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Taking Away Foster Parenting License Based on Religious Views About Homosexuality May Violate First Amendment
From Lasche v. N.J., decided yesterday by the Third Circuit, in an opinion by Judge Peter Phipps, joined by Judges Thomas Hardiman and Robert Cowen:
Two foster parents with religious views against same-sex marriage and homosexual conduct had their foster child removed and their foster license suspended. The foster parents claim that a New Jersey state agency took those actions based on their religious beliefs….
A Christian couple in New Jersey, Michael and Jennifer Lasche, have "traditional values and beliefs about family, marriage and sex." For over ten years, they served as foster parents.
In September 2017, the Monmouth County Office of the New Jersey Division of Child Placement and Permanency ('DCPP') contacted the Lasches about fostering two children. The children were sisters, one was thirteen ('Foster Child 1') and the other was ten ('Foster Child 2'). They also had three younger siblings who were placed in foster care. After speaking with a DCPP caseworker, Kyle Higgins, and her supervisor, Katie Epperly, the Lasches agreed to foster the two girls.
By November 2017, the girls' biological parents no longer retained any parental rights, and in October and December the Lasches heard from the caseworker, Higgins, that they were under consideration to adopt the girls.
But three weeks after informing the Lasches that they might be able to adopt the children, Higgins told the Lasches that a couple in Illinois was interested in adopting all five siblings. The Lasches inquired about the prospective adoptive family, and both Higgins and her supervisor, Epperly, stated that they did not know the answers to those questions. Later, in discussing the putative adoption with the foster parents for the other siblings, the Lasches learned that the Illinois couple was "two wealthy gay men with lots of family around to support them and the adoption."
A few days later, Higgins came to the Lasches' home and questioned Foster Child 1 about whether she would change her religious beliefs about homosexual conduct—which she held before meeting the Lasches—if she were placed with another family. About four months later, for reasons that remain confidential, the Lasches and DCPP agreed that Foster Child 2 should be removed from the Lasches' home.
During that time and for two months afterwards, the prospective adoption of all five siblings by the Illinois couple remained under consideration. In a meeting with Higgins and the therapist for Foster Child 1 in May 2018, Jennifer Lasche stated that she did not oppose allowing Foster Child 1 to spend time with her siblings to see if she wanted to be adopted with them. At that meeting, Jennifer Lasche also received an update on the adoption process. Higgins explained that DCPP would present two placement options at an upcoming court hearing, and DCPP would not take a position on either. The first option was for the children to be adopted by their current foster families; the second was for the Illinois couple to adopt all five children.
The hearing on June 4, 2018, was eventful. The Illinois couple no longer had an interest in adopting any of the five siblings. And the judge indicated that the children needed psychiatric evaluations moving forward.
After that hearing, inquiries about the Lasches' religious beliefs intensified. Later that month, Foster Child 1 came home from a therapy session visibly upset because the therapist repeatedly brought up religion and told her not to feel pressured to follow the Lasches' religious beliefs. When Jennifer Lasche confronted the therapist, the therapist relayed that she and Higgins had previously discussed the Lasches' "ideas about same-sex couples." Later, after picking up Foster Child 1 for her sibling visit, Higgins and an unnamed woman stopped at a Dunkin' Donuts where they questioned Foster Child 1 about her religious beliefs. Although Higgins told Foster Child 1 that the Lasches could not "meet her needs," that did not dissuade Foster Child 1 from wanting to remain with the Lasches.
Around that same time, Higgins called Jennifer Lasche to discuss transitioning Foster Child 1 to her foster brother's home. That news came as a surprise to Jennifer Lasche because she was under the impression that since adoption by the Illinois couple was no longer an option, the children would be adopted by their current foster families.
Shortly afterwards, DCPP scheduled a meeting with the Lasches to discuss Foster Child 1's best interests. During the call to schedule the meeting, Epperly previewed her concern that the Lasches influenced Foster Child 1 and Foster Child 2 with their views on same-sex relationships. The meeting on June 29, 2018, at the Monmouth County DCPP office involved several people: the Lasches, their attorney, four DCPP employees (Kyle Higgins, Katie Epperly, Mary Lippencot, and Janelle Clark), one or two additional DCPP representatives, and an attorney for the State of New Jersey.
