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Trump's Atrocious Saudi Statement Spurs Republican Resistance: Reason Roundup

Plus: U.S. support for gay speakers rose as support for racist speakers diminished.

When you've lost Lindsey Graham… Yes, even one of the most hawkish, sycophantic members of Congress has condemned President Donald Trump's statement "on standing with Saudi Arabia"—a thoroughly depressing nine paragraphs that begin with "America First! and then, on a separate line, "The world is a very dangerous place!" From there, Trump went on to that say we can't know whether Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman knew about the state-orchestrated torture and killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi—"maybe he did and maybe he didn't!" are Trump's exact words.

"It is not in our national security interests to look the other way when it comes to the brutal murder of Mr. Jamal Khashoggi," tweeted Graham in response yesterday. "I firmly believe there will be strong bipartisan support for serious sanctions against Saudi Arabia, including appropriate members of the royal family, for this barbaric act which defied all civilized norms."

But based on Trump's statement, human rights norms come second to U.S. financial interests. "The Kingdom agreed to spend and invest $450 billion in the United States," the president proclaims. Some "$110 billion will be spent on the purchase of military equipment from Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and many other great U.S. defense contractors."

Many are disputing his characterization of the scope of Saudi spending: "Saudi Arabia, in fact, has only followed through so far on $14.5 billion in arms and aircraft, the State Department acknowledged last month. Other deals are merely vague memorandums of understanding that cover the next decade, not this year," writes Robin Wright at the New Yorker.

But that's almost besides the point. What we should be angling for—and some in Congress are—is less American arms sales to Saudi Arabia, not more. These purchases are fueling Saudi airstrikes on civilians in Yemen as well as the starvation of children and all around destruction there.

All of this Trump brushes aside in his memo, because genocide is such a good deal for us!—and anyways, blame Iran. It's a sickeningly sociopathic statement from beginning to end, radically re-envisioning basic precepts of reality. And for once in recent memory, a Trump step too far for Republicans beyond the reliably decent Rep. Justin Amash.

Amash called out the president's statement yesterday and was joined by GOP colleagues Sen. Rand Paul and Sen. Bob Corker, among others. Both Amash and Paul are promising legislation to halt U.S. weapons sales to the Saudis, a measure which draws bipartisan support.

Meanwhile, Corker opined that he never thought he would "see the day a White House would moonlight as a public relations firm for the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia."

It's a fine characterization of the Trump administration's actions here, if inaccurate in pretending this is a first for White House occupants and staff, or members of Congress. The Obama, George W. Bush, and Clinton administrations have all had problematic ties to the Saudis and engaged in unethical behavior and transactions on their behalf. Maverick John McCain accepted a million dollar gift for his "human rights foundation" from the Saudis while simultaneously pushing to expand U.S. weapons sales there. And so on.

Trump explained himself to reporters later Tuesday with the ultimate in reality TV cliches: "It is what it is." This morning, he followed up with:

For a good and thorough rebuttal of the president's Saudi statement, see this thread from University of Ottawa international affairs professor Thomas Juneau.

FREE MINDS

Data from the General Social Survey shows relatively consistent value attached to free speech principles, with support for speech by most marginalized groups growing. Between the early 1970s and today, the number of people who supported the right of gay people to give a public speech in town rose from under 65 percent to nearly 90 percent in 2016. Support for atheist speakers, "militarists," and communist speakers only rose. Support for racist speakers rose slightly in the '90s but remains around the same today as it did in the '70s (a little over 60 percent).

In any event, "these questions mostly track fear or dislike of certain groups, not free speech as a principle," suggest Liz Wolfe and Daniel Bier. "The fact that 90 percent of Americans today support allowing homosexuals to speak probably reflects changing attitudes about sexuality, not rising devotion to freedom of speech."

QUICK HITS

  • Oh boy: the idea that "whether someone is male or female [is] based on the genitals they are born with" has "no foundation in science and should be abandoned," says the science journal nature.
  • The decline of Facebook:

Photo Credit: Twitter

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  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Yes, even one of the most hawkish, sycophantic members of Congress has condemned President Donald Trump's statement "on standing with Saudi Arabia"

    An American president appeasing the Saudis? Well, this is a first.

  • Jerryskids||

    Lindsey Graham is not only one of the most hawkish and sycophantic members of Congress, he's also one of the most hawkishly sycophantic - he'll fight you to get to the head of the line to kiss Trump's ass.

  • Fancylad||

    "It's a big, fat, beautiful ass, and nobody has a better ass than me, believe me, and you can kiss it very inexpensively."

  • TuIpa||

    In this thread, Tony tries to play the Dozens but just ends up admitting he has a small dick.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    "Amazon delivers things to your house. Google helps you find things online. Apple sells actual objects. Facebook … helps you get into fights? Delivers your old classmates' political opinions to your brain?" https://t.co/kpj8KJDvmP
    — Peter Suderman (@petersuderman) November 21, 2018

    Teaches you about farming and how to be in the Mafia. (Do they still have Zynga apps?)

  • Here for the outrage||

    Let's you bid on child brides, and also lets you virtue signal about open borders and how compassionate you are for cultures that would definitely magically change upon entering the USA

  • Mike Laursen||

    Facebook has been providing its main function functionality consistently for many years now: sharing pictures of your kids with your aunt in Ohio.

    But they have all kinds of staff that need something to do, so they keep piling on annoying features like "My Story" and some kind of eBay / Craigslist thing.

    Their decline could last for decades and decades.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Trump's Atrocious Saudi Statement Spurs Republican Resistance

    No it didnt. Nobody cares about this except the media and ENB.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Educated people, modern people, successful people, and decent people care, too, but that either is irrelevant and unknown to disaffected or right-wingers or perhaps is perceived to constitute "elitist" evidence that hardens the malcontents' position.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Educated people, modern people, successful people, and decent people care, too

    So you're saying you don't care?

  • Ron||

    Did you care when Obama had An American killed in another country. If the Sauds are guilty of a crime then so is Obama and I'm fine with taking both to court except the Saudi killing is non of our business

  • Mock-star||

    "Did you care when Obama had An American killed in another country..."

    And then two weeks later, had that guy's 16 year old son, also American, also killed. Justified by saying that "he should have had a better father."

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Buttplugger is back on this handle.

    Poor Lefties like him. They have daily sads.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Winning the culture war and hearing conservatives whine about losing eases any pain, in my experience.

  • Alcibiades||

    There, there just because you'll be all alone this Thanksgiving since, well, no one can stand to be near you doesn't mean you should take it out on everyone else.

    Enjoy that TV dinner and diet soda!

  • Sevo||

    You left out the suggestion that the asshole fuck off.

  • Alcibiades||

    "You left out the suggestion that the asshole fuck off."

    Please, show some compassion here.
    We're all the human underwear stain has in the world. Absent this virtual street corner he's got nowhere to bark, howl and shriek his insanities from.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    I think there are some good odds (10-1?) that RBG will fall again by Christmas.

    Thomas retires and is replaced by TRUMP early 2019 and RBG is replaced by TRUMP middle 2019.

  • Alcibiades||

    "I think there are some good odds (10-1?) that RBG will fall again by Christmas.

    Thomas retires and is replaced by TRUMP early 2019 and RBG is replaced by TRUMP middle 2019."

    There has to be lethal levels of schadenfreude in the above scenario.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    I stocked up on popcorn and barrels for it.

