Should Libertarians Root for a National Divorce?
Dave Smith discusses the libertarian case for and against breaking up the United States.
HD DownloadIs it time for blue states and red states to stop fighting over their differences and just get a divorce?
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R–Ga.), along with many on the political right, says it's time to seriously consider breaking the country apart.
The Libertarian Party (L.P.) has also been promoting this idea on Twitter since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade.
"Pro-lifers, why share a country with those who support the dismemberment of babies in the womb?," the L.P. tweeted in June. "Pro-choicers, why share a country with those who would take a woman's right to abort away? #NationalDivorce."
The politics of abortion are thorny and contentious even among libertarians, but what about when it comes to the more straightforward libertarian positions on free speech, guns, and private property? Is trampling on individual rights more legitimate when a state or city government does it?
Why would it be acceptable at the local but not the federal level to relinquish our liberties to the tyranny of the majority?
Also, the kind of national divorce between red and blue America that partisans like Greene are calling for doesn't accurately capture the rich political diversity of a country designed from the founding to contain multitudes.
When I tweeted that talk of a "national divorce" implies "there are only two sides, that you must choose one," and that the discussion is mostly about "tribal rage," I got a lot of pushback, including in the form of this map, showing America divided into its thousands of counties, suggesting that we can Balkanize into a limitless number of political tribes.
"I love how [discussing a national divorce] gets people thinking about something that seems almost off limits," says comedian, podcast host, and possible L.P. presidential candidate Dave Smith. I talked with Smith about the possibility of a national divorce after we exchanged words on Twitter about it. You can see a fuller discussion between us in the video above. He says the topic is a political litmus test.
"I think the question becomes how bad do you really think this current situation is?" says Smith. "Is it an inconvenience? Or is this something that is really dangerous? And I think the situation of us being a union right now is very dangerous."
The increasing centralization of political power in America is indeed concerning and dangerous. But is rooting for the breakup of the U.S. at this moment in time really all that libertarian?
This question reminds me of the litmus test posited by the anarcho-capitalist economist Murray Rothbard, whose work has had a major influence on Smith and the current L.P. leadership: What if a button existed that would immediately abolish all government? A radical libertarian, Rothbard writes, would "blister his thumb pushing" it, while so-called gradualists—including fellow anarcho-capitalist theorist David Friedman, whose work Rothbard was critiquing in the essay, and many of us at Reason magazine—would hold back as we fretted over the unintended consequences.
Smith, who says he's a fan of the work of both Rothbard and Friedman, says he'd blister his thumb pushing the hypothetical button.
"I think why so many people are at the point of entertaining this idea of a national divorce is that the Constitution has already been disregarded," says Smith. "Give me an amendment to the Bill of Rights, and I'll tell you how the federal government has wildly violated it in every possible way you could imagine."
He's right that words written down on an old piece of paper aren't enough to protect our rights if politicians disregard them. But they do matter.
As Austrian Nobel Prize winner F.A. Hayek wrote, "the only safeguard" against creeping tyranny is "a clear awareness of the dangers" by the public. Having a written constitution that venerates individual rights makes "them part of a political creed which the people will defend even when they do not fully understand its significance."
Defending and improving institutions that emerged to meet precisely the challenge of safeguarding liberty—such as the courts, the media, think tanks, and advocacy organizations—was a major theme in Hayek's work.
"What we must learn to understand is that human civilization has a life of its own," he wrote, and that we must cautiously and humbly "aim at piecemeal, rather than total" reform to avoid the kinds of bloody and barbaric upheaval that ideologues of the 20th century inflicted on much of the world.
Does this cautious approach mean every government institution must be preserved? Of course not. What Hayek criticized in particular, and what libertarians should aim to abolish as quickly as possible, is the monopolization of services by the state.
"A free society demands not only that the government have the monopoly of coercion but that it have the monopoly only of coercion," Hayek wrote in The Constitution of Liberty. "In all other respects it [should] operate on the same terms as everybody else."
I'd like to see a libertarian president immediately shut down monopolistic federal agencies, end America's foreign military occupations, and for the Supreme Court to declare the modern administrative state unconstitutional.
Libertarians are and should be engaging in political struggle and pressuring courts however they can to protect Americans' liberties against all levels of government: federal, state, and local.
And the most effective method for increasing freedom is the use of technological tools that allow us to bypass the state altogether and extend the scope of the Bill of Rights: Print your own guns, communicate through encrypted services, build new worlds in cyberspace, and hold and transact in bitcoin, which the government can't censor or devalue.
In a reply to Rothbard, Friedman stressed the value of humility in politics, writing that "my arguments and [Rothbard's] could be wrong; some sort of government might be the least bad alternative among workable human institutions." Rothbard, on the other hand, was "certain he was right and viewed disagreement as war."
That's why I'm not a button-pusher like Rothbard or Smith: I need to know what comes after the collapse of the state. And we simply cannot know. Always proceed with caution in the face of uncertainty.
A dramatic national divorce—and the ensuing "total" reform that Hayek warned about—could lead to a more libertarian world, or it could lead to chaos and destroy the hard-won liberties that emerged from centuries of unplanned human effort.
It's a gamble. How lucky do you feel?
The Constitution isn't a holy text. It's not an all-powerful shield against government tyranny. But it is, as Frederick Douglass once put it "a glorious liberty document." For libertarians, it can be a weapon—quite a powerful one—in the arsenal needed to defend our liberties and decentralize power. Instead of tossing it aside, maybe the task is figuring out how better to wield it.
Watch my conversation with Smith in the video above.
Produced by Zach Weissmueller; editing and graphics by Regan Taylor
Photos: Jeff Malet/SIPA/Newscom; Jeff Malet Photography/Newscom; Monica Jorge/Sipa USA/Newscom; Ron Adar/M10s/MEGA/Newscom/RAAST/Newscom; Tom Williams/CQ Roll Call/Newscom; Stefani Reynolds/picture alliance/Consolidated News Photos/Newscom
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Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R–Ga.), along with many on the political right, says it’s time to seriously consider breaking the country apart.
Sarah Silverman proposed this a while back. Quite a while back.
And it wasn’t “the right” who (in general) serially proposes moving to Canada every time a democratic vote in the US doesn’t go their way.
Beginning of Trump era some Lefties were seriously talking about California seceding.
As much as I hate the Federal Government, such an idea would have me instantly moving to Nevada.
Remember how West Virginia became a state. Northern and Central California probably would not go with the rest of the new nation.
There has been talk here of splitting California up since, well, around 1849 or thereabouts.
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Yup plenty of “State of Jefferson” signs in EDC. I would hope we stay away from the SoCal lefties. Maybe join Nevada?
Freedom demands that America be obliterated.
Americans can never be free under the tyranny of rampant statism.
To do something about the immigration problem, we need to we need to bring an end to the welfare state and take away the benefits paid out just to be here.
Nobody would come here just to collect their benefits. Those who would come would be more likely to be productive members of society — just the kind of people we need.
IMMIGRATION – Libertarian Party Platform
We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.
We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new “Berlin Wall” which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government’s policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.
Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age, or sexual preference.
This is why I nor anyone I know will ever vote for a libertarian. If we truly implemented this idea we would have 10,000,000,000 people next month.
End of the nation.
No. It’s time to drive the progs out forever. Through any means necessary.
I don’t think that’s necessary. In fact, the most damaging thing you can do to them in regards to collapsing their support is to simply retweet what they say without commentary.
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The really dangerous ones need to go. The current situation is untenable.
Ted, what’s your definition of the really dangerous ones?
Soros and his pups, AOC, Jamie Raskin, Obama, etc.. the ones who actually have financial, political and public influence and a malignant Marxist agenda. The people who want to ‘fundamentally transform’ America. They need to go.
America needs to become very hostile to the left. This is a matter of survival.
American freedoms > prog lives
Cryin’ Ted.
Republicans are now outwardly removing rights and freedoms from the American people.
This will continue until American government is destroyed as a concept.
Freedom means freedom from government.
In early 2020, democrats used the coercive power of the state to forcibly shut down something like 75% of all economic activity and demanded that we all isolate ourselves from each other over a new flu-like variant, bringing America closer to a state of martial law than probably any time since the first World War.
Freedom does indeed mean from government, and 90 percent of government in this country is controlled by the center to the extreme far left.
Freedom means destruction of the left.
Yeah, ideological purges always work out great.
People need to stop putting up with progressive bullshit, or they get what they get. Paul is right, we just need to get people to realize how awful today’s progressives really are.
I don”t see either Trigglypuffs or Johnny Rebs getting their paws on NBC weapons or dealing with the shady characters needed to get them, so I don’t see national break-up happening.
I am glad someone else noticed that.
This isn’t even a “Republicans pounce” deflection…. this is just “ignore 90% of the conversation and pretend we started here”.
The progressives have a litany of talking points on this… stuff about all the money they send to the south, about how all the rednecks ruin the country with their insistence on gun rights and their religion. There is a solid 20 year history on this one.
But sure. Let’s start with Marjory Taylor Green… because she speaks for the majority of rhe right.
What they fail to understand is that individual states are made up by a mix of political affiliations and political beliefs.
To some degree, the cities tend to be more Democrat and the rural areas, more Republican. To break the country apart by political affiliation would just create a spiderweb of Democrat strongholds among a Republican countryside, not a country of divided contiguous areas.
