The Volokh Conspiracy
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En Banc Sixth Circuit Splits 8-8 Over Bump Stock Ban
The district court decision upholding the ATF's conclusion that bump stocks constitute unlawful "machine guns" is upheld by an equally divided court.
In March, a divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit rejected a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms regulation declaring that bump stocks constitute illegal "machine guns" under federal law, overturning a district court ruling to the contrary. Among other things, the panel majority concluded that the ATF's interpretation was not eligible for Chevron deference. In June, the entire court granted a petition for rehearing en banc.
Yesterday, the full court affirmed the original district court judgment in Gun Owners of America v. Garland by an equally divided vote, without an opinion for the court.
Yet just because there was no opinion for the court does not mean there were no opinions. There were three. Judges White and Gibbons each delivered an opinion in support of affirming the district court. Judge White's opinion was joined by Judges Moore, Cole, Clay, and Stranch. Judge Gibbons' opinion was joined by Justice Moore, Cole. White and Stranch. [Judges Griffin and Donald apparently voted to affirm the district court as well, but did not join either opinion.]
Judge Murphy delivered a dissenting opinion, joined by Chief Judge Sutton and Judges Batchelder, Kethledge, Thapar, Bush, Larsen, and Nalbandian. (Senior Judge Batchleder participated because she had been on the original three-judge panel. Judge Readler was recused.)
Although many have interest in this case because it concerns bump stocks, the dueling opinions focused on questions of statutory interpretation and the application of Chevron deference. The judges disagreed over whether a bump stock qualifies as a "machinegun" under 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) and, insofar as the statutory language is ambiguous, whether the ATF's interpretation merits Chevron deference given (among other things) that unlawful machinegun possession is a criminal offense.
Here is the relevant statutory text, as summarized in Judge White's opinion:
Congress defined the term, "machinegun," to mean "any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger." 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). "Machinegun" also includes "the frame or receiver of any such weapon" as well as "any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person." Id.
In the view of at least six judges, a bump stock constitutes a "machinegun" under the best interpretation of this language. Five judges further concluded (as articulated in Judge White's opinion) that the ATF interpretation should be upheld under Chevron deference:
Chevron provides the standard of review, even though the law under consideration has criminal applications. Applying Chevron, Congress has not spoken to the precise question at issue and, after exhausting the traditional tools of statutory construction, § 5845(b) remains ambiguous. Because ATF's interpretation of § 5845(b) is a permissible construction of the statute and is reasonable, it is entitled to Chevron deference.
Judge White also argued that the rule of lenity was inapplicable and that, even if Chevron deference did not apply, ATF's interpretation should be accepted under Skidmore.
Judge Gibbons separate opinion agreed that Chevron can apply to statutes with criminal penalties, but that "Chevron application is unnecessary" here because the ATF's interpretation was "unambiguously the best interpretation" of the statute.
Judge Murphy's dissent took quite a different view of the statutory language and the applicability of Chevron. Here is how his opinion begins:
Since the early days of our Republic, it has been a bedrock legal principle that our government cannot criminalize conduct and send people to prison except through democratically passed laws that have made it through both Houses of Congress and been signed by the President. See United States v. Hudson, 11 U.S. 32, 34 (1812). Yet the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) has sought to ban "bump stocks" in a far different way: through a regulation adopted by a federal agency alone. BumpStock-Type Devices, 83 Fed. Reg. 66,514 (Dec. 26, 2018) ("Bump-Stock Rule"). By an equally divided vote, our court affirms a decision rejecting a legal challenge to the ATF's Bump-Stock Rule. I must respectfully dissent from this judgment. Nothing in Congress's two relevant statutes delegates to the ATF such broad power to expand a crime's scope through this sort of regulatory lawmaking.
In 1986, Congress amended the Gun Control Act of 1968 to make it a crime to possess a "machinegun," 18 U.S.C. § 922(o)(1), a term defined in the National Firearms Act of 1934, 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). Gun Owners of Am., Inc. v. Garland, 992 F.3d 446, 450–51 (6th Cir. 2021). For years, the ATF asserted that private parties could lawfully possess the bump stocks at issue in this case because these devices did not fall within Congress's "machinegun" definition. Bump-Stock Rule, 83 Fed. Reg. at 66,516. So Americans bought millions of dollars' worth of bump stocks. Id. at 66,547. Then the ATF changed its position. In the Bump-Stock Rule, the ATF agreed that the possession of bump stocks had been lawful in the past but asserted that the devices would become illegal "machineguns" on the rule's effective date. Id. at 66,525. There thus can be no doubt that the Bump-Stock Rule creates a new crime.
Judge Batchelder's panel opinion persuasively explained that neither the Gun Control Act nor the National Firearms Act gives the ATF the power to expand the law banning machine guns through this legislative shortcut. Gun Owners, 992 F.3d at 454–74. I write to add a few more thoughts on why bump stocks are not "machineguns" under these laws and why we cannot fall back on "Chevron deference" to save the ATF's rule. See Chevron, U.S.A., Inc. v. Nat. Res. Def. Council, Inc., 467 U.S. 837 (1984). Many people, I suspect, would not understand why anyone would want to own a bump stock, a device that helps a person shoot semiautomatic rifles at rapid rates approaching those of automatic weapons. But this case has nothing to do with the policy debate over whether Congress should have banned bump stocks after the tragic Las Vegas shooting in 2017. Despite the introduction of multiple bills, Congress opted not to pass such legislation. And while the burdensome legislative process may seem "unworkable" in today's polarized age, it is a core component of our separation of powers designed to protect the liberty of all Americans—not just bump-stock owners. INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919, 959 (1983). Whether one favors or disfavors a policy banning bump stocks, we should all be concerned with the way in which the federal government has enacted that policy into law.
