Trump vs. Zelenskyy: Democracy Dies in Drama?

Plus: A listener asks the editors how to best determine whether Trump’s second term is good or bad for individual freedom.

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Trump vs. Zelenskyy: Democracy Dies in Drama?

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Peter Suderman, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, and Matt Welch react to last week's dramatic exchange in the White House over the war in Ukraine between President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

 

04:08—Trump and Zelenskyy clash in the Oval Office

27:30—House Republicans agree to increase federal budget deficit

40:32—Weekly listener question

47:18—Lightning round: National Security Agency sex chats, measles in Texas, and the Epstein files

55:29—This week's cultural recommendations

 

Mentioned in this podcast:

"Say Thank You," by Liz Wolfe

"NATO Could Effectively Die This June," by Matt Welch

"Ukraine Minerals Deal Won't Fix America's Mineral Problem," by Jeff Luse

"U.K. Pledges To Support Ukraine After Trump Snubs Zelenskyy," by Joe Lancaster

"Ukraine Will Fight On, With or Without the West," by Paul Schwennesen

"After the War," by Matt Welch

"The House GOP Budget Blueprint Promises More Borrowing, More Debt, and Not Enough Spending Cuts," by Eric Boehm

"The New Republican Budget Plan Is Unserious," by Veronique de Rugy

"How GOP Fiscal Sanity Died, in 7 Easy Steps," by Matt Welch

"Unvaccinated Kid Dies of Measles in Texas," by Ronald Bailey

"So Much For RFK, Jr.'s Promise of 'Radical Transparency' at HHS," by Ronald Bailey

"The Sad Quest for a Secret 'Epstein Client List,'" by Matthew Petti

 

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

 

Today's sponsors:

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Audio production by Ian Keyser

Assistant production by Hunt Beaty

Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

What are we consuming this week?

Matt Welch

• The Quick and the Dead

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Firefly's Blue Ghost Mission 1 Lunar Landing

Nick Gillespie

• The Return

Peter Suderman

• The 97th Academy Awards

---

Comments

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Listener asks to judge a 4 year term by its first month.

[mad.casual]

Democracy dies when democratically-elected leader publicly and openly dresses down a military dictator for perpetuating a war he can't win.

The magazine has gone completely around the bend.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Trump frightens the sissy-boys.

[5.56]

Modern, educated, competitive types frighten obsolete right-wing nobodies.

[Rob Misek]

The Zelensky rise to power is a surreal US made reality show.

When the US via Victoria Nuland, Geoffrey Pyatt and VP Joe Biden coordinated the coup in Ukraine in 2014, putting Zelensky forward as “president” resulting in a bloody civil war putting families against each other, US funded NAZIS to terrorize the pro Russian population, Zelensky was just a popular comedian.

The US supported his actual presidency AT THE SAME TIME as they launched a popular TV sitcom where Zelensky PLAYED a popular and courageous revolutionary Ukrainian president.

Why? BECAUSE HE KNOWS HOW TO FOLLOW A SCRIPT!

How’s that? Is that enough PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT enough for you?

Who does he work for? The US of course!

Who does the US government work for? They go by many names, Israel, Freemasons, the global Zionist cabal, one world government etc etc. One thing is certain, IT ISNT FOR US CITIZENS!

[Get To Da Chippah]

Zelenskyy wasn't even running for election in 2014.

[Ersatz]

wow - that punchline! really took me out of the tale you were telling

[Truthfulness]

The "obsolete right-wing nobodies" won the election last year. Won the popular vote too.

Perhaps those "Modern, educated, competitive types" are as bright as you make them out to be, hmm? You should really reconsider.

[5.56]

They didn't win. Trump did. He was supported by the useful incels. And now they will have to learn that trump is not your friend and he doesn't work for you. Right wing incels have no friends. Especially not in the white house.

[Social Justice is neither]

Awww, poor commie. Did Trump shut down your USAID funded NGO?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Tony, you’re not good at this. Stick to being a sloppy bottom at your local bathhouse.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Does he walk-a like a sissy boy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeWN9uqAKcE

[5.56]

Trump? I actually thought he does, yes.

