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Real Men Can Eat Whatever They Want, Even a Vegetarian Diet

A new study finds vegan and vegetarian men are embarrassed about their meat-free diets. They shouldn't be.

Two very manly men laughing over vegetables. Credit: Zero Creatives GmbH Westend61/NewscomTwo very manly men laughing over vegetables. Credit: Zero Creatives GmbH Westend61/NewscomA new study claims men who dine out with male friends often don't order vegetarian or vegan dishes for fear of being perceived by their friends as somehow less masculine. The researchers claim such men "are embarrassed to eat vegetarian or vegan food in public" and have experienced "social isolation" as a result of their food preferences.

"[M]any men are interested in eating less meat, they just need social permission to do so[,]" study co-author Prof. Emma Roe told attendees at a conference last month where she presented the results of the study.

The term masculinity tends to center on perceived male traits like "strength and boldness." Vegetarians can eat products derived from animals (think honey or cheese) but don't eat foods derived from killing animals. Vegans take vegetarianism one step further by also avoiding all animal products, including honey and cheese.

Data show that combined rates of vegetarianism and veganism currently hover under four percent, and have remained largely unchanged for decades. Moreover, recent data suggest that improving economic conditions throughout Asia are likely to see meat consumption rise dramatically on the world's most populous continent.

Notably, the authors of the study, Roe and Paul Hurley, her colleague at the University of Southampton, believe veganism and vegetarianism to be far better alternatives than living an omnivorous life. In particular, the authors claim that "eating less meat is vital to a more sustainable future food supply," and cite land use and greenhouse gas emissions as factors in their argument.

Headline-generating studies on gender and meat consumption, such as this one, are surprisingly and annoyingly common. For example, earlier this year, a dubious study that made the rounds argued something quite different from the one that spurred this column, namely that veganism is an explicit expression of icky white masculinity. Of course, that study is countered by another recent study, which found that "hegemonic masculinity implies an imperative to eat meat[.]"

If researchers love the masculinity and meat consumption trope, the popular media might love the pressures-to-eat-meat line of inquiry even more (see, for example, here, here, and here).

Seeking to learn more about the study, I asked Prof. Roe to send me a draft copy of the report, which she did this week. The paper's working title riffs on a line Roe and Hunter noted one study participant, who they identify as Phil, a vegetarian in his late 40s, uttered during a workshop: "Has anyone felt sort of ashamed to say they're vegetarian[?]" There's plenty to unpack in that question. For example, it expresses an internalized sentiment (shame), rather than suggesting others are ashamed to be dining alongside a vegetarian or vegan. What's more, one needn't declare their vegetarian or vegan status in order to choose to eat that way.

The study's research design leaves something to be desired. Rather than studying the pressures vegans and vegetarians may face from meat eaters in actual public settings (or attempting to recreate such settings in a controlled environment), the researchers instead attempted to create a safe dining space in which mostly vegan and vegetarian men could discuss their feelings.

"The researchers figured that in this relaxed setting, the men could be more truthful about their experiences than they might be in a rigid clinical trial or a one-on-one interview," VICE reports.

I found this apparent disconnect between the study's goals and the authors' research design a bit challenging to overcome. Namely, I wondered, why did they define the problem (that vegan or vegetarian men find it difficult "to choose the vegetarian or vegan option when in public with other men") but then focus not on these public settings or the interactions within them but, rather, on "encourag[ing men] to cook and eat meatless meals together." The key elements of the problem (public setting plus omnivore/carnivore pressures) don't appear to exist at all in the research setting.

"It might be logical to now follow up this research with a survey targeting a greater number of men, since we found that the topic of feeling ashamed, embarrassed or conflict avoidance feelings or practices associated with being a man that didn't eat meat often, or ever, was something that came out strongly in our research," Prof. Roe replied.

Additionally, though the new study intends to assess and bolster the comfort level of those who choose not to eat meat, I think the authors' approach may reinforce tired arguments about the fragility of masculinity, and may advance absurd arguments that male vegans and vegetarians are even weaker than their carnivorous and omnivorous counterparts.

I don't know too many eaters who need an attaboy before they feel comfortable exercising their dietary choices openly. But let me provide one anyways: eat whatever the hell you want. If you're a vegan or vegetarian, don't let friends who are meat eaters stigmatize you for your choices. Friends don't do that. Alternately, if you're a meat eater, don't let friends who are vegan or vegetarian stigmatize you for your choices.

"Men being concerned with the perception of lacking masculinity while ordering vegetarian is such an archaic way of thinking," says Torre Washington, a (ripped) vegan professional bodybuilder, in an email to me this week. "Masculinity is not defined by what you eat and certainly having someone else kill and cook your food for you doesn't scream 'I'm Manly.'"

Amen.

Photo Credit: Zero Creatives GmbH Westend61/Newscom

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  • Horny Lizard||

    Do you know who else betrays their insecurities by falsely accusing others of weakness by equating conformity with strength?

  • Brian||

    SJWs?

  • Jerryskids||

    Bundles of sticks?

  • Horny Lizard||

    Sure

  • MSimon||

    It is easy. Just say you have kidney problems and can't eat meat much.

  • Fancylad||

    The left?
    Red Guards gonna Red Guard. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

  • Brian||

    Antifa?

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Lefties?

  • Oli||

    Trump?

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Illegal immigrants and their advocates.

  • Mallethead||

    Hitler (he was a vegetarian, you know)

  • TGoodchild||

    We're Omnivores, look at our teeth, must have animal proteins, just don't eat so much you fat fcks, juiced 5'5 bodybuilder not valid example, either eat responsibly or jump through lots of hoops and diet supplementation, etc.

  • brec||

    Must have animal proteins? I've not encountered that claim before. I haven't had any for 5+ years.*

    *Full disclosure: I ate a few pieces of traditional fish sushi on one occasion a couple of years ago.

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    That's what kept you going all these years.

  • Sevo||

    "I haven't had any for 5+ years.*"

    Of course you haven't, you've just taken "supplements":
    "Vitamin B12 is generally found in all animal foods except honey. But there is no reliable B12 in Plant Foods, including tempeh, seaweeds, and organic produce. Luckily, vitamin B12 is made by bacteria and doesn't need to be obtained from animal products."
    https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/

    Vegans eat little animals, but they eat animals or die.

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    Brazil nuts are a wicked concentrated source of B12, for anyone, if you want to easily boost your intake for whatever reason. I don't think bacteria count as "animals"; they are a completely separate kingdom, unless I missed the latest groundbreaking news from the people who "FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE".

  • Sevo||

    Deconstructed Potato|9.8.18 @ 11:21AM|#
    "Brazil nuts are a wicked concentrated source of B12, for anyone,"

    Not according the the vegan cited above.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Brazil nuts are a wicked concentrated source of B12

    Is that why Tony was hanging out in the Ironbound District of Newark?

  • Echospinner||

    Dont want to go overboard on those. They are very high in Selinium which can be toxic in high doses. The source I saw said that 5 nuts is about a weeks worth of Selinium.

    They are also radioactive but not enough to worry about. The banana equivalent dose is 1.6.

  • JFree||

    Vegans do not need to eat animals. Bacteria are not animals. They are prokaryotes (cells have no nucleus, DNA is circular). Both plants and animals are eukaryotes (cells have a nucleus, DNA is a strand). ONLY bacteria produce B12. The only reason animals contain B12 is because animals eat bacteria (or have bacteria producing B12 inside them)

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Oh, you only need B12 for proper brain function. Plenty of progressives go years without any B12 ... umm wait a minute. ;)

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    That's not the real Sevo, y'all. Someone hijacked his account. He posted a working link.

  • perlchpr||

    That's not the real Sevo, y'all. Someone hijacked his account. He posted a working link.

    It's short enough to not hit the 50 char limit for "words" in a comment.