    I have some left over barrels since Democrats not getting to 235 House seats causes some crying but not enough to fill all my prepared barrels.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    I couldn't care less about this. I expect Democrats to enlarge the Supreme Court in a couple of years, adding enough justices to relegate the right-wingers to authorship of bitter, strident, bigoted dissents for so long as they stay on that bench.

    You goobers didn't really expect the world, or Democrats, to let you win anything of lasting value, did you? You lost the culture war because you are losers. Your betters will continue to win at the expense of your preferences.

  • Alcibiades||

    What you "expect" and actual reality are...well, others here can fill in the rest.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Democrats would lose those SCOTUS seats too. It would be 10-5 decisions for the Constitution.

    Dont you see the trend? America is leaning more conservative.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    I find it very odd that you think that Thomas would be the next to retire after Ginsberg.

    Ginsberg is 85, Beryer is 80 and Thomas is 70. What makes you think Thomas will retire before Breyer?

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    Your mistake is assuming that there is "thinking" associated with lc's posts.

    His usual schtick is simply vomiting conservative platitudes onto his keyboard.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Thats not what I said.

    Thomas EARLY 2019 followed by RBG in MIDDLE 2019.

    The Reason is so Thomas does not make the same mistake RBG did. There is always a slight chance of Democrats taking the Senate or being president again.

    Thomas has been on the SCOTUS since 1991. He has served America well.

    I doubt Breyer will retire during Trump's second term. Breyer will be replaced by Trump after croaking at work like RBG will.

  • Jerryskids||

    Which Trumps are you talking about? I doubt like hell the Senate is going to confirm one Trump to the Court, let alone two of them.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    You got X'd punk!

  • Jerry B.||

    Apparently, Trump's atrocious statement was, to paraphrase, "innocent until proven guilty."

    Yep. Can't be having that.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Oh boy: the idea that "whether someone is male or female [is] based on the genitals they are born with" has "no foundation in science and should be abandoned," says the science journal nature.

    Oh boy??? Well, I never read something so unwoke since last month's issue of nature.

  • Remember to keep it all polit||

    nature is a weekly.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    I only read every fourth issue of any publication.

  • Remember to keep it all polit||

    What do you do when there are five Thursdays in a month?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    The abomination months? All I know is if my lady's Aunt Flo is in town, it's time to make a run to the news stand.

  • Ron||

    when scientist quite believing scientist what are normally people to believe

  • Jerryskids||

    "Has no foundation in science" for extremely generous values of "science".

  • loveconstitution1789||

    U.S. support for gay speakers rose as support for racist speakers diminished

    Democrats did lose 2 Senate seats.

    The Party of slavery, the KKK, and Segregation and their Socialist buddies really cant stop Trump now.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Sorry, 3 Senate seats once Mississippi reelects their GOP Senator.

    The Senate is now 53 to 47 and no McCain and Flake.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Interesting. This DCT judge apparently thinks the way to decide constitutional challenges to the exercise of undelegated federal powers is to carefully apply doctrine instead of reasoning backwards from a predetermined pro-govt result. Silly rabbit. https://t.co/DcVHJRfDES
    — Clark Neily (@ConLawWarrior) November 21, 2018

    Too bad this is where one finally decided to start.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    "The fact that 90 percent of Americans today support allowing homosexuals to speak probably reflects changing attitudes about sexuality, not rising devotion to freedom of speech."

    Free speech is fine as long as no one is abusing it.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Trump submits answers to Mueller's Russia inquiry

    Funny how no news of Russian election tampering now that Democrats got to 233 seats on the House. The GOP have 235 in this current 115th Congress. Its 218 House seats for control.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    It would be hilarious if Trump answered every question with MAGA.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Or "YOU'RE FIRED".

    Haha.

  • Ron||

    legally can't he take the 5th.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Legally, he does not have to do shit Mueller asks. And legally, Trump could take the 5th Amendment against self-incrimination. People do it all the time in civil interrogatories.

    Mueller works for the Attorney General who works for the president.

  • BYODB||

    And, notably, no one seems to be at all concerned about the fact that the Department of Justice, which is under the President, is the one that issued the opinion that you can not indict a sitting President and Congress hasn't had any problem with that at all until apparently just now.

    Weird.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Lefties evidently are in denial about what Trump plan is. He has been checking off COMPLETED every campaign promise he made.

    One campaign promise that he has not worked on much yet is what.....? Hillary indictment.

    Nothing better than letting the DOJ become legitimized by the Lefties as fair and only concerned about the truth. Then indict Hillary. Are Lefties then going to attack the DOJ as being biased after they just said how much the DOJ is unbiased for "investigating Rooosians"?

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    The true extent of Russian hacking takes a while to uncover. Mueller is still putting the finishing touches on his investigation of what happened in 2016.

    #ItsMuellerTime
    #TrumpRussia

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Article V Constitutional Convention

    Here is comes Lefties!

    Amendments to the Constitution to block you Socialists from destroying America.

  • Jerryskids||

    You really should watch the Chris Wallace interview with Trump where Wallace asks him about the process of answering Mueller's questions. Wallace starts off his question by saying something about Trump's team and Trump indignantly interrupts him to insist there's no "team", he and he alone decided how to answer the question and his lawyers say whatever he tells them to say. Trump doesn't want advice, he doesn't need advice, nobody is qualified to give him advice. He is the world's foremost expert on absolutely everything, he knows far more about the law than some pack of jackass lawyers.

    Now Trump lies about absolutely everything, he's very thin-skinned and suffers from an inferiority complex, so maybe - hopefully - he was just bristling at Wallace's suggestion that Trump might want or need some legal advice and was less than omniscient and omnipotent, wasn't in fact The Smartest Man In The World, but if Trump did in fact decide all on his own to answer Mueller's questions without the advice of counsel he's getting his ass impeached for obstruction of justice for lying to Mueller.

    Jesus Christ, everybody knows you don't talk to the cops, especially the Feds, they're only looking for you to make a tiny little misstatement and that's all it takes to nail your ass to the wall. And Trump can't go 5 seconds without making a misstatement.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    I almost hope he did what he says he did, because watching him trip over his own dick like that would be sublime.

    But who knows what he really did? Like you say, the boy has issues...….

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Trump had two lawyers present during depositions in the past. That was before every Lefty and their trunk full of ballots decided to go after Trump as president.

    All you have to do is look at the language of the answers. If they are in legalese, then lawyers helped him. If they are answers regular people would give, then maybe he actually did it himself.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Trump is clearly very afraid of the prospect of the Senate delivering a serious rebuke to his policy by voting to end U.S. support for the Yemen war. But that is exactly what we will do when we vote on SJ Res 54 next week.
    — Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) November 20, 2018

    There's no better reason to end support for the Yemen war!

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    Put Trump in his place by finally having Congress actually do their job.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    This is, without a doubt, the most uninformed, imbecilic, toady, poorly-written, categorically untrue statement I have ever seen from a president of the United States. A complete disgrace. https://t.co/9eqoWFeroX
    — Joe Cirincione (@Cirincione) November 20, 2018

    I have never seen such hyperbole in the entire history of the internet.

  • Leo Kovalensky II||

    I thought this was Arthur Kirkland at first.

  • ||

    The President's statement was blatantly propagandistic and demonstrates a level of writing proficiency equivalent to the average first year community college student. But, Joe Cirincione has clearly never read the Letter from President Carter to Brezhnev which, through the lens of history is both painfully naive and demonstrates that Carter was completely unequipped to understand the Soviet juggernaut.

