Why Did Scientists Suppress the Lab Leak Theory?
Join Reason on YouTube and Facebook Thursday at 1:30 p.m. Eastern for a discussion with Matt Ridley of new documents that reveal how and why scientists downplayed the possibility of a COVID lab leak scenario.
A widely cited paper dismissing the COVID lab leak theory "expressed conclusions that were not based on sound science or in fact," wrote the authors of a recent House of Representatives committee report entitled "The Proximal Origin of a Cover-Up."
"The question is why," ask the authors.
For a deep exploration of that question and the wider implications of its possible answers, join Reason's Nick Gillespie and Zach Weissmueller on Reason's YouTube channel or Facebook page, where they'll discuss the lab leak theory with Matt Ridley, science writer and co-author of Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19, this Thursday at 1:30 pm ET.
Sources cited in this interview:
YouGov: Two-thirds of Americans believe COVID-19 originated in a lab: https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/03/10/americans-believe-covid-origin-lab
Early February 1 draft of Proximal Origin paper: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11zyWYG1OZ7z7RMZHaj2EoDeHveGnendT/view
House Oversight Committee evidence: https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023.03.05-SSCP-Memo-Re.-New-Evidence.Proximal-Origin.pdf
Nature: "Proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2": https://www.nature.com/articles/S41591-020-0820-9
Kristian Andersen's written statement to Congress: https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Testimony-of-Dr.-Kristian-Andersen.pdf
Redacted vs. unredacted Fauci email: https://twitter.com/justin_hart/status/1679705254462631937/photo/1
Wall Street Journal: U.S.-funded scientist among three researchers who fell ill amid early COVID-19 outbreak: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-funded-scientist-among-three-chinese-researchers-who-fell-ill-amid-early-covid-19-outbreak-3f919567
Unredacted Fauci email: https://twitter.com/COVIDSelect/status/1679606442414809090?s=20
House Oversight Committee report on Proximal Origin paper: https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Final-Report-6.pdf
Shi/Baric paper on gain-of-function research: https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985
Shi group created 8 chimeric SARS CoVs in 2017: https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1006698
RFK Jr. on bioweapons: https://twitter.com/LevineJonathan/status/1680205451483283456?t=CFNd8mp9HzgQPeF7jR8F_g&s=31
RFK Jr. response to New York Post reporting: https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1680227322509635595?s=20
BMC Medicine: The genetic susceptibility of populations to COVID-19 https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-020-01673-z
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I'm just going to leave this here:
In 1940, Lysenko became director of the Institute of Genetics within the USSR's Academy of Sciences, and he used his political influence and power to suppress dissenting opinions and discredit, marginalize, and imprison his critics, elevating his anti-Mendelian theories to state-sanctioned doctrine.
You think Fauci likes to dress up as Lysenko and jerk off?
Close. I think Fauci's a jerkoff who acts like Lysenko.
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150 responses and not a single french fried bat recipe !
The Berkley Daily Gazette had an article on people who eat bats in one of the May 1931 issues on Google News Archives.
French fried bats were on offer in The New Hebrides in 1975, but I declined — poor things looked like quail wearing badly singed King Kong suits.
Did you keep that issue after you bought it new off the newsstand?
Who is Godwin's Stalin-loving cousin?
Found the person still supporting Lysenko.
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Being wrong isn’t a sin, JFree.
Defending a lie is though.
I don't know why they lied, but I know their intent was good. Also, they only lied about covid origins and nothing else. - Jfree.
Whats hilarious is that even in the last week the NYT admitted, buried in a story, that covid deaths were over counted by up to 30%
You can’t cite an alt-right publication like that!
Gosh, does Jeffy know.
https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.html
When experts or agencies deliver information to the public that they consider possibly or definitively false to further a larger, often well-meaning agenda, they are telling what is called a noble lie. Although the teller’s intentions may be pure—for example, a feeling of urgency that behavioral change is needed among the lay public—the consequences can undermine not only those intentions but also public trust in experts and science. During the first year of COVID-19, leaders were faced with an unknown disease amid a politically sensitive election in the era of social media, and the preconditions for noble lies became especially fertile. Not surprisingly, we witnessed several examples. More than anything, these examples illustrate the destructive potential of such lies.
Noble lies—small untruths—yield unpredictable outcomes. Nietzsche once wrote, “Not that you lied to me, but that I no longer believe you, has shaken me.” Public health messaging is predicated on trust, which overcomes the enormous complexity of the scientific literature, creating an opportunity to communicate initiatives effectively. Still, violation of this trust renders the communication unreliable. When trust is shattered, messaging is no longer clear and straightforward, and instead results in the audience trying to reverse-engineer the statement based on their view of the speaker’s intent. Simply put, noble lies can rob confidence from the public, leading to confusion, a loss of credibility, conspiracy theories, and obfuscated policy.
Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating. The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped.
The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped.
Not certain
It was not well meaning, fuck off with you retard slate article
That was a Vinay Prasad article; he's been generally pretty good about being an outspoken critic of Fauci and the CDC, while presenting his arguments in a tone that isn't too harsh.
Calling for Fauci to be hung in a public square would not be too harsh. To refer to the government response as "well meaning" is fucking insulting.
The point was "when you've lost slate..."
Even though the article tries to give Fauci the benefit of the doubt and calling the "well intentioned" and "noble lies", it was still calling out how bad lies are.
There is no such thing as a noble lie. Anyone can make a mistake, but a lie is a lie regardless of intent. And these were no small lies intended to achieve a noble purpose. These were mad scientists who evaded reasonable safeguards on highly hazardous experiments and it blew up in their faces. Their lies were not intended to protect the people from our own ignorance; they were intended to cover up possibly criminal behavior by official scientists.
Nothing noble about this lie.
Fauci knew he was guilty of supporting the GoF research and would be held responsible, criminally since he went around protocol.
He deserves to die a long painful death.
Spiritus Mundi:
I don’t know why they lied, but I know their intent was good. Also, they only lied about covid origins and nothing else. – Jfree.
You are wrong on ALL counts, and you most likely know it.
Why did Reason take three years to notice when it was obvious from the outset?
You don’t go against Project Mockingbird.
