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S. Ct. Agrees to Hear Free Exercise Clause / Public High School Coach Prayer Case
From the Petition for Certiorari in the case, Kennedy v. Bremerton School Dist. (for the opinions below, see here and here):
Petitioner Joseph Kennedy lost his job as a football coach at a public high school because he knelt and said a quiet prayer by himself at midfield after the game ended. After considering an interlocutory petition in which Kennedy sought review of the lower courts' refusal to grant him a preliminary injunction, four members of this Court observed that "the Ninth Circuit's understanding of the free speech rights of public school teachers is troubling and may justify review in the future," but concluded that this Court should stay its hand until the lower courts definitively determined the reason for Kennedy's termination.
The statement also noted that Kennedy had a then-unaddressed claim under the Free Exercise Clause. On remand, the lower courts found—and the school district ultimately agreed—that Kennedy lost his job solely because of his religious expression. Yet the Ninth Circuit nevertheless ruled against him again. The court not only doubled down on its "troubling" free-speech reasoning, which transforms virtually all speech by public-school employees into government speech lacking any First Amendment protection, but reached the remarkable conclusion that, even if Kennedy's prayer was private expression protected by the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses (which it undoubtedly was), the Establishment Clause nevertheless required its suppression. The court denied en banc review over the objection of 11 judges.
The questions presented are:
1. Whether a public-school employee who says a brief, quiet prayer by himself while at school and visible to students is engaged in government speech that lacks any First Amendment protection.
2. Whether, assuming that such religious expression is private and protected by the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses, the Establishment Clause nevertheless compels public schools to prohibit it.
Here's the 2019 (pre-Justice-Barrett) statement by Justice Alito, joined by Justices Thomas, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh:
Petitioner Joseph Kennedy claims that he lost his job as football coach at a public high school because he engaged in conduct that was protected by the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. He sought a preliminary injunction awarding two forms of relief: (1) restoration to his job and (2) an order requiring the school to allow him to pray silently on the 50-yard line after each football game. The latter request appears to depend on petitioner's entitlement to the first — to renewed employment — since it seems that the school would not permit members of the general public to access the 50-yard line at the relevant time.
The key question, therefore, is whether petitioner showed that he was likely to prevail on his claim that the termination of his employment violated his free speech rights, and in order to answer that question it is necessary to ascertain what he was likely to be able to prove regarding the basis for the school's action. Unfortunately, the answer to this second question is far from clear.
On October 23, 2015, the superintendent wrote to petitioner to explain why the district found petitioner's conduct at the then-most recent football game to be unacceptable. And in that letter, the superintendent gave two quite different reasons: first, that petitioner, in praying on the field after the game, neglected his responsibility to supervise what his players were doing at that time and, second, that petitioner's conduct would lead a reasonable observer to think that the district was endorsing religion because he had prayed while "on the field, under the game lights, in BHS-logoed attire, in front of an audience of event attendees."
After two subsequent games, petitioner again kneeled on the field and prayed, and the superintendent then wrote to petitioner, informing him that he was being placed on leave and was forbidden to participate in any capacity in the school football program. The superintendent's letter reiterated the two reasons given in his letter of October 23. And the district elaborated on both reasons in an official public statement explaining the reasons for its actions.
When the case was before the District Court, the court should have made a specific finding as to what petitioner was likely to be able to show regarding the reason or reasons for his loss of employment. If the likely reason was simply petitioner's neglect of his duties — if, for example, he was supposed to have been actively supervising the players after they had left the field but instead left them unsupervised while he prayed on his own — his free speech claim would likely fail. Under those circumstances, it would not make any difference that he was praying as opposed to engaging in some other private activity at that time.
On the other hand, his free speech claim would have far greater weight if petitioner was likely to be able to establish either that he was not really on duty at the time in question or that he was on duty only in the sense that his workday had not ended and that his prayer took place at a time when it would have been permissible for him to engage briefly in other private conduct, say, calling home or making a reservation for dinner at a local restaurant.
Unfortunately, the District Court's brief, informal oral decision did not make any clear finding about what petitioner was likely to be able to prove…. The decision of the Ninth Circuit was even more imprecise on this critical point…. Here, although petitioner's free speech claim may ultimately implicate important constitutional issues, we cannot reach those issues until the factual question of the likely reason for the school district's conduct is resolved. For that reason, review of petitioner's free speech claim is not warranted at this time….
While I thus concur in the denial of the present petition, the Ninth Circuit's understanding of the free speech rights of public school teachers is troubling and may justify review in the future.
The Ninth Circuit's opinion applies our decision in Garcetti v. Ceballos (2006), to public school teachers and coaches in a highly tendentious way. According to the Ninth Circuit, public school teachers and coaches may be fired if they engage in any expression that the school does not like while they are on duty, and the Ninth Circuit appears to regard teachers and coaches as being on duty at all times from the moment they report for work to the moment they depart, provided that they are within the eyesight of students.
