Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Abortion Prohibition, Mail-Order Pills, and Post-Roe Politics

The Reason senior editor and co-founder of the libertarian feminist group Feminists for Liberty examines a murky post-Roe future.

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Elizabeth Nolan Brown: Abortion Prohibition, Mail-Order Pills, and Post-Roe Politics

Last week, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, and with it the nationwide guarantee of a constitutional right to abortion. It was a major moment in constitutional history. But for millions of American women, the decision will also have significant personal ramifications.

In this inaugural episode, host Peter Suderman speaks with Reason Senior Editor Elizabeth Nolan Brown about the future of abortion after Roe—the legal mess, the impact on women, and what sort of responses we're likely to see.

Show links:

"Here's What Abortion Laws in a Post-Roe World Might Look Like," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"Can the FDA Stop States From Banning Abortion Pills?" by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"The Moderate Majority on Abortion," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

Audio production and editing by Ian Keyser; produced by Hunt Beaty

Comments

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

the legal mess, the impact on women

The impact on what?

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[Rob Misek]

Feminists are always bragging about how they fight for things.

Well Roe has collapsed and here’s your opportunity to finally demonstrate that you do more than whine and bully to coerce politicians to make corrupt laws.

You could actually demonstrate intelligence by debating the pertinent issue, the personhood of the unborn. After all, it was ONLY Roe that claimed the unborn weren’t persons.

You don’t really want to murder persons, or do you?

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[5.56]

Lmao the nazi can only talk to bots these days. Good.

[Rob Misek]

Anonymous cowards demonstrating they can’t prove what they claim or refute what they deny.

[Rob Misek]

Artificial Intelligence is better than none at all.

You’re not a bot are you?

[5.56]

Lol nazi fag got triggered

[Rob Misek]

The dime a dozen troll has delusions of grandeur.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Sandwiches?

[Mother's Lament]

"The impact on what?"

Women are a social construct.

[Muzzled Woodchipper]

Bingo.

It’s the corner they’ve painted themselves in. A few months ago the person they want on the court, and who now has a seat, couldn’t/wouldn’t even define what a woman is, and now the very people who support her scream about how overturning Roe affects women.

[TJJ2000]

"baby" incubators of the State?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

Seeing as ENB does nothing but lie about roe v wade, and doxes people that call her out on her compleate hypocracy and progressive activism, do you really think anyone is going to believe she is a libritarian or that she cares about freedom?

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

What's important is that her serious liberal friends think of her as an edgy contrarian and even a libertarian.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

Also can you ask ENB if she isn't lying and abortion has unprecedented levels of approval, then why is she so worried about the issue being turned over to the states and voters?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

The level of government funding to PBS is so small, so insignificant, it doesn't matter, why are we talking about this?!! *takes breath* If that funding is taken away, it will be the death of PBS, it will cease to exist, this funding is critical to the survival of one of our most cherished institutions!

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[R. K. Phillips]

Because it will *never* get to voters. And you know it.

[Sevens]

Where do you imagine she said that?

[bobby oshea]

All individuals should have a right to abortion whether they be white, black, brown, adults, minors, marginalized, privileged, women, men, pregnant, nonpregnant, born, unborn, insured, uninsured, underinsured, and so on and so forth.

AmIDoingItRight ENB?

[Mr. Bumble]

Sounds about right.

By the way, did she mention that there is a miracle of modern science called birth control?

[Cronut]

Yeah, but it's not completely free, so therefore no one has access.

[bobby oshea]

That goes without saying. There must also be equitable free access. There are large swaths of the USA that are contraceptive deserts. Government must expand to fill the void in these areas. Its basic human rights.

[R. K. Phillips]

No "human right" can cost the labor of another.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

I think you are missing the seething sarcasm in this thread

[SQRLSY One]

"No "human right" can cost the labor of another."

Yet my "human right" to have hissy fits about the Sacred Rights of Human Fartilized Egg Smells (Only the HUMAN ones for some unknown, never-specified reason though), DOES costs "binders full of women" to be bound up by my binders of my self-righteous, statist womb-control policies!

I am costing such a woman for 9 month of fully unpaid labor and unpaid womb-rent!