Virtual lockdown cocktail parties.
... Locktail Parties?
Enh.
Cockdown parties.
The only parties sarcasmic is invited to.
Double-masking is recommended.
Mandatory.
Unless you currently have something in your mouth. You can't catch COVID if you have something in your mouth.
Does sarcs 2 inch penis count?
Optimist.
Reason was actually good on lab leak. The only covid topic they were actually good on. They were terrible on every other aspect. Then again they seemed fine with lab leak and covid facts being censored if the government wanted it to be.
If by good you mean not batshit crazy deniers of it's possibility and instead went for silence unless they could call Trump a racist for suggesting such a thing, then sure. Lower the bar enough and anything becomes "good".
Nah. Good look at Robbies articles. They are even relatively early in the controversy.
Reason also at least covered rational vaccine hesitancy, as related to swine flu vaccines and how this time it will be different.
https://reason.com/video/2020/08/04/why-americans-fear-the-covid-19-vaccine/
also about masks
https://reason.com/2020/06/11/the-government-was-wrong-about-masks
ENB was uniquely awful on masks- a perfect example of how confirmation bias among Blue Bubble Dwellers has turned Reason into a mockery of libertarian thought.
That entire article is essentially "Hey, I cherrypicked these studies to confirm that masks are totes awesome, so let's talk about how awesome masks are and start from the premise of how we get more people to mask....(also we shouldn't force people to mask)."
She posted another article a month earlier, where she essentially victim blamed, saying that we should all encourage voluntary masking if we don't want the authoritarians to force the issue.
https://reason.com/2020/05/05/masks-can-be-a-symbol-of-privacy-and-personal-responsibility-not-tyranny/?comments=true#comments
But here we are 3 years later and all of her articles based on The Science! (tm) are so wrong that they honestly should have corrections issued. None of the pro-masking dogma has withstood the test of time. And so none of her articles have withstood the test of time. This is the danger of letting your Blue Bubble proclivities drive your narratives. Imagine a libertarian writing that article, but replacing masking with some other religious ritual, like circumcision.
Had ENB actually just written articles promoting liberty instead of trying to get people to agree with her Blue Bubble superstitions, then the fact that The Science! (tm) failed her would be a side note- a small update to the article, rather than a correction that invalidates the substantial majority of the text.
That which aligns with MAGA themes is identified as a conspiracy theory, until the pronouns become "I told you so".
"Why did Reason take three years to notice when it was obvious from the outset?"
Because the Regime supporters who fund Reason hoped the story would go away, but it did not and finally people have to fess up, slowly.
Matt Welch deserves a woodchipper
Following Koch orders?
Citing RFKjr? GMAFB
Why are people incapable of thinking in probabilistic terms and updating probabilities as new information comes in?
Why are you fuckin retarded?
Why do the probabilities always align with government narratives?
The dice are loaded.
Listen, cretin, just because you're stupid doesn't mean the rest of us are. For example, early on I thought that the wet market was the likelier explanation - particularly given my knowledge of how Chinese markets operate - and later on I thought that the lab leak was the likelier explanation. At no point did I state definitively it was one source or the other. That other people seem to require definitive statements is their issue not mine.
But keep on missing the point and keep being a fuckwit, by all means.
Youre angry today shrike. More job cuts at Act Blue?
Is your knowledge of Chinese markets the same racism you show based on your knowledge of conservative minorities? It was never the most likely explanation.
I’m still not shrike, you lying fuckwit.
Not angry – merely energised.
My knowledge of Chinese markets is from 18 months living in HK after the handover – with the occasional article in the SCMP. as well as articles on the origin of new flu strains. Given that - as well as books like The Coming Plague, a natural origin seemed more likely to me initially. Given the way you think about the world, without any knowledge at all you would have thought lab leak and even if it had been the market - and it's still not definitive that it's not - you would have held to the lab leak hypothesis forever.
And unlike you I’m no racist, though being a realist always gives an opportunity for genuinely racist cunts like you to accuse us of being racist to deflect from your own racism. You’re an anti-Semite, and IIRC a defender of the Confederacy as well. It doesn’t get more racist than that, IMO.
BTW just because you won't vote for RFKjr doesn't mean you're not an anti-Semite.
Nice projection, faggot.
So just more racism from you. Good backstory for your sock though shrike. When have I been racist shrike? Youre the one that hates any minority off the plantation.
Very early on scientists saw unnatural markers on the virus. They saw China censoring data and even deleting it. They saw WHO covering for them. I can find you articles from mod 2019 if you want. You probably dismissed it as conspiracy at the time.
Wet markets was never the most possible theory shrike.
""Given the way you think about the world, without any knowledge at all you would have thought lab leak and even if it had been the market – and it’s still not definitive that it’s not – you would have held to the lab leak hypothesis forever.""
So? People can hold the wrong opinion. It's the attacking of people who held an alternate position than what the government wanted to promote that's the problem.
You believe it was wet market. Fine.
You believe it was lab leak. Fine.
The problem is when one of those opinions starts getting scrubbed because it's not the official narrative.
No, you leftists are the anti semites. It’s a big part of why you all want the Israelis to be exterminated. At the end of the day, none of you are any better than Misek.
See, that just proves you’re not a Real Libertarian(tm).
A Real Libertarian analyzed the situation in February 2020 and concluded that since all the Experts were saying that the virus started in a wet market, that they were wrong. Because the experts are always wrong.
Then, a Real Libertarian looks at what the government officials are saying, and if they are saying that the virus started in a wet market, then that is just additional proof that they are wrong, because the government is always wrong.
Finally, a Real Libertarian looks at the fact that the virus originated in China, which is communist, and concludes that the most sinister explanation – that the virus was deliberately a bio-engineered weapon to take down Trump – is the likeliest one.
As a final touch, the Real Libertarian does a few web searches for some scientific papers that supports the case so a patina of scientific legitimacy can be applied to the argument.
That is the correct explanation according to Real Libertarian Principles. QED.
What makes it so awesome is that the media-government complex was actually wrong about everything.
You’re like that old party official
in “Chernobyl” who said: “we must suppress misinformation “
Dumb establishment faggot is still dumb.