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    "Amazon delivers things to your house. Google helps you find things online. Apple sells actual objects. Facebook … helps you get into fights? Delivers your old classmates' political opinions to your brain?"

    I wonder if Suderman commented on the irony of saying this on Twitter.

  • Leo Kovalensky II||

    That's different. Journalists and politicians use Twitter, which makes it important.

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    It certainly makes their jobs easier, now that you can just embed tweets into pages easy enough.

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    But that's almost besides the point. What we should be angling for—and some in Congress are—is less American arms sales to Saudi Arabia, not more. These purchases are fueling Saudi airstrikes on civilians in Yemen as well as the starvation of children and all around destruction there.

    Precisely. And this is yet another reason I voted for Hillary Clinton: her foreign policy wisdom and experience. I knew she'd get tough with Saudi Arabia and stop them from bombing brown people in Yemen. But with Orange Hitler in the White House, the carnage continues.

    #StillWithHer
    #VoteDemocratForWorldPeace

  • Rebel Scum||

    her foreign policy wisdom and experience.

    +1

    Funny considering she wanted to enforce a "no-fly" zone in airspace in which Russian planes were already operating. I wonder how that would have turned out. And then there's the disaster that is Libya.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Trump's decisions have led to about 50 American military being killed in combat related activities. In almost two years.

    Iraq: 17 (2017) 11 (2018)
    Afghanistan: 15 (2017) 2 (2018)
    Niger: 4 (2017)
    Yemen: 1 (2017)

    Democrats send US troops to die by the hundreds or thousands.

  • mtrueman||

    You forgot about that marine who killed 12 in california and was subsequently shot to death by local cops.

  • chipper me timbers||

    A+ for this one. Nicely done.

  • MoreFreedom||

    You say Clinton would "get tough with Saudi Arabia and stop them from bombing brown people in Yemen", which appears to be wishful thinking or cognitive dissonance on your part. Emails released from Clinton's aids show she was behind huge weapons sales to the Saudis and they considered it a Christmas present when approved by Obama's administration:

    And consider all the money the Saudis gave Clinton's including charity.

    Yet Clinton met with a Houthi leader who've sought to control Yemen in 2011.

    Doesn't this indicate Clinton is playing both sides against each other?

    The of Clinton is one that would lead to more war, more oppression and more arms sales to Saudi Arabia, without getting anything in return. At least Trump has them keeping the price of oil low, and MBS is liberalizing there (women driving, movie theaters, theme parks, etc.) far more than before.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    From there, Trump went on to that say we can't know whether Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman knew about the state-orchestrated torture and killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi—"maybe he did and maybe he didn't!" are Trump's exact words.

    Are you guys fucking with me?

  • ||

    It's a sickeningly sociopathic statement from beginning to end, radically re-envisioning basic precepts of reality.

    It IS reality. Wake up, ENB. This is probably Trump's most honest statement of his entire presidency. It's refreshing to have someone be as forthrightly honest about our pragmatic policy, the same pragmatism that has existed in US policy pretty much forever.

  • Sometimes a Great Notion||

    Pragmatism is for cucks like the first Bush admin. We need to spread democracy to the Middle East. We already have succeeded in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. Lets go for Saudi Arabia next.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    "DOGGED AND RIGHTEOUS JOURNALISM!"

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    Those clowns are getting media coverage that is waaaaaaay disproportionate to their numbers or influence. It's getting tiresome.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    Oh, bullshit. The Frontline show that you referenced was filmed long before the "right-wing terrorist acts". This coverage has been disproportionate long before any of them. It's another symptom of the left throwing a fit because Clinton got her ass kicked.

    The yoga guy was a pissed-off asshole who couldn't get a date and who had put up some YouTube videos that had three subscribers. Three. The number between two and four. And the Pittsburgh guy hated Trump as much as he hated jews.

    I keep hearing that the left is the side that is interested in facts, but experience indicates otherwise.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    You and the media are having a freakout over 0.1% of the demographic. It's rounding error.

    A few days ago a black guy shot up a hospital in Chicago. There's a black guy that was recently arrested that has confessed to 90 murders of women and as police investigate the facts tend to back up his claims, so far anyway. WTF is wrong with black guys. Why are they so hostile to society/modernity.

    The answer is nothing is wrong with them. The miscreants are outliers. You're getting caught up in a narrative the media is pushing because it fits their politics. And for clicks.

  • TuIpa||

    Then why did you include the Yoga shooter you fucking clown.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    Yeah, because the victims are less dead.

    And counting the yoga guy as political violence is stretching the definition beyond recognition. He's mad at women, so he killed women. Sort of like the Chicago hospital shooter and the serial guy.

    And then of course, there's the rise of political violence on the left, like your boys and girls in the Antifa. WTF is wrong with those people? What is it that's causing young people in elite western cities to eschew society and turn to violence?

  • Ron||

    the left is trying to blame the Chicago murders on the NRA under the pretense that they refuted some doctors lies and that triggered this person to go nuts.

  • TrickyVic (old school)||

    ""The answer is nothing is wrong with them. The miscreants are outliers. You're getting caught up in a narrative the media is pushing because it fits their politics. And for clicks.""

    No comment, just worth repeating.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Buttplugger really believes that he is not a troll.

  • ||

    My favorite part is that if you jump into the middle of clip of a white nationalist vs. antifa or white nationalist/antifa vs. other conflict it's frequently exceedingly difficult to tell who's who. It's not at all hard to find a predominantly white group clad in black picking fights with individuals (seemingly unaffiliated with any group) and spitting on black, brown, and yellow people telling them they're tokens in the name of equality(?) and social justice(?).

  • loveconstitution1789||

    These people get excessive coverage because they are Lefties and Lefty propagandists are trying to make it seem like America is NOT shifting more conservative.

    Similarly, the Socialist Nazis of Germany used propagandists to pump their street thugs numbers to make it seem like all Germans supported Nazism.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    You're actually a parody, right? Please tell me that you're just joking.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    You're just what a parody account would post.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Poor Lefties know that I am real and bad news for their propaganda.

    Its why various trolls and bots follow my comments.

  • Weigel's Cock Ring||

    Here's hoping you die in a car accident on your way back to Delaware.

  • Weigel's Cock Ring||

    You're white, stupid fucking asswipe.

  • dave b.||

    You're white

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    It's a telling commentary on our current Clown World, that the media and Congressional reps are getting so ass-blasted that Trump isn't immediately severing all diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia over the murder of a non-citizen "journalist" and MB hack by the leaders of his own country.

  • Bubba Jones||

    What we need is a tight military alliance between Saudi Arabia and China. That will help.

  • Remember to keep it all polit||

    What difference would that make?

    Who gives a shit. Let China entangle its foreign alliances. We'd be far better off without any of our own.

  • ||

    What we need is a tight military alliance between Saudi Arabia and China.

    Military and/or *economic* alliance. I haven't done the math (OK, looked into the crystal ball) with regard to oil (production and) pricing if Saudi Arabia were to turn hostile. However, I strongly suspect it veers into 'not good' territory pretty quickly. I think it would be safe to say that Russians influencing our elections would be a diminishing concern.

  • BYODB||

    I have no issue with cutting off Saudi Arabia, however I do wonder if people have any idea how expensive oil could become as a result. Environmentalists hardest hit, one might think, since the only likely solution is 'drill baby, drill' here in the United States.

