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Ohio Trial Court Decision Denying Ivermectin Injunction
This was decided December 23, but was just posted on Westlaw.
From Franklin County Common Pleas Judge Carl Aveni's decision in Bontell v. Ohiohealth Corp. (note that Ms. Mikalonis apparently died Jan. 1, after this decision was rendered):
The narrow question before this Court is whether a single trial judge can, or should re-write existing Ohio law on a case-by case basis to compel particularized off-label medical treatment in contravention to the collective training, experience, medical judgment, and professional ethics of the physicians and hospital actually providing care.
The Ohio General Assembly has recently answered this question when enacting R.C. 4743.10, expressly reserving such judgments to the informed discretion of the medical practitioners responsible for their patients. This Court lacks a sound basis on these facts to either legislate with a gavel or practice medicine from the bench; capriciously formulating and superimposing its own views on individual infectious disease cases, where the legislature has reserved matters to the judgment of the doctors and hospitals trained, licensed and entrusted to provide such care.
It is entirely understandable that Plaintiff, faced with a devastating disease and limited options, would ask the Court to do whatever it can, and as quickly as possible. But, even from a wellspring of deep sympathy, the Court cannot re-write the laws to compel doctors to act against their judgment, training, and ethics, where the General Assembly has soundly rested that authority….
Plaintiff Lori Bontell is the health care surrogate for her sister, Karen Mikalonis, a patient receiving COVID-19 treatment in the Intensive Care Unit at Defendant's Dublin Methodist Hospital. Since December 16, 2021, Ms. Mikalonis has been on a ventilator, in a medically induced coma. Plaintiff seeks an order requiring Defendant to amend Ms. Mikalonis' ongoing treatment to include a regimen of Ivermectin. Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic drug originally developed for equine use, but now approved for some limited uses in humans as an anti-parasitic under conditions not present here.
The parties agree that this would be an off-label use of Ivermectin, and further agree that Ivermectin has not been approved as an anti-viral treatment by any public medical body. The U.S Food and Drug Administration, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, American Medical Association, American Pharmacists Association; and the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists have each recently issued statements or advisories against the use of Ivermectin to treat COVID-19. {The Court notes this body of advisories against Ivermectin by various governmental, regulatory, medical, and pharmaceutical bodies not for their substantive conclusion that Ivermectin is contraindicated in the treatment of COVID- 19, but rather as showing that the Defendant hospital's own unwillingness to provide this treatment in the exercise of its own judgment is itself neither arbitrary nor capricious.}
After Ms. Mikalonis was admitted to Defendant hospital, Plaintiff secured a doctor licensed in other states, but not Ohio, who was willing to prescribe Ivermectin. It is undisputed that this physician is not affiliated with Defendant, and holds no privileges at Defendant's hospital. It is equally undisputed that this physician had never previously stood in a doctor-patient relationship with Ms. Mikalonis, practiced medicine in Ohio, or directly physically examined Ms. Mikalonis. There was some indication during argument at the hearing, however, that this physician may have had a remote conversation with Ms. Mikalonis by Zoom or some other video technology, before she was sedated and intubated, and while she was patient at the Defendant hospital.
In any event, it is undisputed that Plaintiff has requested Defendant include Ivermectin in Ms. Mikalonis' course of treatment; and equally clear that Defendant has refused, citing concerns about both safety and efficacy. Finally, the parties agree that it would no longer be safe to transfer Plaintiff to another facility, if one were found that was willing to consider Ivermectin as an off-label treatment for COVID-19….
At the emergency hearing, Plaintiff and Defendant alike came equipped with arguments about whether Ivermectin is an efficacious or safe treatment for COVID-19; either generally, or in the specific circumstances of a sedated patient on a ventilator. Those pharmaceutical and epidemiological questions are beyond the purview of this Court, other than to note that they are very much in debate. This Court would be ill-equipped to parse the developing medical research on those issues. But the merits of Ivermectin, whatever they may or may not be, are not the central issue before this Court.
The central question is whether the Defendant, and its associated physicians, bearing the legal responsibility to care for this patient, should be compelled to act in a way that they believe in their professional judgment may be affirmatively unsafe in addition to being merely unhelpful…. That they do not under Ohio law is dispositive of this matter. As Defendants note, the Ohio General Assembly recently codified the authority of medical professionals to decline such treatment in the exercise of their sound professional and ethical judgment. R.C. 4743.10, effective Sept. 30, 2021, directs that medical practitioners and health care institutions have "the freedom to decline to perform … any health care service which violates the practitioner's, institution's, or payer's conscience as informed by the moral, ethical or religious beliefs, or principles held by the practitioner, institution, or payer."
Here, Defendant has credibly demonstrated that its qualms about treating Ms. Mikalonis with Ivermectin stem not only from its genuinely held doubts about its efficacy, but also about its safety. See e.g., Affidavit of Dr. Joseph Gastaldo, originally filed in Franklin County Case. No 21CV5147, filed herein, at ("[t]aking a drug for an unapproved use can be very dangerous"); accord, id., at ¶¶ 24, 25, passim (noting concerns about safety and efficacy). Again, the question before this Court is not whether these concerns are correct, or might be either borne out or refuted by subsequent research and an evolving body knowledge about this emergent disease. Instead, under R.C. 4743.10(B), the Court is bound simply to examine whether Defendant holds genuine ethical concerns contrary the proposed course of treatment.
At argument this morning, Plaintiff conceded that Defendant is operating out of this ethical concern, and is motivated in good faith by its interpretation of the patient's best interests. That being the case, the law directs the outcome. Per Ohio R.C. 4743.10(B), this Court is not empowered to order the relief that Plaintiff seeks, in supplantation of Defendant's exercise of its professional judgment and contrary to Defendant's professional ethics. {While not controlling, the Court notes that this conclusion is consistent with the Butler County Common Pleas' recent decision in Smith v. West Chester Hosp., LLC (Sept. 6, 2021), Butler CP CV 2021-08-1206, also declining to prospectively compel continued Ivermectin for COVID-19 over the objections of the treating physicians.}
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FWIW - there has been a ton of bad science and advocacy on both sides of the political spectrum with Covid.
Its highly unlikely that ivermectin or hcq are remotely effective , so I am not sure why the some people continuely promote IVm
At the same time, masking has proven to be highly ineffective.
Same with the claims discounting natural immunity with treating natural immunity as inferior to vaccines.
Far too much politicallizing the science from both sides of the political spectrum
Joe,
While ivermectin is likely ineffective, Japanese health authorities have reopenned their examination of this question.