That’s exactly right. As an example, the Big Blue State of California had more Trump supporters in 2020 than any five southern states combined.
“That’s exactly right. As an example, the Big Blue State of California had more Trump supporters in 2020 than any five southern states combined.”
Must be suing the new math. CA had just over six million but both FL and TX had 5.8 million Trump voters.
Love your handle. Sums up about 98% of the commentary on this crybaby, piece of shit site.
“A national divorce … could lead to a more libertarian world”
Note: not “a more libertarian America”.
Globalists really don’t a shit about America.
The bigger the political group the less likely for a civil society. We need personal, face-face interactions. When a group gets over 150, it becomes likely that de-humanization takes place, e.g., them-us divisions. It’s harder to be cruel/unfair when we have a connection.
The Libertarian Party (L.P.) has also been promoting this idea on Twitter since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade.
Is this the new, Trumpy McTrumpist Libertarian party?
The story is retarded leftist is retarded
This 10 month old site “unpopulism” is going to be my new awesome source of hilarity. it looks like it was created by the “just bake the damned cake already” aspy ponytail wing of libertarianism that is upset that a bunch of icky right-wingers have been more effective champions of free speech and liberty than they were.
I hope they’re all double masked, because shit’s about to get real.
aspy
Nobody true Aspie would recognize the subtle nuances of human sexual relations nor the need to have a cake in order to validate such relationships. These people are just dicks.
a bunch of icky right-wingers have been more effective champions of free speech and liberty than they were
Sure, free speech and liberty for them – yes, they’ve been effective champions of that.
Objection, cites facts not in evidence.
Please show me where the MC folk have been championing only for liberty for themselves, or that the “bake the damn cake” crowd have been more effective champions of liberty.
Here is Smith specifically talking with Nick about all these issues before the MC shocked all good-thinking, cake baking, libertarians:
https://reason.com/podcast/2021/07/28/dave-smith-libertarians-vs-big-tech-big-government-and-other-libertarians/?comments=true#comments
Where do you see him arguing for “Rights for me, not for thee”?
In his delusional tribalist mind.
I’m not talking about Smith or the Mises Caucus. I’m talking about actual right-wingers, the ones who demand the freedom to say crap on Twitter but then also demand the power to throw people in jail for telling women where to get an abortion.
So more imagined tribalism as you claim none lol.
“I’m not talking about Smith or the Mises Caucus. ”
So you are changing the subject and convoluting different stuff to score a rhetorical point? Typical.
Diane said “icky right-wingers”. So I referred to icky right-wingers. Not libertarians.
Because that is the complaint that these “Bake the cake” libertarians have made about the MC- that they are merely a bunch of right-wingers.
It’s what Pedo Jeffy does. He is truly a loathsome creature. He’s also tubby.
demand the power to throw people in jail for telling women where to get an abortion.
They should also throw people in jail for helping plan rapes and school shootings.
This is why we need a divorce. On this and many other situations we have a difference so vast that ultimately we will kill over it. People have died over this already. Over 63 million killed already.
Its a child not a choice.
Oh and I see Jesse has responded. He’s now a gray box again. I’m just so thoroughly tired of his antics.
Awwww. Tired of your infantile authoritarianism being dissected?
Sarcasmic level mute list boasting, but unlike Jeff, sarcasmic wasn’t a paid shill. It takes a lot of chutzpah for a fifty-center like Jeff to pretend that Jesse’s the shitposter and not him.
But you want to know the real reason chemleft’s blocking Jesse?
Because he constantly loses debates and arguments with him. It’s easier for Jeff to pretend Jesse is muted than to constantly lose arguments.
This weekend was an hilarious example of him losing his shit and me not letting him retreat into changing the argument he is losing.
He’s pouting again. Probably elbows deep into a drum of Haagen Das.
Jeffy, you’re just upset DeSantis wouldn’t let your pedophile friends groom little kids. That’s the ‘free speech’ YOU want.
Hadn’t seen that site before, but it is pretty hilarious. They actually have an article titled “How to Lose an Election Gracefully” featuring Al Gore. I guess they forgot the lawsuits, the recounts, the SC decision, and the years of “selected not elected” that followed.
They didn’t forget but they sure hoped we did.
Wow, the level of self-delusion is just amazing, particularly given what a nasty, elitist, ignorant authoritarian Shikha actually is.
Then again, you’re the guy who thinks that the government defending rights is communism.
Phony rights like the alphabet sex cult’s right to castrate children? You fucking bet.
Your definition of rights is utter crap.
The Faux-Anarchist wing has taken over, and they want to smash the state (except for immigration controls) and the see the Great Divorce as a way to start burning it down.
Good luck winning an election when your first policy proposal is to abolish the Federal Government. It gives chubbies to anarchists, but not at all realistic.
You mean the pro liberty wing. Not the slight resistance to the left anti racist bake the cake wing.
Here comes Brandy again to tell us all what the MC people really believe. Now instead of being closet racists, they are in Faux Anarchists.
“Good luck winning an election when your first policy proposal…”
Let us note (again) that this is Brandy’s schtick when it comes to the Mises Caucus. Brandy will argue that being dogmatic libertarians is no way to make broad support. And then a few comments later, Brandy will argue that the MC has sold out ideals to compromise with people who lean right. This particular style of concern trolling lets Brandy have it both ways.
They were never closet racist. They were openly racist. See how Dave Smith was in a conference that also had scheduled Nick Fuentes.
Think I got the talking point down.
Dave Smith was on a podcast a while back arguing that racism doesn’t violate libertarian principles.
It doesn’t violate libertarian principles. Libertatianism requires letting people act differently. It is when you imbed racism into a government structure it violates it. Not just believing something.
If you truly think government should be the arbiter of behaviors and thought, you’re not a libertarian.
And in what world do you think this means they are closet racists?
Even if something they advocate is realistic, they are all assholes and believe that Dale Carnegie is a commie.
” they are all assholes and believe that ”
Catch that everyone? JFree himself has personally peered into the souls of the ENTIRE Mises Caucus and has- in his very reasoned and thoughtful analysis- determined that they are *all* assholes.
Between Brandy, Chemjeff, and Jfree one wonders why anyone would need to consider any viewpoint (or proprietor thereof) at all. Indeed any argument that could be made is irrelevant unless they are the correct people.
The results were clear and consistent. Moderates and conservatives were most accurate in their predictions, whether they were pretending to be liberals or conservatives. Liberals were the least accurate, especially those who described themselves as “very liberal.” The biggest errors in the whole study came when liberals answered the Care and Fairness questions while pretending to be conservatives. When faced with questions such as “One of the worst things a person could do is hurt a defenseless animal” or ”Justice is the most important requirement for a society,” liberals assumed that conservatives would disagree. If you have a moral matrix built primarily on intuitions about care and fairness (as equality), and you listen to the Reagan [i.e., conservative] narrative, what else could you think? Reagan seems completely unconcerned about the welfare of drug addicts, poor people, and gay people. He’s more interested in fighting wars and telling people how to run their sex lives.
https://theindependentwhig.com/haidt-passages/haidt/conservatives-understand-liberals-better-than-liberals-understand-conservatives/
“Indeed any argument that could be made is irrelevant unless they are the correct people.”
This is at the bottom of everything Jeff has ever written here.
They’ll have as much luck winning elections as the previous LP shitshow.
The difference is that, unlike the old LP, they won’t give libertarianism a bad name in the process.
We don’t need to get rid of the federal government. Just cleanse it of leftists and then reduce it by a good margin.
LP has no chance anyway. Might as well go all the way.
Your right the country is more diverse than states. We will give the d’s NY, LA, sf, Portland, Seattle, Chicago, Austin, DC, and miniapolis.
Teriffs on food going to these places will be pegged at 1000%
#long live the Oxford comma!
I’m willing to give the left one of those pacific islands where we tested nukes back in the 50’s. They can all go there. Or stay and be relocated to landfills.
But these are area of significant wealth and they could simple buy food from Canada, Central and South America. Remember that buyer and sellers are linked, they are not independent.
I would much prefer to eat pork bellies than try to survive on pork belly futures, even though the greater wealth is generated down the production line.
So you have no problem with my proposal?
No
They have wealth as either centers of government or finance, with some remaining core of tech and entertainment.
Wanna bet that in a divorced nation we would (1) not send them our tax dollars, (2) redirect financial monies to new centers, (3) either trade with them for tech, or start new hubs, and (4) pretty much ignore or even boycott the ideological entertainment they produce.
First as has been pointed out numerus times in Reason, red states typically get more tax money than they pay in. So, these centers are not likely to lose tax money. They don’t have to trade and as with food can chose new trading partners. Same with finance, these are population centers and have more than enough people to support finance.
Meanwhile rural areas will have to sell undeveloped resources much like third world countries.
You mean the study created by a Kansas undergrad that didn’t do normal expected things like remove SS since retirees move to cheaper red states?
“they could simple buy food from Canada”
Hate break it to you but most of Canada’s food producing regions hate urban elites more than any Oklahoman.
There’s a reason Trudeau shit his drawers back in February.
If the US breaks up Canada is almost guaranteed to follow.
Maybe you can order your food from the Netherlands or Ukraine… oh wait.
How dumb do you have to be to think that splitting the country into red and blue areas would be economically advantageous to the red areas? That’s where the poverty is, dawg.
Lol. Wow. Look at southern California dummy.
