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Florida Ban on Private Businesses Requiring Vaccine Verification Likely Violates the First Amendment
So a federal court concludes, in a decision about cruise lines but using reasoning that likely applies to other businesses as well.
In yesterday's Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings, Ltd. v. Rivkees, Judge Kathleen M. Williams (S.D. Fla.) issued a preliminary injunction against Florida's ban on businesses requiring proof of vaccination.
[1.] Judge Williams held that the law likely violated the First Amendment, because it was a content-based restriction on the speech that businesses can demand from customers:
Section 381.00316 is a content-based restriction because, on its face, it draws distinctions based on the message of speech. In other words, it is apparent from the text of the law that speech is regulated differently because of its subject matter and content. The Statute prohibits businesses from requiring their patrons to present "documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery" for access or services. Fla. Stat. § 381.00316(1). However, nothing in the Statute prohibits businesses from demanding documentation of a negative COVID-19 test or any other type of medical or informational documentation.
In fact, because the Statute allows businesses to institute "screening protocols" to protect public health, business entities are expressly permitted to require this type of documentation, including COVID-19 test results, other vaccine documentation, and other types of medical information. Under Section 381.00316, the only documentation businesses cannot demand is COVID-19 vaccine documentation. Accordingly, the statute is a content-based restriction because it singles out documentation regarding a particular subject matter (certification of "COVID-19 vaccination or post-infection recovery") and subjects it to restrictions (businesses may not require them for entry or services) that do not apply to documents regarding other topics.
Nor could this restriction be defended as being a facet of a general ban on discrimination against the unvaccinated, because apparently no such ban exists:
The reasoning in the case Dana's R.R. Supply v. Attorney General further illustrates why the Statute is not merely an economic regulation, but a restriction on speech. In Dana, the Eleventh Circuit considered a First Amendment challenge to Florida's "no-surcharge law," which made it a second-degree misdemeanor for merchants to impose a "surcharge" for credit card purchases, but allowed them to offer "a discount for the purpose of inducing payment by cash." At first blush, the law appeared to prohibit "dual-pricing" conduct (i.e., "charging different prices to different customers depending on whether payment is made in cash or by credit card"). However, the court noted that the law did not actually accomplish this objective because merchants could still offer discounts for cash payments, as expressly authorized by the Statute.
Instead, the court found that the law was a restriction on speech because it allowed merchants to engage in dual-pricing, as long as the cost difference was described as a "cash discount" and not a "credit card surcharge." The Eleventh Circuit explained, "[i]n order to violate the statute, a defendant must communicate the price difference to a customer and that communication must denote the relevant price difference as a credit-card surcharge," as opposed to a cash discount. As such, the court held that the law was a content-based restriction because it penalized the "wrong choice" of "equally plausible alternative descriptions of an objective reality." [The U.S. Supreme Court adopted very similar reasoning in Expressions Hair Design v. Schneiderman (2017).]
Similar to the law in Dana's R.R. Supply, at first blush, Section 381.00316 appears to prohibit businesses from requiring patrons to verify their vaccination status for entry or services. However, a review of the text shows that nothing in the statute forbids businesses from doing so. Instead, the Statute only disallows businesses from requiring customers to verify their vaccination status with "documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery." Accordingly, businesses could still require customers to provide oral verification as to whether they have received a COVID-19 vaccination….
[2.] Judge Williams also held that the statute violates the Dormant Commerce Clause as applied to cruise lines; unlike the First Amendment analysis, this part of the decision wouldn't generally apply to other kinds of business:
The dormant Commerce Clause … limits the authority of states to enact laws that indirectly affect—that substantially burden—interstate commerce…. [W]hen a state statute "regulates even-handedly to effectuate a legitimate local public interest, and its effects on interstate commerce are only incidental, it will be upheld unless the burden imposed on such commerce is clearly excessive in relation to the putative local benefits." …
[T]he Court presumes that Florida's decision to enact Section 381.00316 reflects the state's desire to safeguard its residents' rights to medical privacy and prevent "discrimination" against unvaccinated residents.
Outside of conclusory characterizations of Florida's commitment to these concepts as local purposes, Defendant fails to articulate why they are legitimate local purposes or how they weigh against any burdens that the Statute imposes on interstate commerce. Defendant's mere assertion of protecting medical privacy and preventing "discriminating" against unvaccinated persons, without more, fails to satisfy the dictates of Pike and its progeny. And … Defendant cites to no relevant authority to support his claim that these objectives constitute legitimate state interests.
