The Volokh Conspiracy
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Principles, Enforcement, and SB8
Two points in response to Ilya Somin.
Two quick points regarding Ilya Somin's kind response on principles and SB8. Ilya argues that courts can't permit a state to block "meaningful federal judicial review of laws that might violate constitutional rights." To that end, courts can depart from general procedural rules—about sovereign immunity, proper parties, and so on—to the point of hearing suits against "the clerk, the janitor, the bailiff, or whatever other less-exalted official needs to be stopped to forestall SB 8 lawsuits." And he argues that there's no need to wait for legislative action, as judicial review is supposed to protect our rights when elected officials won't. (As Justice Kagan asked, "isn't the point of a right that you don't have to ask Congress?")
1. I want to be clear that I'm not accusing Ilya of being unprincipled! In his view, the "silly and artificial" distinctions barring such suits aren't really part of the law, and a more general rights-protective principle is. I see this position as perfectly coherent, albeit mistaken. My argument is addressed to those who don't see such distinctions as silly and artificial, who don't see a general rights-protective principle as trumping ordinary procedural doctrines, etc. If one accepts that fed-courts doctrines routinely (and often for good reason) get in the way of plaintiffs who want to make constitutional arguments, and if one accepts that governments routinely structure their conduct with this in mind, then one shouldn't endorse a good-for-this-train-only exception here. (Cf. Will Baude on the "too bad, so sad" principle.)
2. We should distinguish between the source of a legal right and the source of the legal means for its enforcement. For example, we all have a legal right not to be kidnapped. If we bring an ordinary tort suit against our kidnappers, or if we raise this right as a defense in any custody suit the kidnappers bring, we ought to win. That's judicial review for you. But judicial review is a hopelessly ineffective means of enforcing this right; that's why we need legislatures to create police forces to track down kidnappers and arrest them. Likewise, the Fourteenth Amendment distinguishes our constitutional rights from the "appropriate legislation" we might need to "enforce" them, such as the cause of action in 42 U.S.C. § 1983 or the criminal prohibition in 18 U.S.C. § 242—which the courts couldn't have made up on their own, despite the extraordinary chilling effects the freedmen faced. (If your response is "But they made up Bivens," see point #1 above.) Everyone agrees that laws like SB8 are already subject to judicial review, first in state court and then in the Supreme Court. If that isn't enough to protect our rights effectively, and if we need a novel cause of action to meet the novel challenge, then we might well have to look to Congress for that change, not just to the courts.
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"sovereign immunity"
Who's the sovereign in this country?
Is it Texas?
Among others.
Our country has a system of dual sovereignty. Texas is indeed a sovereign.
I suppose it falls to me to defend the "nationalist" view.
Who's the sovereign? "We the people of the United States."
A state *by itself* isn't the same as the United States.
In any case, if you want to call a state a sovereign, you still have to consider the possibility that it's waived its immunity.
"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made under their authority...
"In all cases...in which a state shall be a party, the supreme court shall have original jurisdiction."
Now, I admit I'm doing a naively literal interpretation, but this language seems to apply to suits against a state by an individual under the Constitution. After the 11th Amendment, it means suits by a citizen of the same state (since suits by foreigners and out-of-staters are banned).
If you want to keep sovereign immunity, you have to do what the Supremes did in Hans v. Louisiana, using the 19th century version of the penumbras and emanations.
You’re entitled to argue for a different constitution than the one we have.
But you’d have to persuade 3/4 of the states of your view as outlined in the provision for amending the constitution. And I suspect you’ll find persuading 3/4 of them that they shouldn’t have any of the powers or rights of sovereigns will a tough sell. You’d have to modify the 9th, 10th, and 11th amendments, which expressly reserve all rights and powers not specifically delegated to the federal government to the states, and constitutionalizes the concept of state sovereign immunity.
Argument by assertion.
The 11th Amendment doesn't apply to suits against one's own state.
The 10th Amendment citation is question-begging.
