Matt Zwolinski and John Tomasi: Who Owns Libertarianism?
The authors of The Individualists talk Rand, Friedman, Hayek, Rothbard, and the "struggle for the soul" of the libertarian movement.

My guests today are University of San Diego philosopher Matt Zwolinski and Heterodox Academy President John Tomasi, authors of The Individualists: Radicals, Reactionaries, and the Struggle for the Soul of Libertarianism. This is the definitive intellectual history of a movement that they argue began in recognizable form in the 19th century in Europe as a response to socialism and in the United States as part of the abolitionist movement. I liked the book so much that I blurbed it for Princeton University Press. We talk about virtually every aspect of libertarianism, including its strange lack of interest in the civil rights movement given its origin in abolitionism.
Today's episode was recorded in New York City before a packed house at a Reason Speakeasy, a monthly live taping of this podcast. I spoke with Zwolinski and Tomasi about major 20th-century figures such as Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, and Murray Rothbard, as well as the complicated and often-contradictory contributions each made to libertarian thinking. We also spoke about the rise of the Mises Caucus within the Libertarian Party, the seemingly complete rejection of libertarian ideas in the contemporary GOP, and whether the larger libertarian movement is ascendant or sputtering out.
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I own libertarianism, and the rest of can get the hell out of my house.
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I don't know who owns Libertarianism, but these two assholes think too much Individualism/Libertaianism are the cause of all of our problems, whether it's a shitty economy, crumbling cities, or the Culture War, and they want all of us owned by the Collective in the name of "The Common Good Over The Individual Good."
We Have Put Individualism Ahead of the Common Good for Too Long
BY RICHARD WEISSBOURD AND CHRIS MURPHY APRIL 11, 2023 7:15 AM EDT
https://time.com/6269091/individualism-ahead-of-the-common-good-for-too-long/
These bastards not only want industrial policy, but evidently Government-owned or subsidized religion, social clubs, and even newspapers! They even suggest making Doctors into inquisitors and snitches on our innermost thoughts!
Fuck Off, Worker Drones! I can do without your sickening-sweet Honeycomb! I'll stick with my wild-oats Cheerios and Ovaltine!
Nobody.
Therefore, libertarianism has no requirement that it be inclusive.
1. property is theft.
2. struggle to corral souls of individualists is Sisyphusian.
No one does !
Not only has the libertarian movement failed to provide a DEFINITION for libertarianism but the LP has too !
In addition, the questions of anarchy AND open borders have yet to be resolved !! And anarchy looks like it has been accepted as a libertarian concept !
A working DEFINITION for libertarianism is pretty simple: Minimize the size and powers of Government Almighty, so ass to maximize personal freedom!
We could start here: Propose to liberals, that they give up their "punishment boners" about punishing those who REFUSE to let liberals be compassionate with THEIR gun rights and THEIR charity choices! (More items could be added, but those stand out. Stop being compassionate with MY money, damn it!)
In turn, conservaturd assholes MIGHT contemplate STOPPING this horseshit of being compassionate with the wombs of OTHER people! AND with the sex changes and sex orientations of other people ass well, assholes!!! Oh, and their VOTES, too!
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump’s Big Lie and Hitler’s: Is this how America’s slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
Here’s a poll that says 77% of Republicans believe the 2020 election wasn’t conducted fairly.
https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-pol-q-poll-republicans-believe-fraud-20201210-pcie3uqqvrhyvnt7geohhsyepe-story.html
Others believe the Big Lie… You should believe it, too!
In summary:
230 is bad
Trump grabbed the pussy
Mother's Lament et al are bad
Tim the Enchanter is ready to play his magic flute
I flunked basic poetry
The lizard people control the space lasers
Visit my crappy website = Church of Squirrels
Actually (askshually) the LP has provided a definition. It's right there in the pledge you are required to sign before you join (as opposed to merely register to vote).
That the Mises Caucus can't figure it out is their problem.
Guesstimating wildly here, butt if ??? 75% or 85% of the commenters and tormentors and dementors here are to be believed, libertarianism is “owned” by those who are the udderly moist proficient and diligently, deviantly delinquent and socially derelict in their promiscuous hatreds of illegal sub-humans, trannies, accused “groomers”, gays, heathens, infidels, vaxxers, mask-wearers, atheists, dirty hippies, Jews, blacks, witches, or, the very WORST of them all, being one of those accused of STEALING THE ERECTIONS OF OUR DEAR LEADER, right, right-wing wrong-nuts? ANY methods are OK, so long as they are used against the CORRECT enemies, am I right?
