Richard Dawkins: Why Atheism Is Winning
The evolutionary biologist challenges modern dogmas, defends scientific objectivity, and warns against the rise of ideological orthodoxy in society.
Today's guest is evolutionary biologist and outspoken atheist Richard Dawkins, whom Reason's Nick Gillespie interviewed last fall in Milwaukee as part of his "Final Bow" tour. Gillespie and Dawkins talked about why he believes science can't thrive without freedom, why gender ideology is starting to look a lot like Soviet Lysenkoism, and why some truths—like the binary nature of biological sex—shouldn't be up for political negotiation.
Dawkins discusses his new book, The Genetic Book of the Dead, what it means to live in a "colony of cooperating viruses," and why he thinks both religious dogma and postmodern relativism are enemies of progress (as an unapologetic postmodern libertarian, Gillespie argues about that last point).
They also explore how moral progress happens, whether atheism needs a replacement as a social and intellectual movement, and how cultural Christianity still casts a long shadow in an increasingly secular world.
This is a conversation for anyone who believes that science, skepticism, and freedom belong together—and who refuses to kowtow to ideological orthodoxy, wherever it comes from.
Upcoming Reason events:
- Rise Above: Nick Gillespie and Scott Barry Kaufman in Conversation, May 19
- Reason Speakeasy: Susannah Cahalan on The Acid Queen, June 3
- Reason Versus debate: Jacob Sullum and Billy Binion vs. Charles Fain Lehman and Rafael Mangual, June 24
0:00—Introduction
2:06—Dawkins' new book, The Genetic Book of the Dead
6:13—Selfish and cooperative genes
16:50—Heritability, variance, and twin studies
20:50—Cultural change leads to physical change
22:37—Ancient Babylon was just yesterday
24:28—Dawkins' first memory
25:13—New Zealand's "indigenous science" initiative
34:43—"Sex is the only biological binary"
37:46—Gender, transgenderism, and intersex
47:31—The folly of gender "norms"
49:42—Liberal inquiry and the shifting moral zeitgeist
53:15—Atheism's influence on knowledge and culture
57:27—Is Dawkins really a "cultural Christian"?
1:02:00—Death and legacy
1:03:50—Q&A
- Video Editor: Cody Huff
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New atheism went out with Obama. Reason really is slow on the uptake.
Gillespie is the most stuck-in-the-90s guy you will ever meet.
it's like he's never heard of Bret Weinstein
Congrats on winning your eternal prize
Nobody wins a trade war but in the game of morality and ethics, convincing people that there's no greater power, truth, morality, synergism, or objective reality beyond themselves and they shouldn't bother looking for or aspiring to something that's self-evidently not there is the strategy by which you win existence/existentialism.
That's why state atheism worked so well in every country that had it.
If the whole world goes atheist, then it’s me against the world.
I remember being an edgy atheist.
Then I turned 16 and got my driver’s license.
OK, that was pretty funny. Points.
Good riddance to bible thumping idiots trying to contort modern issues like stem cell research into the cave drawing paradigm of what passes for religion these days. " But my book of fairytales says... "
SKY FAIRY!!! FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!
Shrike and his sockpuppets are far smarter than 7 billion gullible suckers and their silly god delusions. Don't they know were actually living in a computer simulation, dude? It's totally proven.
Note that the 7 billion suckers believe roughly 7 billion different things, even if they are nominally of the same faith.
When I was a kid they called it “cafeteria Christianity”. Now it’s called Evangelical Christianity. Choosing some, but not all, Biblical tenets is considered perfectly fine these days.
Yeah, that's terrible. Different people believing different things.
They should be like you and just believe what the party tells them to believe.
And you are going to get Koran thumpers instead.
Enjoy your beheading.
Be nice, they may just push him off a building instead.
No, they aren’t in Putin’s Russia.
Beheadings, or thrown to lions, or burning at the stake, or shot dead in the street, or whatever India is doing to Hindus right now ... etc. It's all nonsense. Religion isn't proof of divinity; it is only proof of mankind's attempt to understand and justify its own existence. " I don't know or understand, so there must be something bigger than me that does."
Look, whatever lets you sleep at night, so long as you aren't hurting other people. But religious people are failing horribly at that last part.
“ But religious people are failing horribly at that last part.”
Every day, in every way.
Shall we discuss atheism's death total just last century?