And Real Libertarians knew they were wrong all the way back in February 2020.
In fact Real Libertarians knew they were wrong even before the virus was synthesized!
Real libertarians always trust the government.
Kill yourself.
Real Libertarians do not need facts to make decisions, only a paranoid distrust of government and experts.
Why do you lie so much?
I called jeffy a True Libertarian yesterday. It is a solid dig based on a asinine Sarcasmic comment from 3 years ago, when he bade farewell to the commentariat and noted that Mike & Jeff were the closest to true libertarians.
Jeffy makes the deliberate choice to behave like Napoleon in Animal Farm. He figures he can convince the sheep into bleating out his co-opted phrase and drown out the real story. Did I mention he is a mendacious twat? Because he is definitely a mendacious twat. If I may wax poetic for a moment:
What a piece of work is jeffy, How ignoble in Reason, how infinite in fallacies, In form and moving how grotesque and abominable, In action how like a Weasel, In misinformation how much like Vox, The creeper of the comments, The paragon of trolls. And yet to me, what is this quintessence of twats?
A pity Sarc didn’t follow through. But then he is a gutless pussy.
Lol. Jeff is feeling stupid for ignoring Occam’s razor and buying into the wet market lie, so he’s lashing out at people with common sense.
I swear this guy is getting worse every day. Someone should check on him. Perhaps senator Murphys new loneliness department could help him. The radical individualist does love him some big government, after all.
" Because the experts are always wrong.
Not always, but with today's experts, that's the way to bet.
Mmmm, taste the smearing condescension.
Against the paranoid lunatics around here? You bet.
Paranoid lunatics? I see someone is taking my comments personally and trying to flip the script.
Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP) 20 hours ago
...The “proxy” stuff is wonderfully evocative of a persecution complex.
Mocking people for being right? Impressive.
A Real Libertarian analyzed the situation in February 2020 and concluded that since all the Experts were saying that the virus started in a wet market, that they were wrong. Because the experts are always wrong.
This kind of Brainy Smurf well-poisoning ("We know the virus came from a wet market, because Papa Smurf always says...") is hilarious, because freakin' Jerryskids was the first poster here to mention that the virus just happened to pop up in the same vicinity as the Wuhan Institute about a week after the story broke out.
That didn't take any "expert" analysis, just basic observation. The details about how Fauci was using EcoHealth Alliance as a front group to fund the type of gain of function research on the virus that had been forbidden by the Obama administration didn't even come out until much later.
“…analysed the situation in February 2020 and concluded that since all the Experts were saying that the virus started in a wet market, that they were wrong. Because the experts are always wrong.”
No, they’d argue “You know, it seems really odd that this disease nobody had seen before originated at a wet market and not a virus lab that was across the street”. The wet market story always strained credulity.
“Then, a Real Libertarian looks at what the government officials are saying, and if they are saying that the virus started in a wet market, then that is just additional proof that they are wrong, because the government is always wrong.”
Or, again, notice that there was a VIRUS LAB ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE WET MARKET IN QUESTION. If I see a dead body with a bullet hole in their head and I see two people, one with a smoking gun and one looking horrified — I’m not going to assume that the horrified person quickly gave the other person their gun.
“Finally, a Real Libertarian looks at the fact that the virus originated in China, which is communist, and concludes that the most sinister explanation – that the virus was deliberately a bio-engineered weapon to take down Trump – is the likeliest one.”
OR…they’d notice that China barred travel WITHIN China but not to other countries. Which is hella suspicious.
“As a final touch, the Real Libertarian does a few web searches for some scientific papers that supports the case so a patina of scientific legitimacy can be applied to the argument.”
Weird how ALL the medical info sided with the “masks don’t do a thing” side, ain’t it?
Now do the Love Canal.
Which is a quite rational take. Why would someone have an immediate strong opinion about what happened in a city thousands of miles away.
Oh, yeah, the why would be partisanship.
Yeah, how could a person think about a thing that happened thousands of miles away?
Are you that disabled?
Cite?
It’s only my personal opinion. So, the comment is the cite.
Well, let's see. A coronavirus originated in a small Chinese city that has a lab devoted to studying and possibly performing GoF on coronaviruses.
Then, China repressed any information about the disease while shutting down intranational travel but continuing international travel.
I wonder why someone might suspect that China developed the disease, and then when it escaped, whether purposely or not, China did its best to ensure the rest of the world suffered as much as possible.
Oh, it is absolutely a reasonable suspicion to think that the virus escaped from the lab. But it is not the only reasonable suspicion.
It was also a reasonable suspicion 3 years ago despite coordinated efforts to suppress it. Yet you just wasted any goodwill you might generate by admitting it is reasonable to mock people who maintained that position despite a concerted effort to portray it as being unsupportable. Who in this scenario is behaving like an asshole?
"Oh, it is absolutely a reasonable suspicion to think that the virus escaped from the lab. But it is not the only reasonable suspicion."
It was, far and away, the most likely scenario --- and the one "Experts" tried to insult people for even CONSIDERING.
You know, we were right. Deal with it.
That’s the closest anyone will get to an apology or admission that we were correct.
How is it partisan? There was a virology institute right fucking there that worked with coronaviruses. I don't think absolute certainty was warranted early on, but it was an obvious and highly plausible potential source.
Lol. “We can ignore common sense and still pretend to be the intellectual betters even after we are proven disastrously wrong”.
- mike
“For example, early on I thought that the wet market was the likelier explanation”
That’s racist as fuck, you cracker ass cracker.
If you remotely believed the wetmarket story you are too retarded to be listed to
'It was dirty foreign peasants trading in weird ethnic foods with zero sanitary standards'
'Chinese lab leak? What are you, some kind of racist?'
- Leftists
The point here is that official scientists were concerned about the possibility of the lab leak scenario immediately after the pandemic went out of control. They expressed concern to Fauci whose response was to point out the danger to science if that idea became generally accepted and "suggested" an unscientific conclusion not only denying the possibility, but also heaping scorn on "conspiracy theorists" for the sole purpose of protecting Fauci from criminal prosecution. It's one thing to change your OWN opinion as new facts come to light, but those of us who were ridiculed from the very beginning and are now being proven to have been correct from the start can perhaps be excused for being very angry over the scorn from the unscientific believers! If this report does not result in criminal charges against Fauci and Collins then the GOP is a bunch of toothless blowhards and there is no possibility of justice in America.