You kind if need forms for food dumbass. NYC can’t subsist on its own merits. Bumfuck Iowa can.
I think this really calls for a return to serious federalism.
Like letting the states decide their own rules on abortion?
Yes.
What if abortion is a right? You’re ok with a state violating the rights of half the population?
It’s not.
Is it found in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? If not, then it isn’t a “right” in any legal sense.
And in a practical sense, if another state wants to ban abortions or gay marriage, that matters less than if Iran does, since people living in other US states can simply vote with your feet.
How about you? Are you willing to go to war with Iran or the Vatican over their abortion laws?
So infanticide is a right?
Youre part of the mises caucus now.
https://mises.org/wire/federalism-not-centralization-way-out-current-conflicts
Federalism is the correct answer. Part of freedom means letting communities become abusive of they want but are in agreement to do so, at the smallest possible level possible.
All purely ideal systems require authoritarianism as they require everyone to think the same.
Federalism allows for a commune based society for people who wish to live in that environment.
But government has to allow the freedom to travel and escape areas that one disagrees with, which is why decisions need to pushed down to smaller areas of concern. Ie federalism.
Part of freedom means letting communities become abusive of they want
I’m gonna save that one.
Why? Because it is true?
If a group willingly decides to do things together who are you to stop them.
Again you prove your anti liberty positions. You want to force others to have your moral structure instead if their agreed to structure.
Not sure what you think you have here.
If the Amish community decides to use stocks as a form of punishment and the community agrees to it, that is their decision. That is part of liberty, allowing people to think differently than you moron. Instead of your forced moral structure on everyone. You support authoritarianism though, so see why you’re confused by that concept.
Don’t the Amish literally do the handmaid thing?
Are you kidding? Membership in the Amish community is not only voluntary, it is conditional on your proper behavior.
Concerts are rare, and the Amish are selective.
No. That’s a great way to get shunned.
There’s a group distantly related to the Amish called the Hutterites and a similar Russian group called the Doukhobors, that were rumored to do that to introduce fresh blood, but it’s not actually a true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doukhobors
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites
OK, as long as any individual can opt out. The smallest possible level is the individual.
I’ll even add that the shir you’ve defended here for years is abusive behavior. From masks to cutting off dicks to grooming kids.
I’m against all those things. Forcing people into shut downs is abusive. But if a city and community agreed to those terms, that is on them. I’m an outsider to the community. If my community agreed to it I would leave.
See unlike you. I wouldn’t force my views on everyone else. That’s why you advocate for national and global rules. Look how enraged you got this weekend that a school board voted against a text book.
That’s the thing about federalism. It provides options. Something you seemingly despise.
He’s always for whatever gets children raped. Always.
Yes. Central government can do borders, currency and military and maintain free trade and movement among states. Everything else to the states.
And the most effective method for increasing freedom is the use of technological tools that allow us to bypass the state altogether and extend the scope of the Bill of Rights: Print your own guns, communicate through encrypted services, build new worlds in cyberspace, and hold and transact in bitcoin, which the government can’t censor or devalue.
You’re kidding, right?
It pisses me off that he says this below that:
The Constitution isn’t a holy text. It’s not an all-powerful shield against government tyranny. But it is, as Frederick Douglass once put it “a glorious liberty document.” For libertarians, it can be a weapon—quite a powerful one—in the arsenal needed to defend our liberties and decentralize power. Instead of tossing it aside, maybe the task is figuring out how better to wield it.
You can’t say that the goal is to just ignore laws you don’t like and then claim the Constitution means something. There’s so many places here I feel like I’m seeing Reason’s general worldview contradicting itself.
This comment:
Is trampling on individual rights more legitimate when a state or city government does it?
Is similarly one that should not be left as a rhetorical question. There’s depth here, and Reason ignores it all the time as they tend to prefer action at the highest level possible as long as they agree with the stated purpose of said action. Shit, this article claims to care about gradualism, but doesn’t really support it except that they view themselves as gradualists vs. the Mises Caucus. I don’t even know if that’s accurate to the Mises Caucus but that’s the best explanation I can find for Reason describing themselves that way.
Which sucks, because I actually AM a gradualist and think slowly moving institutions in directions is how you build up better institutions and connections that allow for freedom.
Let me sum it up,
Reason spent a lot of time and energy backing blm and social justice aspects along with all of the linos, jos getting the presidential nominee in the lp was the last straw where all the real libritarians said they were going back to libritarian principles.
Which is why you see the people at reason make the claim “mises caucas isn’t libritarian because they support closed borders” and the real story was “mises caucus said they opposed open boarders so long as there is a welfare state. If the goverment is going to give material support to immigrants then there should be limits on the number you let in.”
The second is a more nuanced take, and far more libritarian with acknowledging the scarcity of resources, but it goes against reasons narrarative.
Exactly! It’s simple economics that obviously these ‘highly educated writers still don’t get. This is why all these universities, that are extreme left, produce fools that are ruining our democracy and country. We can’t take care of the world. Here it is Reason, and others who fell asleep in economics, there is a limited amount of goods for a limited amount of people! It’s called scarcity! Get it? Also, please pay attention to civics. The bigger the government, the smaller the people! This is why we are having states like California, New York, and others that are killing our budget. The cost of living is getting ridiculous!
“mises caucus said they opposed open boarders so long as there is a welfare state. If the goverment is going to give material support to immigrants then there should be limits on the number you let in.”
And yet they never seem to be able to respond to the substantive arguments against that position, to wit:
1. It’s an empty commitment – they might as well say “we oppose open borders as long as pigs aren’t flying”. There is going to be a welfare state for the foreseeable future.
2. Since native-born citizens consume far more welfare than immigrants, using welfare as an excuse for not permitting more immigration is just scapegoating the immigrants. If they spent half as much energy trying to actually reduce or eliminate the welfare state that native-born citizens use, as they do bitching about the border, then maybe we’d get somewhere.
We get it jeff. You aren’t honest enough to take people for their clear and forward arguments. You have to impart some immoral aspect to it so you can think them evil.
Not going to unmute him but I assume he strawman Ed what I said or compleatly changed the context
He muted me again. Lol.
But yes he did. He basically said their words don’t matter because it was dishonest despite their statements being clear and logical.
The clear and logical was probably the part that lost him.
He’s also telegraphing his open borders obsession.
The problem is institutions are already too big. Why do you think trump is now running on firing the federal bureaucracy? That’s his campaign plan and it will win over a lot of voters. D.C. is too fucking big. Moving them isn’t a possibility when 90% of them are democrats. They openly formed a resistance for 4 years. Gradually moving them isnt a possibility at this point.
The problem is too few institutions and the idea that institutions necessarily means government. We need more Moose’s Lodges and less Executive Departments.
And, of course, the hard question is how do we get there? We can dissolve institutions, but people WANT them. They bitch about them, but vote for more. They also, on average, are less and less inclined to go out and join a church, charity, club, whatever and actually build that community that is so essential to fight tyranny.
I think you’re less gradualist than you think. Undoing d.c. and their monoculture isn’t a gradualist approach. The entire defense of these institutions is long term expertise in these institutions. So dissolving them is a huge act.
People are less likely to join churches or civic organizations and build community BECAUSE there is such a huge bureaucracy. Why join a civic organization when there’s a government agency that already does whatever it is the organization says it does?
People don’t necessarily like the agencies. They like what the agencies do or provide. Take away the agency, and they will want to fill that need somehow. Needs got met before the all-consuming welfare state. And people in remote and rural communities without easy access to the government programs fill those needs somehow.
Most people today like the agencies because they don’t know any different. When the agencies are hollowed out, I imagine they will find civic or community organizations much better. And those who don’t are free to vote with their feet and go live somewhere with more government involvement.
Personal vendetta.
That Trump is mostly motivated by spite and greed isn’t hidden at all, I don’t know why some folks pretend he’s got principles buried anywhere.
It is also noteworthy that Weissmueller is trying to have it both ways. I am not certain if he actually talked to any of these people, or if he is reviewing other peoples’ footage. But at times he is making arguments against a National Divorce, and then trying to get David Smith to defend that argument, when his argument seems to be dissolving the Federal Government (which is different from the nation splitting into two Federal Governments). And then he tries to mix this with Rothbard’s entirely theoretical arguments about NO government.
So it isn’t really even clear what Weissmueller is arguing against. He goes on and on about how important institutions like the Constitution are, but that really is only relevant if you are talking about complete anarchy- a position that David Smith and the National Divorcers don’t seem to be endorsing. Most of the actual quotes from Smith are about the Federal government, not going full anarchist.
But even worse, Weismueller is committing a very amateurish debate tactic where he declines to defend the Status Quo, while holding his debate opponents accountable for their specific position. Weissmueller writes about these important institutions that must be preserved- except for the “Monopolistic” institutions, which should be jettisoned. So instead of a debate of “National Divorce” vs “Status Quo”, he has rendered this down to “Cherrypicked cons of a Divorce, Disolving the Federal Government, and a hypothetical anarchy button” vs “Zach’s Dream of a Properly Constrained Federal Government that he won’t give specifics on”.
This is a pretty rhetorical fantasy that Weissmueller has created. He gets to talk about all the downsides of a divorce (or disolving the federal gov. Or anarchy) while never having to defend the downsides of the existing system. Because if David Smith would just abandon his anger at the Federal Government, we could just get on with reducing it to its enumerated powers- a thing that I guess no one ever thought of in the past 50 years.