“Accused groomers”
Buttplug: “You post just one link to kiddie porn…”
seemingly complete rejection of libertarian ideas in the contemporary GOP
This should be well cited and unbiased.
Here's your unbiased cite:
(About the apparent front-runner today, for the Team Troglodyte, Which Reports to Dear Leader TrumpfenFuhrer)
Or are you saying that democracy... one humanoid, one vote... Is NOT in keeping with libertarian ideals? If not... WHY are ye NOT saying so, clearly?
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
Synopsis: fart fuck poop fuck.
I do. Now get off my lawn.
Wow.. Did not see this when I posted. I went to the same place.
the seemingly complete rejection of libertarian ideas in the contemporary GOP, and whether the larger libertarian movement is ascendant or sputtering out.
Well if I do your own math for you and fill in *checks my previous comments* what you’re choosing to ignore vs. what you pay attention to, if the Mises Caucus took over the LP, and we take your word for it that the GOP has “completely [rejected libertarian ideas]” that leaves us with the Democrats currently helmed by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, the Green Party, the Socialist Party USA and… after that I’m reluctant to go down the line, what does that tell you about “ascendant libertarianism”?
If the GOP has completely rejected libertarianism, why is anyone complaining about the few libertarian leaning members joining the party?
https://twitter.com/AntifaWatch2/status/1646202797333905409?t=LrfsMR1f5dzNXsX4-wkZ4g&s=19
"A juror revealed another juror conducted research at home during the overnight break and presented that research to the rest of the jury"
That "research" was on the burden of proof in self defense cases, which Perry's attorney states was completely wrong
Additionally an alternate, who was not allowed to participate in deliberations was huffing, snorting, gasping, and making other noises to express displeasure with comments inconsistent with a guilty verdict.
This information would confirm wording in Greg Abbott's statement about the jury nullifying self-defense and state law.
Given this, and other allegedly criminal abuses from Jose Garza the pardon board must act as soon as possible
Jose Garza did put out a statement saying he wanted to present to the pardon board.
If this is allowed, then David Fugitt the 20 year and 'godfather' of the homicide unit that accused Garza of criminal witness tampering and testified for the defense must also present.
The whole motion for re-trial is worth a read, the other grounds for it was the claim of improperly excluded evidence.
Probably the biggest piece was the 900 page police report that concluded with "JUSTIFIED HOMICIDE". This police report was from Detective Fugitt.
Other evidence being 3 times Foster had used his girlfriend's wheelchair to block cars while a mob surrounded and swarmed people's cars.
Also the quoted video of him claiming he brought his AK for "p*ssies' who "wanna say sh*t to us"
[Links]
Also the judge ordered an Allen Charge to the jury after they were deadlocked for a week.
https://www.online-paralegal-degree.org/faq/what-is-an-allen-charge/
This is after denying various exculpatory evidence to the defense. This will be overturned pretty quickly.
Garza also removed 100 pages of exculpatory evidence from the detective presentation the grand jury.
Also the quoted video of him claiming he brought his AK for “p*ssies’ who “wanna say sh*t to us”
If he did say that, I guess he f*cked around and f*und o*t.
Behold: a "member of the 'libertarian movement'", according to Reason:
https://reason.com/2020/07/27/the-libertarian-party-mourns-garrett-foster-activist-killed-at-a-black-lives-matter-protest/
Perry bragged and fantasized about killing those protesting police brutality, then ran a red light to drive into a crowd of protestors and shot one. He was the aggressor.
Ten dollar admission charge? In New York City? Including alcohol beverages?
Must be a very popular event.
Hence not for you. Too many people who supposedly need "betters," right?
Carry On, Klinger! Don't get mugged for your flourishing cape in the effete, elite Progressive Big Apple or there will be squegee men using it to earn donations.
Most people who self-identify as "libertarian" are just libertines, incels, aspies, agents provocateurs, edgy progressives, contrarian academics, and/or communists.
People who actually care about liberty don't identify with the "libertarian movement" or its institutions.
So, you can have your "libertarian movement" and gently insert it in some dark place. Enjoy!
We still have Vermin Supreme.
Do we?
