilation'—in fact, they condemn the practice (DBWRF, 2018; 2019). These statements highlight two central limitations in the global work to end FGC. First, there has been little to no differentiation between different forms of FGC. Indeed, it is the most invasive form—and likely the least common globally—that has received most attention in public discourse and among researchers and policymakers. Second, there are central, unresolved questions regarding the Global North's acceptance of the medically unnecessary circumcision of boys, of which there is great variety in the practice, ranging from removing parts of or the entire foreskin of the penis to a cutting in the urinary tube from the scrotum to the glans.
Taking Richard Shweder's (2022) article 'The prosecution of Dawoodi Bohra women: some reasonable doubts' as a target piece for discussion, the aim of this issue is to better understand these limitations. In the article, Shweder proposes that some forms of FGC be legalised, arguing that the form of FGC practised among Dawoodi Bohra Muslims is less invasive than the typical circumcision of boys and that FGC is a religiously meaningful ritual among the Bohra. This proposal implies that girls should have the same rights to cultural and/or religious identity as circumcised boys. It is a controversial proposal insofar as it directly challenges the central tenet of global campaigns to end FGC, such as Target 5.3 of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goal: girls can only be empowered by protecting them from being subjected to a fear-inducing and painful experience.
This issue examines both directions within the equivalence argument: the plausibility of the legalisation of FGC; and the possibility that boys require protection from forms of male genital cutting. This second possibility—of proposing an age limit or ban on male circumcision—is also controversial, particularly at a time in which there is growing concern about anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. This may, in part, explain worldwide reluctance by otherwise-interventionist policymakers to act upon the similarities between male and female circumcision.
Nevertheless, increased concern on children's rights, anti-circumcision activism and emerging interest within the media in the similarities between female and male circumcision mean that the articles in this issue feed into a dynamic set of debates within societies. Indeed, where previous generations may have cut without question or rejected any discussion of cutting at all, parents may increasingly need to interrogate the questions of whether, when, how and on what grounds they circumcise their children.
By accommodating a wide range of perspectives on the implications of divergent accounts of harm, this issue does not seek to promote any one particular position. Indeed, the authorship is deliberately diverse in terms of disciplinary, professional and cultural background. However, as with the Boston Review series of debates regarding Yael Tamir's (1996) position on FGC, Shweder's article serves as a reference point for a series of critical responses that examine the implications and applications of the notion of the genital cutting of girls and boys being equivalent.
In the first article, Fuambai Ahmadu and Tatu Kamau (2022) … analyse the paradox of the treatment of FGC in Kenyan law, in which legislation appears to privilege gender-confirming surgery in a cultural context with less fluid gender norms. Brian Earp (2022) then shows how he and Shweder agree on the presence of double standards but depart in their normative conclusions, with Earp rejecting all medically unnecessary medical cutting of children. Next, Allan J. Jacobs (2022) shows how understanding of the anatomy of female and male bodies can contribute to debates about circumcision, arguing that the differences in female and male anatomy make female circumcision dangerous in infancy and male circumcision safest in infancy. Carlos Londono Sulkin (2022) then interprets Shweder's imaginative framework as semiotic webs that are not only tools to understand others outside of us, but also means of making sense of ourselves, arguing that semiotically constituted experiences of genitalia are central to how human beings articulate and experience images of the self. Then, Seth Rozin (2022) analyses the anticipated and unanticipated pushback he received in response to his play 'Human Rites', which sought to challenge audiences' assumptions about FGC.