Under this interpretation of Garcetti, if teachers are visible to a student while eating lunch, they can be ordered not to engage in any "demonstrative" conduct of a religious nature, such as folding their hands or bowing their heads in prayer. And a school could also regulate what teachers do during a period when they are not teaching by preventing them from reading things that might be spotted by students or saying things that might be overheard.
This Court certainly has never read Garcetti to go that far. While Garcetti permits a public employer to regulate employee speech that is part of the employee's job duties, we warned that a public employer cannot convert private speech into public speech "by creating excessively broad job descriptions." …
What is perhaps most troubling about the Ninth Circuit's opinion is language that can be understood to mean that a coach's duty to serve as a good role model requires the coach to refrain from any manifestation of religious faith — even when the coach is plainly not on duty. I hope that this is not the message that the Ninth Circuit meant to convey, but its opinion can certainly be read that way. After emphasizing that petitioner was hired to "communicate a positive message through the example set by his own conduct," the court criticized him for "his media appearances and prayer in the BHS bleachers (while wearing BHS apparel and surrounded by others)." This conduct, in the opinion of the Ninth Circuit, "signal[ed] his intent to send a message to students and parents about appropriate behavior and what he values as a coach."
But when petitioner prayed in the bleachers, he had been suspended. He was attending a game like any other fan. The suggestion that even while off duty, a teacher or coach cannot engage in any outward manifestation of religious faith is remarkable….
While the petition now before us is based solely on the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment, petitioner still has live claims under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Petitioner's decision to rely primarily on his free speech claims as opposed to these alternative claims may be due to certain decisions of this Court.
In Employment Div., Dept. of Human Resources of Ore. v. Smith (1990), the Court drastically cut back on the protection provided by the Free Exercise Clause, and in Trans World Airlines, Inc. v. Hardison (1977), the Court opined that Title VII's prohibition of discrimination on the basis of religion does not require an employer to make any accommodation that imposes more than a de minimis burden. In this case, however, we have not been asked to revisit those decisions.
Note that the Title VII issue is now within the question presented on which the Supreme Court has just granted review; the Free Exercise Clause issue is, though the petition seems to call for applying existing Free Exercise Clause principles rather than for reversing Smith.
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To quote a comic strip, I forget which one, "as long as there are history tests, there will be prayer in public schools".
Of course, we seem to have stopped teaching history, so maybe that one got fixed.
The vile homosexual agenda is good in school. Kneeling for a minute gets you fired. All that wokism is PC. All PC is case you disgusting, vile, toxic occupation. The firing came from a Supreme Court decision. You toxic scumbags, 10 times more toxic than organized crime, are going to be rounded up.
Odds on how this will turn out?
They will let the man silently pray. Unless of course they can show the real motivation was making sure he was attending his responsibilities.
As a HS student of the early 70s, I assume the Fellowship of Christian Athletes is banned altogether, with membership grounds for termination of staff and expulsion of students. FCA kept many out of jail and in school in my era, when children lived in 2-parent households…
The First Amendment guarantees your right to assume anything you wish!
Except gender
The State loathes biologically intact natural families.
The state is a wholly owned subsidiary of the scumbag lawyer profession. The state is the vehicle of its rent seeking. It has to be rounded up and stopped, this vile toxic occupation. The lawyer profession is the enemy of all decency.
I wonder if there are any patterns or themes we see in the scumbag lawyer profession that we might could generalize to other problematic sectors of our society?
Pattern recognition is important.
Gosh, I wonder if there's a way to find a neutral recitation of the facts here, without convenient omissions and careful framing.
The litigants don't agree on the facts.
In their brief opposing cert, the respondent asserts
And in their brief, the petitioner counters
Why would the Court grant cert without first having these conflicting realities adjudicated? I can think of two reasons off the top of my head:
1) They (at least the four or more who voted for cert) believe the logic of the Ninth Circuit's decision would quash solitary, private speech even if it didn't in this case. And thus at least they needed to vacate that decision before remanding for further factual findings.
2) They want to reverse or greatly weaken Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe and permit much more public speech on religion than Establishment Clause jurisprudence currently allows.
"Why would the Court grant cert without first having these conflicting realities adjudicated?"
Since this is already on appeal from a grant of summary judgement how would the Supreme Court go about getting those conflicting realities adjudicated without granting cert?
A GVR still grants cert.
Yes, the Ninth Circuit left them no choice but to grant cert if they want to GVR for further fact finding. But the more I think about it, I think #2 is the more likely outcome, or perhaps a slight twist on how to achieve it. The Court very well might expand the notion of what constitutes private speech to include a prayer that attracts student listeners.
I think there is a third possibility here.
3) Summary Judgement was inappropriate on this record. To trial it must go.