But religious people are failing horribly at that last part.
Dawkins is as dogmatic and eager to persecute people with incorrect religious views as any medieval inquisitor. Read the last couple of chapters of The God Delusion if you don't believe me.
Bitter leftist atheists are the worst. Dawkins is certainly tedious. The only good thing about him is Lalla Ward.
>> gender ideology is starting to look a lot like Soviet Lysenkoism,
aw ... Unicorn Abattoir's favorite
If Atheism is winning, it would seem it might to gain the ashes of Western Civilization it has been gleefully torching.
Gillespie touting himself as a "postmodern libertarian" is quite the self-own. Nothing like proclaiming that you reasoned yourself into irrationality.
Is the empty life of materialism winning? Is modern "science" really about objective truth and not prescribed orthodoxy taken on faith?
Sorry Dick but you're as infested with religion as those you hate, now get cracking on those DEI statements because the catechism of "diversity is our strength" doesn't enforce itself.
Atheism or nihilism? Given what I’ve seen, I’d say it’s the latter.
Neither. Anti-theism is the Left's current religion. Or, more precisely, anti-"white-theism". Islam is fine. Nobody cries about Buddha, or Ra, or Gaia, or Shiva. But "God" is bad (except if you pronounce it "Allah").
Neither. Anti-theism is the Left's current religion.
^
Dawkins is definitely not a nihilist. He believes quite strongly that there is Objective Truth and that he has privileged access to it. He is also quite confident that there is nothing in this universe that his Lord and Savior, Science, won't ultimately explain and totalize.
The are skeptics who practice intellectual skepticism, and there are Skeptics who believe everything the priests in white lab coats say.
Science damn you!
All commenters: Go to a twitter page, @holland_tom
Tom Holland is a great British Historian, atheist, thinker and polemic. And genuinely funny guy. Search his twitter feed for "Dawkins" and you will be treated to some awesome one-liners on the religiosity of Dawkins' atheism.
Some examples:
Hey all U Fart-Smellers… Ooops, I mean Smart-Fellers… Atheists… Here are some thoughts fer U to stew on!
One God, many gods, or one Government Almighty? Or many Governments Almighty, all fighting each other? Gurus or gorillas, guerrillas, revolutionaries, revolutions, evolution, creationism? SOOOO many choices! What are we to believe in, anyway? Some people have become atheists; I posted about that some time ago… People who think that God doesn’t believe in himself (that He needs self-esteem therapy), and since God doesn’t believe in Himself, we shouldn’t, either… You have doubtless read of my Deep Theories here before, so not to belabor that part of it… My NEW material to post about, today, delves more deeply into examining un-belief …
So anyway, I’ve been having these on-going arguments with my atheist friends, and they told me, “See, Madeline Murray O’Hair, SHE is the ONLY one who REALLY quite properly, understood EXACTLY how God does NOT believe in Himself, and only SHE in Her Devine (Anti-Devine?) Perfect Understanding, was fit to be “Ruptured” through the space-time vortex portal, straight to the Atheist Heaven that She deserved, and all the rest of us… Even the less-than-perfect atheists… Are “Left Behind” after the “Great Rupture”. And since Madeline Murray’s body was never found, I had to accept their argument, She was the PERFECT atheist, and only SHE, in Her Perfect Disbelief, had been Ruptured… Her and Her alone…
…BUT THEN THEY FOUND HER DEAD BODY!!! The arguments of my atheist friends were utterly crushed! I had just BARELY started to think that maybe they were correct! Now, I just dunno WHAT in blazes to think any more!!! What do y’all say, especially you atheists?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair
Ask the objectivist son she never mentioned.
Twat did "the objectivist son she never mentioned" have to say about all of this shit?
I have had shit suggested to me, that she actually and factually WAS transported... Now, do SNOT be afraid; "transported" does SNOT imply that Saint Madeline Murray O’Hair CURSED the "trans" people, in Honor of Dear Orange Leader... she actually and factually WAS transported, I have heard shit said, into Atheist Heaven, BY HER SHEER FAITH IN DEAR ORANGE LEADER ALONE A-LOIN!!! Following her example we can CLEANSE or loins by lusting after Her Majesty, Queen Spermy Daniel!!!