Don
The unresolved question that I have with ivermectin is why was the India covid wave[s] so much shorted and far fewer infected? india does have high ivermectin usage for other bacteria. My take is that ivermectin is not that effective for covid, though there may be lots of cross immunity from some other virus that is common in regions of the world with high ivermectin usage. I do think we should explore that possible connection. Outside of that issue, I do think the pros and cons of ivermectin have been overly politicalized.
Ivermectin scripts peaked in August 2021 and it was mostly being prescribed in Republican populations—low information Republican populations have fared much worse since 1/2021.
So the Trumpcine is crappy but mitigates severity and masking is a suboptimal mitigation measure but it does mitigate spread to some degree. We know what works because unfortunately in 2021 we conducted an experiment and Democratic populations and red states with Democratic governors had lower Covid death rates than low information Republican populations.
So do you listen to Clay and Buck?? Clay Travis lives in the wealthiest adjusted for cost of living county in America and it is a strong Republican county and it has the highest vax rate and lowest Covid death rate in TN. Adjacent Davidson county is strong Democratic county that has a large Black population and it has the second lowest death rate in TN with similar vax rare…both avoided the awful Delta surge in the southeast thanks to high vax rate and at least mask mandates in some places.
Sebastian
The death rates by age are remarkably close across almost every state and the majority of counties in the country with some notable exceptions
NY death rate by age is is much higher than the median. Vermont, NH, Maine, WA and HA are much lower than the median.
The studies pointing to higher covid death rates in pro trump counties tend to be very flawed due to failing to properly adjusted for death by age group. After a proper adjustment/weighting for deaths by age, the delta in the death rates tends to be very small.
You are making a rookie mistake comparing states without adjusting for initial wave. And Florida’s oldest county avoided a bad Delta death surge because it was highly vaxxed. And I don’t need to look at studies because I know a lot about politics and demographics and I’ve lived quite a few places. Do you really believe the Trumpcines don’t work??
Sebastian's comment - "And I don’t need to look at studies because I know a lot about politics and demographics and I’ve lived quite a few places. "
So you dont need to look at the studies because you Know politics
but hey if you believe politics means everything, then Real data doesnt matter.
Once again, do you believe the Trumpcines work? If they work then the higher vaxxed population would have a lower death rate since 1/2021. Low information Trump voters are the group of at risk people rejecting the vaccines. And then urban at risk Blacks that didn’t get vaxxed are more likely to have been under mask mandates than low information whites in 2021 and masking does mitigate spread to some degree. So if you use your brain you don’t need to look at “studies”.
A recently published study concludes that India's actual COVID death total up to Sept. 2021 is approximately 6 or 7 times the official count.
Similar reports surface from time to time and the government disputes their conclusions, but the arguments it offers are not particularly convincing.
One argument is that the reports must be accurate because the law requires them to be.
Another argument is that there are incentives to reporting a death as due to COVID because next of kin stand to benefit from the deceased's life insurance. I see two problems with this argument: First, it assumes the next of kin have any control over how the death is reported. Second, the largest life insurer in India is the state-owned Life Insurance Corporation. It is not hard to see that the state has an interest in reducing the number of deaths attributed to COVID.
Meanwhile ours is six to seven times less than the official rate.
Sure it is.
the US death is probably closer to 90-95% of the official rate once a proper analysis done. Though the actual child US death rate from covid is probably less than 30-40% of the official rate., if the Minnesota data is consistent with the rest of the country
Group results of ivermectin not superior to placebo.
https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-021-06348-5
Go ahead, take Ivermectin, if you wish. Make sure you also take steroids, blood thinners, and Paxlovid.
Medacal proponents like ivermectin because:
1) in vitro studies show it effective (hydroquinone too) [1]
2) meta analysis of peer reviewed studies show it is effective
3) molecular simulations show it inhibits enzymes needed for viral reproduction.
4) it is extremely safe and cheap.
Anyone that wonders why someone would support ivermectin should go through the discussion and responses section of ivmmeta dot com.
[1] Those studies were with monkey kidneies at a higher dosage than used in treatments. But, ivermectin concentrates in the lungs (and other tissues) so it isn't unreasonable to say that human dosages are meeting the concentrations of in vitro studies
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2022/02/18/covid-19-ivermectin-treatment-ineffective-study/3441645193314/
So you have a link that says one thing. He has a link that says another. Who's right? Why do you think your link is better?
After all of that was answered, who are you OR I to decide that a person shouldn't use a particular drug?
So you agree with the judge here that there's no basis to override the judgment of a trained medical professional.
For a competent opinion, I'll trust the on-going Japanese government study.
Ivermectin has been prescribed all along in America with scripts peaking August 2021 and due to politicization of the pandemic Doctors in Republican areas were prescribing it—in August 2021 Republican populations in the southeast had probably the worst death surge after the initial wave.
Sebastian - you display an amazing lack of scientific knowledge and lack of any historical understanding of pandemics.
Florida is part of the SE US and the SE US has always had a summer surge during every pandemics known since the early 1800's
See Hope-Simpson's work
Nope, Covid isn’t seasonal it comes in waves. Once again, why did the oldest county in Florida not have a bad Delta surge??
I can think of two reasons why the government could legitimately prohibit a treatment.
One, where it is actively harmful - toxic, or addictive - and that harm isn't outweighed by a benefit. Since it involves balancing, such a ban would often be fact intensive.
Two, when a treatment has no benefit but desperate sufferers would be targeted by swindlers if the government didn't step in to protect them.
Laetrile would be an example of a drug that ticks both boxes, but when the Carter FDA moved against it more than 20 states tried to fight back, arguing as today that patients should be free to try any treatment they can be talked into.
That study says it reduces deaths by a factor of 3x and has a 91% percent chance of having a positive effect. Sounds good right?
The conclusion wasn't that ivermectin wasn't effective. The conclusion is that the data from the study wasn't strong enough to say it was effective.
For example a study might have one person that took ivermectin and one that didn't (n=1). Neither died. Does that mean that ivermectin doesn't prevents deaths? No. It also doesn't say that it prevents deaths.
In this study 3 died on ivermectin and 10 without (not the same group sizes). Ivermectin would have to miraculously prevent all but one from death to be statistically significant.
That is why I pointed to meta analysis. A meta analysis combines the results from many studies.
Since this is a legal blog, there is a close analogy to the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
A single price of evidence isn't enough. They need to be combined together to get to beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the same as combining multiple inconclusive studies in a meta analysis.
This study is the equivalent of finding someone's fingerprints at the murder scene. It isn't enough to convict. But, it certainly doesn't exonerate someone.