[Truthfulness]

You need to get your eyes checked. Doctor's outside.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

No Tony, You ARE a sissy boy.

[SQRLSY]

The Jews, by willfully and stubbornly continuing to LIVE, perpetuated a war against Shitler that that they cun't win, ass well!

[DesigNate]

Even for you, that’s a ridiculous analogy.

[SQRLSY]

Even for you, that’s an amazingly cuntentless post.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Euthanize the Squirrel.

[SQRLSY]

Listener asks WHO is a DickTator, Putin or Zelenskyy? Also, did Ukraine start shit all, by invading Russia, or did Russia start shit all, by invading Ukraine?

(Now just LOOK at twat ye made me do, saying "Hang Mike Pence" and "Hang Volodymyr Zelenskyy"!!! Please STOP making me do these things!!!)

[Rick James]

Your history book goes back to 2019 I see. Impressive.

[SQRLSY]

Has human nature, to include power piggery, self-righteousness, and the blessing of MY Sacred Tribe's political violence, changed, somehow, since 2019? When and where and why did this change happen?

[sarcasmic]

What is a dictator? Why it's what naturally happens when you put a penis and a potato in a blender.

[DesigNate]

Lol

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Imagine calling a country who suspended elections and overthrew a democratically elected president democracy. One forcing men into conscription by force.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

It’s the new libertarianism!

[sarcasmic]

Imagine Jesse making an intellectually honest argument based upon actual facts instead of opinions, using logic and reason.

You can't?

Me neither.

[Don’t get eliminated]

Everything in his posted happened/is happening.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Oh, the drunk knows it’s happening, those facts don’t help him though.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Sarc relies on intentional ignorance to buttress his leftist narratives.

[5.56]

With the right, the ignorance is always involuntary. It's, in a sense, god-given, and they wouldn't know what to do without it. It enables everything they are and do.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Fuck off you pathetic bitch. You’re just a drunk, Marxist bitch that will let your average hobo cornhole you for a sixer.

[5.56]

Your tears are delicious.

[Truthfulness]

He hasn't cried at all. You sure you're not drowning in salt water instead?

[5.56]

Your clearly triggered, seething, obsolete right wing presence is a tell. Happy expiration! We will chuckle and never think about you again, we promise.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

I just like beating up on you Sarc. You’re too much of a pussy to face me down without hiding behind a sock. The only tears I shed are in laughter when we humiliate you here over and over again.

You are an object of ridicule, the butt of a disgusting joke. You are filth.

[SQRLSY]

Hang Mike Pence! Hang All Ukrainians; Putin (Blessed Be His Name) will help us! So Hath Our Dear Leader Cummanded us; So Must Shit Be Done!

[Don't look at me! (No longer muted!)]

Ideas™ !

[5.56]

Imagine calling a country a who. Who does that? Who is your country? Does he start with R?

[Truthfulness]

Who R U?

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

He is another leftist retard with a weird obsession with other males testosterone.

[5.56]

You are clearly triggered because I was able to sense your cringeworthy incel energy through the internet.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Fuck off Sarc, you’re bad at this.

[5.56]

For Jesse that would be Right-wing Underling (RU).

[chemjeff radical individualist]

One forcing men into conscription by force.

I love how Zelensky and Ukraine are held to high standards of democratic conduct that no advanced Western nation would ever meet. That is how you can tell it is just concern trolling bullshit.

News flash, EVERY nation has used conscription in wartime at one time or another. It's not right, it's not moral, it's not libertarian, but it is also par for the course in wartime.

Do we want to talk about Putin's conscription?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-orders-conscription-133000-servicemen-russias-autumn-draft-2024-09-30/

[Don’t get eliminated]

"Do we want to talk about Putin's conscription?"

If we start giving billions of dollars to Putin because "democracy" then absolutely.

[DesigNate]

Anyone coming to our doorstep with their hand out can be held to as high a standard as we choose. Of course the politicians may have lower standards than your average commenter, so take that for what it’s worth.

[Don’t get eliminated]

The politicians are getting paid to support this. Then again so is Lying Jeffy.