    It's not that he's ignorant of how to post a link, he's just too lazy to do it. Which balances out, because I'm too lazy to copy and paste them. Kind of a pity, because he does often seem to have reasonable things to say or interesting points to make.

  • brec||

    "Of course you haven't [eaten animal protein for 5+ years], you've just taken "supplements":"

    I responded about animal proteins, but will accept the subject change.

    I do take B12 (and, because I don't get much sun on my skin nor eat D-fortified foods, take D3).

    B12 is made by bacteria that live in the gut, downstream from the stomach. We make some, but we don't absorb it from our large intestine, where the bacteria live. Cows, on the other hand, with their ruminant digestive system, absorb the B12 that their gut bacteria makes into their livers and muscles.

    I don't know exactly how fish get B12 and I'm too lazy to research it (read: Wikipedia doesn't say in the B12 article).

  • Fancylad||

    I haven't had any for 5+ years.
    Well that explains your posts then.

  • TLBD||

    The reason vegetarian diets make some people feel better is because anything is better than the standard american diet.

    Also, I don't care if anyone decides to not eat meat, but just know that you are a pain in the ass to have over for dinner or BBQ.

  • vek||

    Exactly this! Going a LOT heavier on fruits/veggies than we eat IS healthier, BUT the healthiest is to also have some meat and animal products in there. We are evolved to be omnivores. That we can survive without it for a long time is true, and if you go super overboard you can get ALMOST everything you need from plants/supplements... But it's a hell of a lot easier to just eat 20-30% meat and animal products with the rest being plant based.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    You should not feel like you are a lesser man because you are a vegetarian or a vegan. You should, however, feel like a lesser man if you are too much of a pussy to tell your male friends that you don't eat meat.

  • Ersatz||

    nailed it!!

  • Colossal Douchebag||

    "I'm Ron Swanson, and I approve this message."

  • vek||

    I dunno man... They are kind of pussies. Seriously. I have pretty much never met a vegetarian or vegan man who didn't immediately scream "pussy" just from looking at them. Also around 80% of vegans are women, and 60% of vegetarians are women... So yeah, it's kind of a weak sauce feminine bleeding heart thing IMO.

    Not that people shouldn't eat WAY more vegetable and WAY less meat than we do... But going full bore is simply pointless, and in fact counter productive for health, not to mention taste, reasons!

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    We are indeed omnivores. However, ecologically, we are predators. That is our role in the ecosystem and I believe you cannot really feel the full connection to nature unless you have experienced this at least once. Otherwise, you can end up being just an alien in the woods.

  • SQRLSY One||

    As a vegan and an SJW, my next noble goal will be to go out and persuade the wolves to stop eating the bunnies, and the lions to stop eating the zebras! Who is with me!??!?

    Now, where are the on-line forums frequented by the wolves and the lions, please do tell... I need to get on-line and GENTLY persuade them! Also I sure hope that they don't bite me! (Or, Government Almighty forbid, tell ME to bite THEM! ... I think that kind of on-line banter would constitute a "hate crime").

  • Scarecrow Repair & Chippering||

    I knew some friends of a friend who were training their cat tp be vegetarian by feeding it rice. I doubt that turned out like they expected.

  • perlchpr||

    Those people need to have their cat taken away. And possibly get punched in the head.

    Humans and dogs can survive a vegetarian diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. If you don't feed them meat, you are starving them to death slowly.

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    That. Cats get all their nutrients from various parts of animals (naturally they would eat the whole mouse, bird etc) and their disgestive systems are notoriously sensitive to stuff that it's not evolved to cope with. Cats are excellent but imposing a vegematarian diet on them is woefully neglectful and unrealistic.

  • perlchpr||

    It's literally death by slow torture. It's like the modern Famine character from Good Omens who invents fast food meals that will simultaneously make you obese, while not providing the actual nourishment your body needs to survive.

    It'd be like if a human tried to survive be eating just lard. You'd swell up like a balloon, and you'd eventually die of vitamin deficiencies anyway. That's basically what someone is doing to a cat that they insist on feeding a vegetarian diet to.

  • SchillMcGuffin||

    And most ostensible herbivores get a certain amount of animal protein naturally by eating bugs and anything else they happen to scarf up while grazing or browsing, like lizards or mice or baby birds. There are a number of videos on YouTube taken by people horrified to see deer, or sheep, or horses having a little carnivorous snack. In spite of all the herbivorous peer pressure they face. ;)

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    Yes, this is true. Cats are hypercarnivores, as can be seen by comparing their carnassial teeth to those of dogs.

  • Get To Da Chippah||

  • Ska||

    Clip was the first thing that came to my mind on this vegetarian cat thread.

  • perlchpr||

    "We starved a lion until it was so desperate that it would eat anything we put in front of it, so we fed it something that wouldn't actually nourish it for ideological reasons!"

  • JFree||

    As a paleo-vegan, my next noble goal is to persuade the modern world that hunting lettuce and turnips and apples is why humans were put on Earth.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    I like the Natural History Museum in Bucharest. Their wolf diorama mentions that wolf fur can be made into coats and carpets. News like that makes tourists think twice before starting a fight.

  • SIV||

    If these men are ordering and eating meat-containing meals because they fear being perceived as pussy whipped, granola-eating crunchy hippies suffering from a teenage girl-like eating disorder they aren't really vegetarian/vegans are they?

  • prolefeed||

    If you're ordering food you don't like because you're afraid of being perceived as pussy-whipped by your bros, then you're being dick-whipped instead.

    And you have poor taste in friends.

  • Red Tony||

    To be fair, dick-whipping is a lot of fun.

    I do have poor taste in friends, though.

  • vek||

    I dunno... Your friends may be looking out for your long term best interests by giving you shit for doing something stupid. I've known several people who gave up being vegetarian/vegan because their health went to shit, and the immediately felt better again after tossing in the nominal amounts of meat that round out an ACTUAL good diet.

    It's kind of like calling your buddy out for being a fag for wearing a pink shirt because it's in vogue. I never got into that shit, and relentlessly mocked my friends that did... Because that came into fashion when I was a kid. Guess who doesn't have any pictures that are embarrassing during that period of life? ME. They all realized it was dumb eventually too. If they'd only listened to me earlier...

  • Cloudbuster||

    Sorry, Baylen. That embarrassment you feel, it really is your manhood's dying whinoers.

  • Cloudbuster||

    ^whimpers.

  • Chute_Me||

    Is this a real study? Who even comes up with this stuff?

  • Fancylad||

    Is this a real study
    1. Social research presented to a geography gazette of all places
    2. There's just a press release at the link
    3. Paper wasn't released at the time
    4. No methodology mentioned

    The replication crisis is real

  • SchillMcGuffin||

    I long observed that psychological and sociological research seemed to come in two flavors... the ones where the conclusion was obvious from the start, and the ones where the conclusion is obviously bullshit. The recent replication crisis scandal seems to support my conclusion scientifically. So I guess it falls in the first category.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Also I think a lot of vegans are hypocrites!

    Think of all the disease-causing organisms usually regarded as parasites... Viruses, bacteria, protists, tape worms, guinea worms, etc. They sure as hell are NOT vegans! Especially when they are allied with fly larvae (maggots) that will eat your disease-killed body.

    If we had the power to release "gene drives" to go out and flat-out destroy ALL of these parasites (excluding the non-parasitical flies and maggot who serve as "clean up crews"), I would advocate, let's get going NOW, start doing it!

    I bet that a TON of tree-hugging ecofreak vegans would disagree! Vegans, many of them, basically say, "It's OK for them to eat us, but not OK for us to eat them!"

  • AlgerHiss||

    "Also I think a lot of vegans are hypocrites!"