Next, sharing experiences and reflections on participation in the Islamic bioethical discussion in the 2017–19 Fiqh Council in North America, Aasim I. Padela (2022) calls for the inclusion of social scientists, public policy experts and other relevant scholars in Islamic bioethical deliberations in addition to clinicians and jurists. Then, Brid Hehir (2022) argues that the UK legal context discriminates against women from specific ethnic backgrounds in its criminalisation of FGC and permission of forms of labiaplasty. Next, Juliet Rogers (2022) shows how the High Court of Australia's failure to consider equivalence disregards women's agency towards God and community in its subscription to the view that the body of a woman becomes injured—a remnant—when she is circumcised, as opposed to the male body, which becomes part of the nation through circumcision. Michael Rosman (2022) then usefully explains and analyses the debate between Congress and a District Court over the applicability of Section 116 of the US Criminal Code to the Dawoodi Bohra case.
Bettina Shell-Duncan (2022) argues that in order to understand the particular constraining conditions within particular contexts, it is necessary to add broader structural and global factors to concern for legal, social and modern versus traditional understandings of the agency and choice of parents. The final reply comes from Ellen Gruenbaum and Samira Amin Ahmed (2022) who claim that Shweder's defence of the practices of the Dawoodi Bohra is not helpful in Sudan, arguing that female and male genital cutting are best approached as two separate issues, with efforts to eradicate FGC—predominantly type III—already well established and the acceptance of male circumcision entrenched in public discourse. In his epilogue, Shaye Cohen (2022) writes how his book my Why Aren't Jewish Women Circumcised? (Cohen, 2005) is not about the circumcision of women, but rather about the non-circumcision of Jewish women and what makes Jewish women Jewish. The issue ends with a reply by Shweder (2022) to the respondents.
UPDATE: The links in the original quote turned out not to work for readers, but you can see all the articles here.
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The Ingenta links in this article don't work for me.
Also, "The Dawoodi Bohra Women's Association for Religious Freedom in India released official statements insisting that they practise a form of female circumcision that is less invasive than male circumcision in order that girls be treated equally to circumcised boys."
How is this circumcision done, and what are the resuls?
There _is_ an awful lot of "so-and-so feels that X is true" and very little in the way of actual substance in this extended quote. When someone "interprets Shweder's imaginative framework as semiotic webs [and argues] that semiotically constituted experiences of genitalia [etc.]", I get the message that they are unable to say things clearly. The only interesting question is over the nature of that inability.
"Second, there are central, unresolved questions regarding the Global North's acceptance of the medically unnecessary circumcision of boys"
Yeah, technically it isn't necessary. You can live without it. It is well established to have some medical benefits, though.
Indeed, like the advantage of boys not going blind from masturbating...
Significantly lower risks of various STIs, according to https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3684945/ .
Right. When I learned that we were having a boy back in 2008, I researched this, I didn't intend to have him circumcised unless there was actually some medical benefit to it.
Turned out there actually was.
I dunno, man. I get the sense that I might live in a different environment.
So do I. It's not what my wife and I chose for our sons, but I still recognize the arguments in favor of it.
It's marvellous what evidence you can come up with if you already know the answer...
That’s not a reason, that’s a post-hoc rationalization. No one circumcises boys out of a concern about STDs. It’s akin to recommending routine double mastectomies for girls in order to lower the risk of breast cancer. The men of Europe and Asia are not plagued with STDs relative to American men, despite their intact genitals.
It's true that the medical advantages are not so profound that we'd have had it done in the absence of tradition. It's more a matter of them being sufficient that we had no rational reason to refrain from complying with tradition.
When tradition and science contradict each other, it might be rational to oppose tradition, but when science agrees with tradition, even mildly, nope, no such rational basis for fighting it is present.
And where's the evidence that infant circumcision inhibits masturbation at all? I suspect that it's every bit as imaginary as the evidence that masturbation leads to blindness.
Mom, can I just do it until I need glasses?
Pediatric societies have endorsed male circumcision for health benefit, and have opposed femal circumcision for its lack of health benefit. They first reviewed the data.
The circum in circumcision is cutting the skin around the head of the penis.
Any such operation that removes the clitoris, the analog of the head of the penis, is by definition no longer circum, and a lie.
