Joe Biden

Glenn Greenwald: Nothing Trump Did Compares to the 'Moral Evil' of Bush's and Obama's Wars

The Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist on Joe Biden, free speech, and leaving The Intercept for Substack.

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No journalist is more relentlessly iconoclastic than Glenn Greenwald, who shared a 2014 Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the Edward Snowden revelations. 

Though unapologetically progressive, the 53-year-old former lawyer never shrinks from fighting with the left. A week before the 2020 election, he quit The Intercept, the online news organization he co-founded in 2014, because, by his own account, it refused to run a story unless he "remove[d] all sections critical of" Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden. Denouncing what he called "the pathologies, illiberalism, and repressive mentality" that led him to be "censored" by his own media outlet, Greenwald railed that "these are the viruses that have contaminated virtually every mainstream center-left political organization, academic institution, and newsroom."

Like a growing number of refugees from more-traditional news organizations, Greenwald took his talents to Substack, a platform for independent content creators to earn revenue directly from their audiences. He wasted no time lobbing grenades, posting stories and videos with titles like "No Matter the Liberal Metric Chosen, the Bush/Cheney Administration Was Far Worse Than Trump" and "The Three Greatest Dangers of Biden/Harris: Militarism, Corporatism and Censorship, All Fueled by Indifference."

Nick Gillespie spoke with Greenwald via Zoom at Greenwald's house in Brazil, where he lives with his husband, two children, and numerous dogs. Among other topics, they discussed what Greenwald sees as a generational fight playing out in newsrooms, the challenge identity politics poses to free expression, and whether a coalition of libertarians and progressives can effectively push non-interventionist foreign policy, lifestyle liberation, and an end to corporate subsidies during the Biden presidency.

Narrated by Nick Gillespie. Edited by Regan Taylor, John Osterhoudt, and Lex Villena.

Photo: Marcelo Chello/ZUMA Press/Newscom; SERGIO MORAES/REUTERS/Newscom; Ole Spata/dpa/picture-alliance/Newscom; ليبي صح, World Economic Forum, Pete Souza/Photoshot/Newscom; Carlos Barretta/ZUMA Press/Newscom; AP Photo/Vincent Yu; Fotoarena/Newscom; AP Photo/Leo Correa; Paulo Lopes/ZUMA Press/Newscom; Carlos Barretta/ZUMA Press/Newscom; Gage Skidmore/Creative Commons/Flickr; Senado Federal/Creative Commons/Flickr; FERNANDO BIZERRA JR/EFE/Newscom

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  1. Thank you Nick for doing this interview.

    1. Yeah thanks Nick. Had to wait until after the election but better than nothing I guess.

      1. Nick had to wait for approval from Intercept’s editors.

        1. Like Greenwald reported of the Intercept’s reason for stifling his article before the election, Nick didn’t want to lose cocktail party invites for seeming to help Trump before the election.

          (Hilarious to listen to Greenwald verify what we’ve said for years.)

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    2. I don’t know about you guys, but I just paid for a sub at Greenwald’s site – and I never pay for anything on the net.

      The site looks good too. Smart people. Only paid subscribers. No censorship. No spam. No sqrlsy. Group affiliations are shunned.

      Demographic looks to be mostly equal representation of liberals, conservatives , and libertarians. And everyone there is on the same page with:
      End war
      Anti media
      Anti uniparty

      Seriously looks to be the best place to go for intellectuals who don’t mind diversity of opinion.

      1. Now if only you get alerts when your comments are responded to. I don’t think you can edit though.

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        2. There’s really nothing more libertarian than “it’s not our job to keep you in the conversation”. Well, actually there are probably a few things, but you get the point.

          Yeah, I kinda missed the alerts at first too. I got over it.

      2. Great. Now f everyone can get together on ending authoritarian oppression and all the other evil sh the democrats are doing I’m in.

  2. Funny how before the election, the message was how rude and crude Trump was, with the only substantive complaints being immigration and trade wars. Now that Biden is the next target, suddenly we get substantive reasons why Biden will be bad, all of them worse than Trump. Bad cabinet picks, more torture, more wars, more spending. But he’s not rude and crude, unless you count his hair sniffing and unwanted shoulder massages. Wonder why that gets a free pass as “weird uncle Joe” but Trump’s crude remarks get national coverage.

    I don’t remember this at all for previous elections. There was probably some of it for Nixon vs Kennedy, Ronald Reagan got negative cowboy coverage, but those were nowhere near this current dichotomy.

    1. This is not new ground for Greenwald. The MSM is still deep in the pocket of the new Administration.

      1. Yep. GG is one of the last real journalists out there.

          1. He’s without peer. Prove me wrong.

            1. I’ve never read his stuff.

              But the “unapologetic progressive” description leads me to believe that you’re wrong. Just sayin.

              1. Ya, but he hates government. Like really as much as any of us. I certainly don’t agree with everything he says, but damn – who else will tell the truth these days?

                1. This.

                  It isn’t about agreeing with his politics. He is an honest broker.

                  I respected Kucinich for the same reason, despite disagreeing on everything. He was honest about his ideology and did not waver. You could predict his position on any subject. He was a Ron Paul of the left.

                  Very few writers are honest brokers these days. Most are just straight dishonest, trying to stay alive in this cray environment. But some are true believers who think their particular brand of dishonesty is actually more honest than Greenwald’s honest disagreement. Those are the ones to be feared.

            2. Salena Zito, and Atkinson

    2. Oh I remember Reagan’s coverage. It was unhinged, but it was respectably unhinged. You didn’t see journalists writhing on the ground in tears. At least not in public.

      1. Some of the greatest punk rock of the ’80s was lambasting Reagan.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suHHoef3bVs

        Now it’s like all those punk rock bands all became mainstream journalists during the Trump administration or something.

        In other words, the hyperbole of punk rock during Reagan’s term is on a similar level to the mainstream media’s hatred of Trump. It’s hilarious.

        It should be noted, too, that what the media really abhorred (both during Reagan’s term and Trump’s term) was the average Americans who supported those presidents. They’re whipping boys for the white, blue collar middle class. American mainstream journalism hates the white, blue collar, middle class, and the extent to which they whipped Reagan and Trump was the extent to which they hated the white, blue collar, middle class. The only way to be forgiven for being white, blue collar, and middle class by the chattering classes is to hate yourself for being white, blue collar, and middle class.

        1. People have forgotten the Never-Reaganers who were primarily Northeastern Blue Blood Republicans. Reagan didn’t talk like them, walk like them, and he wasn’t Ivy League.

          1. And worst of all, from the Democrats’ perspective, he appealed to the white, blue collar middle class of the Midwest.

            They should stay in their lane!

            “A Reagan Democrat is a traditionally Democratic voter in the United States, referring initially to white working class Rust Belt and California residents, and later solely to white working-class Rust Belt, who left their party to support Republican[s]

            . . . .

            The term still carries relevance, since part of this group also defected to Donald Trump, the Republican candidate for the 2016 presidential election, who won in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Florida. All of these were states that voted for Reagan in 1980 and 1984, but voted for Democratic president Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012.[1][2]

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Democrat

        2. The worst thing in the world for statists is individual thought and action. That’s why they want government schools, to make sure the indoctrination starts early and continues as long as possible. It’s probably part of why they want free college education.

          Individualism can simulate collectivism by contracts whereby people sign over control of their income and property. Collectivism can’t even tolerate individualism, let alone simulate it.

          1. Bureaucrats have a vested interest in making sure voters don’t learn critical thinking skills.

        3. Yeah, I used to love the dead Kennedy’s. Probably my first exposure to the “Everything is so terrible and unfair!” (TM) mindset.

          I still like some of their irreverent stuff. The political grievance stuff didn’t age well, though.

      2. Here, I’ll make it easy for you. Reagan was terrible, Bush was terrible, Clinton was terrible, G.W. was terrible, Obama was terrible, Trump was terrible, and Biden will be terrible.