Furthermore, Section 381.00316 does not actually advance the objectives of protecting "medical privacy" and "discrimination" against unvaccinated individuals in any meaningful way. Among other reasons …, Florida's failure to regulate employers, COVID-19 test results, and other medical documentation—including documentary proof-of-vaccination requirements for schoolchildren—conflicts with its purported desire to protect medical privacy. The statute also does not actually protect against the "discrimination" of unvaccinated individuals. As explained, cruise lines have adopted measures and practices that differentiate between vaccinated and unvaccinated passengers. {Additionally, there is no record evidence that Plaintiffs intend to maintain or store COVID-19 vaccination documentation for any period of time. Plaintiffs stated at oral argument that they use documentary proof of vaccination for verification purposes only and do not at all maintain, store, or transmit this type of information.}
[And] Plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits in showing that Section 381.00316 imposes substantial burdens on interstate commerce that will directly affect their abilities to operate the Norwegian Gem and other vessels. Plaintiffs contend that, because "NCLH's vessels reach international waters and sail to interstate and foreign ports, many of which require proof of vaccination to enter without testing …. [Section 381.00316] has the effect of blocking or hampering the operation of cruise lines in and out of Florida …. excessively burden[ing] the free flow of commerce between States and between Nations." … Amid myriad, rapidly-changing requirements regarding quarantining and testing, there is one constant that facilitates cruise line customers' access to advertised ports of call: documentary proof of vaccination will expedite passengers' entry into virtually every single country and port where Plaintiffs intend to sail….
Section 381.00316 presents an impediment to commerce analogous to an Illinois law that required trucks to use curved mudguards. See Bibb v. Navajo Freight Lines, Inc., 359 U.S. 520 (1959). In Bibb, the Supreme Court held that an Illinois law unconstitutionally burdened interstate commerce in part because trucks traveling through Illinois from other states could not reasonably comply with the state's law requiring curved mudguards when Arkansas required, and nearly every other state permitted, trucks to use straight mudguards. The Supreme Court stated that "[a] State which insists on a design out of line with the requirements of almost all the other States may sometimes place a great burden of delay and inconvenience on those interstate motor carriers entering or crossing its territory." And while such a design "may be so compelling that the innovating State need not be the one to give way," the Supreme Court determined that Illinois had not met that showing when balanced against "the clear burden on commerce." … If Plaintiffs abandon their plan to require all passengers to present documentary proof of vaccination (see DE 3-1, at ¶¶ 13–15), and passengers must instead be subjected to an array of diverse quarantining and testing requirements, it will impede the ability of Plaintiffs to manage the business of vessels at foreign and interstate ports and lead to incalculable and unpredictable delays in travel….
[3.] Judge Williams didn't decide whether the state law is preempted by federal safety regulations, because the other arguments were sufficient to justify the preliminary injunction against the law. But the court stated that "Plaintiffs have raised compelling arguments" supporting such preemption," which "[t]he Court will address these arguments at a later stage of the proceeding."
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Much as I favor overturning Florida's nutcase law, I don't like doing it on 1A grounds when it ought to be done instead on emergency powers grounds.
Seems like we see more and more resort by courts to the notion of content based speech restrictions to create leverage to get to substantive outcomes which are not really about speech. It's convenient, because no matter what you do, some kind of expressive activity is likely involved, and with each different kind of thing you want to do, the content changes. That can be used to make it look like every legal question is resolvable by invoking content restrictions on speech as a basis for a ruling. That seems unwise.
If a court is going to invoke 1A speech protection, the principal issue ought to be a speech issue, and not something else. In the cruise line case it is something else—the power of a private company to use emergency measures to keep its workers, customers, and profits safe from contagion.
Some speech seems more protected than other speech.
I keep thinking about Massachusetts' gay rights law and how Massachusetts apparently has the right to prohibit private companies from making similar inquiries regarding sexual orientation.
Oh yes. By this ruling the government cannot prohibit a business from requiring a customer to declare his sexual orientation! How idiotic.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw_wTvj2R8-3LzC22szKM4Q
Strawman Kudos.
Whose emergency powers? Cruise lines and other businesses do not have emergency powers.
Now give me your thoughts on baking a certain kind of cake you wish not to bake?
I wish I could upvote this somehow.
The discussion in second paragraph really bears emphasis. It can't be underscored enough that the 1A-based approach has absolutely no limiting principle whatsoever. As you mentioned, since the advent of language, any undertaking carried on by two or more people almost necessarily involves the use of verbal and/or written communication. So, following that approach, if all that communication is "speech" protected by 1A, then essentially nothing in the entirety of human activity could be meaningfully regulated. I agree it's unwise, but that also seems like a massive understatement. It would lead to societal collapse and utter anarchy. Some folks around here I'm sure would consider that less a bug than a feature.
The one area I have to nitpick on is about emergency powers. Like MikeFr, I don't see how that can work. And it doesn't have to either. The court, as discussed in the OP, also based its decision on an alternate grounds, DCC. Such a basis might not always be available in every case, but at least here, it seemed to do the trick nicely and more appropriately than 1A.
A better 1A argument is that demanding customers show a vaccine card violates their right to free speech.
By similar logic, would it also be a 1A violation to prohibit businesses from demanding that customers recite loyalty oaths?
Commercial speech gets 1A protections or not entirely dependent on leftists' whimsical preferences.
Uh, that's not commercial speech.
