The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Ahmaud Arbery Case Highlights Problem of Insider Favoritism in Law Enforcement
The perpetrators almost escaped prosecution because one of them was a former employer of the prosecutor's office.

There is widespread - and justified - happiness today that justice was done in the Ahmaud Arbery case. The three men who pursued and killed him because of a combination of bigotry and baseless suspicions have been convicted of felony murder and other crimes.
However, understandable celebration of the outcome should not obscure a troubling aspect of the case. The defendants almost avoided being charged because one of them is a former employee of the prosecutor's office. Reason's Billy Binion explains:
[T]he theatrics from the defense have diverted scrutiny away from the seediness of the original prosecutor, Jackie Johnson, who in September was indicted on criminal charges for violating her oath of office and obstructing police when she allegedly showed the McMichaels favorable treatment and ensured they would not be arrested after Arbery's death.
Such charges against prosecutors are almost unheard of…..
Several months went by before the government applied any rigorous investigation to the case. Johnson, then the Brunswick Judicial Circuit District Attorney, was a big part of that, according to the indictment against her.
The ex-prosecutor, who lost reelection in November 2020, allegedly leveraged her office to "show favor and affection to Greg McMichael," her former employee, during the state's initial probe of the case, and got in the way of law enforcement when she ordered them not to arrest Travis.
After recusing herself, Johnson then recruited Waycross Judicial Circuit District Attorney George E. Barnhill to replace her. But she declined to mention that Barnhill had already been involved: He told police the day after the killing that the three men should not face charges. He also had a conflict of interest, eventually disclosing that his son had worked in Johnson's office alongside McMichael, including on a prior prosecution that Arbery faced. Yet he stayed on the case until April and only resigned at the behest of Arbery's mother once she learned of his potential bias. (As of September, an investigation into Barnhill's conduct was ongoing.)
Indeed, had Arbery's case not received explosive media attention in May 2020, it's possible that both Johnson and Barnhill's prosecutorial malfeasance would have prevented charges from being brought against the men.
As Binion notes, absent the widespread media attention that this case attracted, conniving prosecutors might have succeeded in getting the perpetrators off the hook. What happened here was an extreme case of the broader problem of insider favoritism in the criminal justice system. All too often, law enforcement officials turn a blind eye to wrongdoing in their own ranks, or even (as here) that perpetrated by former employees of their organizations.
The "blue wall of silence" that inhibits many cops from testifying against abusive fellow officers is one example. In New York City and some other jurisdictions, police unions give out "courtesy cards" to friends and relatives of officers, so as to allow these people to escape tickets for traffic violations.
I myself was once a minor beneficiary of law enforcement favoritism. I recounted the story here:
Back in 2001, when I was clerking for the [US Court of Appeals for the] Fifth Circuit in Houston, I was pulled over by a police officer for a minor traffic violation (I thought I wasn't doing anything wrong, but the officer had a different view…). He asked me to show him my license, which I did….[S]ince I was only living in Texas temporarily, I was still using my Massachusetts license. This wasn't good enough for the officer. "Son," he said, "you have to show me a Texas ID."
I suspected that it was not legal for him to require a Texas ID. After all, what happens if he stops a driver from another state who was just passing through? Would he be required to have a Texas ID as well? Nonetheless, I was very reluctant to get into an argument with a cop;… [I]f I pissed him off, he could saddle me with a more expensive ticket, or worse. Instead, I showed him the closest thing I had to a Texas ID: my ID from the Fifth Circuit.
"You work for the Court of Appeals?" the officer asked skeptically. Such a suspicious-looking character couldn't possibly be an employee of the criminal justice system! "Tell me the address of the federal court house," he demanded. After I told the officer the correct address, it dawned on him that I really was a court employee, and not a devious impostor trying to get away with traffic violations. Right away, the tone of the conversation changed, and I was let off with a mild warning (whereas before it seemed fairly clear that he was going to write me a ticket).
The episode shows the favoritism that police sometimes extend to fellow law enforcement employees. Although it had not occurred to me that I could use my exalted status as a law clerk to get out of a ticket, I later learned from other court employees that this kind of police behavior is far from unusual.
Obviously, my case was trivial compared to what almost happened in the Arbery situation. Indeed, the latter was so grave that authorities have taken the highly unusual step of indicting a prosecutor, as a result. But both stories illustrate a broader problem of favoritism in law enforcement.
In fairness, police and prosecutors are far from the only professions who show favoritism to insiders. I'm an academic, and I certainly see such issues in my own industry, as well. But law-enforcement favoritism is particularly troubling, because it often involves literal matters of life and death, or at least cases where people's liberty and property are at stake.
There isn't any simple solution to this problem. The people in the best position to sanction perpetrators of favoritism are usually themselves fellow cops and prosecutors, many of whom are also inclined to favor their own. In this way, law-enforcement favoritism is an obstacle to its own alleviation. But we should at least recognize the ubiquitous nature of the problem, and give greater consideration to possible strategies for reducing it.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Thank you for publishing this.
I agree but it is really sad that in 2021, we need to rejoice that three white guys who hunted down a black man in their neighborhood and shot him - and were caught on tape doing it - were found guilty of murder in Georgia. Yet we all know that it is something worth being happy about and if there were no video, this would have never, ever happened (and if the races were reversed, even with no video, the black guys would all have been on death row by now without much fanfare).
citation needed for supposed pandemic of black guys being sent to death row for killing white people with no evidence.
Cool story bro. This is a comments section on a random blog, not a legal brief. I think your request though would probably go as well as you pretending downthread that Arbery's death had nothing to do with race even though they called the guy a n****r right after they killed him. Your schtick is lame.
In other words you can't present an evidence for me to believe you got it.
Also you forgot to put allegedly, Travis denied saying and the prosecution as far as I know didn't bring it up. It might be relevant but in a world where news sources are identifying a georgia license plate as flat out confederate flag with no context and thus evidence of racism you understand my reluctance to take all these allegations at face value.
Your comments have persuaded me that you are a bigot, AmosArch.
I sense I am not alone in that regard.
I consider your old-timey, right-wing observations concerning racial justice worthless. So does the American mainstream.
Your betters will take it from here. You get to whine about it as much as you like.
"I sense I am not alone in that regard."
You are not.
If you have no better sense than to associate yourself with Asshole's lak of judgement, that's on you.
Nothing AmosArch has said here indicates bigotry.
Why lie? We can see his words for ourselves. Surely you, being a nasty little racist yourself, ought to be defending the merits of racism instead of lying about it not being where everyone can see it?
Nothing he said implied anything but refusal to blindly accept accusations of racism without evidence. Pretty sure that makes your friends the bigots.
Squid,
"Nothing he said implied anything but refusal to blindly accept accusations of racism without evidence" is hardly true. If you read this thread you will find various things said by Amos that go beyond that, including that, when presented with evidence that the perpetrators used a racial epithet right after the shooting, Amos just shrugged it off as irrelevant to their mindset. Then he feels very confident they would have acted the same with a white person in the neighborhood after those burglaries, but, of course, white people had visited the house too and none were chased, cornered, or killed. He also has complaints that mentioning the perpetrators had a license plate with the confederate flag (as part of the old Georgia flag, I believe) was somehow dishonest, though they did and, as a someone who grew up in the South, there is a strong correlation between people who like to display the confederate flag and use of racial epithets for black people and overt racism.
He also thinks that no charges would have been brought if the races were reversed, i.e., if three black men had chased, cornered, and shot to death a white man jogging in their neighborhood. Seriously. He explicitly said that. Perhaps you agree. But then, perhaps, you are entirely unfamiliar with the history of the United States criminal justice system.
If you are that unfamiliar with the history, see Eugene's post on the Washington, D.C., case from 1923 dealing with self-defense for an example of how the criminal justice system has historically treated black men claiming self-defense from white people who were actually shooting at him. Or just google lynchings in Georgia.
Why lie, NOVA Lawyer? Arbery wasn't "cornered". Gregory McMichael was perfectly correct in seeing that the video shows Arbery attacking them from quite a distance and them merely waiting until they realized that he was attacking them, at which point Travis attempts -- unsuccessfully -- to dissuade Arbery by leveling his shotgun but nevertheless fails to shoot before Arbery got further into his attack than Rosenbaum did against Rittenhouse, actually grabbing the barrel of the gun and pummeling Travis with his free fist..
It is of course "racist" of me or AmosArch to notice such things.
At a pretrial hearing, an investigator testified that Bryan told him that Travis McMichael called Arbery a "fucking nigger." That testimony did not come in at trial.
After the Arbery verdict, I looked at the comments on the National Review's Corner site. I was pleased to see they overwhelmingly supported the jury's finding. Only a few people scratched for any excuse possible to justify the murder (often insisting Arbery was a criminal terror in the community - that on the basis of no evidence whatsoever).
But here's one thing that did appear very frequently: Commenters raged against the suggestion the murder had anything to do with race. There were effusive seething rants against leftists and liberals who spoke of the the incident in racial term. They passionately damned the media for discussing race as a factor.
But here's were it gets bizarre (and interesting) : In a surprisingly number of cases - perhaps even a majority - the very same people complaining also admitted race probably was a factor in this buffonish murder. They conceded a white person probably would have been treated differently. But in their Right-wing minds, race can only be considered a factor when it's one-hundred-percent positively absolutely proved with documented evidence. And I got the impression their standard of proof thereof is exceptionally high. After all, there was evidence in the record here (as noted above).
Today's Right has no shortage of loudly-voiced grievances, many of which are sketchy at best. But when it comes to race, they seem to demand the issue be kept in a locked box and only taken out by people wearing white gloves. Now, I know race is a critical issue in this country and discussion about it essential. Sometimes I agree on any given topic; sometimes I don't. But Right-types who face that same debate often exist in a continual state of spittle-spraying rage.
It's an interesting psychological phenomena. Almost as if they have a guilty conscience or something.....
" It might be relevant but in a world where news sources are identifying a georgia license plate as flat out confederate flag with no context and thus evidence of racism you understand my reluctance to take all these allegations at face value. "
McMichael displayed that Confederate flag on his truck voluntarily, knowing its message. He tried to prevent the jury from observing it, however, because he suddenly concluded it was no longer a good idea to be known as a bigot.
The context is that Georgia adopted that symbol of bigotry in the mid-50s, an ugly response to desegregation efforts. It was replaced 20 years ago as Georgia improved, but McMichael was not so quick to disclaim racism. At least, not until he was being held to account for his violent bigotry -- and facing people without trucks, guns, and backup.
