The Volokh Conspiracy
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Framing the Abortion Argument
Thoughts on yesterday's oral argument
It was an absorbing two hours of oral argument - well-argued by the lawyers, and a very engaged and well-prepared bench. Like Super Bowl matchups, arguments in the Big Cases often disappoint, given the huge buildup beforehand; this one, however, did not - to my ears, anyway. [If you missed the proceedings, the full audio is available here, and the official transcript here]
It is difficult to say anything truly novel about the issues in the case, which have been picked over and argued about for 50 years or so. Two points that were the focus of the argument, however, struck me as noteworthy.
The first involves the application of the doctrine of stare decisis. This is, obviously, central to the case; Mississippi explicitly requests that the Court overrule the holdings of prior precedent (Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey) in regard to the existence and scope of a woman's constitutional right to terminate her pregnancy.
This is not unusual; litigants frequently ask the Court to overturn its prior holdings, and the analysis of the question is pretty well-trodden ground, with a pretty well-developed protocol for answering the question. As the Court put it in Casey:
When this Court reexamines a prior holding, its judgment is customarily informed by a series of prudential and pragmatic considerations designed to test the consistency of overruling a prior decision with the ideal of the rule of law, and to gauge the respective costs of reaffirming and overruling a prior case. Thus, for example, we may ask [a] whether the rule has proved to be intolerable simply in defying practical workability; [b] whether the rule is subject to a kind of reliance that would lend a special hardship to the consequences of overruling and add inequity to the cost of repudiation; [c] whether related principles of law have so far developed as to have left the old rule no more than a remnant of abandoned doctrine; or [d] whether facts have so changed or come to be seen so differently, as to have robbed the old rule of significant application or justification.
What does make this case unusual, though, is that the Court has already done the stare decisis analysis in connection with this constitutional right - in Casey itself, where it held, after a lengthy consideration of the question, that "within the bounds of normal stare decisis analysis, and subject to the considerations on which it customarily turns, the stronger argument is for affirming Roe's central holding, with whatever degree of personal reluctance any of us may have, not for overruling it." [The discussion in Casey of how the rule of stare decisis should be applied to the constitutional right recognized in Roe is quite interesting; if you haven't read it, you can find it here]
Thus, as Julie Rinkelman, attorney for the Respondents challenging the Mississippi law, put it, this case is about "precedent on precedent" - precedent squared. Mississippi is not merely asking the Court to discard stare decisis by overturning the substantive holdings of Roe and Casey (that a woman has a constitutional right to terminate a pregnancy pre-viability); it is also asking the court to discard stare decisis by overturning Casey's stare decisis holding (that the "normal stare decisis analysis" does not call for overruling Roe's substantive holding).
To put it differently: the Court must, if it is to overrule Roe and Casey, explain why, under the principles of stare decisis, it is discarding its own prior holding applying the principles of stare decisis to this constitutional right.
It's a little headache-inducing (could we get precedent^3? will the decision in this case be precedent for the use of precedent to determine the use of precedent? and so on) - but I do think framing the central question this way works considerably to Respondent's advantage. To do what Mississippi asks it to do, the Court will have to explain not only why and how Roe got it wrong (and not just wrong, but wrong in a way that justifies tossing it aside), but why and how Casey got it wrong when it held that the principles of stare decisis do not require overturning Roe (and not just wrong, but wrong in a way that justifies our tossing that holding aside as well). I don't think that's going to be too easy to do.
The second noteworthy moment came in a discussion of the source of the underlying constitutional right that the Respondents were asserting. Justice Thomas asked the question this way:
JUSTICE THOMAS: Back to my original question. I know your interest here is in abortion, I understand that, but, if I were to ask you what constitutional right protects the right to abortion, is it privacy? Is it autonomy? What would it be? … What I'm trying to focus on is to lower the level of generality or at least be a little bit more specific. In the old days, we used to say it was a right to privacy that the Court found in the due process, substantive due process clause, okay? So I'm trying to get you to tell me, what are we relying on now? Is it privacy? Is it autonomy? What is it?
I liked Ms. Rikelman's terse reply:
MS. RIKELMAN: It's liberty, Your Honor.
Basta cosi. That line should appear on t-shirts in the near future.
She continued:
It's the textual protection in the Fourteenth Amendment that a state can't deprive a person of liberty without due process of law, and the Court has interpreted liberty to include the right to make family decisions and the right to physical autonomy …
The question was a little (or more than a little) disingenuous on Justice Thomas' part. It is true that Roe itself was less than transparently clear about precisely where it was situating the constitutional right in question, leading to several decades of wrangling over "penumbral rights" and "shadow rights" and the "right to privacy" and the "right to medical autonomy" and the like.
But Casey - as Justice Thomas, who was on the Court at the time, is surely aware - settled the matter:
Constitutional protection of the woman's decision to terminate her pregnancy derives from the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. It declares that no State shall "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The controlling word in the case before us is "liberty."
The Court's decisions have afforded constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, family relationships, child rearing and education, and contraception, and have recognized the right of the individual to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child. [Many citations, omitted]
Or as Ms. Rikelman put it later in the argument: "For a state to take control of a woman's body and require that she go through pregnancy and childbirth, with all the physical risks and life-altering consequences that brings, is a fundamental deprivation of her liberty. Preserving a woman's right to make this decision until viability protects her liberty while logically balancing the other interests at stake."
I leave it to others to explain why Justice Thomas would want to obfuscate this question by referring to pre-Casey confusion. Framing it as "liberty" - the way Casey framed it - makes it seem not just reasonable but almost self-evident (and, dare I say it here on the VC, squarely libertarian). Surely most people would agree that we enjoy the "liberty" in this country of making vital, intensely personal, life-altering decisions - when and with whom to start a family, where to live, what religion to adhere to (or not), who to have sex with (or not), whether to send one's children to public or parochial school, and the like - without interference from the state.
It is important, I think, to keep this framing of the issue at the forefront of the argument (and I thought Ms. Rikelman did a very good job of doing that). Framing matters, in constitutional litigation as much or more than anywhere else - the campaign for the right to marry whomever you wish to picked up vital steam when it was no longer a campaign for "same-sex marriage" but for "marriage equality."
FWIW, my personal prediction is that the Court will not overrule Roe and/or Casey, at least insofar as there will be five votes to re-affirm the existence of a due-process-protected right to decide whether to terminate one's pregnancy. Justice Roberts will succeed at getting persuading at least one of the post-Casey Justices to join in his opinion, which will confirm the existence of the right while simultaneously discarding the "viability" standard for determining when the State's countervailing interest in the life of the fetus arises and giving States more leeway in defining the timing of their prohibitions. Just a guess.
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"Constitutional protection of the woman's decision to terminate her pregnancy derives from the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. It declares that no State shall 'deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.' The controlling word in the case before us is 'liberty.'"
"The Court's decisions have afforded constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, family relationships, child rearing and education, and contraception, and have recognized the right of the individual to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child."
"Or as Ms. Rikelman put it later in the argument: 'For a state to take control of a woman's body and require that she go through pregnancy and childbirth, with all the physical risks and life-altering consequences that brings, is a fundamental deprivation of her liberty. Preserving a woman's right to make this decision until viability protects her liberty while logically balancing the other interests at stake.'"
And that ladies and gentlemen is the end of the story.
The rest is just religious gobbley-gook.
Your right. Great justification for slavery. We cannot deprive people of their property, so the courts need to just stay out of what actions people take with their slaves.
Oh wait no, maybe the actual central question of this debate is if there is a second person who is being deprived of their life. Everyone agrees that people have a right to life, liberty, and property. Not everyone agrees on what the category of people consists of.
The slaves had already been born.
Non-sequitor. The claims of slave's status as not people relied on race or ethnicity. The current debate relies on time from conception or being extracted from the womb (whichever comes first), as who is or is not people. Both debates are on the same subject, who is a person with rights and who isn't.
No it's not. Race or ethnicity isn't at all like born vs. not born. Just because someone draws a bad distinction of race or ethnicity doesn't mean that legitimate distinctions like born versus unborn don't exist.
Question is still who isn't and who is a person with rights. You obviously have an opinion on who isn't and who is a person, which you should share, and more importantly you should argue your opinion openly.
My opinion on the subject has already been aired here multiple times. The short version is that in order to determine who is, and is not, a person, you first have to define person by showing what sets human persons apart. It's not enough that it's human life; if it were, cancerous tumors would qualify. The issue is personhood, and what distinguishes personhood from other life forms that aren't persons (such as all those human cells you killed last time you scratched your nose).
The answer to that question is tied up in consciousness, self awareness, self will, things that an early fetus clearly lacks. A fetus generally acquires them at around the time of viability. At which point, it has achieved personhood.
Yeah because those darn cancerous tumors are always growing into fully formed human beings.
If you’re going to argue , at least make an attempt to be somewhere near logical. What you said is ridiculous.
A cancerous tumor doesn't even have the potential to become a person, unlike a fetus. But potential and actuality are not the same thing.
Womb-Control Statists love to do two things:
First, they obsessively focus on late-term abortions, ignoring the fact that 91 percent of all abortions are performed in the first trimester; 98.7 percent during the first 20 weeks. They also religiously (pun intended) ignore any mention of the medical decisions that prompt the small number of late-term procedures. This is understandable, because their tales of gore & horror lose all value if the marks hear of the tragic medical decisions behind these abortions. The first rule of running a scam is always keep the target in the dark.
Second, they imply everyone who doesn't follow their maximalist view is a killer by default. But what do they believe? It's amazing how infrequently your bevises & Illocusts spell out where they stand. Do they really believe the extremist position: that anything that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the womb is abortion & murder? Is that reason enough to force (say) a victim of incest to bear her father's child? Should a ten year old girl be legally compelled thru a full pregnancy so a microscopic-sized proto-Sally or proto-Biff will have its soul's destiny on earth per God's will? Seems like the position of a cold--hearted bastard to me.
Krychek_2 says there is no simple answer says when a zygote has the legal rights of a person, and bevis-types mock that. So what do they hold? I'm guessing it will either be absurdist or require some nuance of its own. (it would be nice to know which)
No, it's not a matter of potential. A cancerous tumor is not a human organism. Ditto a human blood cell or a human skin cell.
A human fetus already is a human organism.
Lee Moore : "No, it's not a matter of potential"
At six weeks, a zygote is 1/8 to 1/4 inch in length, or about the size of a pomegranate seed or grain of rice. Stretch the semantic value of "human organism" as far as you can, we are still not dealing with the "entire creature" of your definition below. Apparently development & potentiality still has a part to play in the discussion, despite your attempt to define it away.
But why stop there? Scientists define the start of a separate life at the implantation of a fertilized egg in the womb. But that doesn't satisfy the anti-abortionists' lust for more "victims": They seek to ban some forms of contraception for impeding implantation, despite scientific studies showing that not how the contraception works. (if you thought they'd welcome the study findings, you're naïve)
So what about all those fertilized eggs that don't implant (a sizable number by natural cause alone)? Are they also "human organisms" that are "entire creatures"? See, it would help if you define what you actually believe, with its practical and legal repercussions.
@Lee Moore (and those holding similar 'it has the potential to be a human').
So, is masturbation murder? Those sperm cells had the potential of becoming humans. Is every sperm sacred? Should we be prosecuting pornographers for inciting murder?
Clearly all sides are willing to grant a baby is a person (that is, personhood has definitely entailed by birth). Virtually no one thinks a sperm or egg is a person. It would be pretty hard, even, to argue that a blastocyst was a person. But it's also not clear where, precisely, personhood should entail. The viability line was always about balancing the liberty interest of the woman with the uncertain personhood of the fetus, the idea being that the likelihood the fetus should be considered a person increases the longer it develops. Viability represents the line where the fetus could live independently, and is thus no longer just an 'appendage', as it were, of the mother. Just like the potential to be a human doesn't make it human (yet), the potential to be a person doesn't make it a person (yet). If personhood is the relevant moral bright line here, then that's where the anti-abortionists should be providing convincing arguments for where and why personhood entails.
Related: If a pregnant woman trips, falls, and accidentally induces a miscarriage, should she be guilty of involuntary manslaughter? What if she was engaging in behavior that made a fall more likely? (Such as ice skating).
And I know Lee said its not a matter of potential, but then he makes an argument that's entirely about potential. Tumors and skin cells aren't persons because they don't have the potential to become humans. At which point i have to understand him to mean that potentiality is the key discriminator.
grb : At six weeks, a zygote is 1/8 to 1/4 inch in length, or about the size of a pomegranate seed or grain of rice.