Why not? The process of boarding passengers, including what declarations are mandatory during that prices, is integral to the core business of these cruise lines.
But it's the consumer who is speaking by answering the questions, not the cruise line.
Yes, that's why it is mystifying that the First Amendment argument supposedly governs what the cruise line can demand.
And the customer has a right NOT to speak without penalty also.
From the opinion: COVID-19 vaccination documentation does not fit the definition of commercial speech and does not relate “solely” to an economic interest. NCLH submitted evidence showing that it had non-economic justifications for requiring the documentation,
including to prevent a COVID-19 outbreak aboard its ships and the communities where it travels. (DE 3-1 at ¶¶ 14, 27; DE 3-4 at ¶ 16.) In addition, unlike advertising or marketing, these documents do not propose a commercial transaction. Consequently, the Court is skeptical that Section 381.00316 regulates only commercial speech.
Loyalty oaths would presumably be even less economic in focus.
The court doesn't say the speech here is non-economic it says it is *more* than that (and therefore deserves more protection).
If called on the constitutionality of his ban, De Santis can just cite President Biden.
De Santis obviously needs better lawyers.
Is this really legal analysis?
Among other reasons …, Florida's failure to regulate employers, COVID-19 test results, and other medical documentation—including documentary proof-of-vaccination requirements for schoolchildren—conflicts with its purported desire to protect medical privacy
Judges can overturn a law because other laws don’t exist (yet)? The judge seems to think he’s trying to win a debate instead of applying genuine legal analysis.
The argument is that Florida's lack of regulation regarding protecting medical privacy in other areas undercuts that given justification here.
So the state must do either 0% or 100% of a thing, with no ability to prioritize or draw lines between those extremes?
From the opinion: Defendant has also failed to show that Section 381.00316 advances these objectives in a material way. In evaluating a statute’s effectiveness in advancing the state’s interest, a “commercial speech regulation ‘may not be sustained if
it provides only ineffective or remote support for the government’s purpose....Defendant provides no evidence to show that the Statute is materially effective at either protecting the medical privacy of Florida residents...Section 381.00316 does not effectively protect the medical privacy of
residents. The law is far too underinclusive to meaningfully advance this goal.
In other words, what I said, except the judge gets to use his sole judgment for what counts as 100%. The legislature has no discretion in the face of judge-created law.
You misunderstand. The law the judge is enforcing is not one she wrote, it's the First Amendment, which says the government shall make *no* law abridging freedom of speech. Now, virtually all jurists don't take that literally (otherwise telling the Russians who our spies are couldn't be prohibited), so the courts have tests about under what circumstances prohibitions on speech will be allowed. With commercial speech the test has to do in part with is there an important government reason (a serious problem) and is the measure materially effective in combatting the problem. The fact that this law is so underinclusive re the proffered problem (discrimination and medical privacy) prevents the law from passing this part of the test.
It’s a nonsense argument. You could just as well argue that Congress’ failure to protect employers’ sexual preference completely undermines its claim to protect sexual preference in domestic partners. The fact that it’s doesn’t protect business’ right to select employees based on sex completely undermines its claim to be actually interested in protecting sexual preference as such.
Or one could strike down seatbelt laws because side airbags and ABS aren’t mandated, thereby indermining government’s claim to beinterested in safety. Or speed limits because cars aren’t banned entirely. If government were actually interested in safety, it would ban the things outright and not just limit their speed.
One can always, for any law, come up with some more general category and then find that because the state didn’t cover the entire category, it’s claim to have any interest in the subject at all is bogus..
Why not strike down the entire federal government? If the framers were serious about the federal government havingn power, they would have given it unlimited powers. The fact that the powers cover only enumerated subjects is proof positive that the Framers didn’t have any real interest in giving the government any powers at all, and their calim to have had an interest in doing so was purely pretextual.
"You could just as well argue that Congress’ failure to protect employers’ sexual preference completely undermines its claim to protect sexual preference in domestic partners."
Again, you're not understanding this as a part of an overall test of when speech rights can be abridged. You might want to read Sorrel, the SCOTUS case this opinion relied so heavily on, and then re-read this opinion in its entirety.
Here's an perhaps apt analogy that might illustrate this:
Imagine a law that says a business can't require customers provide documentation as to whether they wear contacts or glasses. The justification for the law is the same as here, they don't want people who have (or don't have) corrected vision to be discriminated against and they want to protect their medical privacy. But, employers are free to require employees (and prospective employees) give the documentation. And businesses can *orally* ask you if you have corrected vision (and then document your answer themselves). And they are allowed to ask you for all kinds of other eyesight-problem related documentations (whether you have eye diseases, injuries, etc.,). And they are allowed to require eyesight tests (and can document how the person did on the test).
In this case the combatting of the justifications given would be so ineffective that the court think no justification for not following the 'make no law' language could be warranted.
You are describing an almost textbook ADA violation.
That's what I wanted to see. There are protections against businesses getting medical info on people without permission.
I disagree based on precedent.