If circumcision, male or female, were being introduced for the first time today as a new concept, those who practice it would be jailed for child sexual abuse. The only reason the practice is permitted is because of its ancient longevity.
KryKry. Tell that to the Am Acad Peds.
Go to 16.
https://circinfo.net/circumcision_references-page1.html
In a world with 'gender affirming' surgery and puberty blockers, I rather doubt that.
Pretty different context there, especially involving the consent of the child.
Laws, it turns out, enact social mores as much as social utility. That's fine.
"Pretty different context there, especially involving the consent of the child."
There's lots of cultures that do ritual genital cutting when the children are old enough to consent, and sometimes they do "consent"
If you're going to argue every gender conforming treatment is effectively coerced, you've got a lot more evidence you'll need to provide.
I'm arguing that children's consent for life-altering procedures in the face of social and parental pressure often isn't very meaningful.
Every time I look down at my scar I think "Ouch!!" I'm glad I don't remember it.
Well this is plain wrong: "the Global North's acceptance of the medically unnecessary circumcision of boys".
The CDC:
"Health benefits: Male circumcision can reduce a man's risk of acquiring HIV infection by 50 to 60 percent during sex with HIV-infected female partners, according to data from three clinical trials."
That seems like a pretty significant health benefit, and of course that's going to drastically reduce the spread back to other female partners.
Plus we really don't know why circumcision became a thing, maybe male urinary infections were more common 4000 years ago, or there was an std epidemic then. We know there were a lot more risks of eating pork back then which led to Kosher ban on pork, not to mention living with pigs can put you at risk for cross species viral transmission.
But we do.know now with today's science that male circumcision provides substantial health benefits for both men and women, but female circumcision does not provide any known medical benefit.
You forgot to tell us what the base risk is. Cutting an extremely small risk in half still leaves you with an extremely small risk, and you didn't weigh the costs against that.
...from Africa.
Well look it up if you are curious.
But we do know 1) AIDS was out of control in Africa, and it was mainly heterosexuality transmitted,
2) the UN after conducting the studies funded a vigorous male circumcision effort in Africa, and AIDS is no longer the crises it was, probably also due todrug advances
and 3) with higher circumcision rates here heterosexual transmission never took off, perhaps because it lowered the transmission r0 to below a sustainable rate, and their wasn't enough mixing of the Gay, IV user, and mainstream hetero population when the hetero r0 was that low.
How many lives is a relatively benign minor surgery required to save before we decide it's not child abuse?
Data and lives saved have no influence on anti-Semitic deniers.
David, I assume you also agree with the science and data on Covid vaccines and wearing masks, right?
Well there is science on the vaccines, not so much on the masks, unless you are talking about well fitted KN95 masks. All the mass mask mandates never required KN95 masks with proper fit requirements so they were just mask theater.
Heterosexual transmission of HIV never took off in Europe either, where the vast majority of men are uncircumcised.
I seem to recall talk at the time of there having been a widespread belief that you could cure AIDS by infecting somebody else with it, and that there was a lot of deliberate transmission. And transmission rates vary hugely according to sex practices, of course.
But it isn't just HIV that circumcision reduces transmission of, it's most STDs.
How long has female circumcision been going on? The specific reference is to Islam, which hasn't been around that long, but many of Islam's traditions are based on earlier Abrahamic traditions.
Has anyone researched the benefits or lack thereof for female circumcision? It's my understanding that male circumcision became widespread because it was noticed that Jewish men suffered from certain conditions less that other men. That was attributed to circumcision, possibly at the time incorrectly.
While a lot of people seem to associate female “circumcision” with Islam, the association is limited to a small subgroup of Mulims, like the Dawoodi Muslims referenced in the linked literature. Indeed, the origin of FGM would seem to be more traditional Horn of Africa/Yemeni practices that were reinterpreted as “Islamic” when people of that area converted into Islam. However, this practice doesn’t exist in either the original Arab Muslim traditions nor in other Muslim traditions that do not descend from Horn of Africa/Yemeni traditions.