So in randomized groups of nearly equal size:
Mechanical ventilation: 4 Ivermectin vs. 10 control
ICU admission: 6 Ivermectin vs. 8 control
Death: 3 Ivermectin vs. 10 control
Were the motivations of the actors different, instead of being asked to believe such results show no benefit we'd be treated to a daily chorus about the "pandemic of the parasitic"....
Unlike most people I'm not arrogant enough to consider myself an instant drug expert for something I just heard on the news but its hilarious seeing supposed 'rational' 'science loving' people get emotionally invested in a drug not working because the other side is touting it. Basically almost praying that people die in failed trials.
**"masking has proven to be highly ineffective."**
I'll let you wade through the reported research for yourself. See link below with citations, summary table, and lay-person descriptions. TL;DR your assertion is Totally Wrong (tm).
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html#:~:text=A%20study%20of%20an%20outbreak,70%25%20reduced%20risk.
No one but True Believers really trusts anything out of the CDC
If only we had access to the underlying studies... Oh wait, we do!
A short web page summary that misrepresents paper findings is the best you can do? How about something that does not mix cloth and N95 masks, conflate masking with respiratory etiquette, confuse disease risk with particle filter rates, have crazy small sample sizes, or use terrible non-studies such as the Banglasdeshi, Chinese, or Thai papers?
Here's a better - and broader - selection to work from.
CDC:
Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings?Personal Protective and Environmental Measures; Xiao J, Shiu E, Gao H, Ryu H, Cowling B; Emerging Infectious Diseases, May 2020;
Metastudy based on data from 1946 and later.
Concludes face masks do not help
Lancet:
Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis; Chu D, Akl E, Duda S, Solo K, Yaacoub S; Lancet, June 2020
Major metastudy, concluded non-N95 masks have no statistically significant effect
NIH:
A rapid systematic review of the efficacy of face masks and respirators against coronaviruses and other respiratory transmissible viruses for the community, healthcare workers and sick patients; MacIntyre CR, Chughtai, A; April 2020
Non-N95 masks don't help
NEJM:
Universal Masking in Hospitals in the Covid-19 Era; Klompas et al.; New England Journal of Medicine, May 2020
Evidence concluded masks not useful outside health care workers; Authors publicly said "But mask anyway, it might help!"
Canada government:
SARS Commission Final Report, Vol 3, Ch 8 - It's not about the mask
N95 masks not sufficient to prevent SARS infection, but do help when properly fitted.
The fact is that cloth masks have no statistically measurable impact on coronavirus disease spread. This has been known for many years, and the SARS family has 2 decades of research for it specifically. N95 or better masks, if fitted, do provide resistance - as does washing hands or wearing air-tight goggles.
And yet, not one government or health organization has suggested wearing goggles, despite the widespread scientific evidence that is works. I wonder why?
My takeaway from your comment:
We both agree N95-quality masking provides resistance, as does hand-washing.
Which is interesting because the first article you cited (I didn't have time to check them all, sorry) also "did not find evidence of a major effect of hand hygiene on laboratory-confirmed influenza virus transmission." But you would not take the position that hand-washing is bogus, I take it. And for good reason. We know it works with GI and respiratory infectious disease, as Xiao specifically acknowledges.
That Xiao (May 2020) meta review included *zero* of the studies linked to on the CDC cite. That is because Xiao's work only considered previous research ending before 2018. That's important to know because it means wide-scale masking was rare, compared with the community-based and group-based research conducted from 2020 through today. It's also meaningful that Xiao limited the review to laboratory-confirmed influenza. We know influenza can transmit via contact with infected surfaces; COVID may, but studies show that vector is far lower risk. So one would expect influenza to more readily defeat masking because unmasking "in private" can successfully infect others even hours later via surface ("fomite") transmission.
Meanwhile, the CDC-cited studies I linked all deal with COVID and all demonstrate good or modest reductions in transmissibility. Could there be confounding factors? Sure. But has the science "proven" masking to be "highly ineffective"? -- which was the original claim -- definitely not.
Aw man, I couldn't help myself. That June 2020 Lancet article that you say "concluded non-N95 masks have no statistically significant effect" ACTUALLY concludes:
"Despite this step [of accounting for several weak-effect countervailing randomized trials], our findings continued to support the ideas not only that masks in general are associated with a large reduction in risk of infection from SARS-CoV-2, SARS-CoV, and MERS-CoV but also that N95 or similar respirators might be associated with a larger degree of protection from viral infection than disposable medical masks or reusable multilayer (12–16-layer) cotton masks."
So... pretty much the opposite of whatever you were told.
Ivermectin (and HCQ) may work - so may Vit-D, C, and zinc... They may not. The studies that I have seen showing they are not effective are in my professional opinion as a physician) highly suspect and defective...that they are held up as 'PROOF' makes me suspicious, but thats me.
OTOH, vitamins, zinc, ivermectin and HCQ are inexpensive and benign - they will not make anyone worse off, if they are ill with covid.
And the rantings of shills like Fauci et al screaming NO make me very suspicious... What is the harm, and to whom?
They will if they deter those people from being vaccinated and/or getting treatments that actually are efficacious.
How effective are the treatments for a virus with a 99.7 survival rate? How good are the vaccinations when most people contracting the virus now are previously vaccinated?
Well the survival rate for driving at night is waayyy better than that, but we STILL throw you in jail if you're driving intoxicated. Think of DWI arrests like nighttime driving safety vaccinations....
BTW "99.7 survival rate" is 3 out of 1000 mortality and is pretty horrible. Compare breast cancer (which gets a lot of attention) which is 0.2 per 1000 (reported as 20/100,000) case fatality rate.
In case you think I made that up.
https://cancerstatisticscenter.cancer.org/#!/
I don't think you made it up. I think you don't understand how to read graphs and understand numbers. If you look at the bottom graph in your link, you will see that breast cancer currently has a 90% 5-year survival rate. That means that 10% of women who get breast cancer die of it within 5 years. If 10% of people who get COVID died of it within 5 years, we would be looking at a genuine apocalypse.
The overwhelming majority of dead from Covid were moribund, died with Covid, not from Covid. This is the biggest fraud heist in history, where the tech billionaires of China and of the US increased their wealth by $2 trillion by hyping the weak virus in their media outlets.
They also got rid of Trump. Has anyone noticed? Lockdown of the economy to ruin Trump. No lockdown of the economy to support Biden.
Who exactly do you think Fauci is shilling for?
Why?