It was entirely predictable in our current stupid partisan war that when Team Red adopted the position of hard belief in the lab leak theory that Team Blue pundits would criticize them for it. But now Team Red are all like, “I’m a victim! Team Blue said mean things about me!”
It’s all childishness.
Team Blue pundits would criticize them for it.
Criticize? They had it classified as misinformation and suppressed it.
"Why did Japanese-Americans get upset during the war? They were asked to spend some time at a camp for the good of the nation. Children go to camp all the time."
This is incredble gas lighting- even from Mike Laursen.
Let's be clear: Team Red didn't start this by settling on this position. The people who floated this possibility at first were people in the elite scientific community. TEAM BLUE. These scientists saw direct evidence that it was not just POSSIBLY a lab leak, but that it was very likely. Those people were immediately silenced and attacked by their own team.
This is not a story of Team Red vs Team Blue. This is a story of institutional elites using their power to suppress the truth from Americans, and trying to indict their own colleagues as racists in order to protect themselves from the criticism of their involvement in a global pandemic.
Now one wonders why Mike wants to gaslight us and instead turn it into a partisan war. Perhaps it is because he is a bit chagrined that these elites and authoritarians were people he defended for years. Perhaps he is trying to distract people from the fact that he, Mike Laursen himself, was constantly trafficking in The Science! (tm) for years- trying to publicly shame people for not accepting the narratives that have since been shown to be false. Alternatively, Mike is just an unrepentant asshole who would rather toss grenades at Team Red than acknowledge just how wrong he was for 3 goddamn years.
I'm going to pick the latter choice on this one.
This is not a story of Team Red vs Team Blue. This is a story of institutional elites using their power to suppress the truth from Americans, and trying to indict their own colleagues as racists in order to protect themselves from the criticism of their involvement in a global pandemic.
My favorite was the Democrats and European left-liberals falling all over themselves to "hug a Chinaman to show you're not racist" during Chinese New Year, and the former throwing a fit because Trump tried to shut down international travel from China.
This is an astounding position to take. So, because people on the right adopted a reasonable and most likely position on the origins of the disease, the people on the right are at fault because they knew that people on the left would knee-jerk disagree with them? Thus, the people on the right now pointing out the treatment they received was wrong and the people on the left were wrong are still at fault because they should have known this was going to happen?
And then you disparage people on the right for acting like victims when they were victims of the behavior of the left?
I mean, I know your schtick is to deflect away criticism of the left as best you can, but don't you have a little shame about the extent you will stretch to do so?
Criticize yes. But it went way beyond that.
Didn't it?
I wouldn’t be calling any of us stupid, as that speaks poorly of your intellect. As it is inferior to any of ours. I suppose I should be a little patient with you, as you’re probably not intelligent enough to grasp any of this.
> Why are you fuckin retarded?
There are only so many times an unwanted child can be dropped on its head before serious, systemic damage occurs.
Reason cites Rachel Maddow, citing RFK Jr. is practically doing the experiment in a lab and confirming the results themselves... in comparison.
"Why are people incapable of thinking in probabilistic terms and updating probabilities as new information comes in?"
Good question. Why was the idea that it might have been a lab leak so vehemently opposed (denied even) and so frantically mocked and derided from so many directions?
That's not true, it wasn't every direction.
We now know from internal emails that fauci knew it was a lab leak the entire time
The SARScasmics have no sense of the sardonic.
It will be interesting to hear Matt's take, as he's far better at molecular bio than banking.
"Because they're a bunch of goddamned fucking cunts, that's why."
I wish we could just admit that scientists are human beings and are thus influenced by all the forces that influence other people.
Like the secret desire to be a super villain?
If I had super powers, I’d spend all my time bothering cops.
The ability to make cops see dogs that aren't there would be hysterical.
I'm envisioning lots of cop cams showing pigs unloading into random patches of grass. Now, that's super hero behavior. The supervillains would overlay the dogs on nice little old ladies.
If o had Superman’s power (even the more grounded late 80’s John Byrne level of power), I would eradicate Marxism around the world.
The marxism is long gone. All we have left is the authoritarianism they used marxism as an excuse to establish totalitarianism.
Vaxxers and climate cranks are influenced by statistics, thermodynamics & radiative equilibrium?
Who knew?
Learn the difference between actual science and “official science “.
Excellent advice.
What's stopping you from following it?
Retards like you really shouldn’t try to be clever.
yeah - that was pretty close to .."I know you are but what am I?"
""Official science" is what the doctors at the CDC believe.
"Actual science" is what the doctors on Facebook pages believe.
Keep trying to preserve the system, fuckbag.
Actual science is what the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration were doing.
It’s also the GOF research that Fauci was funding.
Actual science understands there's no such thing as "official science."
chemtard "radical individualist" loves sucking establishment cock.
Largeass ❤️ govt largesse
Fat, Marxist, stupid, pedophillic and sea lioning is no way to go through life.
Must suck when the "Actual science" (your term) ends up bring correct.
Public officials should realize that people do not trust them. If another pandemic occurs, few will take their pronouncements seriously.
Not grasping that difference is Public Entelectual's whole schtick.
It is a slave to the narrative.
They are also correct roughly the same percentage of the time that the probability that the earth is flat rises above 0.
Facebook locked a number of accounts for supporting the lab leak theory - apparently it was racist hate speech to suggest someone in another country might have done something bad. This is why Threads should and hopefully will die. They don't deserve to be used as a communication platform.
There was also the Zerohedge incident.
What was the Zerohedge incident?
Look it up faggot,
Good. If everyone dealt with Fatfuck in that manner he might go away.
Probably relates to this.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/13/21290118/twitter-reinstates-zerohedge-coronavirus
The article also claims that lab leak was debunked. A common piece of misinformation that was passed around by the left to shut down the dissenting opinion.
Locked accounts or took down specific posts?
Cite?
I didn’t assert anything. I asked a question.
It started with just the fact check labels.
Yes, both happened.
