Eyes on Gorsuch as SCOTUS Weighs Transgender Student Athlete Bans
Plus: Still waiting on the tariffs case.
The U.S. Supreme Court heard oral arguments this week in a pair of cases that ask whether state governments may prohibit transgender girls and women from playing on girls' and women's school sports teams. As I sat down to review what occurred during the course of those arguments, I was particularly interested to hear what Justice Neil Gorsuch would have to say.
Why the special interest in Gorsuch? It was because of his 2020 majority opinion in Bostock v. Clayton County, a case that asked whether firing an employee for being gay or transgender violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which made it illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant or employee "because of…sex."
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Gorsuch held that such firings of gay or transgender workers did violate Title VII. "An employer who fires an individual for being homosexual or transgender fires that person for traits or actions it would not have questioned in members of a different sex," Gorsuch wrote in Bostock. "Sex plays a necessary and undisguisable role in the decision, exactly what Title VII forbids." Many conservatives were outraged at Gorsuch over this ruling, even though Gorsuch took a page from the late Justice Antonin Scalia in his Bostock decision.
So, a big question for me this week was whether Gorsuch, the author of a landmark "liberal" decision that extended employment discrimination protections to transgender workers, might now be sympathetic to the arguments of the transgender student athletes fighting the state laws that govern their participation in school sports.
Gorsuch did seem sympathetic at certain points to the arguments made in support of those transgender student athletes. For example, during the oral arguments in one of the cases, Little v. Hecox, Gorsuch pressed Idaho Solicitor General Alan Hurst to explain why the law passed by his state should not face a very aggressive form of judicial review.
"There's another way to think about this case that your friends on the other side posit," Gorsuch told Hurst. "And that is that transgender status should be conceived of as a discrete and insular class subject to scrutiny, heightened scrutiny, in and of itself given the history of de jure discrimination against transgender individuals in this country over history."
In a case involving the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which this case does involve, the Supreme Court has repeatedly held, in the words of Black's Law Dictionary, that if the legislation "involves a suspect classification (such as race), it is unconstitutional unless it can withstand strict scrutiny."
In other words, if Gorsuch thinks there might possibly be grounds for viewing "transgender status…as a discrete and insular class subject to…heightened scrutiny," that would mean that any state regulation of transgender student athletes would need to clear a very high judicial bar or else risk being struck down for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Needless to say, the state's lawyer was probably not thrilled to hear Gorsuch giving voice, even in the form of a question, to such legal arguments.
To be sure, none of this means that Gorsuch will definitely vote against the state laws. But it does make it conceivable that he could.
Still No News About Tariffs
If you're like me, you were probably glued to your computer screen yesterday morning in the hopes of learning the fate of President Donald Trump's tariffs at the hands of the Supreme Court. But while the Court did release not one but three opinions yesterday in argued cases, none of those three happened to be the eagerly anticipated Learning Resources v. Trump.
Normally, when the Supreme Court is weighing a case of this magnitude, I simply assume that the decision won't be arriving until mid or late June, when the current term wraps up. But there is a kind of urgency to the tariffs case (if Trump loses, how do the rebates work and when do they start flowing?) that suggests we could get a ruling much sooner, perhaps even as soon as this month. But as yesterday's lack of legal news about tariffs also reminds us, only the justices themselves truly know when a decision is going to drop, and they aren't telling.
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From the clips of the oral arguments, Gorsuch's absurd reasoning in Bostock had him arguing in such an esoteric and abstract sense it was rather difficult to follow where the logic was going. In the facts of this case, transgender status is irrelevant because segregation in sports based on sex is allowed under Title IX in order to give females space to be competitive in school sports. Hormone treatment does not make a male functionally equivalent to a "girl" as the plaintiffs lawyers insist.
Gorsuch's absurd reasoning in Bostock had him arguing in such an esoteric and abstract sense it was rather difficult to follow where the logic was going.
Sounds less like using logic to elucidate or validate conclusions from evidence and more like tracking an animal by its scat without knowing what the animal is.
And even if transgender is a special class, it's still a distinct class from women/girls. And female only sports have been accepted and allowed forever. So I don't see how that even helps the argument for the fake-girl athletes. They can start a trans-only league if they want to.
Scotus already ruled trans cant be a special class last year. Barrett wrote for the majority that the fluidity of Trans means they are not a protected suspect class. She pointed out the percent who detransition as an example. There is no consistent objective measure of trans for it to be constituted as a protected class.