I believe I recall Travis saying it immediately after Arbery falls down. But I don't attach any importance to it. Arbery was shot in self defense, and even racists have a right to self-defense.
What was caught on tape was Ahmaud Arbery attacking Travis McMichael in exactly the way Rosenbaum attacked Rittenhouse. But Rittenhouse was in the end able to get better lawyers, got a judge who wasn't execrable, etc. Like the Derek Chauvin trial this is a justice system atrocity, but not a surprise.
It seems to me that Arbery was the one exercising a right to self-defense when he was confronted by a shotgun wielding assailant. The defendants were plainly the aggressors.
Bullshit. When Arbery was running at Travis Travis' shotgun was pointed in the air until Arbery's intent to attack him became clear and Greg's pistol was in his holster and his PHONE was in his hand as he called the police. Just stop lying.
WTF are you talking about?
Arbery ran to the passenger side of the truck because McMichaels was on the driver side with the door open to block that route.
He means that Arbery is black.
The unutterable stupidity of your claim surpasses belief. On Bryan's video we see Arbery run almost 100 yards, 80 or so of them directly at Travis. Only when Travis. alarmed, levels the shotgun does Arbery veer around the passenger side of the truck AND ATTACK TRAVIS FROM A DIFFERENT DIRECTION despite a clear path to keep running away.
From the initial reports and videos, it seemed pretty obvious that those guys were getting what my basketball coach referred to as a brother-in-law deal.
Good on somebody for finally cutting through the bullshit and making it right.
The person most responsible for that was probably Gregrory McMichael himself for releasing the video, which led much less connected people in law enforcement to get a grand jury convened relatively quickly.
That was oh so stupid. What could he possibly gain from that? Street cred with his bowling team?
Talk about misreading the room…..
He legitimately thought, apparently on the advice of counsel(!), that leaking it would clear up rumors and misconceptions going around the neighborhood and demonstrate an honest citizens arrest gone wrong. And he was almost right! Because to certain necessary people in law enforcement, whom he also turned the video over to(!) that’s what they thought it showed too.
I also think McMichael’s testimony really hurt him because it informed the jury he knew how to arrest a person and deescalate a situation…and yet he escalated a situation and then killed a man.
That too. Always risky to testify. Rittenhouse might have been the rare case where it was beneficial. But he had very good lawyers up against a not great prosecution and much more favorable evidence.
Let me register my strong disagreement that it is usually a bad idea to testify in your own defense. The usual reason to avoid it is if the defendant has a bunch of felony convictions that can them come in to "impeach" his character for truthfulness (LOL - we all know why they really come in). So, if there are not prior convictions, it is a real bad idea to not testify in your own defense (unless you are just really not credible and are lying and a really bad liar).
Juries almost always tend to think that if you don't testify and defend yourself, you probably are guilty -- and I don't care how strong the instruction on that point is. They all think it. Hell, I do in a lot of cases as well and I am a pretty well-educated lawyer who clerked on the 9th Circuit and district court and fully understand the fifth amendment. I know that if I were accused of a serious crime, I'd want to be heard by the 12 people who have my life in their hands and it's crazy for people not to.
I mean to just push the point home: You may have a constitutional right not to testify but that does not make it a good idea. Ilya had a constutional right to tell that officer who asked for his "Texas id" to tell him to fuck off, but that would have been a very bad idea.
Rotten house's attorney said they ran a mock jury, maybe more than one, and they got much better results with Kyle testifying.
Not many criminal defendants have that kind of resources but I'm glad Rittenhouse did.
"Rotten house"?
Spell checker.
Rittenhouse’s attorney said something along the lines Wisconsin juries expect the defendant to testify and it’s probably for the reasons you give. Plus because of all the donations the attorney had mock trials and the one in which Rittenhouse testified went better for Rittenhouse.
McMichael’s only chance was early on plead to manslaughter and serve a few years in prison before this ever became a huge deal.
The defenden's only chance was to hire a better lawyer who wouldn't get suckered into making a bad argument that the McMichaels had probable cause to believe Arbery has just committed a felony, which was a loser.
Was a plea deal ever offered? I haven't heard of that.
The problem is that the vast majority of criminal defendants are in fact guilty, which means that when they testify they either have to admit that (which obviously isn't very helpful) or try to lie about it, which they also tend to have trouble doing convincingly. This is perhaps why, as Justice Scalia noted, defendants often exercised their right to remain silent even when jurors were expressly permitted to draw an adverse inference from that fact.
Fair point. But for an innocent person (or person with an excuse/justification), it's hard to see how it would ever help not to testify. And that's probably why juries generally draw the inference I do even when we try not to.
It's stupid court games to pretend that jurors will or ought to ignore the probable implications of attempts tp prevent them from discovering the facts.
I am only a medium-well-educated lawyer and haven’t worked at fancy places like the Ninth Circuit, but I have almost never seen a defendant testifying go well in state felony court. Even without a prior criminal conviction. I’ve seen self defense claimed in murder cases go horribly. People who claimed a mistake got torn apart on cross. A defendant’s demented testimony in a double homicide probably made a jury more likely to impose a death sentence than they were before. When you’re subject to the cross examination of a skilled prosecutor, you’re not telling your story as much as you are a piece of their story. It can go sideways so many ways.
When you’re subject to the cross examination of a skilled prosecutor, you’re not telling your story as much as you are a piece of their story. It can go sideways so many ways.
Tell me more, LTG. I bet you have some good stories.
Happy Thanksgiving. And Chag Semeach Hannukah (a little early). 🙂
To you too.
Cross is all leading questions expecting all yes or no answers. The lawyers (and the judge) will try to keep it that way. So the prosecutor is telling a story while you’re forced to agree or disagree. And even though generally the lawyers want yeses or nos, witnesses get flustered and sometimes say something more damning in their attempt at explanation. It should be noted that the defendant doesn’t always say helpful things on direct examination while their lawyer is trying to make them look good.
So in this capital case, without giving too much detail, the defendant testified and claimed self defense in a case where the victims were shot in the back. It wasn’t great when his lawyer was letting him tell his story. On cross the prosecutor basically exposed him as a jealous, a liar, a coward, and basically all around evil. I don’t think the conviction was ever in doubt, but I think the jury recommending a death sentence afterward was definitely negatively influenced by his testimony. Probably better if he shut up.
Of course you have to consider the quality of the defendent. But let's get to specifics: What could the prosecution have gotten from Rittenhouse? (And what on earth did they think they were going to get from Grosskreutz?)
That's an oxymoron. Prosecutors are typically lousy cross-examiners, because they have no experience at it, because defendants generally don't testify. it's defense counsel that is skilled at cross-examination, because the vast majority of a criminal defense is trying to create reasonable doubt via poking holes in the prosecution.
Sure its risky to testify because an overwhelming number of criminal defendants are guilty, like McMichael.
I think this does illustrate what provocation is in self defense, as opposed to the prosecutions theory of provocation for Rittenhouse.
Chasing Arbery down removed.their claim of self defense, unless they tried to withdraw.
They kept Arbery in sight, repeatedly demanding he stop, which was perfectly legal, particularly since the GA citizen's arrest law gave them the right to arrest him.
Nothing they had done gave Arbery the right to attack Travis.
What was the crime they personally witnessed?
The law was too old (probably Colonial) to tell whether the Facebook CrimeWatch videos posted by Larry English resulted in "immediate knowledge" of the misdemeanor criminal trespasses by Arbery, but Travis had encountered Arbery criminal trespassing on the English property on Feb 11. The shooting was Feb 23.
Hardly ¨immediate knowledge¨. As the judge instructed the jury:
Gandydancer is 1,000% lying. No, it is not "perfectly legal" to brandish a gun at a random stranger and demand that he stop because he's black. There was no crime of any sort. Arbery did not commit misdemeanor trespass.
It is not a crime to wander through an open construction site.
@notnotlying: I'm aware of the jury instruction (which was contested), and also aware that the citizen's arrest law in GA says no such thing. It consisted at the time of two sentences, the first saying that a citizen can arrest if he has "immediate knowledge" of any crime, felony OR MISDEMEANOR. The second sentence, which ought to have been irrelevant, says that a citizen can lawfully arrest someoner on "probable suspicion" only if the crime suspected is a felony.
"Immediate knowledge" means of course "through the senses", without reference to some unspecified lapse of time. But, yes, GA courts have been at least intermittantly getting this wrong since at least the early 20th century. HOWEVER the GA Constitution guarantees TO THE JURY the final decision on the facts AND THE LAW. The first position of the McMichaels' ineffe4ctive counsel ought to have been that the C.A. law was irrelevant since, in the event, no arrest was attempted. But his fallback position ought to have been that a C.A. was anyway permitted by the plain text of the law.
NotSentient:
It is criminal misdemeanor trespass to enter or remain on any property when you have notice from the owner that you are not to trespass there, which "No Trespassing" sign(s) on the English property had already given Arbery notice many times, including on Feb 23, 2020.
This has been pointed out to you several times already. If you want to see a determined liar, look in the mirror.
The judge instructed the language of the statue as well. Gandydancer, are you claiming to know more about Georgia law than an experienced Georgia trial judge? That shows remarkable hubris.
Once again, when and where did you get your legal training, if any?
Nothing except brandishing a shotgun in the face of an unarmed man?
He wasn't unarmed once he grabbed the shotgun and began punching Travis. And the shotgun was pointed in the air, not being "brandished", until Arbery had almost closed on his victim.
It showed Arbery shot in self-defense. But atthat point we hadn't seen in the Rittenhouse trial just how irrelevant edidence is to a show trial.
"The person most responsible for that was probably Gregrory McMichael himself for releasing the video..."
Hey, say what you will about Gregory McMichael, but at least he got Gregory McMichael put away.
And Travis McMichael. And Roddie Bryan. And got DA Jackie Johnson indicted…
If only he had a TV set, he would have known that anything he said "can and will be used against you."
He must be the only person in the US unaware of that.
Nonsense. The video and other information clearly indicated justified self-defense, but an outrage mob was genned up and rthe result was a Zimmerman trial, only with an unjust outcome.
Still making shit up?
Still lying, eh?
Being called a liar by the likes of Gandydancer is like being called ugly by a frog.
That's very unfair on frogs.
There's plenty of things possible to hold cops, prosecutors, and judges accountable. But they've been blocking it since the first day they annointed themselves as unaccountable.
* Get rid of qualified and absolute immunity.