One of Eugene's links is to the opinions on the denial for en banc review. Take a look at Judge Smith's table that compares Judge O'Scannlain's views of the facts versus Smith's views. Do these differences turn on factual matters suitable for trial? Or, are they opinions on how to interpret agreed upon facts?
I think it is the latter.
Well, this certainly provides a more realistic-sounding picture of what was actually happening than Eugene's account. Thanks.
Prof. Volokh is just lathering his loyal following of grievance-consumed, right-wing culture war casualties.
As usual.
We should probably be grateful he so busy riling his rubes that he seems to have diminished his imposition of partisan, viewpoint-driven censorship at the Volokh Conspiracy.
On one hand; I really support the general proposition that teachers (administrators, etc) should be able to hold onto their free speech rights. But, with the fact here, I am bothered by the fact that (a) the guy was in some version of an official school 'uniform,' and (b) only school personnel were allowed to be on the field at that time. If I saw the coach doing this, I'd certainly think the school was sanctioning (ie, supporting) this religious view.
Also, I presume that if a teacher is allowed to demonstrably pray in this way, I presume another coach would have an equal right to doven, or to spread out a prayer rug. Or to give the Nazi salute for that matter, if she was part of a religion that followed that noxious value system. All giving the appearance of the school's imprimatur.
If you allow one, I don't see how you'd be able to line-draw, nor how you'd be able to cherry-pick which viewpoints are legally permissible and which are not. I don't see how you get to a good solution here, so I'll be interested in reading what other people think the standard ought to be.
"...WERE part of a religion..."
#neverforgetthesubjunctive
It is hard to draw a line. I'm sure you'd agree that a coach wearing a crucifix, kippah, or hijab to a game ought to be protected, and on the other hand delaying the game for 15 minutes while the coach gave a sermon using the PA system would be not only unprotected but probably an establishment violation.
IMO a lot of these conflicts arise because there is a lot more government than contemplated in 1789. People complain that certain Islamic countries severely limit where churches can be built. Well, it's illegal to build a church on 85% of the land in Nevada, because it's federal land.
Expansive state, freedom of religion, no establishment of religion: pick two of the three.
I don't know exactly where to draw the line, but there's an issue when something is both prohibited and protected at the same time. It's even an issue when the boundaries touch without crossing, because there will always be someone who insists on dancing right near the line and darting their toes over now and then. There needs to be some slack space in between.
That's sort of a strange use of the word "illegal." It would be "illegal" to build a Chuck-E-Cheese or an Apple Store on that land either. It's generally illegal to build churches or anything else on land one doesn't own. Doesn't matter if it's federal land or Eugene Volokh's land.
The federal government could lease land to build a retail establishment, right? Can it lease land for a church's exclusive long-term use?
That's a new goal post than 'illegal.'
I think under current Supreme Court precedent, it probably not only could, but must, lease such land to churches on the same grounds that it leases such land for secular uses. And if SCOTUS hasn't expressly gone that far yet, this SCOTUS certainly would.
Yes, and that is a problem too. In general it is a problem when the government owns 85% of the land, not just for freedom of religion but also for freedom of enterprise etc.
Only when all land is exploitable will we be free.
Imagine instead the school coach was a Sikh, wearing a Sikh headdress. Would the school them be embracing Sikhism?
Youre only allowed to kneel for the blm god.
And by "allowed" you mean required.
Petitioner Joseph Kennedy lost his job as a football coach at a public high school because he knelt and said a quiet prayer by himself at midfield after the game ended.
This is a major misrepresentation of Kennedy's activities. Read the linked lower court opinions.
You're right. Kennedy ultimately did a good deal more than pray silently. The Ninth Circuit made much of theft that Kennedy pushed back publicly against the district when it tried to restrict his conduct. As the court put it, "Kennedy's attempts to draw nationwide attention to his challenge to BSD compels the conclusion that he was not engaging in private prayer, but was instead engaging in public speech of an overtly religious nature while performing his job duties." This strikes me as a bit of bootstrapping on the Ninth Circuit's part. After all, if we don't give hecklers a veto, why would would say someone acting within his rights suddenly forfeits those rights he raises his voice in response to heckling (or other suppressive efforts)?
Taking the panel at its own word, bootstrapping is what “compels” its conclusion. No amount of handwaving about what else the panel might have said or how bootstrapping wasn’t the “sole” or “primary” basis for its ruling is likely to carry the day at SCOTUS.
Assuming you are correct for the sake of argument, SCOTUS need not rely on Kennedy's attempts to draw nationwide attention to conclude he wasn't engaging in private prayer.
You are, of course, correct: A reviewing court endorse the rationale relied upon by earlier decisionmakers, just as it can discredit or altogether ignore that rationale and still reach the same result.