Both forms of circumcision are reprehensible; no sensible, informed, decent person would impose either procedure on a child.
I expect circumcision to be another casualty of progress, although it likely will take plenty of time.
This is the usual dance done when this subject is brought up and then the usual axe grinders are confronted with the obvious double standard question - "what about boys and men?" You get the same old excuses with cited evidence being a handful of generally inapplicable studies and a hardy "it is just different - there is a medical necessity there." When what they mean to say is "we don't care about boys and men, our issue is women." (Of course, they can't say that without further marginalizing their cause, but that is really the quiet part of the whole thing).
I'm not saying we ought to ban the procedure, especially if their are sincerely held religious beliefs behind the practice, but if you want to see if this is truly a medical necessity for boys just look up the actual Jewish practice and then tell me if that sounds like something that medically necessary. (I won't describe it here as I don't want to get my comment deleted).
This regularly ignores the fact that mostly Western liberal advocates are trying to impose their ideology on other (non-white) cultures, which is any other context would provoke a finger wagging lecture about "multiculturalism" and "tolerance".
But leftism is built upon double standards and hypocrisy so what would you expect.
I would say we ought to ban the procedure for both girls and boys, regardless of anyone’s sincerely held religious belief. A sincerely held religious belief entitles you to cut yourself, but not anyone else, including your children.
You are a denier and an anti-Semite. Dismissed.
I wish I had gotten my sons circumcised so I could take them to a brothel in Sudan for their 18th birthdays and tell them to go at it-they wouldn’t have to worry about catching any nasty STDs. I wonder if those who argue the “health benefits” of cutting baby boys plan to do this.
One data point but my Dad who was born in 1922 was not circumcised and he did suffer from urinary track infections in his late 80s and early 90s. I would suppose there is evidence for removing a foreskin since pretty much all American boys born after 1940 have it done.
" urinary track infections "
Did he try switching sports?
Old men, abundant around here, plan for an outpatient procedure sometime around age 70. Until then, enjoy!
Several times over the years Readery has been commenting, an issue Readery brought up as a hypothetical or counterexample becomes a real issue. This is one of them.
There is a rational basisfor the law to disguish between male and female circumcision, the distinction doesnmt even survive intermediate scrutiny, let alone strict scrutiny. And since it can’t stand up even to the Equal Protection Clause, it certainly can’t withstand any reasonable application of the Religion Clauses.
Leg’s admit it. It is based on sexist conceptions of gender role, the idea that women are somehow to be put on pedastals and their bodies regarded as differently from men’s. It is also based on the idea that female circumcision is icky and heathen, and demeans the Temple of the Body (but only women’s and not men’s). The reasons are identical to Hialeah’s in Lakumi Bablo Aye. Just as the supposed concern for animal welfare there was posturing, the supposed concern for the integrity women’s (but not men’s) genitals is equally posturing.
If it has no more real biological consequences than male circumcision, than if male circumcision is permitted, female circumcision must be too. That’s what Equal Protection requires.
The rational basis, (And I mean actually rational, not the legal "Would you have to be chewing furniture mad to believe it?" test.) is that male and female anatomy are very different, so male and female 'circumcision' aren't necessarily the same procedure.
To the extent they can be performed on roughly homologous features of the anatomy, they don't have the same effects, because those features don't have the same functions.
That is to say that men and women genuinely, biologically, are not interchangeable, and the law is an ass if it pretends otherwise.
Solution is obvious: make it illegal to perform on children, regardless of sex. If people want to get cut when they are older, be it for religious or medical reasons, more power to them.
So, basically, you think the obvious solution is to make majority practice with medical benefits illegal.
I think you've got an understanding of the law that's better suited to dictatorships than democracies.
It is absolutely disgusting that Eugene Volokh has DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the USA address the increasingly common issue of cyberstalking and online harassment.