[Mother's Lament]

After a hard day castrating children, Sqrlsy likes to go home and play with his fetal body parts collection.

[Ted]

I’m reposting this from earlier this week. I think Tulpa is the original author, with the exception of the last two lines which I added.

Sqrsly was a pedo, Sqrsly was a thief;
Sqrsly went to middle school and stole a trans kid's meat;
I went to Sqrsly's house, Sqrsly wasn't in;
I found all his Ritalin and chucked it in the bin.
Sqrsly was a liar, Sqrsly was a sham;
Sqrsly swore the Democrats were helpless little lambs;
I went to Sqrsly's house, Sqrsly was away,
I opened up his diary and found out he was gay.
Sqrsly loved Joe Biden, Sqrsly was a creep,
Sqrsly made a shitpost and stuck it on repeat;
I went to Sqrsly's house, Sqrsly was in bed;
I picked up his crack pipe and hit him on the head.

SQRLSY shrieked in pain and jumped to his feet
SQRLSY begged “before you go, please drop a deuce, so I’ll have something to eat”

[SQRLSY One]

Hi Tulpa!

“Dear Abby” is a personal friend of mine. She gets some VERY strange letters! For my amusement, she forwards some of them to me from time to time. Here is a relevant one:

Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
My life is a mess,
Even Bill Clinton won’t stain my dress,
I whinny seductively for the horses,
They tell me my picnic is short a few courses,
My real name is Mary Stack,
NO ONE wants my hairy crack!
On disability, I live all alone,
Spend desperate nights by the phone,
I found a man named Richard (Dick) Decker,
But he won’t give me his hairy pecker!
Dick Decker’s pecker is reserved for farm beasts,
I am beastly, yes! But my crack’s full of yeasts!

So Dear Abby, that’s just a poetic summary… You can read about the Love of my Life, Richard Decker, here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/11/farmers-kept-refusing-let-him-have-sex-with-their-animals-so-he-sought-revenge-authorities-say/#comments-wrapper
Farmers kept refusing to let him have sex with their animals. So he sought revenge, authorities say.
Decker the hairy pecker told me a summary of his story as below:
Decker: “Can I have sex with your horse?”
Farmer: “Lemme go ask the horse.”
Pause…
Farmer: “My horse says ‘neigh’!”
And THAT was straight from the horse’s mouth! I’m not horsin’ around, here, no mare!

So Richard Decker the hairy pecker told me that, apparently never even realizing just HOW DEEPLY it hurt me, that he was all interested in farm beasts, while totally ignoring MEEE!!

So I thought maybe I could at least liven up my lonely-heart social life, by refining my common interests that I share with Richard Decker… I, too, like to have sex with horses!

But Dear Abby, the horses ALL keep on saying “neigh” to my whinnying sexual advances!
Some tell me that my whinnying is too whiny… Abby, I don’t know how to fix it!

Dear Abby, please don’t tell me “get therapy”… I can’t afford it on my disability check!

Now, along with my crack full of yeasts… I am developing anorexia! Some are calling me a “quarter pounder with cheese”, but they are NOT interested at ALL, in eating me!!! They will NOT snack on my crack!

What will I DO, Dear Abby?!?!?

-Desperately Seeking Horses, Men, or ANYTHING, in Fort Worth,
Yours Truly,
R Mac / Mary Stack / Tulpa / Mary’s Period / “.” / Satan

[Social Justice is neither]

tobacco? Only is it not universally free but there may be some minimal amount of effort required so that makes it part of the racist misogynistic patriarchy and must be resisted.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

More than that, its NOT FAIR that a proud woman has to make sure that at least one partner in the old in-and-out uses some kind of birth control (and uses it at least halfway correctly) EVERY TIME!

[NOYB2]

You know, pregnancy sounds like is nowhere near as bad as other common consequences of unprotected sex: herpes, HIV, HPV, etc.

Or are proud women just naturally immune to all of those?

[The New Number Two]

Abstinence doesn't exist. Birth control doesn't exist. Adoption doesn't exist. Rape and incest account for 98% of pregnancies. Lesbianism and feticide on demand are the only ways to avoid backalley death by rusty coathanger or the theocratically inspired slavery of motherhood and submitting to become a misogynistic male's personal baby factory.