In the course of his dissent, Judge Murphy devotes some time to critiquing the opinions of other federal circuit courts that have upheld the ATF's bump stock ban.
The circuit courts that have upheld the Bump-Stock Rule have not suggested that the ATF's contrary view "is the better reading of the statute." Guedes, 920 F.3d at 30. Indeed, they have not even felt the need to ask which is the better reading. Id. They have instead held that they must review the ATF's reading under Chevron's "two-step" approach. Id. at 17–28; Aposhian v. Barr, 958 F.3d 969, 979–84 (10th Cir. 2020). At step one, these courts find that "automatically" and "single function of the trigger" are sufficiently ambiguous to require courts to defer to the ATF's reading. Aposhian, 958 F.3d at 988–89; Guedes, 920 F.3d at 29–31. At step two, they hold that the ATF's reading is "permissible." Aposhian, 958 F.3d at 984–88; Guedes, 920 F.3d at 31–32.
I find three problems with this approach. First, the courts justify their use of Chevron with irrelevant cases that interpret statutes expressly delegating power to an agency to enact criminal regulations. Second, the courts wrongly expand Chevron's domain by holding that Congress impliedly delegated to the Attorney General the power to interpret a criminal law merely because it gave him a general authority to enact regulations. Third, even under Chevron's regime, the courts improperly find ambiguity without attempting to figure out the statute's meaning.
This portion of Judge Murphy's opinion highlights that, although all three federal circuit courts to consider the question have upheld the ATF's bump stock ban, judges have split over the reasons why, and have adopted different approaches to the applicability and application of Chevron.
Judge Murphy's dissent concludes:
By continuously firing at rapid speeds with one activation of the trigger, machine guns can inflict great harm in short periods. And no doubt many people believe that rifles equipped with bump stocks share the same dangerous traits that led Congress to ban machine guns. Bump-Stock Rule, 83 Fed. Reg. at 66,520. So even though these newer devices might not fall "within the letter" of the statutory "machinegun" ban, courts may be tempted to treat them as covered anyway because they fall within its underlying "spirit." Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 143 U.S. 457, 459 (1892). In a country with a fluid separation of powers between the branches of government, this judicial approach of enlarging a statute through "equitable" interpretation rather than legislation might not be problematic. See John F. Manning, Textualism and the Equity of the Statute, 101 Colum. L. Rev. 1, 8 (2001). In our country, however, the judiciary has long had a narrower duty: "to apply, not amend, the work of the People's representatives." Henson v. Santander Consumer USA Inc., 137 S. Ct. 1718, 1726 (2017). This duty leaves the policy debate over whether to ban bump stocks where it belongs—with the legislative branch accountable to the people. And since that branch has not seen fit to ban bump stocks or give a federal agency the power to do so, I must respectfully dissent from our judgment affirming the district court's decision in this case.
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In before all the left-of-center people saying the eight votes to uphold the lower court are all wrong because of reliance interests.
What are you talking about???
I would think that would be obvious: the fallback liberal position on Roe/Casey, if one can't make a strong argument that abortion is actually a constitutional right, is that the cases shouldn't be overturned because of reliance interests.
So he's sardonically pointing out that liberals should be arguing against this new ATF interpretation of the machine gun rule on the grounds that the interpretation that held sway for decades has engendered reliance interests on the part of gun owners.
Honest question here. I don't own a gun. I don't participate in gun culture. For those in the know, is it normal to give semiautomatic weapons to children and, if so, is there any cut-off age at all where it would be inappropriate?
Honest question here. I don't own an electric nail gun . I don't participate in electric nail gun culture. For those in the know, is it normal to give semiautomatic nail guns to children and, if so, is there any cut-off age at all where it would be inappropriate?
See how silly that sounds? A firearm is a tool, nothing more. Training someone to use the tool responsibly is more important than the age of the user.
Uh...okay. I'm trying to figure out the Michigan kid. I assume his parents thought he was sane. I believe the pistol was given to him as gift. Is that normal? I only got pellet guns until I was 18.
"I assume his parents thought he was sane."
Parents are often willfully ignorant of their child's flaws.
I think they knew bit did not want to know.
My daughter will get a pellet gun on her 5th birthday. That will also likely turn into a .22LR a few years after that. Pretty normal round my parts I would wager.
Us kids in the 70's and 80's achieved our NRA marksman awards from using 22s that we borrowed from the range. Our dads loaned us their shot guns and long rifles on hunting trips. I don't recall any kid being given a 9mm pistol. Is that now typical?
"Us kids in the 70's and 80's achieved our NRA marksman awards from using 22s that we borrowed from the range. Our dads loaned us their shot guns and long rifles on hunting trips. I don't recall any kid being given a 9mm pistol. Is that now typical?"
No. The Michigan kid's parents are morons. Also there is other evidence that they actively encouraged rule breaking and violence.
Whether or not that is sufficient to sustain the charges filed against the parents, I don't know.
"Also there is other evidence that they actively encouraged rule breaking and violence."
I have not seen any evidence that they encouraged violence whatsoever. Care to share your source on that?
There are some common-sense guidelines that apply to both weapons and tools: Make sure the person has enough bodily strength and coordination to safely handle the object. Supervise them while they are learning safe use rules. Consider the environment before letting them carry unsupervised.
I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of a 15 year old publicly carrying a semi-auto pistol, trained, sane, or otherwise. Don't get me wrong, If I had a pistol fresh out of middle school I would have been the coolest SOB in my class.
Semi-auto absorbs some recoil and are easier to control than single shot guns, whether they are revolvers, bolt actions, or what have you.
If you really were knowledgeable about guns, you'd know that and be more worried about kids with single shot weapons.
The mechanics of firing isn't the point. Are we advocating arming children while they are in public?
You specifically called out semi-auto. I corrected you. Are you advocating unclarity?
