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Death Penalty

Why Do Americans Support the Death Penalty, Despite Wrongful Convictions?

Reformers need to take into account people’s fear of crime and human predators.

J.D. Tuccille | 8.12.2026 7:00 AM

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Mug shots of Tracy Hampton and Pete Van Winkle | Illustation: Pinal County Sherif's Office/Phartisan/Dreamstime
(Illustation: Pinal County Sherif's Office/Phartisan/Dreamstime)

Amidst arguments over the morality of the death penalty and mistakes made in deciding who deserves punishment, some situations remind us why capital punishment retains support. Case in point: murder charges against Pete Van Winkle and Tracy Hampton for killing fellow prison inmate Kenneth Thompson, all three of whom were already on death row, in Pinal County, Arizona. Despite repeated revelations of mistaken convictions of the innocent and other perversions of justice, capital punishment remains popular because people want such psychopaths to never again pose a threat to life and safety.

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Arguments For and Against Capital Punishment

According to news reports, Van Winkle originally landed on death row because in 2008 he beat and strangled a fellow inmate in the Maricopa County jail. "After the attack, Van Winkle was seen dragging Cotton's body out of the cell and attempting to throw it over a second-floor railing," writes Mitchell Koch of WREG. "Hampton was serving a death sentence for the May 17, 2001, murders of Charles Findley and Tanya Ramsdell, as well as Ramsdell's unborn child." Hampton supposedly killed Findley because he told the police "where Hampton could be found to serve a traffic ticket," while Ramsdell was killed because she might have been pregnant with a mixed-race child. The inmate they recently allegedly killed, Thompson, was in prison for the 2012 hatchet murder of his sister-in-law and her boyfriend.

Better examples would be hard to find, of people you'd want permanently removed from circulation.

Against the examples of such human predators are counterexamples like that of Carmen Mejia, who was exonerated in May after spending 22 years in prison for the death of a 10-month-old boy scalded by bathwater. "Applicant has established by clear and convincing evidence that she is actually innocent of all three counts," according to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals. Likewise, Jesse Lee Johnson walked free after 25 years in an Oregon prison when prosecutors dropped the case in the face of new evidence, as did Lamar Johnson in Missouri after almost 30 years behind bars when a judge conceded "convincing and reliable evidence of 'actual innocence' to overturn the conviction," in the words of ABC News.

The Innocence Project is the organization most often credited with efforts to overturn false convictions and return innocent people to free lives. According to the Death Penalty Information Center, "since 1973, at least 202 people who were wrongly convicted and sentenced to death in the U.S. have been exonerated." Unfortunately, those who have been executed are beyond help.

Through the Decades, Most Americans Have Supported the Death Penalty

Yet fear of the Van Winkles and Hamptons of the world largely prevails over sympathy for the likes of Mejia and the Johnsons. Except for brief periods during the 1950s and 1960s, support for the death penalty has been a majority preference among Americans since Gallup began polling in the 1930s.

"When Gallup initiated this measure in 1936, 59% of U.S. adults favored the death penalty for convicted murderers," the pollster noted in 2022, "and majorities have supported it since then, with the exception of several readings taken between 1957 and March 1972, including the record-low 42% in 1966."

Pew Research agrees, noting last week that at 66 percent, "support for the death penalty is 6 percentage points higher than it was five years ago, in April 2021—though it is roughly equal to where it was in August of 2020 (65%)."

Interestingly, Pew adds that 68 percent consider the death penalty morally justified for murder, but 59 percent say the death penalty is not a crime deterrent and 73 percent say there is some risk an innocent person could be put to death.

The Dangers of Over- and Under-Punitive Legal Systems

This suggests that many Americans are willing to risk the dangers of occasional miscarriages of justice to punish serious criminals and remove the threat they pose to the public. That flies against the legal insight of legal commentator William Blackstone that "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." But it's a representation of public sentiment that legal reformers need to consider if they hope to improve the criminal justice system.

People are afraid of crime and of human predators. This point was driven home in recent years by the pandemic-era surge in both violent and property crime which has thankfully returned to its pre-Covid decline. For most people, the danger posed by criminals on the street is more pressing than the largely theoretical (unless they or their families are affected) perils of criminal justice system errors. And government legitimacy is largely based on its ability to keep the peace.

This position was well summarized in a landmark court case in South Africa, a country familiar with violent crime and government ineffectiveness. The 1995 South African Constitutional Court decision in S v. Makwanyane ultimately ended the death penalty in that country. But in a concurring opinion, Justice Laurie Ackermann wrote: "In a constitutional state individuals agree (in principle at least) to abandon their right to self-help in the protection of their rights only because the state, in the constitutional state compact, assumes the obligation to protect these rights. If the state fails to discharge this duty adequately, there is a danger that individuals might feel justified in using self-help to protect their rights."

Protecting life, liberty, and property are core functions of government. If they're not fulfilled, people will act on their own to punish criminals, real and imagined. That's probably where long-term support for the death penalty originates, since people fear the reality of the world's Van Winkled and Hamptons.

Advocating Reform While Respecting Fears of Crime

The proper counterargument is Blackstone's ratio about letting some guilty go free is to avoid wrongfully penalizing the innocent, but not just in the high-minded way it's often presented which can seem abstract to people fearful of crime. Blackstone's insight reminds us that a criminal justice system unable to effectively distinguish between guilt and innocence is just a horrible lottery. If innocent people are likely to suffer punishment, it makes sense for everybody to forcefully resist arrest or government attention of any sort, whether or not they've committed a crime.

"When innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, it is immaterial to me, whether I behave well or ill; for virtue itself, is no security. And if such a sentiment as this, should take place in the mind of the subject, there would be an end to all security what so ever," argued then-attorney John Adams in 1770, decades before he became the second U.S. president.