        1. Reagan orchestrated the collapse of the Soviet Union without a nuclear exchange, and from deploying Pershing missiles to western Europe to walking out of negotiations at Reykjavik, the press lambasted Reagan every step of the way.

          Bush Sr instituted the two most comprehensive trade agreements in history, which still shape our intertwined security and economic interests, and make the world more capitalist and free than it was when he took office. Bush Sr. also wisely avoided the disasters of the occupation of Iraq.

          Clinton was wise not to screw up NAFTA and GATT, and he was wise to keep us out of Rwanda. We would still be embroiled in the problems of the Congo if he hadn’t.

          George W. Bush was a terrible president in every way, from his careless initiation of never ending wars to his expansion of socialist entitlement programs and bail out of Wall Street and deadbeat borrowers. Barack Obama was just as bad in all three regards but made it even worse by violating the separation of powers so many times it was dizzying.

          Donald Trump was bad on trade and immigration, but he was the most libertarian president we’ve ever had, especially in his Reagan like return to the pragmatism that won us the Cold War. He avoided getting us into a war in Syria, he repeatedly refused to retaliate against Iranian provocations until they started targeting Americans, and he negotiated a full withdrawal agreement with the Taliban. He also slashed corporate taxes, championed choice in education, deregulated, and fought to get the senate to pass a bill that would have cut $772 billion from Medicaid, a socialist entitlement program.

          Trump is the best president we’ve had since World War II, and we’re unlikely to see his equal in our lifetimes. The chances of the next president being a warmonger are extremely high.

          1. Trump was a bigger warmonger than Obama, and a quarter million Americans are dead from a pandemic he actively failed to manage. Iran is enriching uranium again because Trump gave them express permission.

            But I’m sure we’ll see unprecedented peace and prosperity from the tax cuts any day. It’s never happened before, but now that we’ve had such a nimble mind on top of things…

            You’re delusional and you need to be deprogrammed from this ridiculous cult.

            1. Trump didn’t turn several countries in the Middle East into failed states with another Arab Spring. He’s hardly the warmonger Obama turned out to be.

            2. “Trump was a bigger warmonger than Obama”

              Is it surprising to anybody that Tony’s fact free assertions are stupid?

              1. Trump dropped more bombs on Afghanistan in 2019 than were dropped in any other year since the Pentagon began keeping track. He dropped more bombs on Yemen than Bush or Obama. He deployed 14,000 troops to a new base in Saudi Arabia.

                You can look all of this, though the actual figures for Trump’s warmongering are not available, since he stopped having them reported.

                You don’t know what you’re talking about because you believe what Trump tells you instead of facts

                1. It is not surprising that a lying piece of lefty shit can’t seem to find a single cite to back his claims, is it?

                  1. I’d try to figure out why the number of bombs dropped matters compared to Trump negotiating and signing a peace deal with the Taliban, but why bother with Tony? He doesn’t care whether he’s wrong or right–about this or anything else. He just cares about being anti-Trump in this case.

                    1. That’s Tony.
                      He blatantly ignores the peace deal with the Taliban because it doesn’t fit with the bullshit he’s trying to push.

                      There are a lot of lying slimebags here, but nobody is in Tony’s league.

                    2. “I’d try to figure out why the number of bombs dropped matters compared to Trump negotiating and signing a peace deal with the Taliban, but why bother with Tony?…”

                      No reason to do so. That claim was probably an email from another lying lefty shit who got it from another, and if you chased it down, was probably an estimate from The Guardian.
                      Tony does not deal in “facts”; as mentioned elsewhere, he is bereft of anything like principles and those things most of us see as fixed objects are mutable to shitstain.

                    3. Yeah I’m sitting here watching a fucking Republican cheer signing a peace deal with Muslim fundamentalists. You’d cheer someone taking a shit on your mother as long as they had an (R) after their name. If only you arrived at this conclusion via nuance and an appreciation for hard choices and not unthinking mindless zombie partisanship.

                      Trump wants out of Afghanistan so he can have a feather in his cap. Ever consider that there’s a reason that it was not so simple to take the residual forces out of Afghanistan in the first place? Do you have the first clue what they were doing there?

                      And I’m just saying, Trump killed more foreigners by far than Obama ever did, so he’s a warmonger. I don’t know what other definition you’d like to use. Do body counts not matter anymore since a guy with an (R) after his name has once again racked up such a big number, here and abroad?

                    4. “Yeah I’m sitting here watching a fucking Republican cheer signing a peace deal with Muslim fundamentalists…”

                      Yes.
                      As a proggy piece of shit, we realize that you’re prefer we bomb them from the face of the earth, in spite of the fact that they represent nearly zero danger to us. And this from the same proggy piece of shit who bemoans ending WWII in the most humane option available to us.
                      And then this proggy piece of shit accuses OTHERS of being ‘partisan’.
                      I can only repeat what is obvious to everyone who wastes time reading his stinking pile of lefty shit; he is totally bereft of principles, doesn’t even know what the word means. And is equally bereft of any historical knowledge or dishonest enough to lie constantly.
                      Fuck off and die.

                2. Trump didn’t drop any bombs, you’ll find. And, there’s no war in Saudi Arabia. If you’re going to lie, be prepared to be called on it.

            3. “Trump was a bigger warmonger than Obama, and a quarter million Americans are dead from a pandemic he actively failed to manage.”

              Get fucked with a running rusty chain saw, you lying piece of lefty shit.

            4. How is a guy who didn’t actually start any new wars a bigger warmonger than the guy who did?

              And how does the President of the United States manage an epidemic when he doesn’t actually have the authority to tell anyone what to do?

              Are you saying you were hoping for a Trump power-grab?

              1. If you’ve got an issue with how the pandemic was handled – go blame your state government.

              2. It’s Tony, he lies a lot, it’s what he does.

            5. Trump killed a quarter million with the Chinese virus. He also killed millions in other countries with the Chinese virus. Now that’s some skilled foreign trade!

              1. You’re full of shit and have a raging case of TDS, fucking lefty ignoramus.

          2. As a longtime Hit&Runpublican I must say as a robotic, mindlesss, lockstep, kneejerk, blinder-wearing, hyper-partisan TEAM and TRIBE member that Bill Clinton was, by far, the least worst president between the terms of Reagan and Trump. Sure he torched those kids in Waco and totally infringed on the 2A (with a BIG assist from John Kasich in the House and pretty much ALL Senate Republicans) but it was essentially 8 years of PEACE&PROSPERITY so long as you didn’t live in the Balkans or own an aspirin factory in the Sudan or die in a fiery Seventh Day Adventist-offshoot compound in the Brazos Valley. Still way, way better than both Bushes and their Kenyan Kommunist successor.

            1. Clinton wasn’t able to do a lot of the stupid things he wanted to do because a newly Republican congress kept him in check.

              Being a relatively good president because he failed in his attempts to enact his agenda isn’t much of a claim to fame.

              Here’s to gridlock!

              1. Clinton got lucky with the “peace dividend” and the technology boom but when lost congress he played the hand he was dealt and did welfare reform and a reasonable budget. He chose to go along with that Republican congress. Compare and contrast with Obama.

              2. Better than nothing.

                And better than his successors did.

                1. And I acknowledged that.

                2. Not quite sure he was better than nothing. Nothing looks pretty good unless it is a code word for ‘W’.

            2. Lady Gaga could’ve presided over PROSPERITY in the go-go 90’s economy, and she was only like 4 years old.

              Not impressed with bubba Clinton.

            3. I remember it was fairly near the end of his life, but Barry Goldwater actually made supportive remarks about the Clinton Presidency. He was a gentleman and a statesman.

          3. “…Barack Obama was just as bad in all three regards but made it even worse by violating the separation of powers so many times it was dizzying…”

            Don’t leave out the train-wreck O-care.

        2. Reagan wasn’t terrible. Clinton wasn’t terrible. GW was terrible. Obama was terrible. Trump wasn’t terrible. And Harris will be terrible.