Semi-auto pistols. Should children be arming themselves in public with them? I don't think my question is that hard to interpret.
Plenty of 15 year olds are arming themselves and killing other 15 year olds. Most of them are Black inner city kids in a criminal culture, but no one seem too concerned about them or their victims.
And it's a hard question to answer directly, thus the subterfuge. You answer one way, and you're advocating arming children. You answer the other way and you collapse the gun industry narrative. Good luck man. I don't envy your position at the moment.
So the question in your OP wasn't honest. You have an axe to grind and you were hoping to get someone to respond so that you might deploy it.
Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf — Hobie asks a serious question. You deliver a gun pedant response. Gun pedantry is fundamentally unserious. It's the kind of thing which insists that a 1911 Colt is not an, "automatic," despite generations of military users who referred to it by that term.
His ignorance about semi-auto shows his question was not serious. He used "semi-auto" as a scary buzzword. A serious question would have simply said "pistol" or "gun". The fact that you think using a scary word makes the question more serious shows you too are more interested in a scary hypothetical than a real answer.
When the 1911 first came out, in 1890, there weren’t any machine guns, so it was referred to as “automatic” But by the 1940’s, it became necessary to distinguish between, semi-automatic, sub-machine (a fully automatic that shoots pistol cartridges), and machine gun (fully automatic), and select fire.
So nomenclature which at one time was sufficient to describe a limited set of guns becomes too in exact to clearly describe what one is referring to. But certainly a 1911 Automatic is adequate, but not just Automatic.
At one time a pistol referred to any handgun, now it almost exclusively refers to a semiautomatic handgun, with revolver reserved for, well, revolving chambered handguns.
But it’s too inexact to refer to a semiautomatic pistol as an automatic without further qualification.
That's a rather fractured history. The 1911 didn't come out in 1890, or even 1900, and even then people in the crafter referred to them as semi-automatic.
The modern machine gun was introduced in 1884 by Maxim:
"The Maxim gun is a recoil-operated machine gun invented in 1884 by Hiram Stevens Maxim (later Sir Hiram); the weapon became the first automatic firearm in production by Vickers and also known as the first automatic firearm in the world,[2] which used .303 British ammunition and a recoil-operating firing system, and required water cooling."
re: "Hobie asks a serious question"
No, he/she didn't. Though in fairness, this did not become obvious until later in the discussion thread than the point at which you jumped in to reply.
15 year olds are not allowed to publically carry a gun unless they are hunting and supervised. They are definitely not allowed to take them to school.
But what they are allowed to to, and what their parents let them do, and what they actually do are different things.
"15 year olds are not allowed to publically carry a gun unless they are hunting and supervised."
I think that is going to depend on the state and a lot of details.
For example, see RCW 9.41.042.
See, for example, item (6). So when 14 year old me got a 22 rifle for Xmas and a cross town friend said his Dad was taking him to the range and did I want to come along to sight it in, it was perfectly legal for me to put a box of 22 in my pocket and walk across town with the rifle in the crook of my arm.
(or would have been, I was living in another state at the time, where it was also legal).
All my nail guns are pneumatic, and I wouldn’t hesitate to have a competent 15 year old, although I had to demonstrate to my son why you should keep your off hand at least 4” away when you’re shooting 20d nails into a 2x4. Even that last 1/4 inch of the nail going into your finger when it hits a knot and makes a right turn can be painful, or so I’ve heard.
But I only let my wife use the 2 1/2 finish nailer.
My father in law managed to put a roofing nail in his shin by holding the trigger down while moving the gun. Pneumatic, and the hose was tangled - improper use, yo! But, I can personally attest that it's pretty common when roofing: it's way quicker to put the nails in that way.
Fortunately, it went in between the fibia and tibia, didn't break anything, and the only lasting damage was to his ego. It sure seemed to hurt at the time, though.
Finger off the trigger unless the nail gun is aimed at an intended target.
Depends on the child. My kids have been shooting. Look up "Autumns armory" on yt.
But a kid that is clearly sociopathic, no.
Interesting videos. There's a whole other world out there.
Heck, the 4H shooting clubs take kids as young as 8, and handle a half million every year.
That's a LOT of "children" with "semiautomatic weapons" running around, without a spot of mass murder from any of them.
first gun was a 22 rifle at age 10(yes, "Semi Automatic"), 22 revolver at age 12(managed to never shoot anyone, unlike Alec Baldwin, then a 30:06 bolt action rifle age 13, , 12 gauge shotgun age 14, and a .357 magnum revolver age 16 before graduating highschool, first real Semiauto pistol was a Taurus 9mm (Beretta 92 knock off) in College...
Frank "Still haven't shot anyone" Drackman
Amazingly neither have I, though when I caught me now ex in bed with my then best friend, I was sorely tempted for a moment.
I kept the guns, and got rid of the wife and friend.
It certainly would have made for an interesting defense, though.
Regarding Baldwin. Someone pointed a camera at him, which caused him to be subjectively frightened. Self defense. See how that works?
He claims he never pulled the trigger, friend. Self defense requires pulling the trigger.
It's self defense if a reasonable person believes they would be in fear of death or grievous bodily harms. Kinda a level of being objectively frightened.
Point a camera at a lot of people, they start preening, posing, checking between their teeth for broccoli, blushing, looking coy
I, as do many of the people around me here, own multiple weapons, two revolvers, a pump shotgun, and a semi-auto "assault rifle". I don't think I ever drew a distinction before. Different tools, for different jobs. I know the AR-15 is one of the most popular hunting rifles in America, and in most states you can get a junior license at 12, so presumably plenty of kids are carrying those.