* Make losers pay, always, and everything including court costs, to keep frivolous charges at a minimum.
* Include government in the loser department, so they feel the sting of political charges.
* Require all charges to go to trial; plea deals are fine with me, but prosecutors don't get to drop the overcharges, they have to go to trial.
* All acquitted charges count as loser pays and reduce the proven charges, to discourage overcharging.
Obviously IANAL, because no lawyer would countenance such interference in their accumulated wisdom.
There is a decent amount of debate and uncertainty as to whether pure loser pays regimes discourage the bringing of meritorious claims because it becomes much riskier than simply bearing your own fees/costs.
In making that argument (that loser pays regimes discourage good claims) one is implicitly displaying a lack of faith that meritorious cases will win and frivolous cases will lose.
Meritorious doesn’t mean pure winner. Some things need to be tested in litigation. That’s supposedly a purpose of the adversarial system.
" Meritorious doesn’t mean pure winner. "
I have often told clients that the weaker position seems to generate a roughly 20-25 percent chance of victory, particularly in state courts. most especially when home cooking might be served or the issues complex. Some lousy judgments falter on appeal, but that is a long, costly route (and appellate courts can be weak, particularly at the state level, providing yet another opportunity for the lesser position to prevail).
My experience focuses mostly on civil claims. I figure criminal cases are worse, in several ways, for many reasons.
"...one is implicitly displaying a lack of faith that meritorious cases will win and frivolous cases will lose."
An eminently sensible lack of faith.
How about loser pays if the lawyer takes it on 30% contingency, but pays 100%?
That doesn't pass the smell test. The incentives reward good cases and punish bad cases.
Nothing is perfect. Some rich people will still push bad cases and not even notice the cost of losing. Some poor people will still get lousy representation no matter how good their cases and possibly go bankrupt. But if you think there will be more of those than the cases that aren't even pursued today, you'll have to provide some logic to back it up.
These changes seem calculated to result in fewer people being charged. Prof. Somin is complaining about prosecutors not charing enough people.
Surely we can all agree that the goal should be quality, not quantity?
Glenn Reynolds also suggested requiring disclosure of all plea deals offered by the prosecution to the jury.
If you offered negligent homicide, and you are charging Murder 1, then a jury might wonder why.
Or have a maximum trial penalty of something like 5%.
Sentencing possibilities. That’s what a jury should know.
Loser-pays sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, it'd greatly increase the incentive for police and prosecutors to hide exculpatory evidence and, let's say, improve the evidence supporting conviction.
I suspect that at present, a lot of unjust convictions go down because prosecutors are more interested in winning than in seeing justice done. Do we really want to increase their incentives in that direction?
"The three men who pursued and killed him because of a combination of bigotry and baseless suspicions..."
"... eventually disclosing that his son had worked in Johnson's office alongside McMichael, including on a prior prosecution that Arbery faced."
Whatever else you can say about this case, it's pretty obvious that McMichael's suspicions weren't baseless.
Yeah, good thing they left the stolen loot he was running with on the body so that when the real cops got there they could collect it as evidence and these guys should use it in their defense.
I wonder why they didn’t do that?
Ahmaud Arbery was a repeat misdemeanor criminal trespasser on a location from which several thousand dollars in fishing gear had been stolen before Larry English installed security cameras. Multiple firearms had been stolen from vehicles in the neighborhood, including a pistol from Travis. Their suspicion of Arbery may have been mistaken, but it wasan't baseless.
That they didn't plant evidence on him is the obvious consequence of the fact that they weren't framing him.
Oh, heaven save us, not the horrific repeat misdemeanor criminal trespasser. Hide the wife and children! You know, at the end even the McMichaels couldn’t sustain a self defense argument.
Arbery had been observed in the house several times never taking anything. There was absolutely no reasonable suspicion they had about the guy.
Do you ever suspend political crap in the way you think about anything?
"Ahmaud Arbery was a repeat misdemeanor criminal trespasser on a location from which several thousand dollars in fishing gear had been stolen before Larry English installed security cameras. Multiple firearms had been stolen from vehicles in the neighborhood, including a pistol from Travis. Their suspicion of Arbery may have been mistaken, but it wasan't baseless."
Travis didn't need "reasonable suspicion" of anything to arrest Arbery, had it come to that, which it didn't. He had immediate knowledge of an Arbery-committed crime. You may not think that crime serious, but that doesn't change anything. And Arbery was shot not for the crimes he had previously committed, but in self defense.
You might want to check the elements of criminal trespass and citizens arrest under Georgia law to see if what you are saying holds legal water or is just bloviating.
You might want to check the jury instructions about the citizens arrest law in GA and it's ambiguity. Not to mention the accepted legal position that any ambiguity in the law is to be met with the rule of lenity; to wit "The rule of lenity, also called the rule of strict construction, is a principle of criminal statutory interpretation that requires a court to apply any unclear or ambiguous law in the manner that is most favorable to the defendant."
Shorter Gandydancer: if a crime was ever committed somewhere, look for a black guy nearby. Even if you have to wait weeks or months after the crime was committed to find him nearby.
Arbery was of course not a "repeat" misdemeanor criminal trespasser because there's no evidence he committed criminal trespass even once. The security cameras in fact helped establish that.
You just keep lying in the teeth of what the laws actually say.
I mean, he had
black skindirty toenails, so that’s pretty conclusive evidence of wrongdoing, right?The suspicion wasn't baseless, but on the day in question it was wrong. If Arbery had stolen from the site previously that was something for the police, not a roadside citizen's arrest.
The instant escalation to lethal force by the McMichaels brandishing their weapons is the problem here. They could have discovered he hadn't stolen anything that day without the firearms and 4 lives wouldn't have been destroyed.
The suspicion was baseless, and let's be grownups and stop denying the obvious, something they clearly ginned up after the event as an excuse.
The problem here was that three racist psychos saw a black man in their neighborhood and lynched him. Their absurd story doesn't even manage to support their own arguments, aside from being ludicrously lacking in credibility. They didn't really think Arbery was guilty of any crime, they were just racist psychos who wanted to lynch a n-word and did.
They didn't "brandish" their weapons except by Travis at the point of Arbery's attack on him. The "escalation" to force was directly caused by Arbery's attack. They were wise to CARRY arms since Arbery was suspected of having stolen Travis' pistol. Three innocent lives have destroyed BY OUR CORRUPT JUSTICE SYSTEM, not by anything those three did that day. You're making a "thwo died because Kyle brought a rifle argument", and it's trash.
Holy crap
In addition to everything else, note the passive voice of Arbery "was suspected" of having stolen Travis's pistol. Who was doing this "suspecting"? The racist McMichaels, who assumed that a black guy must be a thief? There was no basis for any such suspicion. (Note that said crime had taken place six weeks earlier.)
Note that the actual December 9-1-1 call — not the one that GandyDancer heard under his white hood — involves English blaming some white guys of stealing stuff from him.
" Whatever else you can say about this case, it's pretty obvious that McMichael's suspicions weren't baseless. "
Reasoning at that level must make life difficult.
Miscomprehending the obvious is your specialty, Asshole. Are you in danger of drowning if you look upwards in the rain?
Excellent point, but one thinks the situation is even worse than the post presented.
Had the video not surfaced the lack of prosecution would have stayed in place. And in North Carolina where I live the conservatives who control the legislature passed a law that largely prevents police video from being released. In Asheville several years ago a flagrant violation of procedure and a physical attack by a police officer was only prosecuted because another police officer inappropriately but correctly released the video.
A police/justice system only works when the public has faith in the system. And sad to say, the way the police and justice system is portrayed on TV is not reality, as much as we wish it would be. As long as misconduct is condoned and hidden, a real justice system will not work in this nation, and fortunately this verdict is one step toward eliminating misconduct by those who would enforce the law.
In a self-own for the ages Gregrory leaked it himself. So convinced of his innocence, he thought it would calm neighborhood rumors, and everyone else would share their assumptions about the victim as justifications for their actions.
And dammit why can’t I spell GREGORY right today…
People sometimes might not be convicted of murder if there isn't any evidence you say? What is this world coming to?
Well let's see. The police arrive at the scene where a black man is dying of a gunshot wound inflicted by a white man. The black man is unarmed and the men who came after him before he was shot explain that they were chasing him with a truck and guns.
No need to investigate there, obviously no crime was committed, and of course the correct response by law enforcement is to let the men go, after all shooting an unarmed man is no evidence, no indication and certainly no reason to suspect a crime might have been committed.
Of course, reverse the racists of the individuals involved and anyone wonder what would have happened?
$1000 bail, so I hear.
For homicide? Have your hearing checked.
Of course not. Just attempted homicide. Of your baby-mama.
Yes, profound thanks to the Rev for kindly flagging the "didn't quite kill her" discount.
That bail decision was a bad one. The person(s) who made it should be identified and held to account.
Much like your decision to be a vanquished, obsolete, no-count, right-wing bigot.
The consequence for you -- and all of the other clingers -- will be to spend the rest of your days complying with the preferences of the better citizens of modern America.
I'm not aware of it being standard policy to automatically convict someone of murder for chasing down a supposed burglary suspect with no other evidence in a deadly confrontation. There might be a trial but it would be far from a foregone conclusion.
In answer to your other question If the races were reversed or all the same then nobody would wonder because nobody would care.
You know what is standard policy, or ought to be? To conduct an investigation.
There was an investigation and it was decided, rightly, that it was on the evidence clear self-defense, which it was.
The defendants were charged shortly after the Georgia Bureau of Investigation took charge of the case. That agency was not affected by the home cooking the conflicted prosecutors were serving up.
You are missing a very important part of the equation
The police arrive at the scene where a black man is dying of a gunshot wound inflicted by a white man who is the son of a former investigator for the Brunswick Judicial Circuit District Attorney's Office(who is present at the scene).
Swap the races, but leave the shooter's father as a former investigator for the local DA's office, and no, it's far from certain it would come out any different.
"Unarmed black man"? Good thing the McMichaels had the video evidence showing that Arbery had grabbed the shotgun with one hand while pummeling Travis with his fist.
There is no point in that video where Arbery is armed.
Apparently it wasn’t so good that the McMichaels had that video, because they buried themselves with it.
False. As soon as Arbery grabbed the shotgun he was, legally, armed. Abd, yes, you see him armed as soon as the struggle emerged from behinf the McMichael truck.
What do you think you can achieve by lying to people who know you're lying?
I have said nothing that is a lie and you don't even claim that anything in particular that I've said is a lie. Do you think anyone outside your claque of jackasses fails to notice this?
