Reason Podcast

Who's Right on Impeachment: Rand Paul, Justin Amash, or Jeff Flake?

Libertarian-leaning legislators have markedly different ideas about the I-word. What say the Reason editors?

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Sen. Rand Paul (R–Ky.) says it's a "fake witch hunt" ("BASTA!"). Rep. Justin Amash (I–Mich.) is in the same "impeachable conduct" camp he's been in since May; adding such recent commentary as "Nearly every Trump ally's defense has been an effort to gaslight America." And now-retired Rep. Jeff Flake (R–Ariz.), from the much-hated temperamental center, has in this morning's Washington Post charted out a third way between those two poles, arguing that "the president's actions warrant impeachment," but that Flake still has "grave reservations" about launching those proceedings, so instead wants elected Republicans to not endorse the president's re-election because Trump is "manifestly undeserving of the highest office that we have."

So which of these libertarian-leaning legislators, current and former, has the better argument? That's the subject of this week's editors' roundtable edition of Reason Podcast, featuring Nick Gillespie, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman and Matt Welch. Is it possible or meaningful to separate out impeachment proceedings from articles of impeachment from a Senate conviction thereof? Are there important differences between Trump's conduct and that of previous administrations? What is the role/position/rooting interest for those outside of the two corners? We talk through all of this and more, while fighting a losing battle against profanity, invoking Inception, and explaining how all art is basically a primer on management.

Audio production by Ian Keyser and Regan Taylor.

'Rocking Forward' by XTaKeRuX is licensed under CC BY 4.0

Relevant links from the show:

"Trump's Civil War Tweet Is Bad. This Other Tweet May Be Unconstitutional." By Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"Whether Trump Stays or Goes, We Need To Rein in Presidents and Congress," by Nick Gillespie

"Did Trump Commit a Crime by Seeking a Ukrainian Investigation of Joe Biden? And Does It Matter for Impeachment Purposes?" By Jacob Sullum

"Evidence Increasingly Indicates Trump's Ukraine Pressure Tactics Usurped Congress' Power of the Purse—and that he may have Committed a Federal Crime in the Process," by Ilya Somin

"Did the President Commit Witness Tampering?" By David Post

"Is Impeachment a 'Constitutional Duty'?" By Keith Whittington

"Trump's Ukraine Call Was an Abuse of Power—and This Time, He Can't Claim Ignorance or Inexperience," by Peter Suderman

"John Yoo Warns That Impeachment Would Undermine Presidential Power. That's the Point." By Jacob Sullum

"Whistleblower Report Alleges Trump Used Presidential Power for Personal Gain," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"Congress Should Not Be Satisfied With Ukraine Call Transcript, Given the Trump White House's History of Fiddling With Records," by Eric Boehm

"Nancy Pelosi Announces Trump Impeachment Inquiry Over Ukraine Scandal," by Billy Binion

NEXT: Why Is the Colorado Governor’s Office Trying to Censor Rural News Outlets?

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. The primary problem with impeachment in general is its use to redo elections. Thus was the case for Andrew Johnson, for Clinton, and for Trump. Nixon was the only proper case, and that was so obvious that he reigned and aborted the process.

    Sure, they could impeach Trump for any number of things. But Obama was just as bad, if not more so, blatantly violating the Constitution with his pen and phone, and I don’t recall the House GOP going anywhere near as apeshit crazy as the Dems and AnybodyButTrump crowd have been for three years now.

    1. Fun fact about Nixon. He only resigned because the Republicans in the Senate convinced him it was best for the country. While, a trial was going to occur it was not at all clear that he would lose. In addition, his planned defense was to bring out all of the skeletons in the closet and show how Johnson and Kennedy had been guilty of much worse than he was accused, and they were, and were never impeached thus his conduct could not be considered impeachable.

      I wish Nixon had fought it out. His resigning allowed the media dn the Democrats to rewrite history to say that everything was wonderful until this one bad guy was elected President. Had Nixon demanded a trial, the public would have seen that the intelligence community and the FBI had been corrupted and used against the American people long before Nixon and Nixon if anything was less brazen about it than the two previous Presidents.