    It's worse than that. Vegans, which are a subset of vegetarians, make up such a tiny population of the eaters in the US. They are usually going to be white, educated, and not poor. (You seldom find this bunch in the trailer parks and ghettos.)

    They are also extremely dangerous, If you've ever had to live through living with a loved one that bought into all their bullshit to the point of developing an eating disorder, you will hate these assholes with a passion usually reserved for child molesters. It's not at all different that living with an alcoholic or drug addict.

  • Conchfritters||

    They are usually going to be white, educated, and not poor. (You seldom find this bunch in the trailer parks and ghettos.)

    No shit. The poor in this country actually have an obesity problem. I for one am overjoyed that we have solved hunger in this country. We should have a parade and let the poor obese in this country lead the parade in their mobility scooters. Every time someone talks about "solving hunger in this country" I laugh - - if you are hungry in this country you are either: 1) not trying, or 2) starving yourself on purpose.

  • Vernon Depner||

    There's a couple other categories of hungry people in the US. The largest is probably physically or mentally handicapped or elderly people who are hungry due to neglect. The other is poor people who live in remote areas out of reach of social services and charities and far from the stores who can run out of food and not be able to get more right away.

  • Conchfritters||

    Those are some good examples. I live in the city and have volunteered at food shelves and meals on wheels, and I don't see much hunger where I live - probably because there is close access. The food shelf actually throws away expired food because no one has taken it. Throw in food stamps, and the poor in the US eat better than the poor in just about any other country.

  • Agammamon||

    The other is poor people who live in remote areas out of reach of social services and charities and far from the stores who can run out of food and not be able to get more right away.

    Those people hunt.

  • Vernon Depner||

    Some do, but hunts are not always successful.

  • Cloudbuster||

    The poor people in my remote area are as far as the city poor. The natives around Ketchikan are fat. Obesity is an issue on the remote Indian reservations.

  • Vernon Depner||

    Obviously the institutions that supply food to the poor in that area are effective. That is not the case everywhere in the US.

  • Cloudbuster||

    Actual hunger is virtually non-existent in the US.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    According to metrics from the city government, New York City had 1.37 million residents who were food insecure at some point in 2014. Rents are high in NYC. They would be lower in Orange County if we built townhouses there for people to rent. Environmental preservationists created and maintained the land use policies that prevent home construction in Orange County. Biology researchers make bread cheap and environmental activists make shelter expensive. :(

  • perlchpr||

    Given that they define "food insecurity" as "worrying about missing a meal, maybe" and not actually, y'know, "missing a meal or five", I'm not impressed.

    Also, there's an easy solution to the rent problem in NYC. Don't fucking live there.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Also, there's an easy solution to the rent problem in NYC. Don't fucking live there.

    That solution also applies to police brutality in NYC. Some people vote with their feet, and others fight to gain their rights where they live.

  • Horny Lizard||

    Jesus dude you just blew my mind.

  • AlgerHiss||

    I call complete bullshit on the notion that there are males that don't eat vegetarian because they worry about what their male buddies might think.

    I just had a meal with 7 male friends at a well known national place, and I can assure you none of us could recall what the other ordered. Guys don't pay attention to that sort of thing. Unless someone orders mountain oysters, guys won't be able to recite what anyone orders. They don't care about that sort of thing.

    It's like asking me what color shirt was Bill wearing at lunch. I assure you, I would not know.

  • Fancylad||

    Men not behaving like women? How misogynistic.

    They should be interned in correction camps forced to take a course, until they start to notice what outfit their friends are wearing and what they ate for lunch.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    That's because Bill wasn't wearing a shirt.

  • Colossal Douchebag||

    That's because Bill was behind him, for lunch.

  • Agammamon||

    I think its more the idea that people who eat vegetarian/vegan *are afraid* that others will notice (and criticize) their choice than that it actually happens.

    Its all internal. They feel ashamed, not that they are shamed.

  • Nardz||

    There's a vegan in my poker group.
    We give him a little shit for it.
    We give everyone a little shit for something or another.
    That's what dudes do.
    Man the fuck up.

  • vek||

    They should feel ashamed. They bought into a lie. Being vegan is NOT healthier for you. Eating a 70-80% vegetarian diet + meat and animal products is probably optimal from all the reading I have done. If you're doing it for the environment, that is mostly BS too. And if you're doing it for ethical reasons... Well you're a bleeding heart pussy. Other than a VERY small percentage of people who have legit health issues digesting meat, it's basically all BS reasons to go vegan.

  • DesparateReasoning||

    The only time I'm ever going to give a friend serious shit for being a vegan or a vegetarian is when they won't shut their fucking mouth about how much better they are, and how they are saving the planet. Otherwise, I couldn't care less what they eat. Half the time I order a straight vegetarian order, not because it's vegetarian, but because it looks good. No one has ever given me a hard time about it.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Only women care what other people think of them.

  • Shirley Knott||

    Right. No guy ever cared that people thought he was gay when he wasn't.
    Men exert, and react to, social pressure, and that's all caring about feelz.
    Guys just don't generally go meta and care about caring about feelz. At least until that generates social pressure from their friends/colleagues/coworkers.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    I've never had a guy worry that I thought he was gay. I did have the occasional coworker worry that I thought he was hot. The last time I was in a warehouse, a guy asked if I would "window shop" on the job. I assured him that I never checkout or date guys from work. At the end of the shift, he stood next to me as I finished reading something and took off his shirt. I guess my answer had disappointed him.

  • Rock Lobster||

    Maybe he was hot.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Meh, he wasn't my type. He had a scare on his shoulder that bragged about, because he thought knife fights are cool.

  • AlmightyJB||

    I surely don't care.

  • Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)||

    None of this is libertarian. I should be made to feel guilty to avoid some weak willed dude feeling guilty? And to answer your atta boy comment, I don't need encouragement to eat my meat because I couldn't care less what other people think about my diet, but that doesn't dilute the pressure that vegetarians and vegans try to ply me with their preference.

    They're no different than the atheist that walks around constantly berating every religious person, upset more people don't agree with them.

  • Agammamon||

    You didn't get past the first paragraph, did you?

  • Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)||

    Read the whole thing, but reading it a second time while not having just woke up does make a difference.

  • Jerryskids||

    A new study claims men who dine out with male friends often don't order vegetarian or vegan dishes for fear of being perceived by their friends as somehow less masculine.

    Let us all applaud the (proper) use of "new study claims" because new studies are apt to be bullshit and "new study shows" or, worse, "new study proves" is your cue to stop reading. That's not how science works. And the old joke about "How do you know somebody's a vegetarian? They'll tell you." is a joke for a reason, I find it hard to believe there are that many vegetarians that hang out with non-vegetarians and give a shit what the non-vegetarians think. If you're such a girly man that you worry about what other guys think of you, you're probably only hanging out with other girly men anyways.

  • No Longer Amused||

    Eating vegan? You have a vagina, either physically or mentally/emotionally.

    This is why all your friends are angry feminist lesbians.

  • 10mm||

    Love it!

  • gphx||

    Reason male staff meeting: 'Go ahead and order the quiche, honey, - it's fabulous!'

    This article is a complete fail because real men don't need 'social permission' to do things.
    That's why someone like Trump gets their panties in a twist.

  • Agammamon||

    quiche is gay, not vegetarian.

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    What's wrong with quiche?

  • Agammamon||

    Nothing. Its good.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Who are you, Bruce Feirstein?

  • lap83||

    Vitamin b12 and iron deficiencies aren't very manly

  • Rock Lobster||

    That's why it's important to take B12 supplements and own lots of guns.

  • lap83||

    but lead poisoning can lead to iron deficiency so wash your hands!

  • Rock Lobster||

    Shit guys, my mom's here.

    Everybody cheese it!

  • Restoras||

    And an amino acid supplement.