  • Remember to keep it all polit||

    Why would oil become more expensive just because the US doesn't buy Saudi oil? They'll just sell it to someone else, and the oil they used to buy will be available to us.

  • ||

    Why would oil become more expensive just because the US doesn't buy Saudi oil? They'll just sell it to someone else, and the oil they used to buy will be available to us.

    Will they sell it to someone else? Would China pay them to keep it in the ground? Maybe China would pay them to pump the shit out of it and flood the market to the point where domestic production falters and then stop paying them to do so and refuse to ship us steel to build rigs and pipes. Again, I don't mean to be a prognosticator of doom or really a prognosticator at all except to say that, as I pointed out, elsewhere, China and Mexico murder or disappear journalists by the dozens and the same people who insist we cut ties with SA over Khashoggi insist that we continue to do business or even ramp up with China and Mexico.

    Ron Bailey made this point with China and rare earth metals; money is fungible and while energy independence kinda, sorta isn't a myth, world energy markets kinda, sorta mean it is.

  • BYODB||

    ...so we'd just buy from some other member of OPEC? Or perhaps Russia? I'm curious. Here are all the OPEC nations:

    Algeria. Angola. Congo. Ecuador. Equatorial Guinea. Gabon. Iran. Iraq. Kuwait. Libya. Nigeria. Qatar. Saudi Arabia. United Arab Emirates. Venezuela.

  • DajjaI||

    Facebook … helps you get into fights?

    This is so misguided and wrong. Yes FB helps you get into fights. Verbal fights where no one gets hurt. The alternative is to battle in the streets, which would have happened in the past. Now that the idiots can post their diatribes freely in public, they have one fewer excuse to resort to violence. And in fact when FB suspends users, they are far more likely to physically attack people in the streets, as was recently proven in Germany. Thus the people who are hyperventilating about Russian propaganda and how we need to censor it, are actually complete hypocrites - the censorship will only result in deepening the conflicts and pushing them underground to fester and become more dangerous. We have a worldwide network where we can fight hate and fake news from across the globe from the comfort and safety of our living rooms, and be sofa superheroes, but instead we sign a petition demanding FB 'do more' to censor people, which often ends up being weaponized against the peacemakers like me. Of course, that really is the intention of these hypocrites - to start witch hunts and wars, not prevent them.

    But otherwise I love the support for free speech and the anti-Saudi sentiment (both of which by the way were enabled by social networks like Facebook). Good work people!

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    Trump should have just kept his mouth shut. No obligation to say anything, so just say nothing. Unfortunately, it looks as if that's a skill he's never going to develop.

  • Cynical Asshole||

    Trump should have just kept his mouth shut.

    Expecting Trump to keep his mouth shut is like expecting the sun to come up in the west tomorrow.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Trump SHOULD keep talking and tweeting.

    Its drives the Lefties crazy.

    #TrumpWinning2016-2018

  • ||

    It drives just about any half-sane person crazy. Also anyone who believes in liberty, despises political violence and dictatorships or who believes foreign policy sould be at least a little bit principled.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    If you fall for getting upset at trump for what the media says he says, you're not sane at all. You are literally believing propagandist liars.

    Sanity involves thinking rationally and behaving normally.

    san·i·ty
    /ˈsanədē/
    noun: sanity
    the ability to think and behave in a normal and rational manner; sound mental health.

    Anyone calling Trump a dictator is mentally unstable. Trump does the opposite of what dictators do. If you dont see that, you have difficulty with rational thought.

  • ||

    I´m not calling him a dictator, he is not a dictator. he is, however, too friendly with dictators for me or any person who values freedom to like. Of course, so were other presidents, but at the very least, they did not feel the need to brag loudly about what awesome friends these guys are.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Ypu have not figured out that Trump plays the audience.

    If its tyrannical dictators, he throws out sound bites to get them to lower their guard.

    If its Lefty media propagandists, he tweets something to drive them even crazier for two weeks.

    FDR allied and helped Stalin....fucking Stalin.
    JFK made nice with Kruschev...fucking kruschev.
    Nixon made nice with Mao....fucking Mao.
    Reagan made nice with Sadam Hussein...fucking sadam.
    Clinton made nice with croats....croats killed hundreds of thousands of serbians and muslims in WWII death camps.

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    Good, I was worried Republicans would steal that one too. It's bad enough they stole the Georgia governor's race and the Senate seat in Florida.

    #BlueTsunami

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Funny how Lefties call House races for Democrats before all the votes are counted but leave House races where Democrats have lost uncalled for the GOP.

    235 GOP House seats for current 115th Congress.

    232 Democrat House seats for 116th Congress.

    GOP takes 3 Senate seats.

    Democrats cannot even get enough House seats to match what the GOP has?
    #BluePuddle2018

  • Remember to keep it all polit||

    The Obama, George W. Bush, and Clinton administrations have all had problematic ties to the Saudis and engaged in unethical behavior and transactions on their behalf.

    Stopped one short, at least; George H. W. Bush saved their ass in 1991, seemingly only as payback for them bailing out his son, George W. Bush, who was as lousy a businessman as he was a kindergarten book reader.

    Reagan and the Saudis, I know nothing of, but George H. W. Bush was CIA head during that era, so yeah, probably, even if not as blatant and public.

  • BYODB||


    Reagan and the Saudis, I know nothing of, but George H. W. Bush was CIA head during that era, so yeah, probably, even if not as blatant and public.


    I'll take 'Iran-Contra' for $500, Alex.

  • Remember to keep it all polit||

    Iran. Saudi Arabia. Hmmm, Don't look the same.

  • BYODB||

    I suppose it's absolutely impossible that one might fuck with Iran in order to help out the Saudi. After all, they are such good friends right?

  • ||

    I hope Jamal Kashoggi's death triggers another World War. That way we'll finally have something legitimate that we can blame on Trump.

    Seriously, I'm in favor of selling fewer arms to SA. However, it should specifically be done in a way that sends a message to the people who wore 'Jes suis Charlie' buttons for a week that they can go fuck themselves with this "American Journalist, therefore American Interest" nonsense.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    That's the thing, Khashoggi wasn't even American, he was Saudi.

  • ||

    I know.

    Not an American, not on American soil, not in an American country.

    16 journalists get killed or disappeared in Mexico this past year and getting tough of immigration and/or renegotiating NAFTA is intolerable. China has foregone executions of journalists in favor of letting them succumb to cancer in their prison cells but tariffs on Chinese steel are intolerable.

    We should sell fewer arms to SA (the government shouldn't be reselling them at all) and Khashoggi's death should have nothing to do with it.

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    If anyone here still doubts the existence of male privilege and the patriarchy, let Julia Ioffe explain: I'm trying to put my finger on why it is Nancy Pelosi faces opposition and calls for fresh blood but Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer never do.

    The answer, of course, is sexism. It's because Pelosi is a woman, just like so much of the negative coverage of Hillary Clinton was because she's a woman.

    #LibertariansForPelosi
    #LibertarianFeminism

  • ||

    The answer, of course, is sexism. It's because Pelosi is a woman, just like so much of the negative coverage of Hillary Clinton was because she's a woman.

    Exactly, when it's a woman you just know that's why she's facing opposition and when it's a man you don't even have to research to find opposition and calls for fresh blood because they aren't there. It's blatant sexism.