The central topic of the meeting was the Lasches' religious beliefs about the sinfulness of homosexual conduct. The DCPP employees expressed concern about the Lasches' belief that homosexual conduct was a sin, and they agreed that the Lasches' religious beliefs were a problem. They also sought assurance from the Lasches that they would not reject Foster Child 1 if she ever decided to explore her sexuality. One DCPP representative remarked that Foster Child 1 would need therapy to deal with her belief that homosexual conduct is a sin.
A few days later, the Lasches again received surprising news. On July 2, 2018, without providing the Lasches with the statutorily required notice, DCPP representatives went to family court and sought the removal of Foster Child 1 from the Lasches' custody. Foster Child 1's law guardian—an attorney appointed to provide legal representation to children in family court on matters involving allegations of abuse and neglect, or the potential termination of parental rights—attended the hearing and objected to the removal of Foster Child 1 from the Lasches' home. The next day, however, Foster Child 1 was removed and placed in the same home as Foster Child 2.
Three months later, the Lasches learned something else that they should have known earlier. During the annual inspection for foster-parent license renewal, they discovered that DCPP had suspended their license without notice or explanation….
The District Court dismissed the Lasches' § 1983 claim against the individual-capacity defendants for First Amendment retaliation on two grounds. First, it concluded that, as a matter of law, foster parents sharing religious views with their foster children was not constitutionally protected conduct. Second, it determined that the complaint did not contain plausible allegations of a causal link between the Lasches' religious beliefs and the alleged retaliatory actions…. Because the District Court erred in both of its conclusions, we will partially vacate its orders, leaving initial consideration of the qualified-immunity defense for the District Court on remand….
Through the Free Exercise Clause, the First Amendment secures the "freedom to believe and [the] freedom to act." Consistent with that protection, the Lasches allege two forms of constitutionally protected activity—one involving religious belief, and the other, action inspired by religious belief.
With respect to belief, the Lasches identify their religious opposition to same-sex marriage as constitutionally protected. That is correct: the Free Exercise Clause provides an absolute right to hold religious beliefs.
The Lasches also allege a plausible claim of retaliation for sharing their views on same-sex marriage with Foster Child 1. The Supreme Court has invalidated governmental regulation of faith-inspired action that is not neutral and generally applicable. See, e.g., Fulton v. City of Phila. (2021) (holding that a city's non-discrimination policy was not generally applicable because it allowed for individualized, discretionary exemptions); see also Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. v. Colo. Civ. Rts. Comm'n (2018) (explaining that state action based on "hostility to a religion or religious viewpoint" violates the state's obligation under the Free Exercise Clause to "proceed in a manner neutral toward" religion); Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah (1993). And here, the individual-capacity defendants do not identify a neutral, generally applicable basis for their treatment of the Lasches. Nor is such a reason apparent from the pleadings. For instance, the Lasches' actions do not conflict with the biological parents' rights because Foster Child 1's father's rights were terminated and her mother abandoned her parental rights. Thus, the Lasches plausibly allege that they engaged in constitutionally protected conduct by sharing their religious views on same-sex marriage with Foster Child 1. See Obergefell v. Hodges (emphasizing that the First Amendment ensures "that religions, and those who adhere to religious doctrines, may continue to advocate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine precepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned")….
The Lasches also plausibly allege that the individual-capacity defendants acted to remove Foster Child 1 from their care and suspended their foster license. Both of those actions would deter people "of ordinary firmness from exercising [their] constitutional rights," and for that reason they qualify as retaliatory….
To complete their claim, the Lasches must allege facts that their constitutionally protected activity was a "substantial or motivating factor" for the retaliatory actions…. Here, the timing of the retaliatory actions would ordinarily suffice for causation…. But as to the removal of Foster Child 1, an intervening court order may interrupt a causal chain if the court was "provided with the appropriate facts." And here, the Lasches allege only that they did not receive the statutorily required notice of the court hearing. They do not allege that the family court lacked the appropriate facts. Nor do they allege that the individual defendants misled the court as to the relevant facts. Without those allegations, the family court order interrupts the causal chain regarding the removal of Foster Child 1. Thus, the District Court did not err in dismissing the Lasches' First Amendment retaliation claim related to the removal of Foster Child 1. {[But] the court order was for the removal of Foster Child 1—not for the suspension of the Lasches' foster license, and thus that component of the Lasches' claim survives the motion to dismiss.} …
The court also allowed plaintiffs to go forward with their claim that the defendants violated New Jersey law banning religious discrimination in public accommodations, noting that New Jersey courts had interpreted the law broadly, to cover programs (including government programs) and not just physical places.