      Had that happened, the public would have demanded real reform and the FBI and IC could not have avoided accountability by pretending it was all Nixon and his crew that were the problem.

      1. I was around in Nixon’s time and I’m glad he resigned. The country was as badly divided as today, and the trial would have made things worse. Ford’s pardon saved the country from going ahead and doing the same thing after he resigned. Seemed right at the time.

        1. I think there is a good case to be made that way. We will never know the counterfactual. But, we did and are playing a huge price for allowing the FBI and CIA to blame everything on Nixon and avoid accountability for their many sins.

        2. Ford’s pardon established a corrupt bargain where each administration would hold the prior harmless for its crimes, and in return expect the next to hold it harmless in turn. A bargain that is only starting to break down because the Democrats are making it clear that they’ll seek to destroy Trump after he leaves office regardless of what he might do. If they had just accepted losing that election he was going to keep the bargain in violation of his campaign promises.

          Burn the whole stinking sewer down, and salt the ashes. Literally, if they manage to remove Trump.

          1. Yes, Trump hasn’t allowed the DoJ to properly flay Hillary.

            But that may be changing.

      2. Had Nixon demanded a trial,

        there would have been at least one an assassination attempt.

      3. “Fun fact about Nixon. He only resigned because the Republicans in the Senate convinced him it was best for the country.”

        The first impulse of the Republican establishment is *always* to cuck.

      4. You are correct, the only difference is Nixon got caught.

    2. Eff Rand. Amash is right.

      The correct libertarian attitude was captured by one of Ron Paul’s key advisers during his Presidential campaign. To the question of “What do we do if Ron Paul actually wins?,” he correctly answered “We immediately call for his impeachment!”

      1. So Libertarians are morons? Okay.

        1. Trying to explain this to you would be like explaining calculus to a pug. You will go to your grave proudly wearing your GOP shackles. You will never be free.

          1. Finally electing a President who shares your values and then immediately trying to impeach him is retarded. It is not even a funny joke.

            Better a servant to intelligence than a slave to stupidity. So, I will take a hard pass on your offer to join your ranks. Does it ever get old being dumb? Just a little?

          2. There’s those tribes again. Always putting people into them despite you claiming you dont.

      2. Amash. The one who hasnt said one critical word about the IC and its investigation of a politician they merely disliked? This is why you’re fucking ignorant.

      3. “Chipper Morning Wood
        September.30.2019 at 4:47 pm
        Eff Rand. Amash is right.”

        The squish?

        Hi there, you’re new here so you probably don’t know, but this is a libertarian site, not a site for volunteers looking to be irrumated by squish Republicans

      4. “Amash is right”

        Interesting. Amash has made it plain that he is building his brand as the anti-Trump. I’m not sure why anyone would still buy any of his objections as sincerely held, unless they’re still flush with oxytocin from his very short stint as an ineffective maverick in congress. I guess he fooled more people than I thought with that run.

      5. When did Amash call for Obama’s impeachment? I must have missed that.

    3. “Nixon was the only proper case…”

      Nixon was the last president to end a war (which he did not start). He also ended the draft. Those two things are best that any president in my 67-year life has done and override every Watergate crime and all the bad legislation he signed, combined. The victims of his crimes were just politicians like himself.

      1. He also created the EPA and the War on (Some) Drugs.

        1. And he opened up Red China. He was a craven, smarmy creep, but not our worst Prez for policy.

      2. And opened trade with China

        1. Nixon was a good and wise, benevolent man, for opening up trade with China.

          The Trumpster-to-the-Dumpster is trying to shut ‘er down! He is an evil, selfish, short-sighted, narcissistic pig! And those are some of his finer points!

          1. “Trumpster-to-the-Dumpster”
            Simply because the rest of their posts are so fucking ignorant, I’m guessing lefty ‘tards spend most of their time thinking up nick-names which would embarrass grammar-school kids.
            Fuck off and die.

            1. Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!