After several of these articles, now, it is pretty clear that Weissmueller really doesn’t like the MC people. That’s fine, but he needs to understand that this is not enough. Because they seem to be the only ones actually willing to put together an argument for advancing liberty, while he is still playing Goldilocks deciding which bear is Just Right to eat him.
I come to Reason for the comments.
THIS!
Yeah, I found the notion of “What if TX decides to start violating the 1A? What if CA decides to start violating the 2A?” to be a non-sequitur and being argued in bad faith. If a state were dragging Jews into the street, shooting them, and burning their books, A Constitution isn’t going to make them suddenly realize Jews are people and they should stop. This is especially egregious in light of the actual reality and horse trading that’s going on, that is, TX infringing on 3M primary schoolers’ right to access sexy books *in school* is not substantially equivalent to CA infringing on 30 CA resident’s right to own a gun. The argument that “What if they both become totalitarian regimes?” should, IMO, wholly cede the divorce argument and ignores the idea of equal protection.
CA infringing on 30 CA resident’s right to own a gun
Ugh, CA infringing on *30M* CA *residents’* right…
It still works with 30.
I don’t think he’s saying to ignore laws you don’t like. He’s saying that the Constitution isn’t perfect at protecting rights.
He says it here:
And the most effective method for increasing freedom is the use of technological tools that allow us to bypass the state altogether and extend the scope of the Bill of Rights: Print your own guns, communicate through encrypted services, build new worlds in cyberspace, and hold and transact in bitcoin, which the government can’t censor or devalue.
That technology is an important stopgap against tyranny. But pursuing it as a means to avoid the law tends to lead to proliferation of more laws. That’s a very real scenario we find ourselves in now. We have a huge amount of laws, often arbitrarily enforced, which has led to calls for more and more laws rather than using the tools that already exist. This produces a system in which anyone can be called for something if they get on the wrong list.
It’s funny that they seem to grasp the orthogonality of liberty to progressivism and conservatism but not the orthogonality of liberty and technology. Every technology and virtually every prominent technologist all the way back to lapped stone knives has lamented “It’s not the technology, it’s the wielder.” but, somehow, Reason is sure that everyone invents everything because they only have unfettered good in their hearts and nobody can regulate that away.
There are no technological tools that can be used to figure out how you spend your day and to modify that day-spending exercise.
Harken to the words of the Declaration: …to preserve these rights, governments are instituted among men… The government’s duty is to preserve rights, not to make anyones’ lives better. That’s a job for people and civil society.
And that is the fundamental difference between liberals and others. Liberals believe with conviction that people’s lives should be made better by having smart people use force to make us help out others.
Positive versus negative rights.
Decentralization of government is a tactic, not a goal. The goal is to reduce the size and scope of government at ALL levels, just not the national level.
Just as the states are supposed to act as a check on the Federal government, so too is the Federal government to be a check on the states. That’s why the US Constitution has provisions that apply to the states. This was clarified with the 14th amendment that protects basic rights regardless of state.
As someone who lives in California, the idea of my state unfetter by limits imposed by the national government scares the shit out of me. California would inflate its currency if it could, but the US Constitution says it can’t. California is also threatening to tax people who LEAVE the state. The US Constitution says it’s can’t.
So yeah, I want California to be restricted by the US Constitution. I know it’s mostly ignored, but let’s not toss it out because Dave Smith is unable to cope. When we get closer to an actual minarchy and the possibility of a working anarchy, we can talk. Until then I wants checks on state and local governments.
the difference is you can leave california for utah if you want.
much easier than leaving the USA for what? there’s no good place to go.
You can leave now but what if Ut and Ca were different countries and you needed a visa.
Judge which way the wind is blowing and get there before it does.
That’s fine with me. But the constitution does check the states. I think that’s fine, as long as we also have a relatively restrained view of what the constitution allows, and what role the federal government does have.
Leaving one’s home is not as quick and simple as you make it out to be. In fact, it’s as easy for me to move to Canada as it is to move to Nevada.
you are dishonest or very stupid. How is renting a condo in Las Vegas and moving in over a weekend compare to a visa/immigration application process? GFY
Brandyfuck is both dishonest and very stupid. Dangerous combination.
Sure, that makes local tyranny less bad, but it’s still bad.
A peaceful national divorce would be great. You communists can do your thing in NJ and CA and the rest of us can congregate in Montana FL, TX and UT etc.
A VIOLENT national divorce would be a nightmare of epic proportions, a history making catastrophe. For reference, see first American Civil War
I think it would pan out way more like the Spanish Civil War or perhaps the English Civil Wars. Neighbor vs. Neighbor shit, with dictators taking the reigns to add some sort of cohesion to disparate groups. And with foreign powers backing sides and potentially hopping in if it doesn’t go the way they like.
A national divorce in the US would rapidly turn into violent ideological cleansing. A large number of commenters here who advocate that in this thread continually advocate violence against those who disagree with them.
And it is a fucking evil joke for Libertarians to advocate this stuff. They can’t get elected to any office. They don’t advocate any real reform below the federal level. Even if they were to be elected to some office to reform/overhaul something, their basic competence is a serious question. But hey – what could possibly go wrong with a revolution and civilwar. Blub blub blub
Like advocating hospitals to turn away the unvaccinated?
Jfree sees its dream of Soviet America being threatened, and lashes out
You’re a leftist. You have no business criticizing anyone.
“As Austrian Nobel Prize winner F.A. Hayek wrote, “the only safeguard” against creeping tyranny is “a clear awareness of the dangers” by the public. Having a written constitution that venerates individual rights makes “them part of a political creed which the people will defend even when they do not fully understand its significance.””
Weissmuller trots out this quote as an argument FOR the preservation of the Federal Government. But I don’t understand why. Most states have their own constitutions, in case he didn’t know. And by rendering more decisions to the states, we encourage exactly what Hayek wanted- a clear awareness of the dangers.
It is difficult to truly fathom how out of control our government is when it is 3000 miles away. When the capital is less than 200 miles away, its faults and successes become that much more transparent to anyone willing to look.
Marjorie Traitor Greene is merely going along with what many entitled white right-wingers think, which is that if they can’t retain their privilege and entitlement, they don’t want to stay.
Lol. I do love when people characterize their opponents based on talking points.
Not even a supporter of her but she is doing useful things like ending voice votes by staff and forcing actual votes.
There is a great deal of entitlement among right-wingers. See: Josh Hawley’s position that only his type of people should count as having ‘legitimate’ American values.
More tribalism from Jeff.
You certainly don’t have American values, you totalitarian pedophile
Literally nobody isn’t clued in that you rightwingers project. So maybe go easy on the pedophile accusations. You wouldn’t want anyone to stop inviting you around, just in case.
The totalitarianism is assumed, I suppose.
Why not? Your kind value child molestation and child gentian mutilation. Is it any surprise that real humans consider themselves morally superior to you progs?
And she also displays herself to be an ignorant racist and a supporter of Russia.
Citations? Being against spending billions in the Ukraine isn’t being pro russia.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3485384-here-are-the-two-republicans-who-voted-against-four-bills-related-to-the-russia-ukraine-conflict/
That doesn’t prove anything Kiddie Raper. Except she didn’t approve of that spending bill.
It doesn’t prove, no, but it certainly is evidence. You asked for citations and I provided one.
Not that you care about evidence.
Is that why your side always threatens to move to Canada when it loses?
The really funny part is to look up the conditions for emigrating to Canada and realizing how many of them wouldn’t be allowed in.
You’re raving. And you’re confused about who will be leaving.
Yes, that’s certainly what I thought when I emigrated from the last socialist sh*thole, run by jerks like you.
See, the thing is: despite your racism, your authoritarianism, and your ignorance, you’ll sooner or later figure out that your ideology fails because you can’t realistically enslave people anymore, much as you would like to.
The history of the US has shown that often enough it is the Federal government that has stepped in to protect citizens’ rights against incursions on those rights by state governments.
But there are always people who think that if the Feds stop the state governments infringing on the rights of “those people”, it’s the Feds who are the tyrants, not the states.
Should Libertarians Root for a National Divorce?
The cucked ones can root for a live-in separation situation all they like.
I think that’s throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Yeah, sticking together for the kids never produces any bad long term outcomes.
The interview has convinced me that even if the #nationaldivorce isn’t a good policy, it’s still a fantastic analogy. If you’re at the point where you’re trying to talk your partner into staying and not aborting the baby or staying and so you won’t abort the baby, yeah, the divorce has already happened. You’re just work out which differences are reconcilable and which ones aren’t.
Whoops, above not meant in reply.
My favorite example of “lefty threatens to leave america for not being liberal enough” was the Green Day guy renouncing citizienship and moving to Europe over abortion laws…. where most Europeans live under more restrictive abortion laws than most americans.
What a dumbass.
“Billie Joe Armstrong has announced he will no longer be an American idiot and will instead just be a regular idiot.” – The Babylon Bee
Not a Bee reader, but that is damn funny! 🙂
Many democrat run states are certainly infringing on the right of their citizens. That is certainly true. When the current illegitimate administration is removed than this can finally be dealt with. Then we can set upon the task of removing the left.
The current admin is not illegitimate. As far as removing the left, that does show you don’t give a shit about the Constitution.