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Bigotry against LGBT people OR traditionally religious people is EQUALLY bigoted.
It's equally wrong to deny the dignity of either.
It's equally wrong to deny to either the right to be a foster parent.
It's equally wrong to require either to get "therapy" ("One DCPP representative remarked that Foster Child 1 would need therapy to deal with her belief that homosexual conduct is a sin.")
Anyone who has more sympathy for one than for the other is being bigoted.
We must find a way to be a pluralistic society that respects that equal legitimacy of both traditional and progressive views/beliefs regarding matters of sexuality and gender.
in today's version of ethics, bigotry is permitted in certain directions. E.g., discrimination against whites, and particularly white males.
Why is the State involved in this? If the adoption company has no rules around a couple's views on this what is the problem? The key is the child is not abused and is provided for. Life isn't fair and for a kid in the adoption world, getting a loving family is a treasure. If they say they don't like Catholics..why care.
This is The People's Republic of New Jersey we are talking about = Why is the State involved in this?
This is a weird question. The State (or, technically, the county) initiated the foster placement. DCPP seems involved in every step along the way.
Regardless, children aren't chattel. Surely the state has some generalized interest in making sure that children with no inherent custodial arrangement and are in fact "not abused and provided for". I don't say this in support of what's going on in this case necessarily, just to answer your question of "why is the State involved?"
Titus, you ask a good question. Experience in the trenches as a court-appointed attorney thirty-some years ago, allows me to provide a response. The state court responsible for placement of children in foster care in neglect/abuse cases requires licensing and regulations to ensure that foster care homes/families are safe. The statutory standard under The Uniform Probate Code adopted in all states is "the least restrictive placement." The Court attempts to keep siblings together. This is the "Foster Care System" and it's regulated by the state where the children "are found" (reside).
The children are assigned an LGAL. (Legal Guardian ad Litem) The parent(s) have either a court-appointed attorney or have retained counsel.
The State Court is required to review placement every 90 or 180 days. The State is required to provide reunification services to the parents to protect the constitutionally protected parent/child relationship which is coexistent as far as parents and children are concerned.
Periodic hearings are held. The parental rights of one or both parents may be terminated if parents fail to meet the minimal goals. Extensions are granted if a parent makes minimum compliance.
If both parents' rights are terminated for failure to complete their individual treatment plan, then the children become available for adoption. Again, there is a high priority assigned to keeping siblings together. Relatives within the fifth degree of consanguinity have priority for foster care and for adoption; second priority for adoption is with the Foster Parents.
If the Foster Parents are not willing to adopt all of the children, at that time, an adoption agency enters the picture. The adoption agency is not limited to seeking adoptive parents in the children's home state. The goal of keeping siblings together is still prioritized, but exceptions may be made as in the case at issue.
That was the posture in this case after the parents' rights were terminated. The Uniform Interstate Adoption Act then provides for placement with prospective adoptive parents in other states. That Uniform Act requires an adoption agency that to meet standards under that Act. But, the child dependency court in the state where the children are found is in charge. The constitutional issues arising in this case arose because of a greater awareness of constitutional rights of children in this action implicating Obergefell.
For a greater understanding of how this system works (OR NOT), I refer you to a book titled Garbage Bag Kids, written by Shenandoah Chefalo. (Amazon)
There's no "right to be a foster parent." There's maybe a right not to be discriminated against by the government with respect to certain characteristics, practices, and beliefs.
There is clearly information missing from the narrative. I am going to go out on a limb and infer that their hostility to gays was a major factor in the adoption falling though. That would explain the seemingly extreme actions taken by DCPP. I would say that makes the actions by the DCPP to be complete reasonable. The current information is based solely on the complaint by the Lasche.
I conclude it was justified because I made up a fantasy in my mind where it was justified. Therefore it is justified.
I am not saying it is justified, but it could be justified. But it could also be not justified and this ruling is correct.
It seems far more likely in this day and age that petty bureaucrats would take it upon themselves to embark on a moral crusade against the perceived evil of traditional beliefs.
Unlike any other time in history when "petty bureaucrats" fought a moral crusade against traditional beliefs? Like, say, those petty bureaucrats that desegregated schools despite the then-traditional belief that Black and White children shouldn't be taught together?