Rather, Eugene Volokh has tried his best to HARM victims of cyberstalking by trying to argue, incorrectly and foolishly, that online harassment and cyberstalking is "Free Speech".
Who in their right mind thinks "Free Speech" should be abused by plainly malicious individuals who are often mentally ill and are purposely using the internet to harm the victims by revealing private, personal information (doxing) or slandering them online, or posting their personal private pictures?
Rather than help the courts in the USA understand that cyberharassment is NOT protected speech, Eugene Volokh has taken money ("bribes") from Google, Big Tech to peddle the false notion that harassment websites dedicated to tormenting a victim are "Free Speech" and "one-to-many speech."
Plainly, Eugene Volokh's First Amendment absolutism is dangerous for America because it allows cyberstalking, cyberharassment, doxing, and online abuse to flourish.
Eugene also tries to make it as difficult as possible for cyberharassment victims to file a civil suit against their perpetrators using a "pseudonym", to protect their privacy from even further harm. Rather than sympathizing with the unfortunate and undeserved situation of the victims, Eugene tries to argue that for the victim to file pseudonymously would be somehow "unfair" to the malicious defendant, a psychopath who DESERVES to be held accountable for his criminal and harassing behaviour.
Eugene Volokh reminds me of a wolf in sheep's clothing. He has an agenda - to de-regulate Big Tech so they can maximize profits at the expense of making Americans totally unprotected from cyber-harassment, doxing, and cyber-stalking by mentally ill individuals online.
Refute me, Eugene Volokh. Everything I said was fact.
It is absolutely disgusting that so called "Professor" Eugene Volokh has DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the USA address the increasingly common issue of cyberstalking and online harassment.
Rather, Eugene Volokh has tried his best to HARM victims of cyberstalking by trying to argue, incorrectly and foolishly, that online harassment and cyberstalking is "Free Speech".
Eugene Volokh, in his many "papers", completely ignores the impact of cyberbullying, cyber-harassment, doxing, and stalking to the VICTIMS of malicious mentally-ill cyberstalkers and sociopaths. Instead, he works hard to protect the rights of these mentally ill criminals and leave victims with no legal recourse to regain their lives and stop this atrocious behaviour. Eugene basically supports the criminals.
Who in their right mind thinks "Free Speech" should be abused by plainly malicious individuals who are often mentally ill and are purposely using the internet to harm the victims by revealing private, personal information (doxing) or slandering them online, or posting their personal private pictures?
Rather than help the courts in the USA understand that cyberharassment is NOT protected speech, Eugene Volokh has taken money ("bribes") from Google, Big Tech to peddle the false notion that harassment websites dedicated to tormenting a victim are "Free Speech" and "one-to-many speech."
Plainly, Eugene Volokh's First Amendment absolutism is dangerous for America because it allows cyberstalking, cyberharassment, doxing, and online abuse to flourish, and would leave victims ABSOLUTELY NO DEFENSE against these heinous crimes.
Furthermore, Eugene also tries to make it as difficult as possible for cyberharassment victims to file a civil suit against their perpetrators using a "pseudonym", to protect their privacy from even further harm. Rather than sympathizing with the unfortunate and undeserved situation of the victims, Eugene tries to argue that for the victim to file pseudonymously would be somehow "unfair" to the malicious defendant, a psychopath who DESERVES to be held accountable for his criminal and harassing behaviour.
Eugene Volokh reminds me of a wolf in sheep's clothing. He has an agenda - to de-regulate Big Tech so they can maximize profits at the expense of making Americans totally unprotected from cyber-harassment, doxing, and cyber-stalking by mentally ill individuals online.