You've done it again instead of answering the question. Why?
Soros DA releases anyone arrested and drops all charges before anyone sees a moment in jail would be my guess.
I didn't follow this trial extensively. Seems to me that a reasonable jury could have gone either way, so I'm going to assume they went one of those reasonable directions.
However, the evidence doesn't look so cut and dry. I could also see a reasonable prosecutor thinking there was no case here based upon the evidence. (Although I'm not disputing that people in the law enforcement community routinely take advantage of "professional consideration" when it comes to application of criminal law).
Here what is concerning is the politicization on the case. Just yesterday a truck with a coffin on full display complete with the names of the defendant was parked outside the courthouse. Yeah protected speech (most likely) but let's not pretend here that throughout the trial there was not the oh so subtle suggestion that if the "correct" verdict didn't come back there was going to be something just short of a good old fashion lynching.
But, hey, just as someone in the MSM said on national news, those guys look like dumb rednecks so probably got what they deserved.
From what I've read the TDLR is there were burglaries around the area and Ahmaud had been seen several times around the area. So one day a few rednecks decide to follow him when they see him around again. One of them drives up and catches on video an inprogress struggle between Ahmaud and one other guy.
At most in a rational world you might charge the triggerman. But convicting the dude driving up and another running up to the scene after the shooting with murder is obviously for woke politics. If both parties were white or black. The guy would be equally dead and There probably would not have been any prosecution and Ilya n' Co would give less than two wet farts and this post would be devoted to his usual open borders obsession instead of drumming up some nonexistent racial angle like a dewy Twitter bluecheck social justice teenage influencer
From what I've read the TDLR is there were burglaries around the area
Except there weren't a lot of burglaries around the area.
And so what if "he had been seen." Maybe he liked to jog in the neighborhood.
Yeah, I don't know about you, but I generally don't wander through a house under construction just before starting my "jog in the neighborhood."
Sometimes you do, because it's fun to check stuff like that out.
Not really probable cause there.
A little trespassing (on a residential construction site where they just so happened to have put up a security camera) = "fun." Right. Keep the chuckles coming.
There was in fact no “trespassing.” He wandered through an open construction site, something I’m sure many of us have done.
Speak for yourself, Too-Clever. Gonna grace us with your special redefinition of "trespassing" you're using?
Although there is criminal trespassing, it should be noted that trespassing is also a tort. And in that tort, unless you can prove actual harm from the trespass, you get nominal damages. If this owner had sued Arbery for trespassing and proved it, the jury would have awarded $1. So it’s pretty clear society places an extremely low value on simple trespass, certainly not the value of one human life.
I don't know many reasonable people who would argue these guys were the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. And hoping into trucks with firearms to round up someone who is at most a nuisance to your neighborhood probably isn't a smart thing to do. But, this isn't as simple as a guy took a jog through the wrong neighborhood, someone got mad, and he turned up dead. To sum it up to that is just being intellectually dishonest. You left out that he probably shouldn't have lunged for the guy's gun and tried to wrestle it away from him. Also, even if you are in the right being a hostile jerk is usually never the right answer either.
“You left out that he probably shouldn't have lunged for the guy's gun and tried to wrestle it away from him.”
1. I left nothing out because not every post needs to be a rehash of the entire case. Just noting that merely going into a construction site would be nominal damages for the owners (none of whom were among the killers).
2. What would you do if a posse not affiliated with law enforcement showed up? Just let yourself be kidnapped?
Your #2 point impeaches your #1 point.
And I probably wouldn't grapple with someone who is armed like that especially when there are other armed people around me. That is stupid. The entire event is a parade of stupidity.
Don't case construction sites and burglarize them.
Don't round up a criminal as a private citizen unless there is literally no other option.
Don't be a jerk when confronted about an alleged crime like that. Keep your mouth shut and wait for the police to show up.
Don't fight people with your fists when you are surrounded with firearms.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Here a guy paid for stupidity with his life and the others, will ultimately die without any freedom ever again, because of the same.
It seems to me that Mr. Arbery´s reaching for the shotgun was the exercise of his own right to self-defense. The defendants were the initial aggressors.
You can be legally correct (assuming here trying to wrestle a firearm from someone was lawful self defense) but you can still be quite dead as a result. And if you have ever done firearms training before they tell you that you should assume if someone is trying to take your gun from you that they plan on using it against you. Again, perhaps his actions were lawful, but it got him killed, and I think most reasonable people in the process of having a gun taking from them in a violent encounter, when given the chance, are going to pull the trigger and not let the gun loose.
You correctly state the law of trespass to real property, but draw exactly the opposite conclusion. The addition of nominal damages shows that society places GREATER protection against invasions of real property like this. For every other tort, if you can't show any damages, you don't get any money. Notably, for trespass to PERSONAL property, you don't have a tort at all unless there is damage to it or you were deprived of it. Same thing goes for every claim of negligence - injury/damage is a necessary element.
By means of another comparison, nominal damages are available for violations of the First Amendment right to freedom of speech even if you can't prove damages. Do you think that also means that shows courts have devalued freedom of speech?
One last point - one of the major purposes of an award of nominal damages is that it allows the attachment of punitive damages. In Wisconsin law, we learn of a famous case where a company wanted to transport a pre-fabricated house across a corner of somebody's land. He refused, but they did it anyway. He couldn't show any damage to his land, but he was awarded $1 nominal damages and a significant punitive damage award on top of it.
§ 16-7-21 - Criminal trespass
"(b) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she knowingly and without authority:
(1) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person for an unlawful purpose;"
AFAIK there's no evidence of an unlawful purpose.
What I’m saying is that trespass as a tort recognizes that a harm is actually required for damages.
At least no evidence the jury [and mass media consumers] were allowed to hear. This was his long-established sticky-fingers MO.
And beyond all that, running off down the street after having been found on the property certainly is circumstantial evidence of motives short of driven snow.
Wrong section: "(3) Remains upon the land or premises of another person or within the vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant to depart."
The nessary notice was the "No Trespassing" sign(s)/ I've expounded elsewhere on this thread on how we know there were such sign(s), even absent anything said at trial (which I did not follow).
GandyDancer is lying once again. English expressly testified that there were no such signs.
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/georgia/jury-hears-testimony-owner-home-where-ahmaud-arbery-was-last-seen-alive/KWGD56QW4ZD3BAGC2HECMVS3YQ/
Unreliable witness. English started receiving death threats right after the shooting and said he likely isn't going to move into the house at all. He clearly wants/needs to distance himself from the whole thing. The contemporaneous accounts go the other direction.
Here, for example, is the article GandyDancer referred to. Relevant language:
And another one here:
Thanks. I appreciate someone actually offering evidence rather than denying it.
English is lying. He's been running away from the McMichaels from the very beginning, but I'm surprised that he carried it this far and appalled if this testimony wasn't impeached by the defense. As I said, there's a Daily Mail interview of him where he asserts that the property was posted and a picture in that article of a No Trespassing sign on the Port-a-Potty in front of the English residence. That it wasn't added after the shooting is proven by a Dec 2019 9-1-1 call in which he stated that there were No Tresspassing signs up.
I'm not making this up.
I thought that the defense attorney was incompetent and wrong-headed, but that ineffective assistance of counsel was a no-hoper. Now I'm not so sure.
@Life of Brian: Thanks, muchly. When I searched for the article that I remembered that one turned up, but I didn't notice that it contained English's statement. What seems to have happened is that the article has been revised, updated and expanded without indication that that was done. The picture of the sign on the Port-a-Potty (which, btw, had a different text than English claims, but was a perfectly clear No Trespassing sign) has been removed.
I wrote my response to Nieporent w/o having read yours, and that it triggered you to look at the question adds to my gratitude that he chose for once and finally to address the actual evidence. I am even more appalled by the defense if they didn't impeach. I only caught about 10 sec of the trial itself, an excerpt from the McMichael atty's opening statement in which he accepted the framing and argued for the McMichaels having probable cause ("probable suspicion", the law said) of a felony, which I thought stupid beyond words, though I thought I knew why he did it, but I hoped he'd preserved the issue. I still don't know if he did.
To clarify, I remember the earlier version of the article attributing the claimed text for the sign directly to English.
In a just world he would be charged with perjury. Ha!
The actual testimony, from someone with no motive whatsoever to lie, is that there was no sign. Rather than just realizing this means that a black guy might not be guilty, you fabricate a claim that the white guy who gave favorable testimony to him perjured himself.
Um, that's exactly what I said: he posted a sign AFTER the murder. (The property had no "notoriety" before the murder.) The first quote also says nothing about when the sign was posted.
You are. Every single word. There is no such quote from him in the Daily Mail article, no such picture, and no such 9-1-1 call. You just have the sads that white people can't get away with lynchings anymore.
Yeah, someone put together a timeline of some of English's early 911 calls, texts with neighbors, etc., here. It seems clear enough that he and his neighbors were working together to protect his property after he had some stuff stolen -- every bit of which he walked back after the shit hit the fan and he started getting death threats over it.
I get it -- the man is trying to save himself and his family from something that at most is indirectly related to them. But it's sad that the disingenuous folks around here are harping on his carefully-scripted later testimony and squeezing their eyes shut to the bloody obvious fact that he's lying his ass off.
This very subthread is chock-full of objective evidence to the contrary. You're just doubling down on your blinkered nonsense.
Um, the quote doesn't say after the murder, Too-Clever. It actually doesn't say anything about timing at all.
And if the signs were newly-placed after the incident and were not there when he was on the property, that's certainly something that would have been newsworthy at the time, when people were dissecting what happened and whether there was any basis for a civil arrest. Really fascinating that the contemporaneous accounts say not a word about it, no?
So your evidence of no trespassing is to admit to the trespassing? Stellar move there.
Walking through an open construction site is not trespassing.
You can keep on saying the same conclusory words over and over, Too-Clever, but that doesn't make them correct. Perhaps try engaging with the actual statute at issue, as even the non-lawyers are.
Pro tip (two, actually): First, you clearly mean (but aren't saying) criminal trespass, not trespass of any sort. Second, under the GA criminal trespass statute, the reason for walking through the open construction site matters.
So your blanket statement is utter bunk.
That is true. If you walk through to commit a crime, then you are guilty of trespass. Unfortunately for the Klan members here, the security videos show that Arbery did not walk through to commit a crime.