Would we still be havig this conversation if the Lasches were members of a more controverisial religion like the Church of Satan or Wicca?
"I am going to go out on a limb and infer that their hostility to gays was a major factor in the adoption falling though. That would explain the seemingly extreme actions taken by DCPP. I would say that makes the actions by the DCPP to be complete reasonable."
If there were true "hostility," rather than mere disagreement, then I would agree...
But only if we'd say the same about any "hostility to [those with traditional views on sexuality]" being likewise a reason to raise similar concerns.
I would say it was the child's views about homosexuality that probably caused it, views the child said they had before being placed with the Laches. The fact that the Laches supported that belief because it fit their own religious views shouldn't count against them.
But the DCPP employee that thinks sincerely held traditional religious views should require counseling should be fired, that violates both the law, and the constitution.
Bigots have rights, too -- and plenty of friends among Republican judge.
A truly pluralistic society requires that we be able to think of each other as "bigoted," without actually acting on those beliefs in a way that violates each other's rights...
We only have a real problem when one side or the other gets *coercive* about their view. Conservatives used to do that, and that was wrong. Now, progressives are feeling their oats.
Someday, the arc of justice will get us to a point where nobody gets to impose their view...and everybody is OK with that.
" Conservatives used to do that "
Used to?
Artie. Zero tolerance for woke. It is masking ideology for stale Chinese Commie Party criticism of the US from the 1960s. All woke are servants of the Chinese Commie Party and should be arrested. That includes any woke judge or legislator. Those should be tried and executed for treason.
For thousands of years, gays were on the wrong side of cancel culture. And only cancellation, i.e. social ostracism or firing, if lucky.
Jailing or worse was the standard. Mere toleration, or just not jailing, was a dream.
I can't fault people for going overboard the other way.
re: "I can't fault people for going overboard "
I can. Two wrongs don't make a right. The goal is justice and fairness, not retaliation.
Artie. You keep talking. STFU until you announce your resignation and replacement by a diverse. Your talk is just trash until you act on your beliefs. You are another vile white supramacist until that happens. Aren't you male? The diverse needs to be a trans female with a dick.
Molly,
Like you, I don't know what happened. My guess is that one of the children was placed with the gay couple, and that child mentioned how awful gay people are (and, where this child developed this world view).
It's seems perfectly reasonable for a fostering agency to say, "We're gonna try to place our children into home that do not advocate bigotry." Be that prejudice against gays, disabled, Muslims, Hispanics, Baptists, etc..." I don't know how practical that goal is (we all have *some* biases, after all). But probably most of us (but not all of us!!!) would agree that this agency should not place children into a home of white supremacists, and where those children will be raised to hate people of color. EVEN IF none of those children will be considered for adoption into homes populated by blacks, Asians, et al. It's just a crappy place to live, to be exposed to that kind of hatred on an ongoing basis.
If you accept the above as obvious, I'm not sure I see the distinction between hating/fearing gays and hating/fearing other races. That fact that one's hatred or fear is based on a good-faith religious view is utterly unpersuasive to me.
Of course, "hating/fearing other races" nowadays includes opposing racial preferences, or opposing the teaching of racist doctrines in public schools.
Unless they have a very good reason. The government has no business choosing one type of morality above another.
Specifically for adoption the concern should be the wellbeing of the child. A family that spends all their time driving across the country burning crosses? Yeah thats probably a stressful lifestyle, so you can justify that being a nogo. Having and relaying a philosophical ingroup preference at roughly the same magnitude an average family relays their philosophy? Well, I might not like it but what justification do I have for discriminating against this belief system when there are so many other batsh&t insane philosophies as bad or even worse that are allowed or even endorsed by the government?
Also simply having a religious opposition to homosexuality does not automatically equate to flying spittle GHF dragging dead gay corpses behind the pickup truck bigotry. Typically prog dishonesty constantly trying to conflate the two.
The government has no business choosing one type of morality above another.
Isn't this what laws do?
Only when absolutely necessary, as a free and pluralistic society should strive to avoid coercively-imposed value judgements at almost all costs.
Hard to argue laws against murder don't set up a moral system. Utility and necessity are moral principles.
I agree with Sarcastro. All law is imposed morality and value judgments, and the imposition is necessarily under threat of violence.
So if "a free and pluralistic society should strive to avoid coercively-imposed value judgements at almost all costs," and assuming that a society should aspire to be free and pluralistic society, then it follows that all government should be minimal in its scope and activity. More practically, all government should be as limited as possible in its territorial jurisdiction so that it reflects the collective value judgments of something that resembles a local cohesive community rather than imperialistic imposition.