No. Get your zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses sorted out before you start trying to discuss developmental biology.
But sticking to actual zygotes, yes, when human organisms are zygotes, they're about the same size as lots of other single celled organisms. You are surprised by this ?
Stretch the semantic value of "human organism" as far as you can, we are still not dealing with the "entire creature" of your definition below. Apparently development & potentiality still has a part to play in the discussion, despite your attempt to define it away.
Nobody claims that a fetus hasn't got a lot of development ahead of it. But so has a toddler. Is it your position that a toddler's life is merely a potential life, and it's not actually currently alive, simply because it has a lot of developing to do ? What's your view on teenagers ?
But why stop there? Scientists define the start of a separate life at the implantation of a fertilized egg in the womb.
Pro choice medics deliberately changed the medical dictionary definitions in the 1960s to redefine pregnancy as starting at implantation, and contraception as being that which prevented conception or implanatation for wholly political reasons.
We know this, because one of them was kind enough to say the quiet part out loud, in urging the change so that methods of preventing implantation could be marketed as "contraception" rather than "abortion" :
Boving : "the social advantage of being considered to prevent conception rather than to destroy an established pregnancy could depend on something so simple as a prudent habit of speech."
But aside from the semantic legerdemain, it's obvious that the beginning of life cannot be "implantation" because the great majority of animals do not reproduce using "implantation." When you start having to invent special definitions to specify the start of a new organism's life, when you're talking about humans as opposed to other animals, it's a clue that it's the PR department talking not the biology department.
So what about all those fertilized eggs that don't implant (a sizable number by natural cause alone)? Are they also "human organisms" that are "entire creatures"?
Obviously they are. Like Krychek you don't seem to be able to stick to biology for twenty seconds without scuttling off to the safe haven of ethical and political hand waving.
Squirreloid : And I know Lee said its not a matter of potential, but then he makes an argument that's entirely about potential. Tumors and skin cells aren't persons because they don't have the potential to become humans. At which point i have to understand him to mean that potentiality is the key discriminator.
Do yourself a favor and spend half an hour on the internet reading up on the concept of organisms.
Cancer cells and skin cells and brain cells are not organisms.
Human zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses are organisms and they are currently organisms, not potential future organisms.
This is not something special to humans, it is the same across the animal kingdom.
Lee: I'm a biologist by training. I don't need to look it up on the internet. And one of the defining traits of an organism is the ability to maintain homeostasis - an early fetus cannot do that. It depends on the mother to do that for it. Another key defining trait is the ability to metabolize, something else a fetus cannot do on its own. It depends on the mother to supply oxygen and nutrients, and to dispose of waste products.
In fact, a cancer cell meets even more requirements for being an organism than a fetus does - both have organized structure, both can react to stimuli, both grow, but the cancer cell can *reproduce*, while the fetus cannot.
At which point, the fetus merely has the *potential* to be an organism. Viability is the line at which that potentiality becomes an actuality.
All that said, I don't see biology as the relevant consideration here. Kry is right, it's about personhood, which isn't a biological thing, its a legal and ethical thing. Biology will never answer when rights attach, because rights aren't biological.
Lee,
(1) I'd be interested in seeing the citation on "the quiet part out loud", though I'm sure you'll find plenty of controversial noise to obfuscate with. I just note that in addition to being the scientific definition of life's origin, implantation is blindingly, obviously true. For every pregnancy there are many fertilized eggs that didn't implant by natural process alone. All of them had no way to receive nourishment, no way to develop past their size of 0.1mms, no way to exist except for the briefest period. Yet you're here to tell us each one is a "human organism" and "entire creature" that must be "cherished".
(2) Which brings us to this quote : "Like Krychek you don't seem to be able to stick to biology for twenty seconds without scuttling off to the safe haven of ethical and political hand waving." First, thanks, as I like the company. Second, how gawdforsaken dead to self-awareness and critical thought are you? Here you are up&down these comments defining what collection of human cells should be "cherished" - which turns out to have the scientific definition of whatever your side claims should be. Then you object to the "safe haven" of ethics. And this n a debate that is one-hundred percent ethics! Absolutely hilarious.
(3) As a quick aside: Are the fertilized eggs in a fertility clinic "entire creatures" and "human organisms" that must be "cherished"? Is it murder if one is permitted to go unused?
(4) I only ask because you obviously, pointedly, & blatantly ignored my invitation to explain in precise terms what you believe and the full ethical and legal implications of that belief. Go figure.
(5) You just might opt for an exemption & out in the fertility clinic question. I've noted many anti-abortionist types only really begin to exercise their abstractions when control of a women's body is at stake. Funny that.
Lee,
First, apologies for this self-indulgence, but I'm back for more: You bless us with this gem:
"the beginning of life cannot be "implantation" because the great majority of animals do not reproduce using "implantation."
I'm curious why you think a definition of the beginning of human life has to apply to every mammal, reptile, amphibian, crustacean, insect, arachnid or fish. Or if you do feel compelled towards such an inconsequential definition (for reasons beyond mere convenience alone), why stop there? Why not broaden your definition to included lichen and potted plants? Amoebas and parthenogenetic creatures?
Note : Where the origin of new life doesn't involve implantation, that's because it does require implantation for life to begin. That seems pretty grade-school obvious, but damn if it didn't seem to slip right past your understanding.
Squirreloid : I'm a biologist by training. I don't need to look it up on the internet. And one of the defining traits of an organism is the ability to maintain homeostasis - an early fetus cannot do that.
By way of refutation of your homeostasis nonsense* here's a pile of papers discussing homeostatic mechanisms in the embryo, by the embryo and for the embryo.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11256169/#:~:text=Control%20and%20regulation%20of%20cellular%20homeostasis%20are%20essential,for%20normal%20embryo%20development%20and%20maintenance%20of%20viability.
* to be added to your - a human fetus is not an example of a living homo sapiens nonsense.
It's obvious that you are much more likely to be a squirrel than a biologist.
grb : Second, how gawdforsaken dead to self-awareness and critical thought are you? Here you are up&down these comments defining what collection of human cells should be "cherished" - which turns out to have the scientific definition of whatever your side claims should be.
What I actually said - in another part of the thread - was :
The point about human life is not that any and all live human cells are forms of human life that must be cherished. We don't value any and all live human cells - we kill hundreds simply by scratching our backsides, running our tongues through our teeth, or by cutting our finger and bleeding. cancerous cells are just another example of these live human cells.
Thus I was not stating my ethical opinion of the status of humans at early stages of development, I was making a statement of fact about the universal opinion of all humans about the non-cherishability of mere somatic cells, regardless of species.
It's possible that this factual assertion is wrong - there may just be someone in California that really does believe that every living cell in every living creature is morally precious. If so, I stand ready to be corrected.
But it is not a statement about my own ethical opinion as to the moral status of humans at early stages of development, because neither my opinion nor yours (which as it happens, I doubt are much different) are relevant to the biological question of why organisms are different from mere somatic cells - body parts.
I'm curious why you think a definition of the beginning of human life has to apply to every mammal, reptile, amphibian, crustacean, insect, arachnid or fish.
Because human biology is not a separate and independent domain from the rest of biology. If you have to invent a special definition of when a new organism starts its life, when you are referring to humans, that doesn't apply to other creatures then that's a hint that PR and not science is guiding you.
It's true that plants and fungi are in some respects sufficiently different from animals that sometimes biological concepts don't read across neatly from one kingdom to the next.
But for animals using sexual reproduction, the formation of the zygote is the clear and unmistakeable start of the new organism. Whether the next stage of development is the floating away of the zygote in the ocean, or in a pond, or the incubation of eggs that are laid later, or a placental connection, is irrelevant to the question of when the new organism started - in each case it started before each of these subsidiary developmental phases - at the time of the creation of the zygote.
Note : Where the origin of new life doesn't involve implantation, that's because it does require implantation for life to begin.
I've read that several times, but I'm receiving nothing. I assume there's some kind of a typo in there.
I'd be interested in seeing the citation on "the quiet part out loud", though I'm sure you'll find plenty of controversial noise to obfuscate with.
Google, apparently, is not your friend.
But if you have a try, put in the quote I quoted and you'll get lots of references. Not excluding the hardly fanatically pro-life wikipedia.
@Lee
You're confusing cellular homeostasis with organismal homeostasis. (Your link is about cellular homeostasis, which, guess what, cancer cells also do. All live cells maintain cellular homeostasis, yet they're not all separate organisms).
Also, there's certainly some point at which the fetus can maintain organismal homeostasis. But it's not at the blastocyst stage. The uterine environment is regulated and modulated by the mother's body. Now, I don't know for sure at what point the fetus becomes capable of maintaining organismal homeostasis.
Also, it's not a 'meet one criterion and done'. You have to meet *all* of them to be an organism. If the fetus can't run its metabolism on its own, then it's not a separate organism yet. (And until it's capable of breathing on its own, it can't).
I don't know why its such a hard concept to grasp - that there's some point at which the fetus stops being part of the mother and becomes a separate organism. I mean, that's kind of necessary right, we're just arguing over *when* it happens.
So if you want to use the scientific definition of organism, you need to go through the entire list of traits an organism must have, and see when each one is defensible for a fetus.
That still doesn't get you to personhood. But it might put some hard boundaries on when the fetus could be considered truly separate.
grb wrote to Lee Moore:
(3) As a quick aside: Are the fertilized eggs in a fertility clinic "entire creatures" and "human organisms" that must be "cherished"? Is it murder if one is permitted to go unused?
(4) I only ask because you obviously, pointedly, & blatantly ignored my invitation to explain in precise terms what you believe and the full ethical and legal implications of that belief. Go figure.
(5) You just might opt for an exemption & out in the fertility clinic question. I've noted many anti-abortionist types only really begin to exercise their abstractions when control of a women's body is at stake. Funny that.
This neatly summarizes my problems with how Lee has argued over this issue through multiple posts. His MO has been to try and make us present arguments for him to try and pick apart, rather than offer his own. He might have to defend the implications of his beliefs and expose inconsistencies of his own if he did that.
It's not enough that it's human life; if it were, cancerous tumors would qualify.
This is not a good argument. The point about human life is not that any and all live human cells are forms of human life that must be cherished. We don't value any and all live human cells - we kill hundreds simply by scratching our backsides, running our tongues through our teeth, or by cutting our finger and bleeding. cancerous cells are just another example of these live human cells.
The human life in question is a human life, which does not refer to any and all living human cells, but to human organisms. An organism is an entire creature.
It is potentially a human life if it is permit to continue to develop. It doesn't achieve personhood until it has those things that separate human persons from everything else -- consciousness, self awareness, and the like.
It's not even so much the human part. Why is it permissible for me to kill and eat a chicken, but not to kill and eat you? Because there are things that separate you, as a human person, from other living organisms. Those things are consciousness, self awareness and the like.
You're leaping off into ethics, because you're getting slaughtered in biology. Don't change the subject. We're taliking biology here, not ethics. So forget "persons" and "chickens"
It is potentially a human life if it is permit to continue to develop.
The same could be said about you. You have the potential to be a live human in 9 months, if you live that long. You also happen to be a live human now. i assume.
Ditto a human fetus. If it survives, in nine months it'll be a live human. it has that potential. But it also happens to be a live human now. And that's the point. It's already a live human. Not a potential human.
If you deny it's a live human, what bit is it missing ? Is it not alive ? Or is it not human ? Remember we're doing biology. No arm waving about persons, consciousness and all that trying to change the subject to ethics.
No, I'm not getting slaughtered in biology; you're funny, If you're still not getting the difference between "human" and "person" I'm not sure repeating the explanation will do any good.
And the potential to be something, and actually being something, are mutually exclusive. You can only be one at a time.
What it's missing is personhood. You can try hand waving the concept away, but it isn't going away.
A fetus is not an entire creature. It has the *potential* to be an entire creature. Just like the frame is not the entire house, but a frame under construction has the potential to be one.
Er, no, a fetus is definitely an entire creature, a biological organism.
The fact that it is lives inside another, different, biological organism does not make it other than entire. Lots of biological organisms live inside other biological organisms.
Lee: homeostasis. True parasites can maintain it. A fetus cannot.
Illocust thinks black people are equatable to zytgotes. Wish I could say that surprises me.
Non-sequitor attempt to avoid acknowledging the central question. Who isn't and who is a person with rights. You obviously have a very strongly held point of view on this question. You shouldn't avoid stating it, and more importantly, you shouldn't try to avoid trying to persuade others that your view on who isn't and who is a person with rights is correct.