          Fuck, even Carter wasn’t terrible. He made some missteps (but at least didn’t get us stuck in a new war) and got stuck presiding over some economic shit he couldn’t do anything about.

          1. Eh I don’t know about that. Neither Nixon nor Ford nor Carter could do much about inflation, but Reagan could and did, by jamming interest rates up, then having the steel nads to wait it out for two rough years with “stay the course”, leading to his 49 state re-election landslide. Iirc about that time, politicians were laboring under the theory, by two economic Nobel Prize winners, who “proved” common working men did just fine unded high inflation as long as their wages kept up.

            1. That might be the true Reagan legacy – the fealty to low inflation. I think we may have lost our institutional memory on that one though.

              High inflation is a killer for any country.

              And I’m still at a loss as to how we have avoided double digit inflation. After 8 trillion this year and still no devaluation of the currency, maybe economics is all imaginary.

            2. The president has nothing to do with interest rates. Those are set by the Fed. If any single person deserves credit for ending the high inflation of the 70s it’s Fed chairman Paul Voelker – a Carter appointee.

      3. That was likely a factor of the time, no dipshit millennials in the press corps. And the rot in the education system hadn’t spread quite as far.

    3. But he’s not rude and crude

      Come on, man! You’re a damned liar! I challenge you to a push up contest! I can do more than those stupid bastards in the military!

      1. It’s not rude and crude when it’s just crazy ol’ Uncle Joe.

    4. The only thing I liked about Trump was his push-back on the militarists. His tax cuts were standard Republican donor payback. They mostly went to big business, with very little to small business. Big business took them and bought back stock. They were stimulative but not efficiently stimulative.

      He never came through on his infrastructure projects at all. He catered to the theocratic tendencies of evangelicals though he is contemptuous of them in reality. He never did keep any manufacturing jobs in the U.S. He paid farmers outright because his tariffs hurt them.

      His environmental deregulation was unhinged. He just went to industry and asked them what would reduce their costs without consideration of impact. The Clean Water rule, for example, has already be absorbed by the chemical industry and it really does keep poisonous stuff out of the water supply. Rolling these environmental regulations back are not all that stimulative anyway. They are simply donor payback.

      Anyway, he’s dead meat until the repubs nominate him again in 2024 when they can’t find anyone else to appeal to his cultish base.

      1. When the federal government was confiscating 35% of private industry’s profits and redistributing that money with a zero return through government spending, that created an economy that was worse for the average worker than when President Trump cut the rate of profit confiscation down to 21%. This is one of the reasons why unskilled workers enjoyed the best job market in our lifetimes under the Trump administration.

        “The recent jump in paychecks has come with an unusual characteristic, as workers at the lower end of the pay scale are getting the greater benefit . . . it’s the first time during an economic recovery that began in mid-2009 that the bottom half of earners are benefiting more than the top half — in fact, about twice as much, according to calculations by Goldman Sachs. The trend began in 2018 and has continued into this year.”

        https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/workers-at-lower-end-of-pay-scale-getting-most-benefit-from-rising-wages.html

        No doubt, Trump slashing ObamaCare requirements for keeping unskilled workers on the payroll also contributed to the demand for unskilled labor, but confiscating profits and redistributing them through government spending is also not a recipe for economic growth or increasing standards of living.

        Not even Keynes believed that. He saw Keynesian stimulus as a desperation measure to deal with the liquidity trap. Confiscating more profits from organically growing companies and squandering them on government largess–with no associated profitable activity at all–is bad for the economy. And that’s regardless of whether letting corporations keep more of their profits is good for the wealthy and good for wealthy shareholders, too.

      2. “…They mostly went to big business, with very little to small business…”
        Bullshit.
        Any reduction in “business taxes” benefit the consumer; businesses don’t pay taxes, they serve as a tax collector from their customers.
        ———————————————————
        “Anyway, he’s dead meat until the repubs nominate him again in 2024 when they can’t find anyone else to appeal to his cultish base.”
        And stuff your TDS up your ass; your head is pleading for company.

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  3. There are honest liberals still out there, but you won’t find them on the big, mainstream platforms. Masha Gessen is another one on the left like that. She’ll excoriate Trump for this policy or that policy (she can’t stand him)–but also point out that the alleged Russian collusion conspiracy was a ridiculous joke. She even wrote a piece going after her fellow journalists for selling their credibility short with the story.

    The market just isn’t being served right now, but the solution is already in the mail. If you don’t have a streaming player, get one already, give them to your friends and family as gifts this Christmas, and undercut the whole broadcast journalism business model. Direct to consumer business models mean news broadcast catering directly to the maximum number of consumers, and streaming your video means consumers no longer need to pay for cable and broadcast news channels that they aren’t watching. People are already losing their jobs because of this. We need more of that.

    In the meantime, if you’re relying on free news services for your information, you’re part of the problem. You get what you pay for–now more than ever–and if you aren’t paying for your news, you’re getting force fed somebody’s noble lies whether you realize it or not. I once read that the average cord cutter saves $85 a month, and with more options with free tiers becoming available all the time, you might even save more. Use some of those savings to subscribe to a quality news service, for goodness’ sake.

    1. There are not Liberals anymore. They are very moderate Republicans or Libertarians.

      If you’re Left of Libertarians, you’re a Socialist in denial still trying to call yourself a Democrat.

      Even Republicans can be politically for drug legalization.

      1. The most effective criticisms of communism in history were written by a committed socialist.

        1. It is possible to be an honest socialist. Some people are honestly wrong.

          Others are genuinely trying to mislead the public with noble lies and think they’re doing us a solid with their lies. They’re wrong about what’s in our best interests, but they’re also being willfully dishonest. That’s the mainstream media in a nutshell. Some of them are so far gone, they don’t think what’s in our best interests is even a worthy topic of conversation. They’re trying to undermine capitalism, the principles of the Constitution, and our rights at every opportunity–and they think they’re doing us and the world a solid favor.

          1. “They’re trying to undermine capitalism, the principles of the Constitution, and our rights at every opportunity–and they think they’re doing us and the world a solid favor.”

            No.

            These people are not misguided idealists. They know that Socialism leads to misery, suffering and death for millions. They also know that the privileged class of people with Party connections lives pretty well, and they intend to be part of that ruling class.

            Every Socialist is a slaver. Treat them accordingly.

            1. I think you’re both right, and it depends who you’re talking about. Ken is describing some of them, you are describing others. There’s a reason the term “useful idiot” exists.

              Who’s who is obvious at the far ends of this spectrum (billionaire globalists, Ivy League bureaucrats and intelligence community members on one end, some of the commentators here and other random people most of us know on the other). It’s in the middle that gets tricky, and this is where the media is. Someone like Fredo Cuomo is definitely all set, but that’s just obvious because of his brother. Most of the high level corporate media are probably on that end too. But at some point on the hierarchy in the media, you have people that have been brainwashed to be true believers at our universities.

            2. Orwell was not a slaver.

              Christopher Hitchens was a Trotskyist–not a slaver.

              They were just wrong about some things–the evils of authoritarianism not being one of those things. They didn’t appreciate the invisible hand, and they didn’t understand that authoritarianism is inevitable within the system they were advocating. But has there ever been anyone who despised authoritarianism as much as Orwell?

              The progressives today are clearly authoritarians. The purpose of progressives is to use the coercive power of the government to force some of us to make sacrifices of our liberties and our standard of living for what they see as the greater good. Theirs is the rationalization for every dictatorship ever (and their plans are doomed to failure).

