Is the Nonaggression Principle Incoherent?
Economists David Friedman and Gene Epstein debate how best to persuade people toward libertarianism.

Economist and libertarian David Friedman and Soho Forum Director and libertarian Gene Epstein debate the resolution, "The right way to persuade people of libertarianism is by showing them that its outcomes are superior by their standards, without any resort to the flawed nonaggression principle."
Coincidentally, both Friedman and Epstein are 78 years old and Jewish. But as Epstein pointed out in his opening remarks, the comparison ends there. Friedman is the son of the famous free market Nobel laureate economist Milton Friedman and his wife and collaborator, economist Rose Friedman, and was schooled intensely in the art of debate while growing up. Epstein, by contrast, can claim nothing comparable in his own lineage.
Taking the affirmative, Friedman reviewed key arguments set forth in his book, The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism, originally published in 1973 but issued in updated editions since then. Though he does not believe that the libertarian's nonaggression principle, or NAP, is a coherent principle, he also explained that one can do without the NAP in convincing nonlibertarians to accept libertarian solutions to society's problems.
Taking the negative, Epstein argued that what he preferred to call the zero-aggression principle, or ZAP, often plays an essential role in defending the libertarian case for radical reform. He provided examples, including abolishing both drug laws and government's interference with free international trade. He also addressed various aspects of Friedman's view that ZAP is an incoherent principle.
The debate was held before a live audience at noon on June 23 at the Porcupine Freedom Festival ("PorcFest") in Lancaster, New Hampshire. It was moderated by PorcFest leader Dennis Pratt. As Pratt has said, the primary purpose of the six-day event is to induce libertarians to move to the "free state" of New Hampshire.
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Not topping your article with a symbol of white supremacy might be a start.
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So much about libertarianism is incoherent bickering over the worship of money.
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." ~ Matthew 6:24 NKJV”
The delusions of Libertarianism disappear when you accept the obvious - it isn't about eliminating government, but minimizing government/maximizing individual Liberty.
Nor is Libertarianism about "the love of money." Most Libertarians are not rich, nor fanatically and ruthlessly seeking it.
What does that mean in this context?
It means you are either an ignoramus, or a lying leftist propagandist.
I mean, he is a holocaust denying asshole…
The vague platitudes of libertarianism, personal liberty, minimal government are unsupported by concrete platforms.
The complete lack of cohesiveness is both what attracts libertarians and repels everyone else.
The recipe for fascism is to take liberty and add power. When one groups liberty takes precedence over everyone else’s.
How do libertarians punish wrongdoers according to non aggression principles? Compensation with money. The rich are never really punished, wrongdoing is just the cost of doing business, like gods.
When the rich have the power as develops naturally in every monkey exhibit at the zoo, and there are no civilized rules enforced, everyone else becomes slaves.
History repeats.
The vague platitudes of libertarianism, personal liberty, minimal government are unsupported by concrete platforms.
Oh, like your Sportzplatz?
🙂
The complete lack of cohesiveness is both what attracts libertarians and repels everyone else.
Well, your ideology is all-too cohesive and it’s still repellant.
🙂
The recipe for fascism is to take liberty and add power. When one groups liberty takes precedence over everyone else’s.
And you know all about that.
🙂
How do libertarians punish wrongdoers according to non aggression principles? Compensation with money. The rich are never really punished, wrongdoing is just the cost of doing business, like gods.
If Libertarians really believed that, both Germany and the former Communist powers would all be bled dry…and with Germany, it would be for a second time.
🙂
When the rich have the power as develops naturally in every monkey exhibit at the zoo, and there are no civilized rules enforced, everyone else becomes slaves.
Well, your Wickedly Great One wasn’t rich, and didn’t believe in Evolution and “monstrosities half-way between man and ape,” yet he managed to make everyone in his grips into slaves anyway.
History repeats.
No. Historians and mind-numbed drones like you repeat each other.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
I don’t serve God or mammon. “Mammon” i.e. property and the medium of exchange called money, serves me, and, of course, The Holy Bible is a bunch of Grim Fairy Tales and God does not exist, M’Fraulein.
*Tips top hat and tilts monocle.*
Nor do I serve Commissars or Gauleiters, so as always:
Fuck Off, Nazi!
As a lying waste of skin, you are a stranger to the spirit of truth, Kol Nidre boy.
Oh, and you know "the spirit of truth"? Will you and Jeebus use that spirit to "reign over all the Earth"? And on that day when you are a new creature, will your new name be "14 of 88"?
He Shall Reign Over All The Earth w/lyrics
https://youtu.be/AGkkF_xlbY8
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Yes, the spirit is in me.
If you could refute anything that I’ve said, you could refute that.
But you can’t. Hahaha
You are one of the ugly ones on here. Dumb, incoherent. self-important. but worst of all,you think you are profound
You think you are doing the latest atheist thing but you are so behind/ Your type is considerend KKK-bigot like by most modern atheists.
Take Nagel. He acknowledges that YOu and others are stupid to say you are smarter than believers. First of all, you write like sht, no structure, poor diction...
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”(”The Last Word” by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997)”
― Thomas Nagel
I posted this not for you but for the many who diss you and wonder how cogent their remarks are. THEY ARE ON THE MONEY
Don't get me killed, New Guy.