ER-Doc Comment - And the rantings of shills like Fauci et al screaming NO make me very suspicious... What is the harm, and to whom?
I had a similar take on Fauci with his promotion of Remdesivir, which the studies at that time showed very little difference
Because COVID is a weak infection, people can take anything and recover. It may not be from the substance but from spontaneous recovery. Thus careful placebo control is required, with matched samples, and double blinding.
People may take Ivermectin, if they wish. They should just make sure to take steroids for the cytokine storm, and blood thinners for the tiny clots that destroy lung function.
Today, there are effective anti-virals, with a proven track record of ending the infection in hours. One is Paxlovid.
https://www.fda.gov/media/155051/download
This controversy is a little obsolete.
This decision is correct, because it's just as wrong to compel off-label prescriptions as it is to forbid them.
That said, off-label prescriptions account for ~20-25% of ALL prescriptions in this country, and that's eminently legitimate. Most states' laws explicitly acknowledge the legitimacy of medical professionals using their judgement to prescribe medications for unapproved uses, on a case by case basis.
(There was a lot of gaslighting about ivermectin supposedly being wrong for doctors to ever prescribe for Covid, which is absurd because the whole point of off-label use is that there is not enough evidence to support general use but we're doing it anyway based on other factors.)
because it's just as wrong to compel off-label prescriptions as it is to forbid them.
Very well said.
I would also add, that it must be folly to decide any such question on an emergency basis. Questions such as off-label use should be debated and decided in advance.
The decision is bizarre. The men in white coats should have been called; the plaintiffs were obviously insane and needed locking up for their own protection, and their affairs managed by a court appointed guardian.
People who are not mentally competent to take care of themselves are not generally permitted to waste their assets on insane nonsense court cases.
A very nicely written, clear and compelling decision. THe judge treats the medical question as if it were a religious question and makes a solid case that it should be beyond the purview of the court
"...stem not only from its genuinely held doubts about its efficacy, but also about its safety."
The opinion is overall correct, but not this part. Medication that has been approved for any other use *is* deemed to be generally safe. In fact, that's a big part of why we allow off-label uses. The only real issue is then whether it's *effective* for the newer/unapproved use.
In fact, when a pharma company does clinical trials to try to get an existing drug approved for a new use, they generally get to skip Phase 1 (which is mainly about safety) and jump straight to Phases 2-3 (which are mainly about efficacy). Of course, they're still on the lookout for any safety signals that may emerge...but the default presumption is that it's safe based on the approval for other use(s).
People can have genuine doubts that are not informed doubts. If someone only hears about overdoses of ivermectin flooding hospitals on the news they might think it was dangerous. An informed person would check the overdose statistics and see there have been 4 hospitalizations in the past few years compared to tens of thousands with acetaminophen (Tylenol) and that side effects are rare, mild, and believed to be caused by a recently deceased parasite in the body making the patient itchy.
The opinion is overall correct, but not this part. Medication that has been approved for any other use *is* deemed to be generally safe.
True, but with the caveat that it has been approved and tested for safety at those doses and for those conditions. When treating for a particular condition, the population of patients in the studies may have differences in what other medications they are taking, what other medical conditions they may have, and generally different demographic characteristics than the patients that might be considered for receiving it on an off-label use.
That is why it is still important to consider both the safety and effectiveness for off-label use. No drug or treatment is without risk.
"No drug or treatment is without risk."
She died without it. That seems risky.
Chemotherapy may be approved -- and properly so -- with respect to some contexts but would use of those medications for treating a child's sore throat or a broken leg be reasonable?
Is this the same Lori Bontell recently appointed to a faith- and community-based something or other commission by Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis?
Was Karen Mikalonis stupid enough to be unvaccinated? If so, her death may reasonably be seen as a self-inflicted problem.
This dispute is a factor that should enable and persuade legitimate hospitals to decline to admit or treat unvaccinated, unreasonable patients.
I'm guessing your Medical Ed-jew-ma-cation is on the level of your Theological training (Karl Marx Universitat?)
By Your (decidedly UN Reverend-al) reasoning nearly every Urban Metropolitan Hospital(make an exception for Salt Lake City) could shut down their Trauma Units, as most people shot are Unvaccinated(for Covid, I know there's no vaccine for Gun Shot Wounds) unreasonable, Afro-Amurican, I mean "Peoples of Color" Patients.
Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland : "Was Karen Mikalonis stupid enough to be unvaccinated?"
I guess we can just make an assumption by the odds. The Texas Health and Human Services Department recently released their own study on vaccinated vs unvaccinated Texans, using data thru 21Jan22. They found the unvaccinated were 7X more likely to test positive for covid and 45X more likely to die.
It's a reminder the Right's shinny new anti-vaxx play toy has unquestionably caused tens of thousands of needless deaths. Now I grant some of those people would have probably rejected rational medical advice even if Republicans & Rightists hadn't decided there is political profit lying to fools. Some of those needless deaths would have occurred even if Right-wing hucksters from Trump on down hadn't promoted quack cures. Some would have died even if the Right hadn't demonized medical doctors, lied about covid facts & statistics, and made ignoring medical facts the latest way too "own the libs".
But the 25-35% percent difference in vaccination rates between Republicans and normal people didn't happen by accident. They were taught to be stupid - with the goal being a few percentage points of polling gain an anti-vaxx message would glean from the base's antigovernmental views. Every con artist has to know his mark's tendencies, and Right-wing leaders recognized a pro-disease message would sell.
A few weeks back the DeSantis' hand-picked state surgeon general, Joseph Ladapo had his confirmation hearing. It took several minutes of repeated questioning before the evasive Ladapo finally admitted vaccines are beneficial. That's the kind of thing you see from someone belonging to the pro-disease party.
Repeat : Tens of thousands have needlessly died because of this bullshit. Imagine when historians collect all the Right's pro-disease gimmicks, lies, misdirection & hustles. Imagine when they begin tallying the final cost. It will be a brutal indictment.
https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-status/
What do you think about Dr. Topol, Democrat attack dog. He delayed the release of vaccines until after the election of Trump, to avoid helping Trump win. He killed thousands of people for partisan politcal purposes?
You mean the same Doctor Topol who insisted the FDA should follow its own safety guidance for the vaccine and *not* make an exception for Trump's partisan political gain?
Imagine the conspiracy theories among anti-vaxxers (and Fox pundits) if Pfizer had gotten to sidestep the usual safety rules.
Repeat : Tens of thousands have needlessly died because of this bullshit.
Millions died needlessly by treating the entire population the same. Shut down the economy, ruined 2 years of schooling.
