No, ICE Agents Do Not Have 'Absolute Immunity' From State Prosecution
How J.D. Vance misstated the law.
According to Vice President J.D. Vance, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer who shot and killed Renee Nicole Good in Minneapolis cannot be prosecuted for it by Minnesota officials. "The precedent here is very simple," Vance declared. "You have a federal law enforcement official engaging in federal law enforcement action—that's a federal issue. That guy is protected by absolute immunity. He was doing his job."
But the precedent is not actually so simple. In an 1890 case known as In re Neagle, the U.S. Supreme Court held that a federal marshal named David Neagle was "not liable to answer in the Courts of California" after he fatally shot the would-be assassin of a Supreme Court justice named Stephen Field during an attack on Field that occurred on a train traveling through California (Neagle was present as Field's official bodyguard). "Under the circumstances," the Court said, Neagle "was acting under the authority of the law of the United States, and was justified in so doing." Therefore, "he is not liable to answer in the courts of California on account of his part in that transaction."
Vance may have been thinking of In re Neagle when he claimed that ICE agents possess "absolute immunity" from state prosecution. However, In re Neagle was not the Supreme Court's final word on the matter.
You’re reading Injustice System from Damon Root and Reason. Get more of Damon’s commentary on constitutional law and American history.
Sixteen years later, in Drury v. Lewis (1906), the Supreme Court allowed a state court to weigh murder charges filed by local officials against a U.S. soldier over the killing of a man suspected of stealing copper from a federal arsenal in Pennsylvania.
As part of the legal briefing in that case, Assistant Attorney General Milton Purdy cited In re Neagle in support of a Vance-like argument that called for shielding the soldier from any and all state prosecution. Here is how that argument is summarized in the U.S. Reports:
Even though [the soldier] used more force in attempting to make the arrest than he was warranted in using under the law, nevertheless since he was engaged in performing a duty imposed upon him by a law of the United States, the state courts are without jurisdiction to call him to account for the excessive use of force in performing a duty which the Federal laws commanded.
But the Supreme Court declined to adopt that sweeping argument in Drury v. Lewis. Instead, the Court held that the guilt or innocence of the soldier "was for the state court if it had jurisdiction, and this the state court had, even though it was [the soldier's] duty to pursue and arrest [the suspect] (assuming that he had stolen pieces of copper), if the question of [the suspect] being a fleeing felon was open to dispute on the evidence."
In other words, even if the soldier was doing his job by chasing down the suspect, the state court still had jurisdiction if the lawfulness of the soldier's use of force against the suspect "was open to dispute on the evidence."
And it was open to such dispute. According to some witnesses, the soldier did not shoot a "fleeing felon" at all; rather, those witnesses said the soldier only shot the man after he had surrendered. The Supreme Court thus left it up to a state court (and state jury) to untangle the thorny dispute over lawful versus unlawful use of force by the soldier. The state murder trial was free to proceed.
In short, Vance's blanket assertion that federal agents enjoy "absolute immunity" from state prosecution is contradicted by Drury v. Lewis and is therefore unsound as a statement of law.
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Absolute immunity? No. Functionally you are going to have trouble prosecuting a federal agent at the state level for legal actions taken in the course of duty.
Root has a small nugget of truth in his point, but he's still staking a position that defies the law and reality. Maybe he should honestly look at this whole situation from a legal perspective. If he did then he wouldn't be entertaining prosecution of Ross regardless of jurisdiction questions.
No, Root is entirely correct to point out that JD Vance's statement of the law was false. That's a separate matter from whether in practice any prosecution will flow.
Like Damon, shrike ignores the totality and context of a comment. He ignores actual precedence. Because shrike is retarded like Damon.
As a matter of precedence, in some states a charge of assault with a deadly weapon can be brought against a defendant wearing shoes, as a shod foot may qualify as a deadly weapon .
Whether such a charge is justified obviously depends on how fast the foot inside the shoe is moving, for walking cannot be conflated with aiming a karate kick.
So how are your disinterested efforts to calculate the speed of a certain SUV coming along ?
Have you said anything that hasn't been retarded?
The acceleration of a car has zero effect on case law or precedent. You've been told this but are too retarded to understand it. Why?
Are you autistic?
I’m not sure if Root is so much retarded here as disingenuous, although it could be both. He obviously means to smear Vance. Just like he and his fellow travelers smear Trump many, many times every day here.