[former libertarian]

Birth control is not 100% effective.

[SQRLSY One]

Fanatics love to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH fallibility in SOME cases!

Tooth brushes and toothpaste are supposed to prevent cavities... MeThinks those fallible SINNERS that get TOOTH DECAY despite preventative means being available to them? They should NOT be able to see the dentist!!! Innocent tooth-decay bacteria are SLAUGHTERED here, ya know! (Capital punishment for dentists may be needed here ass well!)

[Mother's Lament]

Sqrlsy loves to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH fetuses. It's pretty much the only people he can tackle.

[SQRLSY One]

Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer will scream and holler about the rights (to life) of the Sacred Human Fartilized Egg Smells... But after they are BORN? THEN She will be Perfectly Delighted to push them towards committing suicide!!!

Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, Supreme Demonic Director of Decay, Destruction, and Death, will now SPEAK! HARKKK silently and RESPECTFULLY, all ye lowly heathens, as She Directs Death, and announces WHICH few of us MIGHT deserve to live, and WHO all deserves to DIE-DIE-DIE!!!

https://reason.com/2022/01/25/did-these-three-officers-willfully-deprive-george-floyd-of-his-constitutional-rights/?comments=true#comment-9323626
“You should really join ᛋᛋqrlsy, ᛋᛋhrike. You two goosestepping fascists offing yourselves would definitely be a mitzvah.”

-Quote MammaryBahnFuhrer the "Expert Christian Theologian"

Hypocrite much, Perfectly Evil Butch-Bitch?

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Apparently, neither is personal responsibility.

[Cronut]

You know what's 100% effective? Not fucking.

[NOYB2]

abstinence is, however

[The New Number Two]

You're talking to people who think sexual restraint is literally Hitler.

[Muzzled Woodchipper]

This.

The idea that sex should have any unwanted consequences for women is anathema to the left.

It can ruin a man’s life if the woman keeps the baby, but women should bear no consequence whatsoever.

[Lester75]

I really wish men like you could get pregnant. It can ruin a woman's life too if she is forced to give birth. On top of that the physical symptoms and permanent bodily damage. (See all those adverts about women who pee when they don't want to? That's mostly due to long term after-effects of pregnancy).

[In Canis Credimus]

Everybody has a right to personal freedom and freedom. Only MAGAs have issues with that. I suppose those and the Christian Nationalists at the core of the GQP . ENB is dead fucking on with that.

[NOYB2]

Only MAGAs have issues with that.

You must be effing kidding. MAGAs want freedom: economic freedom, religious freedom, financial freedom, privacy.

The only freedom and privacy progressives seem to care about is abortion and sex; progressives are willing to sacrifice pretty much all other freedoms and privacy concerns on the altar of "it takes a village", "we're all in this together", "fairness", and "equality of outcome".

[I, Woodchipper]

I am once again begging Reason to limit it to at most two abortion posts per day. Is that so much to ask.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Abortion articles should be limited to the first trimester.

[Dillinger]

all abortion articles are literary murder.

[NOYB2]

You have a right to unlimited abortion articles, free of charge, whenever you want them! It says so in the Constitution and the 9th Amendment!

[Libertariantranslator]

Ooooo pick up on the male Karen.

[Dillinger]

methinks thou dost yada yada yada.

[Cronut]

It's not that murky.

States that you would expect to ban or restrict abortion, will ban or restrict abortion. States that you would expect to very liberal abortion laws, will have very liberal abortion laws. People who live in the first set of states will go to the second set of states to get abortions, get abortions before the legal time limit, or they won't get abortions.

It'll take a few years for laws to get hammered out and for the ACLU to continue to beclown itself out of existence over this, but the end results are pretty predictable.

[Dillinger]

she may be map-deficient?

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

I hear many ladies have that problem.

[Overt]

Don't forget about an assassination or two of Supreme Court Justices, followed by the usual hyperventilating about evil right-wing nutjobs.

[JFree]

In the meantime, these trigger laws will all ensure that states have effectively passed and enforced ex post facto laws. Which the SC knew would occur when it transferred jurisdiction to the states. The SC knows that that is explicitly unconstitutional. Not that the SC gives a shit about the Constitution.

[Cronut]

"We won. Get over it."