  • Horny Lizard||

    It's pretty much game over unless you EAT something. Get in my belly! Crazy world. What are we? So weird. Yes I just smoked a bowl and the idea of eating is freaking me out.

  • Horny Lizard||

    It's okay now I ate a sausage biscuit. I'm back.

  • Red Tony||

    Why did it take you over six hours to eat a fucking breakfast sandwich?

  • Hamster of Doom||

    If it took that long to eat it, guess how long it would take to explain it.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    Sausage biscuit is a euphemism for a blowjob, followed by a game of soggy biscuit. Which still does not explain the other 5 hours.

  • Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless||

    In particular, the authors claim that "eating less meat is vital to a more sustainable future food supply," and cite land use and greenhouse gas emissions as factors in their argument.


    It's been my experience that the only people who argue for something on the basis of "sustainability" or "good stewardship" are either cranks, charlatans or self-righteous and meddlesome assholes.

    I'll have my steak and my "land use" medium rare, please.

    Let me explain something: the worry about land use does not stem from economic analysis but from a moral point of view. The investigators are insinuating that people who eat meat are SELFISH, assuming that what the author said above is accurate. If I want to use my land to raise cows, or lambs, that's my business, not theirs.

  • Shirley Knott||

    Sustainability is neo-Malthusian nonsense.
    Utterly terrified of change, utterly unwilling to let others live as they please.

    The worst thing about veganism is the sermon. I don't care what you eat, kindly show me the same respect.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    When BUCS talks about sustainability, he is talking about extreme edging.

  • Shirley Knott||

    For which purposes the vegan sermon could be helpful.

  • perlchpr||

    In particular, the authors claim that "eating less meat is vital to a more sustainable future food supply," and cite land use and greenhouse gas emissions as factors in their argument.

    Frankly, I don't give much credence to the opinions of food.

    Herbivores exist to be eaten by things higher on the food chain.

  • Sevo||

    "In particular, the authors claim that "eating less meat is vital to a more sustainable future food supply," and cite land use and greenhouse gas emissions as factors in their argument."

    The exact same claim could be made regarding "organic" produce; it uses far too much land and has to be fertilized with cow or pig shit.

  • perlchpr||

    Oooooh, excellent point.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    That's more sustainable than using chemical fertilizer.

  • Agammamon||

    Herbivores don't have innate purpose - anymore than anything else does. They are eaten by other things, they *aren't there to be eaten*.

  • perlchpr||

    OK. You are of course correct. I was being a bit silly, but if what I think is blatant sarcasm still gets misinterpreted in text, I dunno why I thought subtle humor was going to work.

  • El Oso||

    Well, I never eat pigs or cattle that aren't vegetarians - so that makes me a second-hand vegetarian, yes?

  • Conchfritters||

    Yes it does.

  • LarryA||

    Um, cows, check. Pigs:

    Pigs are omnivores, which means that they consume both plants and animals. In the wild, they are foraging animals, primarily eating leaves, roots, fruits, and flowers, in addition to some insects and fish. As livestock, pigs are fed mostly corn and soybean meal with a mixture of vitamins and minerals added to the diet.


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig

  • Agammamon||

    The occasional murdered gangster . . .

  • Scarecrow Repair & Chippering||

    No, two hipsters wagging hipster beards at each other while fondling food.

  • Scarecrow Repair & Chippering||

    (Referring to the caption)

  • Scarecrow Repair & Chippering||

    Seems like the argument is based on the binary assumption of being carnivore or vegetarian. Yes, it does not really assume you either eat all meat all the time, or eat all plants all the time, but the tone of the thesis seems that way.

    How many meals on a restaurant menu actually include meat? Many pasta dishes don't; I don't know very many people, men or women, who would sneer at a good lasagna for having no meat meat (ricotta cheese is another matter). Food comes in a wide variety with all sorts of meat-plant ratios. Some days I eat a good pound of meat, other days none. Some days I'll take a veggie burrito, other days beef or pork or chicken, and I can't recall anyone ever suggesting a veggie burrito was somehow less "manly". In fact, I've sometimes bought veggie burgers just for something different, and don't recall any such comments. I've bought just fries from fast food joints.

    The whole tone of this article seems to be arguing about eat meat or be insulted, and that just seems like an entirely artificial alien concept. Maybe lc1789's conflation of anarchy and minarchy has infected the world of real food, which is varying combinations of meat and plants.

  • H. Farnham||

    "Infected the world of real food"

    Real libertarians want limited non-GMO portions from each food group, grown in America. You're a plantarchist just like the Reason writers.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Explains a lot that your diets are lacking and therefore your minds are lacking too.

  • Shirley Knott||

    About that caption — what a rude thing to say about those children.

  • Jerryskids||

    I don't understand the caption. They're obviously making a casserole of some sort - the one guy's chopping the vegetables, the other guy is carrying the meat.

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    Soiled myself

  • Shirley Knott||

    LOL

  • SQRLSY One||

    Yeah man, but don't be tellin' me about the Mighty White-MEN Hunters...

    Notice that in the background to the left, there's a Mighty White-WOMAN Hunter, who's scored herself (AND her tribe, should she be willing to share) an even BIGGER chunk of red meat!

  • sharmota4zeb||

    I suppose the wife in the background is holding the larger child because she has more upper body strength than either of her husbands.

  • Harvard||

    Why didn't Reason commission Shecky Dullmia to author this shit and score a twofer? Gillespies' turned into one lazyass fuck you axe me.

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    Lots of sweeping generalizations and reactionary anti-vegans here. I've said this before but those I know don't impose their lifestyle choices on anyone, don't think twice about ordering what they want because they choose not to hang out with knuckleheads that wheel out the same jokes and "LOOK AT MY FUCKING STEAK R U OFFENDED BRO?!" every time it comes up, don't tell people unless it's practical, and all are healthy without having a cupboard full of supplements. Where this all falls down is that there are insufferable "THOU SHALT" types out there, and anyone who makes any choices that might align with a "veganism" is lumped in with them by the collectivist groupthink of not only the "true" vegans, but the dumbass dickwhipped macho collectivists who can't stand other people making individual life choices. Again, it's highly vocal dipshits on both ends of a spectrum that loops back around to meet itself in an ourobouros of dipshittery. Meaningless "study" lifestyle piece. Having said that, at least one of the "vegan" (ish? - he eats honey) people I know says he doesn't have any vegan friends and wonders if that's because a) it doesn't define him, and b) maybe many of them are insufferable buzzkills. Anecdotally (meaningless, right?) I found that a lot of the generalizations and prejudice is actually about a vocal minority and I wanted to stick up for my "cosmo" friends who mind their own business, have their own reasons, and order whatever they like. And breathe.

  • Hamster of Doom||

    >>>it's highly vocal dipshits on both ends of a spectrum that loops back around to meet itself in an ourobouros of dipshittery.

    Excellent visual. Accurate AF.

  • Earth Skeptic||

    Tough shit. Libertarian means choosing what you want to eat AND tolerating the comments you might get from others about your choice. If you desire a world free from ridicule, whether or not you also support "diversity", you are in the snowflake category.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    On the other hand, there's freedom of association. We're not obligated to hang out with people who don't like us unless they are licensed mental health professionals.

  • Conchfritters||

    I vote for insufferable buzzkills, or at least with respect to the vegans I know (small sample size)

  • Vernon Depner||

    one needn't declare their vegetarian or vegan status in order to choose to eat that way.

    Someone needs to get that memo to the vegetarians and vegans. They declare how they eat incessantly. Which can be ironic, since most of the ones I know are also constantly whining about their health problems or are obese, or both.

  • PeteRR||

    "How can you tell if someone's a vegetarian or vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you."