All because the govt refused to protect the vulnerable. Instead the entire population were treated the same,assuming all were at equal risk of sever illness and death.
The fact is the CDC and WHO have been hiding all the data and lying about pretty much everything.
The fact is, the data has been so corrupted, no opinion is based on any objective truth.
The fact is the CDC and WHO have been hiding all the data and lying about pretty much everything.
The fact is, the data has been so corrupted, no opinion is based on any objective truth.
Ah. But you and Tucker Carlson (or some other RW shouter) know the Real Truth.
Tucker Carlson and The Volokh Conspiracy target the same audience.
The same downscale, obsolete, intolerant, can't-keep-up audience.
iowatwo : "no opinion is based on any objective truth"
It's the core belief of every Trumpian lickspittle : Truth does not exist. After all, that credo makes it so much easier to invent transparent gibberish whole-cloth.
Worried your party's pro-disease sleaze will be seen as grotesque and repugnant at the slightest historical remove? You can invent "millions" of imaginary victims and feel much better! After all, isn't that what your hero Trump would do? Lie & Lie & Lie & Lie.
It's the way of today's Right.....
Look at the bright side: These bigoted hayseeds have lost the culture war, to better Americans. The clingers have never stuck with or accomplished much of anything worthwhile in life, and they know society has rejected their stale and ugly thinking with prejudice, which is why they are so disaffected, desperate, even delusional.
Carry on, clingers . . . precisely so far and so long as your betters permit.
While the Judge was I think correct I think he did stray into some medical areas at least in terminology.
He wrote that Ivermectin was contraindicated. I don't think that is correct. Contraindicated in my understanding means a reason for a person to not receive a particular treatment or procedure which may be harmful. Ivermectin is likely ineffective but it is also generally safe. I also bristled a little at the defendants speculation that any off label use of a drug may be harmful.
No, the judge did not say Ivermectin is contraindicated. He noted the "substantive conclusion" of several relevant authorities that Ivermectin is contraindicated, did not bear on his decision. That's different from your complaint.
Approval doesn't mean that a drug is safe. It means that the benefits outweigh the harms for the specific application it was approved for. This is why cancer chemo is held to much looser standards on safety than allergy pills.
On the subject of Ivermectin -> it is pretty safe, but has some rare, very serious side effects. The balance of risk vs benefit is pretty clear if you have River Blindness. It looks very different if you have a disease that Ivermectin doesn't work on (like COVID).
It looks very different if you have a disease that Ivermectin doesn't work on (like COVID).
That's why it requires a Dr's prescription. The Dr is making those informed calculations.
And in this case the informed calculations said it was a bad idea.
Was this law, R.C. 4743.10, intended to allow pharmacists to avoid giving contraceptives or abortion pills? I'm curious if it was meant to promote a conservative agenda and backfired by blocking what has become a conservative movement.
Ironic isn't it. A law written to protect Pharmacists and presumably doctors from being required to provide medical treatment or care in cases of abortion turns out to also prevent doctors from being required to provide a kind of care the right wingers like.
I love it when life has these little curves.
You enjoy people dying. Got it.
The smart money rides on the point that she died because she was an unvaccinated hayseed who relied on downscale, unqualified, partisan kooks for medical advice.
"Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic drug originally developed for equine use, but now approved for some limited uses in humans as an anti-parasitic under conditions not present here".
Humans first. The discoverer got a Nobel Peace Price for helping people not horses.
Why did the judge include such a statement?
The judge is mostly correct. Ivermectin was originally discovered and developed for use in animals. The Nobel Prize (in Physiology and Medicine, not Peace - 2015) was awarded because of its further development for use in humans. It was awarded to the two researchers most responsible for its initial discovery. (They actually each got 1/4 of that year's Prize, as the other half went to another scientist that worked on a different anti-parasitic drug.)
See https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/ for the background about the Nobel Prize for its discovery and development.
Because it's not wrong? It was first used in animals starting in the early 1980s and then for people in the late 1980s. If your quibble is that the "limited uses" piece undersells its use in people, that's reasonable- it's used by plenty of people in developing countries. With that said, it's only approved for a couple of conditions in the US, all anti-parasitic, so it's not wrong.
It was first developed for use in animals. You have a problem with basic facts?
I learned something new today.
I saw" equine" and assumed it was the typical BS downplaying the billions of human doses.
Its still an odd statement suggesting that human usage is somewhat novel.
Not that that proves anything. The drug is used for humans. That is all that is relevant.
The anti-histamines that I take (and are the only ones effective for me) are also sold to be used by dogs. What does the use for animals prove about use in humans? Nada.
Ivermectin is being evaluated by Japan health authorities. Their findings will be good enough for me.
The horse meme came about because earlier in the pandemic people who couldn't get human formulations of ivermectin were using the equine formulations instead.
Which is, in fact, fine, as long as you adjust the dose. It's not like the veterinary version of the drug will cause you to grow hooves.
Brett Bellmore : "Which is, in fact, fine, as long as you adjust the dose"
And are more concerned about "owning the libs" than treating covid. Ivermectin has proved remarkable effective towards the first objective. The second? Not so much.
My point was simply that the veterinary medication version is biologically indistinguishable from the human version. It just comes in larger quantities, typically in a graduated dispenser so that you can adjust the dosage for the weight of the animal.
So freaking out over "horse dewormer" is about as sensible as complaining that somebody who has a clotting problem has been prescribed rat poison.
Actually the size of the antihistamine for dogs is the same as the size for humans
Well, sure, species differ in the mg/kg they need for the same effect, sometimes radically. Just pointing out that it's the same drug.
It's stupid to make a big deal about "horse dewormer", and doubly stupid in the case of somebody like Joe Rogan, who had actually been prescribed the human version by a doctor, but who was widely reported to have taken 'horse dewormer' by media outlets anyway.
I find it kind of frightening just how happy so much of the media were to cooperate in maintaining government medical narratives. Though not half as frightening as last night's vote to extend Trudeau's dictatorial powers. We now border on a nascent totalitarian state.
Brett Bellmore : "I find it kind of frightening just how happy so much of the media were to cooperate in maintaining government medical narratives"
Frightening, huh? Yet I'll bet the house you weren't "frightened" when Trump picked a worthless drug (hydroxychloroquine) and promoted it as a miracle cure scores of times in public statements, despite the fact (1) there was almost no testing on its effects, (2) medical experts in his own administration said he was making irresponsible claims, and (3) subsequent trials proved it had no value.
Yet Trump kept pushing his miracle cure because that's what hucksters do, and he was backed-up a hundred-times over by the right-wing whore media. Meanwhile, people actually died taking a worthless drug promoted by charlatans.