- Barack Obama

[Mother's Lament]

Your initial premise is hot garbage, and your extrapolation follows.

[Mother's Lament]

Sorry Cronut, that was aimed at JFree.

[DesigNate]

Ahh, so they should have left Roe in place because the states are breaking the rules?

[The New Number Two]

The textualists on the Court give two shits about the Constitution. The "living document"arians, not so much. For the progressive sophists, it's more of legal puzzle to twist the Constitution into supporting whatever you and your activist friends desperately want to impose on the people of every state.

[Libertariantranslator]

Same thing happened when Tilden beat Hayes. State-level Grand Goblins were put in charge of enforcing the 13th and 14th Amendments. Only difference is that the Republican lynch mob got Congress to overturn the election in exchange.

[Ted]

You don’t understand the constitution.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Snippet from a Reuters article:

increasingly wobbly as trade spats fan economic nationalism, a pandemic exposes the fragility of global supply networks

The pandemic didn't "expose" the "fragility of global supply chains", the pandemic response created fragility in global supply.

If I bring in a bunch of armed thugs into your coffee shop and tell you that you WILL close down until further notice, and if you defy my order I will drag you and your family out back next to the dumpsters and execute the bloody lot of you, your coffee shop and the economics around it were not 'fragile', they were assaulted by powerful people under the color of law. When someone asks you why you went out of business, you don't say, "Well, that damned pandemic exposed the fragility of my supply chain!"

[former libertarian]

The pandemic didn't "expose" the "fragility of global supply chains", the pandemic response created fragility in global supply.

No, it absolutely did. Efficiency is at odds with robustness. Global supply chains have been optimized for efficiency at the cost of robustness and as a result have many single points of failure. Governments and companies are responding now with requirements for multiple suppliers and production facilities, among other things, to increase robustness. Of course, this will result in higher costs and is part of the reason for the global inflation going on right now. There is a good article in the current issue of The Economist about this if you are interested.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Gee, I wonder how those fragile supply chains might have fared if they weren't turned off by fiat?

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

It can't hear anything but the official narrative.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

And by the way, we've seen 'fragile' supply chains disrupted by actual natural disasters-- earthquakes, tsunamis etc., that had pretty major impacts on JIT (just in time) manufacturing. But these supply chains came back online and adjusted pretty quickly and often times, people don't remember them. the fact that we still don't have baby formula and approx. 1/3 of the store shelves in my major-city grocery store are either empty or anemic should tell you what happens when you start firing half the world's population because they were uncomfortable taking an experimental vaccine.

Or are we going to convince ourselves that the higher death rates amongst >65 set have caused the disruption?

[Overt]

The world is awash in baby formula. Just not in the united states. And that has nothing to do with "global supply chains optimized for efficiency over robustness". It has everything to do with an overly regulated industry where heavy-handed mandates have sapped diversity and forced the concentration of productive capacity.

Not arguing with you Paul, just pointing out that we can easily see the effects of "Global Supply Chains" vs government meddling in the formula shortage.

[Overt]

"Efficiency is at odds with robustness. Global supply chains have been optimized for efficiency at the cost of robustness and as a result have many single points of failure. "

This is nonsense on stilts.

Which cities had mass starvation under the collapse of supply chains. Which people died in the streets for lack of clean water, or basic necessities.

We had a couple weeks where toilet paper was in short supply. After governments went around locking half the world in its homes.

My fucking god, I am so tired of people acting as if the global supply chains were anything other than a fucking miracle of modern technology during this mass foot-shooting exercise, called "Pandemic Response".

[JFree]

The toilet paper shortage occurred BEFORE government did anything. As did the hand sanitizer and soap shortage. The mask shortage in the US occurred before the US government - even if it was caused by Asians buying all the world's masks (and probably lots of Asian government purchasing)

[DesigNate]

I can see why you’re a former libertarian.

[Libertariantranslator]

Standard commie scripting. Lenin infiltrates a discussion and belches: "I useta read Ayn Rand when I was still picking my pimples. But now that I'm all grown up and nuanced I see how silly that was, and that only a selfish prick could possibly believe there is something wrong with maximizing the initiation of force." All communist anarchists simply take it the other way and claim that not letting them invade is initiation of force. Both gangs have been infiltrating the LP since 1976.