Which I'd say is the right judgement. Just musing on the consequences of the other option.
I would support them having their own retard league, but given the previous ruling, it probably makes the most sense to keep it simple and just say "compete with your biological sex and stfu", not giving them any ground
The plaintiff's argument is M to F Trans are girls and are not being treated as girls under the statute due to illegal discrimination based on Trans status.
The argument hinges largely on accepting the premise that M to F Trans are, for the law's purposes, girls/women.
And, if they are, then the entire reason for sex segregated sports disappears in an instant.
The whole thing is just one giant idiotic ouroboros.
What they will end up with in place of women's sports will be mens sports, and trans sports, with women nowhere to be found.
That's right. Can't see why the court would go down that rabbit hole of a special subclass. A man taking hormones is not a woman. He's just a man taking hormones.
If the court chooses to go down the rabbit hole and treats trans men as a special subclass, then it should be a special subclass of men, not women.
Pretty easy response to Gorsuch's question.
They can start a trans-only league if they want to.
Disagree, as I indicated below traipsing around the oxymoron or paradox in more and more dimensions only proliferates the paradox.
To wit, even if you specifically define male, female, and intersex to the strictest of objective biological constructions, the public vs. private and can't vs. must discriminate policies, including all the holes poked in them still apply.
I think Bostock was correctly decided.
Here is my logic.
You are punishing a man for sleeping with men.
You would not punish a woman for sleeping with men.
Therefore, the punishment is because of his sex, and it's sexual discrimination.
It's a lot simpler and straightforward than most arguments
How this transitions here is also quite simple.
If a woman can wear a dress, you cannot punish anyone for wearing one.
However, as long a valid team exists for the person to join, then there's no discrimination because you are not punishing them. You are disagreeing with a categorization.
Now, to steelman this, if the league banned the child from the girl's team because he's male and also said that the child cannot participate in the boys team because the child is called a girl. THAT could become discriminatory.
Gorsuch took a page from the late Justice Antonin Scalia in his Bostock decision
Took a page and wiped his ass with it. If your employer, male or female, gay or straight, is harassing you in a sexual manner (or several employees are harassing you and your employer, once notified, doesn't intervene), it's sex discrimination. If you're an employee soliciting for sexually-oriented anything at work, you're the harasser and your employer shouldn't tolerate.
Again, it looks like "100 duck-sized horses or 1 horse-sized duck" may've been an intellectual high water mark in Gorsuch career and, even then, his ability to reason on this and several other cases severely calls into question whether he understands the numerical difference and use-of-force capabilities between the two.
Still better than KBJ, but RBG was hurtling that bar on the verge of passing out drunk.
Firing a Gay or Trans person simply due to their sexual preference should be illegal. Firing a person who happens to be Gay or Trans for other reasons such as due to performance, lack of ability, etc, should be legal and held to the exact same standards of people who are not Gay or Trans.
Competitive sports that have separate divisions for Male and Female people should be based upon genetics and not desired gender identity. Surgery to alter your appearance or hormone shots do not change your genetics related to being male or female.
If a competitive sport does not have separate divisions, it does not matter.
Non-competitive sports even if they do have separate divisions, it usually doesn't matter. It gets slightly grayer, but only if there is limited availability to participate. In those situations, genetics should be the metric used and not preferred gender identity.
Co-ed softball leagues tend to have strict rules about female participation. You forfeit or take penalties if there aren't enough women on the field or in the lineup.
Yes I helped run one back in the day. If you only four women available to play you had to play only nine fielders, no matter how many men were available.
Bostock was clearly a travesty. It is clear from when Title VII was enacted that there was no intention that "sex" would mean anything other than biological sex and not gender identity or sexual orientation. The law is written to protect against discrimination on the basis of that which is immutable, not preferential. The idea that the law should protect a person's choices in addition to biological reality is absurd but certainly does follow along the same irrational trajectory of the Supreme Court in regards to its rulings on homosexuality.
Yeah Bostock was clearly judicial activism because absolutely no one asserts that writers of the statute or the constitution ever anticipated that they would be applied to trans people. It's a slippery slope and Gorsuch gave it a hard push. And here we are.
Indeed. Law is supposed to be based on objective reality which is observable and definable. Allowing it to be based on subjective reasoning would be like allowing a criminal to be tried and convicted on hearsay regardless of the evidence. While certainly there can be subjective interpretations of objective reality, allowing them to worm their way into the administration of law quickly moves us into the Orwellian realm of 1984 and the idea that perhaps 2+2 does equal 5.