A state *can* (and many do) prohibit private companies from inquiring as to marital status -- imagine a cruise company demanding to see a copy of marriage licenses before permitting a heterosexual couple to share a stateroom.
A state *can* (and many do) prohibit private companies from inquiring as to sexual orientation as well. Or if one has a prior criminal conviction, or children, or has had an abortion.
If a state can do all of that, how is this speech any different?
Well, for a start, there are actually laws that prohibit discrimination based on marital status and sexual orientation.
But think of those poor unvaccinated idiots. Who is gonna protect them from these big ole meanies not wanting their entire cruise ship infected?
So what? laws prohibiting discrimination don't trump 1st Amendment rights. If the business's ask is protected by the 1st Amendment, having a non-discrimination law doesn't change that.
Except that is the opposite of reality. The purpose of antidiscrimination laws is specifically to trump a business's 1A rights
No, it's not. Antidiscrimination laws are based on the theory that there is no First Amendment association right to discriminate, not that the antidiscrimination laws constitutionally trump First Amendment rights that do exist.
Here, the judge is declaring that such a right exists with respect to asking about vaccines.
Except the act of discrimination, for legal purposes, is defined by the relevant antidiscrimination law. So the lack of a 1A right to discriminate, is in fact little more than the lack of a 1A right to violate antidiscrimination laws
It might be speech integral to illegal conduct.
Who owns the port facilities?
In many states, a state entity owns (and often operates) the port and this is because of public funding that went to preserve and upgrade port facilities over the years.
Hence if Florida owns the port facilities that the ships are docking at, couldn't it say that ships which dock at ITS facilities can't do this?
They are free to go dock in Georgia if they wish...
Stop beclowning yourself, Ed.
It's totally cool when you don't know something to not know it.
Making stuff up isn't required.
Politicians go into power for graft. Kicking pure fluff profit centers to other states goes against this.
loki,
he cannot help it.
So this is an interesting decision- I think that (w/r/t Cruise Ships) there are other grounds, but this seems sound at first.
Based on controlling 11th Circuit precedent, a state cannot mandate that there is a difference in the way things are communicated based on the state's preferences, and label that as a regulation. This is the cash/credit card decision referenced (Dana). Here, the allowance for screening, and allowance for businesses to continue to refuse to allow non-vaccinated individuals on their premises, but a specific content-based requirement that they not use Covid-19 vaccination documents (or those showing recovery) is the issue.
So, sure? Obviously, there's the whole "expression" issue (inherently expressive conduct) but I'm reasonably sure that cruise ship sailed long ago.
But the surcharge case law violates the First Amendment because it regulates *how* the business conveys their otherwise lawful act. Nothing in the Florida law bars the manner in which the cruise line can describe their vaccine policies, only the material they may demand from their customers as proof. Analogizing it to the credit card surcharge cases, it would be like the court saying it’s a violation of the First Amendment to outlaw surcharges for credit cards because they discriminate against non-credit card users. That’s not where the first amendment violation is
I think the Court does a good job of explaining why it falls squarely within the gambit considering current caselaw.
If you think that the Court is wrong, and that these types of cases (including cases such as Sorrell) are wrong, that's fine!
But it's not like Courts have been reticent about treating these types of regulations as First Amendment issues.
I don’t think the court does a good job at it at all—as my response indicates, the credit card cases bear almost no resemblance to the situation here.
That's great! That's your opinion, dude.
If you are on the 11th Circuit, and you have one other friend on the 11th Circuit, and you're assigned to the appeal, then you can do something about it.
So this is what passes for reasoned discussion. Got it.
Look, I will try one more time nicely-
The above is just a single reference. Since you've read the whole case, you know that the opinion turns on a lot of cases- some of them of general applicability (SCOTUS), some of them more narrow (11th COA). The use of certain cases are not dispositive, but informative, and saying that you don't think a single case is exactly like the one at issue isn't ... well, it isn't that interesting.
I would happily join you, as I allude to repeatedly, in the general idea that courts seem to view the First Amendment as their hammer, and every problem as a nail. I tend to view the expansion of FA jurisprudence in many areas skeptically- but there is ample precedent (and it has been cited) that this type of regulation falls within the ambit.
Moreover, it is (to me) more convincing than the dormant commerce clause- which is a second and independent reason the Court found for the preliminary injunction; both of these were independent of any finding preemption; which, given that preemption was practically invented in the context of ships and the plethora of cases on the issue, is likely a further issue specific to cruise ships.
All that said, I don't think there will be a very productive discussion about whether this case is exactly like Dana, because that's not why the Court used it. In addition, a lengthy legal discussion on this is kind of useless, given the procedural posture and the likelihood that we have an 11th Circuit decision relatively quickly.
Finally, while I have not seen the operative motions, the references from the Court make it appear that the State did not defend certain positions as well as it should have.
It's interesting just how much Trumpistas like Ben, Ed, etc., *need* this. They just don't want people to behave in ways that take Covid seriously or in a different way than they would to do so. But in a free country people get to think and behave differently than you do.