The 9th Amendment involves rights of the people - do you want to invoke the rights of the people to justify protecting a state from suit?
And I don't recall the result in Ex Parte Young being codified in a constitutional amendment.
When it chooses, the Supremes can create an exception to its own doctrine, making workarounds for favored plaintiffs to avoid the roadblock of sovereign immunity. Suing state officials in their capacity as state officials is such an exemption, so massive that it basically sends the message "sovereign immunity is a sacred constitutional principle except where it isn't."
So, really, I support dropping the idea of sovereign immunity when a person sues his own state, whereas the Supreme Court conducts angels-on-pinheads debates about when sovereign immunity is sacred and when it doesn't apply.
Somin is demanding an extraordinary solution to a nonexistent problem. If TX courts ignore the Casey-compliant undue burden exemption provided for in SB8 and award damages for a Casey-compliant abortion it will be time enough for SCOTUS to step in. Until then it's premature and unnecessary.
https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB8/id/2395961
Again, whether SB8 complies with Casey (I don't think it does) is a matter of statutory interpretation that courts ought to resolve in a pre-enforcement action.
Does SCOTUS usually leap in on a matter of statutory interpretation of State law, prior to a ruling by the State Supreme Court ?
If this were an ordinary criminal statute, a federal district court could do so. I'd be happy if a Texas state court would. But it appears under both federal and state precedent, no such pre-enforcement action is permissible. Hopefully, SCOTUS will soon permit federal courts to hear such cases.
"whether SB8 complies with Casey (I don't think it does) is a matter of statutory interpretation"
This seems to be the key trap. Congress has failed to clearly define the point at which abortions are no longer discretionary. But Texas is the bad guy.
Maybe the circus would be more palatable if the challenge weren't against the whole of the law, but rather the specifics of the gestational age.
How could Congress do that, when SCOTUS is the one who invented this "right"?
I find myself very sympathetic to the institutional concerns of what it has become clear aee now the middle three justices, Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Barrett.
The judiciary as an institution and the country as a whole is harmed if enterprising lawyers can simply manipulate existing doctrines to insulate violation of constitutional righrs from redress.
At the same time, the judiciary as an institution and the country as a whole is harmed by some of the remedies that have been proposed, letting the US sue whenever it thinks a state law is unconstitutional, suing judges for doing their jobs, etc.
Thus the court needs to thread a needle, meeting its institutional responsibility to ensure constitutional rights can be redressed, without permitting destabilizing law suits any time someone claims a constitutional grievance.
I recognize the Conspiracy, like our politics, is dominated by activists and advocates, not instutionalists. The long-term consequences for the country as a whole, indeed whether the country survives or not, is of no concern to activists and advocates. Nothing but the overwhelming importance of winning on the issue at hand by whatever means necessary ever seems to enter their mind. Indeed, institutional concerns are essentially platitudinal cannon fodder. They are brought as arguments to be made to support a win on the issue at hand when they seem to favor it. Otherwise, no attention at all is paid to them.
So ReaderY, you've had some interesting comments throughout the SB-8 saga. I have read them with interest.
What do you propose happen here?
"The judiciary as an institution and the country as a whole is harmed if enterprising lawyers can simply manipulate existing doctrines to insulate violation of constitutional righrs from redress."
I'm inclined to agree in the abstract, but exactly that has been going on in the federal courts since before WWII.
Applying such a principle to just the abortion issue would be even worse in terms of the harm to the judiciary.
If they adopt that, there is a long list of doctrines that would have to be overturned, including, but not limited to:
Qualified Immunity
Prosecutorial Immunity
The Political Question Doctrine
If they adapt what?
Adopt, not adapt, and the what is the idea that all constitutional violations must have a remedy.
The issue with political questions isn't remedy it's justiciability.