Shorter shrike: Our left wing narrative has completely collapsed so let’s not talk about the actual event and aktually a tweet.
So how fast was the Honda Pilot moving when the fatal shot was fired ?
Irrelevant.
How fast would it have been moving if the driver had not been shot?
Also, a car moving at 1 mph is sufficient to kill you.
Same interval, same speed.
Thank you for getting the order of magnitude right, unlike Jesse.
When was i wrong? I've pointed out multiple times it is an irrelevant question. Just like your entire posting history.
When you asserted here that it was doing 10 mph.
I see RetardGPT has entered the chat again.
How fast would it have been moving if the driver had not been shot?
Pretty hard to say in this case. Seems likely enough that it would have been slower. Shooting a driver doesn't stop a car (as many videos of the incident make clear). I'm not arguing that that means the officer acted illegally. It happened quickly and he had to react quickly to a potentially deadly situation. But it seems like something worth considering when training for situations like this.
Training officers on acceleration speeds of all makes and models then requiring them to do mental math within 1.5s of ghe incident?
Please dont play into his games of irrelevance.
The shooter had ample time to take aim, and fire three shots all of which hit his target.
Which was moving away from him, its wheels turned ~30º to the right, less than half as fast as he could walk.
You don't have to do any dimensional analysis to lean out of the way of something moving at , at most, a few feet per second.
Capiche?
914 MPH is 1470.94 KMPH.
Quit trying to parse this. It’s it getting you anywhere. At this rate you’ll probably die penniless and insane trying in vain to use a peanut as a phonograph needle. Just like George Washington Carver.
Oh, and Walz +6
Lol.
Stfu retard. Your “point” is stupid.
vvhats up with this low effort posting?
He is autistic.
Has zero bearing on the case retard. Why do you keep asking a pointless and retarded question?
I can literally link you a story of a cop dying from being hit from 2 feet out.
Youre just autistic and retarded.
1 MPH is slightly less than eighteen inches a second.
Three feet a second fits the ballistics of the windscreen and two side window hits
Is being bumped at two miles an hour by a rear view mirror a just cause for manslaughter?
And has zero relevance to the actual case.
Again. I literally posted a story a few days ago if an officer getting trapped under a car from a similar distance and dying.
The speed doesnt stop the weight of the car, the torque of the wheels, and the ability to kill.
You remain one of the most retarded people here.
Answer the question.
Lol.
Become relevant.
Nope, we’re not playing CSI Strawman with you. This has been litigated to death here. The shoot was clean. No amount of your lies and obfuscation will change that.
Your rabid fellow traveler went looking for trouble, found it, and then gunned her vehicle at a federal officer, who reacted correctly. This cost her her own life, should your kind continue this behavior, more of you will be badly injured, or killed.
Best you learn your place, and stay out of the way.
72 mph is 62.56629 knots.
72 mph is also .0000107% of light speed.
You should tell PE, he’s very interested in such things!
Damon Root once again takes a statement, ignores what was said and the contextit was said in, then tries to fact check what he imagines what was said.
In this case the officer was performing his legal federal duty. He fired legally while being hit with what even the state of minessota deems a weapon when used against an individual. He fired shots in self defense. Yes he has absolute immunity from the state in that situation. The state can not go after him. It would go to a federal court where they will dismiss based on precedence and case law.
Damon Root is a failed lawyer turned activist.
> The state can not go after him.
I wouldn't put it past the state to try, just for the political theatre of resisting the federal administration. Even if it goes nowhere, I could see "we tried" resonating with some voters.
The entire JD context for this quote was about the state trying to try the officer, which Damon ignores.
The state will definitely try (even though Minnesota law considers a car a weapon and justifies the shooting in its own legal system) which is where JD points out they cant.
Damon chooses to ignore this.
Of course. And when tossed people will be riled up because they think justice wasn't served just because it wasn't made to their liking.
Well, I disagree with both you and Root about much of this. The question is not what Vance thinks about the law, or whether the shooting was or was not justified. The legal question here is whether the shooting was justified on its face or whether there is legal doubt about the justification for the use of deadly force. A nation of laws, not men, should insist upon a proper investigation into any and all use of deadly force by any and all law enforcement officers - ALWAYS! The rest of us need not have the same confidence in the outcome of such an investigation based on public knowledge of the event to date that YOU seem to have. While I agree that the track record of law enforcement agencies looking into the misdeeds of their own officers is dismal, lately there seems to be a trend away from coverups and towards holding officials criminally liable for murder.