[NOYB2]

Global supply chains have been optimized for efficiency at the cost of robustness and as a result have many single points of failure.

Yes, they have been: by the same neo-liberals and neo-cons who then proceeded to deliberately create lots of points of failure.

Of course, this will result in higher costs and is part of [the plan]

There, FTFY. The shutdowns were a boon to politically connected large corporations and a disaster for small businesses and small landlords. So was all the money printing.

(Technically, I suppose, it wasn't "the plan" but just a lot of instances of individual rent seeking and government corruption.)

[NOYB2]

The global supply chains really were fragile, foremost due to an over-reliance on China. But it was indeed the pandemic response, not the pandemic, that exposed that.

[Longtobefree]

Murky?
After a clear decision from the supreme court?
I think not.
The issue is with the duly elected (well mostly) representatives of the peoples of the several states, and their laws are on the books. Go read them.

Related question: how far into a pregnancy is a woman still capable of making a sandwich?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

As long as that sandwich is made with a dead fetus, there is no limit.

[Stuck in California]

What if the fetus isn't dead yet?

[Minadin]

Well, apparently some beta males in NYC have decided to sterilize themselves as a reaction to Roe being overturned.

https://nypost.com/2022/07/01/younger-men-seek-vasectomies-in-the-wake-of-roe-v-wade-ruling/

Which is one way to do it, I guess.

In a state that is extremely unlikely to ban abortion.

With so many other safe, effective, reliable, and relatively inexpensive methods of birth control available.

[Cronut]

This is behavior I think we should be encouraging. The fewer of them that reproduce, the better off we'll all be.

[DesigNate]

Unfortunately, like zombies, they don’t reproduce in the normal fashion.

[NOYB2]

That is what an evil, cis-hetero-normative white male like you would say, isn't it! /sarc

[SQRLSY One]

"This is behavior I think we should be encouraging. The fewer of them that reproduce, the better off we'll all be."

VERY closely associated issues here baffle the shit out of me! Many conservatives will endlessly piss and moan about how the illegal sub-human immigrants will be dirt-poor and come here and vote socialist. It is well-documented that indeed, many poor folks vote socialist (certainly compared to the rich), INCLUDING THE NATIVE-BORN!!!

Yet VERY often, these EXACT same conservatives will endlessly piss and moan about how poor American native-born folks will use abortion to "back up" failed birth control, fend off "Lying Lothario's" lies, and otherwise use abortion to "climb the demographic transition ladder", reducing family size, to slowly transition OUT of poverty? And therefor REDUCE voting for socialists!!! WTF, conservatives?!?! WHY do you object to the poor socialists voting, when they are voting by being illegal sub-humans, but NOT when they are voting by being poor natives here against the will of their parents?

Can I have ONE guess? "Climb the demographic transition ladder" has "trans" as part of "transition", so therefor it MUST be the same as EVIL "grooming"? Is THAT it?

[Muzzled Woodchipper]

Agreed.

Let these idiots limit their sphere of influence as much as possible. At least they won’t be creating little mini-me commies.

[Mother's Lament]

beta males in NYC have decided to sterilize themselves as a reaction to Roe being overturned.

Sounds like win-win to me.

That's as much excellent news as David Hogg pledging not to have children while America is like this.
https://twitter.com/davidhogg111/status/1541897631282221057

[NOYB2]

Beta women can do this too!

[Lester75]

The people who will have more children due to anti-abortion laws tend to vote liberal (poor people who don't go to the doctor to get birth control prescriptions because they don't have insurance and are in states that turned down Medicaid funding to get more poor people insurance).

Make birth control pills over the counter. They should be already.

[TJJ2000]

"Nobody here fears Gov-Gun suppression...", Pro-Life Republican..
"Gov-Gun suppression is VERY threatening...", Real LIMITED Government Republican..

[The New Number Two]

SCOTUS overturns Roe. ENB hardest hit.

[NOYB2]

Isn't she at an age where female biology has taken care of that issue for her?

[Lucky99]

Everyone needs to stop pretending that abortion is going to stop just because of a government ban. Abortion should be safe and accessible to everyone.
https://garudamiliter.com/