It’s the only way to save it from you progs. Removing Marxist traitors is a patriotic duty. Just like in the old days. A commie pedophile like you should ideally fear for its life every day.
What a stupid little man you are.
You won’t set upon anything but your disgusting recliner. You want other people to do your dirty work.
Go on, if the true and good thing to do is murder your political opponents, why don’t you go murder some? Afraid of the consequences? Then don’t be a revolutionary.
what we need is a divorce with the Ruling Class. drain the swamp.
Execute them, and their owners. Like Soros and his pups. They’re all guilty of high treason.
The sad part is that state boundaries encase extremely totalitarian cities and individual liberty loving country. All this peaceful secession stuff needs to come up with a way to facilitate mass relocations.
A solution would be to surround leftist cities and starve them out.
Just let everyone pick their own government without moving, like you pick your own bank, credit card, insurance company, etc., and pay taxes and get benefits based on which government you choose.
If you get into a dispute with someone from the same government, you go to your courts. If you get into a dispute with someone from another government, you go to the victim’s court. If there’s no victim, why is it a matter for any court?
Uh, who decides who’s the victim? If I pay you half up front to do a job, you do it, and I say you did a shitty job and refuse to pay the other half, who’s the victim? Can governments excommunicate or disavow people? Can they, then, ever be a victim?
Right, because conservatives have ever been persuaded by “if you don’t like abortion/miscegenation/gay sex, don’t get an abortion/enter a mixed-marriage/have gay sex”.
If the LP can’t do any better than a “comedian and podcast host” for a Presidential candidate, we are doomed. I worked 40 years in various party offices for this? It was a steep decline from Gary Johnson to Jo “The Librarian” Jorgenson, but down to a comedian and podcast host would be even worse.
Which of his ideas do you actually disagree with? He is well versed with Mises, Rothbard, Freidman and others. Do you require your preferred candidate to be a poli sci major or something?
And Gary Johnson is not something to aspire to. He ran terrible campaigns. The LP needs to shoot lower and work on getting a few party members into the House. Then maybe a senator down the line. That would make more people take the LP seriously.
We’ve heard that for the past 40 years. But only a national Presidential campaign gets any media coverage at all, or has any chance to bring new people into the party.
50 years, such a remarkable record of success.
Better keep doing the same thing!
But they keep focusing on presidential runs that go nowhere. Flip some House districts and go from there. This isn’t 1985. Attention from fading traditional media is no longer necessary. That would be fr more useful than the usual freakshow where kooks like MacAfee turn the LP into the equivalent of a gory auto wreck, instead of a serious political movement.
Also, isn’t the whole point of the never-Trump portion of the LP to stick to the numbers and avoid cults of personality? If you put The Man With No Name up as the party candidate and he raises as much money as Jo, gets as much of the popular vote as Jo, and gets the same number of electoral votes as Jo, doesn’t that provide a lot of valuable information to the people looking to avoid cults of personality?
Jo Jorgenson didn’t just pop up in the LP in 2020. She was Marrou’s running mate in 1992, so was a long time known quantity in the LP.
Was she not better than those others seeking the nomination in 2020 – such as guy with boot on his head, and guy who advocated abolishing social security immediately. Yeah, lots of people would love John Stossel to run, so go try to persuade him.
She endorsed racial marxism.
Decades ago, Walter Williams was asked if he would consider running as the LP presidential candidate. He responded that he’d consider it if they would only “stop masturbating in public.”
The LP will never win a presidential election. But the LP could actually advocate usefully for libertarianism.
I actually emailed her campaign over that statement and their responses were even worse than the original response.
The world would be better if no country were larger than ~100,000,000 people and people were free to move between countries, without paying taxes to their former country. So yes, America should become at least 3 countries, China 10, and India 10, etc..
This greatly reduces the concentration of power and potential evil any country can inflict.
I think noise is what is creating the problem. This crazy Greene lady and that Bobert lady sound just like AOC and the fake Indian lady from Massachusetts. Shaking their fists at anyone who disagrees and screaming drivel. Noise. Compromise is what is needed. We all, including Libertarians, need to realize that we aren’t going to get everything we want politically, socially and economically but we can get some of we can all just agree to compromise. When the first thing that you think is that the other side is stupid or evil, how can you ever compromise? Both extremes are inflexible. The far left is rapidly becoming more intolerant and the far right is rapidly becoming more inflexible. Splitting the country won’t work. Middle America needs the economic engine created by the coastal left. And the coastal left needs the resources that more conservative states provide.
No they don’t. They’re not IQ challenged Marxist idiots.
How about if we split into 50 countries and then develop a treaty between all of those countries so that we can still enable commerce between countries, agree on basics rights and share in a common defense? Would that solve this problem? Sorry if I’m not the first one to propose this idea.
No. Just get rid of the left.
Some white slave owners had that idea a while ago, so it isn’t acceptable. ????
Other than that, it sounds like a great idea!
You do realize “agree on basics rights” is one of the rather big sticking points, yes?
National Divorce sounds like Brexit- hence a Russian Operation kooked up by Putin and his team. Greene is clearly a Russian useful idiot or worse a willing accomplice. Trump, Trumpisim and Jan 6th and all this National Divorce talk is Russian revenge for the Break up of the Soviet Union. So not dignify it Reason.com. It’s National Suicide.
Agree here. The problem of splitting up far outweigh the problem of staying together.
Indeed. That’s why a national divorce won’t happen. Maybe if people woke up and realized how much the government and the media has invested in pitting American against American, talk of a national divorce would stop. Got news for you…if the government and media weren’t constantly stirring up shit, the vast, vast majority of Americans would get along just fine. People work together, live together, do business together. That’s the reality. Start voting people out, stop consuming the mainstream media. Use your brains and think.
The solution is to wipe out the left. Start with expatriation, then eliminate any resistance.
LOL!
I agree it’s a bad idea.
I also think that we need a constitutional amendment that outlines how a state can secede from the union peacefully. Preferrably it would require two super-majority popular votes in the state attempting to secede, to coincide with two presidential elections to ensure that (A) it is over serious long-term issues, and not an act of fleeting high-spirits, and (B) that to ameliorate the “I only want to secede if my guy loses” impulse (that is, if you only want to secede if your guy loses, are you going to vote to secede at the same time as you vote for your guy? If so, you probably shouldn’t be seceding. You should only secede over long-standing grievances that *cannot* be settled by “your guy” winning.)
This amendment should inclusion provisions, similar to the European Union, for what the “default” leaving agreement is (that would include things like share of national debt, dispostion of federal land, and so-on) that will be in force if the state and the fed cannot reach a mutual agreement prior to some default date (possibility of extensions if both parties agree to and so-on).
So basically, there should be rules for “divorce” that isn’t easy, but can be used if there is a serious enough conflict, with default splits of responsibility, debt and property, but leaving room for negotiations.
Just as I hope I never have to use divorce court in my own marriage, I hope no state would use these provisions. But just as I want divorce court to be there if I ever do need it, I want these provisions to be there in case we do.
The best thing that a nation divorce would do. It would force the conversation away from the democrats decrying the ‘far right’ boogeyman, and the same the republicans don’t get to point to ‘extreme left wing nutjobs’ and instead they would have to address actual policy towards the needs of their constituents.
Sooner the better…
Let us not forget that in 2020, the Libertarian candiadtes peeled away just enough votes in Georgia that the 2 senate seats were forced into a run-off. Democrats engaged their machine big time and the 2 democrat senate candidates won in the runoff – giving Joe the Senate and allowing him to set the legislative agenda. Had Manchin not held the line; everything Joe dreams of would have passed in both houses of congress
You know who also helped get 2 Democratic Senators elected from Georgia? Trump. Because he couldn’t shut up about “stolen election” so a lot of Republican voters naturally concluded that it was pointless for them to vote anyway.
Cite?
They still pretend Trump didn’t endorse or campaign for the two gop candidates
I’m curious if the vote turnout for the runoff was significantly lesser than the original. You’d have to compare to other runoffs in presidential election years, but I imagine that data is available.
I suspect that – like “Trump just turned off too many voters” narrative that’s completely inconsistent with the 20% increase in Trump’s performance – this is another narrative that’s contradicted by the facts of the matter, but it is possibly true.
I obviously don’t care enough to look the numbers up myself though.
Like, what would demonstrate an actual effect?
If R candidates received roughly 4m votes in the original election, did they only receive 3.6m in the runoff? And if so, is that 10% decline attributable to something beyond the normal difference between main vs runoff elections?
And if a significant effect is found, what threshold are we setting to say it was determinative?
As if every LP voter was really a Republican.
2 white men debate whether or not it’s good to start Civil War II
I’m guessing that sounded a lot better in Your head.
All this talk of “national divorce” or “civil war” is overinflated emoting.
Truth of the matter is, from about the 1950s to the 1990s or so, this country has had an unusually strong sense of ideological cohesion. Perhaps it was the struggle against communism or perhaps it was just the overwhelming cultural influence of the baby boomers, who knows. But that has ended, and we are now reverting back to the norm in American history of polarization and division. After all, from 1865 to 1900, three American presidents were assassinated! And who knows how many Senators or Governors. When that type of shit happens in third world countries we call them banana republics or failed states. But that happened here, and yet here we are. Things have been a lot worse in the past, things could be a lot worse now, so let’s not lose our shit.