Please give us your definition of proper. FBI is already investigating. We have videos. We can look at legal precedence. I dont yield to your appeal to authority when facts are on hand.
I so find it amusing you demand an investigation then claim you dont have trust in the outcome. Shows you dont actually care about the truth.
You are free to read the case law and watch the videos. The reason I have the evidence i base my opinion on is because im not intellectually lazy and did the above.
What a weird post.
Presuming the facts of the case as you've laid out, that would not make them immune to prosecution. That would make them innocent of any possible charges. The two are very different things. If the feds decline to prosecute, the state is free to attempt to prosecute and have the officer found not guilty.
We have "precedents" from 1890 and 1906, but Root did not mention Lon Horiuchi.
In 1997, Boundary County, Idaho Prosecutor Denise Woodbury, with the help of special prosecutor Stephen Yagman, charged Horiuchi in state court with involuntary manslaughter over his killing of Vicki Weaver. The U.S. Attorney filed a notice of removal of the case to federal court, which automatically took effect under the statute for removal jurisdiction[11] where the case was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge on May 14, 1998, who cited the supremacy clause of the Constitution which grants immunity to federal officers acting in the scope of their employment.[6]
You have to remember. Damon root is a failed lawyer turned activist.
If a fed agent qualified for state prosecution it was Horiuchi.
Idaho couldn't even prosecute for involuntary manslaughter after sniping a woman holding a baby.
One of my friends is acquainted with Randy Weaver. Kind of an odd guy, but he wasn’t bothering anyone when the Feds decided to try and strong arm him into being their undercover informant.
Failed at being barely human scum and so, turned to activist journalism.
BIPOCs vs. AWFLs vs. Hamas Protestors is just the tip of the SJW hierarchy iceberg.
This would be horizontal stare decisis and not as binding as the SCOTUS rulings.
"supremacy clause of the Constitution which grants immunity to federal officers acting in the scope of their employment."
What if the scope of their employment is unconstitutional? What if the law he was enforcing was unconstitutional? What if he was acting outside the scope of his employment? Who decides? Who has the authority to appeal the "automatic removal?"
How is enforcing congressional laws unconstitutional?
What is wrong with you?
Definitely not the individual states.
Humorous, but silly, hypothesizes. Good and her wife were the ones violating federal (immigration) law by interfering with the ICE operation.
This is akin to when the 8 seditionists hypothesized about military members not obeying illegal orders. None were really suggested, of course, but it was implied that Trump had given illegal orders to the military. The very strong presumption is that the orders given by their commanding officers are legal. It’s well above most of their pay grades, and with their lower rank, if they ignore such orders, and are wrong (which is likely) ignoring such orders would be grounds for a court marshal.
Ditto here. There is very little question that the orders here for ICE agents are completely legal. The US government has exclusive jurisdiction to enforce immigration law, as enacted by Congress. And the person with the power to do so is the President. And those to whom he has delegated that power, such as ICE agents. And he has made very clear that he wants those laws enforced. More, he has made very clear that he expects them to be enforced.
Oh look, you're a liar. The exact next sentence from your source of wikipedia: "The decision to dismiss the charges was reversed by an en banc panel of the Ninth Circuit, which held that enough uncertainty about the facts of the case existed for Horiuchi to stand trial on state manslaughter charges.[6] "
As such, per your source, the federal appeals court ruled that yes, because the feds declined to prosecute the federal law enforcement officer, the state was free to do so.
Bob, I will cite the reference of the En Banc 2001 Appeals Court of Idaho reversal of Horiuchi 1997 (US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit - 253 F.3d 359 (9th Cir. 2001) ). Not because i want to start a war, but because in the early installments it almost reads as Poetry. It's worth reading. It was also the subject of a PBS documentary ( American Experience documentary "Ruby Ridge" (2017).
It start about the competing State and Federal interests in terms of juxtaposed Sovereignty.