Caw caw!
“Why Did Scientists Suppress the Lab Leak Theory?”
Several reasons which are all connected. One is that the U.S. government was funding the bio-weapon lab through many institutions in which all the money went through Fauci. They were not supposed to be doing such research in that facility, and therefore were trying to hide that information. In addition, many of our politicians and governmental agency leaders were being supported financially by the CCP and it was against their financial interest to blame the global “pandemic” on China.
Next, and almost most importantly, the pandemic could be used to take out the President at the time by blaming him for all the harms it caused. For him to suggest it was a lab-leak (whether he said it was deliberate or accidental) could be called both racist and xenophobic which would distract the nation’s attention away from questioning exactly how this virus arrived in our nation.
But the most compelling reason for the insistence for the narrative that it was a natural phenonomen rather than a lab leak is the governmental authorities could scream, “The virus is everywhere and gone wild. You will all die unless you do exactly what we say and give up the few freedoms that we allow you to enjoy”.
Methinks the wet market narrative was just so believable that other possibilities just weren’t strongly considered.
You should read the Nature Medicine paper, and also the House Select Committee report.
From what I read, the authors of the Nature Medicine paper actually wrestled quite a bit with three possible explanations for the origins of the virus. They weren’t willing to dismiss any of them out of hand, because they really did ‘follow the science’, the scientific evidence at the time did not support dismissing any of them. It is also true, on the other hand, that they allowed some non-scientific reasoning to creep into their decision-making (and no it wasn’t about Trump). They worried that if the idea of a lab leak caught hold, that it would damage international scientific collaborations with China. Which is a meaningful concern, but maybe not one that is relevant for a scientific article.
The proper response is to share what you know, what you do not, and what you are doing with an expected timetable.
I recall the Chinese virologist that went missing after posting about a strange respiratory illness in the Wuhan area.
There is a difference imo between suppressing v simply ignoring an origin story. And the difference is mostly political.
By January 10, 2020, China had released the gene sequence of covid to the rest of the world. By January 16, 2020, Germany developed the first working diagnostic test. A dozen countries developed their version of same with a week or two of that.
On January 17, the CDC dispatched 100 people to US airports to ‘screen’ incoming passengers from China. But it took the CDC six more weeks to even admit that they had no working diagnostic test, had only tested 400 people, didn’t ‘screen’ anyone or actually do anything re those passengers, and were now lost re what to do next re testing. Another month later and the FDA emergency approved a PCR test. Which is around the time that Nature paper re origins gets released. And the time the US admitted to no policy option other than lockdown.
I think the current emphasis on origin story is mainly for the purpose of avoiding accountability for what the US failed to do early on. Blame it on the Chinese. The origin story did not need to be ‘correct’ to deal with the virus itself. It’s useful to know and very useful to prevent future outbreaks.
But this is basically irrelevant to what really happened unless the argument is that the public health people were so completely obsessed with suppressing a ‘lab leak narrative’ that they failed to deal with the virus.
This of course supposes that the US could have done anything to prevent the spread of this disease. That is a silly supposition, of course, but this is JFree we are talking about.
South Korea managed to hugely reduce the spread and death toll - with no lockdown. No country in the wealthy world had as shitty a response to covid before the vaccine finally got rolled out - with the consequence of the highest excess death rates that year. Same origin - then unknown. Same virus. WAY different death rates and ways of getting there.
But hey pretend the issue is about the spread of the disease rather than the spread of DEAD people. Pretend that the only possible option for the US was to stick our heads up our butts. For you Rockwell/Rothbard nihilists forever because more dead people = liberty.
No country in the wealthy world had as shitty a response to covid before the vaccine finally got rolled out – with the consequence of the highest excess death rates that year. Same origin – then unknown. Same virus. WAY different death rates and ways of getting there.
Considering the establishment's mouthpiece, the NYT, is now admitting that the death numbers from COVID were cooked more than Trump's steaks, the far more likely reason for the excess death numbers is people who couldn't get treatment for other ailments because the hospitals stupidly stopped providing that healthcare and laid off staff.
Considering that there is no link, blahblahblah. We know what the causes of those excess deaths are. They are overwhelmingly respiratory - diagnosed with covid. Who were admitted to hospital.
Considering that there is no link, blahblahblah. We know what the causes of those excess deaths are.
Not really. Not anymore. Not after the establishment's mouthpiece finally admitted the death counts from COVID are way overinflated.
1/3 over the initial estimate isn't a rounding error, you stupid fuck.
Again no link. I don't really even remotely care what the NYT says. Though they may link to a real source of data. But I sure as fuck don't trust your partisan parroting of some Fox interpretation of what NYT may or may not have said.
Again no link. I don’t really even remotely care what the NYT says.
Well, of course you don't, you stubborn fuck, it destroys the fairy tale you have built in your head.
The link is easy enough to find since the report just came out Monday. Now go fuck yourself.
And for fucks sake. You are actually asserting that hospitals reduced their capacity throughout 2020? Where the fuck did you morons go to school? Are you all truly this stupid?
And for fucks sake. You are actually asserting that hospitals reduced their capacity throughout 2020?
There's plenty of articles about them laying off staff and delaying treatments, dumdum. Feel free to pull them up. The Denver Post reported on April 15, 2022 that they were using COVID payments as "lifelines" for that very fucking reason.
All of your precious narratives have been getting blown to shit lately.
Fine. Whatever. Every hospital and doctor in the US is guilty of massive upcoding fraud and they should all be executed.
Here's the Society of Actuaries report on excess deaths in 2020 and 2021. The people who price your life insurance and aren't paid to screw things up or make political decisions about some temporary cause of death. They are not lying about covid. Precisely BECAUSE that is a temporary cause of death not something expected for the future.
The ONLY age group where covid was not the overwhelming cause of excess deaths was the 15-34 age group. Those are not ever the largest portion or even a significant portion of hospital admissions. I have no doubt that was the group hit hardest by the closures of restaurants, etc and their employers fraudulent 'payroll protection' piggery. Suicides and overdoses rose a lot. But overall, that is still only a small portion of the overall excess deaths.
Fine. Whatever. Every hospital and doctor in the US is guilty of massive upcoding fraud and they should all be executed.