And besides, a “national divorce”/”civil war” wouldn’t solve the real problem, which is a lack of commitment to the concept of pluralism. Basically, when the other team wins, they get to run things for a while as a *legitimate exercise of their power*. If people still don’t accept the requirements of pluralism, a national divorce wouldn’t change that, it would just make the fights more local. In a supposed Red States of America, there will be conflict between people who want to ban abortion at 15 weeks, vs. people who want to ban abortion anytime after conception. How are they going to resolve their issue if they fundamentally don’t tolerate the other team even having a legitimate claim to power when they win?
The key to a peaceful, prosperous nation is to divest ourselves of you leftists. The progressive movement has no right to exist here. It’s entire existence is collective treason.
He’s not even correct on his timeline. From about 1940 to 1970, sure.
The New Left’s ascendancy in the cultural mainstream has been an absolute disaster in regards to maintaining cohesion, because they only operate on the principle of a bunch of disparate identity groups going after white people.
Countries that maintain a strong right-wing slant tend not to be too successful at the peaceful prosperous thing either.
Amen! One-party states in general do NOT work well!
Spain and Chile would like to have a word with you.
‘Right wing’ has very different definitions in places like Europe. As usual, you showcase your ignorance.
Hey Ted you admirer of one-party strongmen nations!
WHEN are you going to give us an example of a 1-party state that led to long-term peace and prosperity? Since you SOOO clearly advocate for a 1-party “R”-party state?
An observation on your observance of the1950s to 1990s:
This is the time period when the “Greatest Generation” held sway.
That entire generation went through WWII, with most of the men having experienced a term of Military Service and the women on the home front having had the Rosie The Riveter experience of being in the work force, a highly regimented work force bending nearly all of its efforts to the necessities of War Production.
That shared experience built “ideological cohesion”. No generation since has had an experience similar enough to build a similar response.
Truth of the matter is, from about the 1950s to the 1990s or so, this country has had an unusually strong sense of ideological cohesion.
What a white, privileged thing to say.
“unusually strong” is not the same as “unanimity”
What a white, privileged thing to say.
Everyone knew their place. People who could barely graduate kindergarten didn’t try to run the government, for example.
Yes, the current illegitimate administration has shown that doesn’t work.
And besides, a “national divorce”/”civil war” wouldn’t solve the real problem, which is a lack of commitment to the concept of pluralism.
Pluralism is no requirement for any civilization.
As I told you, if you accept one man one vote and free association, then pluralism is as valid as majoritarian.
It is if you want coexistence without constant warfare.
Gee, I can’t think of any major social discord that happened between the 1950s and 1990s. Nope, can’t think of any.
I think that talk of a national separation is just talk. There is no easy way to split the country. The separation of the Confederate states was driven by the wealthy slave owners who saw separation as a way to maintain slavery. The opinions of the poor did not play into that decision. There is no real wealth behind the idea of separation today. Nothing for the wealthiest to gain by separation. People like MT Greene are talking to MAGA crowd, but those people don’t have the wealth to drive a separation by themselves. You can see wealth individual move from one state to another but not really wanting to move out of the country. They want the benefits of the US as a one complete sovereign nation.
The smarter move is to take the left’s stuff and kick them out. Forever.
NO unlawful taking.
BUT, it would certainly be reasonable to put an “exit tax” on all of their accumulated goods for any Federal Facilities they would be taking with them in the event of an actual division of physical territory.
I’m thinking of such things as military installations, ports and related infrastructure built using Federal Funds, Federal Highways such as the Interstate Highway System and all manner of other Public Works, and also including National Parks and Monuments.
Leftists aren’t people, they’re literally cancer
No, they are figuratively cancer and literally human beings.
I’m skeptical of,their humanity. Let’s just go ahead and abort them. They’re just clumps of cells.
Reason-style libertarians would use the power of the central government (with an expansive interpretation of the Bill of Rights, incorporated via the 14th Amendment) to guarantee “liberty for all” (or at least their version of it.)
But a government that can guarantee liberty for all can also guarantee liberty for none. Decentralized power is safer, because you can move away from local government that veers too far in either direction.
I suspect that most Constitutional conservatives would be happy to let California and New York and Illinois and Massachusetts go their own way and form a splinter peoples’ republic, or conversely for Texas and South Carolina and a few other states to go their own way. But progressives would never stand for it — they want to enforce their version of good governance on all of us, even those who disagree about whether it is good at all.
Going by the 2020 presidential election results, these are what the splinter republics would look like, if they need 60%+ to leave:
Blue:
DC, Vermont, Massachusetts, Maryland, Hawaii, California, New York (would conservatives really miss them?)
Red:
Wyoming, West Virginia, Oklahoma, North Dakota, Idaho, Arkansas, Kentucky, Alabama, South Dakota, Tennessee (would progressives really miss them?)
Everyone else would stay in the USA, including states like Texas and Florida and Illinois and Oregon and Minnesota which don’t really lean as far left or right on election day as people seem to think.
Just get rid of the left.
That’s as big, ridiculous and evil a fantasy as anyone on the left could come up with.
How do you think that’s going to go down? Seriously I want to know.
It isn’t. You don’t have to kill them all. In fact, only a small number would have to be executed. Only the real problem people at the top, the criminals, need to be imprisoned or executed. The rest can be expatriated. The remaining democrats are soft headed fools who will be largely directionless without funding, coordination and leadership.
The divide in America is not blue states vs red states. The divide is largely urban vs rural.
This is for a very practical reason. Living in a rural environment, self-sufficiency is necessary for survival. You cannot count on “government” (federal, state or, often enough local) help to arrive in time to provide the help that you need. You are lucky if you have neighbors close enough & reliable enough to give you the needed help in the event of a crisis. Therefore, self-sufficiency is a requirement & often enough, requires specific enough knowledge of your circumstances that some far off governmental body is as likely to do harm as it is to do good through the imposition of rules.
In an urban environment, the needs are very different. Cities require massive infrastructure in order to allow great numbers of people to live in close proximity. You need structures to bring in food & drink. You need other structures to remove waste. You need transportation infrastructure. You need utilities for electricity & communication. Much of this infrastructure is inherently monopolistic. It is highly unlikely that you will have the choice of more than one road to provide you with access to your home. Competing waste removal organizations will invariably create health hazards as plenty of people will be too cheap to pay their fair(?) share. Power & water lines running to your home from multiple providers will also produce numerous problems. It should be obvious to all but the most obstinate that urban life requires much more “government’ intervention than rural life. This is regardless of whether you want it to be a government that you had a hand in selecting or de facto government through business monopoly or oligarchy.
As a result, urban life promotes, by necessity, a greater appreciation for interdependency while rural life fosters independence. For one group to denigrate the other for being different is just silly. To think that these two groups could be separated in any meaningful way is also silly. Cities are primary economic drivers of our economy. Natural resources are equally essential. Anything resembling civilization will not thrive without both.
The tendency of humans to want an authority figure to follow (political, religious, social, economic) is a whole different degree of discussion for which I have not enough space in this comment. Getting rid of government will not remove that tendency.
The thing most people fail to realize much less appreciate is that the relationship between Urban and Rural Areas is Symbiotic.
Without the rural areas where the food is grown and natural resources are mined it would be impossible for large urban areas to exist. Conversely, the comfortable lifestyle of modern rural America would be impossible without much of the goods and services generated within the urban environment.
Conversely, the comfortable lifestyle of modern rural America would be impossible without much of the goods and services generated within the urban environment.
Incorrect. This assumes innovation can only take place when people colocate and that there’s no ceiling to or feedback from this colocation effect. ‘Much less feasible’ might work in place of ‘impossible’ but, even then, it assumes a relatively fixed cost for information/expertise to travel over any given distance.
Urban or rural, pay for what you take or need. Folks can choose the environment they like best with the infrastructure they need to make it work. Just don’t make others pay because you choose to live in a crowded city that needs sewers or 20 miles from the nearest post office.
Like so many in this country, the author assumes two options: two countries, one red and one blue, or one big country. Why not six or seven countries?
The author also seems to assume that breaking up the USA would mean an end to the Constitution? Seems like a silly assumption.
Its time for the elf to leave. America needs to do a little housekeeping.
Any discussion of a “National Divorce” needs to be preceded by a discussion of how the various states are to be broken up ~before~ such a Divorce is accomplished.
Just two examples I am familiar with: The State of Jefferson movement in rural Northern California and the increasing desire of most of the rest of Nevada to loose Clark County/Las Vegas.
There are similar movements I have heard of in Rural Oregon and Washington.
No doubt, there are similar populist movements in other areas of the country where heavily populated urban areas are incorrectly characterizing the majority of the physical area of the states they are situated within.
I’m all for such a discussion, with a major sub-topic being how Federal Lands and Federal Investments of Tax Dollars over many decades are to be apportioned.
No we should work to promote the NAP. Humanity only has one problem and that’s people initiating force against other people. No person no matter where they live or what they believe should be forced to act against their will. Hayek wasn’t quite right, coercion is using force to make you do something government exists to make you stop violating the rights of others. Proper government holds a monopoly on the retaliatory use of force.
100%
i am very uncomfortable with government having a monopoly on any kind of power.
at best government should (MAYBE) hold a monopoly on the first retaliatory use of force. If they prove corrupt or inept in the end if falls to the principle parties to sort things.