If the principle is the one you quoted, I think your answer illustrates just how polarized our discourse has become. When two principles appear to conflict, it just doesn’t occur to people to look for a compromise between the two or a way to address the higher-priority one while trampling as little as possible on the other. Instead, adapting kne principle necessarily means throwing out the other in its entirety. The higher priority principle becomes the good principle, and the other, being an obstacle to it. It becomes the bad principle, which one has to deephasize or even denigrate to demonstrate ones loyalty to the higher-priority principle. If there are two parties, one adopts the one and the other the other, just because the political system requires differences and conflict, and each denigrates and despises tbe principle it didn’t adopt.
So let me address your specific concerns.
1. Qualified immunity doesn’t apply here. The case concerns a clearly established constitutional right. Disagreement with it or speculation the Supreme Court might overturn it in the future doesn’t change this.
2. Prosecutorial Immunity doesn’t apply here. Young was the attorney general of Minnesota. Ex Parte Young held a state’s attorney general doesn’t enjoy prosecutorial immunity and can be sued in a pre-enforcement suit. If the Supreme Court extends Ex Parte Young to hold that private attorneys general can also be sued, it would not be changing existing prosecutorial ommunity. In addition, if the Court went further and held that unknown future private attorneys general can be enjoined by suing the public attorney general and agents or associates (or a similar formulation), that would not overrule existing prosecutorial immunity either.
3. Political question doctrine. I don’t think anyone has argued that the issues in this case are political questions. This case is entirely about personal constitutional rights and judicial procedures and immunities, all matters that are clearly justiciable and don’t implicate the political question doctrine in any way.
I wasn't saying those things were at issue in this case.
What I was saying is that if the court decides that all constitutional violations must have a remedy and don't limit that to just the issue of abortion those doctrines are necessarily on thin ice.
In my opinion, if the court decides that all constitutional violations must have a remedy (but only for abortion) that will be worse for the court in the long run than saying there is no remedy for SB8.
Unprincipled bullshit selling itself as the complete opposite.
If that isn't enough to protect our rights effectively, and if we need a novel cause of action to meet the novel challenge, then we might well have to look to Congress for that change, not just to the courts.
The dishonesty of this sentence is staggering.
Sachs knows Congress will filibuster and not pass this. So he knows that his position means Texas- and any other state- can create schemes to violate established constitutional rights.
This series of posts is, to me, a lot more disgusting than all the stuff Prof. Blackman posts that people don't like. Because Sachs is knowingly providing intellectual cover for people who want to scheme to prevent the courts from protecting established rights, and he WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE'S DOING IT.
"Sachs knows Congress will filibuster and not pass this."
Because there really isn't all that much democratic support for the 'right' as it exists. It was foisted on the nation by the courts, has been propped up by the courts, and if democracy were ever permitted to function again on this topic, it would, if not entirely go away, be radically reduced.
"The courts have to do this because the legislature wouldn't!" is NOT a great argument in a democracy.
"The courts have to do this because it's their job to uphold the law whether or not it's popular!" IS a great argument in a democracy with the rule of law. But abortion rights have this little problem in that regard: They're not based in the law, they were just invented by judicial fiat.
And people aren't going to forget that, or stop taking it into account, no matter how much you'd rather they did.
That said, the SB8 approach is threatening enough to real, enumerated, popular rights, that you could probably get Congress to pass something, not specific to abortion as such, but to SB8 style laws... If a substantial part of the Democratic party weren't currently thinking, "Hey, not so quick! We could use this to take people's guns away, and force our political opponents to STFU, and all sorts of things the Constitution currently gets in the way of!"
Brett, you don't understand your own party's abortion politics. EVEN THOUGH a lot of folks on your side do know that SB8 could threaten gun rights and other rights conservatives care more about than abortion rights, there's no way any Republican could vote against a filibuster of your hypothetical law, because the pro-life groups (who LOVE this strategy of chilling abortion clinics) would crucify anyone who did so in the primaries.
At any rate, I don't think votes in Congress have anything to do with this. SB8 is an injury to the courts. It is a direct threat to Article III judicial review. The courts, NOT Congress, should slap it down, hard, with a ruling that says don't EVER do this again.