Supreme has run variously as a Republican, a Democrat, and a Libertarian.
Yet you post here.
So?
Actually they are all aspies.
To quote a coworker who has an autistic son “if autism was an excuse, half of our department wouldn’t exist”
I’m in r&d
Not that it's any of your business, right, Mr. Subsidiaritarian?
At least we got fewer syllables.
the seemingly complete rejection of libertarian ideas in the contemporary GOP, and whether the larger libertarian movement is ascendant or sputtering out.
Just gonna leave this here.
The only comment I will add to the above is that is WITH safe injection sites all over the city.
Rat Park...
People who have no hope don't want recovery.
People with hope don't get or stay addicted.
Who complains about votes being stolen? Don’t know if they own libertarians or not, but they certainly think so.
“Who complains about votes being stolen?”
Anyone dumb enough to think that votes still matter.
For the last time.
Get.
Off.
My.
Lawn.
libertarianism is owned by the individuals who are willing to back that up.
Rollo Tomasi
I own libritarianism!
Federal deficit tops $1 trillion in first six months of FY '23 despite near-record tax revenues. Park Slope Welchie Boy, Goth Fonzie Woppo, Mingo-Mango-Mongo, and Dipshit Dave Weigel hardest hit:
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/terence-p-jeffrey/deficit-tops-1-trillion-first-six-months-fy2023
Yes, some of this is because interest on the debt is now rising rapidly, but that's mostly your boy Sleepy Joe Biden's fault, you Soros dick-riding fugazi libertarian scumbags!
Begs the real question, who would want own such a thing in the first place?
After listening to almost all of the podcast, my conclusions boil down to two: first, although the history of libertarian theory is interesting to me as a libertarian, it would not be even a little interesting to anyone else; and secondly, people who are already liberty-curious will find something to bring them in all the way, and almost everyone else either could not care less about government or markets, or thinks of government in terms of how to get it to do something they want done for themselves or against people they don't like.
the seemingly complete rejection of libertarian ideas in the contemporary GOP, and whether the larger libertarian movement is ascendant or sputtering out
To the extent libertarianism is "sputtering out", it's largely the consequence of regime libertarianism. Regime libertarianism has treated nearly any deviation from libertarian orthodoxy by conservatives as an unpardonable offense while, frankly, making excuses and running cover for outright rejection of libertarian principle on the left. Sorry to have to break it to you, but conservatives have had a more pro-liberty position than Reason and the regime libertarians have exhibited on the COVID regime, "disinformation" and the imprisonment of 1/6 protesters, and censorship by the surveillance state-Big Tech complex, just to name a few issues. Meanwhile, Reason and the regime libertarians are busy singing the praises of Jared Polis because, gosh, he plays video games! As much as y'all want to pretend otherwise, cosmopolitanism and approval by the managerial-technocratic establishment does not equal liberty. In that context, who in their right mind can possibly be surprised that conservatives have turned their back on "libertarian principle". The only principle regime libertarians have offered up to them is that conservatives should forego any use of power or resistance to progressive orthodoxy while progressives impose their vision on society at large, to the applause and support of regime libertarians. A conservative watching that will quite understandably conclude that libertarianism, at least as its being presented to him, is a grift and a Trojan Horse for the progressives.
From 1988 to 2007 I had great hope for the LP. I finally learned that the main problem with the Libertarian Party is libertarians.
Yep, they will "struggle for soul of libertarianism" with all their snarkiness and venom but they have refused for 50 years to spend any energy at all on becoming politically effective.
After 2007 I left the after-school social club that is the LP and have no hope that "effectiveness" and "constructive" political outcomes will ever become more important that the "struggle for the soul" whatever that nonsense is.
re: libertarians' "strange lack of interest in the civil rights movement"
It is not "libertarian" to force A to serve B in A's establishment if A would rather not.
Ouch! Reading through most of these comments is like listening to an argument between the hemispheres of a schizophrenic’s bicameral mind. It’s no wonder the LP has lost it’s way. When the room is full of loonies, the “slightly more organized loonies” seize the opportunity to jump in and grab the reins.
Thinking libertarians can’t even figure out how to have intelligible discourse anymore. No wonder usurpers usurp. The inmates are running the asylum and all the rest seem only able to hoot and holler.
Who here has even read “The Individualists?”
But the comment section has its moments.
Most of the comment section is wannabe fascist MAGAts.