Oh, fascinating -- do those security videos have closed captions of his mental state? The videos would look exactly the same if he was wandering through the building looking around for something to steal -- just like his endless rap sheet of similar "jogging" escapades as I linked earlier -- but just happened not to find anything.
Cut the crap.
No; they show that on multiple occasions — including the night in question — he walked through the site without so much as touching, let alone taking, anything. I know, you see black skin so you assume, "Well, he must have been thinking about taking something."
I think seeing someone roaming around an inactive construction site who appears to not belong there when burglaries have been reported in the area is the definition of probable cause...
The law required EITHER probable cause of a felony (generally burglary over $500) or "immediate knowledge" of a crime to authorize a citizen's arrest. The McMichaels had the latter so did not need the former, and, anyway, Arbery attacked before any arrest was attempted.
The McMichaels had no knowledge, immediate or otherwise, of any crime.
And brandishing a firearm at someone and demanding that they stop is an attempted arrest.
No firearm was "brandished" at Arbery until Arbery was actually attacking Travis McMichael, when Travis McMichael attempted unsuccessfully to deter the attack and when the "brandishing", if that's what it was, was legal.
The demands to "Stop!" were made by Greg McMichael, whose pistol remained in its holster until after Arbery attacked.
Life of Brian has now successfully located (see upthread) the Daily Mail article whose current version still contains evidence of the assertion by Larry English in their interview with him that the property had No Trespassing sign(s). I'm grateful for his proof that I haven't been lying about this, despite all the smears to the contrary.
The jury had the benefit of English's trial testimony that there was not no trespassing signs, not what he may have said out of court. If he had made prior inconsistent statements, why did no defendant offer them to impeach him?
It's all a massive conspiracy. English perjured himself for no reason whatsoever; McMichael's lawyers, and Bryan's, decided not to do anything about it; not a single neighbor came forward to say that they had seen the signs; not a single law enforcement officer, or far right media provocateur, came forward to say that he saw the signs. Not a single video or photo has been produced to show signs. There was a 9-1-1 call, but nobody has thought to put that forward. All conspiracy, because a black guy must be guilty.
Our first house was in a subdivision that was being built out. There were always houses under construction for people, and very common to go in houses under constant just out of curiosity. Nobody was doing crimes. Just checking out the competition or whatever.
Once the expensive parts (appliances, light fixtures etc) started showing up they started locking the doors and nobody went in anymore.
Everyone did it.
The refrain of many a teenager. Now do the (responsible) parents' rejoinder.
I was married and had very young children. All the other responsible parents were in no position to lecture me on it because they did it too.
The builders didn’t care as long as there was no damage because most of us had been their customers when our house was built, a lot that weren’t their costumers were potential customers, either for the specific house if it were spec or a future custom build.
And regardless, you’re taking this out to left field because there was no legitimate belief on their part because they had no way of knowing where he was even coming from.
Were there burglaries reported in the area where you would freely roam construction sites? Were there no trespassing signs up?
Also just because you did something once does mean 1) it was legal and 2) in other circumstances it might not raise suspicion.
My upstairs tub in my first house being constructed was filled with an inch of pee, so many jackasses passing through.
Yeah. Like nobody's ever wandered through a construction site out of curiosity. I know I have.
And to repeat, there was no "string of burglaries."
Larry English had posted multiple videos of Arbery criminally trespassing on his property to a Facebook CrimeWatch group. Both McMichaels were familiar with his appearance from those videos.
This is the GA criminal trespass statute: https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21/
We know that The English properrty was posted, providing the "notice" necessary foir misdemeanor criminal trespass because
(a) Of course it was! What kind of fool would lose thousands of dollars in fishing gear and install security cameras but not post the property?
(b) On a 9-1-1 call in Dec 2019, available on YouTube (Chrome ate my bookmarks, long story, or I'd give the url) English SAYS the place is posted.
(c) After the Deb 23 shooting English was interviewed by the Daily Mail and SAID the property was posted. The article included a picture of the No Trespassing sign on the Port-a-Potty. but there were probably others.
Before English installed security cameras several thousand dollars in fishing gear had been stolen from his boat parked in the Satilla Rd house's carport.
There had also been the theft of a pistol from Travis' truck, parked a couple doors away from English's house.
Travis encountered Arbery in person on Feb 11 trespassing at the English house, but withdrew when SArbery made a gesture that he interpreted as reaching for, or threatening to reach for, a gun.
On Feb 23rd Greg McMichael saw Arbery running away from the English property ("jogging" in his Timberlands boots, if you believe that) and fetched Travis. They caught up with him and demanded he stop, which was perfectly legal, particularly since the GA citizen's arrest law gave them the right to arrest him (Travis had "immediate knowledge" of an Arbery crime), but Arbery bolted.
At some point neighbor Roddy Brian joined the chase and he ended up taking a cellphone video of Arbery's attack on Travis. (No actual attempt to arrest Arbery ever took place. ) At some point he had pulled up in front of Arbery and Arbery ran into the side of his truck, but there was littlo or no communication between him and the McMichaels.
I've gone on long enough, but will be happy to offer further details if you ask for them, and if I get back here (Reason's commenting software of course doesn't tell you about replies).
Where is the evidence of no trespassing signs?
Read what I wrote, jackass.
You have admitted you didn´t follow the trial. What is your source of information as to no trespassing signs? What you wrote is nothing but supposition.
He's desperately grasping — "he put up cameras so he must have put up signs," which makes no sense — but he's also lying. English testified under oath — not supposedly said in YouTube video that Gandydancer can't find — that there were no such signs.
(I did find a reference a few weeks ago in a news story to English saying that he posted signs after this became public to keep gawkers away. But his express testimony in this case was that there were no signs at the time Arbery was there.)
@Nonsentient: If you can locate a statement by English saying that he only put up signs after Feb 23rd 2020 I would be interested to see it. But the 9-1-1 call in which he said the property was posted was in Dec 2019.
I already posted a link to sworn testimony by English that there were no signs up. In response, you offer an imaginary 9-1-1 call.
No, I offered up a real 9-1-1 call posted to YouTube and an interview by English with the Daily Mail that another poster located the current version of. He also found another contemporaneous proof that English had "No Trespassing" signs up. I am of course aware that trying to prove to you what you don't want to believe is a fool's errand, and I can't be bothered to worry about that.
No. You offered up something you claim you heard but mysteriously can't find.
The Daily Mail is not an "interview" with English, and doesn't say that the property was posted in February. "Another poster" offered another link that also doesn't say that the property was posted in February.
And. There. Is. Actual. Sworn. Testimony. From. Larry. English.
No, I offered up a real 9-1-1 call which I listened to and a real Daily Mail article which I read but which has since been updated. I already explained the fact that I don't have the bookmarks (Chrome deleted them, and although I recently recovered most of them when I finally agreed to "sync" bookmarks the version I got back was from before the Arbery case.) You can choose to not believe me, but the fact that the other poster turned up the Daily Mail article is evidence that I am telling the truth. And if you can manage to turn up the 9-1-1 calls you will find out that I am telling the truth about that as well.
Don't worry. I'm sure your jackass-like capacity for denial will not be affected by little things like facts. Are you still claiming that Arbery was innocent of any crime?
Read what I wrote, jackass. No, English saying on multiple occasions, including before the shooting, that the property was posted is fact, not "supposition". Neither is the photo of the No Trespassing sign on the Port-a-Potty.
You have no evidence of English saying it even once, let alone on multiple occasions, let alone before the shooting.
So you are correct that it isn't a supposition. it's a fabrication.
You also have no evidence of any sign on any Porta-Potty, let alone one posted there before February. Weird how you see all these things that you can't find anywhere on the Internet.
And if you believe that, you are a racist SOB who gets his "information" from neo-nazi websites — presumably the same ones that taught you that the southern treason was called the "war of Northern Aggression" — because those are the only places saying he was wearing Timberland boots. The security video shows, and the autopsy report and actual news sources say he was wearing running shoes.
Juries are getting a lot of things right this week.
Not in GA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The three men who pursued and killed him because of a combination of bigotry and baseless suspicions have been convicted of felony murder and other crimes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Granted I haven't followed this case superclosely but what evidence do you have that 'bigotry' was involved except that the different parties were different races?
These days, what other "evidence" is needed?
Yeah everything is racist and if you don't agree with that then you are basically Hitler.
Guys like Life of Brian just can't stand the disrespect right-wing racists, misogynists, gay-bashers, and xenophobes must endure at the hands of the modern mainstream in an improving America.
"Granted I haven't followed this case superclosely but what evidence do you have that 'bigotry' was involved except that the different parties were different races?"
According to the AP:
“Mr. Bryan said that after the shooting took place before police arrival, while Mr. Arbery was on the ground, that he heard Travis McMichael make the statement: fucking nigger,” Dial said in testimony.
well, thats a wrap. This definitely proves this wouldn't have happened if it had been a white trespasser.
You asked for evidence. You are free to make whatever inferences you wish from this evidence.
My impression is that Travis McMichael is a racist, but his being a racist wpu;d be mere speculation on the part of Ahmaud Arbery at the point Arbery charged him and grabbed Travis' shotgun by the barrel. This is as irrelevant as the fact that Rosenbaum was a pedophile.
It will be very relevant if the federal prosecution comes to trial in February. I surmise that the Georgia prosecutor saw that her case was going well and didn't want to risk a reversal by injecting race into the record gratuitously.
I avoid work involving criminal law, but I expect that federal trial to be conducted (unless the racist murderers choose a plea bargain). Does anyone familiar with parallel prosecutions sense that the federal trial should not or will not be conducted?
I hope no plea bargain is offered. Let the final activity those defendants experience outside a prison involve a vivid recounting of their bigoted, violent conduct while they just sit there and take it.
Carry on, clingers. But, like the McMichaels have learned, only so far and so long as your betters permit.
Huh - I wonder why that claim never made it into Court?
Bryan denied it, McMichael denied it, and the prosecutors - despite the fact that such a statement having been given to police would have been useful to their case - didn't present any evidence of it.
I assume it might have been recorded by either Greg McMichael's or Roddy Bryan's phone. But that Travis said it (if he did) after Arbery punched him and forced him to shoot Arbery doesn't seem to me to have much probative value.
It is highly probative of malice.
Every post of yours is highly probative of malice.
Bryan didn'testify. I have read that Travis McMichael's racial slur was in Bryan's statement to police. Perhaps the prosecutor didn't want to risk a Burton error during the proof in chief.
I sense that this trial was focused -- properly -- on securing convictions of these violent misfits. The federal trial may be the better forum for demonstrating the racist nature of the defendants, their conduct, and the southern backwater culture that harbored them.