(Just PLEASE do SNOT labor udder the illusion that Dear Orange Leader will EVER equitably "share" Queen Spermy Daniels with YE, OR your silk-soy-boy-milk-ilk, even by the udder-moist devoted sucking of Orange Dick!!! MINE is MINE, damn-shit-all!!!)
Those who claim to have all the answers, do not.
Remove Judeo-Christian values entirely and explain why anybody would think humans are equal to one another.
No other system of ethics did that. Literally none.
So Judeo-Christians think that we're all equal? Is that why the priest (etc.) does all (or almost all) of the talking, and we do the listening? Just like with politicians?
Equal in a moral sense, not in an "equity" sense. Murdering a bum is just as immoral as murdering a priest.
And a lot of Christians are not Catholics and don't think highly of that kind of hierarchical structure in the church.
Amen, Bro!
In the old style Latin Mass, the priest faced the altar (with his back to the congregation) because he was part of the congregation and leading through the service.
Protestants generally have rather silly ideas about what Catholics believe.
I don't really have a dog in that fight. I just get more exposure to evangelical protestants than to catholics.
Nominal Catholics generally have rather silly ideas about what Catholics believe.
Catholic hierarchy versus, say, evangelical protestant is like night and day, though.
In theory most (non-Lutheran) evangelical church hierarchy is basically Laity>Pastor-Elders, rather than Laity>Deacons>Priests>Bishops>Archbishops>Cardinals>Pope.
No other system of ethics did that. Literally none.
My favorite part is the condoning and even defense of Islam.
Unlike Christianity and Judaism which get fuzzy back into antiquity, Islam is more or less all in history books and most of what predates it is cribbed from the bad/worst parts of its predecessors. It is and was a rather obvious retrograde from Mary and Joseph back to the worst aspects of Solomon and Abraham, and their era, that was established and promulgated by a warlord. Even itself condoning and supporting such backward oppression and brutalism well into the modern era and even the current day.
But because Islam will fight back, "Atheists" who don't believe in higher powers or abstract, non-corporeal authorities beyond themselves, respect and even subjugate themselves it.
But because Islam will fight back, "Atheists" who don't believe in higher powers or abstract, non-corporeal authorities beyond themselves, respect and even subjugate themselves it.
And even those immoral Crusaders were worse than modern adherents to The Religion of Peace because there are bad people on BOAF SIDEZ.
“ No other system of ethics did that. Literally none”
Neither did Judaism or Christianity. Don’t forget that the Bible accepts and supports slavery.
The Bible does not accept it.
God will meet you where you are. The people were not willing to give up slavery (it took Christians to kill off the practice) so God informed and led the people where they were able to be reached.
Yeah --- Christianity ended slavery. Atheism would never.
Evangelicals led the global and American emancipation movements and the American civil rights movements. People like William Wilberforce, John Brown and Martin Luther King Jr. used the bible for religious justification.
Furthermore, the Christian portion of the bible stresses equality before God and says that there is "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
The Jewish portion references slavery incidentally as an institution that you would have encountered throughout the Levant, and indeed in every single part of the planet. From Peru to Malaysia to West Africa to Ireland. In fact it was Christianity and Buddhism that forced societies to reckon with the morality of owning someone.
You're a ridiculously ignorant fool, Nelson.
Pretty much all religions preach that all humans are equal in dignity.
And most adherents of most religions largely ignore the precepts of their religions.
I skimmed through the talking points and TARIFFS!!! never came up. Checked the masthead and sure enough this is still Reason.com. Baffled to say the least.
Theologically, Divine Learning (us Learning Deep Lessons) cums about ONLY through our own suffering! Our suffering, then, is the tariffs that we pay for said Divine Learning, from God's Heavenly exports.
If tariffs are good enough for God, they are ALSO good enough for God-on-Earth, AKA Donald Trump! QED!
Scientists dislike him
British scientists don't like Richard Dawkins, finds study that didn't even ask questions about Richard Dawkins
The investigation into science's public image didn't even ask about the atheist professor, but it got an answer anyway
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/richard-dawkins-atheism-criticism-atheist-study-rice-university-science-scientists-a7389396.html
Feminists hate him for his Rape comments
https://cherwell.org/2014/07/29/dawkins-rape-comments-condemned/
His treatment of Aayan Hirsi Ali is trashed all over the Internet
And his right hand man has become a Christian
Richard Dawkins’ Ex-Right-Hand Man Comes to Christ!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_ijfh6JXY0
You are really failing over the past few months , Nick. What is it ???