"We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men." ~ George Orwell
It should be legal to fire a tyranny based on the fact that all trannies are psychos
Plaintiff lawyer: "My client is a girl and is being illegally discriminated against because of Trans status because The Science has not definitively proved that she is not functionally equivalent to a female!"
Justice: "What is a girl?"
Plaintiff lawyer: " I cannot possibly define what a girl is, but my client assuredly is one."
The plaintiff's case hinges on accepting a premise that is pure postmodernist sophistry. If one refuses to define a term, another cannot say that term does not apply. It is a painful line reasoning to listen to.
It's one the court should shut down with prejudice and a magazine named Reason should be scrutinizing.
Gorsuch was not channeling scalia yesterday Damon. He was channeling Sotomayor. Who is the justice that convinced him to be cute during Bostock in a convoluted ruling. Using a subjective twisting of legal construction.
In order for a legal system to work it needs to be clear abd understandable by the public, not solely by legal professors. Professors who will twist laws to reach a desired outcome are corrupting the law.
Scalia believed in originalism. Using words as they meant at the time. Not changed words and post modernist sophistry like Gorsuch in Bostock.
Youre a failure Damon.
>>He was channeling Sotomayor.
yes. and poorly.
Pshaw! Only the anointed Clergy are able to properly divine the Will of God... I mean... uhm... what are we talking about?
One "minor" difference with Bostock is that Title VII prohibits discrimination based on sex, and Title IX REQUIRES discrimination based on sex.
Just for the record:
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
Reading that again, it almost seems like it should ban women's (or men's) only sports. Men are excluded from field hockey teams in most of the US, for example.
That is how I read it. By law colleges shouldn't be allowed to have anything that is gender specific.
Unless they are 100% privately funded.
The oral arguments discuss this issue at some length. Segregated women's sports have always been allowed and even required under Title IX due to the disparity between average male and female base athletic ability.
What you are talking about simply is not a possibility.
Unless they are 100% privately funded.
This is incorrect. The EEOC can and does say private businesses can't discriminate on sex based on Title VII. This is specifically why Bostock was fucked.
Again, even if you drew them a diagram, this scene may as well be in Chinese for all they could understand.
In more 'ancient' or two-dimensional terms, this is 'pincer', hammer and anvil, rock and hard place. Walking around an oxymoron in multiple dimensions doesn't inherently resolve the oxymoron.
Scotus has ruled that in this case it requires separate but equal.
The seats in the back of the bus are exactly the same seats. Totally equal.
We had no men's volleyball team, softball, or gymnastics. You can argue softball is the same as a women's baseball team. You can say there isn't enough interest in male gymnastics to purchase equipment or hold competitions. They probably conflate field hockey with hockey and pretend men's and women's lacrosse is the same game.
There are sports where you can say men aren't allowed equal access, but track and swimming aren't among them.
We aren't even having a real conversation if we don't acknowledge that the divisions are based on biological sex and understand the reasons for it.
One "minor" difference with Bostock is that Title VII prohibits discrimination based on sex, and Title IX REQUIRES discrimination based on sex.
Right. This critical to the point about Scalia above. Critical to your point is that A) the controversy is direct in the abstract (without regard to private vs. public or employees acting, or not on behalf of employees) and B) self-contained in a/the singular piece of legislation.
However, the odds of SCOTUS telling Congress to "Go back and do it again." on the CRA is slim-to-nonexistent and even, while I think it's a good idea in the abstract, I think that given the current circumstances, the odds that we aren't going to get a better result are high.
Plus: Still waiting on the tariffs case.
Perhaps the Wizard should give the lion some courage already.
If I get medically assisted black face (a drug to make my skin black instead of makeup) - does that make me a person of color?
"I'm C. Thomas Howell!"
Yes, because color and ethnicity are less hardwired than biological sex.
Wait!? You guys pull this joke and I can't make nigga' jokes? (turns out people think your less racist if from Boston, but only because they can't use a hard r... Or the letter a
"Black's Law Dictionary, that if the legislation "involves a suspect classification (such as race), it is unconstitutional unless it can withstand strict scrutiny.""
So let me see if I have this straight: it's okay to classify school kids into "Girls" and "Boys" for the purpose of assigning them to sports teams, but it's not okay to classify transgender kids into "Girls" and "Boys" for the purpose of assigning them to sports teams? Are Supreme Court Justices REQUIRED to be idiots in order to be appointed to the Supreme Court?