Under Texas Transportation Code § 521.029, you were required to get a Texas driver's license within 30 days of taking up residence. (The grace period was changed to 90 days in 2009.)
It doesn't really matter, but if you're planning on telling this story for the next 20 years, you might as well get that detail right.
"[S]ince I was only living in Texas temporarily,"
He didn't take up residence.
You can in fact "take up residence" "temporarily".
A person has one, and only one, legal residence at a time. It's where they consider their permanent home.
No; you're confusing residence and domicile. One can have many of the former, but only one of the latter.
One can generally have only one drivers license. Having more that one is usually a crime.
That's… true, but not responsive to what I said.
I don't think that 'you can only be a resident of a single state for all purposes' is accurate. A couple of examples:
First: "A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the state in which his or her or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one state and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby state to which they commute each day, then the member has two states of residence and..."
Second: "If a person maintains a home in two states and resides in both states for certain periods of the year, they may, during the period of time they actually reside in a particular state, purchase a firearm in that state."
I would be very interested in that. Any cites or links?
I ask this as someone who spends roughly 6 months each year in one of two states, and the other half the year in the other. MT in the summer, and AZ in the winter. I make sure that we spend maybe an extra week in MT every year. They have zero sales tax, and my CCL allows me to bypass the usual background check, since the state has already done one.
The underlined 'Second' is a link to the quoted text from the ATF's 'Question and Answer' pages. That page cites 27 CFR 478.11. 'Example 2' under 'State of Residence' reads:
"A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y."
Depends on the law... Texas election law,
"(d) A person does not acquire a residence in a place to which the person has come for temporary purposes only and without the intention of making that place the person's home."
Think about it this way, you have 2 homes, you live in one residence in another state for 6 months and a day, the rest you live in the other. To which should you have a license and voting? You can only have one.
The law isn't that you have to swap your license and voting every 3 months. You have a primary, and you have secondary. Your intent is what matters.
C’mon, man. They chased an innocent guy down and shot him down in the street for no reason. ON VIDEO! Obviously their suspicion wasn’t near reasonable - given more than a year they couldn’t come up with anything plausible to defend themselves.
He was killed by their raw ignorance, with (probably) a dash of racism mixed in. They got what they deserved because they murdered a guy for no reason. It wasn’t the looking like ignorant rednecks that did them in, it was acting like ignorant ignorant rednecks that got ‘em.
The justification valid or not was there was burglaries and Ahmaud had been in the offlimits areas before. Theres no reason to assume they wouldn't have done the same with a guy of a different race.
“ Theres no reason to assume they wouldn't have done the same with a guy of a different race.”
If you believe that I have bridge in Brooklyn to sell you…
Are you claiming that no nonblack people are ever attacked by suspicious vigilante dogooders?
I am claiming that based on the circumstances, including their history of racism, and the entirety of American history regarding racism and assumptions about criminality, pretending that the same thing would have happened to a white guy, is incredibly credulous of you.
you criticize 'assumptions of criminality' by making one? by the way it might amaze you to know but white guys do die too. Tons of them by police. There was a guy who was shot simply for playing with a garden hose on his doorstep and I don't remember you crying over it.
Yes, dude, as a white guy with three white kids and a white wife (along with lots of white relatives), I am all for the police randomly killing white people for no reason!! You really got us!!
AmosArch's comments make a lot of sense if you just happen to be completely ignorant of just about everything in history. But if you ignore that, his constant demand for citations is really incisive.
They also make sense if you are a bigot trying to defend bigots and bigotry.
Those comments are deplorable and unpersuasive, but they make sense to the author.
Well there is reason to believe that in their social media posts, but the judge wouldn’t let the prosecution bring it in. Probably the correct legal call, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I've been accosted by white yahoo amateur vigilantes before. If I later found out they used the n word once in a facebook message does that mean I was delusional and it never happened?
You're requiring a very high standard of proof all of the sudden.
Some yahoos heard a guy that was snooping around before was snooping around again where some burglaries had happened. They grab guns and head out to confront him for exactly that reason...
Not exactly reptilian overlord theory level. I assume the legal system ideally operates on Occam's razor?
I just remembered something about the prosecutor under indictment over this. In 2010 there was a really bad police shooting in Brunswick County. One of the worst I’ve ever seen. The victim’s name was Caroline Small. You can look it up, the AJC did a great long form on it a few years later.
At the time of this shooting the now indicted prosecutor was running in a special election for the open DA position. The GBI wanted to prosecute the cops who shot Smalls, so Johnson cut a deal with police leadership - support me for DA and I’ll quash this shit. So they did and she did even in presenting false shit to the grand jury.
So she came in a corrupt badge licker and will hopefully go out the same way. Wonder how much bullshit in between
Somebody needs to investigate her entire term.
Seriously, someone Reason person should look at the Small case. It’s truly awful.
These posts claiming Travis said the n word and that should be be definitive proof of a hate crime have gotten me thinking.
If this is the new standard for white guys shouldn't it be the standard for everyone? So if a black guy shot another black guy and you find evidence that he said the nword in a rap video or text message or something then he's also automatically guilty of a hate crime? If not wouldn't that be an equal protection violation.?
You should quite while behind, AmosArch. Unless your contrarian, misfit nature inclines you to prefer to be known as a pathetic bigot, in which case . . . enjoy!
First of all, I never said anything about hate crime. I hate that stuff. We’re talking about things that contributed to their actions.
You’re dismissing a lot of established items that show that these guys aren’t big fans of black people. So let’s turn your question around - what would it take to make you think that race could have been a factor in their behavior?
a verified history of antiblack prejudice and violence. Something a little more than the prosecution leaking a claim that someone said someone said which they both deny. Especially when the media are on record gleefully and unashamedly mischaracterizing said 'evidence'. Believe it or not the vast majority of people who use racial slurs do not go on to take part in racially motivated killings.
Even if he was guilty whole hat it does not necessarily follow we need to remake society in the way sjws demand which is frankly the main reason why everyone is so interested in the trial. The racial justice crowd doesn't care about Arbery as much as you seem to or any more than the defense sorry to say.
Open wider, AmosArch. The American mainstream isn't done shoving progress down your bigoted, whining, powerless conservative throat. Not nearly.
And be nicer, or perhaps you will learn that your betters need not be quite so gracious in victory in the settled-but-not-over culture war.
Amos, ultimately it doesn’t matter if they were virulent racists or mild racists or practicing Anti-Racists. I admit that I don’t know and I really don’t care.
The thing that matters is that they chased a guy down who there was no reason to suspect had done anything wrong, trapped him, and shot him. Motivation doesn’t enter into it at this point.
"These posts . . . have gotten me thinking."
You're gonna need evidence to support that allegation. I haven't seen any yet in all the typing you've done.
And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.
You got it backwards. I dont need to disprove the theory that travis et al leapt out of bed one day and decided they were going to kill an innocent black guy and ruin their life for sh**s and giggles. Its up to ilya and co to prove it. Ideally beyond a reasonable doubt legally and a preponderance above an unconfirmed leak and lying about a license plate morally before they lather themselves up for woke plaudits, rafts of new race based legislation. and billions of dollars of our money for more overpaid racial justice professorships, commissars and bureacrats.
Of course not. Nobody has espoused such a theory. Rather, the problem is that they saw a black guy and decided that he wasn't innocent, because he was black.
and he had been around before in an area with breakins. Thats more confirmed than your psychic readinhg.
You're not really helping yourself here.
"There were a couple of crimes committed in a neighborhood. At different times than when those crimes were committed, a black guy was seen there. Therefore, the black guy is a suspect in those crimes," says no non-racist.
Why does this conservative blog attract so many bigots?
The hiring committees of legitimate law schools should consider that point regularly and carefully.
"...they saw a black guy and decided that he wasn't innocent, because he was black."
Nonsense. They were absolutely right, and Travis at least had "immediate knowledge", that Arbery was a criminal.
They were absolutely right? In what reality? It’s obvious that Arbery hadn’t committed a crime.
They accosted an innocent guy and shot him. Racist or not, they were ignorant as ignorant can be. Now they pay.
You are an evidence-impervious loon if you imagine that Arbery had committed no crimes. We have the video of him committing criminal trespass on the day he was shot, and that's just for starters.
Where is the video of him committing criminal trespass on the day he was shot? You are just making shit up again.
To Gandy, jogging while black is a crime.
The property was posted "No Trespassing". That fact, and video of Arbery trespassing is here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8319753/Footage-unidentified-man-walking-construction-site-12-days-Ahmaud-Arbery-killed.html
GA law:
Gandy is of course lying; nothing in that article says that there was a no trespassing sign posted at the time Arbery was there. This is the only reference in that story: "which has a sign posted outside, warning: 'Trespassers will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.'"
The word "has" is present tense. The article was published three months after the murder. So — if the Daily Mail story is accurate — and it's a British tabloid, so that's questionable, plus it cites no source — then we can conclude that in May 2020, there was a sign posted.
But it says nothing about what was there in February 2020, and there is not one hint there or anywhere that there was such a sign there at that time, and there's sworn testimony from the person most in position to know that there wasn't.
Nobody, including the homeowner, the McMichaels or their lawyers, or any other neighbors, has claimed that the site was posted at the time of the murder.
So either it's a massive Bellemorian conspiracy, or the site wasn't posted.
In fact in the original version of the article, which is the one I remembered, the statement about the sign was a quote from English about the signage on the property BEFORE Feb 23. And, again, English said in a 9-1-1 call in Dec 2019 on the occasion of seeing Arbery once again trespassing on his property that the house was posted.
I don't have to convince you, I'm glad to say. That would be a fool's errand in the face of your determination to ignore facts.
But if you actually want to know the truth find the YouTube channel that posted the 9-1-1 calls (over multiple videos), or some other source of them.
Ah, there's an "original version of the article" that was mysteriously swapped out, that nobody can find. Well, (((you know who))) control the media, so I'm sure they changed the story just to make you look stupid and get some white people convicted.
I mean, a normal person would think that he read it wrong, or misremembers it, or even that the Daily Mail got the story wrong and corrected it. (Yeah, I know the idea of the Daily Mail correcting a story is implausible.) But not GandyDancer. It's all a massive conspiracy.
And of course there's a 9-1-1 call that he won't link to that says this. But of course that's not what the 9-1-1 call from English from December says, so GandyDancer pretends he can't find it.
Amos,
You misunderstood.