              So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…

              Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:

              Hi Fantastically Talented Author:

              Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.

              At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.

              Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .

              Thank You! -Reason Staff

              1. Wow! You really think Reason would want him? He may kick your ass daily, but Reason got all woke and is purging anyone right of Mousie Dung.

    4. “The primary problem with impeachment in general is its use to redo elections.”

      This statement is true but impeachment is only mechanism the constitution provides to remove a president (or other federal elected official). If we had a parliamentary system we could use a vote of “no confidence”. Or the founders might have included a recall mechanism. It is clear that they foresaw a need to remove a President and provided the mechanism of impeachment. Perhaps the fact that it has been used so seldomly suggests that they were correct in there choice. It is also true that the founders set a high standard for removal. If the President is removed it will be because a very broad group of the country supports the action and want the election results changed.

      1. Conservatives here on these comment pages will support a supposedly “conservative” POTUS, no matter WHAT happens! If we have elected an asshole dictator wannabe, and his asshole-ishness only becomes TOTALLY apparent later… Think Hitler 1933-ish… If Weimar Germany had “impeached” Hitler in some way or another, conservatives would have been hollering, “Ya bastards! Yer un-doing the elections”!

        1. And we have the first idiot that Godwins himself.

          1. You breathe oxygen, and Hitler breathed oxygen. You are just EXACTLY like Hitler, so no one should listen to a damned thing that you say!

          2. Nimrod says that the Trumptatorship must be sending millions of us to the gas chamber before comparisons to Hitler will be allowed…

            1. “…Trumptatorship…”

              Simply because the rest of their posts are so fucking ignorant, I’m guessing lefty ‘tards spend most of their time thinking up nick-names which would embarrass grammar-school kids.
              Fuck off and die.

              1. Well yeah, the ones with 3-digit IQs wise up and stop being ignorant leftists.

              2. Fressen Sie bitte meine nackt behaart grosse schlange.

            2. Nimrod says that the Trumptatorship must be sending millions of us to the gas chamber before comparisons to Hitler will be allowed…

              Hun, you need to actually look at the Nazi party program; it reads like the political program of Hillary, Sanders, and Warren.

              Trump is merely an inarticulate, inept manager with a knack for self-promotion, a moderate political program, and an ego the size of Manhattan, but he’s the antithesis of a fascist. He’s the kind of person fascists like to persecute, disown, and execute.

              1. So I will be executed by a NON-fascist Trumptatorship then! Good to know!

                1. Why would Trump execute you? Have you murdered anyone?

                  It was the Obama administration that weaponized state institutions against political institutions and enriched its cronies via the state.

                  As you may have noticed, much of the federal government is in rebellion and resistance against Trump. He couldn’t order them to bring him a ham sandwich, let alone execute political opponents, even if he wanted to.

                  Your allegations and insinuations are absurd.

                  1. “Why would Trump execute you?”

                    Because all who oppose Trump are guilty of treason!

                    https://reason.com/2019/10/01/in-todays-america-everybody-who-disagrees-with-you-is-a-traitor/
                    In Today’s America, Everybody Who Disagrees with You is a Traitor
                    Throwing the word “treason” around, unmoored from its actual meaning, is a weapon for delegitimizing political opposition and dissent.

                    1. Because all who oppose Trump are guilty of treason!

                      If I tell you that it was really stupid to drink poison and that you will die from it, that’s not the same as poisoning you.

                      Try again.

                    2. The words “traitor” and “treason” have been thrown around so much in the past few years that basically they have lost all of their original meanings. Today the words mean nothing more than “You disagree with my political beliefs so you must be a traitor trying to instill your treasonous beliefs in all *real* Americans, like me.”

                    3. Didn’t mean to step on toes, posted before I saw next article in email blast.

        2. As if the liberals on these comment pages wouldn’t support a supposedly “liberal” POTUS no matter what happens.

        3. If we have elected an asshole dictator wannabe, and his asshole-ishness only becomes TOTALLY apparent later… Think Hitler 1933-ish

          Fascists hated free markets and big business; they would have locked up and killed Trump. Fascists like industrialists like Eric Schmidt and Tom Steyer: billionaires who put themselves at the disposal of the state.