    I mean if I type in "Pelosi fresh blood" into Google I get 850K hits. If I type in "McConnell fresh blood" into Google I get 2.9M hits. Which just goes to show you the disproportionately sexist reporting on her plight.

  • Sevo||

    "Trump's Atrocious Saudi Statement Spurs Republican Resistance: Reason Roundup"

    Yep, everyone waiting for the bus at the corner was commenting to the others on Trump's "atrocious statement"! Yep. Well, maybe one was thinking about it. Sorta.
    ENB, seek treatment.

  • Cynical Asshole||

    U.S. support for gay speakers rose as support for racist speakers diminished.

    What about racist speaker who also happen to be gay?

    Actually something like that would probably more than a few people's heads explode.

  • Sevo||

    "What about racist speaker who also happen to be gay?"

    Paging Tony!

  • Sevo||

    And I see not a mention regarding the 'party of science' going after Ivanka Trump for using a private email account as if it were the equivalent of the hag's illegal server:

    "Ivanka Trump's use of personal email a focus of Democrats in next Congress"
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/democrats-
    intend-probe-ivanka-trumps-personal-
    email-next-212004173.html

    Heap-big vote getter from dim-wits like turd, Tony and the annoying asshole.

  • Shirley Knott||

    ...without a doubt, the most uninformed, imbecilic, toady, poorly-written, categorically untrue statement I have ever seen from a president of the United States


    If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor "

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    "I did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinski"

    "People want to know if their President is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook"

    And add pretty much anything LBJ said regarding Vietnam.

  • Tony||

    Do you enjoy the time you spend being a polyp on Laura Ingraham's vulva?

  • TuIpa||

    Remember yesterday when you tried to be a grammar troll, demonstrated that you have the reading comprehension of an 8th/9th grader, and completely lost your shit when I pointed it out?

    Everyone laughed at you for it.

  • Tony||

    No.

  • Sevo||

    Lying or too drunk to remember?

  • Tony||

    Probably the latter. I'm on vacation.

  • TuIpa||

    We're still laughing at you.

  • TuIpa||

    "I'm on vacation."

    That's just fucking pathetic. You're posting here on your vacation, god damn how pitiful.

    I didn't think anything would make me stop laughing at you for starting a grammar argument and then demonstrating that you have the reading skills of a Middle Schooler, but that did it.

  • Tony||

    I can think of something more pathetic.

  • TuIpa||

    No one cares about your penis.

  • Tony||

    Your mom could have fooled me.

  • TuIpa||

    How did you know my mom was a urologist specializing in micropenises?

  • Tony||

    Because you have just the sort of personality of a person who had to deal with that fact in elementary school.

  • TuIpa||

    Well yes, it wasn't easy having a mom who helped people like you with their tiny dicks, you guys aren't usually well adjusted.

  • Tony||

    Those of us with notably large dicks are also a little off. Sometimes we feel like that's all people notice about us. "I'm more than a giant piece of meat! I care about art!" Etc.

    But I believe we're more tolerant, because we know that we can't be size queens or else we'll be constantly disappointed.

    The tiny-dicked often seem to live in a mild state of denial, but I'm no shrink.

  • TuIpa||

    "The tiny-dicked often seem to live in a mild state of denial"

    "Those of us with notably large dicks"

    Yes, I'm surprised you admit you live in denial.

  • Tony||

    Jesus, get a room.

  • TuIpa||

    Lololol you forgot to change handles after losing at the Dozens you sad fuck.

  • Tony||

    How presumptuous of me; most likely you already have a room in which to masturbate to visions of my naked body.

  • TuIpa||

    Lololol you lost and admitted you've got a tiny dick Tony!!!

    Tiny Tony lost at the Dozens!!!

  • Tony||

    Understand by "body" I don't mean "dead body," as much as I hate to disappoint.

  • TuIpa||

    No one cares about your Thanksgiving dinner plans.

    We care about you getting dragged at the Dozens by me Tiny Tony!!!

    Ahaha you lost and you hate it!!$

  • Tony||

    Declaring premature victory, just like a tiny-dicked nutcase would do.

  • TuIpa||

    Why are you admitting what you would do?

    Ahahahahah I win again Tiny Tony!!!

  • Tony||

    Are you talking about my waist measurement? How flattering. OK let's fuck.

  • TuIpa||

    I wouldn't fuck you with your tiny dick!!!

    Ahahahah I am fucking dragging you!!!

  • Tony||

    I told you, stop with the corpse fantasies. There's still time to save you. Apart from all that mess under the floorboards. Let's talk about your penis for a while.

  • TuIpa||

    Ahahahahha omfg I actually got to you!!!

    Ahahahah your dick must be soooo small to get you this worked up ahahahahaj!!!

  • Tony||

    I won't insult you by framing this as a clear case of projection, because I do not think having a small penis is a bad or unattractive thing. When you're as hung as I, you simply don't have the luxury of being a size queen.

  • TuIpa||

    Ahahahahah jesus christ you cannot stop!!!

    It's like you NEED everyone to know your dick is pathetically small and you hate it!!!

    But I like how you hate it SO MUCH that after your shitty commute from your shitty job you HAD to come make sure you protested some more!!!

    Ahahahhahah I fucking own you Tiny Tony!!!

  • Sevo||

    How long did it take you to come up with that pathetic rejoinder, shitbag?

  • Tony||

    Not all of us have the luxury of having only 4 or 5 thoughts in our head, all supplied by some rightwing bitch on cable news.

  • Sevo||

    "Not all of us have the luxury of having only 4 or 5 thoughts in our head,"
    I'm sure we'll know when you get one.

    "all supplied by some rightwing bitch on cable news."
    You seem quite attached to TV news. I don't watch it, so your reference is lost on me.

  • Tony||

    Trump's strategy of being awful in so many dimensions that it all becomes a blur seems to be working among Reason commenters, at least. I bet Bob Mueller isn't fooled.

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    Absolutely correct. There's no way a public servant with a record as distinguished as Robert Mueller's would investigate this long and fail to uncover something truly earth-shattering. He'll deliver his final report next year when the #BlueTsunami Congress is in session and they can #Impeach. This will set the stage for President Hillary Clinton.

  • Tony||

    Imagine an alternate universe in which the president (R) says something like:

    "Christopher Stevens, eh, it's sad but it is what it is."

    Rightwing cousinfuckers would never have heard of Benghazi. This is truly a pathology. And we try to cure those.

  • Sevo||

    You two are made for each other.

  • TuIpa||

    "This is truly a pathology."

    Yes it is. I'm glad you can admit that.

    "And we try to cure those."

    Well, your admission that you have a pathology is the first step I'm told.

  • Tony||

    I guess when you're here commenting you're not turning human skin into lampshades, so that's the one plus.

  • TuIpa||

    No one cares about your vacation plans.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    That's the second Thanksgiving week Ed Gein reference I've seen in the last couple of days! Nothing reminds us more of the holidays and family than ol' Ed - the ultimate mama's boy!

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    He was such a little baby, haha.

  • Rebel Scum||

    "Christopher Stevens, eh, it's sad but it is what it is."

    Us Ambassador killed by terrorists after having called for extra security for months but denied so then president Barry Soetoro could act like everything was hunkydorry in the middle-east as a result of his infinite wisdom (and immediately condemned 1A in the process of explaining the event to the public) =/= foreign journalist killed by foreign government.

    I know you're a pos, but jeez.

  • chipper me timbers||

    "Trump's strategy of being awful in so many dimensions"

    I think you mean "make awful but meaningless comments and Tweets".