I see some major differences between a 20 year old black man or woman, I get YMMV. You're as bad as the PETA activist who insists orca's at seaWorld is the same thing as chattel slavery.
You won’t answer the question either.
When to the rights of a human being accrue to the thing in the uterus?
I don't have to answer such a question to know that black people don't = embryos, just as you don't have to answer the question 'why does a human infant have rights but an adult chimp does not' to see that black infants do not = adult chimps.
To put it another way, I don't have to answer the question of exactly when and why someone should be able to work a full time job or be held criminally responsible for their acts, etc., to say that the debate about whether a 7 year old should and the debate about whether a 17 should year old are the same thing.
But you need to answer the question to try to figure out the abortion conundrum. Which is Illocust’s point, that you’re ignoring.
No you don't, any more than I have to answer if a 15 year old should be criminally liable for their actions to conclude that a 20 year old should be criminally liable for their actions but a 7 year old shouldn't.
I don’t have an answer to the abortion mess. I admit I’m just don’t have the wisdom to sort out the rights involved. You don’t either. The difference between us is that I admit it and you don’t, and simply want to throw around political bromides or whatever.
When to the rights of a human being accrue to the thing in the uterus?
When it becomes a baby. What is a baby? It is a human organism with a brain sufficiently developed to survive with the help of nurturance customarily supplied to babies outside the womb. Until then, it is not a baby.
Which by your definition is sometime before the umbilical cord is cut.
It is exactly the same arguement with PETA and eventually AI or modified life. Who is and isn't a person with rights. If something is a person with rights, those rights have to be respected. If something isn't a person with rights, there are no rights to violate.
Like I said earlier, you obviously have a very strong opinion on who isn't and who is a person with rights. You should share that opinion, and back it up with evidence and logic to persuade other people.
"It is exactly the same arguement with PETA"
Thanks for agreeing with me.
I'm confident in my opinion that chickens are not people with rights. I can back that opinion up with both facts and logic, so I have no reason not to acknowledge that it is the central debate when discussing animal rights.
I encourage you to do the same. You have a belief on who is and is not a person with rights. Nothing bad will happen to you if you state that belief and try to persuade others of it. Facing the issue head on might even persuade people who currently disagree with you.
I don't have to bring up whether black people are persons to conclude that chickens (or for that matter their fertilized eggs) are not. Again, YMMV.
I just froze multiple babies and will keep my babies frozen for decades and most likely throw several in a dumpster eventually!! Maniacal laugh maniacal laugh!!
Yeah, the idea that embryos are persons like those of us writing here leads to all kinds of major ways our lives would be impacted. IVF sounds horrible if that's the case. Also, we would probably have to do things like have women pass a pregnancy test before they drink in a bar (it's negligent behavior like driving a born kid around after having drinks if embryo's are the same), engage in certain exercise, etc..
I can see a lot of potential problems if the full rights of personhood are bestowed on embryos, but I think you're taking it a bit too far. We don't test for all potential crimes that might be happening. If you're drinking at a bar with a friend no one comes by periodically to test your drinks in case you poisoned each other.
Our system is more about punishing after the fact than crime prevention at all costs.
Are you sort of vaguely aware of the commutative principle? Because I get the impression you aren't.
Saying that blacks are the equal of embryos, and saying embryos are the equal of blacks, is the same thing. So why pretend Illocust meant to demote blacks to unpeople, rather than promote embryos to people?
Are you under the impression that you're being clever? Because you're not.
"Are you under the impression that you're being clever? Because you're not."
Every day this guy ups his claim to the least self aware person in the universe.
You might think your math property shows something but it proves my point. Illocust is equating blacks and zygotes. If you can't get the problem with that consider why most black people would be offended by a PETA spokesperson saying 'the question of what to do about how chickens are caged and treated is like the question we faced of what to do about how black persons were caged and treated.' When they get upset, tell them you're just promoting the chicken!
I get that the comparison in your example might be offensive to a lot of people, but it really shouldn't matter when discussing the moral and legal issues involved. Either chickens should have the full rights of personhood or they shouldn't. Whatever rational arguments there might be on either side, the fact that black people were given those rights after slavery is immaterial.
Same thing with zygotes. They either should have the full rights of personhood or they shouldn't based on whatever rational arguments you've got. There's no correlation to be had specifically with black people that doesn't apply to all people. Black people don't morally have the rights of personhood BECAUSE they were slaves. They were always people. We were just late to recognize the rights they should have always had.
Hell I wasn't even saying either. I was just saying the debates revolved around the same question. I can ask two separate people if they have a cat without expecting the same answer for both.
I read the thread back and I think I understand your initial point when responding to a post listing some "slam dunk" arguments in favor of the right to abortions. You responded that all of those arguments would also apply to the right to keep slaves... IF and only IF you didn't consider slaves to be individuals with competing liberty interests.
And you're correct that making a pro choice argument is at the very least incomplete if you don't actually address the one central premise that the pro life movement believes as gospel; that the fetus has individual and competing rights with the woman who wants to have an abortion.
Then we get into the mucky concept of when personhood should legally begin, but regardless of when we decide that is there is still a compelling rights issue argument in favor of abortion rights. Or at least compelling to me.
If some guy with a barely functioning brain and no ill intent wanders into my house I have the right to have him removed in the least violent way possible, even if I'm the one who was reckless enough to leave all of my doors unlocked. Fortunately in that scenario we generally have the means at our disposal to remove the guy without any killing. If that same guy innocently wandered into my body, I can't say I'd change the rules. But maybe that's just me.
So if you ask me what should the legal distinction be between a newborn and a pre-born, I'm fine with no distinction at all. If you want to get rid of a newborn baby you must do so in the safest way possible for the baby. You give it up for adoption. If you want to get rid of a pre-born, same thing. The the likelihood of the baby's survival will vary depending on when you have it removed, no matter how gentle you can possibly go about it, but as technology advances I'm sure those odds will improve.
And I know, the mother must have engaged in behavior that yielded a nontrivial chance of this happening. Yeah, I can't say my argument is perfect. But whose is? On the other hand the sperm and egg that formed the thing would have surely died anyway had she not engaged in that behavior. And if she does abort soon enough, the sum of those parts won't feel any different about it than the countless eggs and sperm that never even made it this far.
I'm not saying this would be a winning argument in court. But I am just saying...
Yeah, the personhood issue, and if full rights should be given to something that doesn't currently have them, is the issue everyone is really concerned with. But is that that legal issue being put before the court?
As far as I know this is being presented as a state having the right to pass any kind of law it wants so long as it isn't prohibited by the federal constitution, either explicitly or how it's interpreted by the court.
Is Mississippi even arguing what the state interest actually is in changing the deadline from viability to 15 weeks? I mean, we all know that it's because they want establish the rights of personhood onto a pre-viable fetus, but do they have to establish what gives them the authority to do so? Is it merely that because the Constitution doesn't expressly prohibit states from doing so?
Because if personhood isn't clearly legally established, and this is not in fact a conflict of rights issue, then it is clearly a violation of the mother's liberty to prevent her from removing something from her body that has no legal right to remain there.
And if it is up to individual states to apply the full rights of personhood onto entities that currently don't have that designation, then in theory could a state not give those rights to cattle, making the rancher/cow conflict a competing rights issue, where obviously murder of the cow would obviously be illegal? Is there any established limiting principle to this power?
And yes, I know it's a crazy comparison. You don't have to point that out to me. It's an extreme analogy used to try and get a clear answer about the separation of government powers, and who gets to assign personhood rights where they don't currently exist.
Maybe that power actually does belong to the states. Before the 13th amendment passed, I assume slave states had the option of repealing slavery and giving the full rights and protections of personhood onto African Americans.
I'm not trying to make an argument about who should have that power. I'm asking if it's legally clear who does have that power.
"As far as I know this is being presented as a state having the right to pass any kind of law it wants so long as it isn't prohibited by the federal constitution, either explicitly or how it's interpreted by the court."
10th amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
So, yeah, setting aside the as yet unsettled state constitutional issues, that pretty much IS how it works.
Okay, so if a state bestows the full rights of personhood onto cows, would those cows automatically have full federal constitutional rights, with the federal government having no say in the matter? If so, what happens if a cow wanders across state lines? Does it retain the rights of personhood and equal protection and all that fun stuff in any other state?
If that's the case, then a fetus who is granted the full rights of personhood in any state would retain constitutional protection anywhere in the country. Is that right?
Or is it that if a state bestows the status of personhood onto a new class of entities, the state gets to make all the rules about what rights they do or don't have?
I wonder how that would affect a census. Perhaps only counted as people for state purposes but not federally.
State legislation still must pass the rational basis test.
Which would be better termed the "not gibbering insanity" test. The only way you fail rational basis is if the judge concludes only a madman could entertain the law being reasonable.
Oh, I was going to say that if Roe is overturned and it's left up to the states to bestow the rights of personhood on living organisms as they see fit, Florida could bestow those rights onto certain viruses to make vaccinations a conflict of individual rights.
But it would be just like a lawyer to decide this is gibberish insanity.
Did the 14th Amendment come out after or before the 10th Amendment?
I don't think Roe or Casey were correctly decided as a matter of constitutional law, but the 10th Amendment was modified by the 14th Amendment since the 14A "prohibited [powers] to the states".
This is more apt than you appreciate. The slaves in this analogy are the women. Can the state require you to loan me your organs so long as I can show that you will die if I don't do so?
Yes. But I can't charge you for renting the organs because that would be evil.
Bold of you to assume that only religious people and religious reasons can make someone think a fetus, at some point before birth, is A Person.
(I'm both a libertarian and generally think abortions, at least early ones, are fine, note.
I'm just ... sick of people pretending it's "just religion" or "about keeping women down".
Because I know enough people who feel the other way, and have listened to them, to know that they're simply of the opinion that it rounds to murder, and not "because my pastor said Jesus said so!"
Try telling someone who just miscarried "it was just a lump of cells, not a person, why u sad?!?" - and when you wake up from being slapped unconscious, reflect on why they might feel that way, and that that does not, in fact, depend on "religious gobbley-gook", and is not obviously simply false.
Neither pure reason nor scientific information can help us here, either; "personhood" is not something we can measure or determine from first principles.
Any attempt to short-circuit the debate to a smug certainty is faulty.)
In that case there should be a law that determines how sad u be when you miscarry.
As an empirical matter atheists polled favor abortion rights 9 to 1 (this of course doesn't negate your abstract point).
"religious gobbley-gook"
No, its science. There is a human being destroyed.
Funny how most of the people who actually do this specific branch of science disagree with you. Your belief that it's a human being is a religious belief.
Funny how that group self selects.
Talk frequently with a doctor who did some abortions in his early career, then quit, in horror, at realizing what he had been doing. That’s the sort of self selection I am talking about.
Funny how, if you kill them professionally, you don't think of them as human.
If you did, would you do that for a living?
By 'branch of science' I think you and Bruce read Kry to be saying 'field of medical practice.' Those are two quite different things.
Ackshully, your belief that there's some (mystical, magical) breakover point where the developing byproduct of a human egg and sperm suddenly becomes a "human being" (rather than, say, a toadstool or a space alien) is a religious belief. One that has led to the development of a carefully-calibrated catechism and routine robust declarations of faith to try to obfuscate and explain away basic, grade-school biology.
Funny how people who actually do biology for a living mostly disagree with you.
Which biologist thinks that a human fetus at 10 weeks isn't biologically a human being?
As a biologist, i'm not sure I even know or have known any biologists who believe embryos are relevantly the same as the adult or even juvenile in the way you believe. Biologists would say a 'human embryo' rather than a 'human being'. (Okay, they wouldn't actually say "human being" but Homo sapiens or similar, depending on context, but you get the gist).
Biologists understand fetuses as developing *into* a (human, or fish, or whatever), not as being that thing.
Fine. But I doubt they agree that they are magically transformed into a human being when the umbilical cord is cut.
Biologists understand fetuses as developing *into* a (human, or fish, or whatever), not as being that thing.
Is that so ? Biologists do not think a human fetus at 6 months is a living example of homo sapiens ? They think it is in the process of developing into one ?
At what stage, according to biologists, does a human develop into an example of homo sapiens ? How about wolves ? At what stage do they become an example of canis lupus ? And since you mention fish, when does the noble Carcharodon carcharias become a Carcharodon carcharias rather than something else ?
This is well past gaslighting - you're machine gunning your own feet.