Thanks for so elegantly conceding that point with that bit of bitch hyperbole.
Here’s the Society of Actuaries report on excess deaths in 2020 and 2021. The people who price your life insurance and aren’t paid to screw things up or make political decisions about some temporary cause of death. They are not lying about covid. Precisely BECAUSE that is a temporary cause of death not something expected for the future.
if the cause of death is misreported on the front end, it's going to be misreported on the back end too, you dumbshit.
The ONLY age group where covid was not the overwhelming cause of excess deaths was the 15-34 age group.
if the cause of death is misreported on the front end, it's going to be misreported on the back end too, you dumbshit.
And you mean the age group that tends to not have significant health issues had lower excess death rates? What a fucking shock!
RRWP, he seems unfamiliar with the Garbage In, Garbage Out issue with models and the like.
Weird how these swamped, overworked hospitals had time for their staff to engage in professionally shot and choreographed dance videos, ain't it?
"South Korea managed to hugely reduce the spread and death toll – with no lockdown."
1) It is incorrect to compare the US to South Korea. South Korea is essentially an island nation. It's only connection to the continent is a border that even wildlife does not cross. South Korea has 8 international airports, compared to over 300 for the United States. The country is essentially a few highly populated cities isolated by mountains. The implication that any control mechanism employed in South Korea could be scaled to work in the US is absurd on its face.
2) South Korea also did not stop the spread. By tightly controlling their small number of Points of Entry, they were able to delay the spread for about 2 years- until they were wrecked starting in March of 2022. As a result, their excess mortality rate was about 7% to the US's 13% . That's great, but again, goes to show that JFear is wrong to think that South Korea somehow licked the spread.
But let's be clear here: JFear's initial argument was vague criticism of the CDC's approach to Points of Entry. This implies that the US could get thousands of CDC officials out to over 350 international points of entry (not to mention every border crossing between the US, Mexico and the Caribbean) in order to somehow get a handle on a disease that has been found infecting deer and dogs.
You’re just totally full of shit aren’t you.
They are no more an ‘island nation’ than the US is – unless you are arguing that covid came to the US via Canada and Mexico.
Korea is hugely tied to China via both trade and expatriate/citizen ties – 26% of Korea’s imports and 21% of their exports are with China. There are 400,000+ South Koreans living in China compared to roughly 100,000 Americans. The US is half a fucking world away and there are direct flights to only a dozen or so airports in the US.
Korea – not the US – is the country that Chinese agents went to in Jan2020 to drain them of medical supplies. Within one WEEK of realizing that the shortages would affect their own response, SK had solved the shortages (via full production-run purchases by govt and export bans).
Korea took it all seriously – esp hospital entry/screening protocols to prevent hospitals themselves from becoming the superspreaders – because they had had to deal with MERS in 2015
They approved their first diagnostic test in late Jan. By mid March, they had received 64 applications, reviewed 22, and approved 5 diagnostic tests. That is roughly when the US approved its FIRST test that worked. During Feb 2020, Korea tested 250,000 people, identified 8000 cases, and had those 8000 self-isolate with 72 dead. During Feb 2020, the US tested 400, identified zero via quick tests (because the tests didn’t work), and only knew about 15 covid cases.
By the end of 2020 (roughly vaccine), Korea had 61,000 cases (0.1% of peeps) and 920 dead. The US had 19 million cases (5.5% of peeps) and 340,000 dead.
Korea did not do as good a job transitioning to the post-vaccine stage. But the FACT is that they stomped on the disease transmission itself in 2020. Because they acted fast, made good decisions, focused on health stuff rather than politics, and didn’t have such an enormous group of denialist anti-science idiots like you and your ilk here.
And guess what - Korea didn't know where the virus came from then either. It had NOTHING to do with how to deal with it.
The US had 19 million cases (5.5% of peeps) and 340,000 dead.
Those death numbers were overcounted, so we don't actually know what the real death toll was.
Quit with your stupidity.
Mar 2020 - Jan 2021:
2,728,042 actual corpses.
2,236,428 expected corpses
491,614 excess corpses.
Absent covid YOU have to explain all those excess corpses
Jan 2021 - Jan 2022:
3,457,109 actual corpses
2,947,126 expected corpses
509,983 excess corpses
Absent covid YOU have to explain all those excess corpses. And guess what, this time they are predominantly in red areas with low vaccination rates and no lockdowns at all.
if the cause of death is misreported on the front end, it’s going to be misreported on the back end too, you dumbshit.
Your COVID hysteria was bullshit, you were dead fucking wrong about hospitals laying off staff, therefore nothing you say can be taken at face value.
Red Rocks is the dumbshit; his handle describes accurately what is between his ears. The excess deaths are remarkably similar to the actual reported COVID deaths, closer than in most countries. Trump lied to the American people and fomented this mass death. He was right that his supporters support him even though he committed homicide.
charliehall is malbushim trying to cover for his failed bureaucrat shitheels.
The excess deaths are remarkably similar to the actual reported COVID deaths, closer than in most countries.
The actual reported COVID deaths were overcounted and due to other causes.
Charlie, JFree, listen…….. you guys are idiot leftist assholes. Even the NYT has admitted that COVID deaths were grossly over counted.
So you can both fuck off with your leftist narratives. Even your masters have admitted they were full of shit. Just like the both of you.
Correct that knowing the source is irrelevant. This is hypocritical anti-Chinese propaganda. Hypocritical because most people pushing lab leak or bioengineered theory are big supporters of Vladimir Putin, Xi's biggest ally.
Stop licking Fauci's taint, you stupid little escargot.
‘It was dirty foreign peasants trading in weird ethnic foods with zero sanitary standards’
‘Chinese lab leak? What are you, some kind of racist?’
– Leftists
Koreans also wear masks. They did do even before COVID. My Korean friends ask me why Americans are so stupid.
Why are they asking? They're friends with you, aren't they?
"You’re just totally full of shit aren’t you."