But did any of that "frighten" Brett Bellmore? Of course not! His fears have a distinctly partisan bias. He gets "afraid" at the most convenient moments....
You know what? Under the Trump administration, if I wanted to use hydroxychloroquine, I could. And if I didn't want to, I could refrain. Likewise for ivermectin. Took neither of them as it happens. I did take vitamin D and zinc, which were being stupidly discouraged by the media.
So, what was there to be afraid of? That I could do what I wanted? The people who frighten me are the people who try to control me, not the people who make suggestions I'm free to ignore.
Controlling the narrative is a way of controlling people. If you can control what people hear, you can control what conclusions they come to. The idea that you're doing that for their good, that they should trust that you're controlling them for their own good, is ludicrous.
I'll take a huckster over a control freak any day.
Brett Bellmore : "I'll take a huckster over a control freak any day"
As rational, Brett, that's kinda rickety. The president of the United States repeatedly hawks a worthless drug to the entire nation, like some two-bit hack on a late-nite infomercial. Every medical expert in his own administration says he is being dangerously irresponsible. With a simple google search you learn hundreds of people died taking this useless drug for covid. But Brett just shrugs. After all, maybe Trump "sincerely believed" this particular huckster scam, like with his election fraud lies. That is your all-purpose excuse, right Brett?
Meanwhile, someone in the media apparently said "horse dewormer", when describing one of Joe Rogan's many attempts to own the libs (medical edition). This causes Brett to quake in terror. At last, a real cause for concern!
Given your outsized & hysterical reaction to this "media terrorism", it would be interesting to know the offender. I only ask because of the right-wing snowflake trick where anyone on your side (Fox Breitbart, etc) can say anything they like, but when a single person says something you dislike it's transmogrifies into the MEDIA (all-caps, monolithic entity).
Now you've done it, certain members of this audience will conclude you are the product of a Fauci-funded human-canine hybridization conspiracy.
We had antibiotic drops for our cat. It was bubblegum flavor.
MAYBE because Dis':
This is an official
CDC HEALTH ADVISORY
Distributed via the CDC Health Alert Network
August 26, 2021, 11:40 AM ET
CDCHAN-00449
Ivermectin is a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved prescription medication used to treat
certain infections caused by internal and external parasites. When used as prescribed for approved
indications, it is generally safe and well tolerated.
There was no medical reason for the doctors not to prescribe it.
Safe for human use per FDA. She died anyway.
Yes, but she died under care more acceptable to the hospital's med mal carrier. Greater good, Bob -- greater good.
Leaving aside the relative merits of various experimental/unproven treatments, you are touching on the real crux of the matter. The doctor and hospital could suffer severe consequences if they acceded to the patient's demands. Not just malpractice claims, but also loss of licensure, accreditation etc.
For good or bad, our whole medical/legal system does not permit an "I'm gonna die anyway so lets try everything and see if it works" approach to terminal cases.
So perhaps that is a fix -- patient allowed to take an experimental medicine, if he or she waives any malpractive claim.
Not just malpractice. The Dr. also has to be immunized from professional second-guessing by things like licensing boards, and I doubt those boards would be willing to let patients waive the boards' oversight and disciplinary rights.
It is weird because lawyers like us view things through the prism of informed consent, and the client having the ultimate say almost always. Doctors don't think that way.
There was no medical reason for the doctors to prescribe it, which is in fact the medical reason for the doctors not to prescribe it.
In any context, doctors do not, in fact, hand out random drugs that they do not have any basis for thinking will work on the grounds that, "Hey, it probably won't hurt."
In fact doctors do that all the time - it's called a placebo. If the patient is in a coma, however, a placebo is unlikely to do much good.
However the judge seems to have decided the case on the basis that the hospital doctors genuinely thought that the administration of ivermectin might be harmful to the patient. Presumably, since almost anything might be harmful, we must presume that they thought, and the judge bought that they thought, that administering ivermectin was more likely to be harmful to the patient than not administering ivermection.
We are not favored with more details from the Affidavit of Dr. Joseph Gastaldo but the very general comment quoted by the judge is hardly encouraging : "taking a drug for an unapproved use can be very dangerous" - thanks, Sherlock.
Since the judge refers to an emergency hearing, we must presume that the hearing was sometime in December. It would be strange to hold an emergency hearing in August about treatment for a very sick woman and hold off giving judgement until December.
Thus we know the actual result of the non-ivermectin treatment. The patient remained in a coma and died within a couple weeks. Which would be par for the course for an intubated Covid sufferer, too sick to be moved to another facility.
So - we are supposed to believe - the hospital docs believed that ivermectin would likely produce a worse result than this.
If this was a case about religion, one would just nod and say - well,
religious beliefs can be pretty impenetrable. But I'm not sure we can take the same attitude to medical beliefs.
Since the hospital docs must know that ivermectin has a long record of being very safe and has been administered to humans billions of times, and that there are medical papers arguing pro and con its effectiveness for Covid, it strikes me as irrational to believe that administering it to a patient likely to die anyway within a fortnight is likely to make things worse.
Since December 16, 2021, Ms. Mikalonis has been on a ventilator, in a medically induced coma.
This line suggests that the hearing was after 16 December.
While this outcome is probably straightforward, the law has far-reaching consequences. It suggests that hospitals might be able to be off the hook for otherwise mandatory treatment - life support for disabled people, for example - against a patient’s own express wishes, whenever they can find an ethicist to testify there’s a legitimate claim continuing treatment is unethical.
Religious and pro-life claimants in particular may find this statute regularly used against them.
ReaderY...Had not thought about that angle = a hospital finding an ethicist to say what they want, and then disconnect patients from life support against their will (or family's will). Scary.
I have a sneaking suspicion the legislators who wrote and passed this provision hadn’t thought about it either.
Somehow I doubt that the hospital is off (or that their general counsel would approve) the hook against the wishes of a mentally competent patient.
How about the elderly patient who presented with early dementia and pneumonia, then lapses into a coma. Seems like a small step for hospitals to find ethicists to say it is more humane to withhold treatment and allow for a 'dignified' death.
Like you, I'd think to myself: No way. HCPs still have scruples, and a moral conscience. I mean, 'first do no harm' is a real thing. They swear it. Giving your word used to mean something, Don Nico.
After the last three decades, maybe not so much. It is a symptom of moral and cultural decay.
ReaderY points out the logical end point (at least to me).
Indeed C_XY,
There are no guarantees and hospitals are sometimes extremely careless about risks.