I'm not going to argue that Article III judicial review isn't threatened by SB8. I've said repeatedly that I think multiple aspects of this law need to be declared unconstitutional.
I just think that it can happen as a result of normal post-enforcement litigation, it doesn't require some special pre-enforcement approach. The only reason the abortionists insist on that is that they're trying to keep a test case away from the Supreme court.
Sure, abortion will be interfered with while this is going on. When has that ever bothered the Supreme court for any other right?
And, again, you just think incorrectly.
there's no way any Republican could vote against a filibuster of your hypothetical law, because the pro-life groups (who LOVE this strategy of chilling abortion clinics) would crucify anyone who did so in the primaries.
You may be right while there are no SB8 style laws attacking 1st and 2nd Amendment rights in blue states. But if SCOTUS were to rule - it won't, but sposin' - "sorry guys there's nothing we can do about SB8 without Congressional action" - then a whole nest of SB8 style attacks on guns, and probably free speech too, would spring up all over the country within a matter of weeks.
Then I seriously doubt that the necessary Congressional action would lack the 60 votes required.
I agree that would happen. But we shouldn't need more states to violate the constitution for us to get this law invalidated.
We shouldn't need more states to violate ANY part of the Constitution to get unconstitutional laws invalidated. But that's the way it usually works.
As somebody said in one of these threads, gun owners are used to years and decades before getting their rights vindicated, if they ever are, and that's for an explicitly guaranteed right. (The 2nd amendment isn't alone in getting this treatment.) And you're whining that post-enforcement litigation might last a few months?
I see, Brett. It's the Democrats who are standing in the way of a solution.
Right.
That red voters seem fairly relaxed at present is perhaps to do with the fact that 2A rights traditionally take somewhere between fifteen years and eternity to be awarded the protection of the courts.
So the fuss about - oh, what's the number, oh there isn't one - let's say 666A rights, and a possible delay of a few months at most while a defensive test case meanders through the courts, seems a little overexcited.
Relax, put your feet up and assume the posture of the stoic. Or if you are religiously inclined, recall :
"the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
Lee,
There is a certain, shall we say deadline, to the exercise of abortion rights.
There is indeed, though perhaps not the one you were thinking of.
If an inconstitutional law prevents someone bearing arms on the evening of Saturday 27 November 2021, that is an infringement of constitutional rights that's entirely gone, lost, never to be recovered, by Sunday 28 November. Of course, the same someone can still fight in court for his rights to be protected for future exercises.
And ditto for abortion. The first three sprogs might slip out while the courts dally with their procedures, but come pregnancy number four, hey the courts might have done something.
So the abortion deadline is menopause, not childbirth.
Or as Damon Runyon said, "The race is not always to the swift nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet."
What about the odds ?
Which position is more principled?
1. Ilya argues that judicial review is supposed to protect our rights when elected officials won't.
2. Sach argues that we might well have to look to Congress ... , not just to the courts.
Apparently it would be fine with Sach if elected officials won't [protect our rights], but not with Ilya.
Everyone agrees that laws like SB8 are already subject to judicial review, first in state court and then in the Supreme Court. If that isn't enough to protect our rights effectively, and if we need a novel cause of action to meet the novel challenge, then we might well have to look to Congress for that change, not just to the courts.
But Ilya, and Kagan, refute this when, as Sachs himself points out:
...he argues that there's no need to wait for legislative action, as judicial review is supposed to protect our rights when elected officials won't. (As Justice Kagan asked, "isn't the point of a right that you don't have to ask Congress?")
IOW, what Sachs is saying is that it really is up to Congress, by creating a cause of action, to defend unpopular rights, and if they won't, too bad.
That makes no sense.
Yes, that's what Sachs is saying. And yes, it makes no sense.
Sachs says that he sees Ilya's position as perfectly coherent, albeit mistaken. But, Sachs doesn't explain why Ilya's position is mistaken.