Tell me, what is Eugene Volokh's solution for victims of mentally ill cyberstalkers who continuous post private, personal information about victims online in an attempt to harass, disturb, cause emotional distress, or control their victims? What is Eugene Volokh's solution for victims of these crimes to get the harassers to stop, get the harmful content removed, and allow the victims to return to their normal lives? Does he even give a shit? Does he even consider that the First Amendment may be outdated for the internet age, where anybody with any type of axe to grind or slight against an individual can post anything harmful online to affect the lives of the victims?
The dangerous part of Eugene Volokh's analysis is he COMPLETELY ignores the mental impact to the victims of online harassment, he pretends like cyberstalking isn't even a thing. Free Speech absolutism without taking into account privacy interests, right of victims to be free from harassment, etc... is DANGEROUS. The result of Eugene Volokh's Free Speech Absolutism is that victims of malicious online harassment will NEVER be able to get legal recourse from their attackers, who can post any personal or embarrassing or private information with NO legal repercussion, maliciously, to ruin lives. This is apparently the world that Eugene Volokh wants.
I'm sorry, but Eugene Volokh's First Amendment absolutist interpretation is simply dangerous for humanity and America, and is totally incorrect and one-sided.
It is absolutely beyond disgusting that so called "Professor" Eugene Volokh has DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the USA address the increasingly common issue of cyberstalking and online harassment, which is increasingly prevalent as a new type of tech-enabled crime.
Rather, Eugene Volokh has tried his best to HARM victims of cyberstalking by trying to argue, incorrectly and foolishly, that online harassment and cyberstalking is "Free Speech".
Eugene Volokh, in his many "papers", completely ignores the impact of cyberbullying, cyber-harassment, doxing, and stalking to the VICTIMS of malicious mentally-ill cyber-stalkers and sociopaths. Instead, he works hard to protect the rights of these mentally ill criminals and leave victims with no legal recourse to regain their lives and stop this atrocious behaviour. Eugene basically supports the criminals, most who are clearly malicious and trying to everything they can to ruin people's lives. These mentally-ill sociopaths do not deserve First Amendment protection for maliciously trying to stalk and harm victims by using the internet.
Who in their right mind thinks "Free Speech" should be abused by plainly malicious, mentally-ill, sociopathic individuals who are often mentally ill and are purposely using the internet to harm the victims by revealing private, personal information (doxing) or slandering them online, or posting their personal private pictures?
Rather than help the courts in the USA understand that cyber-harassment is NOT protected speech, Eugene Volokh has taken money ("bribes") from Google, Big Tech to peddle the false notion that harassment websites dedicated to tormenting a victim are "Free Speech" and "one-to-many speech."
Plainly, Eugene Volokh's First Amendment absolutism is dangerous for America because it allows cyberstalking, cyber-harassment, doxing, and online abuse to flourish.
Eugene also tries to make it as difficult as possible for cyber-harassment victims to file a civil suit against their perpetrators using a "pseudonym", to protect their privacy from even further harm. Rather than sympathizing with the unfortunate and undeserved situation of the victims, Eugene tries to argue that for the victim to file pseudonymously would be somehow "unfair" to the malicious defendant, a psychopath who DESERVES to be held accountable for his criminal and harassing behaviour.
Eugene Volokh reminds me of a wolf in sheep's clothing. He has an agenda - to de-regulate Big Tech so they can maximize profits at the expense of making Americans totally unprotected from cyber-harassment, doxing, and cyber-stalking by mentally ill individuals online.
Refute me, Eugene Volokh. Everything I said was fact. Maybe you'll try to censor me again, as you do when someone engages in "one-to-many" speech talking ABOUT you. But by your own definition, this is "Free Speech", isn't it?
"Gender Equality in Abrahamic Circumcision"
OK. The penile foreskin, if any, may be removed from a male or a female. Or at least, any policy regarding removal of the penile foreskin will not discriminate between males and females.
Now that we have that out of the way . . . there is a quite distinct and separate (though potentially analogous or related) matter of cutting clitorises and other similar procedures. Likewise here, there is no reason to discriminate between male and female so any policy can be gender neutral.