The problem is always that governments arent run by angels. I would not want to give up a right to retaliatory force to wait for the government – who may be friends of my enemies – to sort things. When minutes count the government is only a truth and reconcilliation committee’s lifespan away.
C’mon this us libertarian site I shouldn’t have to say every time that you always retain the right to imminent harm self defense. What are you doing to have enemies?
Lincoln said, “The Union is older than the Constitution.”
We have huge liberal cities in CA, but in N. California, we have some extremely conservative Counties. This will not work.
IMHO the country will balkanize quite nicely on its own. As far as I am concerned D.C. is dead already, it will just take the corpse a decade or two to realize it.
“Always proceed with caution in the face of uncertainty.”
That is an apt definition of Conservatism.
Yeet leftists.
They cannot be negotiated with and will not abide any compromise. They are fundamentally dishonest, and literally cancer.
Good. I don’t want to compromise with them. I want them to leave.
Who pays child support?
They leave and get nothing. The end.
Beyond Federalism, is there a way to have people of different nations share the same geography? Or at least some larger border with some common spaces? Think Indian tribal lands within the US.
Supreme centralized authority is mutually exclusive with liberty. Anyone who would propose that this arrangement is a necessary evil is indeed a subscriber to evil and to authority which simply does not exist.
I seek to, as Fleetwood Mac sang, “Go your own way!” And, now.
The suggestion of national divorce gets to a very real problem. Multi-cultural empires simply don’t last. Or at least they don’t last as democracies or republics. The ability of either culture to wield the state as a weapon to impose itself on the other culture or cultures creates a dynamic where each culture sees itself as at war with the other, not even necessarily out of aggression, but out of fear of the others’ aggression. The only way that empire can be sustained is by the imposition of the very tyranny that they fear from the other.
The U.S. Constitution was, for a time, brilliant at short-circuiting this. Strictly enumerated powers meant that the control of the imperial federal government was of limited consequence. A rancher in Texas didn’t need to worry that the head of the federal government might be a Boston Brahmin because there was little that the Boston Brahmin might impose upon him. And the Boston Brahmin didn’t need to worry too much about the election of an Ohio industrialist because the Ohio industrialist wouldn’t be in a position to much affect his world.
But, the growth and centralization of power in the federal government has changed the calculus of this situation. A powerful central government is now the means to impose cultural supremacy on the whole empire. And every cultural or social issue is a fight between the different cultures.
Multi-cultural empires simply don’t last. Or at least they don’t last as democracies or republics.
They last for a season, but that’s primarily due to the imperial culture being successful at assimilating the populations it takes in, and/or conquers, or accommodating the populations that it absorbs within a cultural consensus.
Once that empire gets to a point where assimilation is replaced by balkanization and diverse ethno-nationalist movements, it tends to break down in relatively short order, with major events accelerating the process, such as World War I dealing the final blow to the Hapsburg and Ottoman empires, or World War II and the rise of Third World ethno-nationalism leading to the downfall of the British and French empires through the 1950s.
Instead of tossing it aside, maybe the task is figuring out how better to wield it. !
I’ve wondered for a while if splitting up the US could work. The blue coasts depend on the red interior for water, energy, food, and raw materials. So, assuming they did split off, they would have to import all these things, which would get extremely expensive and could take away any financial advantage they have controlling all the money. Also, who is to say that the divorce would be amicable? Would blue states welcome hipster refugees from Nashville and Austin, or would they suspect them as spying for the enemy?
I believe there is a scene in John Adams where Adams is speaking to Jefferson and says after the Declaration of Independence passed, they are taking a step in the dark. Jefferson responds by stating his hatred of Great Britian. They had no idea of unintended consequences or if they were going to win but they pushed ahead. A national divorce at this point could be viewed the same. If you can’t stand the marriage you have to break it up.
Regarding how:
1. Counties which can be linked physically to others who decide to leave their current state can move to a new state again if they physically touch. I could see most of central NY and western NY counties join Ohio as most of central and western PA would. Most of Illinois would join Indiana and so on. If you follow this logic about 80% or more of the country would be in the State of its choosing. Yes, this would leave some pockets of conservatism or liberalism (say like Austin or even Chicago) “trapped” but then…
2. We have five years for a national divorce. That gives people “trapped” plenty of time to move to the country of their choosing
3. What about Isolated city/states (mostly this would be a “blue” problem)? Both countries sign a 100-year free trade and movement agreement. No tariffs (just use the current commerce clause the way it was really written) and allow free travel between say “red states and blue states.”
4. National Debt: A blue state problem. Red America will adopt its own currency (hopefully based on gold which it gets based on where Fort Knox is located). Blue State country can keep the Federal Reserve and hence the debt.
5. Military: the US Army can be demobilized with each country getting the weapons based on where the basis is located. Same for the Air Force. The Navy will be jointly managed. Any wars or sending the Navy into conflict will have to be approved by both countries. Army and Air Force will be separate (think national guards). Nuclear weapons are jointly controlled.
6. Foreign relations: blue country can go all Wilsonian and Red can be noninterventionist.
A national divorce can be executed…at this point do you really want to live with people who hate your guts and want you dead? No…
Do you want to live with someone who hates your guts? This is precisely why splitting up the country along political lines would not turn out as rosy as you predict? Progtardistan and Trumpistan will continue to find ways to fuck with each other.
America is a cesspool of corruption and statism.
If Americans are going to be free, America must be partitioned or destroyed entirely.
No, just purge the left. Then America will do just fine.
Instead of us leaving, why not just kick New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco out of the country?
Jus the lieole that live there. We keep the land, improvements, and all their stuff. For ‘reperations’.
It is difficult for me to understand how any state request to secede from the Union would not automatically be met with the same response as it did in 1861. The federal government would dither, posing at negotiation and mutual reasoning, while inflamed citizens would start seizing and/or destroying federal property. Federal attempts to suppress the “rebellion” would trigger full-fledged civil war.
A nationwide wave of neighbor-versus-neighbor terrorism would unleash a blood-letting on par with the Civil War and the French and Russian Revolutions.
I would appreciate hearing any reasoned argument against my contention. But in the meantime, I hold to my attitude that secession is not a serious topic, but rather an insult for right and left to hurl at each other to rally their bases.
I wonder, too, how a seceding state would feel about suddenly assuming their per capita proportion of the Federal debt when so many of the states inclined to secede are among the poorer states.
I wonder, too, how a seceding state would feel about suddenly assuming their per capita proportion of the Federal debt when so many of the states inclined to secede are among the poorer states.
Considering your side threatens to move to Canada every time it takes an L, this is more a rhetorical exercise than anything else.
What side is that? I am no Democrat nor lefty. And you’re not exactly addressing the point either.
Yeah, the left has really put us in a bad situation. Time to get rid of them and get to work fixing what they’ve done to us.
This is basically why we have the process of divorce well defined: because if someone wants to divorce bad enough and there is no legal option, then someone is going to die.
Which is why we, as a nation, should define the “legal option” for secession ahead of time before there’s a serious desire to use it. So that when such a serious desire comes up, it’s not a “we need to figure out how to do this”, but a “we’re following the rules we all already agreed to”.
With luck we would never use it, but having the option is important.
No. Everyone is a libertarian. But almost everyone is a libertarian only when it comes to what he wants to do. The right and left factions aren’t an exact fit for everyone. I prefer defiance. I had my plumber take the thingies out of my new shower heads and Congressand tbe EPA didn’t pay for the renovation so they can go finger themselves. Etc.
Welcome to the U.S.S.A…
A copy-cat of the recent falling of the U.S.S.R (Union of Soviet(States) SOCIALIST republics)….
As history repeats itself over and over and over again….
When the USA adopted that second ‘S’ (SOCIALIST) it instantly took the same path as the U.S.S.R.
When/If the majority of people in the USA start having faith in Individual Liberty and Justice for all perhaps the USA can be saved by abiding by it’s VERY DEFINITION the U.S. Constitution. However; to get there the second ‘S’ (i.e. SOCIALIST) Rogue-Regime will have to be dismantled and destroyed.
The answer is both Yes and NO.
To explain, the Federal government needs to be seriously reduced and the powers that the Federal government has stolen should be returned to the people. The scope or role of the Federal government should be very limited and defined.
States should be essentially member countries that share a common defense (defense not offense). Otherwise it would basically a treaty between the States.
The States should allow peaceful separatist movements to increase the number of member States and decrease the size of the various States.
California should be several states instead of one huge state. Same with other states with large populations. One state government with 50 million people is a recipe for lack of representation.
Personally, I favor elimination of the states and use counties instead. Or make the state just a treaty of the counties and the power resides more locally.
So the answer is both YES and NO.
Whenever discussion of dividing CA into several states comes up, it is inevitably pointed out that this would create at least two red states and probably a couple of purple ones, and that is used as an argument against it. So long as the coast can suppress the inland regions, they have no intention of ever letting up. Chicago will never allow southern Illinois to form a red state either.
The current US system if anything results in the inland regions suppressing the coastal states. But I guess as the coastal states are full with people who are not “real ‘Muricans”, you’re ok with that.
In no reality are the coastal states being “suppressed,” especially considering that this isn’t a marxist nation, at least formally.
The Senate over-represents inland states and underrepresents coastal states.
If we’re talking about breaking up CA into several states, we should probably embrace a regular “state redistricting” similar to congressional district redistricting. You know, where we population-balance out districts?