On many nice days, particularly leading up to deer season I see and hear lots of people, of all ages, either shooting in their backyards, walking down the road to go to either a neighbor, or the rifle club at the end of the road carrying some sort of weapon, or toting one or more out to a vehicle. Frankly I would find it a strange home that did not have at least a few guns. I'm probably the odd one on the road since although I do shoot, I don't hunt. I just don't like the taste. My guns are for fun, and for home defense.
Nationwide there are junior league "3 Gun" competitions, where competitors use an AR platform, a semi-auto pistol, and either a pump, or a semi-auto shotgun in a proficiency course.
Guess I'm trying to understand what difference the action mechanism of the weapon makes?
Currentsitguy, you are all over the lot. You parade gun knowledge. You confess you don't kill anything with your guns. Then conclude with a question proving you are one among many who suppose they are knowledgeable about guns, but who actually know too little about them to be safe custodians of the right to bear arms.
A lot of words saying nothing. He asked a question, I tried to answer and asked for clarification. The fact that he admitted having little knowledge indicates he is in no position to have any opinion, let alone an informed one
Which question are you asking? Is it normal for parents to give their children (semi auto hand)guns? Or is it whether or not a 15 year old should be carrying a pistol unsupervised in public? Decide on the question you want to try to play "gotcha" with and I'll answer it.
Did the ATF even argue Chevron? I thought that they did not, similar to other circuits like the 10th as I recall- some of the circuits have applied Chevron even though the ATF did not argue it.
As I understand, both the .gov and Aposhian argued Chevron did not apply in the 10th circuit case. It would appear the judges did not find the .gov argument compelling, so they used Chevron on their own in order to achieve their desired result. That is really what the Aposhian case the USSC has distributed is about, can judges apply Chevron when both sides say it doesn't apply.
"by a single function of the trigger."
I guess that phrase is even more hard to understand than "shall not be infringed".
A semi-automatic rifle with a bump stock (or a rubber band) is a semi-automatic rifle, not a machine gun.
Science.
Oh, snap. Now you've done it.
Or just an easily-trained finger. It only took me 3 or 4 magazines to get good enough to not want to waste ammo on something so simple.
That's the thing. If you need a bullet hose to hit the target, you're doing it wrong. Not to say anyone has the right to determine what I "need".
Truth be told... if someone where shooting at me I would probably prefer they mag dump. Muzzle rise over my head, terrible accuracy, and run out of ammo quickly.
I would really prefer to not be shot at at all... but would rather spray-and-pray versus someone knowing they are about to put a whole in me because they are doing it right.
Love the phrase "bullet hose". LOL!
Murphy seeks to be begging the question.
He asserts that bump stocks do not turn semi-automatic weapons into machine guns, and then criticizes the *judges on the other side for legislating:
And no doubt many people believe that rifles equipped with bump stocks share the same dangerous traits that led Congress to ban machine guns. Bump-Stock Rule, 83 Fed. Reg. at 66,520. So even though these newer devices might not fall "within the letter" of the statutory "machinegun" ban, courts may be tempted to treat them as covered anyway because they fall within its underlying "spirit." ......This duty leaves the policy debate over whether to ban bump stocks where it belongs—with the legislative branch accountable to the people.
But that's not what they seem to have said. Rather they said the definition of machine gun is broad enough to reasonably include bump stocks.
*There being no majority or minority I wonder what is the proper term to refer to judges on one side or other of the case. Winners and losers?
"Rather they said the definition of machine gun is broad enough to reasonably include bump stocks."
Yes, they've said that. They're either lying, or so hostile to the people who owned these, that they can't be objective. Administrations that were wildly hostile to gun ownership couldn't bring themselves to claim that, previously. It took being shameless, too.
And even if it were legal, it was a damned taking.
For the umpteenth time, Brett, you find it impossible to believe that anyone you disagree with is arguing in good faith.
When a court ignores the plain language and facts to make up their own meaning and desired outcome, then it's quite reasonable to believe they are not acting in good faith.
For example, when a weapon that fires one shot per pull of the trigger is modified by a device that does not change the weapon's firing process, so it still fires one shot per pull of the trigger, then claiming that the description of trigger action actually applies to the intent of the user (not the physical "trigger" device) is just straight up dishonest.
Toranth, perhaps you are straight up dishonest, because you limit your interpretation of, "trigger," to one small piece of a firing mechanism in which multiple pieces working in concert are actually used to trigger each shot. And all those other pieces are working in exactly the same way they work in fully automatic weapons. Or maybe you aren't dishonest, but just someone motivated to try to make the case come out the way you want it to.
Why do you want it to come out that way? What is it about approximating fully automatic fire which you think improves the nation's safety and well-being?
Lathrop, "trigger", like "automatic", currently means one specific thing in a firearm context.
We have a perfectly good, and very frequently used, mechanism for changing what laws say. We have a rather flawed, and also frequently used, mechanism for delegating legislation to the executive branch. We do not have, and should not, have a mechanism for judges to revise clear and unambiguous statutes.
Pick up a loaded revolver by the grip and in a fire and you will get multiple shots fired - does that make the grip function like a machine-gun? I’d rather face someone with a bump-stock than without, as the ability to control accurate fires is terrible. Bump-stocks we’re deadly in Las Vegas, as the shooter was targeting large crowds where accuracy was less a factor than volume of fire. But statute doesn’t address accurate fire, just mechanism of high-volume fire. The interpretation of one trigger pull as one actuating action and multiple rounds fired is a stretch.
What? This may be one of you stupidest arguments yet.
Yes, there are multiple physical pieces involved in firing a modern semi-automatic - some involve more than 100 moving parts! - and only one of them is the trigger. A firing pin is not a trigger. The hammer is not a trigger. The various springs, rails, catches and bars - none of these are the trigger.
The most absurd result of this ruling is that, because the definition is now dependent on the mental state of the shooter, someone wanting a gun to fire repeatedly converts the weapon into a "machinegun" even if the weapon does not and cannot fire more than one bullet per trigger activation!