You were being sarcastic, but to be fair, Tony or Mike would definitely call the Gadsden flag "a symbol of white supremacy".
The Gadsden flag does not inherently represent white supremacy, of course. But there is ample evidence that those with views at least sympathetic to those aims have co-opted it.
I once saw a Brother and Sister pair happily chatting and checking out at my register wearing two different but interrelated shirts.
The Brother was wearing an Under Armor shirt with a "Don't Tread On Me" Gadsden Flag.
The Sister was wearing a "We Are All Human" shirt with letters in the colors of the Rainbow, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Pansexual, Bear, BDSM, and Poly Flags.
I thought: "Wow! With people wearing shirts like these and getting along, there's hope for the world yet!" 🙂
Do the generations that came after millennials actually read their shirts? I mean the words are like upside down and shit. I'm triggered just thinking about it.
Could be. These two were living the words, not treading nor being tread upon, and being human and respecting their fellow humans. In the particular store where I work, that is a trigger of great joy from me. 🙂
Did they come into your Texas Roadhouse right after the entire family, including the baby, decked out head-to-toe in the Stars and Bars?
I don't work in a Texas Roadhouse but a retail outlet, but I would not be surprised and I would love to see a whole family decked out in clothing celebrating freedom.
Maybe costumes of Colonial Patriots or Veterans from the various wars.
I see all kinds of good shirts from time to time. Saturday, I saw a T-shirt with a photo of the famous East German guard hopping the razor wire and escaping to freedom. Underneath was a caption giving the beginning and the end dates of The Berlin Wall.
Another great one I see often is a T-shirt attributing the word "Nope" to Rosa Parks. I always tell the wearer that Cedric The Entertainer in Barber Shop would quote Rosa as saying: "I'm Just Tired!". They always smile at that. 🙂
One girl wore a Black and Yellow Voluntaryist shirt, but it was a busy day and I didn't have the time to chat with her.
One Anti-Cancer T-shirt I saw featured all the ribbons of all the Anti-Cancer campaigns and the slogan: "All Colors Matter". A great statement against all the monsters of cancer that could also be taken as a statement against the monsters of racism and sexism.
Another two I seen recently say: "Science > Opinion" and "My Rights Don't End Where Your Feelings Begin.". Neither are a mistake and both are profound.
Good thing he didn't, then.
Only if you listen to Jeff.
That dude is so confused about simple things.
Or his alter ego/sockpuppet raspberrydinners.
Also RFK Jr came to porcfest and asked for a gun free zone for his speech. About 80 feet away from a group of dudes holding a pro 2A speech. Showcasing just how rational RFK Jr is. I don't think 80 feet and garage doors would stop the bullets...
Man, what a wasted opportunity for the person setting RFK Jr up to whip out a magic wand and wave it around "Alakazam!"
"OK, this space is now magically gun free."
"That won't stop people from bringing guns in!"
"Neither will a sign."
The kind of people who kill Kennedy’s wouldn’t be deterred by a sign.
They’re not deterred by anything in writing.
What about the kind of people that Kennedys kill?
Random floozies?
And participants in The Bay Of Pigs invasion and eventually “advisers” in Southeast Asia.
Marilyn Monroe wasn't so random.
Well yeah. And then there was that time that the Lion Of The Senate drowned that chick he was banging. But they've never gotten close to the Clinton's body count.
They should demand Oldsmobile and golf club free zones.
True, but he was probably a lot safer there with that 2A group nearby.
Do any GOP state legislatures allow general carry in the state capitols? Does the GOP allow guns at their campaign events or at conventions? Reasoning from first principles, the answer would be, of course they do.
Incoherent? What's "incoherent" about the proposition that initiating force against another is immoral?
If you listen to Jeff and Mike, cutting off your kids dick or dancing nude in front of kids isnt aggression. The lefts redefinition of words makes the word aggression incoherent. That's all I can think of.
Yes, Pedo Jeffy literally does not think lewd sexual contact with children is assault:
https://reason.com/2023/06/26/federal-judge-blocks-floridas-anti-drag-law/?comments=true#comment-10127667
I really hope his neighbors keep their children away from him.
I really hope his neighbors are armed.
It has exceptions, like his 10th floor balcony example. If you fall of your 10th floor balcony and save yourself by landing on the 9th floor balcony, and the 9th floor resident says you are trespassing, do you follow the NAP and jump off?
Or the rocket one I mention below. Do you steal a 5 cent part to fix the rocket which is the only way to prevent a comet from wiping out 99% of life on Earth?
Or if the only way to stop a mass shooter is to steal a dead cop's gun.
They are silly exceptions which prove the rule.
Just jump to the 8th floor balcony and repeat.
The NAP is only a problem for philosophers. It's not meant to be an absolute. One may always perform a lesser violation to prevent the loss of greater.
Sure I landed on your 9th floor balcony, but I saved my life. Don't like it, I dare you to find a court that will rule against me. I dare you to find a jury that can fine harm in my action of saving my life.
The lifeboat "problem" has been debated to death for a thousand years. Only philosophers have an issue with it. Normal people do not.