Instead, Sachs goes on to explain why other people's arguments are bad. How this is in reply to Ilya, Sachs doesn't say.
What is going on is that Ilya's last reply washed Sachs' argument into the sewer, so Sachs had to construct a strawman. At least he was up front about using a strawman (other people's arguments).
Well said, bernard11.
Will Baude on the "too bad, so sad" principle;
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If you're a conservative judge, 9 times out of 10, when you encounter some sort of procedural doctrine that means that a lawsuit fails, you just say "too bad, so sad".
Somehow, the conservative judges are going to turn off that reaction, that they use in a normal case, and say; Well, the "too bad, so sad" principle doesn't apply here, because ... we really don't want it to.
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Baude himself seems to concede that the the "too bad, so sad" principle isn't inviolable ("9 times out of 10").
Baude also seems to suggest that this might not be a normal case, because he says that in this case, the conservative judges would turn off "too bad, so sad" principle that they almost certainly (90%) would use in a normal case.
Baude also assumes that the only possible justification that the conservative judges could have for not applying the admittedly violable "too bad, so sad" principle is, "we really don't want it to".
Maybe this case is the 1 time out of 10 that conservative judges should not apply the admittedly violable "too bad, so sad" principle, precisely because it is not a normal case.
But if Sachs and Baude and everyone else can be sure of anything at all, it is that the justification given will not be "we really don't want it to". Perhaps the justices will surprise Baude and give plausible and strong justification.
Sachs and Baude should wait to tell us how much they hate the justification until they have it, and not insert a "just because" justification as the only possible outcome.
If Sachs and Baude hate the justification, it won't be the first time that has happened. They can add it to a long list of other justifications they hate, including some by members of the current court.
I'm really struggling to follow the arguments here. Why does the SC need to strike down the Texan law? It's obvious that any citizen bringing a lawsuit under it is committing treason. Simply prosecute them for that.
(Obviously the legislation is itself treasonous, but the legislators presumably have immunity.)
I really don't care one way or the other about this case; it's simply obvious that attempting to challenge the supremacy of Federal law is treason.
...what definition of treason are you using?
Obviously not the constitutional one.
18 U.S. Code CHAPTER 115—TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
You can argue the toss about whether 'treason' is the applicable term for that entire chapter of law. But you can't argue that this isn't obviously forbidden by it. It couldn't be a clearer case of 'rebellion or insurrection against [...] the laws [of the United States]'. The intent and effect of the law in question is to reject federal legal supremacy. That is treason/rebellion/insurrection, without a shadow of a doubt.
Really, this isn't hard. Anyone who brings a case under the Texas law is indisputably guilty of the offence laid out above. They are rejecting the core principle of the United States, they are rejecting the rule of law, and they are therefore rebelling against the USA.
I suppose from the same perspective that calls overly boisterous protests "insurrection", (But only if they're by the wrong party!) enacting a law the federal government doesn't like could be called that, too.
But "treason" is the only crime whose definition is locked down by the Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. "
And, you realize, there are a lot of "sanctuary" jurisdictions your reasoning would render insurrectionist, right?
"You can argue the toss about whether 'treason' is the applicable term for that entire chapter of law."
And you apparently will, for some reason.
You're also oddly wrong.
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason"
Anyway, back to the point.
"enacting a law the federal government doesn't like"
We aren't talking about that. We're talking about a law that doesn't respect Federal supremacy. It is a direct challenge to the entire legal structure that is the United States. In other words, a direct challenge to the existence of the nation _at all_.
It's hard to think of anything more traitorous than _trying to abolish the entire country_.
"And, you realize, there are a lot of "sanctuary" jurisdictions your reasoning would render insurrectionist, right?"
No, wrong. No such thing is even vaguely true.
WAGING WARS OF WORDS AND TREASON, NOT REASON
Easy semantic fix, alas: Every disagreement over puplic policy and structural issue these days is eligible to be (mis)labeled a "war", even by academics.