Actually they don't work the same way regardless of automatic or semi-automatic. If they did... it would be mechanically impossible for both of those variants to exist... AS THEY WOULD THEN BE IDENTICAL. If a swmi-automatic worked just like an automatic... then my AR is, right now with not modifications on it, capable of firing multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger. But try as I might... physics keeps calling bullshit and only one round goes down range.
No Lathrop, YOU are straight up dishonest. Because words have meanings. A trigger is not a sear or a hammer. And "trigger" as used in the actual law is a noun. Not a verb. Also "...all those other pieces are working in exactly the same way they work in fully automatic weapons." is a lie. Full auto fire the trigger is depressed and is not reset. In semi auto firing the trigger is depressed and reset for each round fired.
While I almost always disagree with you I am surprised to see such outright dishonesty.
Others have rightly beat you over the head for the bullshit you wrote, so I'm going to ask a very simple question:
If I tell you to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, which part of the gun are you not supposed to touch? (Hint, it's inside the appropriately-named TRIGGER GUARD.)
Wow, folks. Clearly that little SL gem needed a trigger warning.
Hypothetically, let's say there's some ambiguity in the statute. It's not completely ambiguous because we do know a few things for sure:
*The definition of machine gun depends on details about how the trigger operates.
*Semi-automatic rifles like an AR-15 are not machineguns.
*Since the thing that separates a semi-automatic from a machine gun is how the trigger works, in order for a bump stock to transform an AR-15 into a machinegun, it would need to change how the trigger works somehow. We might not be sure exactly what that change would need to be, but it would need to change *somehow*.
*Bump stocks do not change how the trigger works *at all*.
And that's why people think these arguments are in bad faith.
I have read the God Damned text of the law. There isn't enough ambiguity in the world to make the words of that law mean that a bump stock is a machine gun. If you think otherwise you're in Humpty Dumpty land, and unreachable.
Suppose my hand is replaced with a bionic replacement. Technology has advanced to where this is possible now.
So my bionic can pull the trigger as fast as a bump stock ( actually with a little practice I don't even need the bionic part but this a hypothetical).
Is my bionic hand a machinegun according to the ATF?
Very good point
With electronic firing mechanisms (see: Metal Storm), you can actually rig up multiple "triggers" for a single firing mechanism. If you push these electronic "triggers", say one with each finger, like pounding on a keyboard, is it semi-automatic or "like a machine gun"?
There use to be a trigger known as the Hellfire. It would fire the weapon when pulled and fire it again when released. It was claimed a person could reach to almost 600 rpm with one.
That's a binary trigger. According to the ATF, binary triggers do NOT make a machinegun because a pull is one function and a release is a different function.
What do you mean, "used to be"? They're still sold, and they're still legal.
Firing a Calico with a 100 round magazine loaded with tracers, at dusk, is the closest I've ever gotten to having a laser rifle. It was cool as heck, but who can afford to do that more than once or twice? Not me.
I said "used to be" because I haven't seen one or an ad for one for quite a few years. At one time, they were quite popular. I suspect that those who bought them found out that the cost of ammo made them unattractive. I know ranges that prohibit mag dumps and a couple that do not allow trigger systems like the Hellfire.
You're probably not seeing ads for them because a lot of the places that you'd expect to see the ads are refusing to carry them. A form of partial surrender to the gun banners.
https://www.firequest.com/HEG2.html
Yes, and you're definitely going to need a $200 Tax Stamp for that hand, son. 😉
If I separated that hand from you and made it autonomous, I think that's pretty clearly a fully automatic weapon, no?
You may suppose for this hypothetical the device works with me and me alone: https://youtu.be/x_zGiqV7Bmk
We have the Chevron deference, what about the Mirriam-Webster's deference?
A bump-stock does not even remotely begin to meet the definition of a firearm, let alone a "machinegun."
Then the obvious problem with the "..single function of the trigger" text: if the trigger doesn't activate, nothing the bump-stock does will cause a round to be fired. The fact that the trigger is being pulled repeatedly by the movement of the entire firearm changes nothing about the fact that the trigger is being activated for each and every round fired, thus again not a "machinegun."
I question the motivation of any judge who would dispute these points.
(And for the record, I neither have owned, own, nor intend to own a 'bump stock' of any kind.)
Agree completely. I also tend to think it results in a pointless waste of ammo. I can't figure there's any level of accuracy with one of those.
Makes me think of the Forced Reset Trigger. It mechanically forces you to depress the trigger and will not allow the hammer to fall until the action is done and the trigger is pulled again. It literally MAKES you fire semi-auto. But because physics... it allows you to do this insanely fast. But it is not in any mechanical way a machine gun. Just like the bump stock. Even if it works 100% like it is supposed to, the gun will not fire until you press the trigger... and this must happen for every single round. By every definition... not a machine gun.
The argument, if you go back to the dissent from the DC's ruling, was that "single function of the trigger" was ambiguous because it could either refer to the physical trigger OR to the "intent of the shooter".
And if the gun fired more than one round during one "intent of the shooter", it was therefore a "machinegun".
That's the argument. Any judge who'd advance that argument should be impeached, they're too dishonest to be on the bench.
My client did not repeatedly beat his wife. He admits to doing it once and is willing to face the consequences of that one action. That she was struck repeatedly and required my client to swing his fists multiple times is ambiguous. The reality is that he intended to only hit her once and thus only one "function of striking", by law, was comitted.
It's both sad and amazing to see the contortions the Courts will go through in order to rule against 2nd Amendment rights.
Put a bump-stock on a table and ask 1000 - hell, 100,000 people what that is, and nobody will answer "a machinegun."