  • damikesc||

    A new study claims men who dine out with male friends often don't order vegetarian or vegan dishes for fear of being perceived by their friends as somehow less masculine. The researchers claim such men "are embarrassed to eat vegetarian or vegan food in public" and have experienced "social isolation" as a result of their food preferences.

    As well they should be.

  • SQRLSY One||

    As a lactochuggaluggarian (one who grabs that gallon of milk straight outta the fridge and just chugs away, no sissy glasses op cups need apply), I have also suffered "social isolation"!!!

    If you invite a lactochuggaluggarian to your house, AND your fear cooties, from him or her, the RIGHT AND SENSITIVE thing to do is to add a 2nd gallon of milk to the fridge, and mark it, "for lactochuggaluggarians only"!!!!

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Is that a manly thing, or a boarding house without access to a kitchen thing?

  • SQRLSY One||

    A REAL manly-many drinks straight from the cow's tits, bypassing even the plastic gallon jug!

    OR he will drink from these, scroll just down a wee tad in the link...

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0310/S00003.htm

  • Fk_Censorship||

    I'm in love.

  • Rock Lobster||

    1) I generally try to avoid discussing meatless diets with anyone I don't know well and who doesn't know me, so commenting on this article is an exception from my usual approach. Not that anyone should really give a shit, but to provide a little background, here's why.

    I stopped eating meat about five years ago for personal reasons--basically, just trying to live in a way that is more congruent with my understanding of reality. That is to say, I adopted a vegetarian diet for philosophical/religious reasons. Again, these reasons are personal, and the last thing I want to do is proselytize or draw attention to myself over it. The rare times I mention any of this to anyone who is unaware of it usually occur when I offer what I hope is a polite, humble, and brief explanation of why I don't wish to try their delicious sausage dip or whatever at some social occasion. I usually finish with a mild apology, because I think it is incumbent upon me to avoid making people feel bad. Not to mention that trying to climb on some moral high horse is just hypocritical and stupid.

  • Rock Lobster||

    2) Anyway, to the typical SJW, I would be a walking, talking paragon of toxic masculinity, and I'm damned sure not ashamed of forgoing meat. If one of my friends want to razz me about it, well, that's what guys do, and I usually give better than I get anyway. It's a non-issue.

    So now, to my point. The closest I ever get to shame over how I eat is when I think that I might ever be associated, however distantly, with those irritating, effete SOB's who just can't wait to ostentatiously inform everyone in their vicinity of their moral and intellectual superiority. The idea that these latte sipping narcissists with their politically correct and shallow dietary vanity have anything in common with me gives me gas. Or maybe that's just the legumes I had for breakfast.

  • Cy||

    Legumes.... a fun word. I love how it rolls off the tongue.

  • Rock Lobster||

    And they do, in fact, give you gas, which is also fun.

    My wife disagrees, which only increases the fun.

  • Conchfritters||

    My friend was in jail for 9 months, too short to go to a real prison, and one of the few things he could buy at the commissary was sugar free hard candy. He said the gas that gave him was legendary, and got him his own cell the last 3 months of his stay.

  • perlchpr||

    As someone who really likes eating meat, I haven't any objection to people who don't. Hell, more for me.

    I hate the people who wanna try and shame me for my ribeye. Go fuck yourself before you end up on the grill.

  • Hamster of Doom||

    See, there's a shame muscle, and it can get flexed a lot, but what I like to do with it is slap on some bacon grease and smoked paprika, and grill it to just under medium-rare.

    *Anthony Hopkins f-f-f-f-f inhale*

  • perlchpr||

    Honestly, sous vide is probably the way to go. Or a smoker. Gonna need some long, low cook times.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Don't tell the epicureans you ate legumes. That sound you hear is their souls escaping from your body. There's an Epicureans Against Tofu demonstration scheduled for Times Square next Saturday.

  • Rock Lobster||

    Let them soyle themselves.

  • Rock Lobster||

    They can have my beans when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers.

  • 10mm||

    Question: Would you eat humanely caught game meat?

  • Rock Lobster||

    Eating humans is no game, man. But I'd shoot 'em if they needed shooting.

  • Cloudbuster||

    when I think that I might ever be associated, however distantly, with those irritating, effete SOB's who just can't wait to ostentatiously inform everyone in their vicinity of their moral and intellectual superiority

    I know, right? I mean, you waited until, like, your fourth post!

  • yet another dave||

    Fun fact;
    If you cook your kale in coconut oil, it makes it easier to slide it into the trash can.

  • lap83||

    my mom makes kale with garlic and bacon, it's very good

  • Hamster of Doom||

    I generally find vegetables serve best as vehicles for garlic, bacon, butter, or gravy so I thoroughly approve of your mother.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    I wouldnt feed that to a homeless person.

  • SIV||

    I've been eating kale in soup since I was a child. Family did a lot of Portagee cultural appropriation.

  • Shirley Knott||

    I lol'd

  • Hamster of Doom||

    Put veggies in the blender and hit 'puree'. My children will never know how many vegetables they've eaten.

  • perlchpr||

    Given that the reason most kids don't like vegetables is because they don't think they taste very good, I suspect the kids won't care, as long as the smoothies didn't taste like raw kale.

  • Hamster of Doom||

    The puree is for concealment. So long as it tastes good, exactly, kids will eat what's in front of them. It's the suspicious items they can see that they seem to find objectionable.

    Spaghetti, soup, casserole, dip, so many ways to do this. The same kids who will leave leftover supreme pizza unmolested in the fridge will attack pepper dip with chips like it's... dip and chips.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Someone in San Francisco invented a liquid meal replacement called Soylent a few years ago. He also said he's fixed the homelessness problem there. ;)

  • loveconstitution1789||

    You can smell the soylemt stool samples the homeless leave behind.

  • Chaz||

    I'm not really surprised the idea could be true, people definitely push the idea and many are vocal that vegetarian or vegan diet is inferior when the subject arises, therefore it's not a leap to think this is an extension of that.

    Even look at including diet in the term to mock a stereotypical emasculated male as a "soy boy". I've certainly heard lots of people mock those who eat soy/tofu and dishes with tofu can be delicious.

  • perlchpr||

    That's due to the phytoestrogens. It's not (to the best of my knowledge) a real problem, but people make out like it is, still, for verbal warfare purposes.

  • Chaz||

    Which are also in beer, but you'd never hear anyone make negative comments in the same way that you ordered one.

  • perlchpr||

    Sure. Tofu is still sort of foreign to our culture, in a way that beer definitely is not.

    Also, tofu tends to be associated with a certain pacifistic hippie culture here, which will also lead to accusations of unmanliness.

  • Agammamon||

    Tofu can be delicious. When its a major component of your diet is when you run into problems.

    And the soyboy thing isn't 'veganism turns you into a pussy', its more 'pussies turn to veganism'. That doesn't say that vegans are pussies but that if a dude is a pussy he's likely also a vegan.

  • Chaz||

    Yeah, but it's a negative association which only serves to perpetuate attitudes towards the diet among the masses. I've seen people use tofu infused insults to people who weren't even vegetarian because they fit other soy boy stereotypes.

  • vek||

    Well, it's become a thing, so yeah. If tofu had become a big hit in the black gangster community, there were rap songs about shooting people and eating tofu, etc, it would not have taken on the connotations it has now... But that's not how it happened. It became a thing with mostly wimpy AF hippie, hipster, douchey pretentious sorts of people, hence it has become an insult because of those people being considered such lame and weak human beings.

    It's the same thing with granola, which is awesome tasting stuff. I call people granola eating pussies sometimes, even though I love some granola cereals. I also eat tofu sometimes. I have zero problem with it in Asia dishes where it belongs. But it's still an okay way to burn somebody who otherwise fits the stereotype, whether they're vegetarian or not.