For example, in Masterpiece Cakeshop, if the Court had wanted to uphold Colorado’s determination that the baker had acted illegally in refusing to make the same-sex couple their requested cake, there were certainly ways to do so without relying on a commissioner’s earlier attempt to analogize the baker’s faith-based refusal to occasions when “[f]reedom of religion and religion has been used to justify all kinds of discrimination throughout history, whether it be slavery, whether it be the holocaust, whether it be—I mean, we—we can list hundreds of situations where freedom of religion has been used to justify discrimination. And to me it is one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use to—to use their religion to hurt others.” But the Court didn’t ignore the commissioner’s commentary, and that was because his rant evinced a level of hostility so pronounced as to “cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality of the Commission’s adjudication of [the baker’s] case.”
Bootstrapping might not signal hostility nearly that intense, but a judge’s reliance on any form of makeweight reasoning could reasonably trigger suspicion that he is perhaps a little too determined to reach a preferred outcome—as contrasted with an outcome that typically results from deliberations that are more measured, disciplined, and judicious. Smith’s suggestion that Kennedy crossed from constitutionally protected behavior to constitutionally impermissible behavior when he responded to efforts to suppress the former by trying "to draw nationwide attention to” the situation might never get mentioned in the opinion resolving this case, but I would be very surprised if the suggestion completed escaped the Justices' attention when considering whether to grant cert.
Advocates rarely concede that their case is a "close" one. Indeed, they often insist otherwise, even when they know better. This sort of posturing by lawyers is pretty low-risk, as judges will regard a case to be close or not based on their own assessment, not on how the lawyers hope to characterize it. Judges, on the other hand, tend to see closeness more readily--and not uncommonly, in my experience, quite incorrectly. Perhaps calling most of what they have to decide "close" is driven by judges' desire to pat themselves on the back or to justify their existence ("See what a tough job we have, and see how smart we must be to dope it all out?"). Except in unusual circumstances, such as when sanctioning a lawyer for making a frivolous argument (or castigating a lawyer for making a near-frivolous one), I can't recall a judge ever commenting on how close a case is *not*. In this case, I suspect M. Smith, J., of the Ninth Circuit will come to regret this passage in the opinion he authored for the panel: "Although there are numerous close cases chronicled in the Supreme Court's and our current Establishment Clause caselaw, this case is not one of them." Actually, it might well not be a close case--in which event, the forthcoming reversal will really sting.
So, if you're a government employee, Federal, State, or local, you can't pray in public?
I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but there seems to be something wrong here.
There's disagreement on whether he was praying privately by himself or with a group of students in his capacity as coach.
This seems to be the key.
Sounds like weasel words.
I also wondered about that. That particular use of language (which we must assume was intentional) really stands out.
"Gosh, when you intentionally frame the facts in a self-serving way, my intuitions tend to support your conclusion!"
Neither Alito nor the Petitioners can be counted on as providing a fair description of the facts here. Nor, apparently, can Eugene.
Interesting....how do you know that they aren't providing a fair description of the facts?
Alito is a notorious partisan. And a petitioner's going to frame facts in whatever way they can to support the writ.
Also - basic critical reading skills? Doesn't it seem preposterous that a coach's saying a quiet prayer to himself after a game got him fired? Doesn't it seem odd that a district would feel so strongly about it that this litigation would stretch out to the point of seeking Supreme Court review?
Others in the thread have helped fill in some details. It doesn't seem that the prayer in question was quite so "quiet" or "private" as Eugene's framing would make it appear. But no, I don't expect you to be much interested in seeking out the truth, here.
"And a petitioner's going to frame facts in whatever way they can to support the writ."
Indeed...both sides should be framing. Curious how you pick just one
"Doesn't it seem preposterous that a coach's saying a quiet prayer to himself after a game got him fired? Doesn't it seem odd that a district would feel so strongly about it that this litigation would stretch out to the point of seeking Supreme Court review?"
Seriously? We've had SCOTUS cases because a baker said he felt religiously uncomfortable making a cake, and recommended the buyers choose one of the 20 other shops in town that would happily do it. We've had the Obama administration take literal nuns to the SCOTUS because they felt having to pay for birth control was wrong. We've had minor church services in a house shut down due to COVID while mass BLM protests were encouraged.
Liberals have a hard on hating for religion, typically the Christian religion, and seek to stamp it out and down as much as possible. I would not be surprised at all if a coach said a short prayer in the middle of the field to himself, and the school used it as an excuse to fire him.
I would not be surprised at all if a coach said a short prayer in the middle of the field to himself, and the school used it as an excuse to fire him.
How would anyone know he did it?
Also? "Literal nuns . . . ?"
Well there is a problem with the way you are framing their recitation of the facts as biased. A lawyer, which I am not,, or someone who regularly reads a law blog should realize what that problem is.
At the summary judgment phase, which this is an appeal of, the court should assume all the facts are as the plaintiff alleges. This is of course because the court is ruling only on the law, not the facts, because there has not been a trial to do the fact finding.
You are welcome.
This is incorrect. A plaintiff's facts are assumed as true in order to determine whether they've stated a claim (the standard applied on a motion to dismiss). But summary judgment is appropriate only when there is no genuine dispute between the parties over the facts.