As to the trigger argument...sigh. Why bother using words when writing laws when Judges will just make up definitions to suit their decisions.
In the various diagrams and manuals I've read for firearms, there's only ever one part labeled "trigger."
"Put a bump-stock on a table and ask 1000 - hell, 100,000 people what that is, and nobody will answer "a machinegun.""
I'm not sure that's a dispositive test. If you put the right hand side plate of an M2 Browning on the table most people wouldn't recognize it as a machine gun either, but legally it is.
(for people who aren't into the minutiae of the NFA, one part is the machine gun, and the rest is just random parts anyone can buy.
A hand cranked Gatling gun is legal (search for 'Tippmann Armory' if you want your own). Put a pulley and a motor on one and it's a machine gun.
This raises the interesting question about a disassembled machine gun. Anecdotally, people used to argue that you could store your WWII bring back with the firing pin removed or otherwise disassembled, and it wasn't a machine gun as long as it wasn't assembled, but that certainly isn't true today.
So saying a bump stock, by itself, can't be a machine gun seems like saying a shoelace can't be one (I'll give a link below), or that a pulley/V belt/motor can't be a machine gun because you unbolted it from your Gatling gun.
If all this seems like NFA law is confusing and sometimes nonsensical, it frequently is. And it has draconian penalties.)
Shoestring that was a machine gun.
Well, let me walk that back: that link includes an ATF letter reversing themselves - they now say that shoestring isn't a machine gun unless attached to a gun. But an M2 side plate still is a machine gun, even if you don't have the rest of it. Isn't NFA law fun?
I'm reasonably sure that a bumpstock *isn't even legally a gun*, much less a machine gun. The law is quite specific on what is actually the gun, and most of the parts of a fully assembled gun aren't it.
See 26 U.S.C. §§ 5845(b) which defines 'machine gun' to include "or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun".
For real life examples, google 'autokeycard' or 'portablewallhanger atf' (you need the 'atf' there or you get a lot of wall hangers that won't make your AR go cyclic).
Now, in ought-land you are free to argue those shouldn't meet the 5845 definition of machine gun, but in is-land they do. Google, for example, 'lightning link' which have been NFA registered for many years.
The NFA is very very murky territory, full of lots of things that don't make sense.
So what you're saying is, you can still legally own a bump stock so long as you don't own a weapon it attaches to?
With the disclaimer that I Am Not An (NFA) Lawyer, or any kind of lawyer, I don't think so. IIUC, a Lightning Link is a machine gun, per 5845, whether you have an AR to put it in or not.
If you are trying to make sense of NFA laws, well, there's your mistake 🙂
Here's a fun one: buy two identical AR lowers. Build #1 into a rifle, build #2 into a pistol. Now convert #2 into a rifle, identical in every way to #1. Now convert both to pistols. #2 is now a perfectly legal pistol again, while #1 is now an illegal short barreled rifle with a mandatory 5 (??10??) year sentence for possession, even though #1 and #2 are 100% mechanically identical. If you build it first as a rifle, that is sort of an original sin that follows that receiver forever, but if you build it first as a pistol, then you can change it back and forth at will.
So, if even the theoretical possibility that something could become part of a machinegun makes it a machinegun, does that mean every metal-working shop in the country is in possession of dozens of illegal machineguns?
No, you're trying to make sense of things again. You gotta stop that :-).
It is a lot of arbitrary decisions by the ATF. Like the on and off shoe string machine gun.
On the one hand, I have some sympathy for the ATF; they have to decide a lot of edge cases. But they flip flop. That's my objection to what they did with bump stocks. If they had originally said they were machine guns, like lightning links etc, then fine. But once they decide, they shouldn't arbitrarily reverse themselves. That doesn't engender respect for the law.
I would have thought that when the en banc court was equally divided it would mean upholding the Sixth Circuit panel holding, rather than the district court. I guess going en banc invalidates the panel holding?
Yes, that's correct. A rehearing (by the same panel) or a rehearing en banc is a review of the district court's decision, not a review of the panel's decision. Once a motion for a rehearing is granted, the original panel decision is vacated, as if it had never existed.
any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.This has always amused me. Almost anyone who has a semiautomatic pistol or rifle and is into robotics, even primitive robotics, almost certainly has everything needed to make a "machine gun".
About all it would take would be a solenoid or small motor and very simple construction of a device to pull the trigger automatically at some fixed rate with a simple circuit or just use a microcontroller like a Pico or Arduino for the most flexibility and configuration options (such as firing just three round bursts).
Yeah, I could probably throw together a machine gun in the next few hours, though it wouldn't be particularly pretty or robust. Heck, a hand carved cog on my battery powered screwdriver would do the trick.
The BATF's definition of machine gun, if it were taken seriously, means that everyone who has a semi-auto gun and is even minimally technically inclined is in violation of the law. Their definition of a "firearm" encompasses everybody who has a home shop and any metal stock.
It amounts to, "Anybody who could build one in under a day legally already has one".
Ayn Rand might have called it "a nation of machine gun owners."
committed. That wouldn't turn the firearm into a machine gun. You would have a robot mechanically engaging a semi-automatic firing system repeatedly (if I understand you right). To be a machine gun... the actual firearm needs to continuously fire under ot's own cyclical power and with only one trigger pull.
Unless you are saying that based on the current ruling it creates a world in which the ability to male a robot (very loose term here) and owns a gun is now in possession of machinegun.
In March, a divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit rejected a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms regulation
Yesterday, the full court affirmed the original district court judgment in Gun Owners of America v. Garland by an equally divided vote, without an opinion for the court.
WTF?
How does an 8-8 "full court" overturn anything?
Shouldn't the tie mean that the panel ruling remains?
Before some adhere to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, I wish they'd adhere to the spirit of the Constitution rather than the letter.