And here I thought Islam was winning.
Let’s put 100 leftist atheist activists up against 100 Islamist jihadis in a fight to the death.
They also explore how moral progress happens
Uh, easy. Satan. Why are you working for him, Dick?
"Moral progress" is an oxymoron. The fact that the term is even used indicates its satanic design, because it's clearly intended to confuse the person who hears it and lead them away from moral actions.
We don't morally "progress" forward or backwards. We either ARE moral people, or we are NOT moral people. Our thoughts, our choices, our actions, our lives are either moral ones, or they're not.
Sometimes, admittedly, it's difficult to tell what is or isn't moral. Sometimes we know with absolute certainty but want to pretend otherwise (looking at you Taylor Lorenz and anyone else supporting Luigi Fettucinni or Killmelo Anthony).
But if you think murder was OK one day, and then we morally progressed to a new day where it wasn't - you're wrong. Murder is never OK. We are wrong for believing otherwise.
It's not "moral progress" for you to come around to the idea that murder isn't OK, because it's not a subject that you need to sit around and figure out in order to come to a conclusion. It's a foregone one.
I despise this kind of moral vacillation and obfuscation by so-called "intellectuals" who are full of hubris and arrogance, and literally nothing else.
I like how atheists believe morality exists outside of a relativistic, cultural context. Perhaps that's why Dawkins now claims to be a Christian atheist... to be fair to Dawkins.
Christian atheism may seem like a contradiction in terms, but it reflects a more informed and intellectually nuanced position than that of the typical YouTube atheist, who often has no idea where the moral principles he espouses actually originate.
Dawkins now claims to be a Christian atheist
No he said "Cultural Christian," and I completely understand why he said it. I also understand why people intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand it.
He also addresses it multiple times in the podcast.
Morality is just a natural phenomenon, like a field that permeates the universe, akin to gravity. Except, unlike gravity, atheists are able to just exempt themselves from all the bad versions or trappings that would make them seem unenlightened or wicked.
Damn, I just realized this is a parody account. Poe’s Law strikes again.
Damn, I just forgot Nelson is a fifty-center account. Media Matters strikes again.
"Moral progress" is an oxymoron.
Did Christianity contribute to the moral progress of humanity, or did it not?
ask yourself, Is morality a process or a destination?
Oh look! Altruist Totalitarian with no creds, publications or education found something to despise.
“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one."
- Marcus Aurelius
Why does Dawkins have a problem with trannies? Abrahamic religions reject them, and atheism, by definition, rejects the idea of universal truth (unless an atheist says it’s so).
Atheism, by definition, accepts the idea of universal truth. It rejects the idea of subjective truth, based on various books of purported supernatural design, most of which contradict each other.
Even the Bible and the beliefs of people who claim to follow the Bible disagree on fundamental points (like slavery and genocide, both which the Bible is OK with).
If you want to claim that a book that supports slavery and genocide is a moral guide declaring absolute truths, you will probably get pushback from actual moral people.
God COMMANDS us to kill EVERYONE!
Our that them thar VALUES of society outta come from that them thar HOLY BIBLE, and if ya read it right, it actually says that God wants us to KILL EVERYBODY!!! Follow me through now: No one is righteous, NONE (Romans 3:10). Therefore, ALL must have done at least one thing bad, since they’d be righteous, had they never done anything bad. Well, maybe they haven’t actually DONE evil, maybe they THOUGHT something bad (Matt. 5:28, thoughts can be sins). In any case, they must’ve broken SOME commandment, in thinking or acting, or else they'd be righteous. James 2:10 tells us that if we've broken ANY commandment, we broke them ALL. Now we can’t weasel out of this by saying that the New Testament has replaced the Old Testament, because Christ said that he’s come to fulfill the old law, not to destroy it (Matt. 5:17). So we MUST conclude that all are guilty of everything. And the Old Testament lists many capital offenses! There’s working on Sunday. There’s also making sacrifices to, or worshipping, the wrong God (Exodus 22:20, Deut. 17:2-5), or even showing contempt for the Lord’s priests or judges (Deut. 17:12). All are guilty of everything, including the capital offenses. OK, so now we’re finally there... God’s Word COMMANDS us such that we’ve got to kill EVERYBODY!!!