AmosArch - comment - "Specifically for adoption the concern should be the wellbeing of the child"
A very valid comment - There is a lot of "social Studies" with agenda driven conclusions about the outcomes of children raised by same sex couples with equal and / or better outcomes than children raised by heterosexual couples. Lost in those pro-same sex studies it the natural biological repulsion for same sex romance. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to believe the adopted child can overcome the natural biological repulsion that occurs in that environment.
Evidence for this so-called "natural repulsion?"
Maybe a list of peer-reviewed science?
Or, you could provide a list of religious conspiracy theories for our amusement.
shawn_dude
March.3.2022 at 4:02 pm
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"Evidence for this so-called "natural repulsion?"
Maybe a list of peer-reviewed science?
Or, you could provide a list of religious conspiracy theories for our amusement."
Its well known basic biology throughout human history and through the animal kingdom
Would not think you would need peer reviewed science to demonstrate what is known to most everyone -
"Be that prejudice against gays, disabled, Muslims, Hispanics, Baptists, etc..."
So long as you apply EXACTLY the same standard for those with traditional views on sexuality.
"I'm not sure I see the distinction between hating/fearing gays and hating/fearing other races."
If the issue were "hate/fear," then, well, that's always wrong...
But if the issue is simply having traditional views on such matters, then being bigoted against that is as wrong as being bigoted against gays.
And whenever there's a clash between protecting gays and protecting those with traditional beliefs on sexuality, the situation must always be approached from the premise that both are EQUALLY valid concerns. Anything less is bigoted.
But being placed in a home where the child is exposed on an ongoing basis to hatred of those with a particular religious view is apparently just fine in the view of you and the DCPP.
The agency should place children in homes that will provide for them and keep them safe from abuse. Catering to the religious (or in this case, anti-religious) bigotry of state bureaucrats should not be part of the equation at all. Yes, that means I would rather see a child raised in a safe home that happens to have a white supremacist than see the child abandoned in an abusive situation.
1) We haven't been provided evidence that the gay couple were anti-religious
2) We haven't been provided evidence that the gay couple themselves weren't practicing members of a religion
The opportunity to unite all 5 children was amazing. I'd like to know more about how it failed and what role, if any, the Lasches played in that.
If the kids themselves weren’t enthused about their prospective parents then that should be enough of a reason. If they were happy with the Lasches shouldn’t they have some say in that too?
"I hate Black people" is worlds different than "I think homosexuality is a sin", particularly if paired with "I don't hate sinners"
Really? How do you figure?
"I think homosexuality is a sin" and "I don't hate sinners" are things lots of homophobic bigots say. They say it while passing anti-gay laws or picketing gay events or deciding whether the children of gay parents can socialize with their own kids. What's the biggest display of Christian love for sinners? Convincing them to move away from their sin, of course. There's lots of that love on display in Florida right now and in many other conservative states.
Evangelical churches are rebranding themselves as "welcoming" of homosexuals. Not as equals, mind you, but in the same sort of way that Alcoholics Anonymous welcomes alcoholics.
If a person goes around saying "homosexuality is a sin," they're saying "I hate homosexuals."
New Jersey should have argued that the Lasches, by definition, slept on their rights, thus barring their claim.
Heh. I got it. (I think it's strictly a lawyers/law students joke.)
May???????
September?????? (Not getting the point, obviously.)
Sorry ... "May Violate First Amendment."
May???? Seems sorta obvious to me.
Ah, got it. (Reason's particular structuring of comments makes it really challenging to know whom or what is being referenced.)
I never would have been able to guess that your 'may' referred to the OP...although, once explained, it makes perfect sense, of course. I had been assuming that yours was a response to one of the 25+ other, earlier, comments.
This is a hard case. Generally speaking, complaints don’t contain all the facts and describre events in the light most favorable to the plaintiffs.
If, as MolleyGodiva suggests, the foster parents actively tried to sabbotage the placement because they wanted to adapt tbe children themselves, the state might possibly have some justification for what it did separate from suppressing the plaintiff’s religion.
But we have no idea whether this is the case or not, or indeed what exactly is the case and the real facts really are. So the court is probably right to find at this stage in the proceedings that, if the facts as presented by the plaintiffs are assumed to be true and viewed in the light most favorable to the plaintiffs, the complaint survives a motion to dismiss.