  • vek||

    Also, he is correct. Very large amounts of soy CAN become a health issue. Not one that will likely kill you or any such nonsense, but fucking with your hormone levels, especially stuff that tilts your system towards more feminine hormone levels... Not generally preferable for most guys.

  • Gilbert Martin||

    "[M]any men are interested in eating less meat, they just need social permission to do so[,]" study co-author Prof. Emma Roe told attendees at a conference last month where she presented the results of the study."

    I doubt she's got any actual proof to back up that assertion.

  • SIV||

    Why do vegtards hate food diversity?

  • sharmota4zeb||

    They are kingdomists in the name of fighting speciesism.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Theyre stupid?

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Oye, if you think it's embarrassing to order the veggie burger instead of the beef burger while dinning with friends, try walking in my shoes for a while. The last time I was in the county jail, a fellow inmate asked if I was going to eat my baloney sandwich. I had to say, "Sure, you can eat it. I can't have it, because the meat is not kosher."

  • Agammamon||

    White Power Bill!

  • sharmota4zeb||

    How does White Power related to my comment?

  • Earth Skeptic||

    Or maybe groups of men dining together act naturally and order whatever they want without thinking about it. In my experience, men acting like pussies, in dining choices and other behaviors, comes from wanting some pussy.

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    Kamala Harris is the best choice for libertarians in 2020.

    Save this number to your favorites: (202) 224-3121. Call your Senators in the morning and tell them to oppose Kavanaugh. Call them in the afternoon. Leave a message at night. Keep making your voice heard.

    The progressive / libertarian alliance cannot afford to lose this battle. Kavanaugh, if confirmed, would be an absolute disaster in so many ways — he'd eliminate reproductive rights, expand "Second Amendment rights," kick African American students out of colleges, and side with Drumpf as Mueller and the #BlueWave Congress attempt to throw him out of office. Please call your Senators and urge them to do the right thing.

    #Resist
    #CancelKavanaugh
    #LibertariansForHarris

  • perlchpr||

    6/10

    A.) not related to the actual article at all. Your best work really comes when you tie it in to the main thread topic.

    B.) way over the top with bitching about "expand[ing] 'Second Amendment Rights'". If the goal is to pretend like you're trying for a real progressive / libertarian alliance, you have to, if not pretend to care about 2A, at least not verbally assault it.

  • OpenBordersLiberal-tarian||

    Weekends tend to be slow around here, so I wasn't sure if there would be another Kavanaugh topic before Monday.

    As for my views on guns, I've been quite consistent that strengthening the progressive / libertarian alliance will require both sides to reconsider some of their positions. For example, Bernie Sanders used to call open borders a right-wing Koch Brothers plot to enrich billionaires. However, today many democratic socialists want to #AbolishICE. In other words, progressives have begun moving toward the Koch / Reason position on immigration, which is a welcome development.

    Likewise, we libertarians need to do our part by moving toward the progressive position on guns. See this ACLU piece, A Pro-Liberty Case for Gun Restrictions.

    #LibertariansForGunSense

  • Chaz||

    Senator Cory "Spartacus" Booker from New Jersey is apparently the country's first and only vegan senator: https://goo.gl/9Spu1h

  • Tony||

    Which will seem rather ironic when he's revealed to be a serial killer.

  • Shirley Knott||

    He's a Senator, I think the reveal has happened.

  • Nardz||

    That makes so much sense

  • perlchpr||

    That ACLU piece is crap.

    "You have to voluntarily let us ban guns, or we're going to forcibly ban guns."

    And if the Progressives want to ally with the Libertarians, the Progressives are going to have to agree to a real compromise position.

    That isn't "halfway between our current already overly fucked position, and the utter shitshow that Feinstein wants".

    That's halfway between my position on what constitutes "reasonable gun control" and theirs.

    And my position on "reasonable gun control" allows individuals private ownership of tanks, helicopters, jet aircraft, and armaments for them, but not nuclear weapons, cluster bombs, Patriot / Tomahawk type guided missiles, or biological and chemical weapons.

    So figure out what's halfway between that and Feinstein's "I guess you should be allowed to own a revolver, but ammo should be $500 a round", and we'll compromise.

    But just telling me "give up half of what we've left you so far" is only going to earn you a rousing "Fuck you!"

  • HeteroPatriarch||

    There is no progressive/libertarian alliance, just a few dumbass trolls who like to post random lies here for some reason. On a few issues where libertarians have something nominally in common with progressives, progressives still aren't reliable alllies because eventually the mask slips and the fascists are revealed, as was the case in the entire span of the Obama administration.

  • Tony||

    They are broadly aligned, as they both want to maximize individual human freedom, unlike conservatives, who want to make us all submit to Jesus.

  • Nardz||

    I lol'd

  • vek||

    Yes, because banning straws, taxing people out of owning cars, denying them the right to self defense, I COULD GO ON FOREVER, are ALL ways to maximize individual freedom.

    Both progs and so-cons DO want to regulate behavior they think is good/bad... The funny thing is at least the stuff the so-cons push is broadly stuff that actually IS good for people individually, and a well functioning society. As a libertarian I don't want that stuff in law, but shit like not getting wasted 7 nights a week, or not sleeping with 100 people are functionally better for ones life outcomes than NOT using staws...

  • sharmota4zeb||

    he'd eliminate reproductive rights

    You mean he's going to ban penis enlargement surgery or restrict it to transgender men?

  • Brian||

    Based on these predictions, I thought Roe v Wade was supposed to be overturned ~10 years ago. Oh well.

  • Nonstopdrivel||

    That photo was taken in Germany. I have lived in Germany long enough to assure you that those men cannot be described in any way as "manly."

  • I'm Not Sure||

    "those men cannot be described in any way as "manly.""

    That was my first thought upon reading the caption. Anybody who thinks those guys are manly must not get out much.

  • Tony||

    Adults with manners don't talk incessantly about what they do and don't put in their mouths.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Tony, You talk about the cocks in your mouth all the time.

  • Tony||

    But not over dinner.

  • Red Tony||

    Alternate-universe us does, but he's an asshole.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Under dinner then?

  • Conchfritters||

    They put it on instagram

  • Brian||

    How would you know? Do you know any?

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Real men dont weigh 130 lbs when they are 6 feet tall.

    Get some meat on your bones. Literally.

  • Nonstopdrivel||

    You have no idea. In Oldenburg the gyms are packed with men who stand well over six-foot-four and yet somehow barely tip the scales at 60 kg (140 lbs). It is truly disturbing. What makes it hilarious, though, is watching their girlfriends spot them as they struggle to bench press 40 kg (90 lbs). I only wish I were exaggerating.

    Awhile back someone walked up to my lifting partner and me in the gym as we were deadlifting with great gusto and said, "Man muss für Fußball nicht kreuzheben." ("You don't need to deadlift for soccer.") Our response was a frosty: "Äh, wir spielen Fußball nicht. Wir spielen Rugby." ("Uh, we don't play soccer. We play rugby.")

    That shut him up. He slinked away and hasn't bothered us since.

    Weak-ass chuckleheads, one and all, whose wives drag them around by their noses. I've never seen so many 40-year-old virgins as I've seen in Germany.

  • vek||

    The Progs have gone extra out of their way to turn the most manly cultures in the Euro-sphere into the most pussified. As such Germany and the USA were top of their list. It seems to have mostly worked for Germany, thankfully many in the USA still fight their proggie lameness.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    [M]any men are interested in eating less meat, they just need social permission to do so...

    PERMISSION DENIED

  • Nonstopdrivel||

    Fuck you in the face!

  • 10mm||

    You know this, not to kiss ass too much but man you have the best comments

  • Hamster of Doom||

    He does.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    I disagree.

  • Hamster of Doom||

    This is why we put up with your shit.

  • SIV||

    You're WRONG!