The problem is – even if you accept NAP, so what? It doesn’t lead to anywhere else in particular. It exists solely to ‘set the context’ of some other debate. It serves as the ‘everyone please take your shoes off before you enter the debate auditorium’. A meta notion.
The ultimate ethical and moral principles are these:
A.) Learn to build lifeboats and
B.) Your sole desert island page-turner should be a book on how to make lifeboats and survive at sea...with laminated pages and a floating hard cover, of course.
Then you can debate "lifeboat scenarios" and read your favorite Libertarian tome when you get back home. 🙂
The NAP is a valuable general ethical guideline, but it isn’t, as many doctrinaire libertarians use it, a foolproof foundation for deducing the correct ethical rules for everything.
It goes beyond exceptions. The real world is jam-packed with messy situations where one person’s life and property are at odds with or entangled with another person’s life and property.
It takes life experience, knowledge and wisdom, and real-life experience to find the right formulas for liberty and prosperity.
Mike Liarson will decide the exceptions.
"The code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules."
-Hector Barbossa
Yes, exactly! I was advocating piracy!
"The NAP is a valuable general ethical guideline, but it isn’t, as many doctrinaire libertarians use it, a foolproof foundation for deducing the correct ethical rules for everything."
This is in and of itself an incoherent statement. If you cannot rationally deduce your ethical guideline, then it isn't an ethic.
He’s just justifying his hypocrisy.
But deduce assumes first principles and the whole Catholic and natural law background, which a smart and moral person sees as the answer.
Obviously, the fall is not volition, so you can’t be held culpable for trespass, though the 9th floor balcony owner has a right to expel you out his front door in the apartment unit and you can get out from there.
As for the rocket example, there is a way to save the Earth honestly: Fiscal responsibility in advance. As the song lyrics put it:
“This Nickel ain’t worth nothing. For all that it can buy,
But it can help you stand straight up,
And look folks in the eye.
‘Cause if you never lose this Nickel,
Then you never will be broke,
And you’ll always be a winner,
If you never lose hope.”
–Unknown Country Artist with profound lyrics.
Ditto with the mass shooter incident. A society that allows peaceful people to keep and bear arms and to have knowledge ot the weaponry potential of everyday items would not necessitate picking guns off of dead cops.
It really sounds like both of their positions are stupid. The non-aggression principle is at its most basic just about leaving people the fuck alone. Activists can't accept it as a coherent principle because they want to infringe upon others. This zero aggression principle sounds like surrender to another's aggression. The whole point is to leave others alone, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't retaliate when the victim of aggression. Sounds like an attempt to invalidate libertarianism by refusing to identify the aggressors (fitting for reason)
but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t retaliate when the victim of aggression
That’s covered by other ethical principles: “turn the other cheek”, de-escalation, being magnanimous, realizing when it’s not worth it or something bigger is at stake.
In another thread, Idaho Bob linked to a story from his neck of the woods about a guy who shot and killed several of his neighboring family because their son was standing in front of an open window masturbating in front of his daughters.
Totally justified, right? Bob talks about the guy like he was a big hero.
Only thing is when they hauled the guy off, he left his wife and kids with no money. Her relatives had to start a gofundme to help her pay the bills.
While the family should not be fair game for murder, the boy masturbating in front of the daughters could use some pointing and laughing, as well a Salvo of high-speed white paint-ball rounds aimed at the ol' meat-and-two-vegs.
No bloodshed, the pervert gets some much-needed physical therapy and shaming, and the man's family does not lose a paycheck.
See! That would be dealing with the situation with some creativity!
Oh, and put cayenne pepper in the paint balls. 🙂
Of course.
Quite sexist of you Mike. The wife isn't able to earn an income? We should let murderers remain free because they might be the only worker? Your argument is fucking terrible.
The story also illustrates a way in which the NAP is flawed. It has no concept of proportional response. At least the way some hothead libertarians interpret the NAP, someone aggresses against them, they are then justified in any level of aggression in reply.
Proportional response? So you believe in the old code eye for an eye? Huh.
Like shooting an unarmed woman in the face for trespassing?
Mike is describing a looter government's approach to tax collecting fleched out by Lysander Spooner to lampoon the Civil War income tax. For a real-life demo see the Waco Branch Davidians massacred down to the toddlers by Christian National Socialist agents collecting a hypothetical tax on a presumed gun part.
"Being the better person" and "turning the other cheek" is damn hard when you've had your $600+ catalytic converter on your vehicle cut on by potential looters twice in a Year's time, as I discovered most recently when I had a "check engine" light repaired. And, of course, this pollutes the air for everyone, so it is intiated aggression against all who breathe.
Right now, I am fantasizing about a Darwin Award story where the looter's bettery-powered saw kicks back and takes the looter's head off.
As I calm down, though, perhaps a better option would be an alarm and a remote-contolled LRAD device to sicken would-be plunderers with blasts of infra-sonic waves. Hmmm...
Damn! Do you think it was the same people both times?
Most likely the same ring of looters. I work in an awful part of town and near a homeless encampment. I've tried transferring a few times to no avail. The damn place really needs it's own police precinct if they aren't going to let us pack heat at work.
That sucks.