              Meanwhile, as R Mac is saying, it’s also important to keep the enemy and the battlefield separate in our minds. Authoritarian progressives are the enemy, and the voters who might support them out of naivete are the battlefield. If we treat the battlefield as if they were the enemy, we’re sure to lose. Our objective is to capture as much of the battlefield as possible. We tell the battlefield that we understand what they want, but they’re going about it the wrong way.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLifSFBs_Lk

          2. Ku-klux-Ken, for instance, honestly believes clinic shooter Robert Dear would make a good President, or failing that, a Supreme Court Justice. The drawback of libertarianism is that the whack job flotsam ejected from collectivist cliques washes up hopefully on libertarian shores, eager to preach girl-bullying and the shooting of children and dogs as God’s Own Commandments from the unjustly marginalized Apocrypha. If only they knew–before vanishing–that these pages are monitored by FBI forensic psychiatrists…

            1. “Ku-klux-Ken, for instance, honestly believes clinic shooter Robert Dear would make a good President, or failing that, a Supreme Court Justice.”

              You’re a fucking idiot.

              1. Yeah but he compensates by being mostly unintelligible.

                1. Whatever he’s taking I don’t want.

  4. Taibbi and Greenwald strike me a lot like Orwell–classical socialists who end up becoming alienated from the movement they were a part of, after the Movement ended up becoming the Establishment and stopped giving a shit about working people in favor of fashionable political trends.

    1. I feel like that around here sometimes!

      “When REASON speaks of poverty, racism, the draft, the war, studentpower, politics, and other vital issues, it shall be reasons, not slogans, it gives for conclusions . . . . Proof, not belligerent assertion. Logic, not legends. Coherance (sic), not contradictions. This is our promise: this is the reason for REASON.”

      —-Lanny Friedlander

      Reason Magazine, May 1968

      https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/07/us/07friedlander.html

      How many among the staff here still buy into that?

      I maintain that libertarian capitalists have nothing to fear from the truth because libertarian capitalism is the truth. All we need to do is persuade people to be reasonable, and libertarian capitalism grows in that soil naturally. Try to defend the war on marijuana, the Green New Deal, Medicare for All, or the Iraq War using facts and logic. I dare them! This is why every time an ostensibly libertarian journalist cuts corners on the facts and logic, they’re undermining the libertarian cause like nothing else can.

      Different libertarians certainly can have different qualitative preferences, but writing story after story about Afghanistan–without acknowledging that President Trump negotiated a deal to fully withdraw all U.S. troops–fundamentally undermines the libertarian cause. We’re the one movement that doesn’t need to lie. Why sell that short?

      1. Some of you may have seen Shrike the other day call me a liar for saying that Biden supported the Green New Deal and Medicare for All.

        I shut him up by linking to Biden’s own site where he was expressed support for both of those things, but the interesting thing is that Shrike could read this site every day for a whole election cycle and not know that Biden supports the the Green New Deal and Medicare for All.

        He was so sure he was right about Biden not supporting those things, he made a fool of himself–despite reading this site every day for months during the election cycle.

        1. “…I shut him up by linking to Biden’s own site where he was expressed support for both of those things, but the interesting thing is that Shrike could read this site every day for a whole election cycle and not know that Biden supports the the Green New Deal and Medicare for All…”

          I won’t last.
          He’s been handed his hat on his bullshit regarding Clinton’s ‘balanced budget’ and ‘Obo’s economy many times by many commenters here. He returns with the same lies the next time the subject shows up.
          The man is despicably dishonest in the same league as Tony; lying and when corrected, lying again.

          1. Right, but my point is that he should have known enough about Biden to not make a fool of himself by calling someone a liar for saying that Biden supports something.

            Shrike should have learned enough not to make a fool of himself by reading the site every day. Yes, Shrike is full of shit, but he should know enough not to make an ass of himself.

            They’ve got Shrike, Tony, and ChemJeff thinking they’re libertarians! But it’s just that some of the staff are not acting like libertarians themselves in so many ways–they’re acting like Shrike, Tony, and ChemJeff, all three of which don’t even understand why facts and logic even matter.

            When we call them “pathological”, we’re really getting to the core of the issue. It isn’t just that they’re full of shit. It’s also that they don’t understand why being full of shit should matter. It doesn’t matter to them! Being against Trump, for instance, is then end in itself. There are no facts or whys.

            1. I don’t think Tony thinks he’s a libertarian. I think he thinks he’s here ‘trolling the lolbertarians’.

              1. Pretty sure Tony, as a lefty shit, makes no pretensions of being so; he’s a lying lefty shit, hoping someone is stupid enough to buy his ‘TRUMP CAUSED 250k DEATHS IN THE US!!!!!!!!!!!!!’. It’s likely that Tony is stupid enough to believe it himself.
                Ken, agreed.
                As I mentioned, Tony and turd will repeat the same lie a day or a week later; neither has the moral ability nor the mental acuity to understand they’ve make asses of themselves. In both cases, they exist in a Po Mo reality where “facts” are not fixed things, but just part of a Weltanschauung where making a claim establishes that claim as a “fact”.
                Neither turd nor Tony *understand* that they’ve made asses of themselves; it is beyond their ability to do so.
                Jeff, Sarcasmic, Chipper, WK, Echo something are but minor players in the ‘let’s act like facts are irrelevant’ universe.

              2. Tony is trolling Christian National Socialists who bought subscriptions exclusively for the privilege of vomiting hatred–and lately weeping pathetically about injustice in hopes of reducing Reason’s readership. International Socialists have since the 1920 been carping at their coercive altruist Christian brothers. It’s some sort of sibling thing maybe.

              3. Tony has–all but–said that we’re not the libertarians since libertarian staff are criticizing Trump and we’re defending Trump on any particular point of policy. Like I said, Tony has no conception of libertarians as principled people who hold certain truths–because Tony doesn’t have any conception of anybody as people who hold to certain truths.

                To the extent that he imagines that libertarianism is about opposing President Trump, Tony imagines himself as being more libertarian than we are in that regard–just like Reason staff. Yes, Tony, Shrike, and ChemJeff read Boehm, Britschgi, Binion, and others here and imagine themselves to be libertarians. Much of what is written on this site is written from their perspective to appeal to them. They think we libertarians are the trolls.

                1. Ken: Good read. I often disagree with you, and often not. This is a good example of why I consider myself a libertarian (both small and large “L”): While I often disagree with “libertarians,” I disagree with them much less often than with Democrats, Republicans, Greens, and whoever else.

                2. You don’t get to be a moral person and support Trump. And you especially don’t get to be a libertarian, if that means anything at all.

                  Fascism and libertarianism are not supposed to be compatible. Of course if they morph into the same thing, I will have been right all along. I always called you authoritarians. You just think they’ll never come for you.

                  1. You.
                    Are.
                    STILL.
                    Full.
                    Of.
                    Shit.

  5. Trump is the world’s leading source of Covid-19 misinformation, and thus responsible for millions of deaths. Glenn Greenwald was never a socialist or anything close. Greenwald started out backing Bush’s wars till they turned very very sour. He by his own account was a centrist before he lost his mind when Obama got elected, just like Trump did. Greenwald is a devoted Trump fan because Trump called Obama an illegal immigrant over and over again for 8 years.

    1. You’re wasting your time trying to reason with squirming and snapping creatures in thrall with a despot.

      1. “You’re wasting your time trying to reason with squirming and snapping creatures in thrall with a despot.”

        TDS-infected pathetic shits often misspell LYING as TRYING TO REASON, as does this TDS-infected pathetic shit.

    2. If you think Trump is the worlds leading source of covid misinformation, then you are about as well informed as a tapeworm.

      Trump says some crazy off the cuff things, but compared to Xi, Tedros, Fauci, Cuomo, the entire MSM he is a goddamn bastion of covid truth.

    3. “Trump is the world’s leading source of Covid-19 misinformation, and thus responsible for millions of deaths.”

      You.
      Are.
      Full.
      Of.
      Shit.

    4. Why would people outside the United States be paying attention to what Trump says about Covid? They have their own ‘Top Men’ to control them.