You're welcome.
You are wrong about that, but not as wrong as you were before.
A judge can and quite often does issue a summary judgment when facts are in dispute. The standard is taking the facts as alleged by the plaintiff does the plaintiff have a case? So the judge has to consider the facts as alleged by the plaintiff in issuing a summary judgment. And a judge can find summary judgment against the defendant to if under the facts stated by the defendant he still loses.
And as you acknowledge above, the facts are in dispute, so the correct standard in deciding whether to strike the summary judgment is do the facts as alleged by the plaintiff support the summary judgment, so those are the facts the courts assume, until there is an actual trial.
I mean, that's not really right. Setting aside that you're using plaintiff/defendant rather than movant/non-movant (which isn't wrong but is too specific), courts do not deal with "alleged" facts on summary judgment. They deal with established facts, not alleged ones. And for summary judgment, of course some facts can be in dispute; the issue is whether there are any material facts in dispute. If a party could prevail despite assuming the non-moving party's version is true, then the disputed fact by definition isn't material.
If there's a material fact in dispute, the court doesn't "assume" anything; it just denies summary judgment.
"Neither Alito nor the Petitioners can be counted on as providing a fair description of the facts here."
I would trust even less the respondent's description of the facts.
Certainly neither side's claims should be read uncritically. But I don't know why one would trust the respondent less.
Simon,
What Matthew write is correct. He did not say that one ought to distrust respondent (ie, that the average person should do that). All Matt did was admit that this is what *he* will do. Matt is terribly biased, is a million miles from being objective, and all he did was acknowledge this intellectual weakness. Such an admission is to be congratulated, not scorned.
Your point, IN GENERAL, is obviously the ideal. In the abstract, there is no reason at all to favor or disfavor how a plaintiff frames an issue vs how a defendant frames it [or vice versa] . . . although, of course, in any particular case, there might be a very logical reason to do so. (e.g., A person's history of dishonesty, an argument where it's impossible to discern a good-faith explanation for it, and so on.)
That's a weird tack to take, unless your point is specifically limited to this particular respondent and you have some reason to think they're liars. By definition, the respondent is the side who the lower courts found in favor of, either after trial or summary judgment. So why would you trust that side less than the one whose position was rejected by the lower courts?
because they are part of the government.
So was the appellant.
"So, if you're a government employee, Federal, State, or local, you can't pray in public? I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but there seems to be something wrong here."
That is because you are uninformed and stupid.
And, increasingly in modern America, irrelvant.
We’re gonna win, Artie. You ignorant progs are so arrogant you refuse to see that everything you do is a failure, and the world is always worse for it. Eventually people figure it out and will act accordingly. I sincerely hope you’re around when it happens.
You had better hope neither side's partisans win.
Yeah, the best case scenario for fascists is that they do win, and then rule for a time, before they collapse under the weight of their own corruption and widespread public disapproval. That's the thing about your nasty lot - they can't just do the right thing. They always let the power and money go to their head.
It can sometimes take a long time for that to happen - far too long. But for whatever reason the military dictatorships and personality cults seem to have longer longevity than the kind of regime the GOP are trying to build right now. Your figureheads aren't even starting out likable - they stink of corruption before they're even elected. You're just voting for them to "stick it to the libs." I guess we'll see how much you like it when they dispense with the need for your support, as well.
Your delusions of adequacy are quaint and silly.
Our nation continues to improve. More reason, tolerance, science, transparency, inclusiveness, fairness. Less unearned privilege, bigotry, superstition, ignorance, backwardness, abusive policing. Our can't-keep-up backwaters are emptying, which means fewer people are inflicted by rural dysfunction and failure. Medicine and technology are advancing. Our vestigial clingers are in retreat, hiding behind euphemisms ("traditional values," "religious values," "conservative values," "heartland," "colorblind,") instead of proudly proclaiming their bigotry, as was common a half-century ago.
Our remaining clingers are dispirited and disaffected; desperate and delusional; defeated and defensive. They bluster, sometimes, mostly about how they will reclaim illusory good old days, but they comply with the preferences of the triumphant liberal-libertarian mainstream, victors in the American culture war, which is not entirely over but has been settled.
Guys like I Callahan get to whine about it as much as they like, and Prof. Volokh is welcome to continue to whip the culture war casualties who are his followers into a sputtering lather, but conservatives will continue to toe the line established by others in modern America, delaying progress for a bit when they can.
The 9th Circuit (and some leftists) would probably be happy with prohibiting public employees from praying anywhere at any time. The Soviet Union tried that. I think the People’s Republic of China and the People’s Republic of Korea still try that.
Wrong. China appears to allow some religious activities…but some religions may be more equal than others.
Well, China needs the religious activists...as a source of human body parts for transplant.