Most likely the same ring of looters. I work in an awful part of an awful town and near a homeless encampment. I've tried transferring a few times to no avail. The damn place really needs it's own police precinct if they aren't going to let us pack heat at work.
Sorry for the repeat.
I recommend Tukong Moosul. It's what South Korean police and Special Forces use. Think of Jiu-jitsu with knives, sticks and guns.
I’ll look that up, albeit most martial arts require years of study and practice. Kung Fu in particular requires progressive toughening of the hands with punching sand, then peas, then pebbles, then trees. Hands that are lethal weapons are too often little good for anything else.
Also, Penn & Teller have pointed out that there is no real objective measure behind the various colors of belts in Karate.
Samuel Colt not only made humans equal, but saved a lot of broken knuckles and fingernails.
Thus is why I call it the Non-Initiation of Force and Fraud Principle and refer to Libertarians as The Knights, Ladies, and Trans-Jesters Who Say: "NIFF!" 🙂
This does not preclude self-defense or retaliation against initiated force or fraud, only initiating force or fraud.
I don't think anything is incoherent about it but that would be called pacifism. And would be limited to pacifism. So what is 'libertarianism"?
See my reply to MasterThief. NIFF! is not starting fights, but also requires being ready to finish them if it is to be a sustainable practice.
Libertarianism is gradual convergence on a minimized initiation of force within a constitutional democracy by a political party wielding law-changing spoiler votes. Look at Newton's method for approximations in any freshman calculus book and there you'll see the mechanics of such iterative processes. Then look for something better in a competing party. Rotsa ruck on that last score.
Pacifism is argued in Aldous Huxley's "Ends and Means." It is known as Surrenderism in libertarian circles. Try it and see why this is so.
I disagree with almost all of the above to some extent. There are NO exceptions to the NAP and it is coherent in and of itself. There are some (rhetorical, usually) imaginary scenarios that are OUTSIDE of the Principle. Aggression is well-defined and, as mentioned above, implies volition and intent to do harm to someone or their property. Obviously accidents and collateral damage are outside of the non-aggression principle. All of the "examples that prove the rule" are examples where the imaginary person does not INTEND to harm someone else and are examples of collateral damage while exercising the right to self-defense or proper defense of others. And all of them can be straightened out after the fact by rational people who subscribe to the Non-Aggression Principle. It's not just a "guideline" if the members of the social entity subscribe to it and use it to form and enforce their laws in a libertarian society.
No exceptions? Let’s go through some simple scenarios. Nothing contrived to make a complicated ethical scenario or anything like that:
1. You see a father and his toddler son. The toddler is petting a dog, and suddenly pulls the dog’s tail, making it yelp. The father gives his kid a hard swat on the butt and yells at him, “That’s not how you treat dogs!”
Did anyone here violate the NAP?
The toddler. The father's hard swat is called discipline. The dog is innocent and the bigger creature for not biting the little lad or lady.
Everyone always makes allowances for the dog’s behavior!
Taking your example seriously for the sake of discussion: adults and children have different definitions of aggression.
The principles of Libertarianism revolve around a voluntary society. However, to achieve that we must have a government willing to use up to and including lethal force against those who would violate the rights of others for personal gain. Some people see that as "incoherent." I see it as objective reality. To have a Libertarian society, you must have people be absolutely ruthless towards totalitarians and their abusive ideologies. In other words, a mostly rational society.
Johnathan, I think it is neither incoherent nor objective reality. A government that uses force - including lethal force - against people who violate the rights of others are not "initiating" the force. They are responding to aggression which is completely coherent with the non-aggression principle.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Spammer
Noooooo!
It's a phishing link with barb and hook, unlike libertrans.blogspot dotcom.
While I would never initiate force or fraud against you, I can, would, and do tell you: No, Go Away, and *NIFF! NIFF! NIFF!*
I'm not sure what a "debate" over the opinions of two experts is or why it makes any difference whether the non-aggression principle is coherent or not. I would be glad to read about strategies that have been shown to be successful at convincing the general public to support libertarian principles in our government but, alas, instead of reading I would have to listen to a prolonged audio to find out what that might be. The non-aggression principle is, at best, a logical construct that stands on its own. The only question is whether the outcome is better or not when it is actually used for a while in society.
"Don't hurt people and don't take their stuff" is a much better introduction to the NAP and libertarianism. There's certainly lots to quibble about, but some of the NAP quibbles (and probably ZAP too, though I'd never heard of it) are breathtakingly absurd, like if the only way to prevent a comet from hitting the Earth is to steal a 5 cent part to fix a rocket, is that moral?
The problem is the left calls misgendering harm but cutting off dicks and tits isn't.
Yes. Every rule can be bent with redefinitions.
Volokh has an interesting woke example today. A white driver admitted causing an accident which hurt a black victim. The victim claimed $3.5 million damages for exacerbating her Tourette's Syndrome. The court said Naw, here's $10K. The WA supreme court overturned it on the grounds that the verdict was full of harmful stereotypes of white victimhood and black laziness and greed. It's about as patronizing as you can get.