For example, Congress declining to change the law, then the executive and judicial branches acting as legislators to pass a new law you have to go to jail over.
If a journalist corners a congressman or senator, and says "Why did you vote for this?", and all 535 can hide and say, truthfully, "I never voted for it", well.
Quite frankly that's neither the letter nor spirit of the Constitution.
Just saw a media report that said something like a "bump stock transforms a regular rifle into a fully automatic assault weapon MUCH LIKE THE ONE RITTENHOUSE CARRIED TO MURDER SEVERAL BLM PROTESTERS." That take an extra special jerkarse to come up with a distortion like that.
CNN once ran a front page headline soon after the tsunami that killed so many, that "Global warming sea rise will be just like the tsunami!"
Down towards the bottom of this hyperventillation they suggested seas might rise 30 feet, the height of the tsunami, but not over seconds but hundreds of years.
In what moral universe is gun pedantry a separate thing with moral advantages?
Every firearm features a triggering mechanism with multiple parts. Only one of those is the device called a, "trigger," but that device without the others will not, "trigger," the firearm.
By use of a bump-stock mechanism, all the other parts of the triggering mechanism save the one called the, "trigger," can be operated to, "trigger," the firing mechanism, as if the gun were fully automatic. The rate of fire thus enabled may not reach that of the most capable fully automatic weapons, but exceeds that of some of those previously designated as machine guns. Considered as a moral question, the law against fully automatic guns was doubtless about avoiding that result.
Bump stocks are thus plain moral evasions, with no better justification than gun pedantry to support them. Why do pro-gun advocates who tout endlessly their moral strengths ("law abiding gun owners") applaud moral lapses made for the purpose to evade the moral purpose of the law?
I can see justification for complaints about people deprived of property. Those could be dealt with entirely by buying back bump stocks. Why no calls for that?
Why do you ignore the facts in this case as stated in the post for some weird hypothetical? The ATF said bump stocks were legal and not machine guns. Then they simply changed their mind, there was no legislation to change their position.
Bump stocks were simply not "plain moral evasions" in the eyes of the law and the ATF, then suddenly they were. Again, with no legislative changes. All that changed was Trump's interpretation.
How accepting this is consistent with your oft-repeated sovereignty of the people theory is unclear.
You remind me of one of the more annoying things about gun grabbers: Their conviction that ignorance concerning the topic they want to regulate is a moral virtue.
A reminder: All a bump stock does, literally all it does, is enhance the bounciness of a firearm. You can accomplish the same thing by holding the gun loosely, or training your finger to a certain degree of muscle tone. (Though I'd recommend Amaguriken training instead, it has more applications. 😉 )
It simply makes it easier to repeatedly press the trigger.
Yes, morally it's an evasion of the law, in the sense that actually complying with the word of the law can evade the intent, especially when the law was drafted by people who are convinced that ignorance concerning the topic of the law is a moral virtue! You should take a look at the armor piercing ammo definition some time, if you want a laugh.
I have no compunctions AT ALL about evading the intent of a law whose intent is to infringe a constitutional right, and thus was illegitimate from the start. The very existence of gun control laws is a violation of the Constitution, and the Bump stock regulation is about as contrary to the rule of law as it gets.
Words have meanings, even if they hurt your feelings.
"The rate of fire thus enabled may not reach that of the most capable fully automatic weapons, but exceeds that of some of those previously designated as machine guns."
That also describes Jerry Miculek's or Ed McGivern's finger on a revolver finger.
I would suggest that:
A)I have no objection to congress banning bump stocks. As the saying goes, they have one job. If they aren't doing it, we should stop paying them.
B)In terms of ATF regulations, they need to make up their minds. People shouldn't be doing something with ATF's explicit approval today and become felons tomorrow. They keep arbitrarily changing the rules, and I'm not just talking about bump stocks.
C)This is phrasing A in another way, but: if the current state of the law isn't to your liking, the right thing to do is to go to congress and get the law changed, not get the courts to torture definitions to change the law in ways congress is unwilling to do.
"A)I have no objection to congress banning bump stocks. As the saying goes, they have one job. If they aren't doing it, we should stop paying them."
I do. Bump stocks are remarkably stupid toys, but they are remarkably stupid toys that implicate an explicit constitutional right. And that one might have been used in one crime is hardly an excuse to ban anything that even so much as brushes the edge of a constitutional right.
Moreover, Congress has no legitimate authority to ban diddly squat, outside of D.C. and some military bases. And I'm never going to forget that, even if the courts have.
"they are remarkably stupid toys that implicate an explicit constitutional right"
How so? There are two usual reasons for the second amendment: self defense or the militia.
I don't see bump stocks as useful for self defense, but I'll listen to your arguments for that proposition.
Similarly, you can make a militia argument for genuine full auto capability - the 'you should be able to own anything an infantryman carries' argument - but infantrymen don't carry bump stocks.
They are oddball range toys, and the second amendment isn't about toys.
This is the difference between the reason for a right, and the extent of the right. It's a right of the people to keep and bear arms, and while a reason for guaranteeing the right is presented, that doesn't constrict the right, it just explains it.
I might accept that an enumerated right can be constrained for edge cases, but such constraints require a good reason, while the exercise itself requires no more reason than, "I want to.", that being exactly what rights are about: Who gets to decide. NOT needing justification or permission!
Indeed, constrictions of rights in edge cases is actually dangerous, because it is easily perverted into substantial violation of the right. And the right to keep and bear arms is particularly subject to that dynamic, given how few judges place any value on it at all.
And there's no such good reason here. Bump stocks are stupid toys, but they are not especially dangerous stupid toys. We've got, what, perhaps one recorded case of one being used in a crime, and it wasn't even necessary to commit the crime, the loss of accuracy might even have reduced the death toll. Aside from that one case, the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, I have not heard that even one was used in a crime.