Americans support the death penalty because they want to combat violence and chaos. But a criminal justice system incapable of assuring the public that it won't kill the innocent threatens the most chaotic violence of all. Those of us who want a better criminal justice system need to respect public fears of crime and better present our message about the dangers of an overly punitive state.

The Rattler is a weekly newsletter from J.D. Tuccille. If you care about government overreach and tangible threats to everyday liberty, this is for you.

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J.D. Tuccille is a contributing editor at Reason.

Death PenaltyCriminal JusticeCriminal LawOvercriminalizationCrimecrime victims
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  1. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

    "That flies against the legal insight of legal commentator William Blackstone that "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.""

    It might behoove the "reformer" to understand that letting a guilty person go free is also a miscarriage of justice that not unlikely results in innocents suffering when the guilty think they can commit crime against innocents with impunity.

    1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

      Especially given the number of murders this year because socialist DAs and judges let the guilty go free.

      So the better question is do more innocent people die from actions to not lock up the guilty, or do more innocent people die from locking up the non guilty?

      Take a look at el salvador. Are there less innocent victims of cartel violence now than there are innocent people caught up in the sweeps of cartels?

      Reason will never admit to the violence form their ideas and the number of victims from it.

    2. GOD OF PENGUIN ISLAND   2 months ago

      William Blackstone didn’t live in a society with Marxist judges and DAs trying to destroy it.

      Unfortunately, given our current situation vigilantism is necessary.

  2. SQRLSY   2 months ago

    Reliable tech, to differentiate the psychopaths from the innocent... We do have the tech by now, but are afraid to use it, because of all of the tech-fear-mongers!

    (Brain scans of various kinds, is what I mean. No, I don't favor punishment for "pre-crimes." But the innocent should be set free. Brain scans could help!)

  3. agarrett   2 months ago

    "That flies against the legal insight of legal commentator William Blackstone that "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

    I can agree with this, but I also think the numbers he proposed matter, and are at least roughly correct. A justice system will never be flawless, and we can't go making the perfect the enemy of the good. 10:1 is, I think, a fair measure of what we mean by reasonable doubt. Again, not perfect, but sufficient. The article even quotes Blackstone correctly, but then keeps treating it as though he would be willing to let all guilty men go free rather than punish an innocent. Take numbers seriously.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      I agree with the sentiment but numbers only matter in context. Non-numerically, the justice system should do far more moral and social good than it does harm. And, outside activist retardation and cherrypicking, that's the case. They even make that case themselves out the other side of their double-tongued mouth.

      At other points in Blackstone's work he notes two people who were found guilty of manslaughter and executed only for the victims to later be discovered alive. The people were executed purely on circumstantial evidence.

      A big part of the retardation of The Innocence Project and associated legal political activism is the same contextual bullshit. Bullshit that if used against them, they would find to be immoral or dishonest. They'll refute direct and physical evidence with nothing but circumstance and conjecture. They aren't improving the system, they're pettifogging. Spinning the hands of the clock whimsically, declaring "Nobody can really ever know what time it is." and then ascribing themselves as virtuous when the hands land on the correct time.

      The exact sort of morally self-serving, self-righteous BS Blackstone was arguing *against* on behalf of The Monarchy.

      1. Liberty_Belle   2 months ago

        A big part of the retardation of The Innocence Project and associated legal political activism is the same contextual bullshit. Bullshit that if used against them, they would find to be immoral or dishonest. They'll refute direct and physical evidence with nothing but circumstance and conjecture. They aren't improving the system, they're pettifogging. Spinning the hands of the clock whimsically, declaring "Nobody can really ever know what time it is." and then ascribing themselves as virtuous when the hands land on the correct time.

        A quick browse through the Innocence Project archives will quickly prove the far most common cause of wrongful incarceration is police, prosecutorial, and judicial misconduct, malpractice, and outright malfeasance. The far majority of their "wins" are based on DNA evidence not available at the time ; evidence that blatantly displays the ramshackle poor cases against the defendant. It is not smoke and mirrors as you describe.

        In fact, go take a look at the Request Representation page and you will see what kind of criteria a case needs to even be considered by them to take on.

  4. MasterThief   2 months ago

    I like the idea of the innocence project, but it seems like every case from them reported on here is one where they're trying to find some superficial legal loophole rather than actually serving justice for the innocent.
    On another note, why would it be a libertarian argument that it is better for the taxpayer to be stuck supporting a heinous criminal for life rather than permanently remove that person from Earth?

    1. Minadin   2 months ago

      Innocence Project helped free a guy in my state who was, as part of the legal appeal, found to be actually innocent, not let off on a technicality.

      1. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

        But was he? Or did he just have the paperwork filed under a pro-criminal administration?

        1. Minadin   2 months ago

          No, he really was innocent.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_W._Ferguson

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfcv3HtjRLE

          1. Templeton Ferrari the 3rd (The Commentariat member formerly known as SCOTUS)   2 months ago

            I just wish we could get around to executing non fide serial murderers. Thomas Creech, who murdered my uncle, among many others, has been on death row in Idaho for forty five years now. FORTY FOVE FUCKING YEARS TO EXECUTE A SERIAL KILLER. And it still isn’t done.

            Just another reason to hate the left, who champion filth like this.

    2. mad.casual   2 months ago

      SSDD- Retarded people confuse rolling a 7 with Craps.

      To wit,

      Carmen Mejia, who was exonerated in May after spending 22 years in prison for the death of a 10-month-old boy scalded by bathwater.

      OK, being unduly favorable to JD and his understanding of Blackstone, assuming we have the scalded body of a 10 month old; how the fuck did a 10 month old get into bathtub of scalding water? Presumably they didn't draw a bathtub full of scalding water and then climb in themselves. Was somebody else convicted? Was the kid burned some other way, the Mom put them in a cool bath and by the time the EMTs got there the water was warm?