Your projection is incredible. You constantly parachute into comments stating your deeply held beliefs as fact, and then result to baseless insults when I point out how wrong you are. Here is a perfect example, where you tried attacking me based on your mistaken eyeballing of a climate graph:
https://reason.com/2022/08/19/incompetent-people-are-often-too-incompetent-to-realize-just-how-incompetent-they-are-says-new-study/?comments=true#comment-9662173
We have seen this again and again with you. Cryptocurrency, Inflation, Masking....You constantly think up shit in your head that makes common sense to you, and never think it through. It is comical.
You did nothing to disprove my case. Korea has a handful of points of entry, which it could control. That could not be done in the US. Look around the world and you see that the countries that could isolate did better than the rest of the world. That includes New Zealand, Australia and Korea. You simply cannot compare their containment procedures, because their starting problems are completely different.
"Korea did not do as good a job transitioning to the post-vaccine stage."
So let's get this right- if you CHERRY PICK the timing and conditions for Korea, JFree can prove that Korea was sooooo much better than the US.
Alternatively, the notion that you could stop the spread of a virus that infects people and wildlife, likely spreads asymptomatically, and mutates faster than we can vaccinate for it was a flawed notion. Korea eventually got hammered. They could not prevent the breakout, because preventing the breakout meant being diligent FOREVER.
"unless you are arguing that covid came to the US via Canada and Mexico."
This is a perfect example of you just obviously saying shit you don't know about. Please, I welcome you on your next google-search for facts to lookup the curious case of Mexicali and Imperial County, California. You will quickly find that your statement is not as poignant as you think.
But that is the way your brain works. You just make shit up in your head and think it must be right, when in fact you just don't know. It has led you over and over again to assert stuff that just isn't true.
I think I finally figured out why your ilk is so immune to facts. You only accept facts/reality if it fits some pre-set narrative. Maybe that's why you so easily fall down conspiracy rabbit holes. Those are also narratives that are immune to all facts that don't comport with the narrative.
Korea has a handful of points of entry, which it could control. That could not be done in the US.
So basically the anti-Winston Churchill speech. We can't fight the virus on the beaches. Or from the skies. Or burrowing up from the ground. Or the infected mooses invading from Canada. Or the hordes of brown infected Chinamen swimming across the Rio Grande.
If only we had had a limited number of international airports. Like less than two dozen capable of dealing with ocean-crossing flights. But we didn't. And anyway, we have absolutely no fucking clue what to do once the virus has breached the airports. So we shall surrender forthwith.
"No country in the wealthy world had as shitty a response to covid before the vaccine finally got rolled out"
Remember Italy's 'Hug an Asian Tourist' campaign in early 2020 to combat racism and xenophobia during the Chinese New Year, right as Covit was picking up pace?
Kindly reflect upon that and then consider the veracity of your above statement.
Yes - including Italy. Which btw shut off airline travel from China the same day the US did.
Italy
Mar 1 2020 - 1694 cases 34 dead
Apr 1 2020 - 106 k cases 12400 dead
May 1 2020 - 206 k cases 28000 dead
Jun 1 2020 - 233 k cases 33400 dead
US
Mar 1 2020 - 42 cases 2 dead
Apr 1 2020 - 186 k cases 3800 dead
May 1 2020 - 1.1 million cases 57100 dead
Jun 1 2020 - 1.8 million cases 98000 dead
Italy had a ton of dead people when their hospital system broke in March. That's what happens when hospital systems break in a pandemic. Everyone knows that - except apparently much of the US in late 2021 over a year later.
Even so - by May 2020 and from then on, it was the US that had lost it and was simply happy to let people die in large numbers.
We're talking about Italy here. Their hospital system breaks down every flu season -- and with every other flu season, most of the other countries handle the influx of flu patients just fine. Covid was no different with that regard!
One set of scientists just interviewed by the House show them initially believing the lab leak theory before Fauci sent them an email and gave them a bug funding grant.
It really is as simple as scientists getting paid to lie for government.
But the most compelling reason for the insistence for the narrative that it was a natural phenonomen rather than a lab leak is the governmental authorities could scream, “The virus is everywhere and gone wild. You will all die unless you do exactly what we say and give up the few freedoms that we allow you to enjoy”.
They were absolutely desperate to get their "Great Reset." Instead, they've spent the last three years jerking themselves off to Big Policy Decisions while their societies crumble to shit around them.
https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1681465180553617410?t=78nUffSzk2ZupEXJ3N_v4w&s=19
The Biden administration has halted the Wuhan Institute of Virology’s access to federal funding after the lab failed to provide documents about safety and security measures
This just happened.... now???
Wouldn't want to be overcautious...
Nothing like shutting the barn door years after the horses have escaped.
This is looking in the barn to see if the horse is still there, three years after the horse escaped.
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/bomb-went-pfizer-plant-north-carolina-destroyed-tornado
Dramatic footage posted on Twitter shows the aftermath of a tornado that ripped through a massive Pfizer pharmaceutical plant in North Carolina on Wednesday, scattering "50,000 pallets of medicine" across the property.
Pfizer told local media outlet ABC 11 that a twister damaged its Rocky Mount manufacturing space that sits on 250 acres in Eastern North Carolina.
There is one thing made very clear by the “infamous” unscientific article and the Committee report: scientists and Congressional aides were poorly educated in grammar and vocabulary! First of all in this context it’s “proximate” (causation), not “proximal” (anatomy: closer to the center of the body); and for another: “had yet to done so by” – it’s “had yet to have done so by” or “had yet to do so by;” and finally: "which's goal was" (wtf?!) One might expect such mistakes in a first draft, but these were still making things less clear in final versions released to the public where much more clarity might have been hoped for. Having said that, I’m glad someone – even partisan hacks – are finally way too late investigating Fauci and his hired-gun scientific hit men.
Maybe you missed the point of newspeak?
Double plus unthink
I have a bad bellyfeel about this.
What a stupid question. As they say, "I tried to follow the Science and I couldn't find it. Then I decided to follow the Money and I found the Science." Fauci was funding the research at the Wuhan lab so he was desperate to cover that fact up. Since he controlled billions of dollars in grant money, including most of the money involved in virus research, it wasn't hard to persuade scientists dependent on staying in his good graces and favor to go along with the cover-up.
Kudos to you for being the first commenter here to point out that the Wuhan lab just happened to be in the same place the virus was said to have emerged.