In a "free" country, cruise ships could ban gay men because "everyone" knows that they are going to molest the teenaged boys on the cruise.
"Science" once held that to be true, much like "science" today alleges something else...
Are you cynically using culture war issues to denigrate science, or are you actually that ignorant about how science works?
Next up: Dr. Ed suggests there might be 4 elements (earth, air, fire, water) because “science changed its mind” when Medeleev proposed the periodic table.
It is a fact that the DSM I and DSM II explicitly defined "homosexuality" as a "mental illness."
It's a fact. You can go look it up.
There you go, stuck back 50 years ago.
Try the current version of DSM.
I think Dr. Ed's point might be that 50 years in the future, a lot of the people barking "Science Full Stop" today are going to look about as bad as the old DSM.
In 50 years when people aren't politically vested in the issue, historians will sort out who was lying and who was telling the truth. It won't be 100% on one side.
Ed,
Give it a break. How do you come up with such nonsense.
Ed, was that about the same time the Sun used to revolve around the Earth?
I don’t think it’s a sign of strength in the argument that the judge had to reason backwards to get to his conclusion that this law regulates speech. Shouldn’t he have decided this was a regulation of speech *before* deciding it was not content neutral?
There is a whole opinion that is linked.
The issue (w/r/t the FA) was whether this was a regulation of speech; that is the primary point of analysis. Only after that does the Court go into the full intermediate scrutiny analysis (commercial speech, Central Hudson).
TLDR- the actual opinion is not just the excerpts.
Finally, I hope everyone remembers that this is just the preliminary injunction order, not the final opinion after a trial.
I did read the whole decision. But I don’t think you understand my point. The content neutral analysis only applies to laws that burden freedom of speech. If the regulation does not involve speech, then content neutrality is immaterial. The court should have first determined this was a speech violation, then found it was not content neutral. It could not do so without presupposing a message-based reason for the law, I.e, that is singles out COVID vaccinations. But laws that embrace a particular subject are so common that standard would turn every regulation into speech violation. Is it a content violation to require ID to buy alcohol but not gum? Is it a content violation to ban discrimination on HIV status but not toenail fungal status?
"But I don’t think you understand my point. "
I completely understood your point. I just read the whole opinion, and ... based on the current caselaw in that circuit, I disagreed with you.
The Court goes through the full analysis, and does so correctly. If you want to disagree, that's fine. But the Court doesn't do what you claim.
Nathan, you are right that both the "it's speech" and "it's content-based" boxes have to be ticked. The opinion did both, and though you might be more comfortable if the court addressed them in your preferred order, there is no logical reason they can't establish A and B by showing B first.
VoR-
Slight quibble. The "content-based" box does not, in fact, have to be checked.
Content-neutral laws that regulate speech have their own test- usually shorthanded to the TPM (time, place, manner) test. We used to use Ward v. Rock Against Racism as the go-to; not sure what the standard citation is now.
I like the outcome of the court case, but how is this policy related to the 1st amendment? I don't see how a medical decision relates to it. If this law violates the first amendment, it would seem like any law could violate the first amendment.
I am very dubious about first amendment grounds here. After all, bans on asking questions to prospective employees about their membership in protected categories has long been upheld. I don’t see this as different.
Florida may be foolish to seek to protect non-vaccinated people. But if government generally speaking has a compelling interest in enabling people to participate in commerce that overrides the first amendment, as has been held recently, I wouldn’t see why that wouldn’t apply here. And speech in commercial settings has traditionally been considered less protected.
Let’s be clear. Suppose a state had a law prohibiting asking prospective customers’ sexual orientation. Would that violate the First Anendment?
I don’t see why the two would be analyzed differently. Here Florida has reasonably determined that unvaccinated people are persecuted and subjected to animosity, and therefore deserve protection to prevent discriminatory efforts to keep them out of the flow if commerce. I might disagree with that determination. But it certainly has a rational basis.
It’s a discrimination law like every other siscrimination law. It shouldn’t be treated any differently.
If the court really has “emergency powers” to simply overide normal law when it feels really strongly, the normal rule of law be damned, then perhaps Donald Trump was right to be disappointed that they didn’t use their powers to make him President for a second term.
"I am very dubious about first amendment grounds here. After all, bans on asking questions to prospective employees about their membership in protected categories has long been upheld. I don’t see this as different."
Really? There are bans about that? I honestly didn't know that. Can you provide a citation?
What I do know is that companies don't ask about protected status, because if you do, then that can become prima facie evidence of the discrimination. So if your job interviewer keeps asking about your sexual orientation, and you don't get a job, then not only does the applicant think that's the cause (increasing the chance of a lawsuit) but that's evidence for the lawsuit.
Yes. Look at the "ban the box" laws that many leftist jurisdictions have enacted.
This handy guide distinguishes legal feom illegal question.
If asking about vaccination status violates the First Amendment, then the prohibitions on every one of the currently illegal questions does so as well.