I mean, imagine trying to convince everyone else on a message board you're a libertarian for over a decade, and then one day you just show up spout MIC talking points all day over several articles? Either the worst kind of TDS or he's getting paid.

[DesigNate]

I’m inclined to believe it’s TDS.

Or he really is Cytotoxic. That motherfucker let his “Objectivism” rot his brain.

[Social Justice is neither]

LOL you fucking dishonest retard. We're talking about the actions of today and your pathetic ass is dragging up long dead history to even have a point.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Why Pedo Jeffy? Everyone is aware that Putin is a villain. Zelensky is supposed to be a good guy. But a Marxist sociopath pedophile like you can’t understand the distinction. Oh, and this isn’t the distant pass. Zelensky is doing these things now.

Stick to your NAMBLA board. You’re out of your depth here.

[MoreFreedom]

I'm not aware that Zelensky "is a good guy". In fact, I don't like him because I think otherwise. Check out journalist Gonozalo Lira's story, and the list of journalists killed in Ukraine in Wikipedia. That makes Zelensky's closing of Russian affiliated churches look tame by comparison. Ukraine is rated as "Partly Free" by Freedom House, but I'd say they're ignoring how the war makes them worse off. And what to make of Zelensky's stopping of any elections during the war (for contrast, the US conducted elections during the Civil War and every war since.

[Rick James]

Which Democracy dies in drama?

Why Ukraine’s Elections Can Wait

Under normal circumstances, Ukraine would have held elections by now — for parliament last fall and president this past spring. But because of Russia’s ongoing war of aggression, the country hasn’t held elections since 2019, and doesn’t plan to hold them anytime soon. What should we make of this in a country widely praised for its democratic resilience? Is the decision to postpone elections while the country is under attack justified, or does it threaten Ukraine’s democracy?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

This is concern trolling bullshit. In time of war, every single democratic nation has suspended or violated civil liberties and democratic processes of one sort or another.

Do you know how Britain held parliamentary elections during the Second World War? The major political parties conspired so as to make about half of them unnecessary. They simply agreed not to contest a vacancy and let the incumbent party fill the vacancy without an election. Sounds very undemocratic to me!

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-01707-2_7

No, it's not as bad as canceling all elections altogether, but it is not the sterling model of democracy either.

Why is it that Zelensky and Ukraine are held to some insanely high standard of democratic conduct that even advanced Western democracies would fail? Why is it that Zelensky is held to this standard while the actual aggressor, Putin, is held to no standard whatsoever - he holds outright sham elections and he openly murders his political opponents, and yet around here all we here is how much of a dictator Zelensky supposedly is. Why does Zelensky get all of the hate but Putin gets indifference and excuses?

This type of behavior is why many people label you all as affirmatively pro-Russia. 99% of your criticism is directed against the victim of aggression and the state that actually has held genuinely democratic elections this century. Maybe you could spend a little bit of time saying that maybe it's bad that Putin murders his political opponents? Maybe?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

No, YOU are concern trolling bullshit. And all those idiot questions you asked are basically just a drawn out strawman, just like the ones your friend Sarc drunkenly pukes out here right before you deviants runoff to watch kiddie porn and fuck each other.

Everything you said is bullshit. And so are you. I would take time to refute them. But you didn’t really present any facts that required refutation, did you?

Now, fuck off. Maybe you should spend more time moderating your NAMBLA message board.

[5.56]

You sound unstable. Better put the bottle down.

[Truthfulness]

Nothing unstable about calling out jeffy. You have no argument, but rather a revelation that you do not believe in democracy like he does. You really shouldn't defend him.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

Bitch, you’re the worthless drunk here. You’re more likely attacking me because you’re upset that I’m slapping your boyfriend around. If he’s upset, you might not get those Jeffy head pats for being an obedient little Cock holster for him, right?

Crawl back into your bottle.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

Fuck off and die, asshole.

[Nobartium]

Why is it that Zelensky and Ukraine are held to some insanely high standard of democratic conduct that even advanced Western democracies would fail?

If Ukraine isn't a democracy, why would we care that two authoritarian regimes fight each other?

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Apparently holding elections and not stealing money from the US is a high standard.