It was across the street from the wet market. But, yeah, "science" would indicate a market is far more likely for a virus to originate at than a virus lab and all.
Political pressure? Fear of losing government funding. In China fear of losing funding, being imprisoned and the firing squad.
It was not well meaning, fuck off with you retard slate article
I may have discovered a shortcut.. I can just post the fallacious nonsense that jeffy posted yesterday rather than micromanaging the fallacious nonsense today.
https://reason.com/2023/07/19/sen-chris-murphy-wants-the-government-to-help-you-make-friends/?comments=true#comment-10161238
Seriously?
Q: Why did my 10-year-old suppress the theory behind why he got a bloody nose the other day?
A: The truth, that he had his finger up there, was embarrassing.
BFYTW
It's remarkable that over 100 responses were posted before Matt, Nick & Zach said anything.
The spectrum of YouTube podcast responses was wonderfully captured in this exchange:
@5tycho
Matt Ridley's initial reaction to ethnically targetted bioweapons is similar to his initial reaction to the lab leak theory which he now regrets. Perhaps he should have developed more humility and just say I don't know enough or I will do more research on this and get back to you.
Reply
@MonsQuietus
They are demons in human meatsuits. That's why.
Reply
It’s remarkable that over 100 responses were posted before Matt, Nick & Zach said anything.
^Tell me you have *absolutely* no clue how Youtube works without saying "I have *absolutely* no clue how Youtube works."
And in the latest issue of (Un)Scientific American, they are again pushing the natural origin fairy tale and calling the lab leak "extremely unlikely". The Leftist Overlords just won't give up and admit the truth.
The idiotic idea of a " natural origin fairy tale" is contradicted by fruit bat , AKA flying fox's continuing presence on menus from Fiji to Fujiang
"The idiotic idea of the Tooth Fairy being a myth is contradicted by teeth, AKA smile bones that fall out of people's heads that get placed under pillows from Albany to Albuquerque."
If a theory was advanced that COVID started from a bio-warfare attack by American agents on China and Iran, as Ron Unz has in fact done, would you expect any project to suppress or ignore such theory would arise in, among other places, the US House of Representatives? unz.com
I never dismissed the lab leak theory. But the idea that it was bioengineered makes no sense. If the Chinese did bioengineer it they are the most incompetent bioengineers in the world.
That it being natural defies all logic and there is literally no evidence of that being the case...then, yes, the Chinese are incompetent bioegineers.
I’m beginning to think we really need to start executing these people. That, unlike Evolution, rational thought’s self-correcting and self-cleansing mechanisms are woefully ineffective. Maybe we could work something out with the trans movement where whenever someone says or does something so stupid along those lines, they give up a gonad.
The natural origin religion has a celestial tea pot built in that makes the search for a celestial tea pot actually look reasonable. Moreover, to cling to their religion, even just as a false equivalence, requires them to make statements to the effect of “Yes, those people are so inept they can’t run a wet market safely but their viral engineering research is beyond reproach.” (*and* doing so while other groups of *those people*, who could face (more) punishment for saying it, pretty openly say if bad practices were going to cause something like this to happen, it would probably be those guys).
Overarchingly, nobody, but nobody, advancing the lab leak theory is saying wet markets are a good thing and that unsanitary conditions should be preserved, quite the opposite. Meanwhile, the *only* reason people would be advancing natural origins with any earnest is to continue to conduct illicit viral research that kills people recklessly.
Rationally and for the good of the species, they should be eradicated. They aren’t a race, creed, nationality, or sex, they’re just a group of people who want to rationalize any/all mass murder on the premise that they can pretend that it couldn’t have been rationalized up front. Three generations of imbeciles may or may not be enough, maybe more should be tolerated, but one generation of imbeciles that advocates for reckless, causative viral pandemic is one generation too many.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
I wasted my time watching this.
If there's a lab leak, it did not start in the US with Fauci. It started in China. That's also where a cover up would have started.
You can see the exact article that would constitute 'the cover-up'. The Feb 3 2020, publication (originally Jan 20, 2020 submission) in Nature - A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus. Written by more than a dozen people from that Wuhan Virology Institute. Including two of the three people who the US government accuses of being 'Patient Zero'. That article also happens to be the most cited/significant article about covid from that time frame.
And published the same day Feb 3 2020 (submitted Jan 7 2020) in the same publication Nature, an article written by more than a dozen Chinese not one of whom was Wuhan Institute.
This isn't the rabbit hole the DeRps are going down. Instead the critter committee is focusing on what can only be Fauci doing gain-of-function stuff. Or scientists doing conflict of interest because of NIH grants. Which is fine but it has nothing to do with covid or an actual lab leak or holding govt accountable or really anything that is the claimed intention here.
Obama made GoF research funding illegal.
Fauci violated the law and should be prosecuted for doing so.
That it leaked from a lab is the only viable theory and you're just humbling yourself carrying water for the same people who were wrong on pretty much everything to date.
Gain of function research funding was restored in Dec 2017. Odd that you don’t know that. Why is that you think?
Leaked from a lab doesn’t mean bioengineered and it isn’t the only viable origin. But any investigation would absolutely 100% have to focus on China. Which is NOT where this investigation is even tangentially being focused on. This is a DC focused investigation. Which means it’s about politics and DeRp not covid or accountability.
Bravo !
The short answer to the headline questions is that they were NOT scientists when the suppressed the idea that Covid-19 originated in a lab. They MAY be scientists at other times, but they were political hacks when they suppressed debate.
I have been gradually working my way through the documents listed in the Congressional Committee Report and the chain of references in the original documents. It turns out that Sir Jeremy Farrar, of Wellcome Trust and Chief Scientist of the World Health Organization, wrote a book about his part in the COVID-19 Pandemic. You can go to this link on Amazon and read a sample, which quite frankly raised the hair on the back of my neck!
https://www.amazon.com/Spike/dp/1788169220/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20ANIWM3WW2BX&keywords=spike+jeremy+farrar&qid=1690151988&sprefix=spike+jeremy+farra%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-1&asin=B08X671H6M&revisionId=5f66ec88&format=1&depth=1&tag=reasonmagazinea-20