State additions to the list that others might think misguided are hardly new. In Califiornia, for example, an employer can’t ask applicants what school they went to; it’s illegal to discriminate based on perceived qualitu of school. Some states ban asking anout former convictions.
And they’re entitled to enact these things if they want, however unwise, impoliic, or downright foolish others may think it. Justt as Florida is entitled to enact this law (so far as the First Amendment is concerned.)
https://www.une.edu/sites/default/files/legal_interview_questions.pdf
I think you just missed the point, Reader.
Instead of looking to online lists, I would ask that you look to what I wrote, and then get back to me.
🙂
No; that handy guide is some random person on the Internet's personal beliefs about what questions are legal. It's incredibly stupid to ask many of those questions because they aren't job relevant, and so if you don't hire someone it gives them ammunition to argue that the reason was based on their answer to those questions.
I guess some state could have passed a law making those questions illegal, but contrary to your link federal law does not. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only thing federal employment law bans is requests for genetic information (GINA). Some cities or states have passed laws making certain questions for information illegal — as someone noted above, ban the box laws.
The distinction between a law banning those questions and Florida's law here, is that the former laws are designed to prevent employers from ferreting out information to be used for an illegal purpose (employment discrimination). Speech in furtherance of an illegal act. However — and as I pointed out two weeks ago when this topic arose here — that's not the function of Florida's law. Florida law does not ban cruise lines (businesses) from discriminating on the basis of vaccination status. It only bans businesses from asking for documentation of it. If Florida law actually banned such discrimination, it would have a stronger foundation for this law.
See: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/massachusetts-law-about-hiring-employees
Ed,
what is you point here? We know that you may not ask about protected status and probably you are foolish to ask about anything that can be interpreted as asking about protected status.
You may ask if an applicant can fulfill a requirement in the position description. So if the job requires working outside of 9 to 5, you can state that fact and ask the applicant if s/he is okay with that.
One more thing Ed.
If you operate an airline that flies pilgrim trips into Mecca and are looking for a pilot, you may ask a pilot if s/he is okay with the issue that a non-Muslim setting foot in Mecca is punishable by death.
Perhaps asking about sexual orientation doesn't violate the First Amendment because such a question would be speech integral to illegal conduct (which I think was loki's point about such a question being used as evidence of illegal discrimination).
This delicious is nonsense, but I also thought the 11th Circuit decision that a doctor has a 1st Amendment right to ask his patients about guns in the home was nonsense too.
Anyway, this is a typical Obongo judge making a ruling in bad faith.
If a business put up a sign that said "I hate niggers," would she be quick to say that the businesses have a 1st Amendment right to do so, and that any hostile work environment claim had to fail on that basis?
Except that asking about vaccination status does go directly to the core function of the business, which is providing customers with a safe trip. I'm having trouble imagining any business in which hating on racial minorities would be a core function of the business.
Isn’t providing customers a pleasant trip the real core business of a pleasure cruise? It could be argued that people who make customers feel uncomfortable interfere with its core business just as much as people who make customers feel unsafe. And of course a conservative Christian business sees its core mission as serving Christ. Why business does the State, or for that matter you, have telling people what their core mission or purpose in life is?
Discrimination law has long held that the state’s interest in ensuring disadvantaged minorities have access to the intstrumentalities of interstate commerce simply outweighs whatever businesses may think their core mission to be, and this only even comes into question if the discrimination law interferes with one of the business’ express constitutional rights.
In any event, the “core business” argument is not a First Amendment argument. It has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
As I’ve said before, I personally think this a foolish law. Discrimination laws are not always wise. But nonetheless, they are generally constitutional except in unusual circumstances where they come up against specific constitutional claims.
It’s been well established that laws prohibiting public-accommodations businesses from asking prospective employers or customers questions about their religious habits, marital status, sexual habits, and a long list of other things that varies from state to state. It may be foolish for Florida to add this item to the list. But it’s within its rights.
" I’m having trouble imagining any business in which hating on racial minorities would be a core function of the business. "
Imagine this.
Or <a href="https://www.aflegal.org/"<this.
Or this.
If you looked at the homicide statistics per capita based on race, one using your logic could justify a "White only" cruise on the same basis of providing customers a safe trip.
I'd consider doing so reprehensible, but Black males are statistically *way* more likely to murder someone than a White Blonde female.
And what you somehow are missing is the larger issue involved in all of this stuff.
Ed,
You do have a masterful way of contorting every issue into pure nonsense
So to be more specific-
1. This is an order on a preliminary injunction. That gives you a pretty good indication of what the Court is thinking, but it's not a full merit's decision yet.
2. Because it's an order granting a preliminary injunction, the State of Florida will be able to appeal this Order to the 11th- expect a decision relatively quickly. So I wouldn't get all worked up one way or the other.