Here is a short exert of the introduction:
"It was, in the words of Justice Kennedy, the genius of the Founding Fathers to "split the atom of sovereignty." U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779, 838 (1995) (Kennedy, J., concurring). What this means in practical terms is that, within the territory of every state, two sovereigns--the state government and the federal government--reign cheek to jowl. From the dawn of the Republic, this unusual arrangement has led to a fair degree of conflict, as the actions of one sovereign have encroached on the prerogatives of the other."
and: "This conflict reflects, not the defects of the system, but its virtues, because the beneficiaries of these competing sovereignties are the citizens of the United States. As Alexander Hamilton foresaw:..."
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/253/359/576174/
1. The agent defended himself.
2. Waltz specifically signed a bill in 2020 saying lethel force is usable if someone accelerates towards you
3. You are defending invaders and pedofiles. You are sub human
You are a bootlicker.
Such wit. You appear aggrieved. Please tell us more.
So, this isn't as bad as Root's other legal analysis articles but he still misses an important distinction here.
The soldier was dealing with a *state level* crime. The ICE agent fired to prevent a federal crime. Attacking a federal agent in the performance of their federal duties is a federal crime,
So it's not a simple 'haha the state gets jurisdiction' here and precedent is with the federal courts dealing with this UOF.
MN sues Trump in what will be one of the most laughable lawsuits ever.
""The complaint focuses on “Operation Metro Surge,” the name the Trump administration gave to its deployment of federal immigration enforcement agents from multiple DHS agencies to Minnesota, specifically to the cities of St. Paul and Minneapolis, an “unprecedented surge” that has involved “[t]housands of armed and masked DHS agents [who] have stormed the Twin Cities to conduct militarized raids and carry out dangerous, illegal, and unconstitutional stops and arrests in sensitive public places, including schools and hospitals—all under the guise of lawful immigration enforcement.”""
""The complaint argues that the federal immigration operations are unconstitutional and unlawful, as violations of the First and Tenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, the federal Administrative Procedure Act, Minnesota’s right to Equal Sovereignty, and violations of state and local laws.""
Are they that dumb?
""This “massive deployment of armed agents to Minnesota bears no connection” to the federal government’s claimed objective of fighting fraud, the complaint continues, “""
I guess they are. This is not about fighting the fraud. It's about immigration enforcement.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/just-in-minnesota-sues-trump-admin-for-federal-invasion-of-the-twin-cities/ar-AA1U56xV?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=DCTS&cvid=fcf4371c2c354e1dd86cb156860c0ce8&ei=12
SCOTUS has already spoken on the issue via Arizona v USA. Minnesota has no say on immigration enforcement.
The argument from Isgur and French was that as a practical matter, there's no chance this guy gets prosecuted, but as an academic exercise, it's theoretically possible he could be tried on state charges in a federal court.
But he was clearly acting in his federal capacity when this happened, even if he violated federal policies while doing so.
What's more interesting to me is that Vance finds it necessary to have this argument at all. I guess he's unwilling or unable to argue that the actions were the right thing to do.
It is not theoretically possible due to decades of precedent.
He literally said in that same statement that the officer was justified because he was acting in self defense. It's funny how people just (not) hear what they don't want to hear.
This cop may not have absolute legal immunity but as a practical matter he is absolutely immune from prosecution by the state of Minnesota. This is all political theater.
^This
If the feds decline to prosecute or later drop their charges, then there is no supremacy at issue, the state becomes able to prosecute.
Good luck with that.
In a legal sense, Damon Root is completely justified in putting himself in front of the ICE vehicle and demanding they get out.
In a practical sense, even if he has the popular support to effectively stop this specific ICE officer from taking any further action, it is unwise for him to force the situation in such a manner.
But, if retards suddenly developed 110+ IQs when the situation demanded it, we wouldn't be where we are.
Funny how Reason had no concerns if the shooting of Ashli Babbitt was legal or not...
In that case it was clearly legal. No doubt about it.
Cite?
Statements by Lt Byrd and Speaker Nancy Palzie. Plus possibly statement by President-in-Name-Only, Joe Biden.
You’re such a fucking retard Tony.
A capitol police officer working in the capitol itself (all of which is federal jurisdiction) is a bit different than a ICE agent working on the streets of Minnesota, no? Do state's not have their own jurisdiction for actions that happen wholly within their state?
I am not saying that if charged, it wouldn't be removed to federal court and probably dismissed. But the charging itself is left to the MN state authorities for any potential violations of state law. Which I believe the feds figured out quickly when they decided they wouldn't do a joint investigation with state authorities and instead left it all to the FBI. I am sure, even though most relevant dept heads have already made a hero of the shooter, that investigation will be thorough. O_o
It is not different not a lawyer since the ICE agent was working in his capacity enforcing federal laws. Did you even learn about the supremacy clause in your fake school?