  6. Sieg Heil, all you brownshirts.

    1. LOL, if only, you’d be feeding worms right now instead of shitposting on an internet board.

      1. Keep practicing that goosestepping. Work on that funky salute while you’re at it.

        1. Still waiting for that fascist state to put you in the ground like you promised.

          1. Can’t happen soon enough; the world’s IQ total would instantly improve.

    2. Dude, we’re not the ones who talk about making revenge lists and putting people into camps.

      That’s you guys.

  7. Perusing twitter and Scalzi would like you to know he’s digging the new don’t give a fuck Obama. The old Obama was just a stick in the mud and NOTHING BAD OR ILLEGAL HAPPENED.

    Maybe Biden will draw us some red lines in the sand.

    1. Does anyone pay attention to Scalzi post-‘Old Man’s War’ series?

  8. Trying to rehabilitate Trump’s image already huh?

    Nah- we won’t forget he was a fascist and all his cult followers were right in line.

    1. You don’t have a clue what the word “fascist” means.

      1. Or cult. Rehabilitate is questionable, might have just received that phrase in his am email, although depending on his age he might have heard it from a judge during sentencing.

      2. You could hand Jeff or Tony a Goebbels speech, and as long as you attributed it to Foucault or Derrida those two clowns would be quoting it here.

    2. The guy you consider the be the most divisive person in the world is the guy who you’re afraid is going to unite the polity as a fasces?

      I can not think of a person less suited for accomplishing that.

  9. If you want to convince the world that you’re the only one at the Intercept who cares about truth and goodness, maybe don’t rush to defend Donald Trump at every opportunity. The more sincere GG actually is, the more of a useful idiot for the Republicans he is. You’d think actual fascism would pique his interest somewhat more than those mean Democrats having the gall not to abolish the CIA when they have power. These guys are going to liberate us straight into Putin’s lap.

    1. Maybe a little self reflection would help you to realize that you are the fascist and the useful idiot in service to desperate totalitarians, not greenwald.

      1. I used to be a fan of Greenwald’s during the period after he supported the Bush regime full-throatedly and decided to become a skeptic. Late-comers are always welcome. I was also a big fan of Matt Taibbi, almost exclusively because of his review of Thomas Friedman’s books. So of course I considered this possibility.

        But I’m not serving totalitarians. If anything, I’m serving the only political force in the world that can prevent the US from devolving into totalitarianism. That would be the regime currently trying to hold on to power despite being elected out.

        1. Your crazy is growing, I see.

          Seriously though, when you claim Trump is a fascist and claim that he’s trying to hold onto power despite being elected out, is that referring to him using the legal system to legally challenge election issues and beginning the transition process? I mean, I think his legal challenges are moronic, but not in a million years will I accuse someone of seeking legal recourse a fascist simply for doing so.

          See, you keep claiming tyranny and fascism, but Trump never actually provides you with that reality. The propagandistic gaslighting that you resort to is just jaw dropping.

          1. Fine, at best we’re living through a giant national headsmack where we realize that we’d have infinitely more testicular fortitude in the White House if we had put Hillary Clinton there, since she was emotionally stable enough to concede defeat when she was defeated.

            It doesn’t have to be fascism for it to be a farce. And hey, I’m hoping for the best-case scenario too. Just don’t vote for anymore incompetent whiny clowns to be president, for God’s sake.

            But I can’t ignore the fact that he has legitimized fucking Nazis. That the fucking Nazis are going around behaving as if the president is their man.

            Are Nazis fascists? Can we say that much? Or is there nuance there too?

            1. If we had put emotionally stable Clinton in office we’d have a fat portfolio of new wars all over the planet. We got a brief pause but Clinton/Obama/Biden are back in charge. Gonna be a whole lotta dead human beings. But rest easy Tony. Orange Man was a fascist by some definition known only to you.

              1. It is beyond perverse how you people have somehow managed to blame Bush’s wars on Democrats. I mean, impressive, but fucked up.

                Trump bombed more people than Obama ever did, by a lot. Just like he promised to do during his campaign. Why don’t you pay attention to the actual facts of the things you claim to care about?

                1. “Trump bombed more people than Obama ever did, by a lot. Just like he promised to do during his campaign. Why don’t you pay attention to the actual facts of the things you claim to care about?”

                  As a lying piece of lefty shit, you keep posting claims like this, and yet you never seem to have a cite. We can be forgiven in assuming you got an email from some other lying piece of lefty shit and repeated it.

                2. 1. The Democrats had plenty of time to stop those wars. They expanded them.

                  2. First it was ‘dropped more bombs’. Now its bombed more people?

                  1. Obama took almost all the troops out of Afghanistan. He didn’t expand any wars. You may be confused for two reasons:

                    Trump simply didn’t engage foreign policy very much except in simplistic broad strokes as is all his mind is capable of.

                    Trump didn’t let the body count get counted and the media didn’t report much on his massive bombing campaigns.

                    If you give him credit as a pacifist, I’m going to call it out, because it’s a lie.

                    (I’m going to probably wrongly assume you never waved the flag over one of Bush’s “surges.”)

                    1. “…Obama took almost all the troops out of Afghanistan. He didn’t expand any wars. You may be confused for two reasons:…”

                      This proggy piece of shit, unfortunately, will be here longer than just this week.
                      I propose a rotten egg and tomato shower when he appears on stage embarrass himself.

                3. “Trump bombed more people than Obama ever did, by a lot”

                  Enough horseshit, Tony. Nobody’s buying it.

                  1. He fucking campaigned on it. “You have to go after their families.”

                    One of his first acts as president was to drop the “mother of all bombs.”

                    Why have you all erases this from your memory? Is it because instead of having thoughts you swallow whatever Trump feeds you?

              2. “Fine, at best we’re living through a giant national headsmack where we realize that we’d have infinitely more testicular fortitude in the White House if we had put Hillary Clinton there,..”

                I assume the “we” here is you and that turd in your pocket.

            2. Dear god tony. You are the nazi, the fascist, the hateful othering zealot intent on eliminating all who dare question your virulent elitist orthodoxy. And you are so delusional, so utterly unselfaware that you project your totalitarian fantasies on Trump and Trump supporters who for four years have utterly proven that they are without a question….not fascists, not totalitarians, and not nazis. If they were, trump wouldnt be contesting an election…he would have troops in the streets. But the only people talking about using the military to haul anyone out of the whitehouse is the left, in their selfpleasuring fantasies of force.

              1. He has troops in the streets! The fucking Nazis are in the streets trying to overturn the election.

                That the legitimate army would probably turn his fat ass into a stain on the pavement given half the opportunity is just blind luck. You can’t take over a country without an army, and the militia thugs are so fucking stupid they can’t see straight, let alone organize themselves into a coup.

                But I’d prefer never to have to think about how the president is in cahoots with the neo-Nazis again.

                For Christ’s sake, pants-wetting libertarians who get hysterical over hygiene practices telling me to calm down when the head of state of the most powerful force in the world refuses to acknowledge defeat in an election. What the fuck use are you people if this doesn’t get you upset? Are you just a bunch of ninnies flinging petty grievances, or do you actually care about abuses of government power?

                1. “Troops in the streets”

                  You are so steeped in pantswetting delusion you think protesters are troops. Seek help, you need it.

                  1. No, I think wannabe militias are wannabe troops. And sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between protesters and private armies when they’re armed like private armies.

                    1. “…And sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between protesters and private armies when they’re armed like private armies.”

                      Probably a good idea to check in with “reality” now and then to help you, shitstain.

                    2. You know, you guys could have militias too. I mean, if you’re so worried about them. That’s sort of the point of the right to bear arms.

                    3. Why would we need private militias? Joe has the standing US armed forces at his disposal.

                2. The fucking Nazis are in the streets trying to overturn the election.

                  Where?

            3. . . . since she was emotionally stable enough to concede defeat when she was defeated.

              The woman who’s been crying into her wine for the last 4 years about how the Russians robbed her?

              The woman who claims Tulsi Gabbard’s election run was because she’s actually a Russian spoiler?

              *That* ’emotionally stable’ person?

          2. I’ve posted in on here before, but the Trump movement satisfies every single one of Umberto Eco’s 14 features of fascism.