3. The dormant commerce clause is the most interesting part of this and, TBH, the least persuasive (to me).
4. I think the best argument for cruise ships is probably preemption, but that was not reached.
5. I don't necessarily agree with this expansion of the First Amendment jurisprudence; it is similar to Sorrell; but it seems to fit with the 11th Circuit jurisprudence- both Dana and Wollschleger (that's the case that struck down the ability of medical professional to ask patients about firearms ownership) seem to allow it. At a certain point, however, I am reminded of Dallas (490 US at 25)-
"It is possible to find some kernel of expression in almost every activity a person undertakes — for example, walking down the street or meeting one's friends at a shopping mall — but such a kernel is not sufficient to bring the activity within the protection of the First Amendment."
I think Florida’s best argument against pre-emption, although not a slam dunk, is Bob-Lo Island Excursion Co. v. Michigan, which held that Michigan’s discrimination law wasn’t preempted as applied to a trip to Bob-Lo Island in Canada. It’s not a slam dunk, bit it’s at least plausibly arguable that a cruise that returns to the same dock is more like a pleasure round trip from Detroit to Boblo Island than it is like ordinary international travel.
Eh, these cruises go to multiple international ports, and the passengers disembark at them. In addition, the cruise ships themselves re-locate to different ports at different seasons, and a failure to abide by the proper protocol means that they can't be used at the new port with the same crew.
Which is why if the case went on, I think preemption would be a winning argument for the cruise ships.
Boblo Island was owned (except for a fenced-off area where a lighthouse stood) by the American company that ran the day excursion for American customers who were isolated and alone on the island and did not mix with Canadians. That was why the Court (perhaps wrongly) decided it was international in name only and Michigan law was not pre-empted, not merely because they returned to the same dock. Norwegian however docks at various foreign ports and doesn't have that kind of control over any of them.
I'd love to see Florida respond with its *taxation* authority -- to impose an incredibly onerous tax and use the proceeds to help Florida residents who have lost their vaccination paperwork.
If they did this right, they could both make it *very* expensive and make it *very* hard to prove that it was pretexual -- after all, a MD required to duplicate vaccination paperwork is entitled to be compensated for him/her/its time, etc....
The problem is that only the left thinks this way....
My initial reaction is the judge got the First Amendment issue wrong.
Sorrell held that marketing is speech and thus banning information only used in marketing violated the First Amendment. In contrast, banning one type of documentation (COVID vaccine) but not banning others (tetanus vaccine) does not involve how the information is used.
Dana held that you couldn't ban a surcharge on credit cards when you allowed a cash discount that gave very close to the same result you wanted to outlaw. In contrast, allowing an oral verification does not result in close to the same result that you are attempting to outlaw with the documentation ban (an oral verification has close to no effect because people will lie knowing they can't get caught).
But assuming I am wrong on either of the above, does this ruling imply a government mandate to inspect COVID vaccine documentation is impermissible compelled speech? That strikes me as a strange result.
I understand the reference, but Florida's law is much closer to a pure speech issue than the ordinance in question there, which was (at best) an expressive conduct/expressive association one. So "at a certain point," sure — but I don't think this is at that point.
I tend to agree- that's why I wrote that it seems to comport with precedent, especially in the Eleventh ...
but I would also not be surprised if the panel doesn't agree w/r/t the preliminary injunction.
(Just as an aside, I think I'm just annoyed that while the First Amendment is the lodestar of our constitutional jurisprudence, it has now eaten everything else. It's is what people pretend HIPAA and RICO are.)
How about making it an anti-discrimination provision? You can ask but not act on it, un- vaccinated can not be denied access to the cruise or any activities on the cruise.
Vaccine status discrimination.
The opinion addresses the anti-discrimination justification (it finds the law is far too underinclusive to stand on that ground: " In sum, if combatting discrimination were the goal, merely banning the
exchange of COVID-19 vaccination documentation is an ineffective way to accomplish this objective because the Statute does not directly prohibit the treating of unvaccinated persons or those who decline to verify their vaccination status by businesses and employers differently").
Seems that a statute that "directly prohibits the treating of unvaccinated persons or those who decline to verify their vaccination status by businesses and employers differently" would be ok then, as I suggested.
It would be an uncommonly silly law but probably on firmer constitutional grounds I guess.
It would be not only uncommonly silly, but uncommonly evil. But, yes, probably has a much better shot at surviving a 1A analysis.
"Vaccine status discrimination."
Bob,
"Vaccine status" does not define a protected class.
So if this law fails on speech grounds, wouldn't that mean the CDC regulations on cruise ships also fail, as they are basically compelled speech?
In what way do the CDC regulations bar a particular exchange of information? Because that's what the court here seems to take issue with.
Also, when are you going to be done with Clerks III?
If the FL is unconstitutional because voluntarily exchanging the information is protected under the 1A, then the CDC mandate is also unconstitutional by compelling that same exchange of information, because the 1A also bars compelled speech, even (if not especially) in cases where the speech would be protected if voluntary
So your argument would be that a CDC regulation requiring vaccination documents be shared would be compelled commercial speech (or non-commercial)? OK, but then you still have to do the four-part test. The CDC's interest would be different than DeSantis' (public health vs. anti-discrimination and privacy protection) and I doubt their regulations would suffer the same underinclusivity issues...