Did you even read the decision?
Especially this part: "Higgins came to the Lasches' home and questioned Foster Child 1 about whether she would change her religious beliefs about homosexual conduct—which she held before meeting the Lasches—if she were placed.
It was the child themselves that sabotaged the adoption, because of their own long held religious beliefs.
I'm going to say the person with the best case here, the one that's not going to be thrown out because of qualified immunity, and could rack up a sizable settlement, is Foster Child 1.
To have a government employee come into their home and not only question their religious beliefs, but try to coerce them into changing them to state approved doctrine is not only tortious it's also child abuse.
You are quoting from the complaint.
As I said above, and I think very clearly, based on what the plaintiffs alleged to have happened, the court was correct to rule that complaint survives a motion to dismiss.
But it remains to be seen whether those allegations are true, or whether what actually happened was perhaps different from what is being claimed.
In particular, if what really happened was that the foster parents activiely sabotaged the adoption, the fact that they might have used religion as a way to do it wouldn’t necessarily defeat the state’s efforts to sanction them for doing so.
But I agree that even if this was what actually happened, the state might still have needed to be careful to pursue both its investigation and its enforcement action in a way that carefully distinguished the secular issue of violating a foster parent’s civil and contractual duty not to actively interfere with an adoption placement from the religious issues involved. If the state pursued enforcement in an overly clumsy (and stupid) way in terms of dealing with religion, the Supreme Court’s line of narrow “don’t do stupid stuff” Religion Clause cases (e.g. Masterpiece Cakeshop and Fulton) suggests that the foster parents might still have a claim even if a properly conducted enforcement action would have been upheld.
Also, I find myself skeptical that foster parents have a right to inculcate their religion to the children. I think there’s at least an argument to be made on the the other side. The supreme court has held they are effectively state agents, more like school teachers than parents. Foster parents are in effect operating a small public boarding school. School teachers don’t have a right to impart their religion to the schoolchildren.
Were it otherwise, the state could take away children from parents of targeted minority religions on various pretexts and give them to foster families, who could then be relied upon to inculcate the established religion without running afoul of the establishment clause.
I think this structual factor is relevant. The fact is, foster families only come in when the state has exeercised its enormous and dangerous power to take away children from their natural parents. They are paid by the state and are in many respects its agents in a real and functional way.
I think these structural considerstions, and the need to impose constitutional limits on the state’s dangerous ability to take children from their parents and raise them in its preferred way, suggests that at least for some purposes foster parentsshould be looked at as state agents. This in turn would tend to suggest that they should be subject to Establishment Clause considerations, and not considered as nothing more than purely private parties whose interactions with the children are at all times protected by the Free Exercise Clause.
I think these comsiderations are part of what makes this a hard case for me.
As what strikes me as a very clear counterexample, if the parents had retained parental rights and the foster status was only on a temporary emergency basis, I would think it obvious that the foster parent’s couldn’t be permitted to indoctrinate the children in a religion different from the natural parents. So it seems to me very clear that there are other considerations involved, and foster parent’s personal religious rights do not always trump.
“Also, I find myself skeptical that foster parents have a right to inculcate their religion to the children. I think there’s at least an argument to be made on the the other side. The supreme court has held they are effectively state agents...”
What are you trying to do to these kids? The purpose of Foster Parents is to try to give the kids some semblance of a normal life with normal attachments and well maybe some parenting thrown in.
What’s next? Is NJ going to ban teaching foster kids to drive because it exacerbates AGW, same with eating meat?
If foster parents are just state agents and can only convey government approved messages then we should just scrap the foster parent system and go back to orphanages, so the state can properly supervise the kids 24 hours a day including web filters, strict limits on TV viewing and go strictly by the book to scientifically raise these kids.
Let's see. Homosexual relations were regarded as sinful by the vast majority of people in western society for several thousand years until 2011, when the Supreme Court ruled (5-4) otherwise. Now, what used to be almost universal opinion is regarded as so unacceptable that adherents ought to be denied normal substantive and procedural rights.
I support Gay marriage. Before Obergefell, I knew a lot of Gay couples who were for all practical purposes (and -- in my opinion -- in God's eyes) married who were denied legal recognition of that status. But instead of Gay marriage being adopted on a State by State basis because it's advocates persuaded their fellow citizens that it was right, it was imposed by Higher Power (not THE Higher Power). And because it has so little democratic legitimacy, its supporters feel they have to support it by force, rather than persuasion. We've created a bunch of little dictators.