            1. Only in your deeply delusional imagination

              1. So,let’s go down the list, shall we.

                The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”

                Fair enough point here.

                The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”

                Again, can’t disagree.

                The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

                They’re not the ones talking about how they’re going to punch Nazis.

                Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

                They’re also not the ones intolerant of disagreement. See: Tony.

                Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”

                This seems, to me, to be reflected by both sides of this coin. Sure, Trumpers might be scared of immigrants but Progressives are scared of the rural rump just as much.

                Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”

                Again – both groups do this.

                The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”

                Ooooh, this is a fun one. Sure, Trumpers have QAnon. Anti-Trumpers have Russia, Russia, Russia.

                The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”

                This is very much a Progressive thing. Not a Trumper thing.

                Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”

                ‘Silence is violence’ – that ain’t a Trumper slogan.

                Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”

                Again – the is a Left thing. You guys have contempt for those who aren’t ‘enlightened’ like you are, who don’t live in the cities like you do. To you these people don’t know what’s in their best interests but you do – and you’ll cram it down their throats if necessary. Because what can they do?

                Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”

                Punch a Nazi

                Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”

                Yeah. The Left has rejected manliness – power in the form of the individual – for submission to the state. Traditional sexuality is not only not tolerated, non-standard sexuality is mandatory.

                Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”

                Says the people who said ‘its her turn’ and ‘build back better’.

                Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

                Now this one is explicitly left. They use the motte-and-bailey technique constantly. Along with post-modernism just changing the definitions of words.

                So not only do I not see the Trumpers satisfying every single one of those but I see Progressives satisfying a pretty large number of them on their own.

                1. Well said.
                  To bad Chipper’s incapable of introspection or he might have learned something.

                  1. TDS victims are not capable of introspection; witness WK along with this asshole.

            2. “I’ve posted in on here before, but the Trump movement satisfies every single one of Umberto Eco’s 14 features of fascism.”

              Wanna bet that 13 of the list require that the name of the person begin with a “T” and end with a “p”, and fucking lefty shit is thereby CONVINCED!!!!

            3. BTW, I just did a search on your claim. The list is a collection or generalities such that Obo would do better than Trump.
              Fuck off and die.

            4. I have given up on political labels getting thrown around to the point where they become meaningless. Fascism is one of them.

              My other rant is the constant reference to red state blue state. Everything seems to get referred to that meme. As if the only difference between Alabama and Maine is who they voted for last election. “There are more Waffle House locations in red states”.

              Ok it is just my grumpy ranting.

        2. Oh, fuck Tony, why are you whining when “your” sadistic uber-fascist Biden will be in the WH next year along with the Black-male-incarcerating “cop” VP. He’ll be bringing bloody warmongers with him, along with corporate oligarchs, Bush-era neo-cons, Antifa street Nazis, deep-state torture masters and plotters, Bernie groupies that favor gulags for the opposition, and the oppressive Clinton/Obama neo-progressives.

          Greenwald never supported Bush and doesn’t like Trump — He simply points out the obvious.

          1. Looks like we’re getting competent technocrats, which is all I’ve ever wanted out of government. I’m not dogmatic against spook business. They do it to us, what are we gonna do, unilaterally disarm? Putin and Greenwald would like that equally, I suspect. So would China.

            But I would have settled for anything somewhat less disastrously incompetent than Trump and his neo-Nazi sycophants. Not a high bar, admittedly.

            1. Russia russia russia, you really have to stop with Rachel Maddow.

              1. I feel like you people actually think saying “Russia Russia Russia” by itself debunks the Mueller report. You know magic words aren’t real right?

                1. Russian collusion as any kind of significant factor was debunked a long time ago. By intelligence experts. Only political hacks and willfully blind members of the echo chamber kept the myth going.

                  1. The Russia hoax was a success. It achieved its purpose. Why would anyone at this point keep insisting it was legitimate? Even Schiff has gone mum an moved on to something new.

                  2. You haven’t read the Mueller report, have you? Not even a summary.

                    1. “You haven’t read the Mueller report, have you? Not even a summary.”

                      Nor have you. You spout bullshit sent to you by other lying lefty shits.

                    2. I have and it sure as fuck doesn’t say or even insinuate Russian collusion.
                      If you think that it does then you obviously haven’t read the Mueller report, not even the summary.

                      There’s a damn good reason why the Biden campaign avoided the Mueller report like the plague.

                    3. But I don’t inhabit this strange universe you do where “collusion” is both a crime and the only crime that was investigated, and that Trump is innocent of it.

                      You’re sitting here defining criminality down to “It’s OK because he’s not guilty of the one non-crime I’ve decided is relevant.”

                    4. No proof of collusion. You on the other hand, have not read it.

            2. You’ve settled for something far worse. How many times does Greenwald have to demonstrate that?

              1. Worse than Nazis? American Democrats? Pull yourself together man. They’re moderate technocrats.

                Meanwhile the streets are filled with pandemic-denying OANN junkies who think the election was stolen and will never be dissuaded from that opinion no matter how much evidence there is, and the fucking president of the United States is encouraging all of that nonsense. A president who ran on crude xenophobic nationalism and could only make international friends among the world’s fascists.

                If it goosesteps like a duck…

                1. will never be dissuaded from that opinion no matter how much evidence there is

                  You might want to thank the media and social media companies whose attempts to manipulate information has lead to basically everyone not trusting them.

                  Twitter’s actions during the Hunter Biden email thing completely destroyed the ability of the media to convince the public that the election was fair.

                  If they had just left it alone . . . but no, your ‘competent technocrats’ can’t stop sticking their fingers into light sockets – because what’s the point of being a technocrat if you aren’t fiddling with shit.

                2. ….but enough about RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA!

            3. #libertariansforcomptentechnocrats

            4. Tony.

              *sigh*

              Tony . . . there is not such thing as a competent technocrat. There never has been. Its not even theoretically possible to be a competent technocrat.

              This is why you people keep destroying cities, states, whole countries. You’ve bought into the myth of the ‘Top Men’.

              They don’t exist. They can’t exist.

            5. “Looks like we’re getting competent technocrats, which is all I’ve ever wanted out of government….”

              Maybe they’ll give shitstains like you 5-year plans to drool over.

        3. If anything, I’m serving the only political force in the world that can prevent the US from devolving into totalitarianism. That would be the regime currently trying to hold on to power despite being elected out.

          Wait, now you’re supporting Trump?

    2. If you want to see actual fascism, start looking in Michigan or California.

      1. Fascists always appropriate the language of the left when convenient. Orange man is currently still trying to steal the presidential election. He just pardoned an admitted criminal because he’s his friend. His big governing idea is building walls around undesirables. I don’t need to look anywhere but what’s on TV every day. How could you possibly miss all that?

        1. Appropriate language like changing the definition of racism in order to impose authoritarian rules over others?

          You do realize, what you complain about with Trump happens everyday within all political movements and parties, right?

          Are you so blinded by your hatred for Trump that reality just escapes you?

          1. Trump normal. Gretchen Whitmer fascist. Checks out.

            Clearly vigilante death squads need to kidnap and murder her. To maintain non-fascist normality.

            1. Trump using the bully pulpit in a crass new yorker style is normal.
              Whitmer arresting barbers for violating an unconstitution quaratine order is totalitarian.

              And if you want to link a small gaggle of entrapped militia to trump, then it is appropriate to link the blatant brownshirt-cosplaying antifa to the left. And those losers are the goddamn definition of neo fascist wannabes.

              1. If you want to associate Antifa with the left, you can knock yourself out. America is Antifa. Americans kill fascists.

                An emergency measure to protect lives is not fascism. Fascism is putting undesirables in camps because you have scapegoated them in order to win political power.

                Build a wall. Build a wall.

                1. So, in addition to being a totalitarian wannabe, you are also historically illiterate. Emergency measures have a long and well documented history as the primary tool of fascists and dictators in there rise to power

                  Look in the mirror tony. You are the fascist.