      That may not be TIP's jod, and that's a pretty critical flaw pointing to the fact that TIP isn't actually ensuring justice, but it absolutely is JD's job to report that. If the assertion is that "Craps is broken" something beyond "Carmen Mejia rolled snake eyes." is owed in support. Were the dice loaded or swapped out? Did somebody else throw the dice and she merely blew on them? Report the goddamned facts and whole goddamned story.

      1. GOD OF PENGUIN ISLAND   2 months ago

        Reason has been pretty consistent for at least a decade now undermining legitimate criminal justice reform by being dishonest.

        1. Dillinger   2 months ago

          ^^

      2. Fuzzyone   2 months ago

        It's too bad people can't be bothered to know what they are talking about before posting.

        "The CCA’s decision, on Jan. 22, 2026, found Ms. Mejia actually innocent of the death of a 10-month-old infant in her care who was critically burned from scalding bathwater due to a water heater in her rental home that lacked safety technology. Ms. Mejia has spent the last 22 years in prison for what the State claimed to be murder but now agrees was, in fact, a tragic accident."

        https://innocenceproject.org/news/carmen-mejia-exonerated-texas-22-years/

        The CCA is an incredibly conservative court so if they say someone is innocent you can be sure they are.

        1. GOD OF PENGUIN ISLAND   2 months ago

          So she put a 10 month old in boiling water but it’s not her fault because water heater?

          What is this safety technology? Because I’ve got a pretty new water heater and I could still easily burn a 10 month old if I drew a bath too hot.

          1. Liberty_Belle   2 months ago

            It's right there in the link ! Read !!

            “Burn injuries remain a leading cause of accidental injury and death among children. My research estimates that approximately 6,500 children experience tap-water scald burns each year in the United States. Between 2013 and 2022, there were approximately 1,600 tap-water scald injuries involving children under age 18 in incidents where another child was involved,” Dr. Shield said today.

            “The technology to prevent these injuries already exists. Devices such as thermostatic mixing valves and other temperature-limiting plumbing protections can dramatically reduce the risk of tap-water scald burns. However, these protections are not consistently required in older housing, leaving many families without basic safeguards. This is particularly concerning for renters, who often do not control the maintenance or temperature settings of the water heater in their homes,” Dr. Shield added.

            1. Rick James   2 months ago

              “Burn injuries remain a leading cause of accidental injury and death among children. My research estimates that approximately 6,500 children experience tap-water scald burns each year in the United States. Between 2013 and 2022, there were approximately 1,600 tap-water scald injuries involving children under age 18 in incidents where another child was involved,” Dr. Shield said today.

              As a parent of a child, this kind of smacks of the kind of statistic that's dismissed by over-credentialed childless cat ladies who deconstruct every horrific murder of children as the mother being tragically afflicted with post-partum depression.

              I don't know where the 6500 number comes from-- especially when the 6500 runs between 'injury' on the left side of the column and 'death' on the right side and... AND those numbers are lacking context in 6500 of those 6500 cases: Hot water from a pot spilled when a parent crosses the galley kitchen with a boiling pot and little Timmy was uknowningly under foot is light-fucking-years from "I put my baby in a bath of boiling water, but I didn't know it was boiling because a cheap, easily available technology was white-supremicastly, socially unjustly denied my hot water heater."

              As a parent, I have some statistics up my sleeve too: Many women worry that if they let a newborn sleep with them in bed to minimize the extra time and energy required to breast feed in the middle of the night, they might roll over on top of and suffocate the baby. According to statistics, the rare times this happens in the United States, drugs or alcohol are usually involved... Make of that what you will.

              1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                Total Births in the US between 2013-2022: ~31.5M
                Total tap water scaldings 2013-2022: ~6,500
                Total deaths of children from any burn injuries (including fire) 2013-2022: ~9,000

                Presuming every baby gets at least one bath in the last 10 yrs., even if we just blindly convict every parent of every child of burn injuries/death, we're still at least 2 orders of magnitude away from Blackstone's Ratio. And Mejia wasn't blindly convicted of scalding her baby to death.

                It is in no way unreasonable for 12 people to think, without a doubt, that Mejia scalded her own baby to death even accidentally.

              2. GOD OF PENGUIN ISLAND   2 months ago

                “According to statistics, the rare times this happens in the United States, drugs or alcohol are usually involved... Make of that what you will.”

                Yeah, you should never give your baby drugs or alcohol.

            2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

              The technology to prevent this is aware parenting and testing the damn water.

            3. GOD OF PENGUIN ISLAND   2 months ago

              I don’t always read links, but when I do, it’s because the point presented by the person posting the link isn’t retarded.

              As I said, I’ve recently replaced my water heater. I wasn’t even presented an option of a “safety technology” connected to my water heater, nor would I have purchased it if offered.

              Because I already had a couple “safety technologies” for giving my baby a bath, the first being a rubber ducky with a thermometer, the second was my own fucking hand that I put in the water before I put my baby in it.

          2. mad.casual   2 months ago

            AFAICT he's doing a decent job of undermining TIP's work and revealing why JD avoided the subject.

            Anti-scalding pre-sets and thermostatic mixing valves have been legal standard longer than I've been alive.

            Despite their supposed support for the presumption of innocence, I'm supposed to, somehow, be omnisciently aware of all the facts before the reporter reports them and we're all irredeemable, systematically malicious ghouls for unreasonably expecting a woman would exercise more care for a 10 month old than she would for a cup of coffee or a pot of spaghetti.

      3. IceTrey   2 months ago

        Why was the water heater turned up to scalding?

        1. Rick James   2 months ago

          Why did mom not realize the water was scalding before dipping her clump of cells into it?