[SQRLSY]

"If Ukraine isn't a democracy, why would we care that two authoritarian regimes fight each other?"

Often one needs to pick the lesser of two evils... Do you REALLY think that Putin's Russia is the lesser of 2 evils? Do you REALLY think that Putin's Russia is NOT tempted by weakness? NOT tempted to re-assemble the USSR empire out of eastern Europe? Is Ukraine tempted to do ANY of that?

Stop Russia now, at a lower price! Pay me now, or pay me MUCH more later!

[Don’t get eliminated]

"Why is it that Zelensky and Ukraine are held to some insanely high standard of democratic conduct that even advanced Western democracies would fail?"

Because we're currently funding them and risking a nuclear war for them. This isn't that complicated yet you keep missing this point.

Oh, that's right. You're not actually missing this point, you're just lying.

[SQRLSY]

Putin just called me! He says that "Don’t get eliminated ", AKA, "R Mack Who Snorts Smack And Eats Rabbit Turds", should just STOP posting, of ALL shit's stupid cumments! And believe you me, if there's ONE thing that Putin and I agree on, if there's ONE "red line" that we both see, shit is that Rabbit-Turd-Eater's cumments are ALL stupid and evil, AND that they risk "triggering" Poor Little Pootie-Poo-Putin into launching some nuclear weapons!!! He has NO other choice!!!

So R Mack Who Snorts Smack And Eats Rabbit Turds.... PLEASE STOP POSTING NOW!!!!

[DesigNate]

Hahahahahaha, oh man.

You. Just. Can’t. Help. Yourself.

[Don’t get eliminated]

It's truly pathological.

[DesigNate]

I wonder if he realizes that he does it?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Does what?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

What I already said you do above. Or are you hiding from me like Sarc does.

[Incunabulum]

So you're saying Trump can suspend elections?

[damikesc]

You're aware we allied with Stalin in WW II, right? We allied with loathsome and evil people then. But the Soviets, for their faults, more than pulled their own weight. The Brits did as well.

Ukraine has stayed alive solely because we enabled it to occur.

[Incunabulum]

>A listener asks the editors how to best determine whether Trump’s second term is good or bad for individual freedom.

That's easy - is the government losing control over you and are you more free?

[Don’t get eliminated]

I could have sworn what some asshole in Europe thinks about us was the answer.

[Don’t get eliminated]

If Putin isn’t stopped, all of Europe could succumb to totalitarianism.

People could be jailed for social media posts.

They could be threatened with arrest for praying in their homes.

Rape gangs and child traffickers could run rampant.

It’s too awful to contemplate.

https://x.com/profontheright/status/1896390580009394364

[Don’t get eliminated]

I’m such a nazi I don’t want to pay for politicians boob jobs:

Ukrainian MP, Kira Rudyk before and after Ukraine was given billions of US taxpayer dollars.

https://x.com/GarbageHuman24/status/1896741782563774556

[Ersatz]

Well... she'll have a job at hooters after her political career is over...
oh - wait!

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (Trump Ascendant!! )]

I demand access to my investment.

[Bob Straub]

This is off-topic, but I hope someone on the Reason Staff or its fellow subscribers can help. I have been a visitor to R. W. Bradford/Stephen Cox's "LibertyUnbound.com" for many years. Today, after my Google Chrome browser was updated, when I tried to visit the site the response was "This site has been suspended." Does anyone know why this happened? Attempts to send an email were rejected by the Google Mail Delivery Subsystem with the message "Address not found
Your message wasn't delivered to [e-mail] because the address couldn't be found, or is unable to receive mail." Does anyone have any info about the site?
Thanks in advance.

[Thought about __ all my life]

I see the world revolting against your view of things.
Russion didn't invade the US. Z. didn't give us $350 Billion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XyPKofRP00

[Thought about __ all my life]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XyPKofRP00

[Thought about __ all my life]

Sorry,it was pure joy for many of us $350 BIllion and you can't wear a suit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XyPKofRP00

[SQRLSY]

Aid money (our taxes) should be spent on fancy garb to Impress Dear Leader, instead of on killing Russian and North Korean invaders. Gotcha!

Please send YOUR money to buy suits to Impress Dear Leader!