The argument is that there is no scientific evidence that proves a male undergoing hormone therapy for transitioning is not functionally equivalent to a female, therefore it is illegal discrimination to not treat them as a female.
It is an argument so foolish only an intellectual could buy into it.
So let me see if I have this straight: it's okay to classify school kids into "Girls" and "Boys" for the purpose of assigning them to sports teams, but it's not okay to classify transgender kids into "Girls" and "Boys" for the purpose of assigning them to sports teams?
I'm not sure what you mean here. When you say 'classify transgender kids into "Girls" and "Boys" do you mean the SYSTEM classifying them as "Girls" and "Boys" based on biological reality, or accept the self-classification of those who declare themselves to be in this category we colloquially call "trans"?
I'm talking about the government classifying kids as boys or girls. What legal theory allows the government to assign kids to boys or girls sports teams in the first place? Once you say that it's okay for government to classify boys or girls, what legal principle forbids government from classifying trans-gender kids? They are BOTH forms of discrimination based on gender. What if every public school district in America assigned trans-gender kids to separate transgender sports teams? What then?
Once you say that it's okay for government to classify boys or girls, what legal principle forbids government from classifying trans-gender kids?
I guess I'm still confused. We already DO classify "transgender" kids. They're classified based on whether they're boys or girls. If a boy shows up with a wig, nail polish and says, "my pronouns are they/them" or "she/her" we classify him as a boy.
What legal theory allows the government to assign kids to boys or girls sports teams in the first place?
Oh, also on this, we do all kinds of things to classify kids to boys and girls sports teams just like we wouldn't allow the boys in the girls locker rooms. So why do we allow boys in the girls locker room when all they have to do is show up in a wig, nail polish and say their pronouns are "they/them/she/her"?
"What legal theory allows the government to assign kids to boys or girls sports teams in the first place?"
Have your parents not given you The Talk yet?
Transgender students are not being banned from school sports.
They are only being banned from sports teams reserved for the opposite sex; they are not being prohibited from sports teams reserved for the same sex.
Even then I think it's only trans in women's sports. You can't have a man on estrogen or a woman on testosterone because it's a competitive advantage similar to steroids. I haven't heard of many ftm causing issues trying to play in men's sports. Maybe there was one where a girl did swimming topless showing off her mastectomy scars
True, and the are ZERO girl-to-boy trannies seeking serious sports roles, which demonstrates the obvious silliness of this crap.
>>Still waiting on the tariffs case.
lower court overruled because non-justiciable ... the only answer.
Reason loves science except for that biology part. That is all bullshit.
"Transgender girls and women" = boys and men LARPing as females.
Science is Science.
Listening to the oral arguments, I thought I was watching the movie Idiocracy. As a society, how did we get here? Men can never be women and women can never be men... It's quite literally that simple. Outside "appearance" does not define the biological makeup of men/women, boys/girls. No amount of hormones or medication or surgery can change one's biological sex.
I can't wait until this stupidity ends.
. As a society, how did we get here?
Let's just say there was a LOT of agreeing to disagree that took place over the last 50 years with one side getting their way 99.876% of the time.
Why the special interest in Gorsuch? It was because of his 2020 majority opinion in Bostock v. Clayton County, a case that asked whether firing an employee for being gay or transgender violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which made it illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant or employee "because of…sex."
Gorsuch held that such firings of gay or transgender workers did violate Title VII. "An employer who fires an individual for being homosexual or transgender fires that person for traits or actions it would not have questioned in members of a different sex," Gorsuch wrote in Bostock. "Sex plays a necessary and undisguisable role in the decision, exactly what Title VII forbids." Many conservatives were outraged at Gorsuch over this ruling, even though Gorsuch took a page from the late Justice Antonin Scalia in his Bostock decision.
What an utter drooling pack of retards the 'analysts' must be if they're equating firing someone for being gay or "transgender" (which by the way are such entirely different categories they really shouldn't even appear in the same sentence. It would be like saying one shouldn't be fired for being gay or dressing inappropriately) with allowing guys in women's sports, especially when the cases above hinge on biological sex being a reality. The ACLU is quite literally arguing for the victimization of women through an argument that logically concludes they don't actually exist.
And by the way, all kinds of jobs allow discrimination based on sex.