          1. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

            I remember a time when the common knowledge was to dip your elbow in the water before the kid to test the temp.

            1. Michael Ejercito   2 months ago

              Nevertgress, she was innocent if murder (which requires either intent or recklessness)

              1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                Technically, she was not innocent of murder. 12 people found her guilty.

                More self-defeatingly retarded; she was exonerated because the water heater manufacturer/installer lacked intent.

                Again, there's more than one way to retard justice and at least one conception that retarding it one way and then retarding it back the other way doesn't produce better justice.

    3. Rossami   2 months ago

      "every case" except the ones cited in the article above where judges used the words "actual innocence" (or equivalent)?

  5. Chuck P. (Now with less Sarc more snark)   2 months ago

    The actual problem is that prosecutors focus on the heinous nature of a crime over the evidence. Because prosecutors benefit from being perceived as champions of justice.

    An innocent person must have been convicted based on circumstantial evidence.
    Stop asking for the death penalty where the crime is horrible, but the evidence is circumstantial. Reserve it for cases where there is a witness or overwhelming physical evidence like the shitbag caught disposing of a body.

    1. James K. Polk   2 months ago

      I've wondered about having a separate standard for imposing the death penalty, a standard of greater certainty than 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Something like 'no doubt whatsoever' or 'absolute certainty'.

      1. mad.casual   2 months ago

        Would it make you feel better if all judges were referred to as "(S)He whose name we dare not speak." and they passed down the sentence by saying 'avada cadavra' too?

        Either you believe Kyle Rittenhouse was justified in his actions or he wasn't. If he was, then it doesn't much matter if it was Kyle of Ofc. Rittenhouse or Magistrate Rittenhouse weighing lives in the balance; much less whether he had 'beyond a reasonable doubt', 'no doubt whatsoever' or 'absolute certainty'.

        If you believe he wasn't justified in his actions, that doesn't make you any less of a zealous, immorally self-righteous religious fundamentalist or rabid tyrant than he himself is.

        You and your simpaticos have repeatedly demonstrated that raising the standards to 'absolute certainty' just means you will retard yourself further about knowing, with or without absolute certainty one way or the other, what a woman is.

  6. mad.casual   2 months ago

    That flies against the legal insight of legal commentator William Blackstone that "it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

    [Sigh] JFC, fuck you dishonest asshats. This is practically an inversion of the meaning of Blackstone's Ratio. Moreover, tell me you failed HS Probability and Statistics *and* Rhetoric and Debate without telling me you failed HS Probability and statistics *and* Rhetoric and Debate.

    Riddle me this retard Tuccille: The bodies of 11 wives are discovered in 11 separate homes, all stabbed to death, with 11 husbands standing over them, steeped in blood, murder weapon in hand. Is Blackstone saying we have to either let 10 or one go free?

    Blackstone was railing against Royal and Ecclesiastic courts that were convicting 9/10 people largely without evidence or jury. His argument wasn't that people are never guilty, is argument was that a Monarch and such a court system is or can be wrong even if only by degrees.

    Rather than cherry picking arguments that support some of your feelings out of context. How about you actually read and understand Blackstone? You might find passages like:

    Whether death may be lawfully inflicted for this or that transgression, the wisdom of the laws must decide it : and to this public judgment or decision all private judgments must submit ; else there is an end of the principle of all society and government.

    or

    It is clear, that the right of punishing crimes agianst the law of nature, as murder and the like, is in a state of mere nature vested in every individual. For it must be vested in somebody ; otherwise the laws of nature would be vain and fruitless, if none were empowered to put them in execution : and if that power is vested in any one, it must also be vested in all mankind ; since all are by nature equal.

    or (keeping in mind two quotes prior, if you can),

    And we may add, that those instances, wherein retaliation appears to be used, even by the divine authourity, do not really proceed upon the premise of exact retribution, by doing to the crimanal the same hurt he has done to his neighbour, and no more ; but this correspondece between the crime and punishment is barely a consequence from some other principle. Death is ordered to be punished with death ; not because one is equivalent to the other, for that be expiation, and not punishment. Nor is death always an equivalent for death : the execution of a needy decrepit assassin is poor satisfaction or the murder of a nobleman in the bloom of his youth, and full enjoyment of his friends, his honours, and his fortune. But the reason upon which this sentence is grounded seems to be, that this the highest penalty that man can inflict,

    ...that make your interpretation of his unbridled defense of both the 10 guilty and one innocent person seem dishonest.

    Read the fucking Chapter about "The Bloody Code" where Blackstone documents the dozens-to-hundreds of offenses for which people could be executed. He's decidedly not opposed to execution. His point is that the proliferation of excessive punishment in the judicial system corrodes the moral firmament on which the system is supposed to stand.

    Even if you assume he was anti-death penalty, he (supposedly) falls for the same stupidity in his time that you're ignoring in yours; that, then and today, despite the fact that we still kill people and the system proliferates the punishment on paper, we're actually killing fewer people (and imprisoning more for life) in a system no less corrupt or destructive simply because it refuses to kill people more prolifically.

    Fuck Reason Magazine for trying to make people stupid.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      Blackstone's Anti-Libertarian Retardation Ratio: It's better to pass 10 laws mandating execution and enforce them against one than it is to pass one law mandating execution, or life in prison, and enforce it against 10.

      There's a solid fucking argument that Blackstone was mum, if not leaning towards the latter.

      Your quote and the invocation of it is as retarded as, if not more than, "You can't yell fire in a crowded theater."

  7. Marshal   2 months ago

    This is a good article. Most death penalty opponents (Megan McArdle for example) wave away recidivist deaths by claiming they are rare, but of course so are the wrongfully convicted put to death. Therefore the inescapable conclusion is that these people justify their conclusions by wrongfully devaluing the lives lost due to their preferences rather than because there is a clear net benefit.