What you need to provide evidence of is that you've been thinking. Your theories and comments are devoid of logical coherence.
The only thing your various comments have made apparent is that you have a strong emotional reaction to the idea that race played a part in this. You haven't provided any coherent reasoning either supporting the alternative hypothesis that your emotional reaction indicates you wish were true (i.e., race played no part in the McMichaels' reactions or behavior) or any coherent reasoning stemming from that emotional reaction in an attempt to make sense of anyone else's argument or your own feelings.
^^^^^ Pot calling out what he imagines to be a kettle.
Only his fellow Pots agree.
"...I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that sentiment."
Yeah, you've alteady told us that you an Asshole are twins separated at birth.
Saying the N word is nor proof of anything in theory. But in todays politicized justice who knows.
" Saying the N word is nor proof of anything in theory. "
Nor is writing it, as Prof. Volokh and his fans demonstrate (or at least claim) with remarkable frequency (roughly once each three weeks) at this White, male, movement conservative blog).
If favoritism such as this was attempted in this case, how many other cases has it been successful? How many crimes were not investigated or how many innocents were accused? Convicted?
Yeah that’s my point. It happened at the beginning of her career and it happened at the end. Whenever it could benefit her it probably happened.
And somebody needs to investigate the entire 10 years.
Except that she was right to conclude that shooting Arbery was fully justified self-defense.
Just like Caroline Small.
And apparently she was not right to make that decision. That’s the jury’s decision. And unlike you they watched the fucking trial.
Unlike you (and maybe the jury) I'm not determinedly ignorant.
Are you claiming there was no probable cause for felony murder?
Get real
The McMichaels obviously committed no crime so of course there was no cause to charge felony murder.
The absence of any actual argument in your sputtering earns the derision I regard it with.
There is nothing obvious about that. An unarmed man was shot to death during the course of an aggravated assault. A fully instructed jury, which heard Travis McMichael´s testimony and evaluated his credibility, found proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to all defendants on both the felony murder and the antecedent felony. The facts were basically undisputed, although the inferences drawn therefrom were for the jury´s resolution. Of course there was probable cause.
You are a delusional fool.
A man who armed himself with a shotgun in the course of an aggravated assault on another was shot to death in obvious self-defense. Juries do all sorts of shit, but we have all the ervidence they saw are are free to notice that they got it wrong.
You have admitted that you didn´t follow the trial. The issue of self-defense was fully vetted by the jurors, who had the opportunity to observe Travis McMichael´s testimony and had the benefit of the contemporaneous post-shooting statements of all defendants. That they paid close attention to the facts and the law can be seen from the aquittals on some counts of Gregory McMichael and Bryan. The jury fully and fairly considered the assertion of self-defense and found beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution disproved that assertion.
That is worth far more than your unhinged rantings.
When does the prosecutor come to trial? That should be an interesting proceeding to watch.
A lot less interestng than if they had been found not guilty.
That prosecutor served up a heaping helping of home cooking. It is gratifying to see her get her comeuppance.
Returning to post's focus on the prosecutor, this was not her first run at covering up a homicide: http://www.news4jax.com/news/georgia/2021/09/03/opposing-attorneys-had-raised-flags-about-former-brunswick-da-jackie-johnson/
I didn't follow the Rittenhouse trial closely, but I did follow summaries. It seems to me the Rittenhouse case might have been differently decided if Rittenhouse had chased the rioters, rather than the rioters chasing him.
Perhaps the lesson from these two cases is that chasing someone and killing him is still frowned upon by the law.
Yes, self defense is predicated on you not initiating the conflict.
Honestly, the main takeaway from the Rittenhouse trial is the same one as from the OJ case, back in the day: if the defence is extremely well-funded and employs star lawyers, the same needs to be true of the prosecution too, otherwise obvious miscarriages of justice occur.
I know in the US the Rittenhouse case is considered debatable in some way, but the rest of the world sees it as the US yet again letting a racist psycho gunman get away with racist murder - this time because tens of thousands of far right nutjobs donated huge sums to help one of their own get away with murder. It is deeply shaming for the US, and a clear and obvious failure of the US justice system.
Yea in the US its considered lawful to defend yourself by any means available against a deadly attack. Whatever part of the world you live in that says you just let them kill you is the psycho part.
There's no part of the world where you aren't allowed to defend yourself. Rittenhouse wasn't defending himself, though, that's the absurd nonsense his defence was based on and that the world laughs at. We've all seen the videos, we know what the psycho did, and it's never, ever OK to do stuff like that.
Then in Rittenhouse’s situation you be, you know, dead.
And your type throws around “racist” like most people say “good morning”. The guy got attacked by a psycho violent whack job and did what he had to do to protect himself. If you’d prefer to be beaten to death in that situation, then have at it.
Actually, there are plenty of parts of the world where you are not allowed to defend yourself with even non-lethal violence.
As for "that psycho", why don't you tell us, exactly, what he did, since you've seen "the videos"? And maybe add exactly why it is "never, ever OK" to do it.
"there are plenty of parts of the world where you are not allowed to defend yourself with even non-lethal violence."
Name one. (Of course, you can't, it's an absurd lie.)
"why don't you tell us, exactly, what he did, since you've seen "the videos"? "
Far right psycho went to a place where he hoped to shoot black people. People tried to stop him, so he shot them instead.
"maybe add exactly why it is "never, ever OK" to do it."
If you need that explaining...
What similarity at all is there to the OJ case
"What similarity at all is there to the OJ case"
Obviously, as I explicitly said in the comment that you're replying to, that the defendants in each case were able to achieve a clear and obvious miscarriage of justice because they were able to massively outspend the prosecution.
OJ case: rampant police corruption and misfeasance. Moreover, as my Crim Law prof (who routinely defended them) pointed out, in murder cases, there are crimes of passion, and crimes of premeditation. The crimes of passion are the bloody ones. The problem is the use of the knife - it’s a horrible weapon for a premeditated murder, unless you are very skilled with it, because otherwise it leaves blood everywhere, and if it is in you, you have to clean it up. I still cannot believe that OJ could have made the two kills, showered, changed his clothes, ditched the old ones so they were never found, and then made his plane to Chicago. Maybe barely possible, given the timing, but far more than needed for a reasonable doubt. But I have a very hard believing that OJ had the capacity to plan it out and execute it successfully, but then tried to steal his Heisman trophy from a casino in Las Vegas, which, at the time, had more extensive video surveillance than any other civilian facilities in this country. Stuuupid!
Rittenhouse: all three assailants/victims had attacked him with deadly force. Rosenbaum had threatened KR with death earlier, then attacked him from ambush, grabbed his gun, tried to take it away from him, and got shot for it. Huber knocked him down with his skateboard, as Rittenhouse was trying to flee, and hit him on the shoulders or head with it, either of which could have killed him or caused great bodily injury. And Lefty GG pointed his gun at KR, KR pointed his back. GG raised his gun, so did KR. GG dropped his muzzle back down to point at RK, and RK shot him. All perfect examples of self defense. There was no real evidence to the contrary, and a lot of video, both street level, and from drones, to back up his story.
Oh, and OJ was Black, while his alleged victims were white. KR is supposedly half Hispanic, and his three alleged victims were all lily white.
As I said repeatedly and explicitly, the similarities are the a) overwhelming defence advantages that led to a miscarriage of justice and b) the overwhelming weight of evidence makes the miscarriage of justice obvious to the world.
FWIW, I think you've forgotten just how much evidence there was against OJ, and how absurd the verdict was. Despite the reasonable argument that the police had engaged in misconduct, the DNA (and other, police-didn't-fabricate) evidence was overwhelming. There really isn't any doubt there - and of course there is none at all since his various confessions.
Kyle's case should have never went to trial. Your theory is unhinged. So you're saying that defense attorney Richards is in anyway equivalent to Johnny Cochran? Richards sucked. Kyle was acquitted because it was blatantly obvious based on the evidence and testimony. Even the prosecution witnesses ended up being defense witnesses.
Kyle was blatantly innocent. The killing in the OJ case not so much
I am just a civil litigator, but none of the CDL I know think that Rittenhouse's lawyers did a particularly great job — let alone were "star lawyers." It's just that the facts were on Rittenhouse's side.
"It's just that the facts were on Rittenhouse's side."
ROFL. You can't possibly be serious.
In backwater Wisconsin, with that judge, the facts seemed enough to enable Rittenhouse to get by.
There were no winners in that courtroom. From several perspectives.
You can't go out and say anything you post can you?
A spellchecker (or something similar) seems to have mangled what you might have intended to be a comprehensible sentence in standard English.
I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.
I mean, the third guy expressly testified that Rittenhouse only shot him after he pointed a gun at him! Rosenbaum chased Rittenhouse. The other guy swung a skateboard at Rittenhouse's head while he was trying to get away from the mob.
" third guy expressly testified that Rittenhouse only shot him after he pointed a gun at him"
Yes, and? If you start shooting people, and people try to stop you, it isn't 'self-defence' if you shoot them too. It's just part of your shooting spree.
There is no doubt that lethal force against Rittenhouse was justified as a result of the ongoing emergency that he created. Self defence doesn't come into it. He was committing violent, racially motivated crimes, and bystanders had every right to gun him down to stop him.
It is astonishing that relatively liberal Americans like you can believe the utter nonsense coming from the far right. Rittenhouse would have been killed on the spot if he were black, and no-one would have batted an eyelid. Self defence is a disgusting claim.
There was no evidence introduced that he was "racially motivated," and saying that they were "crimes" begs the question. He didn't "start shooting people." He shot one person, Rosenbaum. And Rosenbaum had chased him; he didn't chase Rosenbaum.
After that, he tried to run away; he didn't run around shooting other people. He only shot Huber and Grosskreutz after they attacked him. Now, it's arguable that Huber and Grosskreutz also reasonably believed they were trying to stop a shooter, and it was therefore an unfortunate misunderstanding in which both sides were justified, but there's no way you're going to establish b.a.r.d. that Rittenhouse wasn't acting in self-defense under those facts.
Which elements of self defense did the prosecution disprove beyond a reasonable doubt with the Rittenhouse case? And specifically point to the evidence, admitted by the court into the case, that supports your position.
There was ample reasonable doubt that the prosecution negated Rittenhouse's claim of self-defense. He wasn't on trial for being a fool (for which there was overwhelming evidence).
What's the solution? The system is great. Best ever.
Ultimately, flawed humans run the system. If all men were angles we wouldn't need a justice system.
Prosecutorial discretion is a feature not bug....right?