But “red” states would never go along with such a plan, because if you population-balanced states, there probably wouldn’t be a structural advantage for conservatives anymore (population balanced, quite a few “blue” cities would be states unto themselves).
And that’s before you even talk about other reasons states might not want to be broken up and reformed, things like history, “state pride”, impact on water treaties and so-on.
Which isn’t to say it’s a bad idea, but it would fundamentally alter how the US works.
(population balanced, quite a few “blue” cities would be states unto themselves).
They already are in Oregon and Washington.
And that’s before you even talk about other reasons states might not want to be broken up and reformed, things like history, “state pride”, impact on water treaties and so-on.
Heh, I guarantee the Western Slope of Colorado would LOVE to break off from the east along the Continental Divide, and tell Denver to go fuck itself on getting any water whatsoever from the Colorado River anymore.
Given current domestic migration patterns over the past couple of generations, if the country did split up you’d probably see a mad scramble south to secure those Confederate passports while the gettin’ was good.
Much like the value of a ‘dollar’, the value of the US Constitution is largely in what society decides is its value. There was a time when the oath to defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic was broadly taken seriously. Now in the political realm it seems that these are just words that have to be spoken to get the position. To use the Constitution as a powerful tool, its value has to be ‘returned’ at a societal level. It is instructive to note that other nations have ‘constitutions’ with personal rights that are not being upheld, despite what their constitution says. For example, the constitution of the Russian Federation says in Chapter 2, Article 29 “Everyone shall be guaranteed the freedom of ideas and speech.”
+100000000000
If there’s a divorce, how do they split up the nuclear weapons?
The red states get them, since the left made it known 40-50 years ago that they wish to be “nuclear-free zones.”
Yeah, if you don’t want extinction-level death fire in your back yard, you must be some kind of idiot.
lol… Yes; many have told you that all along… UR “some kind of idiot”.
I thought you were a climate warrior? You’re against nuclear power?
At least until it’s launched from my yard to yours.
a national divorce is not necessary…just…you know….have the federal government stop doing most of the shit its not supposed to be doing.
Zack: Chaos is here. It might still exist in 50 states. Or, further division might keep splitting the political jurisdictions, until a small voluntarist community self-governs. That possibility doesn’t exist now. A small “live free or die defending” village might act as a beacon of freedom, attracting and/or inspiring other attempts, all over the world.
It’s no gamble because we have no freedom now, only a political goal based on the non-initiation of force, threats, fraud. That new paradigm would give us choices, governing options, a chance.
It’s a great thing to speculate about, but just like quitting your job, moving to a new town, or telling your spouse it’s over, it’s human nature to only see the bad side of what you have, and imagine a new situation with no bad side. Note: I say with no bad side. Every situation is imperfect, it just becomes a matter of deciding which you want to put up with.
Breaking the US into smaller independent nations might have its advantages, but it will have its problems too. Number one will be that either China or Russia will immediately become the great power both militarily and economically. “The world’s most expensive luxury is having the second best military on the planet” (Heinlein).
I’ll stick with my wacko lefty neighbors, thank you.
Funny… UR wacko lefty neighbors will do everything in their ability to dismantle that ONE thing you take as the only advantage to having a Union of States (i.e. Defense)…. Heck; they complain about the defense budget like it was a plague…
But you do have a point.. They might complain about it endlessly while a Republican is in office but they don’t de-fund it while their own is in office they just stop complaining about it.
A breakup would likely not be into 50 states, but more likely a few smaller unions of states. The west coast states, New England, and the Upper Midwest might form separate bastions of leftist authoritarianism, but I imagine most of the remaining states with shared borders will simply form a new United States with a greater eye towards federalism than we currently have.
A breakup by county would be even more lopsided as far as landmass goes.
The breakup of the US: the most irrational self-inflicted wound on a world power in history, or were they all irrational? After all, if humans were actually rational beings, we’d have a one-world democratic government, fossil fuels abundant and safely in the ground, and would never find a good excuse to fight a war.
But history books will have to work overtime to gravitas-wash QAnon and Trump. At least all those times the Catholics turned everything to shit, they went to the bother of building nice things.
Summary… All us democratic Nazi fan-boys (Oh excuse me globalist Nazi’s) who never want to *earn* anything but instead supports STEALING from those ‘icky’ people (i.e. The party of slavery) by poking Gov-Guns at them to build nice things ….. we never have to worry about wars…… Because enslaving others that don’t matter with Gov-Guns to supply us with an abundant amount of fossil fuels and safety we’re too lazy to *earn* is FAR better than those QAnon and Trump people who don’t want a SLAVERY Nation….
2nd Summary; “Why can’t you illegitimate slaves of the State just stop being so irrational!!!”, Tony
And that is WHY leftards are the worse people and treasonous to the USA… 100% credit to Tony for coming out of the closet and being HONEST about what leftards hearts really desire.
As it continues on with the USSR and the Nazi’s and almost every end-result of hard Communist and Socialist societies who find out they cannot “print resources” from their climate-scare tree…
The bottom line will always result in massive GUNS (death) and poverty while trying to conquer what other people have created. For their very foundation lives in a world that every CRIMINAL does; that survival depends on GUNS that STEAL from other people.
Democrats….
Worships AGGRESSIVE Gov-Guns that STEAL for them….
Curses DEFENSIVE Personal-Guns that people use in defense….
Explains exactly why they want to disarm society while compulsively pushing for more Gov-Guns so long as those Gov-Guns are used for DEFENSE but instead to STEAL (Aggressive).
so long as those Gov-Guns **aren’t** used for DEFENSE
Do you think perhaps you could write a post in standard English, at least when replying to me?
We just need to get rid of people like you Tony. Maybe you would be happier in Venezuela. Or maybe Somalia.
Do you think you’re different from the Nazis and everyone else who had exactly this attitude, or do you proudly display their collectibles in your man-cave?
Considering you’re the Nazi (National Socialist) supported. Yeah; It would be the exact oppose of a Nazi. It would be those that conquered the Nazi-Regime.
Note to foreign readers: Tony is our uninvited socialist orator, who provides some offset against the 372 gibbering Trumpanzee infiltrators. Ted is the guy Dilbert’s boss had killed a few weeks ago.
If groups of States left there would be no civil war. There would be no appetite for massive enlistment of upper middle class liberal kids into the US army. Drafts would have to be adopted and then the protests start…college deferments would again divide the rich from poor..in other words the Federal Govt would not be able to field an army large enough to win….those days are long gone. And most of the US industrial base is not in the Northeast anymore but South and Midwest..
The federal government already has the most powerful armed forces the world has ever known.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/248063/per-capita-us-real-gross-domestic-product-gdp-by-state/
US is supposed to be “a soverign nation of soverign States.”
Our Constitution was written by men representing the several States, representing “We the People” of those States. Then the Constitution was ratified by the States via their legislatures. The States formed the central government to do certian things and have the powers to do only those things. We need to return to the central government doing only those enumerated powers. The rest are retained by the States or the People.
^Well Said! +100000
Our Constitution was written by men who could at least spell. Besides grade school dropouts, who else is Zack attracting to Reason with the Trumpanzee show? Are reruns of Jerry Lewis mocking the handicapped next?
1. Balanced Budget Amendment. Any deficits must be approved by 3/5 majority of Congress, signed by POTUS.
2. No “revenue sharing.” Uncle Sam is building streets, sewers, schools, local parks, housing, etc. Federal money is like drugs to state & local governments and NGOs.
3. Repeal the income tax. Go with a 15% national sales tax. Provide every permanent resident with an annual rebate of $3,000 (indexed). (The rebate solves the regressive nature of a sales tax.)
We don’t need a complicated dismemberment of the “more perfect union”. All we need to do is to kick California out.
Then the Senate, House and Whitehouse all fall back under Republican control, allowing us to argue between conservatism and libertarianism while California goes the way of Venezuela.
Zach is interviewing a girl-bullying, Alt-right, Trumpanzee comedian-impersonator who is also impersonating a libertarian. Okaaaaay… But why lie in the intro? Lebensborn National Socialists seek to deprive women of individual personhood and all constitutional rights thereto appertaining. This goes for the Austrian Anschluss Caucus, Tea and Republican Party and George Wallace “American” Party, their assigns and brainwashees. Whether they are motivated by anger at the thought of enjoyment or terror of Satan is irrelevant.
“”A free society demands not only that the government have the monopoly of coercion but that it have the monopoly only of coercion,” Hayek wrote in The Constitution of Liberty. ”
How can such a smart man make such an obvious mistake: clearly, a free society demands that *NO ONE* have the right to coercion, including those offering governance services. There is no reason to carve out an exception and history clearly shows the folly of doing so. The monopoly issue is secondary: it is the use of coercion that leads to monopoly, because no one wants competition, and the right to use coercion allows you to eliminate it. But getting rid of monopoly wouldn’t solve the problem: multiple “governments” all using coercion still means a society with rampant use of coercion, e.g. taxes, conscription, tariffs, occupational licensing, jail for victimless crimes, etc, etc. Those aren’t the fault of “monopoly governance”, they are the fault of *coercion*, of *violence*.
In my opinion, this whole thing (the US) is supposed to be about looking at every single issue through a complicated lens. We aren’t supposed to be an all-in / one-way-or-another country. We are the melting pot. To me, calling for “a divorce” or any secession is giving up on liberty and against different ideas being able to potentially shine or at least have their moment for debate.
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