    Unspoken in this article but an obvious factor is that DP supporters know that there will be times when left wingers and/or liberaltarians control the legal system and whose goal is to let everyone out. There is no way to prevent this other than the DP. It's not a coincidence that opposition to the death penalty was highest in the 50s and 60s before progressives marched through our institutions putting them in position to achieve this bureaucratically and against democratic support. As people understood this risk some moved back to supporting the DP as a reluctant best option even though it is obviously flawed. At least with it there is pressure to improve rather than devolve as the Innocence Project shows.

    1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

      Californias appeal board just declared they can undo sentencing and release people sentenced to life without parole.

      1. Marshal   2 months ago

        Nothing could be less surprising. If you believe that all crime is society's fault it follows logically that no one should be in jail. That's why they claim to believe this in the first place.

        1. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

          Yeah, the career criminal that harms someone is the victim.

          The make believe victim crowd shows very little respect for real victims.

        2. Michael Ejercito   2 months ago

          Of course, they are quick to blame the gun owner if the gun is stolen and ysed in a crime.

    2. mad.casual   2 months ago

      Even underneath that, there's the engagement in tautological or paradoxical retardation to slake Pollyanna-esque indulgences.

      Self-defense is a natural law, but truly objective natural law has no objections against killing the shit out of entire genuses for no particular reason other than "They should've known better."

      Feed your dog regularly so that they're full and not wanting of food and then let them go in a yard full of rabbits if you don't believe me. All but the most miniscule and torturously inbred species or infirm older dogs will murder the shit out of hundreds of rabbits just for the sheer joy or habit of flailing the life out of them between their jaws.

      So, like poverty, death and murder are the default states. It's not the law's job to prevent death any more than it is to prevent poverty. Strong attempts at doing so even strongly infringe on people's rights to defend themselves and earn a living beyond merely subsisting for themselves.

      Locking people in cages in order to prevent the next homeowner from shooting them for burglary minimizes the deaths but nowhere near every crime is so succinct. And we're nowhere near the society under which Blackstone was, supposedly, railing against excessive executions. If anything, we're in a Bizarro version of his society where we grant too many rights to people who've killed too many people in service to The Crown.

  8. Spiritus Mundi   2 months ago

    Reformers need to take into account people’s fear of crime and human predators.

    Homo(cide)ophobes!! Why can't you bigots accept murderers!!! Not all murderers are bad people!!! We need them to do the killings Americans won't!!!

  9. James K. Polk   2 months ago

    If you let ten guilty people go free, then 100 innocents will suffer. Blackstone's wasn't talking about the people we send to death row.

    The critical value Tuccille completely misses is justice. For some crimes, anything less than the death penalty is a miscarriage of justice.

    1. Rossami   2 months ago

      For your metric to be true, there would have to be a recidivism and crime-solving/prosection error of 10 to one. That is, each guilty person freed goes on to commit 10 more crimes without being stopped. A, I think that's untrue but B, if that is true, that's the problem to solve!

      Most criminals are stupid and most criminals do not get away with their crimes. The statistics are more like 'let 10 guilty people go free and you'll have 5 more victims'. That's still a tragedy but it's a tragedy balanced against the tragedy of wrongly convicting the innocent. And since there are a lot more of us innocent than criminals out there, the total harmed scales away from your intuition.

      1. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

        What a fucking dishonest take. Not every single innocent person gets tangled up in serious criminal cases in their life, so that's not the correct population. Is TIP 1:10 murderers out on on actual evidence, or far less and usually on procedural grounds? What you're really demanding is perfection or nothing.

        The recidivism is solved through the DP, you just want the more expensive option so you have a chance to unleash monsters on the rest of society (see Soros DAs actions). The DP is not always, or usually, appropriate but it has it's place.

        1. Liberty_Belle   2 months ago

          Again for people insisting on not reading what it takes to have your case taken up by The Innocence Project; the first two criteria are:

          The Innocence Project ONLY considers cases that are:

          1) The trial has been completed, an appeal has taken place and the person is serving their sentence.

          2) There is physical evidence that, if subjected to DNA testing, will prove that the applicant is innocent. This means that physical evidence was collected — for example blood, bodily fluids, clothing, hair — and if that evidence can be found and tested, the test will prove that the applicant could not have committed the crime. The applicant must have been convicted of a crime. We do not review claims where the applicant was wrongfully suspected, arrested or charged, but not convicted.

      2. mad.casual   2 months ago

        For your metric to be true, there would have to be a recidivism and crime-solving/prosection error of 10 to one. That is, each guilty person freed goes on to commit 10 more crimes without being stopped.

        This is a retarded and dishonest non-sequitur. Blackstone's ratio isn't restrained and/or doesn't apply to recidivism one way or the other and it's a dishonest fabrication to pretend that it does.

        His specific point was literally about people being convicted by The Crown without evidence and frequently without a jury. Neither of which applies to even the cases TIP rightly corrects.

        The statistics are more like 'let 10 guilty people go free and you'll have 5 more victims'. That's still a tragedy but it's a tragedy balanced against the tragedy of wrongly convicting the innocent.
        ...
        And since there are a lot more of us innocent than criminals out there, the total harmed scales away from your intuition.

        This is an oxymoron. Either the state, through selective and deliberate inaction, precipitated the death of 5 innocent people in order to free 10 guilty people, violating Blackstone's Ratio, or there aren't "a lot more of us innocent than criminals out there".

        Again, Blackstone wrote 4 books, over 125 Chapters in total, to distill it all down into one, fixed ratio which you then backhandedly violate in defense of your own supposed moral superiority is specifically in opposition to the vast majority of what he wrote. You may as well piss on his commentaries and declare yourself King.