The justice system is largely directed by elected officers. Ultimately the people are getting exactly what they want.
maybe the flaw is the government managed, qualified immunity. Acountability through civil litigation is often denied
This. If there were at least an alternative path to seek some justice through a civil suit, you may be able to deter abusive behavior (whether the original crime by the favored perpetrator or the later coverup by powerful cronies). In addition, a civil suit might be able to obtain evidence that is otherwise unavailable and could highlight the injustice through additional publicity of the facts that the local prosecutor decided didn't warrant a case.
We have to end qualified immunity. It is a pox on our justice system and incentivizes all sorts of abuse by the government agents it protects.
You can't be small government and pro qualified immunity.
And thus we see exactly how stripping Americans of their common-law right to pursue private prosecutions furthers tyranny.
Anyone should have the right to go before a grand jury and make their case. Let the grand jury decide if they have enough for an indictment. Civil society groups can be organized to collectively exercise the right as a check on elected officials.
I like the way you're thinking.
We have quite a blue wall of silence regarding the J6 trespassers don't we?
The VC really avoids that subject like the plague for some reason.
The authorities are still collecting those deplorable, amateurish malcontents; prosecuting those who have been charged; and imposing imprisonment (from a few months to three years or so, so far) on those who are convicted.
The entertaining portion of the program will develop when the most clueless misfits go to trial and learn the cost -- measured in years -- of rejecting a resolution by compromise.
https://reason.com/2021/11/18/dont-punish-the-qanon-shaman-or-anyone-for-demanding-a-jury-trial/
Binion's argument is unpersuasive, but probably popular among disaffected misfits, antisocial contrarians, and anti-government cranks.
Everything on the Rittenhouse trial was discussed in great detail and mostly lied about the MSM but if you wanted to get the truth just watch the videos.
This case not so much. The trigger guy gets the book thrown at him. What were the other two guys involvement?
Not seeing much explanation of what happened out there
I'm having a hard time with the guy who drove up later in the truck being guilty of murder. That seems like a stretch.
Sure, but he was not charged with "driving up later." He was charged with being part of the overall crime. McMichael didn't just chase after Arbery, catch up to him, and shoot him; rather, McMichael and Brayn used their two trucks to try to corner Arbery so he couldn't get away. It was after Arbery was cornered that McMichael brandished his gun at Arbery and assaulted him and then killed him when Arbery tried to defend himself. One course of felonious conduct. Felony murder.
David (or other lawyer types), I'd be grateful for a felony murder lawsplainer. Not just this case (I didn't follow it closely enough to know what each perp did), but generally.
I think I grok the general outline - If Bob and Bill decide to rob a bank, that's an inherently evil and dangerous thing, so they are both on the hook if a teller faints and hits his head or whatever.
Hopefully, from the other side of the spectrum, we had a subdivision go in next door. In the interval between the road being bulldozed in and houses going up people started using it as a dump. The city told us if we could get photos with license plates they would follow up and amazingly, they did. At least one guy came back and picked up his garbage under threat or prosecution, and the city called us to verify he had.
In any event, it became the neighborhood sport. Someone would see a pickup head up the road off hours, cell phones would ring, and several neighbors would be out with cell phone cameras to take pics as the dumper drove out. If a neighbor lost his temper and pulled out a gun to shoot one of the dumpers, I would hope the people who showed up merely to take pictures wouldn't be liable (assuming they had no reason to suspect a neighbor would go nuts)????
Presumably the facts in the GA case are more like the former than latter?
(I read the wiki article and it wasn't hugely informative)
You do grok the general outline. Baseline murder generally requires intent to kill. (There's also something called some variation of 'depraved indifference' murder, which is basically acting so recklessly as to make it effectively intentional.) Felony murder eliminates the intent requirement. It says that if someone dies in the course of you committing a felony, you're guilty of murder regardless of whether you tried to kill anyone or wanted to kill anyone. (Some states require that the felony be an inherently dangerous one, but others say any felony.) In fact, you can be convicted of felony murder even if you had nothing to do with the death. For example, in your bank scenario, if the cops arrive and shoot a bystander while trying to stop you, you're guilty of felony murder even if you never fired a gun at all. Sometimes even if they shoot your partner in the stickup, you can be charged with his murder. (I am not a Georgia attorney, but I believe from what I've read that their version is very broad: any felony at all counts.) That's exactly for the reason you say: if you decide to commit a felony, you're responsible for what happens.
To answer your question about the illegal dumping: you have to be a participant in the underlying felony. It does not sound like there was any agreement among the neighbors to commit a crime, so you're not a co-conspirator. Nor did you assist, so you're not an accomplice. So you should be okay. (Hypothetically, of course. Don't try this at home.) But of course if you all got frustrated and decided to give a dumper a beating to teach him a lesson, and then one guy pulled out a gun, that would be a different story.
This is the clown who continually accuses ME of lying.
Of course Arbery was never cornered and could easily have gotten away. All he had to do was keep running down the right verge of the road after he passed the McMichael truck.
Bryan had no real idea what was going on. He was in the position of someone who sees a thief fleeing from a mall cop who trips the thief (who has indeed misdemeanor shoplifted, as it happens). The thief gets up and attacks the mall cop, who shoots him after a struggle over the mall cop's gun. Somehow the jury convicts the mall cop of murder, and the tripping shoper of felony murder.
One of the three White men standing trial for the death of Ahmaud Arbery said they had the 25-year-old Black man "trapped like a rat" before he was fatally shot, a police investigator testified Wednesday.
[...]
"He was trapped like a rat," Greg McMichael said, according to a transcript of their recorded interview Nohilly read in court. "I think he was wanting to flee and he realized that something, you know, he was not going to get away."
Who should I believe, you or my lying eyes?
I've never said Greg McMichael wasn't a boastful moron, merely that Travis (and hence he) are not guilty of murder (or felony murder). If you watch the video it's perfectly clear that Arbery had nothing but road in front of him after he passed the McMichael truck.
Not your lying eyes, obviously. Nor your lying ears. Both are dishonest and unreliable. They lead you to read articles that were never written and hear 9-1-1 calls that were never made.
And to disregard the statements of everyone that make you look like a fool, like Larry English and Greg McMichael himself. Also Bryan:
That Arbery might have gotten tired of running is neither here nor there. He was never so tired of running that he couldn't run and he was theefor never "trapped" so long as he had open road ahead of him, never mind off-road escape paths tp his left and right. Just stop lying about what we can plainly see.
As to, "articles that were never written and hear 9-1-1 calls that were never made", I've found further evidence that I am not making up the Daily Mail article. Not that I give a damn about whether you admit to believing me, but here is a picture of the Port-A-Potty with the "No Trespassing" sign on it as I described being in the earlier version of the Daily Mail article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReYyiMLOOEE&t=85s (Again, English is lying about the signs not being there before Arbery was shot -- what this demonstrates AGAIN, is that -I- was not lying. Unlike you.)
I've located trial interrogation of English about the 9-1-1 calls on the occasion of Arbery's first cameo and on the occasion of the white couple trespassing. If you really think I'm lying I repeat my invitation to you to find others in proof of your case. I knopw what I heard and am unworried that therte is any proof against me.
I've also located English's denial at trial that he posted the property. Your (or was it your doppelganger's?) claim that his doing so ~"wouldn't make sense" is just bizarre, of course. With his safety at stake English has been a determined liar since immediately after the shooting. But I guess that when he spoke to the DM he didn't realize that telling the truth about the sign might get him in bad odor with the "Truth" Police.
I will further add that, now that I know where the Port-A-Potty was in relation to the house the cross-the-street security camera that caught the neighbor calling English should show the sign on the day of Arbery's last trespass. Again, English's recitation to the Daily Mail of the text of his sign(s) did not match the one pictured in the article, and that is siome indication that there were multiple signs, but if the sign is visible in that video that WOULD be dispositive even if its absence wouldn't be.
I am also very interested in the text of English's postings of videos to Facebook in view of his later convenient denials that he suspected Arbery of stealing from him. I expect they would further prove him a liar.
And I suspect the Arbery case defense counsel to have again been ignorant and incompetent and venal and cowardly and in all ways thieves of the money they got paid in failing to pursue these proofs.
Your link has to gratuitously add in the adjective "white" to the description. Thus its a clown link.
Your explanations are very weak also.
The McMichaels are probably the least racist people you’ve ever met!
more clown
So at that moment he knew that Arbery was not guilty and deserved detention. He also knew the other guy was going to end up shooting Arbery.
Not seeing it. Seems very far fetched. In normal times it would seem like an easy appeal but in todays politicized justice maybe not.
I, too, was once a minor beneficiary of a similar attitude. In about 1969, as a college student late to class, I was caught in a speed trap in Austin, Texas. There was a lot of friction between police and college students at that time. But I was in Naval ROTC and, as luck would have it, this occurred on a Tuesday when we wore our uniforms to campus. I've no doubt my being in uniform is what got me a warning instead of a ticket.
I worked with a guy in Fort Collins, CO, who was in an AF reserve unit in UT. Every month, he would buzz through on I-80, and would occasionally get pulled over. He was a Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCM - E-9), the WY state police were all ex military enlisted, and E-9s were gods to them when they were in the service. Never got a ticket, but would occasionally get warnings to slow down a bit. I, on the other hand, got more than one ticket from them on I-80 for being a bare 10 mph over the speed limit.
This blog's comments have some bloodthirsty MFers, at least when it's black blood.
Not really. Lets use the use excessive use of force arguments against Kyle and apply the same analysis to Michael Byrd's killing of Ashely Babbitt
And you'll see some 180's
Obsolete right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and the core audience of a White, male, movement conservative blog festooned with the misappropriated franchises of several strong, liberal-libertarian law schools.
What bothers me most about both these cases is the failure of the DAs. In the Rittenhouse case the 5A mess and Brady violations were more than enough to justify granting an appeal in the event of a guilty verdict. In the Arbery case the DA's closing misstated the law (it is not do you think he was guilty, rather did the DA prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was guilty) and the jury instructions ignored the rule of lenity in terms of the confusing citizens arrest law. While Arbery was not as bad as Rittenhouse it still may be enough for an appeal. Not to mention how bad the first DA was in the Arbery case.
Even if Arbery's killers managed to get some old-timey Georgia "justice," what is the likelihood they could escape the federal prosecution?
If what bothers you most is the prosecutors' conduct, and not the conduct of Arbery's murders and Rittenhouse, you might be a ready-for-replacement conservative loser.