Ackshuyally, even near-accidents can bring out the Tourette's Syndrome in anybody of any condition of birth. 🙂 😉
It's as though they can't process two thoughts at the same time. The theft is immoral. Saving life is moral. In the example we can evaluate a net morality, but that doesn't mean it's incoherent to evaluate each aspect. It just sounds like shallow thinking to me
What is so disappointing is that people play these shallow "what if" games to try and gum up a set of logical precepts, thinking that absurdities are the way to disprove a notion.
The Rocket Scenario is absurd on its face because of the fallacy of false choice. There is no plausible universe where the only choice available to an NAP adherent is violating the Principle and Death.
The appropriate response for a rocket owner trying to save the world is to pay for the 5 cent part. Any scenario where that is impossible is a world where consequences don't matter. If it truly is a universe where the owner of a 5 cent part is willing to die rather than yield a part to save himself, then it is obviously a universe where death doesn't matter and being hit by a comet is not such a bad thing after all.
Further, the Non Aggression Principle does not necessarily mean that you will NEVER initiate aggression. It merely is a rationale for determining who is in the wrong when such conflicts arise. Let's say through some convoluted logical gymnastics we could agree on a situation where the Rocket Theory was remotely plausible.
Maybe the owner of the part was unconscious and can't give consent. In that case, you assume that the unconscious person would want to live, and so you assume their consent. After the fact, you can get that consent. If you come across an unconscious and injured person, you assume they want to live, and you cut up their clothing in the process of saving them. That is all in keeping with the NAP, because it is not aggression to assume that a person would want to live, even at the cost of their clothes.
And even if there was a mistake- where you assumed consent and it was not later given- our universe has been preserved and you pay a penalty for using the 5 cent part without consent. "Here is your nickle, good sir, and fuck you for not donating it to the cause."
TL;DR: If you are going to make a bunch of logical leaps to create a scenario of false choices that invalidate the NAP, then I have a whole other set of logical rejoinders that keep it in tact. This is not a shortcoming of the NAP, it is a shortcoming of the person trying to setup moments of crisis to weasel out of a perfectly fine moral code.
Well said. Logical gymnastics aside, the rocket owner who needs the rocket part does not intend to harm the part owner or to steal the part. The rocket owner intends to save the earth from the comet. Either way some harm is likely to happen and, in another post, I refer to "collateral damage" which is not the same thing as initiating aggression. In other contexts critics of free market libertarianism talk about "externalities" or costs imposed on others as a consequence of profit-making activities as a failure of the NAP.
Yep. As long as there are violent people, to have a functioning Libertarian society you need people willing to be just as violent, or even more violent than, those who would violate the rights of others. I call that "militant Libertarianism," the only workable kind.
No, the Catholic principles that underlie our Founding are the Civil Religion of the Founders up through John Quincy Adams to Lincoln for sure, then Coolidge and then Reagan. Past that is sexual immorality, Clinton, racism of Obama, and the disgusting stupidity of Biden
Libertarianism fails on 4 points that always come to my mind
1) Abortion and Homosexuality, both of which destroy society. i won't argue it.
2) The individualism that plays into Nazism, Stalinism, esp Marxism and any thought that denies the basic relationality of all human beings
3) The utter blindness that the fight against religious freedom is introducing in the world. Mindless fools arming the people that will kill them when they get in power. The Libertarians on here think that when the Revolution comes they will be heroes. No, all the worst movements of the last 100-150 years have been 'Political Religions" and they first killed are people like libertarians who have no moral allegiance.
4) the emphasis on intellect is deadly in that most of the evil one sees is BAD WILL, HATEFUL WILL, darkened perverted promiscous will. Like in today's news
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/crime/2023/03/23/aiden-fucci-florida-murder-killing-tristyn-bailey/70040639007/
the NAP principle easily follows from the concept of Freedom of Association.
But that requires support Social Rights.
The other being Freedom of Communication
The 2 modes of social interaction that come from humans being social animals.
It's my opinion that ALL principles follow from other principles, sometimes even in circular fashion. Unless you enjoy philosophical debates to see how internally non-contradictory you can arrange your principles, it's a waste of time trying to tease out the most fundamental principles. For example, the "modified tit-for-tat" strategy developed for game theory is interesting philosophically but also can be applied by individuals and by groups through mutual consent leading directly to the Non-Aggression Principle.
Nope. It follows from understanding that a right is a moral claim to freedom of action. See Tara Smith for many books spelling this out so clearly as to wreck all evasion, equivocation and false premises.
This is a poor attempt to put a smaller meaning to Freedom of Conscience/Religion, which covers both
My experience tells me that principles and utility almost always go hand in hand. Free markets and competition provide more and faster and better progress. Free speech finds truth and lies faster than bureaucrats.
I cannot recall any time bureaucracies have done anything better than free people.
But not always. Human beings are imperfect and sometimes fear - either reality-based or imaginary - takes hold and makes us subject to manipulation by cynical power-hungry politicians.
"[T]hat the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty." —Thomas Jefferson, 1779.
"The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate." —James Madison, 1785.
"Driven from every other corner of the earth, freedom of thought and the right of private judgment in matters of conscience direct their course to this happy country as their last asylum." —Samuel Adams, Speech on August 1, 1776.
"While we are contending for our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the conscience of others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to Him only in this case are they answerable." —George Washington, in a letter to Benedict Arnold.
"Conscience is the most sacred of all property." —James Madison, 1792.