While i hesitate to speak for all biologists as a class, I'd guess most of them would say that ontogeny is complicated, and there's no sharp dividing line. It's a process of becoming. At one end we definitely have a fully formed separate organism. At the other we have a fusion of two cells. There is no 'a miracle occurs' suddenly at any point. It's a gradual transition over an extended timeframe.
The very idea that there's some sharp line it suddenly becomes fully human would be laughable to biologists. Ontogeny is one of the messy parts of biology.
You may as well ask when your house became a house? Which drywall or bracing made it now a house when it wasn't before? Or when does a wood sailing ship become a ship? Which board being nailed down made it a ship? At the end of the process, you have a house or a ship. At the beginning, you have a bunch of lumber and other materials. There's no 'miracle' somewhere in between where it suddenly goes from a collection of stuff to a house or a ship. It's a process of becoming.
(Dig into the weeds on 'what is a species' sometimes - biology has lots of complicated and messy reality to deal with. Edge cases are everywhere.)
Come on, K-2,
Whether it is legally a person is one question.
Whether is is a human being as determinable genetically is quite another.
Your comment is at best disingenuous.
Don, I don't see that that gets you very much. Granted, legal personhood and biological personhood are not necessarily the same thing (though there is some overlap). But pre-viability, I don't think it's a person in either category, and at any event, the question of whether abortion should be legal will be resolved by legal definitions. Hopefully the law looks to biology for guidance, but the answer to the question will ultimately be a legal answer.
Let me get this straight.....
You don't think a fetus at 10 weeks is biologically a human being?
What exactly do you think it is?
A fetus.
That’s like saying “that’s not a human being, it’s a toddler”. Or “that’s not a human being, it’s a teenager”. Actually might be some truth to that last one.
Any way, those are all stages of development.
I’ll ask again what illocust did - when in the development do you think that the rights of a human being attach? It’s a simple question.
I'm not sure that helps much, if your kids asked you to get a Xmas tree and you brought home a pine seed telling them it's still a tree just in a different stage of development, it ain't gonna make decorating it more palatable for them...
What a stupid fucking analogy that has no application here at all. Think they’d make me kill it?
You’re twisting yourself into knots trying to avoid acknowledging a simple point. As if you’re afraid doing so will make you a Trumpalo or something.
Let’s try it this way. There’s a point if, left undisturbed, a zygote or fetus will reach a point where it has rights that we can’t take away. Yes? No?
And it's a question I already answered above. See my comment at 12:55 p.m.:
"My opinion on the subject has already been aired here multiple times. The short version is that in order to determine who is, and is not, a person, you first have to define person by showing what sets human persons apart. It's not enough that it's human life; if it were, cancerous tumors would qualify. The issue is personhood, and what distinguishes personhood from other life forms that aren't persons (such as all those human cells you killed last time you scratched your nose).
"The answer to that question is tied up in consciousness, self awareness, self will, things that an early fetus clearly lacks. A fetus generally acquires them at around the time of viability. At which point, it has achieved personhood."
I think the differences between a cancerous tumor and a fetus are readily apparent to all except those desperately seeking clever-sounding ways to convince others (and maybe even themselves) of their religious belief that until some arbitrary day on the calendar a human fetus is merely a clump of cells that can be cast into the garbage at will.
Actually might be some truth to that last one.
ROTFLMAO....so true, Bevis. I think about my (now grown) children as teenagers, and I wondered the same myself once or twice.
"A fetus."
What kind?
Bird? Bear? What?
If it's not a person, it's irrelevant to this conversation.
Every cell in your body is a) alive, b) human. That doesn't grant it the full protections of an independent, whole human.
But even if it did, there's no right for one human to confiscate another's to survive. No where else do we recognize the right to forcibly invade someone's body to extract nutrients without probable cause of a crime.
That's where this 'It's a full moral human being' argument runs aground. Even if it is, being located inside *your* body gives you the right to evict it from the premises. Using viability as a line where that ends is a more than reasonable compromise.
Oh dear. Your parents really did need to spend a bit more time with you explaining how this stuff works.
" Your belief that it's a human being is a religious belief."
What is is then?
Fish? Snake? Bird? Possum?
Are you saying a zygote that is a product of a human male and human female is "not" a human being? Not a member of homo sapiens?
No, there is no doubt that a fetus is a human being. Biology is quite clear on this. For any mammal, as soon as conceived, it exists as a child of the same species as the mother.
What you are arguing about is whether or not a human fetus is enough of a person to rate legal protections under the Constitution and existing laws.
Biology wouldn't use the word 'child' in this context at all, nor would it use the term 'human being'. "Human" would generally just mean 'genetically human', which would indeed apply just as much to cancer cells as fetuses.
As soon as fertilization occured, biologists would call it a fetus. After birth, they would call it an infant (or other, taxon specific term, depending on species.) No biologist would confuse an infant for a fetus or vice versa. Biologically, there's a profound difference between the two states.
Semantics won't get anyone where you want them to go who isn't already there.
This is a philosophical question.
Anyone who can see the sense in someone who walks into a hospital room to see a loved one in a permanent vegetative state and saying 'that's not my grandad (or whatever,) he's long gone' realizes that something could be a 'human being' in some technical sense but not be a person.
But this is all kabuki anyway, anyone who has read Bob talking about things like self defense law or war knows he holds life cheaply indeed. This is about something else with him, I leave it to the reader to guess what.
So if that someone were to, say, whip out a knife and plunge it into the heart of that "non-person," all good?
So if I, with my grandfather's legal permission, pull the plug is that murder?
Jumping to a different hypothetical when you get painted into a corner on the first one is generally considered poor form.
But what the hey, I'm fascinated -- how do you propose to tie your new "legal permission of the non-person" gambit into the abortion context?
A tendency to ask questions without answering them is considered poor form (a sign of a troll, no?).
You can drop the legal permission, say it's my spouse and there was none given.
Asking questions of others and not answering them myself isn't poor form. In fact, if I know the answer then either a) I don't need to ask and thus won't or b) I ask because I need the other person to answer so as to be able to pin down their position so that the conversation can continue honestly and candidly. The former you never see. The latter is good form as it is seeking clarity from someone you are engaged with.
They were both bucking each other's hypo. Standard Internet form, but not great for self reflection/moving the conversation along.
"my grandfather's legal permission"
Most would have no problem with abortion if the unborn child grants written permission
Parents routinely make decisions for children without the latter's permission.
No, because you don't lose your personhood once you have it.
Ah, so there's a "no backsies" recital in the canon. Is there a chapter and verse you can shoot our way so we can verify?
"A tendency to ask questions without answering them is considered poor form (a sign of a troll, no?)."
See?
No, as further evidenced by sparkstable's response above I think you're the only one that sees your Very Clever Point (aka attempted distraction from your collapsing hypos). The rest of us ask questions of others due to some combination of (1) the answer being solely in their possession; and/or (2) their particular answer being relevant to the ongoing dialogue.
But you do you.
so there's a "no backsies" recital in the canon
This would not be crazy, your choice of language aside. Reliance interest is a lot like this and is part of due process analysis.
Just skipping over for a second the fact that you haven't tried to articulate what the reliance interest could possibly be here and I doubt you can, the more fundamental problem is that reliance interests are held by people, for all sorts of definitional reasons. Queenie's position in this thread is (or was prior to abandonment, anyway) that the human body on the ventilator with no brainwaves is no longer a person.
If grandpa in that vegetative state needs to be inside me in order to survive, yeah I think removing him should be within my rights.
And, suppose that at present your grandad was in a vegetative coma, but you were aware that all you'd have to do is not unplug him for a few months and he'd wake right up, because he was in the process of recovering from whatever put him in that bed?
Still OK to plunge that knife into him?
The example wasn't to say persons born in vegetative state are the same exact thing as an embryo, it's to demonstrate that there can be scientifically technical human beings not thought to be persons.
To your point or question I think a person in a permanent vegetative state is in actually in a better position than an embryo to claim personhood rights, the latter has never been conscious or self-aware.
Why would no current consciousness but past consciousness be more persony than no current consciousness but a very high probability of consciousness in the relatively near future ?
Perhaps there is no objectively satisfying answer. And perhaps we should weep for every potential sprem/egg combination that could have achieved consciousness if only they'd had the opportunity to meet each other at the right time. But we don't. Maybe we're all just monsters.
'For a state to take control of a woman's body and require that she go through pregnancy and childbirth'
Did the State rape her? Did someone else rape her?
No?
Then she took control of her body, and decided to create a new human being, one who has rights just as important as hers.
in particular, that person has a right to bodily integrity that is at least as strong as hers.
So no, you don't get to murder your baby because you're unhappy the way your decisions turned out.
"Bodily integrity" requires "bodily responsibility", which means if you chose to act in a certain way, you, and no one else, must bear the consequences of your choices
So then you'd insist on rape exemptions?
Greg J : "Did someone else rape her?"
Which is always the point where the whole womb-control theocracy falls apart, because - yes - Greg has an exception for rape. Hell, he might even be generous enough to stretch it to incest as well. Note he says, "then she took control of her body, and decided to create a new human being". Given most forms of contraception have failure rates, and most abortions are for unintended pregnancies, that's not remotely true, but but I bet our Greg is done with exemptions.
Which begs the question how a rape exception is justified if abortion is the killing of an innocent life. The answer is pretty repugnant, so watch out if you have a queasy stomach: Your Greg-type, you see, thinks his faux-righteousness is justified because we're dealing with sluts here. If the harlot had just kept her legs closed, she wouldn't need an abortion, would she?
Mostly this belief stays hidden, even as the Greg-type defines abortion down to ever smaller microscopic entities (reaching beyond the head of a pin). But anytime you see a large volume of anti-choice views, you always glimpse it popping-up here and there. Why bother with nuance? Why consult common sense? Why consider women's perspective or life? After all, it's the hussies' own damn fault - to hell with her.
I think it's one of the core-beliefs of the anti-abortion movement.
"After all, it's the hussies' own damn fault - to hell with her."
Yup. This.
Most pro-life people don't care about mothers or their children once outside the womb, it's just a way to control/punish the former.
Here's where the argument gets iffy to me. If you think the mother must give up her right to abortion because she voluntarily engaged in an activity with a non-trivial chance of getting pregnant, you must obviously make an exception for rape (unless of course she attended a party at a notoriously rapey fraternity dressed like she wanted it. If that risky behavior doesn't strip someone of their rights when bad consequences happen, perhaps we should rethink the premise here).
But if you believe that a fetus is both morally and legally a person then how can you justify killing it no matter how it got there? The fetus committed no crime and should be entitled to equal protection under the law. Same as a rape baby after its born. What kind of monster would strip the right to life from a baby based on the nature of its conception?
Failure rates are a known thing. If I commit an act knowing it has the potential to put another person at risk, and that outcome comes about... then I am liable to protect that person from the risk. I don't get to throw up my hands and call an "Ooops!" and let whatever negative is about to befall them to happen. And further, I don't get to kill them to remove my responsibility from having done something that put them in that place to begin with... EVEN IF it was never my intention to do so. Known possible outcomes of specific acts aren't accidents.
Do the specific odds of the negative outcome happening based on the activity come into play when gauging personal responsibility?
I mean, there are a great many known possible bad outcomes every time you get into your car. Are you equally responsible for all them because you knew any and all were possible?
Does a woman who is using contraception get different abortion rights than a woman who has unprotected sex? Or are they same in your mind because responsibility begins and ends with known possible outcomes, regardless of the degree of recklessness? If that's the case then there should be absolutely no exception for rape. Getting raped is an extremely well known possible outcome every time a woman leaves the house. And sometimes when she doesn't.
It seems to me you a conflict at play between 2 persons natural right to life as reinforced by the due process clause in the 14th amendment. The life of the mother and the unborn baby are in conflict. When does an unborn baby achieve the status of person as stated in the 14th amendment? Some say at conceptions, or heart beat or 14 weeks or 22 weeks or 1 minute before birth. Viability is a very difficult measure because it is a moving target with advances in medical technology and definition of what viability actually means. Since I don't think the constitution actually speaks of viability (yet?) it should be left up to the states to decide.
Maybe it should be, but is it an absolute understood legal principle that the Supreme Court must abide by? It seems uncontroversial in principle that the constitution grants us a wide range of unspecified liberties so long as they don't compete with the liberties of others or defy a compelling state interest. And since the Constitution recognizes no competing rights of the unborn, until those rights are somehow legally granted, the right to an abortion is the obviously correct interpretation of the Constitution.