  10. TD   2 months ago

    I would accept ending the death penalty, and don't really see that much justice is served by executing some prisoner grown old 20 or more years after they've been sentenced. However, this does at least keep them in prison a long time. You can't trust the death penalty opponents to support life in prison. Too many think a stern talking to and perhaps six months of rehab should be sufficient.

  11. Thoritsu   2 months ago

    Because:
    - We have plenty of people
    - We can make more if we need
    - Paying to house, care and feed an incorrigible person for life is slavery for the payers, but if you want to pay for it, that is fine.
    - The number of people who are really mistakenly sentenced is trivial. Maybe there are a handful from 30 years ago.

    Why the fuck would we waste people's money on this. Sentence them, and end the waste within 2 years.

    1. Rossami   2 months ago

      Are you volunteering to be one of the people on death row despite innocence? How about your kids? Are you going to be equally cavalier about civil rights and legal protections when it's your son or daughter being accused on weak evidence?

      The number who are mistakenly sentenced is not trivial. These are real lives and it's still happening. (Yes, the ones overturned are mostly "from 30 years ago" - because that's how long the process takes.)

      1. Spiritus Mundi   2 months ago

        Are you going to be one of the people willingly murdered by somebody let off death row? What about your children? Are you going to be equally cavalier about civil rights and legal protections when it's your son or daughter being murdered by a career criminal let out by lefty judges?

      2. Templeton Ferrari the 3rd (The Commentariat member formerly known as SCOTUS)   2 months ago

        ‘Mistakenly sentenced’. What about mistakenly executed? Is there even a single case in the last 50 years?

      3. Thoritsu   2 months ago

        If that makes all this go away, and is NEVER spoken of again except as the slavery paying for criminals is? Yes!

        Oh you mean would I stand in a trial of my peers with whatever evidence can be brought, and see if they will endorse the death penalty, Even better.

  12. TJJ2000   2 months ago

    They still have a glimmer of hope Justice is still being ensured.
    Which is humorous after the J6 protest to obviously fraudulent elections got prosecuted.
    Especially the ones that weren't even there.
    How does one get prosecuted for an event they never attended?

  13. Murray Rothtard   2 months ago

    everyone seems to be discussing this as if its a binary choice between "execute all murderers" or "hand them free weapons and send them out on the streets to murder more people."

    the exonerated mentioned in this article are pretty poor examples of the tragedies of capital punishment, because none of them even received it. in a world without capital punishment, their lived experience would be identical: wrongfully imprisoned until the mistakes of the justice system are brought to light.

    i def believe that many crimes warrant the death penalty morally, but the state has made too many errors imo for us to let the state mete out completely irreversible punishment. that is why i oppose the death penalty as punishment.

    to be perfectly clear, i also vehemently oppose leftist judges letting violent criminals simply walk, or have no bond while awaiting trial, etc. improving the justice system will require BOTH being tough on crime, and also working to minimize the damage of inevitable mistakes. don't fall victim to false choices.

    1. Rossami   2 months ago

      You can't brush them off as "poor examples" when the system is set up such that those are the only examples that exist. Once someone is executed, they no longer have standing to pursue their claim of innocence. There is no legal avenue to exhonerate a person who was wrongly convicted post-execution.

      That said, I agree with your conclusions in your 3rd paragraph.

    2. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

      ""leftist judges letting violent criminals simply walk, or have no bond while awaiting trial, etc.""

      FWIW, they thought doing this was improving the system.

  14. BioBehavioral_View   2 months ago

    An Imperfect System
    Human-derived systems are imperfect. Only the Cosmos and God are perfect. So, what to do with murderers? House them for decades in penitentiaries? At what cost to society? Admittedly, the actual imposition of the death-penalty has become a ludicrous farce lasting decades. If we're going to do it, do it! Yes, a few innocent people will be executed. As said, human-derived systems are imperfect.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      Yes, a few innocent people will be executed.

      Moreover, letting criminals run free does not near conclusively diminish the death of innocents, repeatedly throughout history. Even if the "innocents" are recidivistic criminals breaking in to someone's home to steal bread to feed their starving kids and wind up shot by the homeowner who would otherwise be "reformed" sitting in prison.

  15. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

    Because we know you're dishonest, lying cunts that hate us and want to see us suffer. You are not pro-reform but pro-criminal and will use any lie to further that goal. You are not demanding better but perfection and nothing will never be enough for the activists. Once you abolish the DP, you'll move on to life sentences then 40 yrs and on and on until you're demanding parades for double homicides.

    1. Liberty_Belle   2 months ago

      *slow clap*

      Fox News strikes again.

      1. Templeton Ferrari the 3rd (The Commentariat member formerly known as SCOTUS)   2 months ago

        YIu mean by being totally correct, and where you have no counter argument? Sure. But this is the kind of bullshit comment we expect from you, and your kind.

        1. Liberty_Belle   2 months ago

          https://www.npr.org/2023/02/28/1159819849/fox-news-dominion-voting-rupert-murdoch-2020-election-fraud

          In the heat of the moment, right after Election Day 2020, media magnate Rupert Murdoch knew that the hosts on his prized Fox News Channel were endorsing lies from then-President Donald Trump about election fraud.

          And he did nothing to intervene to stop it.

          Instead, Murdoch, the network's controlling owner, followed the lead of the network's senior executives in sidestepping the truth for a pro-Trump audience angered when confronted by the facts.

          Asked whether he could have told Fox News' chief executive and its stars to stop giving airtime to Rudy Giuliani — a key Trump campaign attorney peddling election lies — Murdoch assented. "I could have," Murdoch said. "But I didn't."

  16. Fred12345   2 months ago

    Just read the headline, but JD makes no sense with that headline. Since there are wrongful convictions, why have any laws at all? Does he think wrongfully convicted prisoners should stay in prison? Do wrongfully convicted parkers need to pay their fine? How can the reason editors allow this lack of reason?