I recall my daughter's pathology internship in SanFrancisco during the height of AIDS. She did many autopies on high compromised patients using procedures that I would never, ever allow in my laboratory dues to risks to the employees. Yet the hospital used unsafe procedures on a daily basis especially to "package" livers and other organs of AIDS positive bodies. Fortunately she decided for herself that it would be prudent to triple glove, always wear a mask and eye goggles.
Nobody told her masks are useless?
Clearly not a VC reader.
If I were working on the bodies riddled with oportunistic infections I think I'd want a space suit
Somehow I doubt that the hospital is off (or that their general counsel would approve) the hook against the wishes of a mentally competent patient.
Why ? The judge says -
Plaintiff Lori Bontell is the health care surrogate for her sister, Karen Mikalonis
ie she legally stands in her sister's shoes. There's nothing in the extract suggesting that Lori Bontell is mentally incompetent. The basis for the decision seems to be that doctors can't be compelled to do things that they find ethically objectionable. Which seems reasonable, so long as that's the real reason. We couldn't apply that sort of thing to cake bakers or florists, obviously, or else the sky would fall. But doctors - that's different.
The mystery is why the plaintiff had to rely on an out of state doctor. It's hard to believe they couldn't have got a locally licensed one. But perhaps time was short.
If they had had a local doc, then the only thing standing in the way of treatment would have been that doc's lack of admitting privileges. That seems to be a very different question to trying to compel the hospital docs to administer the drug over their ethical objections. Particularly as the patient's condition made it impossible to move her. In such a case, the judge ordering the hospital to allow the locally licensed doc in, to administer the drug, does not seem to be forcing the hospital docs to do anything they see as unethical.
"The mystery is why the plaintiff had to rely on an out of state doctor."
I had not noticed that point. The patient traveled out of state to consult the doctor? It is likely that the doctor violated the law by practicing medicine where he had no license.
I certainly agree with your last paragraph.
"There was some indication during argument at the hearing, however, that this physician may have had a remote conversation with Ms. Mikalonis by Zoom or some other video technology, before she was sedated and intubated, and while she was patient at the Defendant hospital."
Seems amazingly vague, but presumably the doc did not travel to Ohio, but zoomed or telephoned with either the sister or sister plus patient. I doubt this is illegal - I assume he would be able to say he was practising medicine where his ass was parked during the zoom / phone call.
I also doubt it's unethical - I've certainly got prescriptions over the phone from doctors who have never seen me in the flesh.
Generally the surrogate relationship is set to apply only when the patient is not (at the time) competent. If is very hard to believe that the "surrogate" may override the competent decision of the patient herself.
As you note, Lee, there is nothing to suggest that the patient was not medically competent
I presume being in a coma counts as incompetent :
Since December 16, 2021, Ms. Mikalonis has been on a ventilator, in a medically induced coma.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence either of a disagreement between the patient and her surrogate, when the patient was not in a coma; nor that the surrogate was not competent.
If only courts permitted employers the same freedom.
As "settled" as science gets these days, I think if I was facing severe Covid I would take my chances with Ivermectin. I know far too many people who took it (some prescribed, others went the other available routes) who "magically" started feeling better in 12-24 hours and fully recovered in 2-3 days.
If you chose to take Ivermectin that is your choice, but you cannot ask a doctor who knows better to give it to you.
I find it funny that the same people who think there is a right to healthcare and want an abortion clinic on every corner seem to have a problem with my personal physician writing me a prescription for an "off label" use of a well tolerated drug.
As for knowing better, the studies are split as to what effect and if it ultimately has a positive one that can be observed in the proper clinically controlled setting. Anyone who says they "know better" is just taking as much of a guess as the weather guy on the 6pm news.
I too know many people who recovered in just a few days when using Ivermectin. I just recovered from Covid and it took about 4 weeks. I would have liked to have taken Ivermectin but couldn't get it because I live in a state where doctors are punished if they don't stay in line with the political directives.
Ivermectin is being used off label around the world (and some more free places in the US) for treating Covid with many doctors finding it effective for their patients.
In this case why is it important whether it is effective or not and could be unsafe for a patient they surely know is going to die? Morphene is commonly given to dying patients to relieve pain and suffering. Everyone knows it shortens the patients life but is ok because it might help them. Why is this any different? The judges verdict was a cop out. He took the safe political path.
I blame critical race theory for the terrible decision handed down by this "judge."
At least I could tell that this post was sarcasm
I blame San Andreas.
It was his fault, you mean
I recovered in two days, and all I took was binge watching Helsing.
The average COVID patient gets only a mild cold. Only a small percentage has to be hospitalized or worde. So while there were a lot of people who took Ivermectin and recovered, there were also a lot who didn’t take ivermectin and recovered. There were a lot who drank coffee and recovered, who saw a sunrise and recovered, and so on.
This is what makes it difficult to be sure that the ivermectin, or the coffee, or the sunrise caused the recovery.
Just right!
Jimmy,
There is no magic at work.
The disease course of COVID varies wildly from patient to patient. The miracle recoveries were as likely to have occurred after taking a placebo.
Amazing to me that after two years, we still don't have the biology nailed down on this virus: transmission, susceptibility, MOA, and the genetics/immune system/protein interactions.
We are learning a lot, but 'oh too slowly'.
Maybe, Maybe not. The people who did not take any early intervention therapy usually had it for 5-7 days and those were "mild" cases. Causation does not necessarily equal correlation, but it sure as heck is compelling when you see the same pattern time and time again.
What's fascinating isn't those people eager to dose Ivermectin and "own the libs", but the mentality behind the scam to begin with. Take hydroxychloroquine as an example. Trump had a pandemic he couldn't easily exploit for personal gain. So why not promise the chumps a miracle cure? He gets to reject unpopular pandemic measures as unnecessary, undercut the medical authorities of his own administration as "hiding the truth", feed the corrosive paranoia so useful in all his hustles with yet another "deep state conspiracy", and play at being the One who discovered this hidden truth.
And all it took was promoting a worthless drug. Given Trump's mindset, that was a no-brainer. So in less than two-weeks he pushed hydroxychloroquine over forty times in public statements & speeches. His whores in the Right-wing media amplified that a score-times over - their motives being the same.
It's the kind of maneuver you expect from the pro-disease party, who very quickly saw covid as an opportunity to exploit.
The way to deal with the unvaccinated, I am increasingly convinced, is to deny them admission to a legitimate hospital for coronavirus treatment. Why should medical professionals and other patients be exposed to risk, silly litigation, harassment, and other disadvantages precipitated by patients with self-inflicted problems?