Dude went out on the fifty yard line while people were still in the stands to make a big show of it. Little different from if he'd done it on stage during an assembly. Color me unsympathetic to the idea the school administrators were just really determined to crush an inoffensive and truly private activity because they hate Christians. He was using his job to grandstand in full public view.
He was using his job to grandstand in full public view.
Nifty mind reading abilities you exhibit. Is that a learned talent, or are your parents Gypsy's?
Did you read the accounts of his conduct, you bigoted right-wing loser?
There's also a factual dispute about if he was encouraging students to join in his performative religiosity. If so, the school not only had the right to stop him, they had an obligation to.
No, they didn’t.
Apart from the constitutional issues in this case, I wonder how Mr. Kennedy, a professed Christian, reconciles his public displays of piety with the words pf Jesus:
I say he gets a pass on the Bible violation. Since it's not self-consistent (even within Matthew, who later writes "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations...and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you") believers need to pick and choose. And thank god most choose to blow off Leviticus.
"I say he gets a pass on the Bible violation."
Ostensible adults arguing about fairy tales . . . this resembles a spirited discussion of whether anyone is more powerful than the Hulk; whether Superman could beat up Batman; whether Venom could beat up Superman; etc.
Interesting debates for children of all ages.
I brought it up because it bears on Mr.Kennedy´s sincerity.
His sincerity seems irrelevant in this case.
It’s very relevant, you ignorant bigot.
Neither reported opinion recounts any question concerning sincerity. The petition for certiorari does not mention any question concerning sincerity.
I Callahan, however, believes sincerity is "very relevant."
Is that (1) a Liberty or Ave Maria law degree talking, I Callahan, (2) something you think you remember from a discount homeschooling outline, (3) what you heard on Hannity or Carlson last night, or (4) the truth as whispered to you directly by sweet eight-pound, six-ounce, sweet newborn infant baby Jesus?
I recommend you refrain from trying to explain your stupid comment, I Callahan. This can only get worse for you.
It may become relevant if the case reaches a jury.
How could that develop? His boorish conduct and abuse of position have been challenged but not, so far as I can determine from (incomplete) review of the record, sincerity.
I thought of this exact same thing during the first March to the Senate by Representatives, carrying their solemn religious artifacts.
Interesting. Yet if the religious have proven anything it's that they're inconsistent
How will the Court balance judiciously the non-practice of religion with whatever religiosity they plan to promote? Or am I too cynical? If there is an aspiring second-stringer on the team, should he maybe let himself be seen praying to get a chance at a starting spot?
When the Court inevitably concludes that the RFRA and First Amendment protect a Christian's right to discriminate against LGBT people, I hope to be able to exercise my own, sincere moral belief that Christians are all primarily hypocritical assholes, so that I can then discriminate against them in employment, housing, etc.
Professor Volokh....Is there any video footage of what actually happened? To me, that would go a long way in understanding what exactly happened here. I figure somebody with a smartphone has a digital file? Facebook?
Prof. Volokh — relying on his SelectiveOutrageOMatic (model 1950) — sticks with the plaintiff’s version, because clingers gonna cling.
So far as their betters permit, that is.
That's what this is all about, isn't it? What their betters permit?
Yet their betters, The People, wrote a constitution saying what powers they would have, and what powers they would not, because they knew these self-described "betters" were power hungry, fraudulent weasels who can lie convincingly and have mysteriously rapidly growing fortunes, and need to be constrained.
Anti-government cranks -- pillar of movement conservatism -- are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Casualties. I don’t think you know what that word means.
Losers. Right-wingers who are butthurt to the point of incessant whimpering because of all of this damned progress, tolerance, science, modernity, reason, and education in modern America, in this case.
DNFTT.
IIRCC
The conflict didn't boil over until Players started to join the coach
He would go a say a silent prayer after the post game traditions were over.
Then a player joined, then several joined, and I believe even the players from the other team joined.
When it was just the coach, nothing much happened. But when it became popular, it had to end.
Lost, is the real fact that no religion was being established.
I disagree. Once the players joined, the coach was now leading them in prayer as an employee rather than engaging in private speech. Moreover, there was a coercive impact on the players to join in. However, I expect 5 or 6 votes for your viewpoint from SCOTUS.
In addition to not liking that outcome, what also bothers me is the claim that permitting the school to stop these prayers implies the school could stop private prayer at lunchtime by a teacher because it was viewed by students. That's a highly unpersuasive basis for ruling against the school.
The harder the conservatives push on this, the more severe -- and sooner -- the backlash imposed by the liberal-libertarian modern American mainstream.
In a nation becoming less religious (and less rural, and less White, and less bigoted, and less backward), one might expect religious believers to try to shape a world in which outsiders are treated with respect. But the gullibility naturally associated with superstition seems to draw advocates of religious privilege toward a legal system in which minority views will encounter less respect.
The same rules used to provide special privilege for religion will be used to deny special privilege to religion.