So, no, there was no particular need for this infringement of the right.
Perhaps I wasn't clear; you aren't really addressing the point I was trying to make.
If you take either justification of the 2A, then it protects either:
1)things the militia might need to defend the country when some future El Presidente declares himself president for life.
2)things you might use to defend yourself against criminals.
Both of those tests have, I think, an element of reasonableness. For example, Lawn Darts got banned (and based on a lot fewer deaths than Las Vegas). Does that mean I can claim 2A protection for lawn darts by saying 'I might use a lawn dart to defend against a burglar (or El Presidente's storm troopers) hiding in defilade'? I don't think so.
If I wanted to make a case for 'things that are banned that the militia might need' I'd be arguing against, say, the FCC's ban on encrypted radio, not bans on bump stocks or slingshots.
The tests are 'useful for the militia' or 'in common use for defense', not 'any random gun thing'. It's not a gun specific amendment, which is why it covers e.g. tasers - but that lack of specificity works both ways - the fact that something is gun related doesn't automatically mean the 2A protects it.
As soon as the courts rule that fully automatic weapons, silencers, regular capacity magazines, and short barreled rifles and shotguns are useful for the militia and eliminates all bans, restrictions, and fees on those items we can have a discussion about bump stocks. Until then it is just a bunch of hoplophobes lying in their bad faith arguments.
Basically what Harvey said.
If you want to get into justifications, the 2nd amendment's purpose was to ensure a population armed in such a fashion that in an emergency you could throw together a military force from average citizens, and they'd already have the appropriate weapons, and be familiar with them.
The more military in nature a weapon is, the more strongly the 2nd amendment applies to it. That's why the Miller Court asked if Layton's sawn off shotgun had any military uses; If it had been demonstrated to have military utility, the 2nd amendment would have protected his ownership of it!
While bump stocks are for most purposes just a toy for wasting ammo, they do make a semi-automatic firearm act a bit more like a machine gun, even if they don't make it actually one by the legal definition.
By Miller's standard, that makes bump stocks protected!
The reason government is offended by them, of course, is that a population armed in the same manner as the military, the goal of the 2nd amendment, is exactly what our current government wants to avoid. Their overriding objective is to commit exactly the evil the 2nd amendment was added to the Constitution to prevent...
"While bump stocks are for most purposes just a toy for wasting ammo, they do make a semi-automatic firearm act a bit more like a machine gun, even if they don't make it actually one by the legal definition.
By Miller's standard, that makes bump stocks protected!"
I don't see it. That's an argument that full auto machine guns (hand grenades, claymores, ...) are 2A protected, because they have a military use. But it's hard to claim bump stocks have a military use ... because the military doesn't use them.
Yes, full auto machine guns are, by the Miller reasoning, protected. Bump stock equipped guns would be protected because their difference from regular arms makes them more like the protected arms, not less.
Sorry, still don't see how 'you can have what the military has' gets stretched to things the military doesn't have or want. I do get that you passionately believe it.
This is the executive branch speaking the law into existence. It is the dictate part of dictstorship, and our Constitution is supposed to specifically forbid it.
Representatives vote on language to send you to jail, and cannot give that power to anyone else.
Because I weally weally want it to be so, umm, in this case, does not leap that hurdle.
Firing rate has nothing to do with whether or not a weapon is an automatic (or a "machinegun" by the ATF's terms). It is entirely possible to build an automatic weapon (a "machinegun") that fires only once per year - if the trigger is activated the entire time.
Additionally, what does any of this have to do with "moral question"s? The only questions is whether or not the law passed by Congress gives the ATF the authority to ban bump stocks. That isn't a moral or ethical question.
By use of a bump-stock mechanism, all the other parts of the triggering mechanism save the one called the, "trigger," can be operated to, "trigger," the firing mechanism, as if the gun were fully automatic.
The above us untrue. If the trigger is pressed one time and stays pulled, the firearm will expend exactly one round... even with a bump stock. The bump stock does not alter in amy mechanical way how the fire control group operates. A gun with a bumpstock must still have the trigger manually pulled, released, reset (which occurs once released enough), and pulled again in order to fire two rounds.
A machine gun is different. The trigger is pulled, it is held down continuously, and the action of the bolt and hammer cycles repeatedly with no further manipulation of the trigger. If the trigger is released, the cycle stops.
With a bumpstock, if the trigger is continuously held down as you would with a machine gun... exactly one round would be fired.
What you are attempting to do is say that an airplane is a glider because they both move through the air. No... they are mechanically different, do not operate the same way, and do not do the se thing.
That does not mean that banning bumpstocks is a good or bad idea. That is a CONGRESSIONAL question. The problem here is not necessarily what the de facto law is... but that it is arrived at via methods that are in violation of Constitutional principles.
If "specific guarantees in the bill of rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance" is the law of the land, then wouldn't there be penumbras also in regards to the Second Amendment?
As far as the judiciary are concerned, the 2nd amendment has whatever the exact opposite of penumbras are. And the only live question is whether the anti-penumbras consume the whole right.
Are all autistic, bigoted right-wingers fascinated by guns? Does it begin with toy guns, and they never grow up?
"So even though these newer devices might not fall "within the letter" of the statutory "machinegun" ban, courts may be tempted to treat them as covered anyway because they fall within its underlying "spirit."
In Millennial/GenZ parlance, the statute apparently bans "machine-guns and stuff."
There's a sign at the annual (and very popular but sadly, now defunct) Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot, that explains the motivation and philosophy behind full auto for many; "Helping turn money into noise for over two decades". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyKKbLBzjcE
heard Alec Baldwin's gonna play Las Vegas Mass Murderer Stephen Paddock in "Death from Mandalay Bay"....
might want to stay away when he does that scene with the Remington 870 12 gage....