My assumption here is that the liberty to engage in an activity without conflict of any compelling state interest can more easily be inferred from the Constitution than can be the rights of personhood to anyone or anything that doesn't explicitly have those stated rights.
So then we are saying that individual states do legally have the power of bestowing personhood rights at their own discretion. That's the only possible way to create any state interest at all in restricting abortions.
I'm just trying to figure out if this just something we think should be the case, or just is the case uncontroversially.
So in theory states can bestow those rights and create competing rights issues whenever they choose and the Supreme Court would be objectively wrong to challenge it. If Florida wants to bestow personhood onto a virus in order to create a competing rights issue vaccines, that would be just fine under this principle, right?
If not, is there any legal standard for granting rights of personhood?
Perhaps, it is the end of the story for Roe, of course it completely ignores the fact there is another human involved here, or at least presupposes that no rights attach to the fetus until at least viability, if not birth.
But if you are going to say that the 14th amendment's guarantee of liberty is such a robust guarantee of personal liberty, then we have to include the liberty to be free of vaccine mandates, maybe also zoning laws, it would protect freedom of contract and restore Lochner, reverse Wickard, and much more.
Which just goes to show that liberty to the left means control unless it is for some super special carve out for them... it is ends derived rather than a principle unto itself.
I don't have a problem with any of those consequences... Actually, I'd affirmatively support all of them.
I'm not on the left, and I'm just fine with the liberties you mention.
But whether I agree with it or not, in all those cases there is an argument for a compelling state interest in denying those liberties. I don't buy the arguments but they must exist for the Supreme Court to have ruled as they did.
When it comes to restricting a woman's liberty to have a safe medical procedure, there is no compelling state interest UNLESS you establish a competing rights issue with the unborn, who have no recognized legal rights as far as the constitution is concerned. So the question becomes, who has the power to grant the rights of personhood where they previously didn't exist? The states? Is that an established fact as far as the Supreme Court is concerned? If so, I don't think I've ever heard this explicitly stated.
If and only if we understand how the rights of personhood legally are granted, and we establish as fact that they have been granted to the unborn, does a constitutional right to abortion even begin to become murky.
You quote the 14th Amendment accurately. The attorney skipped the word 'life' which precedes the list. That is not a frog or carrot in a woman's womb. It is a living human. And its first unalienable right is life.
The liberty explanation ('for a state to control a woman's body') falls on the grounds that only in the rarest cases of women seeking abortion was pregnancy forced on them. In all the others they had the liberty right to avoid being pregnant.
All nice and clever lawyer-talk from her. It impressed the blog post author. It will go great in a movie or TV script. But only because it ignores biology as well as logic. It's a Sophist's argument.
The biggest "penumbra" is that the unborn have rights. They're not mentioned in the Constitution. They were not contemplated as persons either by the original Framers, or the Framers of the Fourteenth or Nineteenth Amendments.
A strict constructionist, and even an originalist, would say that women have the right to abortion up until birth. Period.
Yes, we are aware that Democrats think that "women have the right to abortion up until birth. Period."
Decent people think differently.
That's not what captcrisis said. Like, at all.
It's also not what most Democrats think.
True. Almost everyone is venturing into "penumbra" territory here. The difference is, Democrats have already signed onto the penumbra idea, whereas Republicans go all the way into penumbras just on this one issue.
"It's also not what most Democrats think."
Sure it is.
According to pew, "The vast majority of liberal Democrats and Democratic leaners support legal abortion (89%), as do seven-in-ten conservative and moderate Democrats (72%)."
[Issue polls are garbage but you made the assertion]
That's of course not what was said. Patent dishonesty.
What could you possibly know about how decent people think?
I don't think anyone is arguing that the constitution grants any rights of personhood onto the unborn. There are states that technically allow abortions up until birth and they are not in violation of the constitution.
The only question is, does the constitution prohibit the states from giving the rights of personhood to the unborn (or cows or trees or rocks or anything else I suppose). I honestly don't know if there is a legal principle when it comes to granting those rights.
If the individual states do in fact have the power to assign the rights of personhood onto fetuses of cancer cells or God given goiters, then it becomes a competing rights issue. But even then, there are libertarian arguments for the woman's right to remove an intruder from her body, regardless of how it got there or what its chances of survival are somewhere else. We can approach the concept that one must have consent to be in a woman's body, and consent can be withdrawn at any time, even if perviously granted. I'm not saying that should be the end of the discussion. If you choose to remove someone who is stuck inside your body, but he can't be physically removed without surgery that will no doubt kill him, should you have the legal right to do so? I don't know. But it's still a question even if both parties have rights.
"There are states that technically allow abortions up until birth and they are not in violation of the constitution."
Well, haven't yet been found in violation of the Constitution, anyway. I personally think that New York is on some pretty thin ice, arranging things so that abortions can take place even shortly after live birth. (By removing all safeguards against it happening.)
Yes, I can see any post birth negligence to be some kind of rights violation. I think it's pretty explicit in the constitution that being born conveys constitutionally protected rights. It says that once you are born in this country you're a citizen even.
But is there anything in the Constitution that even implies rights begin before birth?
"The only question is, does the constitution prohibit the states from giving the rights of personhood to the unborn (or cows or trees or rocks or anything else I suppose). I honestly don't know if there is a legal principle when it comes to granting those rights."
The answer is obviously "no" -- if it infringes on rights of persons whose life, liberty etc. are guaranteed under the Constitution.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the constitution grants any rights of personhood onto the unborn.
Au contraire. Prof Adler had a post up about it only a few days ago :
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/11/29/why-the-14th-amendment-does-not-prohibit-abortion/
The biggest "penumbra" is that the unborn have rights.
This is a confusion, though an understandable one. If the unborn don't have rights, that doesn't mean that other people have the right to kill them. The government can perfectly well pass a law criminalising the killing of certain species of owl, for conservation reasons, and if it does, then you don't have a right to kill those owls, even though those owls do not have even a smidgeon of a hint of a right not to be killed.
So no constitutional rights for the unborn does not imply a constitutional right for the mother to kill her unborn child.
Of course if there were a constitutional right for the unborn not to be kiled, then that might inform the legal debate about whether mothers have a constitutional right to kill their unborn children. The former probably implies the absence of the latter. And vice versa of course.
With a few exceptions, it is the claimed moral right of the unborn to live (not a supposed legal right) that is appealed to, as a reason to reject the idea that there is an unspoken constitutional right to kill them.
The owl is not inside the woman’s body, feeding off it.
Although your comment has no conceivable relevance to the point I made, I feel duty bound to assist your biological education.
The fetus is not inside the woman's body "feeding off it" either. You do not "feed off" the pizza delivery guy, or if you do, Jeffrey, watch your back when you're in the pokey.
You are fed by the delivery guy. The delivery guy goes to a lot of trouble to bring food to you. But the food is not him. And so it was with your mother. Her body went to great trouble, first in the exertions required to conceive, then in fattening up her endometrium to receive you, and then in constructing the maternal portion of the placenta to pass nutrients etc to you.
You might say that none of this - except the first step perhaps - was a deliberate conscious choice* by your mother, but she did it all the same. Not only did she lay out a welcome mat, but she took you in and fed you. But not by allowing you to peck at her flesh.
*Perhaps this is a useful reminder that we all do plenty of very important things that are not within our conscious control, thereby throwing into doubt the central importance of consciousness in evaluating the worth of humans.
I don't think biology is the place to look in either direction, and reject both fetus as parasite and fetus as...pizza enthusiast.
But in this comment you come as close to admitting that abortion is about controlling women's sexuality as anyone I've seen on here.
What a vivid imagination you have.
I'm simply describing the unarguable fact that during pregnancy the fetus feeds on food delivered by the mother's baby support system, and does not actually eat the mother herself.
(a) are you disagreeing with the facts as stated ?
(b) what on Earth has stating those unarguable facts got to do with controlling women's sexuality ?
Okay that's fair. So there is no competing rights issue here. It's just a matter of providing a state interest compelling enough to restrict liberty. In the case of owl killing I assume it has something to do with their scarcity.
So in theory a state could criminalize masturbation by saying you can't intentionally kill sperm. And since the right to masterbation isn't specifically articulated in the constitution, a Supreme Court decision to strike down a law like this would be objectively wrong and worth overturning. Is that correct?
Justice Barrett's comments on safe haven laws and adoption might indicate she isn't buying into the "life-altering consequences" part of Rikelman's argument.
She has 7 kids and manages to be a Supreme Court justice. I almost thought her comeback to Rikelman would be "you know i have 7 kids, 2 of which are adopted, know all about pregnancy, right?"
I think that would have been an (even more?) obtuse answer (granted 'I made it under those circumstances, why can't everyone else' is a common conservative tenet).
Funny thing. Our neighbors two doors down have 5 kids, and somehow they're making it, and they're as firmly middle class as I am. Must be a matter of what your priorities are.
Doubling up on your obtuseness is kind of an argument I guess.
The existence of someone (actually multiples) who do succeed under certain circumstances is actual proof that those circumstances are not deterministic on life. As such, expectations can be made knowing success is a real possibility.
It would be funny if she were the one writing the opinion. But too important for the junior member of the court. My bet is that Roberts writes it, and may even change his vote to do it, so that Thomas can’t. Roberts would likely do something narrow, while Thomas would blow the whole thing up.
Still waiting for Thomas to be assigned (or even assign himself) an important opinion. For someone on the Court almost 30 years, his situation is unique.
It's not quite that easy, sure Roberts can manage to assign himself the opinion, but he can lose the opinion and turn his majority opinion into a dissent or partial concurrence by trying to write it too narrowly.
If there is 5 votes for reversal of Roe, if the Chief isn't writing what they want to hear then someone else will, gladly.
The "adoption as an alternative to abortion" theory is an appropriate response to the argument that abortion rights are necessary to ensure equal protection for women. Whether it is an effective response is something I will allow others to debate.
But "adoption as an alternative to abortion" is irrelevant to the Casey holding that the constitutional right to liberty ensures a constitutional protection for abortion.
Post's post effectively raises the possibility that there will not be 5 Justices willing to start hacking away at the Court's liberty precedents -- especially if they can simultaneously preserve some "liberty" protection for abortion rights and scrap the Roe viability standard.
I guess she's lucky. (Or, more likely, rich enough to have good medical care.)
I'll just leave this here:
Why Do Hundreds of US Women Die Annually in Childbirth?
"more likely, rich enough to have good medical care"
Of course.
"Her father was a prominent lawyer for Shell Oil. "
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a34173725/amy-coney-barrett-views-abortion-religion-guns-health-care/
Ooh. Big Oil!!!!!!
I bet the Kochs are involved here too.
Stop being silly, I'm just noting she was born relatively well off, and so that answer would be obtuse.
Hundreds of women dying in child birth is de minimis, as compared to the number who died in childbirth up to less than a century ago, when it was closer to maybe 5% of deliveries. In our family burial plot up in MI, we have several male ancestors with a wife buried on either side - the first one dying in childbirth, and a younger replacement mother to raise his kids. Just the way it was back then. A couple hundred a year, out of hundreds of millions in this country is a medical miracle.
And justices have always been old as fuck and so in 1973 that would have been their perspective. So initially Roe was thought to be a fundamental part of the women’s right move…I just don’t see that as holding up in 2021.
Not compared to contemporary standards in other countries.
Oh, and and maybe a million or so fetuses/babies are killed every year by abortion in this country. Very clearly one of the big reasons that the Black portion of our population is plummeting as a percentage, since they are the demographic that engages in abortion as birth control the most.
Iirc with African Americans abortion is more likely after having a baby…so I very seriously doubt outlawing abortion results in more babies it will result in more women getting on birth control.
Ooh, boy, where to start.
Lot of complaining about 800 deaths per year, but when you've got to complain about straws, well...
First off, they're comparing all pre- and post-partum deaths (total) to live births - which includes deaths for non-live births, as well as deaths not related to the pregnancy or birth. Due to the differing definitions of "live birth" (as well as the differing demographics related) this produces different numbers in different states.
As example of what should not be included but it, the largest cause of deaths in white women was "mental health" - such as suicide.
But the biggest WTF is the failure to account for mother health status to begin with. In case you haven't noticed, there is a serious problem with people in the US being fat. It's the reason cardio deaths are so high, despite the survival rates being the highest in the world.
On the other hand, if hospitals really are not ready for treating hemorrhaging - one of the historically most common causes of childbirth deaths - then they certainly deserve serious criticism. It seems so very unlikely that I find it difficult to believe it is true in the sense they imply.