          You know whose political program and views are like that of German and Italian fascists? Sanders, Warren, Harris, etc.

          Conservatives here on these comment pages will support a supposedly “conservative” POTUS, no matter WHAT happens!

          If by “conservative” you mean “not a fascist/socialist/progressive”, you’re absolutely right: Trump is better than any of the Democratic candidates, because they are all fascists and/or socialists. (Well, almost all: Biden is simply corrupt, senile, and incompetent.)

      2. Moderation4ever
        September.30.2019 at 5:41 pm
        “The primary problem with impeachment in general is its use to redo elections.”
        “This statement is true but impeachment is only mechanism the constitution provides to remove a president (or other federal elected official).”

        Yes, and you’ve yet to address the comment. Try again, without changing the subject if you can.

    5. Last month I have made $19365 by working online from home in my part time.I have made this income in my very first month of joining and that was awesome.I am a college student and doing this job in only my part time.I want you also to join this and start earning online right now by follow details on this link…. http://www.works55.com

    6. As an ideological Anarchist, I’m in favor of anything that weakens the power of government. I’m also eager to see the impeachment *investigation*, because it may very well dig up impeachable (or at least lose-the-next-election) dirt on other politicians too. Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it — in spades.

  2. I think the right course of action here is to audit the Federal Reserve, end foreign military engagements, and abolish the income tax.

    1. ^^^ libertarian leaning.

  3. “leaning” lost meaning
    new descriptor required
    how ’bout FlaMashish?

    1. From one haikuist
      to another, I declare
      well done and on point.

      1. Also please don’t judge
        my poetry based on these
        not my finest work

        K I’m done

        1. my problem becomes
          five-seven-five dominates
          cubism syntax

  4. Who is right? The one saying that there’s still less evidence of misconduct in the Trump campaign and administration than there was in, say, the Obama Administration. Or the Clinton Administration. Or the Clinton Foundation. Or in Chelsea Clinton’s career. Or in Hunter Biden’s career. Or in Al Gore’s career. Or in Dubya’s career.

    1. If they impeach Trump, future historians will marvel at how it was that it was Trump who was impeached and not his two predecessors who gave the country the Iraq War, mass illegal surveillance, the Libya intervention, the assassination of an American citizen, used the IRS to punish their political enemies and so forth.

      1. Yeah, but those other guys weren’t orange, so how could they be that bad?

  5. When your case against Trump is so retarded Jeff Flake isn’t buying it, you need to find a new case against Trump.

    1. Flake just realizes how brainwashed, kept and impervious to facts you rightwingers are. An analogous situation would be deciding the best way to coax a lunatic out of his house so that he can be treated at the hospital.

      1. Everyone is crazy but you. Keep telling yourself that retard. Having a poor grasp of reality makes living with your low IQ worse not better.

      2. Flake sold himself. He’s literally for sale.

      3. I’ve never seen a Flake white knight. But it makes sense if you are actually Jeff flake

      4. Pelosi just realizes that there are still a lot of gullible fools like you; she’s hoping she can make it across the finish line just one last time on your backs.

  6. Since all of Trump’s impeachable offenses seem to stem from Twitter comments, it seems like we could just bomb twitter and everything would be OK.

    1. I could get behind that. How about we just throw Jack whatever his name is down a live volcano as a community sacrifice for all of our sins and call it a day?

      1. It’s such a simple solution and the fact that no one even suggests it makes it seem like the media only cares about obnoxious, incendiary comments if the wrong guy is making them. But I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

        1. Any solution that involves throwing some woke tech bro into a volcano can’t be all bad.

          1. I fully endorse this comment.

      2. “How about we just throw Jack whatever his name is down a live volcano as a community sacrifice for all of our sins and call it a day?

        I can no back this solution. How can you be so mean to…..the volcano?