Free people create bureaucracy. The problem is when culture no longer values freedom, and libertarianism is far from the mainstream of any western culture unfortunately. Bureaucracy is just part of administration, which every hierarchy needs. Libertarian bureaucracy is the best because it doesn't view individual humans as units in a process, but as human beings.
Yet libertarian spoiler votes repeal bad laws with about 25x the clout of votes wasted on looter aggressors. This is the whole reason why we win every election--by lessening coercion instead of hiring moochers.
Sorry to whomever I accidentally flagged. It was not intentional initiation of force and you can virtually scourge me if you wish. 🙂
😀
Nobody at Reason pays any attention to the flags, so it’s a bit of a tree falling in the forest that nobody hears. So, arguably no real aggression.
Is this aggression?
https://twitter.com/tylerbowyer/status/1674812010293280779?t=qSZbjBgKasgf9bsFtzesyQ&s=19
Koch (that turned on conservatives for the past decade) sent out an expensive box with a video screen to every major donor in the US.
The content? A $100 million ask to hijack primaries to defeat Donald Trump.
Newsflash: A $Billion couldn’t even buy Mike Pence 10% of the vote.
[Pic]
Not giving the Kochs low paid illegal immigrant labor on the back of your taxes is aggression. Plain and simple.
https://twitter.com/ImMeme0/status/1674949330812190725?t=yM1yT0jmw5wMKQj46O3rbg&s=19
A Frenchman who was trying to protect his car from being burned by violent migrants has his bones smashed and his hand cut off.
This is what Europes Multicultural Enrichment does to its own citizens.
[Video]
Impressively barbaric.
No reports of any bears at this time
https://twitter.com/Iranskiyz/status/1674866197626511375?t=j5gi29ddWVOGeTc09cJl6g&s=19
3 lions, an elephant and a Zebra have been released from the Paris Zoo during last night’s riots in France and now they are roaming free on the street of Paris
[Videos]
How are you supposed to boss other people around if you can't boss them around? And take their money so they can pay you for the privilege?
Who needs angels in the form of men to tell people what to do? We have us.
You are making the case that there is no false conscience.
Just because conscience must be obeyed does NOT mean it is always right. Yes, you must obey but if it is false and is so by your laziness or immorality, you are GUILTY
Uh, sure. Persuade young people to embrace libertarianism. All they have to do is accept freedom, autonomy, and personal responsibility, and give up nanny government, idealistic authoritarianism, and free stuff.
The NAP, within a constitutional political party using platform and spoiler votes to repeal bad laws, cannot be understood by people unable to differentiate a constant or understand that anarco means comunista. Differentiating is not the same as dividing by zero. Once you understand tha tyou qualify as libertarian. Until then, there's free initiative to form an anarchist party and see who tries to copy YOUR platform of vote for your superstitious bootheads.
“anarco means comunista”
Wrong.
IMO - one of the best debates illustrating the conceptual limits of NAP - and including many ideas that can only be called libertarian outside NAP - was the 1960 debate between Bayard Rustin and Malcolm X. Two very different approaches to everything. Far more consequential than some meta debate that doesn't even tough on anything that really matters.
Here is the transcript of that debate
Do you ever feel sad that you were one of the most anti-libertarian commentators during covid and now no one bothers engaging with you?
At least his computer is double masked
That was a remarkably interesting read. Thanks.
I particularly liked this bit: We believe integration is hypocrisy. If the government has to pass laws to let us into their education system, if they have to pass laws to get the white man to accept us in better housing in their neighborhoods, that is the equivalent of holding a gun to their head, and that is hypocrisy. If the white man were to accept us, without laws being passed, then we would go for it.
That's the one I remember too.
THe error is you do not speak for any 'US' You don't
Libertarian parties run candidates expected to take an oath of office if all efforts to make us lose fail. Within this constitutional framework there are some admissions fees communo-anarchists screech is aggression. But the simple fact is the number of countries with comparable freedom is something like three, whereas looter satrapies committed to all possible weaponized aggression number in the hundreds. That is the context anarcho-communist infiltrators drop when fashioning let's-pretend-reality-isn't-what-it-is gedankenexperiments.
Another mystical mohammedan racial collectivist angling for collectivized "rights" that require violence. Great. The test for any "right" is: At whose expense?
The point is that slave traders initiated aggression against Africans at a time when it was acceptable. Slaveholders initiated aggression against Africans when they bought slaves and forced them to work or die at a time when it was acceptable. As slavery became less and less acceptable the people who inherited slaves had to choose between stopping the aggression, freeing the slaves and possibly losing their “investment” by letting other slaveholders force them back into slavery for profit at a time when they were willing to initiate aggression (the Civil War) against an entire region that no longer accepted slavery; and holding their slaves, possibly for their own good.
After the Union won the Civil War, northern industrial workers who feared competition from freed slaves for their jobs – and disgruntled former slave owners – initiated aggression against the former slaves, using police departments to “keep them in their place” at a time when that was acceptable. It is not hard to see why the descendants of former slaves would want to protect themselves against ongoing aggression. It’s not hard to understand how that could be manipulated by religious and political leaders, or how it could be twisted into permanent dependency socioeconomically. Even now that, at least superficially, initiating aggression based on skin color is not only not acceptable, it’s technically illegal; and now that there are very few actual overt racists left in America; the momentum of the past carries over into the present in the form of the War on (Black) Poverty and the War on (Black) Vice (Drugs, Gangs, Prostitution, Loose Cigarettes) with community policing under the “Broken Window Doctrine.” It’s enough to make me want to bang my head against something solid out of frustration!