    He has a singular ability to make people go nuts over his comments but his actions are pretty run of the mill to be honest .

    A tax cut here, some tariffs there, a speech a the UN (also meaningless), plans to increase the drug war on opioids because some soccer moms are noticing it now, some minor uptick on immigration enforcement.

    Honestly he's pretty boring if not for his Tweets. But man i love watching the Trump haters loser their shit over each Tweet.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    ^This

  • Tony||

    He is the head of state. If it were only his words, it still matters. You'd be setting your hair on fire if he had a (D) after his name.

  • chipper me timbers||

    This is called projection, folks.

  • Enjoy Every Sandwich||

    I would prefer that the U.S. get out of the Middle East entirely. Unfortunately that won't happen no matter who is elected president.

    I've little doubt that if Trump had severely punished Saudi Arabia over the Kashoggi murder, the Left would be shrieking "Look at this! Saudi Arabia used to be our ally! But Trump has gone and fucked that up! Now look at all the lost jobs caused by the lost arms sales!"

  • BYODB||


    Both Amash and Paul are promising legislation to halt U.S. weapons sales to the Saudis, a measure which draws bipartisan support.


    While I agree with them, I wonder if the anti-Trump brigade have really thought through what OPEC is going to do in retaliation. I'm guessing 'no'.

  • Ron||

    Again how is Kashoggis death different than what Obama did to an American citizen. If the Saudis are guilty of murder then so is Obama

  • Tony||

    You don't even know what you're talking about, do you?

  • Mock-star||

    "He should have had a better father."

  • Rebel Scum||

    Yea murder-droning American citizens without a trial is totes cool. Unless someone with an 'R' next to their name does it. I don't ever want to know what it is like to have such a total lack of principles.

  • chipper me timbers||

    Man I'd vote for any president who promised to do NOTHING on the foreign stage. No comments, no visits, no tariffs, no concerns. "Attention people of Earth, you are not under the scrutiny or power of America. Do whatever you want as long as you do it more than 50 miles off our coastline. Good night."

    Best president ever.

  • Weigel's Cock Ring||

    Get ready to bundle up tomorrow, because it could be the coldest Thanksgiving on record in much of the northeast.

    "Global warming" baby!

  • Tony||

    Because average global temperature = the temperature on 2% of the world's surface.

    I thought you people were number geeks. I thought that was your one talent.

  • Here for the outrage||

    Then let's talk about the expanding ice caps in Antarctica. Or the increase in polar bear population. Or we can stop talking about global cooling, global warming, and climate change, as if this nonsense goes beyond a leftist scheme of global wealth redistribution.

  • Tony||

    Yes it's all a leftist scheme. They are so powerful they have convinced the entirety of the global scientific community to support a lie.

    At this point, shouldn't you just submit? You think you can beat that kind of power?

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Leftist spread the lie that Nazis were not the Socialists that they were/are.

    National Socialist German Workers' Party or Nazi (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP

  • Tony||

    Yes, just like the DPRK is democratic.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    It is. North koreans vote for communist leadership.

    They are not a free democracy though.

    The USSR was a union of soviet socialist republics. That does not mean that they were free people.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Lefties hate that the truth on Nazis being socialists is getting around.

    Tony is funny when he tries to convince people that Nazis named themselves socialists and avted socialist but were not socialists.

    Nobody is fooled.

  • Jerryskids||

    You know damn well if the forecast was the warmest Thanksgiving on record for most of the northeast, that equation would be irrefutable math and not something said sarcastically.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    Fair point. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

    Unless you're on Team Goose or Team Gander, of course.

  • Tony||

    No, actually, local weather somewhere one day would still be different from average global temperature over time.

  • Rebel Scum||

    The surface, instruments, methods and other factors are ever-changing. There is no such thing as "global average temperature".

  • BYODB||

    You can average global temperatures, it's more a question of if such a measure is useful in any way. You could, say, create a global average of height but that doesn't predict the average height of anyone in any particular country.

  • chipper me timbers||

    2016: Wettest year on record for North America. Global Warming. Simultaneously 5th year of the drought in California. It's Global Warming

    2018: Uptick in hurricane season. It's Global Warming. CampFire burns Paradise California to the ground in extremely dry windy conditions. It's Global Warming of course.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Exactly. Scientific fact needs to be reproducible in its predictions.

    Global warming means nothing as a scientific fact since global warming cannot cause all the things they associate with "Global Warming".

    The scary thing is scientists not examining natural causes for events and their relationships because they assume incorrectly that we have solved that mystery. Another reason to remove most government paid Earth and climate scientists from the payroll.

  • chipper me timbers||

    Another reason to remove most government paid Earth and climate scientists from the payroll.

    FTFY

  • EZepp||

    Its a harsh world out there, and sometimes one must think strategically, if not morally. One would only wish our European allies had the same qualms about dealing with Iran. Or Cuba. Or Russia. Or China. Or.........

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    That Decline and Fall of Facebook article really hates on Facebook, but for all the wrong reasons and with all the wrong remedies.

  • chipper me timbers||

    I've always been skeptical of FBs ability to maintain long term dominance because they have no moat, in investor parlance.

    There's very little to keep you from leaving FB, almost nothing. The cost is nil.

    Although on the the other side of it, I've heard a lot of people brag about leaving FB and they only use Instagram and WhatsApp now..[shaking my head]

  • C. S. P. Schofield||

    "It is not in our national security interests to look the other way when it comes to the brutal murder of Mr. Jamal Khashoggi"

    Ok, somebody check my understanding here. Khashoggi was a player on the Saudi Intrigue scene, and in general a front man and deal-maker for terrorists. He was very probably deeply involved in a plot to attack the Saudi Royal Family. He has the same claim to being a 'Journalist' as That Despicable Austrian would have if Time had offered him a column in addition to naming him 'Man of the Year'.

    if you intrigue against a 13th Century Feudal Royal House, they are likely to have you killed. In their view, they are completely justified in having you killed. I'm far from certain that I, personally, think they AREN'T justified in having you killed.

    So, WTF is this any of our business? Why should we CARE? If we don't like the Saudis living in the 13th Century, we can conquer them and rule according to our lights, of we can STFU. And since we don't. Want. To. Rule. Mecca. we need to STFU.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Ok, somebody check my understanding here. Khashoggi was a player on the Saudi Intrigue scene, and in general a front man and deal-maker for terrorists.

    I've stood mostly on the sidelines on this story because there seems to be something more than the one-dimensional aspect we're getting in the media. Yes, he's a journalist-- in that he's written articles.

    But yes, as you say, he was a well known operative with direct links to various insurgent groups. If I were to compare it to anything, I'd compare it to that woman who used to contribute reports on Israel for NPR until they found out her husband was an official with the PLO.

    There are messy relationships here that had unsurprising ends. it has nothing to do with justifying a murder, but the results weren't shocking.

  • Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless||

    Oh boy: the idea that "whether someone is male or female [is] based on the genitals they are born with" has "no foundation in science and should be abandoned," says the science journal nature.


    So chicken farmers are practicing a pseudo-science when separating male from female live chicks?

    Huh. Will wonders never cease.

  • chipper me timbers||

    It's amazing to watch this collective delusion spread. I'm wondering how far it will go.