  17. JonFrum   2 months ago

    Any nation without the death penalty is not civilized. "Because 'something' you can't do anything' is neither a rational nor a logical statement. We send innocent people to prison, therefore no one can be imprisoned? It is exactly our belief in the sacredness of life that we demand death for murderers. And no, we do not need to let a thousand murderers live to save the life of one innocent man. We do our best. That's all we can do.

  18. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

    Are we still doing the jury spoke?

  19. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

    You can be for the death penalty and against innocents being punished.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      +1

      Blackstone wrote over 100 chapters and mentioned "One in ten" once. His work wasn't titled "Why we should let 10 guilty people go free for every innocent person we wrongly accuse/try/convict." He wasn't writing policy, it was one comment in 4 books full of comments where he acknowledges many, many, many more times, that death is or can be just punishment for crimes.

  20. Dillinger   2 months ago

    I prefer outlawing to state-killing

    >>But a criminal justice system incapable of assuring the public that it won't kill the innocent threatens the most chaotic violence of all.

    you seek perfection in a perfection-free universe. two-headed snakes happen.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      I prefer outlawing to state-killing

      Blackstone's United Kingdom, or the supposed ideal being inferred from it, is still a thing. They don't execute criminals there. People still have a choice.

      1. Dillinger   2 months ago

        I think the choice in the new UK is be raped or be raped. I may throw support behind the IRA again

        1. mad.casual   2 months ago

          I think the choice in the new UK is be raped or be raped.

          Let 11 immigrants into the country illegally, but find a rape, pin it on the 12th whether they're guilty or not, and execute them.

          Less onerous immigration process? Done.
          Less rape involuntary conjugal cultural diversity? Done.
          Don't violate Blackstone's Ratio? Done.
          Hang the "Freedome Achieved" banner from 10 Downing St.

          We need a real reckoning with the fact that public education doesn't increase reasoning or intelligence.

          1. Dillinger   2 months ago

            I like it. Shoulder-fired rockets at approaching boats work too. Erin go bragh.

  21. mad.casual   2 months ago

    With the lawyers it is a new thing. they have in the mother country been generally the firmest supporters of the free principles of their constitution. but there too they have changed. I ascribe much of this to the substitution of Blackstone for my Lord Coke, as an elementary work. in truth Blackstone and Hume have made tories of all England, and are making tories of those young Americans whose native feelings of independance do not place them above the wily sophistries of a Hume or a Blackstone. these two books, but especially the former have done more towards the suppression of the liberties of man, than all the million of men in arms of Bonaparte and the millions of human lives with the sacrifice of which he will stand loaded before the judgment seat of his maker. - Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 17 March 1814

  22. IceTrey   2 months ago

    The death penalty isn't to deter crime or protect society it's to balance the scales of justice. The problems with it currently are caused by the shitty society we live in. If we lived in Libertopia it wouldn't have those problems.

    1. Jim Conley   2 months ago

      In anarchotopia we just lynch the fuckers and the lynch mob better get it right because if facts arise that clear the deceased there's going to be another lynching.

  23. mad.casual   2 months ago

    Blackstone ratioed:

    Today, Supreme Court justices cite Blackstone more than any other commentator on everything from the constitutionality of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the continued vitality of Roe v. Wade, and subpoenas to the President. In all, they cited him in eleven cases last term, and the term before in thirteen. In a court that only decides sixty-some cases each term, that means Blackstone appears in one-in-five cases give or take.
    ...
    To capture the influence of Blackstone in the Colonies after the Revolution, we have to look beyond pithy quotes and even formal institutions. After all, there were only four law professors in the young country by 1794. Most early lawyers apprenticed and read the law, formal instruction was sporadic. They also outlined in blank books (then called common-placing) legal principles from their readings of authorities suggested by older lawyers.
    ...
    To capture the influence of Blackstone in the Colonies after the Revolution, we have to look beyond pithy quotes and even formal institutions. After all, there were only four law professors in the young country by 1794. Most early lawyers apprenticed and read the law, formal instruction was sporadic. They also outlined in blank books (then called common-placing) legal principles from their readings of authorities suggested by older lawyers.

    A review of some of these still-existing outlines show that Blackstone did not play a central role in eighteenth century legal education. Instead, many were dominated by Bacon, Coke, and Hale. Chief Justice Marshall cited Blackstone just a handful of times in his outlines.

    And, tellingly, the Founders’ correspondence, with the exception of Adams, only sporadically referenced the man — often to bash him.
    ...
    Even so, Blackstone’s influence did not immediately reach the Supreme Court. Between 1801 and 1830 of the 856 signed opinions the Court produced, only sixteen (some two percent) contained citations to Blackstone. And Blackstone was offered up to the Court by advocates on behalf of the parties in only 68 of the 856 opinions (about six percent). A far cry from today’s numbers.

    In short, the timeline does not support the Court’s truism that Blackstone was the equivalent of a common law oracle at the Founding. He was known of course. But he was not cited as much as he is today, he was not treated with the same reverence, and the Commentaries were not viewed as unimpeachable.

  24. Grifhunter   2 months ago

    All government endeavors have risk of bad outcomes. Almost every major bridge built by the government in the last 150 years has had a fatality occurring during the construction process. Yet we persist in building bridges, working to learn from and not repeat the errors that result in deaths.
    The death penalty is just another type of government endeavor whose process is subject to rare but real human error. In the age of DNA and video evidence, we can eliminate much of the risk and thus free our prisons of murderers, and give families the justice they deserve.

  25. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

    "People are afraid of crime and of human predators."