                  1. I’m not the one trying to steal the election, and I’m not the one allied to the neo-Nazis.

                    1. The biggest Nazis in America are in the nihilist neo-progressive Race Science — a Hitler favorite known as CRT in America — Antifa organizations and their bitch subsidiaries who supported fascist Biden for president. They are also the littlest Nazis. Only the uniforms are different from Hitler’s Nazi brownshirts. Plus they don’t goose-step as well, because they are preoccupied with kicking-in innocent bystanders’ heads and fire-bombing black neighborhoods and small-business areas.

                    2. You’re not being coherent.

                      The biggest Nazis in America are… the Nazis.

                    3. “I’m not the one trying to steal the election, and I’m not the one allied to the neo-Nazis.”

                      Agreed.
                      You are simply a lying lefty ignoramus.

                    4. To sum up Tony:
                      “I’m the Good Guy and I call everyone who disagrees with me “Nazis”.
                      How can people not understand this? I can never do anything wrong because I’m opposing Nazis.
                      It’s so simple to understand.
                      I’m allowed to murder, riot and arson because everything I say and do is justified, because they’re Nazis.”

                    5. I did not ask Donald Trump to become the king of the neo-Nazis. I did my best to see that he wasn’t president at all.

                    6. “I did not ask Donald Trump to become the king of the neo-Nazis. I did my best to see that he wasn’t president at all.”

                      Well, he didn’t and had no intention of doing so; does your pet rock keep tigers away too?
                      You are pretty fucking stupid…

                  2. “So, in addition to being a totalitarian wannabe, you are also historically illiterate.”

                    Absolutely!
                    His concept of the Soviet takeover of Russia is beyond even Figes attempts to white-wash it, absent a single supporting facts.
                    Shitstain has no principles; “facts” are mutable, to be stretched or shunk to suit the argument at hand.
                    It’s possible he actually has some acquaintance with the historical record and simply finds it preferable to fantasize a new one on demand, or it is possible he’s simply a fucking ignoramus.
                    Or both.

                2. Americans kill anarcho-communists, too–or at least they used to.

                  Make Commie-Killing Great Again.

                  1. Like 10,000 monkeys on a tripewriter, Green Teeth here has finally spewed forth something almost intelligible.

                3. Someone explain to Tony that on Communist East German postage stamps the Berlin Wall was knighted as the “antifaschistischer Schutzwall.” Shutz here carries the same meaning as in Waffen-SS organizational charts. While it is true that Positive Christian conservatives defend National Socialist policies, they shrink from bandying about quotations from Battersby’s “Holy Book of Adolf Hitler” for fear of again being investigated by HUAC.

                4. So, Tony, are Nazis Socialists? Since self-named terms are now the basis of reality and all.

                  1. Depends on what you mean by socialists. I realize you’re itching to find some connection between Nazis and modern American progressives. But Nazis killed the leftists and communists. They went after them first. Socialism and other worker-friendly language was PR. It always is for fascists. They appropriate the language of the left to gain support of the workers.

                    Little did he know that the American version would have figured out how to make workers hate the politics of workers rights.

                    Get them to vote to sacrifice their own jobs on the altar of the free market, and then bitch at the left as if it was their fault. It’s pretty remarkable actually.

                    1. So, even though antifa is more fascist than any group in American politics, they are “anti fascists” because they said so. But the same cannot be said of Nazis.

                      Solely because you like antifa and dislike Nazis, though they are not terribly distinguishable.

                    2. “…I realize you’re itching to find some connection between Nazis and modern American progressives…”

                      Anyone conversant in Hitler’s rise to power really doesn’t have to do much digging.
                      Read “The Wages of Destruction”, Adam Tooze.
                      If you can. It has numbers in it and some words of more than two syllables.

                5. America is not antifa. Antifa are a bunch of soy and quinoa eating tweens from the suburban areas playing at being tough. If they go into either nogo urban areas or rural areas, they will have, as they have found, their asses handed to them. Antifa are not antifascist, their tactics and beliefs are fascistic. This argument on your part, like most of your reasoning, is ignorant, chooses to omit facts, and is honestly simply stupid.

        2. If you mean they steal the ideas of building walls around undesirables from the Left – you got that right.

    3. You’d think actual fascism would pique his interest

      OK Tony, you’ve piqued mine.

      What actual fascism?

      Let’s have some examples. You’re saying *actual* fascism, not ‘wants to be’, ‘tries to be’. What’s he been doing?

      1. Tony’s been reading Goebbels arguments for socialism lately, and has decided he wasn’t a Nazi.

      2. Tony has argued for years, here on this site, that holocaust victims didn’t possess a right to their lives–because their government didn’t say they did. He’ll also defend the claim that Rosa Parks had no right to sit on a public bus–because the government said she didn’t. His moral compass isn’t broken. It’s non-existent. He can’t even find enough of a moral compass to defend himself against charges of antisemitism and racism in that regard.

        He’d rather claim that our rights don’t exist unless the government says so than acknowledge the existence of our rights apart from government. If blessed by the authorities and told to do so, Tony would march us libertarians up against a wall and shoot us without hesitation.

        We’re talking banality of evil stuff here.

        There is nothing in his mind with which a principle could gain traction. I can’t emphasize it enough–he believes your rights only exist because the government says so. If the government said that we should be killed and our possessions distributed to the poor, there isn’t any reason why he’d resist that.

        And he throws words like fascism around.

        1. Your problem is you can’t understand the difference between “is” and “ought.” If you can’t understand that, why are you to be trusted with right and wrong? The world is all perfectly OK just as long as people have theoretical rights, regardless of whether they have any real ones?

          Do you need to pretend like you’re saying something meaningful in order to justify decades of attempts to deny people tangible rights on the basis that, in theory, in some quantum reality, they actually do have rights as long as they get rich enough?

          1. The reason Tony doesn’t deny believing that our rights only exist if the government says so is because he believes that our rights only exist if the government says so.

            He genuinely believes that if the government said it was okay to violate our rights, not only would it be okay to violate our rights but also, in Tony’s mind, our rights wouldn’t even exist.

            On the one hand, Tony says that Jews didn’t have a right to their lives during the holocaust because the Nazis said so. On the other hand, he’s calling other people “fascist”.

            How embarrassing!

            The idea that our rights only exist if it behooves the government to protect them is central fascism. If anyone here is a fascist, it’s Tony. Meanwhile, violating our rights has negative consequences in the real world–regardless of whether governments choose to recognize them. See Venezuela, the USSR, and Nazi Germany for examples. If violating our rights has negative consequences in the real world–despite the government refusing to recognize them–then our rights exist in the real world regardless of whether the government in question recognizes them.

          2. So, then why are you so worried about fascism? If the only rights you’re concerned with are those that those people with power allow you to have . . . then what’s the difference?

            1. What difference does it make if you don’t have a right to free speech because you’re not rich enough to afford your own publishing platform or because the government will kill you if you don’t obey?

              And if there’s no difference, then what does it matter what you are forbidden or compelled to do?

      3. Anti-communism (even though there are no communists around), anti-liberalism, romantic nationalism (or Trump’s version of it, humping the US flag), xenophobia and white supremacy,

        “The leader proposes that only he can solve it and all of his political opponents are enemies or traitors.”

        –Stanley, How Fascism Works

        Those are almost the exact words Trump uses to describe himself.

        The man put his particular flavor of undesirables in concentration camps. I mean, he did that. And you guys were perfectly OK with every last minute of it.

        1. “…Those are almost the exact words Trump uses to describe himself…”

          Lies from proggy shits =/= argument or evidence, proggy shit.

  10. Well, this interview brought out the predictable screeching. More guests like this, Nick. For the love of your magazine…

    1. Too late for the magazine I’m afraid.

  11. Sometimes it’s best if the people who win elections, lose elections. Senseless violence sounds like a compelling reason.