Just try "voting wars" on Google Scholar. You get several hundred hits.
And in relation to the money in political campaings, of course, we speak of "war chests".
And everything that's not to the liking of feminists, which now includes sexual equality, is peddled as evidence of a "war against women" for which you can find thousands of hits on Google Scholar.
We're talking about an attempt to overthrow the rule of law in the United States, and the entire Federal system.
If your reaction to that is to debate the semantics of what precisely 'treason' means, it doesn't suggest you've kept up.
What we're discussing is a Federal crime, in the section dealing with types of what is generally referred to as 'treason'. (So, incidentally, your semantic quibbling isn't even correct.)
Why don't you try and claim overthrowing the US Federal system isn't treason, if that's your bag? I mean, obviously it is, and you're a despicable, unAmerican secessionist if you think otherwise, but at least you'd be honest about what you're defending.
WHOLESALE SCHEMING & SUPPORTING SUPREMACY
Re: "a direct challenge to the entire legal structure that is the United States"
That sounds quite familiar. Let's see ... something like going against the "whole scheme of government" perhaps?
Ah, here it is: Ex parte Young, 209 U.S. 123 (1908) ("an injunction against a state court would be a violation of the whole scheme of our government.")
And that's not all:
It is proper to add that the right to enjoin an individual, even though a state official, from commencing suits under circumstances already stated, does not include the power to restrain a court from acting in any case brought before it, either of a civil or criminal nature, nor does it include power to prevent any investigation or action by a grand jury. The latter body is part of the machinery of a criminal court, and an injunction against a state court would be a violation of the whole scheme of our Government.
If an injunction against an individual is disobeyed, and he commences proceedings before a grand jury or in a court, such disobedience is personal only, and the court or jury can proceed without incurring any penalty on that account.
The difference between the power to enjoin an individual from doing certain things, and the power to enjoin courts from proceeding in their own way to exercise jurisdiction is plain, and no power to do the latter exists because of a power to do the former.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15822732193533819720&q=%22ex+parte+young%22&hl=en&as_sdt=3,44
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Also, as a matter of popular semantics ... how come "supremacy" is all the rage all of a sudden?
Yes, ex parte Young is expressing a similar point about the rule of law. Obviously if you aim to overthrow 'the whole scheme of government', as the Texas law does, it's problematic. If your plan involves getting individuals to act, those individuals can be prosecuted and jailed accordingly.
P.S.
Re 'supremacy' - we are talking about the Supreme Court, etc. It is the correct term. The Federal government has legal supremacy; the Constitution overrides state laws. Denying that is rejecting the basis of the United States. It is a de facto attempt to unilaterally dissolve the United States.
Frankly, the EU's response to Poland's attempt to do something similar is much more what one would expect here, and they aren't even federal or a country. Those who reject the rule of law must be brought into line or expelled. Texas should face serious financial sanctions until they choose to repeal the law and recall the legislators who voted for it.
ABORTION WAR & MAYHEM VS. REASONABLE DYNAMIC RESPONSE
Before you start the next (un)Civil War or incite your fellow abortion-rights absolutists to lynch folks who identify as pro-life, let me ask this:
Have you heard of condoms and other means of contraception?
Relevance: Pregnancy is self-inflicted (in most cases) and preventable. When faced with a more restrictive legal regime, folks can respond dynamically by adjusting their sexual behavior and are free to practice better contraception (both him & her), thereby reducing the risk of unintended conception. The alleged "need" for a convenient hometown abortion as a fall-back method of birth control can thus be largely avoided ("likely" at the individual/copulating-couple level, "largely" as a statistical concept at the macro level, which is obviously appropriate in the discussion of the wisdom and workability of public policy and an assessment of consequences of new law of general applicability).
This would also have a positive economic effect on the fortunes of the prophylactics industry and reduce interstate abortion tourism (the latter bewailed by some advocates in U.S. v. Texas as undesirable under the interstate commerce clause).