  7. http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/flashback-schiff-caught-telling-russian-pranksters-hed-take-ukrainian-dirt-on-trump/

    But remember kids, it is TREASON to accept dirt on a political opponent from an evil foreigner. That is except when Democrats do it because REASONS!!

  8. “Who’s Right on Impeachment: Rand Paul, Justin Amash, or Jeff Flake?”

    None of the above.
    The Three Stooges mentioned above don’t get it.
    The US Constitution is the correct choice and always has been.

  9. Based on what Suderman has said previously Trump should’ve been impeached already, given all the “evidence” from Russiagate…

    Add his piece from last week in which he gargled the CIA’s balls…. I think we know the answer

    1. #LibertariansForTheDeepStateCoup

    2. Fun fact:

      When Suderman’s wife isn’t making a cuckold out of him, she writes his stories.

      1. That’s not unbelievable since having married him, she obviously ain’t too bright.

  10. Impeachment proceedings should start at the beginning of each President’s term. They should continue for as long the President holds office. During that time nothing else but pontificating should take place.

    1. Combine that with “automatic sunsetting of all laws after X years” and it’s starting to sound like a plan.

      1. I’m on board with that.

      2. cytotoxic has always supported impeachment of BOTH SIDES he just never once in his entire life mentioned the subject until Clinton lost after 2 years of his predicting her electoral ascendance.

        1. Someone reminded me that chemjeff had been banned from Ace of Spades. I reached out to CBD, the guy who banned him, and got the following

          “Yes I remember him. He got banned because we have a hash system that tracks IP addresses. He was running multiple accounts for a while but we could never prove it. Then he slipped up and made a mistake and the hash system caught him. That alone wouldn’t be enough to ban him but he was always constantly running Democrat propaganda to the point where I once caught him copy pasting straight from a Media Matters article and presenting it as his own idea. Even that wouldn’t be enough to get him banned, but one night he lost control or had a break or whatever and posted 700 times in a thread over 4 hours, and 90% of his posts were just trolls. He must have used some variation of “OK I understand you____” followed by a total misrepresentation of what was said 300 times. He was asked repeatedly to knock it off but flatly refused. Even when he was warned he kept doing it. So we kicked him permanently. It wasn’t the first time he had been banned, and the previous time was for the same type of behavior minus the multi-accounting, so no one thought twice about sending him on his way.

          Funny enough he wrote Ace and begged him multiple times to be allowed back, and Ace told him

          ‘I saw the whole thing. The only reason I’d unban you is to kick your ass out again’

          Charlie Brown’s Dildo”

          1. but one night he lost control or had a break or whatever and posted 700 times in a thread over 4 hours, and 90% of his posts were just trolls

            Bad trip? Untreated bipolar disorder? Both?

        2. Holy moly….I forgot about Cytotoxic!

  11. Re: “It’s a fake witch hunt.”

    Grammatical slip or intentional suggestion that we’re only hunting the fake witches?

  12. /takes sip of Murphy’s stout.

    No one is right.

  13. Just finished this podcast and the impeachment discussion brings to mind that scene from the original Star Wars after rescuing Princess Leia and escaping the Death Star Obi Wan is training Luke who is wearing the helmet with blast shield down. Kathryn is Leia, Matt is Han, Peter is Luke and Nick is Obi Wan.

    Take that visualization where ever you would like to go with it.

    May the force be …. oh never mind. ????

  14. The one that drowns is right. The other two are witches.

    1. No dude. Witches float because they weigh as much as a duck.

      1. no, they float because they are made of wood.

        They weigh as much as a duck, because they float.

  15. Trump is very good at what he does. Because he sees no limits or boundaries on himself he just keeps escalating until no one is shocked. It is like living next to the train tracks. Eventually you stop hearing the train.

    Did you know that some types of sharks can live up to 300 years?

    I think this will either backfire on the democrats or make no difference.

    1. Proving yet again, that Leftists Always Project.

      1. “All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject.”

        Carl Jung

        I do not know how much sense that will make to you but it is an axiom in psychiatry and psychology.