"The Conservative Case for Murdering Infants" - David "French" Post
If you don’t know the difference between a fetus and an infant, stay out of the discussion.
fetus is Latin for child or offspring
You are tedious, Fetus is defined as an unborn offspring.
How is it conservative to say that when someone else wants to inhabit your body and extract material from it, their right to do that supersedes your bodily autonomy?
But then again conservatives also love dictating what you can't put into your body too.
Funny how vaccines come up and suddenly they're the party of bodily autonomy. Fucking hypocrites.
There is no hypocrisy. Conservatives are equally opposed to forcing syringes into people's arms as they are forcing curettes into fetal skulls.
Framing it as liberty is also important because you have Skinner v. Oklahoma saying that the state can't compel sterilization. If the right to procreate is that important that a state can't intervene so to should the liberty interest in choosing to continute that procreation. I know the dividing line at "viability" is not grounded in the text of the Constitution, but prior to that point you only have potential human life versus an actual human life.
So dad can kill the baby after it's born? The right to control your own procreation out weighs the right to life in your arguement after all.
That or you are base stealing in an attempt to avoid the central question of the debate, which has and always will be at what point do we gain our rights.
No, my personal opinion is that once a fetus is "viable" (defined as capable of life outside of the mother and not some Josh Blackman definition that involves whether the person can fend for himself/herself/themself) then it has all of the same constitutional rights as you or I and the taking of a life without due process of law is murder.
That’s not the case at all. Several states currently permit abortion up to the moment of birth.
A viable fetus is exactly like an extraterritorial alien. The Due Process Clause lacks both “prenatal application” (as Roe put it) and “extraterritorial application” (as a different line of cases put it).
Consider aliens outside US territory. Congress can choose to grant them rights. But it can equally well choose to declare war or initiate an undeclared covert action and kill them. It can deny them visas for any reason or no reason. The fact that government CAN protect them if it chooses doesn’t mean it has to.
"Several states currently permit abortion up to the moment of birth."
That is bizarre, but it is what it is. Just what is it about going through those last few inches that makes magic happen?
Okay, snarks aside, the one thing viability has going for it, is that it can definitely change as medical technology progresses.
It would be nice if in the process of upholding the viability standard it would prohibit killing medically viable fetuses except in extreme circumstances.
While NY doesn't technically permit it, in addition to permitting abortion right up to the moment of birth, in 2019 they abolished all protections against abortion occurring shortly after birth, too. They had formerly required an observer for all post viability abortions, who was to make sure that if a live birth occurred, the baby was given proper medical care. Now if a live birth should happen by mistake, the abortionist can take care of it without witnesses. In fact, it's not even clear that doing so would be illegal, all prior legal references to such infants have been repealed.
"technically"
When someone like Brett uses this kind of hedge word it's doing Herculean labors level work usually.
It doesn't seem any more complcated than the distinction between facial challenges and as applied challenges.
A law that is never in practice enforced, exists technically, but not practically.
So the father can compel an abortion before that point?
You're obviously trolling because it's perfectly obvious that the burdens of pregnancy are not equally distributed between the father and mother. Granting that a woman has a right to control her body not only doesn't entail that a man has an equal right to control it, it actually precludes the idea that a man would get to control her body.
But you knew that.
But if it's her body and her choice to control, why does he have to pay for "her body" and "her choice" for the next 18 years?
Cos he had his fun and now he must pay for it 🙂
He doesn't have to pay, generally, until it's not her body anymore. He made his choice when he sent his sperm aswimming. Is it completely equitable? No. But, then, all of these issues are about balancing imperfect choices. An unintended (by anyone) and unwanted (by one of the parents) is not an ideal situation to start. But the pregnancy is a phenomenon wholly inside the woman's body, so her interests trump that of all other adult humans, even the father/sperm donor.
If and when born, however, the people who participated in making the baby have responsibilities to that baby.
But, you knew all this. Like Michael P, you're just trolling.
The state already interferes with procreation. Beginning fairly late in the 20th century, states began requiring spousal consent to initiate a pregnacy, and the undeniable state interference with traditionally private procreation decisions thst these “marital rape” laws represented was never struck down.
So the right to procreate simply isn’t so important that the state can never intervene.
WTF? The state intervened by passing marital rape laws?
Holy shit.
I mean, by your logic the state previously intervened by passing any rape laws (by preventing me from raping your wife and getting her pregnant they've 'interfere(d) with procreation.').
No, spousal consent specifically was not historically or traditionally required. If one argues that abortion was a historically permitted practice, this is as much a part of that history and tradition of choice as abortion.
The state allowing someone to choose to abort and not allowing another person to rape that someone is not the same thing ('intervention).
I think the issue can be stated more neutrally. Up into the 20th century, men were regarded as having something in the nature of possessory rights in their wives. They could initiate sex with them without their consent. They could beat them if they refused. A wife was regarded as a sort of extension of her husband. And the state didn’t iinterfere (or supported the husband when it did) because it regarded these things as private family matters.
I understand you regard these sorts of posessory rights as a horrific injustice, and may not find it reasonable to compare it with something like abortion. But nonetheless, I think there are analytically legitimate analogoes between regarding a woman as an extension of her husband, and regarding a fetus as an extension of a woman, even though these cases obviously are not the same.
One similarity is that this is a case where there were previously revognized family privacy rights that got rescinded. Traditionally, the husband controlled the initiation of a pregnacy because when to have sex was the husband’s call.
Giving the wife a say in the matter took rights away from the husband. It represented a recision of existing privacy rights. The state intruded where it wouldn’t intrude before. However justified it may have been, that’s what it was.
From the point of view of history and tradition, there’s no analogy between a husband initiating sex with his own wife without her consent and raping a complete stranger. The wife was regarded as the husband’s property, and a proper object of his sexual needs, in a way that another woman simply wasn’t. Your objection would be like saying there can’t be a right to abort ones own fetus because if there was one, there would have to be a right to abort someone else’s.
The only point I see you making here is that the argument that something was or wasn't historically practiced should never be used to help with modern legal reasoning because many historical practices were awful and are currently illegal. Is that it?
That’s it, but it’s more specific than that. It’s specifically about privacy/autonomy. Many things that were regarded as part of family privacy, things that prople said the state shouldn’t intrude on because they were regarded as private individual decisions that were part of marriage, sex, and family life, were awful.
Well it seems to me that we didn't so much intrude on individual autonomy as we recognized a conflict of rights between individuals. An individual's right to not be raped trumps an individual's right to engage in attempted procreation. This is something we try to do in every recognized area of liberty. The government tends to not pass laws intruding on anyone's religious practices unless they violate the rights of others.
So when it comes to abortion, unless the law designates a point at which a fetus is recognized to have rights that might compete with the rights of the mother, there is no compelling state interest to restrict abortion.
In Casey the court established that states couldn't restrict abortion after viability. But did they establish why exactly the state has a compelling interest to be able to restrict abortions after that? Did they explicitly say that post viability it can be considered a conflict of individual rights, thereby bestowing actual rights on the unborn? If so, why wouldn't those rights carry over to all states from that point on? Or did they acknowledge the ABILITY of individual states to bestow rights upon the unborn, but not the rights of personhood which it seems would give them automatic constitutional rights. I assume that states have the power to bestow some rights to animals, and dictate which ones you can and can't kill. So maybe they can determine the outcome any competing rights between persons and non persons.
Sorry... couldn't restrict abortion BEFORE viability.
No, spousal consent specifically was not historically or traditionally required.
I don't think this is exactly right, unless by "specifically" you meant what I am about to say. Spousal consent was regarded as an essential term of the marriage contract (from both partners point of view.)
So non-spousal consent was more in the nature of allowing a visitor into your house as a guest for which consent was required for each entry. Whereas a marriage was more in the nature of granting a tenancy. Once granted, and unless and until the tenancy was terminated, there was a standing consent to enter onto the premises - no additional specific consent for each entry was required.
In some jurisdictions the presumption of standing spousal consent was removed where the spouses were no longer living together.
Even now, the notion of escalating consent, lip by lip, nipple by nipple, while pretty dumb even for college kids experimenting with a possible new partner, is totally nuts for people in an established sexual relationship. Some degree of standing consent is unavoidable even if it is rebuttable with a quick "and you can stop that, right now !"
"[...] prior to [viability] you only have potential human life versus an actual human life."
I have never understood why the ability of an infant to survive on its own is supposed to be a persuasive argument. Infants are not "viable" after they're born, and there are several circumstances which leave adult humans unable to survive without outside assistance. None of this means they ought to lose basic human rights.
Viable in this context does not mean able survive on its own. It means able to survive without the condition of being inside a uterus.
Viability doesn't mean self sufficiency. I mean, by that standard how many of us are truly viable? I'm not sure how well I'd do as a hermit hunter gatherer.
I'm not arguing that viability is some obviously correct object standard as the line to draw when it comes to abortion. I'm just saying that it isn't helpful to mischaracterize what viability means in this context.
Viable in this context does not mean able survive on its own. It means able to survive without the condition of being inside a uterus.
Humans created in vitro can survive almost indefinitely outside the uterus when properly frozen. I seriously doubt that the "viablity" standard regards these as "viable."
mtkesq : I know the dividing line at "viability" is not grounded in the text of the Constitution, but prior to that point you only have potential human life versus an actual human life.
Not even gaslightling.
W. Pauli
Best worded conclusion I've read as of noon on 12/2.
Medical art record surviving preme born at estimated 21 weeks, 1 day of gestation. Guinness Records.
21 weeks and 5 days has been true since 1987.
Guinness doesn't record them, but there are several claims of 20 week premies that seem to be credible.
I think the three Trump appointees pretty much showed their cards, and it’s very unlikely Roberts will be able to get one of them (ot Thomas or Alito) to support a re-affirmation of Roe.
He might perhaps get another Justice to support a reframing along the lines of “assuming without deciding that Roe remains valid, viability wasn’t essential to it, as Justice Blackmun said in his private papers. So a 15 week limit doesn’t violate Roe’s fundamental holding, and hence doesn’t violate Casey’s either.”
But I find myself skeptical that he’ll be able to do even that.
well duh, but how do you think Breyer/Soto/Kagan will go?
"FWIW, my personal prediction is that the Court will not overrule Roe and/or Casey, at least insofar as there will be five votes to re-affirm the existence of a due-process-protected right to decide whether to terminate one's pregnancy. Justice Roberts will succeed at getting persuading at least one of the post-Casey Justices to join in his opinion, which will confirm the existence of the right while simultaneously discarding the "viability" standard for determining when the State's countervailing interest in the life of the fetus arises and giving States more leeway in defining the timing of their prohibitions. Just a guess.
Generally I agree with this. They will affirm the MS law (15 weeks) while casting doubt on laws banning it prior to the first trimester. I heard 9 Justices all concerned with stare decisis, especially Barrett and Roberts
Will they set any kind of new timeline, before which it is unconstitutional to prohibit abortions? Or will they just eliminate the viability rule and judge each new law as it comes up?
Anybody's guess. My guess is they will say something like states cannot unduly burden abortions in the first trimester. MS law is outside that, so they can still affirm MS law.
Wouldn't they at least have to loosely define what undue burden means in this context? Because Dobbs clearly defies the standard set in Casey.
Even if it isn't a specific week count, wouldn't they have to say something about allowing a reasonable amount of time to know you're pregnant and make a decision?
Otherwise a state could reasonably argue that they are imposing no burden at all on any woman who wants to get an abortion within two day of their last period.
"first trimester" is 12-14 weeks.
I think a difficulty with liberty as a generality is that anything can be framed as a liberty interest. Why weren’t the Civil Rights Laws subjected to strict scrutiny and struck down? After all, it would have been just as easy for the targets of these laws to call what they do “business equality” as it was for the marriage equality people to call what they do “marriage equality.” After all, the only difference is that one is supposedly an important activity and the other supposedly isn’t.
Every year, thousands of people get divorced because their marriage and their job conflict and they find their job more important. Who exactly is the Supreme Court to tell these people that their the Constitution confers solely on the Supreme Court, and not them, the exclusive tight to dictate what is and isn’t important to their lives? That the people get no say in, have no right to have any say in, what is and isn’t important to them?
Who said anything about "strict scrutiny"?