  • 10mm||

    This is fantastic. Can we actually get the vegan tards over here to argue their nonsense on reason? Any man that doesn't eat meat is simply a beta male whether he admits it to his friends or not. And any vegan that thinks they can survive not destroying other animals lives is a logical idiot. Leave vegetarianism and veganism to the anorexic woman that invented those conditions for their body image issues. Or beta male leftists.

  • THCorCBDthatistheQuestion||

    Besides creatine (which is easily found in vegan supplement form) there really isn't anything you need to eat animals for.

    Any halfway decent whole food vegan diet has plenty of protein, including all essential amino acids.

    A whole food vegan diet is going to be more nutrient dense than any comparable diet including large amounts of animals. Fat isn't a nutrient you need in any large amount, excepting Omega 3 and 6, and the two best sources are flax and hemp.

    And of course notice I mention whole food vegan, not a fake ass vegan diet where some fat person sits around eating chips and vegan cheese all day. That shirt unhealthy and nasty as all hell.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    There clearly is something you need from animals.

    Every single vegan and vegetarian looks sickly.

    Im not saying you gotta wolf down the '96'er, but people who eat a balanced meal of vegetables and meat along with exercise look good and healthy. People who eat too much meat look unhealthy and so do people who dont eat any meat.

  • vek||

    Can't recall what all it was, and don't care to look it up, but supposedly there are certain cholesterols that are found in our brain that do not come from anything other than meat/animal products.

    As far as things go, I think the main point is that you have to go off on a wacky ass, super complicated, and still dodgy ass diet + supplements to approach having a healthy vegan diet... When you could simply throw a little meat in and be solid immediately. It's fucking stupid IMO. From all the reading I have done over the years, the optimal diet is 70-80% vegetarian + meat/animal products. This should be low on grains too, because they're garbage.

    I just don't get why anybody gets all emo about the feelz side and doesn't eat meat for ethical reasons, and since there isn't a legit health reason to not eat reasonable amounts of meat... It just gets silly. Plus meat is the most delicious stuff on earth.

  • THCorCBDthatistheQuestion||

    I've been vegan for over a year now. My friends still try and give me crap when we go to bars or restaurants about not getting wings, or bacon and cheese covered fries.

    My response is simply to point out their giant bellies, and the fact they probably havent been able to see their own meat in years.

  • Nonstopdrivel||

    Fortunately for you, the liver can store a five-year supply of Vitamin B12. So you still have another four years before the macrocytic anemia and hemolysis start to set in.

  • Tony||

    Aw, your fingers managed two whole posts before you passed out.

  • Nardz||

    *clap*

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Dollars to donuts you look unhealthy.

  • Hamster of Doom||

    You do you, brah. Shine on.

  • Vernon Depner||

    they probably havent been able to see their own meat in years.

    A fat guy and a skinny guy are in the shower at the gym. The fat guy says, "you know, I should try to lose some weight. I haven't seen my dick in years." The skinny guy says, "have you tried to diet?". The fat guy says, "why? What color is it now?"

  • vek||

    And being fat has NOTHING to do with eating meat or not... It's called a healthy diet. Which can EASILY include meat. Everytime I see a vegan make this dumb argument it just makes my head explode, because there is no logic to it. Going from a typical garbage American diet to vegan will probably drop weight, improve health in the short term... But going to an 80% vegetarian diet, and NOT absolutely cutting out all the other stuff, would do the exact same, be easier to accomplish, taste better (cuz meat!), and be healthier long term.

    So if you're going soy-boy because you don't want to be fat, it's simply not needed.

  • lap83||

    a sausage factory of libertarians

    oops, wrong article! .....or is it?

  • perlchpr||

    :D

  • Hamster of Doom||

    Much of this conversation has put me in mind of an article Playa Manhattan shared. Themes of why we react as we do to food, and whatnot. It's very good reading.

    www.newyorker.com/magazine/200.....undrum/amp

  • Brian||

    I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to care about people's food problems.

  • macsnafu||

    I'm a meat and potatoes man. And pasta, and cheese, and lettuce, and tomatoes, and bell peppers, and squash, and onion, and broccoli, and cabbage, and mushroooms, and...

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    THERE'S NO MEAT IN PASTA YOU GIRL. And I have no idea what comprises squash.

  • Echospinner||

    I saw an interview with Warren Buffett who is 88 years old and going strong. He eats ice cream for breakfast, munches on potato sticks and drinks Coke all day. He said that he looked up the demographics and six year olds are the healthiest so he eats like a six year old.

    Who knows? Some of those fad diets like ketogenic, paleo, and probably this all meat thing Jordon Peterson is doing have got to be bad for you in the long run.

  • buybuydandavis||

    Shilling for vegetarianism.

    Reason is a clown show.

  • Nardz||

    Gillespie went on an insufficiently progressive rant the other day.
    They needed to earn some points back

  • Incomprehensible Bitching||

    But what about potatoes in the ass?

  • SIV||

  • ||

    This article is just apologetics for Nick Gillespie who got outed as vegan by Mangu-Ward (in the minarchy-anarchy debate).

  • SIV||

    Esteemed editrix debates dirty.

  • Flinch||

    Eat whatever food you like: the number one cause of death is living, and no diet is good enough to get around it. But one caveat: tofu is not food - I don't care what anybody says, including science. Every organ in my body says try something else.

  • SIV||

    Fry up that tofu in some leftover bacon drippings. Maybe add a little soy and/or Worcestershire sauce. It'll taste good and is a good source of protein. Really economical if you're paying a competitive price for the tofu (like from an international/asian market) and not from some high-end over-priced white grocery store.

    Some scallions, cabbage and bean sprouts and served over steamed polished rice and you have a meal(s). Season with garlic, ginger, soy/black bean/oyster sauce, sriracha , chili paste to taste before during and/or after cooking

  • VinniUSMC||

    That sounds like the absolute worst meal ever thought up...

    Cabbage, bean sprouts and tofu? That's not food. That's a Depression meal.

  • mpercy||

    I like the tofu strips that come in my hot and sour soup, pretending to be noodle. If it were pretending to be a turkey, probably not.

  • Jayburd||

    "Real Men" Why is it authored by the Reason Staff?

  • SIV||

    Some chivalrous gentleman should challenge the US DoJ to a duel. For besmirching this young lady's honor.. Like back when we were a civilized country.

    Yeah, I know Reason's response by heart: But..but..but.. we had slavery back then, and John C Calhoun never had an iPhone"!

  • SIV||

    I didn't mean to be so antiquated. For you kids out there the government is slut-shaming a woman to keep her in federal pre-trial detention( jail w/o bond). Maybe the authoritarian-statist "libertarians" could get her some help by blaming it all on Trump

  • Hamster of Doom||

    If this is still the top post tomorrow I guarantee I will be blathering on about inosinic and glutamic acids, and I don't even want to hear y'alls shit because you have been warned.

    Or at least notified.

  • perlchpr||

    OT: Update on the "Wrong Apartment Killer Cop"

    A manslaughter warrant is expected to be issued for Amber Guyger, the Dallas police officer who police say shot and killed a man after entering an apartment unit she believed was her own Thursday night.

    I gotta say, I'm pleasantly surprised. I'll be a bit more surprised if they actually follow through, but it looks like the Sacrificial Female Cop may end up going under the bus for her brothers in blue, because there seems to be a lot of outrage surrounding this one locally.

    Link

  • Shirley Knott||

    Interesting. A key data point appears to be that the officer went to the wrong floor of the complex, struggled when her key didn't work, and shot the victim when he opened the door to see what was going on.
    So. Cop did not enter the wrong apartment, 'only' the wrong hallway.
    Nothing justifies the shooting, but the circumstances seem not to be what was originally reported.
    It's, um, cute? that they're planning a blood draw to test for drugs and alcohol days after the event.