People will, I hope, be able to believe as they wish. But it is difficult to envision superstition-based exemption from generally applicable laws as the American future, and those who have come to rely on unwarranted privilege may -- having overplayed their hand -- have every speck of it stripped away by the predictable backwash.
The questions presented in the grant of cert address only the narrow case of "brief, quiet prayer" by a school employee while at school and visible to students.
That doesn't seem to give Kennedy a great chance of prevailing at the Supreme Court on the larger issue of if he could be dismissed for leading a prayer at a school event - esp. where participation could be viewed as coercive.
From the grant:
It seems that this was granted cert just to potentially trim back what at least four Justices viewed as an over expansive Ninth Circuit ruling.
I too at first thought that an over expansive Ninth Circuit ruling might be the problem. However, the ruling went out of its way to say the coach had a right to engage in quite prayer by himself while at school and visible to the students.
My understanding that Dearborne Michigan public school provide a room for Muslim students to practice daily prayers. Is this true?
Doesn't this establish a religion?
That sounds problematic if the room is designated as a Muslim room or a chapel. If it's just room for privacy twice a day...meh
Would they honor a similar request for students of any other religious bent who requested it? If so, it seems fine.
Haven't the courts upheld that if a school allows, for example, a Robotics Club or a Chinese Checkers Club to form and use school facilities during lunch that they must do the same for those who wish to form a Christian or Mormon Club?
What if the coach led a prayer to the Horned One? Or Allah? Or Thor? Or Caitlyn Jenner? Jesus is a man who wore a dress and hung around a bunch of dudes and didn’t like poontang…not my bag, baby.
A Satanist group informed the school they would also have a religious ceremony on the field if the coach was permitted to pray. And if the coach's speech was private, they would have a constitutional right to do so unless the school could thread the needle of allowing employee private speech without opening a public forum. But with students and others from the general public and media joining in, that's not a needle that likely could be threaded.
I watch a lot of shows about making England a country and I’ve read a lot about Andrew Jackson and Manifest Destiny…when creating a country you want common culture, common language, and hopefully physical barriers for borders. Christian conservatives that push Christianity are actually weakening the nation because we don’t have a common religion and we never will. I wish we had a common religion because in 2022 religion just isn’t that important…but we don’t and Christians need to understand protecting their hobby shouldn’t be a national priority.
Conservatives who push aggressive, special privilege for right-wing Christianity are strengthening this country over the long term by arranging increasing preference for reason and science over superstition and dogma. That trend is established, obvious, and overdue.
It may take a bit more time for modernity to reach Alabama, West Virginia, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Wyoming, and a few other straggling states.
Cremmington, I have been reading a biography of Madison. The author says that early in the 1780s Madison began ruminating on his famous theme of factions. One conclusion among many—but one which Madison pursued actively—was that the established Episcopalian religion of Virginia was bad for politics. He thought religious uniformity was conducive to political stasis. When a move came to dis-establish the Episcopalians (partly with Madison's connivance—it was his first significant foray into politics), Madison drew up a petition against funding the Episcopalians, and circulated it anonymously among Presbyterians who lived west of the Blue Ridge. Madison was neither pro-Presbyterian, nor anti-Episcopalian, he was just pro-diversity, because he thought that would strengthen, not weaken, the public life of Virginia.
That agrees with your comment, so I thought I would mention it.
What if the coach led a prayer to the Horned One?
But the coach was not leading prayer. The coach was alone. Others came close. I think the prayers were silent.
It appears that back in 2019, there might have been an alternative explanation for firing the coach having nothing to do with religion, perhaps that a suspended coach, like any ordinary attendee, doesn’t belong in mid-field wearing an official uniform and creating an impression of being part of the game. But the 9th Circuit appears to have clarified matters in a way that discarded the alternative explanation.
I have to say, given the warning shot that the Supreme Court gave last time, you would think that the school’s lawyers would have done everything they could to take the hint and advance the alternative explanation for what happened.
From the school’s point of view - and I would hope the conservatives on the court would be able to maintain enough objective neutrality to see the school’s point of view - the coach was suspended for foing something, and then from their poing of view he went out, while suspended, and did exactly the same thing.
Of course, it may legally have been not exactly the same thing, although you might have to be a lawyer trained in religion law to see the difference. He claimed that when suspended je was acting as a private citizen and merely by himself, and anything the students may have done to imitate what he did was due entirely their choice, not his leadership or official action.
This created a minefield for the school that the school may have needed a good lawyer to see and navigate through.
Several things that he did - walking on the field wearing his coach’s uniform, so that he looked like and gave students the impression he was the acting coach - could potentially have been actionable regardless of what he did while he was there. It would have been the school’s lawyer’s job to steer the school to focus on these parts of what annoyed them, not the leading the students in prayer part. In doing, while suspended, something that looked a lot like what he was suspended for, the coach was defying the school leasership’s authority.