(I am still looking for that special exception clause for me & my friends & family… I am sure that I will find it soon!)
Don’t forget… The above ALSO applies to Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells!!!
The entry point to the above-listed Deep Biblical Analysis is…
No one is righteous, NONE (Romans 3:10).
That means that NOT EVEN THE SACRED FARTILIZED EGG SMELLS are righteous! NO exception was listed for egg smells, fartuses, etc.! And if you follow the rest of the Biblical-literalness LOGICAL argument laid out above, then the Bible actually commands us to KILL said Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells!!!
WHERE are the Biblical literalists when we desperately NEED them?!?!
Out marching to Shibboleth wielding the sword of Jesus, Luther and Adolf?
Shitler AND Dear Orange Leader ARE our Saviors; Blessed Be Their Names!!!
The Ten Cummandments of The Ruthugglican Church SHALL be posted in skuuls everywhere!!!
‘1) Thou Shalt Hang Mike Pence!
‘2) Thou Shalt Execute General Milley!
3) Thou Shalt Honor the (metaphorically true) LIES about illegal sub-humans eating Our Precious Pets!
4) Thou Shalt threaten the lives of judges, their families, and of their pets, if Dear Leader doesn’t LIKE the judges that hear His Cases!
5) Thou Shalt beat up peaceful protestors at Dear Leader rallies!
6) Dear Leader Shall then offer to pay the legal expenses of the beaters uppers.
7) Neither the Number Six above, nor the Sick-Sick-Sick Number of the Beast, shall be construed in ANY way, to mean that the Ten Cummandments are to be applied to The Supreme Dear Leader Himself! We’re SOOO sorry, Dear Leader, if SOME fools accuse us peons of telling YOU twat to do!
8) All the Days of your lives, thou shalt humble thyself, and HONOR The Chosen One, which is Dear Leader.
9) Thou Shalt have NO other Dear Leader, other than THE Chosen Dear Leader!
10) In your times of troubles, Thou Shalt not despair, butt remember that Government Almighty (of the Rethugglican Church; NOT of the impostors, the Demon-Craps) LOVES you and yours! In times of despair, Thou Shalt recall the Uplifting Words of Dear Leader…
“I come unto ye to bring messages of Joy and Peace! Do NOT be confused by the lamestream media, nor by the Demon-Craps, who speak of many strange wonders! They speak of many YUUGE lies, and of half-truths! Some say that I am the Son of God! Some say that I am the Son of Man! Some say that I am the Great White Father! Or the Great Pumpkin! Or the Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpkin-Feather-Father! But I am none of those things! I come to be before you, as an Humble Man, with MUCH bigness to my humbleness… You may simply call me the Chosen One! Even the lamestream media knows this! https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-49429661 The American voters, the REAL, legitimate voters… The NON-Demon-Crap ones, have overwhelmingly chosen MEEE! THAT is why I am the Chosen One!”
And the 11th Cummandment shall be…
’11) Thou Shalt remember, all of the Days of Your Lives, that twatever BAD shit is at hand, that the Demon-Craps have ALWAYS done shit first! So then YOU can do shit EVEN MORE, since THEY did shit first! So long, that is, if’n ye faithfully Worshit Dear Leader. And Dear Leader Himself? HE can ALWAYS do shit! Without ANY ifs, ands, or butts!!! TWATEVER HE WANTS!!!
Your knowledge of Christianity is as low as your knowledge in most other categories.
This has always been the argument against translating the Bible into common languages, going all the way back to the third century - i.e. that people will read the events narrated in the Old Testament and think that they represent behaviors being advocated by the religion rather than a long history of human failing.
There are readable sources on those early babblings. The most worthwhile in recent decades is Heretic by Catherine Nixey. Folks who have never actually finished a book will doubtless evade this one, but it is a hum-dinger, and available in audio by no less a talent than Lalla Ward! The Brazilian site for Audible--knowing a good thing when they hear it--is handing out free samples.
Added to my reading list. It looks fascinating! Thanks!
Another retarded take from you. And as riddled with lies and bullshit, like always.
Like Holly Hunter I answer to irreligious. But I am glad to see Nick in the major leagues, and just as happy Dawkins was managed to be interviewed by someone as competent and experienced at the art. I am loading this up for hearing and rehearing. Will Nick mention the parallels between selfish genetics and Rand's theory of a life worth living as the standard of value? Tune in!