  • perlchpr||

    It's, um, cute? that they're planning a blood draw to test for drugs and alcohol days after the event.

    Yeah, I made a similar comment on the story there.

    What possible fucking good does it do to perform an alcohol screen 5 days late?

  • Drave Robber||

    Real men eat alone.

  • Vernon Depner||

    And then throw their McDonald's trash out the car window.

  • OldGuy||

    If god didn't want us to eat animals she wouldn't have made them out of meat. Nothing beats a slow smoked slab of sliced dead cow...except maybe the bowl of curry lentils and brown rice I had last night (which was really good).

    Eat what you want. Don't listen to your friends about what to eat unless they have a really good recipe. And don't listen to lazy Reason authors who obviously procrastinated and had to scramble to meat (pun intended) a deadline.

  • Shirley Knott||

    The best reason to become a vegetarian is not love of animals but hatred of plants.
    Allergy sufferers of the world unite! Eat your oppressors!

  • lap83||

    Animals do not share the love that vegetarians have for them. My adorable dog would eat me if I was small enough

  • vek||

    LOL If you think your lentils and brown rice were as good as some good brisket... You're mad, or have defective taste buds. I like rice, potatoes, etc as much as the next guy... And they can be grubbin'. But there's no comparison to a good piece of meat... Unless said potatoes have meat, cheese, etc in them maybe!

  • Mickey Rat||

    "Notably, the authors of the study, Roe and Paul Hurley, her colleague at the University of Southampton, believe veganism and vegetarianism to be far better alternatives than living an omnivorous life. In particular, the authors claim that "eating less meat is vital to a more sustainable future food supply," and cite land use and greenhouse gas emissions as factors in their argument."

    Scientists with an agenda push questionably designed study. Shocking.

    Of course, admitting to veganism is confessing that you are lower on the food chain.

  • perlchpr||

    Of course, admitting to veganism is confessing that you are lower on the food chain.

    After the apocalypse, between me and a vegan, only one of us still has a food source if the other dies.

  • Haha, charade you are||

    There's vegans, and then there's Vegans.

  • Tony||

    The Vegans are the ones with the universe's second-worst poetry right?

  • vek||

    As I said elsewhere above, the bottom line is being vegetarian or vegan is NOT the healthiest diet. IF you go really overboard, and out of your way, and take supplements, it won't kill you... But from all the reading I have done over the years, IMO the consensus a smart man will take away from all the research is that the "perfect" diet is probably about 70-80% vegetarian, with as little of that as possible coming from grains/starchy stuff, with the rest being meat and animal products.

    With supplements and insane effort you CAN get almost everything being vegan, but what's the point? It's a hell of a lot easier and tastier to just eat a lot of fruits/veggies and throw in the meat/animal products that EASILY and EFFORTLESSLY give you all those other odds and ends.

    The only reason people who go vegan THINK it's a miracle diet is because they tend to go from garbage ass modern American diets to that, which provides a short term improvement... But if they just went mostly veggie and kept in modest amounts of meat they'd see all the same results, with a lot less work. Most people do vegan wrong, because it's hard to do right, and ultimately end up having to go back to eating meat to get healthy again. I've had this happen to several people I know.

  • vek||

    Which leaves the ethical arguments.

    The global warming angle is retarded... Because that shit is waaay overblown. If man is contributing at all, it seems clear we're still far and away less important than natural cycles. Much of the land used for raising animals is garbage for growing crops too, so it's land use isn't much of an argument either.

    As for animal welfare, I care about animals. I don't really like modern factory farming in a lot of ways. The meat isn't as nutritious for one, and for two the animals kind of have a shit life. I buy grass fed and free range meat stuff a lot of the time, but not always. A cow running around in a field its whole life before getting slaughtered has it as good as any wild deer or buffalo ever has it. We kill them a lot more humanely than a wolf or lion does too, so I just can't feel bad about that. So buy grass fed if you have a problem with animal cruelty!

    And if any MAN still has a problem with killing animals on principle... Well, then I guess you're just a pussy, which is why vegans have this stereotype. That's a feminine bleeding heart position to take. It's a "But what about the children!!!" mindset. It's not manly. It's what a stereotypical woman would think. That's why far more women are vegetarian and vegan. So if you're doing it because you're ignorant of the health/environmental stuff, fine, but now you know better. But if you're doing it purely on ethics, you deserve the stereotype.

  • brec||

    From all the reading I've done over the years, what I take away is that a healthful diet is primarily starches, with at most condiment-portion additions of animal products. Conclusion: extensive reading is not (determinative of) the answer.

    I'm vegan not because I think small portions of animal products will kill or maim me, but because, for me, it's just easier to draw a bright line than to have concern about whether eating this or that would put me over 10-15% animal-based foods.

    I don't understand the claim of "insane effort" or "all those other odds and ends." What is that about, beyond taking a B12 supplement?

  • vek||

    If you're being serious, and not a smart ass, and think that basing your diet primarily upon starches is a good idea... I suggest you read more. As mentioned elsewhere almost ALL westerners eating a standard diet are deficient in most nutrients. This is because starches don't have enough of most vitamins and minerals we need to be healthy. They're found in vegetables and fruits.

    As far as the amount of meat, you're about right. It doesn't take a lot to get into the acceptable zone... But you can also go "over" the minimum a fair amount before it becomes bad. It's a wide range in reality, so your worry is fairly unfounded.

    As for the insane effort thing, most vegetarians and vegans IN PRACTICE are not eating a well rounded died. It can surely be done as I said, but the vast majority do not. It requires some pretty specific eating habits to really nail it down, whereas just tossing in a bit of meat/cheese/dairy cuts out a lot of odd ball things you have to eat with one fell swoop. This is because to get all the myriad of stuff that's in meat/animal products, you have to eat fairly large amounts of foods that aren't commonly found floating around easily in our diets, or even stores sometimes. A tiny chunk of meat cuts out needing to gorge on beans/nuts/supplements/etc pretty easily.

  • vek||

    You might find it easier to draw a magical line, which is fine I guess, but it's really not. It's not hard to eat a single steak a week, along with a chicken breast too, or whatever. You do you, but my position is every bit as correct as yours, and I think it's easier than having to pay close attention to eating odd foods + supplementing.

  • brec||

    OK, not just any old starches, but whole foods, not refined/processed stuff. A sizeable majority of my calories come from oatmeal, potatoes (incl. skin), beans, and corn. [Potatoes are, surprisingly to most people, nutritious aside from calorie content, but regardless...] I also eat a huge greens & fruits & vegs salad every day, but while nutrition-dense, that's not calorie-dense, and most of my beans are mixed with greens, etc.

    I cannot speak for most vegetarians. Perhaps one reason the way I'm eating seems easy to me is that I truly believe that my life depends on it. And "based on starches" seems to have worked also for mid-20th-C Okinawans, rural Chinese, etc.-- a far cry from the current standard Western diet.

  • mpercy||

    Be vegan, own it.

    But just SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT.

    When someone offers you a burger, just don't eat it. A simple "No thanks, I'm vegan." will suffice. If you start on a rant about eating meat is murder, many of us simply want to punch you in the face as hard as we can, repeatedly.

    Note that this applies to other areas of life...

    You're gay, we get it. And we don't care either way. So STFU about your sexuality. Just because I'm tired of of hearing about it doesn't make it a hate crime.

    You're Christian, we get it. We know you're supposed to spread the Gospel. But how about after the first time I ask you nicely to not proselytize me, you stop? And telling me over and over that I'm a sinner and going to hell sure doesn't make me NOT want to punch you in the face.

  • Tony||

    "No thanks" suffices for food. However, if I felt able to say "No thanks, I'm gay," I would have saved a certain female friend in high school a bout of depression. I wouldn't have dated her anyway, but still.

  • agario unblocked||

    thank you

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