    1. It works. The 1972 LP platform became Roe v Wade. By next election the Prohibition-Republican Comstocker Coalition was spewing demands for an Amendment to strip women of individual rights. Snipers began shooting physicians at the breakfast table as arsonists for Jesus and Army of Ghawd hillbillies with green teeth fanned out on a Crusade to bully women and vandalize clinics. All BLM and Antifa commies did was follow the fascist example. You wanted initiation of force? Congratulations!

  12. But Trump got 2 scoops of ice cream. TWO SCOOPS!!!

  13. Glenn Greenwald is a piece of shit who hates America and Israel and loves black cock. He is a fucking fag dipshit and I hope he does. Fuck him. He is a buttfucker.

    1. You’re lying. He does not love black cock.

    2. Oh look, Tony’s trying to astroturf as a “homophobe” AND enjoy his two minute anti-Greenwald hate at the same time.

      1. If Greenwald were 40 years younger, Tony would probably be interested.

    3. Note to foreign readers: The above is a political message from the Bring Back Nixon caucus of the Republican party.

  14. Ha! I’m finally getting to the full interview. Glen is spitting fire. It’s like he’s one of the commenters here.

    A couple of bullet points:

    o His colleagues wanted to maintain their cocktail party invites.
    o Jim Acosta’s self-aggrandizing book based on Trump’s “mean tweets”

  15. I disagree partially with Glenn on one issue. I agree that Google/Facebook et. al. initially didn’t want to censor conversations and controversial topics. I also agree that it was the Media and journalists that demanded they start doing it. What I don’t agree with is that Google/Facebook resisted it. I believe that once journalists started pressuring them to censor, GoogleBook was happy to oblige because they were ideologically aligned.

    1. Why climb to the top of that ladder unless you intend to pull it up out of the crowd below?

  16. @38:00 Nick starts asking where this anti-free speech, slavish devotion to “diversity” etc. has come from.

    Well, Nick, I love you like a red headed stepchild, but there are some icky alt-right white supremacist types you might have been interviewing over the last couple of years who would have:

    1. Warned you it was not only coming, but was here and likely to get worse if people didn’t start aggressively pushing back.
    2. Explained, in excruciating detail exactly where this ideology came from, what it was tied to, even showing you where the bodies were buried.

    But your younger staff probably would have balled up on the floor in tears over you even having a skype call over it.

    1. Glenn responds to Nick: (paraphrased)

      When people started warning about what was going on in college campuses, I didn’t pay much attention to it because, hey, I was in College and I believed a lot of things I grew out of. But these millennials didn’t grow out of it. They still believe these things and their getting into their 40s and having positions of authority.

      1. Was having a discussion with my son yesterday. He was complaining about how his generation is getting stifled and showed me a graph showing how boomers gained far more in income than gen X adjusting for age.

        Looked at the graph and said “well we sure kicked ass didn’t we?”

        1. Now normalize for impact of technological change. Computers, shipping improvements, and plastics all worked to completely revolutionize the economic structure.

          1. The left has a curious take on economics:
            A) Incentives like housing bums in San Francisco hotels have no effect on the number of bums in San Francisco, but increasing taxes on cigarettes will lower the number of smokers! Amazing.
            B) (ever since a lefty imagined s/he learned what “externalities” meant) All externalities are negative! If the gains and losses weren’t anticipated, they must be negative, since our ‘betters’ always know with they’re doing!

    2. Christ on a crutch, Nick, can you please tell me how much I need to donate so you can hire Greenwald to the staff?

      1. Charles Koch would never allow it.

      2. My donations have changed drastically this year.
        The rioting in the streets should have begun in February or March, and it should have been against the state and city government lockdowns.
        If an outfit supporting legal action is not involved in that aim, they are NOT getting any money.

        1. I think we could all agree on those conservancy places that help the sea turtles though. Everybody likes turtles.

          1. Call me a specieist; I tend to find protection from government coercion more important than that.

    3. Good summary by Greenwald:

      The:

      Wall street
      Military
      FBI
      CIA
      Silicon Valley
      Democratic party

      Coalition.

        1. Also Multinationals.

          1. I was detailing exactly the list that Greenwald detailed. Of course one can add more, I just thought Greenwald making a list… and enumerating it was important to hear.

    4. “But your younger staff probably would have balled up on the floor in tears”

      Can you imagine how supermad ENB is that this interview happened.

  17. You are spot on! All Trump had to be was sort of kind instead of vile. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should all be in prison as war criminals!

  18. The rioting in the streets have to have begun in February or March, and it have to have been against the state and city government lockdowns.
    https://www.divineleather.com/classic-riding-chaps-with-thigh-pocket/

  19. Really disappointed Nick wasn’t wearing his jacket.

  20. You are spot on! All Trump needed to be was kind of type rather than vile. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should all be in jail as warfare criminals!
    https://dealmarkaz.pk/solar

  21. The advantage of Greenwald not being libertarian is that he was able to bitch-slap an obnoxious conservative on national teevee without any of the pansy-lib crowd whining about violating the NAP be giving even better’n he got. Dunno abt Merrie Olde, but the guy is a national hero in Brazil.

  22. Now that the election is over suddenly “Libertarians” realize Joe Biden is a militarist, a corporate servant, illiberal, corrupt to his core and demented. Pathetic ……

    1. Yeah, but Nick thinks he’s an ‘adult’ so that makes it ok.

  23. Why can’t Reason be like Greenwald instead of carrying water for the progressives and never trumpers? Exactly.

  24. posting stories and videos with titles like “No Matter the Liberal Metric Chosen, the Bush/Cheney Administration Was Far Worse Than Trump” and “The Three Greatest Dangers of Biden/Harris: Militarism, Corporatism and Censorship, All Fueled by Indifference.”

    Oh, so nothing about the wars that Obama inherited from the Busheviks, as your main page title link claims with “the Moral Evil of Bush’s and Obama’s Wars.”

    And you Conservatives want to peddle the myth that the term racist is being overused.

    1. No, we point out the fact that it is, lefty shit.

  25. “The Three Greatest Dangers of Biden/Harris: Militarism, Corporatism and Censorship, All Fueled by Indifference.”

    Good to know that be promoting that, you Conservatives are starting to confess that today’s Democrats are in fact Center Right.

    So when will the other side of your mouth be documenting the fact that your fellow Conservatives who call the Democrats Socialists/Communists/Marxist are nothing but psychopaths/sociopathic liars?

    Even AOC is merely advocating for a return to Free Market principles (you remember those don’t you, before Ronald, the destroyer of shared prosperity and the middle class, Reagan kidnapped and murdered the Free Market – where the government’s job is to regulate against force/coercion, fraud [say goodbye to Conservative Media as we know it today], and monopolies [like the overwhelming monopoly that Finance currently has over Labor allowing for the coercion of those who do the actual work that adds that value that creates the wealth]) and for a return to a tax rate that is lower that what president Eisenhower had.

    1. Oop’s typo: “by promoting that” not “be promoting that”.

      1. I feel very mad that your mom drank while pregnant with you.

      2. Lefty shits wouldn’t make asses of themselves nearly as often as the do if they learned to read, lefty shit:

        “Biden believes the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.”
        https://joebiden.com/climate-plan/#

        It’s his platform, lefty shit.

    2. OH
      EM
      GEE,
      I missed this gem:

      “…Even AOC is merely advocating for a return to Free Market principles…”

      Kuni, fuck off and die. The world deserves to become more intelligent.

  26. So while will the other facet of your mouth be documenting the truth that your fellow Conservatives who call the Democrats Socialists/Communists/Marxist are nothing but psychopaths/sociopathic liars?
    https://www.divineleather.com/product-category/leather-chaps-chaps-kids/

  27. Greenwald has been sucking Trumps little c*ck since day one. Only good explanation is he hopes to get Snowden a full pardon.

    1. Whose ass are you sicking lefty shit? We’d be more than happy if you caught a terminal illness from AOC’s shit.

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