    This is a rational fear. I am one of the people who believes that executing criminals should remain an option in some cases, even if it means that a rare innocent person will be wrongfully killed by the state. I agree that capital punishment is not a factor in preventing crimes, although it is frequently forgotten by some that if you execute someone that person will NEVER AGAIN commit a crime. Having said that, I do not trust the State to get it right. The best preventive measure I'm aware of is for the intended victim to kill the perpetrator in self defense during the commission of the crime.

  26. chemjeff radical individualist   2 months ago

    Wow, some of the comments here are amazing. And by 'amazing', I actually mean revolting.

    Especially revolting are the comments along the lines of, "Sure, the death penalty is imperfect, sometimes innocent people are put to death, but that's okay, I support that, and I want the government to do more of that." At least the murderers on death row were honest enough to do the killings themselves. The keyboard warriors here want to outsource their murders to the government.

    1. Jim Conley   2 months ago

      How about only heinous criminals who are obviously guilty before trial get executed and then as swiftly as possible? Like Jared Lee Loughner (who was nearly killed on the spot by a witness who wrestled the gun away from him), the neuroscience grad student outside the theater with a gun and the a pile of bodies on the floor, a serial killer with a collection of souvenirs and bodies buried in the yard etc

  27. DRM   2 months ago

    Well, see, the biggest reason the public doesn't care about the "wrongful convictions" is that death penalty opponents lie their fucking asses off about them.

    For example, they'll count it as one of their 200-odd "exonerations" when pettifogging over legal technicalities gets a retrial ordered, and the prosecutor gives up because a new conviction is too hard to get relative to available resources.

    I mean, just as a hypothetical, let's say multiple doctors and nurses tell the police that a particular infant was quite obviously beaten to death, with injuries completely inconsistent with claims of a fall; in the trial, the pediatric neurosurgeon testifies powerfully to that effect.

    Let's also say that the prosecutor -- not the pediatric surgeon, and in an argument not actually related to the surgeon's testimony -- was silly enough during arguments to utter a theory referencing some then-fashionable but now-unfashionable medical theory at trial. And so a quarter-century later a court voids the conviction of the guy who beat the baby to death.

    Well, there is no way that the doctors and nurses -- some of whom have died and some of whom have moved far away -- have clear, accurate memories of a battered infant they saw for a matter of days a quarter-century earlier; any defense attorney could easily demonstrate that. And the body of the infant is long buried and decayed, so instead of the physical evidence of abuse you have a written record of the injuries in the autopsy report; the defense can easily hire their own "expert" to assert that the account of the injuries in the autopsy are consistent with some custom-fitted alternative explanation.

    Faced with that, the prosecutor looks at the time, effort, and money necessary to try to put the murderer back on death row, the much lower odds of conviction now that they're stuck with only what evidence has survived more than two decades, and works out that the public good demands he spend his office's resources on other cases. He accordingly declines to re-prosecute.

    Well, after all that, do the the anti-death-penalty advocates admit they freed a man who beat an infant to death as part of their ideological crusade? Of course not. They'll loudly and publicly announce that they saved an innocent man from death row.

    Stack up enough of those phony "exonerations", and the general public will get appropriately cynical about all exoneration claims. Almost no members of the general public will pay enough attention to be able to accurately retell the story of any specific case where an obvious murderer went free, no, much less be able to argue it against a clever anti-death-penalty wordcel. But they'll still retain the entirely correct impression that the actual purpose of the self-named "Innocence Project" is to prevent the execution of blatantly guilty baby-killing monsters.

    And so, every time the crusaders claim an exoneration, the general public will, completely justifiably, roll its eyes and assume that the actual story is that another monster has evaded justice.

  28. Malvolio   2 months ago

    Withholding the death penalty over concerns about wrongful conviction are — and I’m trying to be polite here — moronic.

    At least 500 people and perhaps a thousand are murdered each year by already-convicted murderers who were not executed. It’s not clear that anyone has been wrongfully executed in the US ever, but nobody believes it’s as frequent as one a year.

  29. Get To Da Chippah   2 months ago

    The fix to me would be that, in order to have the death penalty be an option at sentencing, the prosecution agrees to a higher burden of proof during the trial. Proof beyond all doubt, or something like that. Clear video evidence or something like that, and a confession alone may not even qualify as evidence since we know those can be coerced.

    If the defendant is found guilty, the death penalty may be considered during sentencing. If acquitted, the defendant goes free. And if the trial looks like it will not end favorably for the prosecution, no plea-bargains or lowering of charges may be permitted.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      Proof beyond all doubt, or something like that.

      No one doubts or questions that Mejia herself dunked her baby in a bathtub full of scalding water that she herself drew.

      The exoneration was because judges and activist lawyers felt that the jury was wrong and that, despite all the efficiency and health and safety regulations and market demands for scalding hot water from the tap, Mejia's baby and even Mejia herself were the victim of a brutal regime perpetrated by Big Water Heater.

      And the TIP has people like you saying "We need to raise the criteria for reasonable/doubt!"

  30. Jim Conley   2 months ago

    OK, "we all know" that many heinous criminals are obviously guilty. Smoking gun in hand with corpses littering the floor, multiple eyewitnesses with no axe to grind, confessions through boasting and bragging to multiple people before apprehension, video like the Fed-X driver who decided to rape and murder a toddler after delivering her Christmas gift of Barbie Dolls etc. Not enough of these criminals even get the death penalty and, when they do, they take up space, eat and breath for decades on end. Then there's the poor SoBs convicted by suborned perjury from jailhouse snitches, the withholding of exculpatory evidence, flimsy forensics w/o other corroborating evidence, coerced confessions, a single witness with an axe to grind and little, if any, other evidence, and of course incompetent or overburdened counsel that fails to offer a through defense. Ideally, the first batch gets tried convicted and executed in less than a year, the second stand trial but the death penalty is off the table

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