The jist of what you are saying is correct, with the exception that gangs are not peaceable assembly and are consequences of The War On Vice.
Also, the Omnibus Crime Act of 1994 supported by Biden, The Clinton's, et. al politicians was also supported by many "Civil Rights" leaders wanting to keep crack and guns out of the ghettos. There is much blame to go around with that awful piece of legislation.
How is redlining not aggression against blacks? It is theft of the opportunity to build wealth.
The NAP is not incoherent and if you say that again I'll punch you right in the face!
Might makes right! Want to fight about it?
"We can either play by the set of rules where we leave each other alone, or we can play by the set of rules where the more violent person gets to tell the other what to do. I recommend you pick option one because I'm going to win at option two."
"'No such thing as Natural Rights?' Well, when you call me a slave, smile!" 🙂
The Virginian
https://youtu.be/QlyUeUz1awU
The trouble with a non- or zero-aggression principle is that it's banal. Everybody believes in it. They disagree on what the base state of affairs is against which to judge that an act is aggressing.
That’s why it isn’t of much use in quagmire situations, such as Israel-Palestine. A few generations into a feud, it just doesn’t matter who initiated force.
Lifeboat ethics conundrums are evasion of principles. Like all hard cases, they make bad law. But hard cases often make pretty good repeal.
The Israeli-Palestine situation is a contrived “lifeboat” scenario? It’s very much real life.
That's what the law is for and why libertarians are not anarchists. Most libertarians believe in minarchy, constitutional limitations on the authority of government and laws whose only purpose is to implement the NAP and enforce equal rights under the law.
Uh, no. Not everybody believes in it. There are plenty of people willing to harm and kill themselves to harm and kill others. 9/11 anyone?
Mystics firmly believe their initiation of force is good, ethical, necessary and yes, the Christian Nazi platform written by Hitler promises self-sacrifice to the death to force it on mankind. It's been there in black and white since 1920, and was carried out in April, 1945. Mystics also take THAT particular case and imagine Hitler "wasn't really" the Christian Altruist everyone knew him to be from 1928 to 1939.
Very true. Please keep up the coherence elsewhere.
I always wondered why Christianity considers suicide a sin when the core tenet reveres what amounts to God committing suicide.
NO, you miss 2 things
1) This is just one example of Political Religion, which Michael Burleigh shows is the commonality of the atheist regimes that murdered over 100 million of their own citizens.
2) HItler was NEVER what you say
In Hitler's eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.
"Once I have settled my other problem," [Hitler] occasionally declared, "I'll have my reckoning with the church. I'll have it reeling on the ropes." But Bormann did not want this reckoning postponed ... he would take out a document from his pocket and begin reading passages from a defiant sermon or pastoral letter. Frequently Hitler would become so worked up ... and vowed to punish the offending clergyman eventually ... That he could not immediately retaliate raised him to a white heat ...
— Extract from Inside the Third Reich, the memoir of Albert Speer
YOU SAY "MYSTICISM" , WHY ????
What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now [Himmler] wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may, some day, be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave ...
— Hitler quoted in Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich
At first glance I thought this was Dem pandering ahead of 2024, but it was Sen Cruz who forced the matter:
Pentagon to filmmakers: We won’t help you if you kowtow To China
The question is, what is aggression? I came to libertarianism mostly from the writings of author F. Paul Wilson (who apparently wrote some articles for Reason back the 70s and 80s but doesn't seem to have ever been mentioned since).
His most famous stuff is about a vigilante, Repairman Jack. His other really libertarian series is the LaNague Confederation stuff, in which a libertarian overthrows a galactic empire because he's afraid his world will be gobbled up.
Is baiting criminals trying to mug you and then beating the hell out of them nonaggression? Or if a country plans on invading yours, is it aggression or nonaggression to overthrow their government?
Is wearing a short skirt an invitation to be raped?
I wouldn't advise anyone to wear one in Paris at the moment.
In other news, Marine le Pen would like to thank the immigrant community for its contributions to her next campaign.
The DeSantis campaign has to be sabotage.
The most incompetent campaign team couldn't be this bad without trying.
https://twitter.com/DeSantisWarRoom/status/1674899610379116546?t=9VaAfI3-LXmzyaB1CGqVVg&s=19
To wrap up “Pride Month,” let’s hear from the politician who did more than any other Republican to celebrate it…
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The NAP isn't about anything except objective morality, what is a moral action between two individuals.
The only way is to make them pay for their ?free? rides.
You don’t convince a bank-robber to not rob the bank without explaining consequences to that said criminal. He doesn’t give a sh*t about anyone but him/her self no matter how much he/she projects, deflects, excuses and lies. Liberty and Justice is the goals of the USA; or was anyways until criminal greedy leftards started their massive scale of self-serving propaganda.