I have little doubt a profit- and ideology-driven institution (a converted veterinary facility in a Republican state, operated by a faith-based organization and endorsed by Dr. Oz, for example) would welcome the unvaccinated patients and make good cash selling Ivermectin to them.
Arthur, we do not withhold treatment from the sick. Primum no nocere, and all that jazz. That is one line that separates us from barbarians. 😉
BlueAnons do so love these conspiracy theories.
What "conspiracy" theory? Trump took a worthless drug that had had almost no testing and told the nation it was a miracle solution. He did so fully in the open, publicly promoting hydroxychloroquine dozens of times in public statements and speeches. He continued to push the drug after every medical expert in his own administration told him that was wrong to do. He continued to push the drug even after studies showed it was worthless.
All that's left to do is explain this strange behavior. Perhaps you'll take the option of Brett, who justifies Trump's election lies by claiming he "sincerely" believes his own delusions. Brett thinks that launders the criminality out of trying to get state officials to alter their vote count - Trump's "sincere belief"....
You can try that, Toranth; please give it a shot : Trump "sincerely" believed he could pick a drug at random and tell the country it was the end of the pandemic. That might work. But isn't it amazing how often Trump's sleaze is excused by his bootlicking followers conceding DJT's delusional gross stupidity?
Sorry, Toranth; Trump is an imbecile, but not to that degree. His bizarre promotion of hydroxychloroquine is actually easy to explain: A lifelong huckster doing another hustle. After all, isn't selling "miracle cures" just like selling real estate?
Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.
That's pretty specious reasoning.
I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with David.
FWIW, I think he is right. We do stats for a reason. There are no shortage of people who swear that their copper bracelet or magnets helps their arthritis, believe in astrology or whatever. Heck, you can do rigorous controlled trials and placebos work.
So someone saying 'I know people who took ivermectin and their covid got better' is pretty weak evidence unless you compare the number of people whose covid got better after ivermectin to the number whose covid got better after eating garlic/having their name put on a prayer list/whatever. Humans are way too good at seeing patterns in random data.
It's a continuation of the Simpsons' quote.
Thanks! Not having a TV makes me a cultural illiterate.
Thanks, Sweetie.
"Lisa, I want to buy your rock"
(The average Volokh Conspiracy fan -- who doesn't like humorous observations concerning hayseeds -- should probably avoid everything related to the Simpsons.)
This ruling is clearly unfair as it uses a law that was passed by Republican majorities (in both the Ohio House and Senate) and praised in article from the National Review. The law was intended to be used by conservative doctors opposed to actions favored by liberals. Here, the opposite is occurring. The judge should have recognized this and ruled against the doctor.
A fair-minded person might say that this is indeed a wise law, and that the result reached here was correct and just, just as it would be in a situation where a depressed man demands an assisted suicide, a woman demands an abortion or a trans teen demands a sex change from a doctor who is religiously, philosophically or ethically opposed to doing so.
Judges can not interpret laws based on what political enemies the law was meant to hurt. They must take the text of the law as is.
Hopefully they will impeach and disbar the judge for not understanding the intent of the law.
The often-asked question is why not let a patient take a treatment they chose. The concern is that patients may chose an untested treatment in favor of a better treatment. This can especially true if the standard treatment has unpleasant side effects, like chemo or amputation.
The best of both world is to give the patient so leeway. They can take an untested remedy, provided it has no negative consequences, along with a standard treatment. Aaron Rodgers reported taking Ivermectin but was also on antibody therapy. Now he was outpatient, and I am guessing it was not his doctor giving him Ivermectin.
"The concern is that patients may chose an untested treatment in favor of a better treatment."
Sure. People can make bad decisions - they might choose a bad spouse, or a bad major or career. They might invest with Bernie Madoff, of for that matter any high fee advisor. We let them make those decisions, though, when they alone bear the consequences.
If I have cancer, I can choose to have conventional chemo, or essential oils, or just do nothing. Those are my choices to make.
Ivermecrin is Rx and OTC.
My wife was taking prescription medicines and using other over the counter medicines. Once I took her OTC to the pharmacy counter when I picked up her Rx, the pharmacist asked me if they were both for the same person. I said yes. He informed me that there were interactions between the Rx and that OTC (a common antacid Tagament). People need to have their Rx and OTC meds vetted for contraindications and interactions. I thought of all the times I took my wife to the clinic and all they asked to see were her prescribed meds.
My mother had something like that happen; She was on some medication, I don't recall what, and while in another state had a treatment prescribed for nail fungus. Shortly after the pharmacy chain made a major effort to find her, (Including contacting presumed relatives to get a phone number!) because of a nasty interaction that might have caused heart damage.
It's always worth sticking with one pharmacy chain for all your prescriptions, because they routinely do this sort of cross checking.
" They can take an untested remedy, "
. . .and they can do it at home, on a sidewalk, or on a park bench. A legitimate hospital should not waste scarce resources on people with self-inflicted problems who wish to consult astrological charts (or worse) for treatment pointers.
Ivermectin and hydroxycloroquine HQC have been approved for decades by the Federal Food and Drug Administration FDA for human use. Both are on the World Health Organization WHO list of essential medicines. Ivermectin is not solely horse dewormer. HQC is not solely fish tank cleaner.
Both have multiple uses. Both when taken under a doctor's supervision are safe.
2-8 Apr 2020 I was in ICU for COVID, UTI, pneumonia; when discharged to home health care I prescribed 3 days HQC, 7 days cefdinir, 5 days doxycyclin.
WHO has found that (a) in third world countries, many people have undiagnosed or latent round worm infestations, (b) conventional approved COVID treatments may make these infestations bloom, so (c) WHO recommends ivermect with COVID treatments.
Yeah, I know, Dems will snark I was given Putin's Puppet's Poison fish tank cleaner and too bad I didn't die, and any patient taking or doctor giving Ivermectin or HQC needs be drug off to woke Gulags for re-education.
... I was prescribed ...
We need a five minute timed Edit option for typos.
Carl_N_Brown : "We need a five minute timed Edit option for typos"
I have suggested we all boycott this forum - bleeding-heat liberals and zombie-undead conservatives alike - until management caves to our demand for an edit function. Just a few days of tumbleweeds rolling thru empty comment sections and The Man will learn he can't oppress us any longer. Commenters of the world unite!
(My only fear is this Volokh guy will bring in scab commentators)
"heart" not "heat".....
I am glad to hear you recovered from a bad case of coronavirus infection.
Now I am rooting for you to overcome that bad case of clinger.