  • BYODB||

    Well, not as far as it could otherwise spread since Democrats probably aren't very keen on watching their various balkanized voter groups eat each other and the entire party alive. I mean, it's pretty hard to legislate around identity groups when you've come out and said that identity is entirely subjective.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "When you've lost Lindsey Graham… Yes, even one of the most hawkish, sycophantic members of Congress has condemned President Donald Trump's statement "on standing with Saudi Arabia""

    I'm both surprised and not surprised that people still can't tell the difference between a neocon and a pragmatist. The reason it's surprising is that I still expect people to have a general understanding of what they're talking about, and the reason it's not surprising is that you'd think I'd have figured out that the world is rife with loudmouth ignoramuses who speak with total confidence.

    Here's a primer.

    Neoconservatism and pragmatism are diametrically opposed on some fundamental principles.

    One of them is the pragmatic idea that we should make allies of pretty much anyone whenever it's in our interests to do so. Neocons reject that idea on principle. Sometimes neocons have been forced by reality (things like fear of oil shocks) to not advocate bombing, invading, occupying everyone in the world who isn't pure of heart and full of love for American style democracy, but they generally only refrain with great reluctance.

    That's hawkish.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Pragmatists like Donald Trump (on the other hand), are more than willing to find friends and help for American goals pretty much wherever they can find it (Jean Kirkpatrick's distinctions between authoritarians and totalitarians notwithstanding). For instance, the Reagan administration was willing to work with Pinochet to achieve American goals, and Trump is willing to work with the Saudis to pursue American interests--even if they're not the nicest people in the world.

    Just as a reminder, Lindsey Graham, Mike Lee, Ben Sasse, John McCain, and Rob Portman were all Never Trumpers during the campaign of 2016--in large part because of Trump's pragmatism, especially in regards to Trump's campaigning on his willingness to work with Putin to defeat ISIS in Syria. After all, if Trump ceded Syria to Assad, the Iranians, and Putin, then that might smash their dream of an Iraq style invasion of Syria and Iran forever.

    We're talking about the same kind of context in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is fighting Iran's proxies all over the Middle East, many of them in places that the neoconservatives would love to "liberate". Trump prefers to use proxies--even if they aren't the nicest people in the whole wide world because he's a pragmatist.

  • Ken Shultz||

    If you think Trump is a hawk within that context, then assuming you're being intellectually dishonest is giving you the benefit of the doubt. The most likely explanation is that you know so little of what you're talking about that you can't even differentiate between neocons and pragmatists in order to make a meaningful comparison. If a neocon hawk like Lindsey Graham is shitting all over Trump's relationship with a pragmatic ally, that doesn't tell us that Trump is too hawkish for the likes of Lindsay Graham. If anything, it suggests that Trump is on the side of the doves in this equation.

    No really.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Neo-cons are fine will sacrificing American lives for their cause.

    Trump would rather use foreigners to fight our causes.

  • Ken Shultz||

    When you see journalists and politicians jumping on Trump's pragmatism, it's just about them thinking they've caught Trump in an embarrassing situation--and that's all it is. They don't mean to be arguing for a hawkish foreign policy. It's just that they're so ignorant and overwhelmed with opposition to Trump, they don't really care what their arguments really mean--so long as all the arguments are against Trump.

    When you've been alive long enough, you've seen the same shit happen over and over again. Who said, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes"?

    I remember when the press went after Bush Sr. for going into Somalia only to have them drag our soldier's dead body through the streets. With that hanging in the background, then the press stood around in disbelief when Bill Clinton refused to go into Rwanda.

    If we broke off relations with the Saudi Arabians, do people imagine that this would bring peace to the Middle East or the United States? These are the same retards who imagine that if the United States broke off relations with Israel, then Israel would be forced to seek peace with the Palestinians when, in reality, if it weren't for U.S. influence with Israel, they might exterminate every single Palestinian man, woman, and child in Gaza.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Many journalists live in a consequence-free world of imagination, where facts are whatever you want them to be, and the only important thing is that your intentions are good. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to live in a world where the consequences of their stupidity are very real.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Ken, Clinton send troops into Mogadishu in October 1993. Not Bush Sr.

    I think the media are fine with hawkish military behavior because Socialist propagandists are aggressive assholes AND they want to be opposite of Trump.

    It works out for them.

    Jimmy Carter was not very hawkish and the media attacked him. Even they went along with blaming him for the Iran Embassy hostage event and failed rescue attempt.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Bush was blamed for not doing anything to save the Somalis. We had troops in there before Clinton took office.

    "Operation Provide Relief began in August 1992, when the U.S. President George H. W. Bush announced that U.S. military transports would support the multinational U.N. relief effort in Somalia."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.....ide_Relief

    The press was all about Bush doing nothing to help the Somalis. Things going so bad that we "had" to go back as supposedly all Bush's fault.

    It was in that context that we went back and things turned to shit. Regardless, point is that the press wants what it wants without any apparent rhyme or reason apart from its partisanship. Their bluster is why we went in the first place, and it's largely to blame for why we went back.

    Their bluster about how awful it was that Bush got us involved in Somalia is also a big part of the reason why Clinton didn't go into Rwanda--despite the press support for doing so. If the press had purposely set out to fuck up American foreign policy, they could hardly have done any better. They're not smart enough to be capable of such a thing, though. They're just ignorant and stupid.

  • BYODB||

    Well hey, Clinton went into Bosnia instead and that turned out really well I'm told.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Yeah, history rhymes again. The press had it that Clinton was awful for standing by idly while people were senselessly slaughtered in Rwanda, so he felt compelled to do something about Bosnia.

    As we've seen here today, journalists are often ignorant of history, irrational, and unfamiliar with the things they write about. Remember, their job isn't to inform or educate.

    It's to sell toothpaste and beer.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero

  • mtrueman||

    "For instance, the Reagan administration was willing to work with Pinochet to achieve American goals, and Trump is willing to work with the Saudis to pursue American interests--even if they're not the nicest people in the world."

    Reagan administration? Go back to your history books. Pinochet only gained power thanks to the machinations of Nixon and Kissinger, Reagan had nothing to do with it.

    The problem with the Saudi murder is that they are playing Trump for a sap. They know they couldn't pull this kind of stunt if a more forceful leader were in power.

    "even if they aren't the nicest people in the whole wide world because he's a pragmatist"

    I'd say that America's alliance with al Qaeda/ISIS is a result of an incoherent policy. What do you find pragmatic about it?

  • Ken Shultz||

    Have you ever noticed that your non-exception exceptions are unexceptional? And that seems to be pretty much all you do.

    Are you saying the Pinochet regime didn't enjoy the support of the Reagan administration, that he didn't elevate Jean Kirkpatrick because of understanding of precisely that kind of regime, that the regime didn't behave exactly as Kirkpatrick's ideas predicted (even holding elections and respecting the results when he lost), that Reagan wasn't a pragmatist, or that anything I've written here was wrong because of something I said about the Reagan administration working with Pinochet, or that Pinochet didn't, in fact, enjoy the support of the Reagan administration?

    Because if you aren't saying any of those things, then your observation that Reagan didn't install Pinochet is pointless. Why bother reading the rest of what you wrote?

    It's always the same. Your point doesn't even contradict anything I wrote. You're arguing with voices in your head. See a psychiatrist or learn how to comprehend what you read and respond accordingly, for pity's sake!