In addition to that point, cruise lines would almost certainly demand such information even if the CDC didn't require it, so the 1A would be unlikely to come into play.
Also, the CDC would be unlikely to require mere disclosure rather than actually requiring health measures be taken.
The freedom to speak is the exact same as the freedom to not speak. If compelling it one way is a violation, then compelling it the other way is the exact same violation.
There is no way to avoid this conclusion. Otherwise, the restriction is political-stance-based, and the first amendment explicitly bans that.
Free speech and the free market prevail over government regulations.
What a wonderful conservative/libertarian victory!
"government regulations"
The CDC issued a government regulation that the cruise line wants to follow.
So yeah, victory!
I believe a separate lawsuit has already reduced those regulations to voluntary guidelines
So win-win
" government regulation that the cruise line wants to follow."
Isn't a 'regulation' that a business wants to follow more of a recommendation?
Lying to a private entity is not a criminal offense, nor is -- outside of the entity acting as an agent of the state -- is presenting forged documents. It's civil fraud, but that would be too hard to prosecute...
You're playing lawyer again, Dr. Ed. Lying to a private entity is also criminal fraud (assuming it satisfies the other requirements, such as reliance and damages).
Actually the CDC issue guidance that the cruise line has decided to follow
Would the same ruling apply to an analogous law that substituted HIV for COVID?
I hate the Florida law, but this is dumb. Every single interaction in the world is an exchange of information. Doesnt mean speech covers it.
And DeSantis is such doing a bang-up job handling the pandemic......
If the ban on vaccine passports violates the first amendment, then the government mandate of vaccine passports must also violate the first amendment by the logic given. After all, the freedom to speak is the same as the freedom to not speak.
The only reason that the former was enacted was the CDC's mandate of vaccine passports for cruise ships and coercive support of mandates of it for other situations. The judge appears to be willfully ignoring this fact and the explicit rationale that was given for passing the law.
Two things- the usual mistake partisans make is that they start by assuming the conclusion they want, and then work from there. Try not to do that, as it will make you a better and more well-rounded person.
Now, the other thing. Try not to believe in what politicians or the media characterize something as; instead, look at the actual language. This isn't a "ban on vaccine passports," and (conversely) there isn't a "mandate on vaccine passports." Let's get a little more specific as to what is going on:
Businesses in Florida are allowed, for quite obvious reasons, to take safety precautions when it comes to COVID. For example, a private business can request that any patron orally verify that they are vaccinated. A private business can request that any patron orally verify that they have had post-exposure COVID recovery. This is all still allowed. All the law does is prevent private businesses from requesting patrons verify their vaccination or post-exposure COVID recover with anything more than an oral assurance.
And this only applies to customers- not to employees.
In addition, the issue with the CDC is more complicated as well, because it's not a mandate. First, there was a simulated voyage requirement to the no sail order; then, at the request (and with feedback from the cruise ship industry), there was an alternate "attestation" method provided. Notably (and given the caselaw in the circuit currently), these are non-binding guidelines.
Yet the cruise ships are following these non-binding guidelines. Why? Well, do you remember how this whole COVID thing started? Do you think it might just be possible that if there was any single business that might want to go above and beyond when it comes to COVID safety, it might be the cruise ship industry? Do you think that the cruise ship industry will be able to take the press of another outbreak on their ships? Do you think it makes sense as to why cruise ships might really, really want to make sure that (for the time being at least) they go above and beyond in terms of safety protocols, and that a government mandate that requires that they ask passengers about their vaccination status in a manner that only conforms to the government's desires (and not to their business needs) might be ... unwise?
Anyway, we will see what happens with the panel (11th Cir.) when they get this.
All the law does is prevent private businesses from requesting patrons verify their vaccination or post-exposure COVID recover with anything more than an oral assurance.
If the law supposes a power to say oral assurance can substitute for documentation where motivation to lie is manifest, then the law is claiming a literally fantastic power.
All your marketing, advertising and other efforts to attract customers https://mediaonemarketing.com.sg/search-engine-marketing-google-ads-ppc-singapore/ should be purposefully conducted with the target audience you have designated. This will increase the effectiveness of marketing at times, and helps to attract more customers.
Doesn't seem like a speech case. This is like saying that when you show your ID to buy alcohol tobacco or lottery tickets, that is "speech." Fairly absurd.
This an excellent example of an argument that proves too much.
As Ben of Houston pointed out, the First Amendment protects against speech compulsion as well as speech prohibition. Now you've decided that the vaccine question is protected speech, and furthermore protected even in the commercial context. It follows that *not* asking is also protected.
If this ruling becomes final and sticks, and OSHA imposes a mandate on employers, you can expect some employers to cite this one and assert a First Amendment right not to ask their employees.