Also:
At a high level of generalitly, the liberty to select ones prefered business partners is as much a kind of “liberty” as the liberty to select ones preferred marriage partners, and that liberty could also be given a more positive spin by using a term like “business equality.” Yet the Court subjects one to strict scrutiny and not the other. The difference simply isn’t directly derivable from the 14th Amendment itself. The Court says marriage is important to people’s lives, business isn’t. Yet as a matter of empirical fact, for many people that doesn’t reglect their actual priorities.
Indeed, and it's kind of crazy that employers can be compelled as to who they hire, but employees can't be compelled as to who they work for. Unless it's a single proprietorship, in which case it's the other way around.
Then you get into the fact that the 14th amendment on its own terms only reaches government discrimination, not private, so federal laws regarding private discrimination can't be appropriate legislation. That's why they're enacted under the
interstatecommerce clause, not the 14th amendment.employers can be compelled as to who they hire
I'm sure that's based on some actually-existing law, because you don't usually make stuff up completely, but I'd be fascinated to know which legal rule you're misstating here.
Put somewhat differently, "A lawyers greatest superpower is to turn a merits question into a procedural one" - in this case, about stare decisis. It seemed to me from oral argument Rikelman won on this.
IANAL but it would never have occurred to me that the interpretive method used in one decision is in any way binding precedent to future SC justices who might favor a different methodology.
As far as I understand it, stare decisis isn't a law or something that the court defines for future courts to precisely adhere to. It seems much more like part of a methodology, weighed differently by each justice according to their discretion.
To me it kind of seems like saying that if a court reaches a decision through originalist methodology, then originalism itself becomes binding precedent as the methodology for constitutional interpretation.
Or am I way off base here?
It's the textual protection in the Fourteenth Amendment that a state can't deprive a person of liberty without due process of law, and the Court has interpreted liberty to include the right to make family decisions and the right to physical autonomy …
But why does this help ? So a "right to abortion" is part of liberty - who doubted it ? But the rule in 14A is that you can't be deprived of your liberty "without due process of law."
Ergo, you can be deprived of your liberty with due process of law. And this happens all the time - see all those people languishing in prison, or on death row.
Unless of course the particular bit of liberty you are being deprived of is specially protected by the Constitution, eg 1A, 2A.
I think the idea is that there are some liberties so important that virtually no amount of process would satisfy 'due' in depriving one of it. Forcing a person to house a fetus in their body for nine months is arguably one of those.
Possibly, but how do you get there from "without due process of law" ?
It's not as if the Constitution lacks a method of specifying particularly important liberties it wants specially to protect - eg speech, arms, no troop quartering etc
Nor is the Constitution lacking protection for unspecified rights to be retained - see 9A.
The puzzle is how you can conjure something like the right to abortion from the words "without due process of law.' Especially when "without due process of law" has long had a perfectly straight forward and well understood meaning - ie arbitrary / not sanctioned by specific legal procedures, that has nothing to do with the particular liberty that is at stake.
And then we have the difficulty that liberty is in the same list as life. However unpleasant it might be to be required to incubate a descendant for nine months, it's not as unpleasant as being fried in the electric chair, or even being painlessly put to death with a drug that actually works. And yet 14A has no problem in allowing the government to do just that so long as it follows "due process of law."
So if the government can kill you with due process of law, why would we imagine that it can't deprive you of some important liberty with due process of law ?
'Due,' like 'reasonable' is likely going to have to be a balancing thing and all kinds of factors are going to come into play (the government can only kill murderers, for example). SCOTUS precedent includes bunches of cases where the government cannot restrict someone from something because of due process and yet allows the death penalty.
No, "due" means that which is owed. It indicates that the government owes you a proper, fair and lawful procedure before it can do the thing it wants to do to you.
Once you start deciding that the thing the government wants to do to you is so nasty that no procedure could ever be proper, fair and lawful, and so the government can't ever do that thing, you have - deliberately, obviously - allowed "due process" to morph into a judgement about the propriety of the government's nasty thing itself, not the process by which you might be condemned to suffer it.
This is not merely disingenuous, but absurd, since there isn't a nastier nasty than killing you. If death is insufficiently nasty to allow "due process" to swallow the nasty, nothing is.
The fact that SCOTUS may have invented this rabbit a long time ago does not prevent it being a rabbit. This rabbit needs to be stewed, pour encourager les autres.
What's 'owed' in a given context is going to be factor related, where the 'nastiness' is one.
Unclear that due process has both procedural and substantive components?
No, quite clear that "substantive due process" is just an internally contradictory word salad, coined to camouflage the judicial tactic of reaching behind the back and delving into the pants. Whereas "procedural due process" is merely repetition - procedure being the same thing as process.
"Due process" has nothing to say about the substance of what the government is aiming to do to you. You are due a fair process, whatever the substance of what the government plans to do to you.
So if the government can kill you with due process of law, why would we imagine that it can't deprive you of some important liberty with due process of law?
Disappearance from modern constitutionalism of the role of a national sovereign accounts for that perplexity. Put a continuously active sovereign back into that picture and confusion disappears.
Government cannot deprive you of important liberty with due process of law, because process of law is merely a government power. But your important liberty is not finally under the purview of government. Your important liberty is a right decreed by the sovereign. A decreed right bestows on an individual a power to invoke sovereign power—which is superior to government's power—to stay the hand of government.
With regard to capital punishment, the sovereign decreed otherwise. The punishment is part of the due process the sovereign decreed for the government's role in the constitutional scheme.
Generally speaking, the notion of sovereign oversight of government is what resolves commonplace apparent contradictions, in which government seems to rival against itself—acting simultaneously on competing sides of contested points. Getting out of that pickle requires putting the sovereign back in the picture, as an entity separate from, and superior to government. The founders had that in mind constantly. Modern constitutional interpreters have largely forgotten it—and thus created myriad avoidable contradictions and perplexities by the lapse.
IANAL, but Lee's interpretation of due process makes more intuitive sense. It implies something about process, whether that be the process necessary to pass a law or convict someone of it, rather than saying anything about what types of laws are totally off the table.
But if your interpretation is correct that certain types of unspecified liberties are so important that no process can allow them to be restricted, and the right to an abortion is one of those liberties, then wouldn't a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion necessitate striking the due process part out of the Constitution because now you'd have conflicting concepts? You can't go through a process that restricts a liberty so important that no process is due enough to restrict it.
Roman, see my 6:18 comment above.
Or, Roman, save yourself the trouble.
I read it but it doesn't really clear anything up for me in terms of what the government can or cannot do, or how they need to go about doing it if it is indeed something they can do.
As far as I understand it there is no right granted in the constitution that is exempt from any type of process at all. Some would require an amendment to revoke. So I don't think you're actually saying that due process means unalterable under any circumstances. But it must mean something specific to you that I'm still not sure how to apply practically.
If a liberty can't be denied without due process, then due process must be a physically possible thing that can be achieved somehow, otherwise why bother to include the stipulation at all?
And if you know what due process would entail in order to deny or restrict an implied right, can you tell me what it is? Or does it depend on the implied liberty in question, and it's the job of the Supreme Court to decide what due process entails with different liberties?
As far as I understand it there is no right granted in the constitution that is exempt from any type of process at all.
Not quite. There are specific liberties explicitly guaranteed by the Constitution - eg speech, arms; and there are also unspecified rights "retained" by the people in the 9th Amendment, thought we don't know exactly what those are.
But the 14th says liberty may not be deprived "without due process of law." This applies to any kind of liberty - whether protected by 1A,2A, 9A, or liberties that are not protected by the Constitution. eg the liberty to roller skate. The liberty to roller skate may be taken from you, but not "without due process of law." There has to be some formal, and reasonably fair, procedure to go through before you lose that liberty.
Whereas the 1A, 2A, 9A protected rights can't be taken from you even with due process of law. If the government tries to take away your liberty to roller skate, then so long as they follow a proper, fair, legal procedure, they win. But if they try to take away your liberty by banning you from saying "Biden/Trump/Obama/Bush/Clinton is an idiotic twit", even if they use proper procedure - they still lose. (Or ought to, if the courts were not in the habit of inventing carve outs.)
The "substantive due process" scam is an attempt to bootstrap roller skating in as an undislodgeable right a la speech, arms etc, by pretending "due process" means something wholly unrelated to process. Precisely what it is alleged to mean is unstated, but the rabbit that emerges is that there are some rights that deserve undislodgeable protection even though thery are neither explicitly protected, nor to be found within 9A.
it's a conjuring trick, but not a very impressive one, as we can all see the magician moving the ball from cup A to cup B.
I'm guessing you are already familiar with the substantive component of due process. I'm also guessing you don't like it, except as applied to a liberty interest explicitly named elsewhere in the Constitution.
No, I don't like it, because it comes from nowhere, and has nothing to do with due process of law.
But also no, not " except as applied to a liberty interest explicitly named elsewhere in the Constitution." I don't need it to protect liberty interests that are explicitly named elsewhere in the Constitution. Because if the government attempts to deprive me of such a specified liberty using due process of law - ie using a duly passed statute, and lawful enforcement mechanisms, I do not need the 14th Amendment to assert my rights in court. I just need the bit of the Constitition that specifies my right.
eg if the government passes a law that appears to enable them to close down my newspaper, I expect my lawyer to argue my case using the 1st Amendment.
Lee, you approach the truth, but do not arrive at it. What you need is not the power of the courts, which have little if any to offer. What you need is deference of government to superior sovereign power, which you invoke with the courts' assistance.
I like framing this an issue of "personal liberty". We already allow and protect many forms of personal liberty, including all manner of individual medical decisions, including alternate treatments, body modifications and right to refuse treatment.
Under the rubric of personal liberty, the Court could reaffirm Roe's holding of the states over-restriction of abortion but jettison "viability" and "undue burden" and substitute some sort of balancing test, (perhaps strict scrutiny perhaps something else) for any restrictions by requiring states to show some compelling interest for restriction of medical procedures in general.
This would place abortion in the same arena as other government interests and allow courts to evaluate any restriction under more familiar and less unique criteria.
Limitations on who could preform abortions and what type of facilities were required could be fair game. Requiring later abortions to be performed in a hospital setting due to increased risk might pass muster. Limited waiting periods may also be allowable. Any limitation could be evaluated based on scientific and medical grounds rather than mostly religious, ethical or moral grounds.
Some ethical and moral issues would still be raised, like aborting fetuses that had or were likely to have significant medical or developmental problems. These issues will likely grow in importance in coming years as our understanding of the underlying causes of such conditions increases.
This type of reformulation seems consistent with public opinion which seems to generally support the availably of abortions with "common sense limitations". It also seems consistent with the way the court has dealt with other major moral issues in the past such as, for example, the death penalty, school desegregation and sexual acts and relationships. Dealing with issues as they arise and developing a framework one relatively small piece at a time.
The overreach in Roe is probably what got us where we are today, this might reign it in.
By your standards of needing a compelling state interest in order to restrict abortion, how would Dobbs survive? What is the compelling state interest that is satisfied by the deadline being 15 weeks that is not satisfied by a deadline at viability?
If abortion is acknowledged as a right, then a state passing a law for the sole purpose of preventing people from exercising that right can not be argued as a compelling state interest.
I don't know if the state could craft one. Perhaps if abortions after 15 weeks are significantly more dangerous. It seems to me any arbitrary time must be based on solid reasoning or solid data.
A remand for further factual development may be necessary to uphold a fifteen week ban (unless Roe and Casey are simply abandoned). The District Court limited discovery to the issue of viability, and the Court of Appeals opined that that limitation was not an abuse of discretion. The state´s asserted interests in a fifteen week ban have not been subjected to adversarial testing.
Is Mississippi making any claim at all that the state interest in moving the deadline is anything other than to impose a burden on exercising the right? Don't they need to at least pretend to have a different reason for the court to uphold the law without overturning Roe? Are they claiming something like it's about the danger of the procedure? Since their real objective is to overturn Roe, I don't know that they are.
It seems like a contradiction to affirm a right and at the same time accept that trying to prevent people from exercising that right is a compelling state interest.
JUSTICE THOMAS: Back to my original question. I know your interest here is in abortion, I understand that, but, if I were to ask you what constitutional right protects the right to abortion, is it privacy? Is it autonomy? What would it be? … What I'm trying to focus on is to lower the level of generality or at least be a little bit more specific. In the old days, we used to say it was a right to privacy that the Court found in the due process, substantive due process clause, okay? So I'm trying to get you to tell me, what are we relying on now? Is it privacy? Is it autonomy? What is it?
I liked Ms. Rikelman's terse reply:
MS. RIKELMAN: It's liberty, Your Honor.
Basta cosi. That line should appear on t-shirts in the near future.