  • mtrueman||

    "Are you saying the Pinochet regime didn't enjoy the support of the Reagan administration"

    Why harp on about Reagan? I've already pointed out that Pinochet owed his position to Nixon and Reagan had nothing to do with it, only following Nixon's lead like every other US president. A policy Reagan can truly claim authorship of is his support for Pol Pot's regime in Democratic Kampuchea. It took GHW Bush and a crisis in Iraq to reverse that.

    "Your point doesn't even contradict anything I wrote."

    I don't see this pragmatism you see in US support of alQaeda/ISIS. I think it's incoherent policy that Trump inherited from predecessor(s) and he hasn't the wits or the interest to rethink it.

    "See a psychiatrist or learn how to comprehend what you read and respond accordingly, for pity's sake!"

    How about I just write what I want. Is that OK with you?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "For instance, the Reagan administration was willing to work with Pinochet to achieve American goals"

    ----Ken Shultz

    "Pinochet only gained power thanks to the machinations of Nixon and Kissinger, Reagan had nothing to do with it."

    ----mtrueman

    When you go see your psychiatrist, make sure you explain to him or her what your statement has to do with mine. Explain how your statement contradicts mine, and explain what any reasonable person is supposed to conclude from that contradiction. When you come back, tell us your diagnosis!

    And this is just one example of your modus operandi. I've seen you do it dozens of times. Why would anybody respond to your irrelevant non-exception exceptions more than twice? Have you never considered that your criticisms are rarely connected to the things you're criticizing? Don't you want to stop being the ants at the picnic?

  • mtrueman||

    "When you go see your psychiatrist, make sure you explain to him or her what your statement has to do with mine."

    When I write something, it is not necessarily a response to you, or an attempt to correct you or contradict you. Your post serves to inspire thoughts and musing that may not be related directly to what you've written. Your posts are one of the few I like to read, but they often don't deserve the treatment you think they do, being warmed over parroting of FOX talking points.

    I don't have a psychiatrist, and you needn't harp on about that. But if you want to, go ahead.

    "Have you never considered that your criticisms are rarely connected to the things you're criticizing?"

    For the third time, I'm criticizing your take on US support for al Qaeda/ISIS as 'pragmatic,' something you seem to find difficult to defend. This shows my criticisms are on target. You don't want to discuss incoherent policy, but visits to psychiatrists instead.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano jumps in with his usual idiocy.

  • mtrueman||

    "Did you then hit "reply to this by mistake"?

    It's not necessarily a reply, but thoughts and musings inspired by what I read.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Trump does not care about a non-American, killed in a foreign nation by a foreign nation.

    Who cares.

    Trump does have a lot on his plate to deal with.

  • Ken Shultz||

    We have to weigh a lot of different things against each other when we make tough decisions. Sometimes presidents choose to drop atomic bombs on cities, incinerating thousands of innocent women and children in an instant.

    There were good reasons to do that--even if you disagree with the decision Truman made.

    There are also good reasons to keep Saudi Arabia on our side--even if they sometimes do horrible and disgusting things. I would argue that the president should always consider the interests of the U.S. and its security first. If there are good reasons to think that keeping Saudi Arabia on our side is bad for the U.S. and its security, I'm ready to listen.

    I'm not seeing Trump's opponents arguing any of them. They just seem to be trying to make Trump guilty by way of association.

  • mtrueman||

    "There are also good reasons to keep Saudi Arabia on our side"

    Do you think Nixon wrung his hands over Chile remaining on our side when he green-lighted the coup that put Pinochet in power? Of course not. Chile was the client, just like Saudi Arabia. Getting rid of a monarch to plays the president for a fool should be a no-brainer. There are plenty in the kingdom who would jump at the chance to take a job as a loyal and well behaved head of a client state. What exactly is it about this king that makes him so indispensable to US interests?

  • Ken Shultz||

    Hihn is apparently fixated on what Ken Shultz thinks.

    Ken Shultz doesn't care what Hihn thinks about anything--and no one else does either.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Loveconstitution1789 also doesnt care what troll Hihn thinks.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Hohn

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's shrieking like a bitch again.

  • BYODB||


    They know they couldn't pull this kind of stunt if a more forceful leader were in power.


    Which 'more forceful' leader would the Saudi not pull this type of stunt under? I can't think of any modern President that wouldn't have let this slide. In fact, the only reason this was brought up at all is because it was a handy bludgeon to hit Trump with even though the same bludgeon has been laying around for, what, 30-50 years?

  • mtrueman||

    "Which 'more forceful' leader would the Saudi not pull this type of stunt under? I can't think of any modern President that wouldn't have let this slide."

    I don't remember any Saudi monarch murdering journalists during the reign of Barack Obama. He knew enough not to try that kind of stunt.

  • MoreFreedom||

    The good news here, is the establishment politicians of both parties, are going to look hypocritical when they choose to ignore the oppression of some country with which they want to sell arms or ally against their opposition. The US has been engaging in moral compromises for a long time, say siding with Stalin against Germany. Or how about supporting an oppressive Shia government in Iraq rather than forcing them to create a government that supports individual rights even though it conflicts with Sharia law and Islam?

    Rand is right, as usual. We don't make the kind of friends we want (and also create enemies) when we arm oppressive governments even if they are fighting another oppressive government (e.g., Iran). Nevertheless, I do see Trump getting MBS to crack down on Saudi corruption (which funds terrorism), and increase personal freedom in Saudi Arabia (though it's got a long way to go - but I have doubts it can happen overnight somewhere like there where people have limited conception of freedom). Most countries kill people that oppose the government, so Khasoggi's death is neither an increase or decrease in freedom there, which of course doesn't make it right. But their getting caught with evidence will lead to them being more careful, less likely to kill critics, and perhaps both. That is a positive overall.

  • BYODB||


    The good news here, is the establishment politicians of both parties, are going to look hypocritical when they choose to ignore the oppression of some country with which they want to sell arms or ally against their opposition.

    I'm not sure why looking like hypocrites is really that dangerous for them when they've already been proven to be massive hypocrites. They'll be justified in their hypocrisy since they're 'resisting' the tyrant that is Trump, at least in their own minds and in the minds of plenty of the electorate.

  • TrickyVic (old school)||

    I'm not sure why it's good news this time. Ignoring oppression of some countries and selling them arms is old news. The issue with the Saudis has been around for decades and supported by both parties.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Trade with China is one of the most pragmatic things we've ever done.

    People forget what it was like before China joined the WTO, back when we used to have regular fights in Congress over whether to renew China's MFN status. That got especially tough after the Tiananmen Square massacre, but there were always arguments about them using political prisoners as slave labor, not to mention other human rights.

    No doubt, to whatever extent China is a more open society today, it's in some part attributable to trade with the U.S. American consumers don't want their products made by slave labor and political prisoners. Regardless, trade with China has been of tremendous benefit to the U.S. economy. I'm sure, some of the journalist voices complaining about Trump destroying trade with China today are some of the same voices that condemned Republicans in the past for wanting to trade with China despite their human rights record.

  • IceTrey||

    That's scientifically wrong.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Maga!

  • loveconstitution1789||

    MAGA. Making America Great Again!

    Trump is awesome!

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano got his ass kicked by the other homeless person on the street.

  • IceTrey||

    How is Obama killing US citizens any different than what they did?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    More bitch-shrieking from Dumbfuck Hihnsano.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Maga

  • matthe||

    I am particularly looking forward to Trump's public speech at Christmas. I don't know how he would praise himself. I have prepared a lot of Christmas presents for him!hhahahhah
    https://www.nicepng.com/s/christmas/

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