If I wore heavy enough makeup and a convincing enough wig, worked my way into the women's restroom or locker room and then when someone noticed my rather impressive erection, demanded I be fired, would I be able to shout "discriminashunz" because I was trans?
Exceptions do NOT prove the rule ... they UNDERMINE the rule. Controversial issues continue to make for very bad law. Not only should the government get out of all gender issues totally, the government should also get totally out of abortion and education entirely.
The government involved itself the moment it opened a one-room school house. Now, I'm all for playing the agree-to-disagree game and say, "Sure, the government shouldn't even be involved in any part of the education system... but in the meantime, until we can get them 100% devolved and all government schools closed, we're going to segregate sports and washrooms by biological sex".
The last thing I'll say on this is, it wasn't a situation where everyone was minding their own business and suddenly Fox News decided there needed to be a law. For all of human history there was never a law to ban boys from girls sports because there was a general human understanding as to why we did that. But then around 2015 a horrid little group of sexual deviants and trolls decided "Hey, there's no law, let's go into the girls' bathroom!". Now we need a law. The law is the reaction, not the action. The action was that a dude forced his way into my daughter's changing room. That was the action.
There seems to me tobe a logical problem. If a boy says he feels like a girl, how would he know what a girl feels like, not being one? This seems more than a little circular.
That's not for you to say. That's only for him to say. Lived experience and all that.
" If a boy says he feels like a girl, how would he know what a girl feels like, not being one?"
He knows what his munchausen-by-proxy woke Mom told him to say, and that's all that we need to pump him full of hormones and chemically castrate him, damnit
Gorsuch is the real deal, the most objective, unbiased SCOTUS justice, hands down. We need more like him to offset the big government totalitarian, Bill of Rights trampling conservative pretenders like Roberts and Barrett, and even worse, the totalitarian left justices O-Dumb-Ass appointed, who care nothing about the Constitution and just vote with their party’s beliefs.
In Bostock, Gorsuch sounds reasonable, as the protected class was in fact a priori defined by perceived or declared sexual orientation, which renders the employer's individual acts of discrimination to be based on sex, having no bearing on the potential employee's qualifications for a paying job.
It would seem not to be the same thing in the current case. The offended class is all human beings of a certain medical history that raises disputation over an individual's currently-unresolved appropriateness for assignment to an educational institution's sports team. In other words, qualifications ... not sex.
In Bostock, Gorsuch sounds reasonable, as the protected class was in fact a priori defined by perceived or declared sexual orientation, which renders the employer's individual acts of discrimination to be based on sex, having no bearing on the potential employee's qualifications for a paying job.
If you consider both an incorrect or selectively dishonest interpretation of the law and the facts "reasonable".
Sexual orientation (i.e. with whom one prefers to mash their genitals with) ≠ Sex (i.e. one's genitals).
Therefore, discrimination based on sexual orientation ≠ discrimination based on sex.
And, even at that, the thing being defined as a class or an attribute of a class both doesn't void individuality and confer motive, certainly not under the precepts of presumed innocence and least burdensome intervention. It's the same backwards-virtue, hyper-reductionist, can do no wrong of good intentions: if you fire one black person for any reason, you're firing all black people because you're racist. He even skirts a lot of other minutiae in his rendering (one employee in one incident doesn't constitute any sort of pattern or policy).
It's why the Langbehn's lost their case and Bostock (and others) should've. If he'd recruited after hours, outside the office pool (additionally), for a league unrelated to work, for a non-LGBTQ function related to work, or multiple people all LGBTQ all recruiting for the same LGBTQ softball league (or not) got fired by multiple employees, there's a more solid case they were systematically discriminated against by their employer, but little to none of that is present in Bostock.
Rounding off all the unreasonable parts of an argument that are supposed to be considered in the argument is torturing reason and/or the law to arrive at a conclusion that seems reasonable. It appears reasonable but that's the point, it's made to look that way because it's not. Honesty, reason, and justice aren't supposed to just round off the parts that don't support the narrative, even at a fairly "red cars go fast, but not all cars are red and not all red cars go fast" low level.
If Bostock would've been recruiting for an explicitly heterosexual office softball league, even if no sex was involved and homosexuals could participate, it's possible, if not likely, he would've been fired the same way. It's the same categorical stupidity or "Stochastic Martyrdom" we see from subversive agitators.
He's not as dumb as KBJ or Sotomayor, but he's not particularly bright either.