But like a matador expertly manipulating a bull, the coach seems to have successfully enraged the school to dash unthinkingly into a trap, and perhaps enraged the Supreme Court to act just as reflexively to come to the coach’s defense.
The school board could, I think, have disciplined the coach here. But they had to think rationally and coolly about the legal issues. They needed to realize that once suspended the coach, now a private citizen, had stronger Free Exercise claims than before, and their Establishment Clause claims of his actions being official actions were likewise weaker. Even though he did more or less the same thing he was originally suspended for, the legal reasons for disciplining him now had to be totally different. And they had to be careful to say so in explaining their actions. They had to see the legal minefield he was leading them into and navigate it carefully.
while suspended, and did exactly the same thing. ..
Not exactly the same thing. Just a "work around" 😉
I wonder if any of the Justices will take this point of view. On the one hand, the coach has a legal point that will likely result in his winning here because the school’s stated grounds for disciplining him were not grounds they could constitutionally do. On the other hand, the coach’s actions are not so praiseworthy and the result, while forced by the school’s mistakes, is not necessarily the most just possible. The coach, in walking on to the field wearing his uniform, creating an appearsnce of acting in a leadership capacity, and drawing attention to himself, all while suspended, acted in a way a better informed and more savvy school could have disciplined him for independently of the religion element.
The case result is thus less a ringing defense of religious freedom for government employees acting on their own time than an instruction to future school boards to be very careful to consider the religious-liberty aspects of their actions in future disciplinary proceedings, and try to find a way to navigate around them so the employee is disciplined for some other aspect of what the employee did, and not the religious act itself.
This correct outcome of this case should be, I think, another Masterpiece Cakeshop, another Fulton. Not really a big win for religious liberty, but instead, a warning to governemnt officials not to do stupid and easily avoidable things when religion is involvrd. If they merely avoid doing something stupid, if they navigate things correctly and take care, they can achieve the result they want.
The most disgusting part of Volokh's view is that he thinks malicious doxing should NOT be a crime. Posting someone's public information for the purpose of harassing or intimidating them online should NOT be a crime, even if it leads to financial or emotional ruin for the victims. Eugene doesn't give two shits about the right of the victim to be FREE FROM HARASSMENT, he fights tooth and nail so that psychos, mentally ill pervs, stalkers can do whatever they want online to ruin peoples' lives in the false name of "Free Speech."
I have a hard time understanding which side Volokh is on. He is paid by Google behind the scenes to fight against laws that would force Google to delete harmful content to protect Americans' privacy online.
Volokh is nothing but pure evil.
Again, Eugene Volokh purposefully ignores the very frequent situation where the defendant has done something very bad to the plaintiff (cyber-harassment, cyberstalking, doxing, online bullying) and the plaintiff tries to bring a suit to protect him/herself. In this case, the plaintiff was FORCED to bring a suit given the defendant's outrageous behaviour, so why should the plaintiff NOT be allowed to proceed anonymously? To refuse to allow plaintiff to proceed anonymously would only deprive the plaintiff of his/her right to justice, and would let the perpetrator off the hook.
Why does Eugene Volokh never seem to consider that there are some very bad people in the world who should be brought to justice, and victims of their crimes deserve access to justice but also deserve to be protected at the same time? Volokh seems to only care about the rights of the so called "defendants", many who are truly malicious, vile, bastards, who deserve to be publicly shamed for their crimes (such as cyberharassment, doxing, cyberstalking). He only addresses one side of the argument (when defendants are innocent), but what about egregious cases where defendants SHOULD BE publicly shamed?
If you don't want a plaintiff to sue you in civil court, DON'T engage in questionable or harmful online conduct. Is it that difficult? Do criminals, mentally-ill psychos, pervs, and trolls deserve so much consideration for their interests?
Eugene never considers the rights of the victims, as usual.
For Eugene, it's perfectly ok if victims of cybercrimes commit suicide, that's not relevant for him.
Your speech rights stop at my nose, Eugene.
What does your nose have to do with listening?
You can't even be an intelligent troll. I hope that your life's value wasn't depending on that aspiration.
Then pass a law. Not every good policy is in the constitution.
Only abortion. It's definitely there.
It's the right to privacy, of which abortion is one part.
If you think there is a right to have public schools teach civics, make the argument.
The right to privacy. Also right there in black letters.
The secret special right to privacy that's just for abortions, but not for vaccinations, despite both being medical procedures.
This is such a bad argument. The Ninth Amendment is a thing that exists. The right to privacy is not the only fundamental right, either. But it's the only one you ignore the Ninth to yell about.
The right privacy covers a bunch of stuff, including not being forced to go to public school. And buttsex.
But you don't care about knowing actual things, only partisan things.
Sure it exists. But just for abortions apparently. Not for vaccinations.
Did you read my freaking post? The right to privacy is not the only fundamental right, either.
You really avoid learning things to an impressive amount.