  16. Trump’s problem is that he behaves as though it’s still the 1980’s and he’s dealing with the obviously, comically corrupt hacks of the NY/NJ area.

    Now he’s in a world where the really sleazy stuff is perfectly legal as long as the sleazy ones’ public performance is smooth and reassuring, but his signature move is still “cut ’em a check and they’ll look the other way.”

    Which does still work in New York, but…other hotbeds of corruption have raised their game.

    1. Trump’s problem is that he behaves as though it’s still the 1980’s and he’s dealing with the obviously, comically corrupt hacks of the NY/NJ area.

      He’s up against the senile party leadership of the Democrats who themselves don’t know any better. That’s probably why he has done unexpectedly well. He may not know how to deal with AOC, but he knows exactly what he’s up against with corrupt seniors like Pelosi and Biden.

  17. At this point Biden is box office poison. He’s done. He’s a dead man walking. So you can identify the shill based upon their support for Biden. They are going to pump the shills full of cash while quietly backing away from political suicide. It’s why both the Clintons and Obamas suddenly disappeared from all social media a month ago. They knew Biden’s day was coming.

    1. So THATs why Arkansas lost on Saturday!!!

      It all makes sense now!!

      1. No, it’s why Biden wasn’t invited to a DNC fundraiser I attended 3 days ago.

        : )

        I’m sorry. The writing is on the wall for Biden.

        1. Like he can read it. Someone will have to tell him.

  18. Impeachment is primarily a political question, not a legal question. That is, even if Trump’s conduct meets the constitutional threshold for impeachment, that doesn’t mean that Congress should impeach; Congress needs to consider the political consequences of its political act.

    What would the consequences be of removing Trump from office? A market crash, a recession, and the likely election of one of the Democratic frontrunners to the presidency, with their delusional agendas. Is that good for the county? Of course not.

    Among the many bad choices we have, the best option for the country is to stick with Trump and cross our fingers and hope for his reelection, because the alternatives are much, much worse.

    From a libertarian point of view, a ray of light there is that Trump, Congress, and the federal bureaucracy are dragging each other through the mud and exposing just how very awful they are, so hopefully in a few years, Republicans and Democrats will be united in their contempt for big federal government and agree to return more power to the states.

    Actually, in a sense, Biden, Warren and Sanders could also instill the same kind of contempt for the presidency in the American people, but they wouldn’t cause as much damage to other federal institutions, and they would destroy our economy in the process.

    1. From a Libertarian perspective Trump is a mixed bag. Some horrible authoritarian impulses with some good, judicial nominees, prison reform, lower taxes and regulation. Democrats used to at least support civil liberties but are now hostile to them. They are also enemies of economic freedom.
      Time for Libertarians to focus on getting more in Congress and the Senate because we are getting our butts kicked badly by republicans and worse by democrats win the White House.

      1. From a Libertarian perspective Trump is a mixed bag.

        I agree. But I don’t think that’s even the issue. Even if I completely disagreed with Trump’s policies, I’d still oppose his impeachment because the impeachment itself is going to be very harmful to the cause of liberty in the US.

        Furthermore, libertarianism is not going to win by getting big-L Libertarians elected; it has to win by making it common ground between both major parties.

  19. >tries to investigate an illegal spying operation deployed by the deep state against a political opponet of said deep state, him.
    >gets impeached

    We in Real America will consider this an act of naked aggression against a duly elected POTUS and the sovereignty of the People, who if you recall, put him there. I will consider this an act of war by the unelected government against the citizenry.

  20. I came to this site for the first time several weeks ago. I was hoping that I might find some reasoned discussion, both pro and con, on the various issues of the day. Boy was I naive. The site is totally misnamed. Profanity abounds, vicious personal attack are the norm and nearly everyone here is frothing at the mouth. First post and last post. I hope you all rip each others throats out.

    1. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Enjoy Twitter.

      1. The funny part is he doesn’t even know that all those posts were probably from the same person.

  21. Yous guys need to control, how did Matt put it, “Suderman-interuptus”? It’s aggravating to say the least.

    Great podcast. Alway fun.

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