"Before Obergefell, I knew a lot of Gay couples who were for all practical purposes (and -- in my opinion -- in God's eyes) married who were denied legal recognition of that status."
God was OK with it - and shouldn't the state follow the will of God?
re: "and shouldn't the state follow the will of God?"
Rather emphatically, NO! You seem to have entirely missed the part of Eric's comment where he say "in my opinion" in God's eyes". He carefully does not claim to speak for your god or mine or anyone else's. And until there is consensus on God's will (a consensus that is impossible to achieve), then the state has no business in it.
With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible, I've heard. But yes I agree with you.
"a consensus that is impossible to achieve"
Unless you subscribe to state Shintoism.
Eric,
I'll point out just one of the reasons why gay marriage should not have been allowed to be difference on a state-by-state basis. And that is because State X tends to recognize the valid marriage that happened in State Z.
What would have been your proposal?
a. Yup, X can continue to discriminate, and if that means that Susan and Nancy are married in NY, and when they move to (eg) Texas, they suddenly become unmarried for all Texas purposes, then that's legally fine.
b. Texas can continue to forbid gays to marry in Texas, but will recognize
gay marriages that were entered into, in California, NY, Mass.
I think there would be a huge Equal Protection problem (Full Faith & Credit problem??] if Texas were to say, "We'll recognize a marriage from [State Y] that is between two first cousins, even though they cannot get legally married here in Texas; and we'll recognize a marriage from Alaska between a 21 year old and a 14 year old . . . but we won't do that sort of recognition specifically for gay marriages."
"50 different states all with their own power and rules? Sounds messy and complicated. Better scrap this project."
I don't understand your response. I gather that you see no problems with a couple getting married, suddenly finding itself unmarried involuntarily (and, I guess, suddenly married again if the two people later move to State Three).
I think you are writing that you're against the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution in general, yes? Or is your disinterest only regarding gay marriages?
Lawrence v. Texas was in 2003 and was 6-3.
I'm curious: would the New Jersey Division of Child Placement and Permanency deny Rev. Arthur Kirkland the right to foster children on the basis of the hatred he shows regularly in these very pages toward religious believers? The attitude he displays certainly merits being characterized as "hate" more than the view of these parents that certain forms of genital activities are immoral. (When St. Paul called for the excommunication of the Corinthian who was living with his father's widow, or when John the Baptist said it was unlawful for Herod Antipas to live with his brother's (ex-)wife, it wasn't because they "hated" incestuous people, or even incestuous adulterers.)
" The attitude he displays certainly merits being characterized as "hate" more than the view of these parents that certain forms of genital activities are immoral. "
You soft-pedal gay-bashing bigotry with the worst of them, Seamus.
Why?
Artie. Why are you talking? Resign first or STFU.
On the other hand, the politician's oldest trick, aside from lying itself. And corruption. And graft. And stimulating useful idiots to lead the charge on this or that issue so they can get in the way, to get paid to get back out of the way. And nice red uniforms.
Wait. Where was I?
Oh, right. One of the politician's greatest tricks is stimulating hatred against a small group (internally) or some foreign group (externally), "amd give me the power to konk them on the head, and I'll make your lives better -- I promise!"
Both parties are lousy with this. Because it works.
You hade Muslims. Or Mexicans. Or generic (but not Jewish anymore) businessmen.
The unconscionable profits of drug companies, I will hurt them on your behalf, give me the power! So it reduces their rate of lifesaving invention, who cares?
The difference is you can think something is a sin without being an asshole.
"And here, the Lasches allege only that they did not receive the statutorily required notice of the court hearing. They do not allege that the family court lacked the appropriate facts. Nor do they allege that the individual defendants misled the court as to the relevant facts."
Isn't this kind of mindless? They don't allege what they couldn't know because they didn't attend the court hearing they were illegally denied knowledge of. The very ignorance the court here is relying on is a product of the defendants' illegal acts!
The fact that they weren't informed of the court hearing, as they were legally entitled to be, should foreclose this line of reasoning.
It does feel a bit like the court is nit picking there unjustly, but is really need to know more details before calling them out.
But is being placed in the home of regressive religious bigots really in the best interest of the children? Of any child at all, ever?