The left will pretend they're Robin-Hoods while not realizing Robin Hood took back the robbed money; while they themselves are the one's actually robbing the people's money. Endless Projection and Deflection; the lefts & criminals #1 character trait.
Maybe because I’ve read a lot of Utilitarian stuff I have a different response to these hypotheticals:
1. Is the outcome of the hypothetical more, or less, just than our current system?
2. Is the outcome of the hypothetical more, or less, just than your favored system?
I also usually mention the fallacy of division/composition and the conversation ends.
Does withholding gender-affirming care to minors conflict with the NAP? If not, not?
If a minor chooses to have sex with an adult, does that violate the NAP?
“Withholding” is kind of the opposite of aggression, but both of your examples are minors rights in tension with adults rights. These types of issues, and the laws stemming from them are based upon ethical and societal norms. These fluctuating norms can be in place and violate the NAP, but to a degree that is more, or less, acceptable to the society in question.
One of the reasons that the NAP is a “principle” and not a rule, or further – a LAW, is for edge cases like yours.
People violate laws and ignore rules all the time under the system we currently have, does that invalidate the system?
Minors don’t have the same rights or responsibilities under the law, even according to the NAP other libertarian concepts.
There is no such thing as "gender-affirming care". Poisoning and mutilating children in a bizarre and vain attempt to reify their delusions is aggression.
It is not aggression for a child to choose to have sex with an adult. It is aggression on the part of the adult to indulge that choice, because the child and the adult are not equals.
'Aggressive' being the keyword. Aggressive =/= Defensive. In the case of minors who don't have fully developed mentalities the nation chooses to view the protection of those minors as a defensive action. (i.e. Parents act 'defensively' for their children by keeping them from getting ran-over by cars on roadways.)
I didn't post the above comment. This is another instance of my nick being spoofed. You can see this by choosing "Mute User" on the above comment, and note that this comment isn't muted as a result.
This comment is obviously posted by one of my haters who wants to create the false impression that I believe there is some similarity or connection between gender affirming care and pedophilia. There is not and never has been at least in my mind.
So whoever you are, kindly fuck off.
Are they using hidden Unicode characters in the handle?
If you look at the page source, the fake isn't using any special characters to spoof your handle, but you can see the "data-author" attribute is a different account from yours.
Is Reason IT really not checking for duplicate handles on accounts?
There are so many testimonies from de-trans-ers that there is NO justification for that abomination.,
Sexual immorality has no connection with 'choice' any more than there can be a good will to take an innocent life. To see this, read the following from a former husband-and-wife abortion team
The Scalpel and the Soul: Our Radical Transformation as Husband and Wife Abortion Doctors – June 20, 2023
by MD Noreen Johnson (Author), MD Haywood Robinson (Author)
The country is more socialist and authoritarian than ever. So, six decades of failure at promoting libertarianism.
Larouche's "Fusion" Magazine asserted it was "incoherent" to be in favor of nuclear energy AND in favor of not pointing guns at potheads. The linguistic slip is common among totalitarians with no concept of or ability to define an individual right. In actual fact neither civilian reactors nor weed or acid have ever killed any member of the public. Yet both subsidized looter parties foam rabidly with insistent demands for men with guns to use deadly force against one or the other, but not both.
I think that the non-aggression principle is very good at describing libertarianism to non-libertarians. Which is a good reason for libertarians to avoid using it when trying to persuade others to their point of view. It is appealing in its simplicity and common-sense nature, but it is impossible to put into practice for complex societal problems.
And is stupid beyond telling.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them
And of course read Michael Burleigh on Political Religion
Non-agression aided the Nazis and Stalin and Mao
He provided examples, including abolishing both drug laws and government’s interference with free international trade.
This feels like Epstein chose to use non-aggression to defend the explosives testing ground. I wouldn’t call the fight against the WOD “zero aggression” or an unbridled success and there’s only about ten millennia’s worth of human history showing that international trade, which definitively is between nations, routinely breaks down into, if not directly precipitates, violence.
Maybe the real "other than 78 yr. old Jew" distinction between the two of them is that Friedman knows how to debate.
"Economists David Friedman and Gene Epstein debate how best to persuade people toward libertarianism."
Insane. Why would you want Libertarianism? Has the Libertarian experiment on the West not taught you anything?
Look at France! It's burning because Libertarians opened the borders of Europe. Look at the effects of mass migration on the USA and rise in fentanyl deaths, drug gangs! Look at Muslim grooming gangs in the UK and throughout the Western World!
Look at the rise of Communist China and the CCP!!
Damn, there may be a philosophy that might be rejuvenating to the West but Libertarianism is NOT it. You people have a hell of a lot to answer for.
In some ways, Libertarians seem to follow the demonic maxim of Aleister Crowley, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".
Disgusting. Ignorant. Stupid.
You ignored the first part of that: "An you harm no one", because you're a fascist at heart and want to regulate for the sake of ordering people around, not to prevent them harming others.
As a Philosophy tutor for some years, this is only unprincipled Utilitarianism.No mention "All men created equal, unalienable rights,government is to protect rights"
Often the most misanthropic haters use your arguments becausethe one thing they must do away with is Natural Law/ conscience/ unalienable rights.
YOur man is Biden,you even sound like him