She continued:
It's the textual protection in the Fourteenth Amendment that a state can't deprive a person of liberty without due process of law, and the Court has interpreted liberty to include the right to make family decisions and the right to physical autonomy …
So, why is suicide illegal?
Why is it illegal for me to be paid to donate blood, or organs?
Why, for that matter, is it illegal for me to get many pain killers without a prescription?
And why is the mother allowed to destroy her baby's "right to physical autonomy"?
Thank you for outing yourself as a dishonest moron.
1. Libertarians often think suicide, paid donation and drug purchases are fundamental liberties that shouldn't be regulated.
2. None of your examples deal with the cited 'family decisions.'
I agree that the Chief Justice should seek -- and perhaps might find -- the middle ground which properly balances the right of a non-citizen to life, liberty, and property against the right of a citizen who unilaterally wishes to kill that non-citizen.
There is no question that a citizen enjoys bodily autonomy unless and until such right to bodily autonomy demonstrably affects adversely the rights of another citizen: such bodily autonomy is enjoyed equally by both the unvaccinated and the pregnant.
In pregnancy, demonstrability -- "quickening" -- occurs before viability; that is, a pregnant citizen enjoys bodily autonomy up to the moment she knows, or reasonably should know, that she has become the gestational sack housing a non-citizen. We do not kill non-citizens who reside with the property of others. Equally, we do not restrict the right of any citizen to be non-procreative, be such non-procreativity be by cellibacy, contraception, sterilization, sex change, or otherwise: every citizen has procreative choice.
Justice Kagan correctly noted that nothing has changed in discussion during the past fifty years; moreover, nothing has changed in the discussion in the 375 years since the abortion exception to manslaughter statutes was first discussed and resolved. The fact that both Kagan and two benches have erred by neglecting history, rule-of-law tradition, and common sense is no reason to perpetuate such error: folly need not beget folly.
To put it differently: the Court must, if it is to overrule Roe and Casey, explain why, under the principles of stare decisis, it is discarding its own prior holding applying the principles of stare decisis to this constitutional right.
Because the decision was political bullshit pushed by dishonest members of the Court. Any other questions?
Seriously, how can you be so stupid as to not understand that?
Either the Court is bound by previous precedent, in which case you need to dump Lawrence v Texas, Windsor, and Obergefell, or it isn't, in which case Roe and Casey, as obvious sh!t decisions with no Constitutional, legal, intellectual, or moral legitimacy, need to be dumped.
Pick one.
The fact that two sets of "Justices" made sh!t decisions isn't any more powerful than one set, or 50.
Sotomayor babbled abotu the "stench of politics". She needs to sniff herself, because that's where the stench is coming from
Trump: "If you want to have your voice heard, go to the Capitol and make them hear it..."
Press: Insurrection! Worse than Hitler! Trying to overturn democracy!
Senator: "Overturn Roe and you will get a revolution...."
Press: *crickets*
"[T]o secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...."
Losing an election does not constitute the destruction of rights. Stripping people of them does.
Rigging and stealing an election in a representative form of government is probably the most fundamental denial of any right you could ever have in that case. If you effectively deny the people the right to select their leaders then you don't have a representative form of government anymore and the rest is pretty meaningless.
But since that did not happen in 2020, your defense of the january 6 coup attempt is meaningless, and renders all your commentary irrelevant.
I'm going to bastardize Ms. Rikelman's quote here. I'd be curious to hear her opinion of it.
"For a state to take control of a person's body and require that they go through with a mandatory vaccination, with all the physical risks and life-altering consequences that brings, is a fundamental deprivation of their liberty. Preserving a person's right to make this decision protects their liberty while logically balancing the other interests at stake.'"
Mandatory vax = "Good! Screw your bodily autonomy. Don't you know we are in a pandemic! If you don't want to get vaxxed no job for you and stay away from any public accommodations!"
Abortion = "Good! We need to respect bodily autonomy which is a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution!"
Except vaccinations are a minimal intrusion, while mandatory gestation is a much more significant one.
He's just terrible with analogies.
Tell that to the substantial percentage of those suffering side effects that are now "vaccine long haulers"....
There is no such "substantial percentage", merely a relative handful.
Many fewer than the number of women harmed annually by pregnancy.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html
Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 459 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through November 29, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 10,128 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.
Not getting vaccinated harms other persons. An abortion does not, unless you conclude a fetus is a person, something Justice Kavanaugh was quick to point out he doesn't.
I understand that's the meme that has been sweeping through the mob these days, but that's simply not true in any normative sense of the words in that sentence.
Try it with other subjects: "Not foregoing the use of a motor vehicle harms other persons." "Not scrubbing the sidewalk outside your home with a toothbrush every half hour harms other persons." "Not stopping breathing harms other persons." Equally true, one and all.
The forcible administration of vaccines might violate the substantive due process right to bodily integrity, a la Rochin v. California. Perhaps that is why no one is advocating applying force.
There really is a Thirteenth Amendment issue here. Can a state require that a woman involuntarily serve as an incubator for an unwanted fetus? If so, does that not gut the prohibition on slavery and involuntary servitude found in that amendment?
And for you limited governmentalists here, consider that a government that has the power to forbid abortions also has the power to require them.
I would argue that forcing full gestation is almost akin to a "taking" and requires compensation. That said, with our welfare state, women probably get just compensation for the intrusion already.
I can follow the logic of your first point but not your second.
Because the state has the power to outlaw murder doesn't give them a right to make you murder someone. I'm not even arguing that abortion is actually murder, I'm just using an analogy that seems apt. You can make the same analogy with the state outlawing rape. There's no legal or logical principle to imply that this gives them the authority to also order people to rape.
My argument being that giving government the power to engage into such an intrusion into bodily autonomy and the right to reproductive choice cuts both ways.
"Can a state require that a woman involuntarily serve as an incubator for an unwanted fetus? "
No. That's why the state must allow her 15 weeks to decide otherwise.
but they require taxpayers to pay to support their unwanted fetuses.
So let me get your argument straight -- "If you don't or can't choose freedom by a certain date established by the legislature, you become a slave."
Sounds positively unAmerican when put that way.
"Slave"?
Pregnant women can be bought and sold, or forced to work without pay? They have no rights other than being property?
Funny, I hadn't heard that.
The most cogent analogy between abortion and slavery is that female slaves lacked control of their fertility.
The number of people that end up pregnant completely involuntarily is astronomically low.
I really feels like Thomas got the answer he wants. He may not like abortion but he needs affirmation that the liberty is what truly grants the choice and without liberty what do we have?
I also think they’ll gut Roe rather than overrule it. But the Kill It Krewe has their “neutrality” framing, too (I was unaware upholding constitutional rights puts the USSC in the awkward position of “picking sides”).
Question re: precedent^2: You say in order to overturn Roe they have to explain what was so wrong in Roe [i]and[/i] why they don’t have to adhere to Casey as well.
What happens if they overturn Roe but don’t justify their action on both those points?
I yhink we are in an unusual situation perhaps analogous to a civil war. Then as now, the Supreme Court had enunciated a new fundamental right, the right to own a slave. But the public simply did not accept that right, the issue divided the country, and the result was war.
The issue here, while less drastic, is similar. The public has simply not accepted the fundamental right enunciated by the Supreme Court. It has similarly divided the nation. For the last several decades justices have been appoijted based largely on their views on the issue. And while appointing justices in this manner is not nearly as destructive to the country as going to war and then passing an amendment with the losing side under military occupation and not voting, nonetheless it is fundamentally destabilizing to the country all the same.
It could be argued that this potential for division, destabilization, and conflict tepresents the special exception warranting reversal. At the tome of Casey, it may have seemed like the Reagan era of conservative judges was over and the country would from that point forward accept the court’s mandate. Three decades of continuing division following Casey have established that this assumption underlying Casey was a mere this hope which simply has not been realized.
Nor is it the first time the Court would have rescinded fundamental rights. For example, more than a century ago the Court elevated liberty of contract to a status resulting in heightened scrutiny. It reversed itself on that.
"(that a woman has a constitutional right to terminate a pregnancy pre-viability)"
So why not simply define 15 weeks as the point of viability? Or call it "peri-viability" to distinguish it from "pre-viability" as a legal concept. Two can play the semantic game.
OR
Observe that in 1973 birth control was not as widely available and effective, nor were home pregnancy tests (1976). Women now have the capacity to manage their choice of conception, detection and abortion prior to 15 weeks in complete privacy. Therefore in contrast with the year 1973, there is no undue burden on access to abortion by restricting it after 15 weeks.
No need to overturn Roe or Casey. Merely acknowledge the advance of medicine, apply the same standards as Roe/Casey and recognize that a new deadline is now appropriate.
Sure they could do that in order to punt the headache down the road. But what happens when a state passes a law that makes the cut off 14 weeks? Will the Supreme Court then say no? With what reasoning? That the state has no legitimate interest in moving the date back other than to unduly burden a women in exercising her constitutional right to an abortion? If that reasoning is sound then what the hell do they think the state's interest is in moving the deadline back from viability to 15 weeks? Everyone knows that the purpose is precisely to prevent as many women as possible from exercising that right, with the hopes of removing it altogether.
If abortion is a constitutionally protected right then any and all regulations have to serve some sate interest other than trying to prevent the right from being exercised. I don't think Mississippi is even pretending they have any other reason for changing the deadline. If they could make up some kind of reason that this law serves a state interest in the least restrictive manner, then it would make things easier on the court. But Mississippi wants to establish that there is no constitutional right to abortion, so they don't need a reason other than trying to discourage the practice.
I'm not saying they won't do what you suggest, I'm just saying that I don't get what the standard is for regulating a constitutional right if the court is to acknowledge that abortion is one.
eyeballing this chart, it looks like 95% of abortions are within the first 15 weeks. 91% in the first trimester (~13 weeks)
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/raw-data-abortions-by-week-of-pregnancy/
So that seems to argue statistically that a 15 week restriction is not an undue burden.
at what stage were you aborted?
Isn't any burden that is imposed for absolutely no state interest other than to make it more difficult to exercise a (currently) constitutional right undue?
I'm pretty sure the whole point of the law was to be in conflict with the premise that states can not impose burdens, due or undue, on abortions. If abortion is a constitutional right, then Dobbs can only be upheld if there's a legitimate state interest in defying the deadline set in Casey.
When states pass gun regulations they at least have to pretend to have a compelling state interest for doing so. Saying that we just don't like people buying guns wouldn't fly.
like requiring the onerous application for permits to possess or carry firearms?
I'm guessing that states still give reasons - like public safety and whatnot - and then wait and see if the courts let it fly. A state has to at least make a show of having a reason other than not liking guns. If they straight up said, we're actually doing this because we hate private gun ownership and don't believe the Constitution says that we need reasons to regulate them, then they'd have to see if the supreme court agrees with their interpretation of the constitution.
So how many more Black Peoples would there be if Richard Milhouse had been as Attentive to his Surpreme Court Appointments as the P-Grabber in Chief was?
Quick estimate, 50 years of Choice, average of 400,000 Black Embryos aborted/year, 1/2 of which are XX, assuming a fertility rate of 2/XX, into the 3rd childbearing generation....
I'm guessing "A Bunch"
Dobbs is a case about stare decisis rather than abortion (because all 5-4 decisions are "wrongly decided in retrospect" once the ideological composition of the court changes).
If the Dobbs court overturns Roe/Casey for being wrongly decided, then what limiting principle exists to stop a future court from holding that Dobbs was wrongly decided.
Or, do we just keep flicking that lightbulb on and off until the filament breaks?
Good lord David Post is a mendacious twat.
It is amazingly ironic (and an obviously ignorant for Post to fail to take note) that Democrats used the very same arguments (for liberty!!!!!) to own and enslave Justice Thomas' ancestors.
The chutzpa!!!!!!
"My liberty right to kill somebody else to avoid inconvenience." Fuck you.
Not sure I saw every comment, this is my first time here, but… did anyone actually rebut the analogy?
The analogy is flawed. If I signed a form saying that I would agree to get hooked up to another person in that situation if the time ever came, then I reneged–THAT’S what’s happening in abortion. Babies don’t just randomly appear, they’re place there by deliberate action. (Which means that, if you use this as your argument, it’d be consistent to allow an exception for rape.)
The analogy is also flawed because it takes a life that was once autonomous and makes it dependent on you. That’s not what happens in a pregnancy. Two people take an action to bring a life into being, and then are responsible for it. (If you use this as your argument, it’s consistent to not allow an exception for rape.)