Nothing you stated here is correct in any manner.
Could Arkansas have prosecuted the commanding officer of the 101st Airborne for trespassing into Little Rock Central High School?
Supremacy clause is something that an activist going to law school would not want to acknowledge.
Maybe if their team was using it to enforce gun control they might bring it back up.
They teach the supremacy clause at Starbuck’s Barista School?
No, they do not. Which, as an attorney, you should know.
no I think you overstepped shallow and pedantic to try a point here.
No one has immunity over a murder charge. Also immunity is granted if the facts regarding the actions are not in dispute. Here they are and that is a question for a jury. The racist ICE thug has many affirmative defenses available that it can bring up.
are you really Tony? Tony used to at least make a point.
Cite? Tony never made intelligent points. He also just spewed ignorant talking points.
I mean ... ten years ago ... there were times
Good thing it isnt murder china Tony.
Even the state has laws regarding self defense when a car is used as a weapon.
That is a question for the jury.
No. It is a question of law.
This is why civil rights investigations occurred for your preferred party when the KKK dominated the south.
You're obviously not a lawyer. Immunity doesn't depend on the crime charged (murder) but the status and activity of the person being charged. A police officer who after being fired upon kills someone in self defense is absolutely immune even if charged with murder by a state prosecutor.
If we are giving cops absolute immunity over murder we are far more fascist than even the radical left believes. That is saying that murder is part of their job.
You are showing an ignorance for how murder is defined. Perhaps you are confusing it with homicide.
Justifiable homicide is not murder. Self-defense is considered justifiable homicide.
He’s not confused. He’s commie scum that doesn’t care what the facts are. He wants the ice agent in prison, at least, because the ice agent is an enemy of him and the rest of the commie scum.
Immune is the wrong word. Innocent is a better word, if that is the facts of the case. But plenty of murder trials leave it for a jury to determine if it was in fact self defense. I don't see how you can claim the accused is immune during such trials.
“ No one has immunity over a murder charge. Also immunity is granted if the facts regarding the actions are not in dispute.”
The ICE agent likely does have immunity from state law murder charges. He was very publicly executing his assigned duties as a federal LEO. And those duties included enforcing federal law. A high priority here for duly elected President Trump, executing his Article II powers. Good had been actively interfering with and obstructing the federal operation underway, and had been for some time that day. That’s a federal crime. Then she struck him with her vehicle, while attempting to flee arrest. That’s even a bigger federal crime.
Both MN and Minneapolis are Sanctuary jurisdictions. How do either investigating the shooting do it without questioning the actions and motives of ICE and the Federal govt. Which brings us to Supremacy. They aren’t allowed to interfere with legal federal operations, and a state or local investigation would likely do just that.
Fucking god damnmed MAGA fascist scums who think that murder is a part of a cops job.
As pointed out above, homicide and murder are not the same thing. If it was murder, then the state could charge him I would think. In this case, I think it's reasonable to question whether the use of force was strictly necessary, but that's a separate question to whether it is justified. In this case, someone drove a vehicle towards an officer, which is a potentially deadly threat which he has to decide how to deal with in less than a second. Pretty clearly not murder, even if there may have been better ways to react.
As noted above, “murder” is a specific crime. It has specific actus rea and mens rea. If X kills Y, then you have a Homicide, but only maybe a Murder. Or maybe “Manslaughter”. Or maybe a completely justified killing.
If you bring a gun or knife to my front door, and try to break in, and I do the logical thing, in most states, it wouldn’t be Murder, even if your core body temp descended below room temp, because of the room you are in has its temp set to slow down deterioration. (I.e., you are stored in the morgue). Likely not Murder. But definitely a Homicide.
Well, even if the ICE officer didn’t shoot Good in self defense (he very likely did). His shooting her would not count as Murder, because it was done in the furtherance of his job as an ICE agent. Criminalizing his conduct that day, under state law, would interfere with his performing his federal job and duties, and is thus preempted by Supremecy. So, we get to the same place as self defense - Homicide, but not Murder (or Manslaughter).
Not murder, but also not shocked you don’t know what words mean.
Good news. Four senior attorneys in the DOJ Civil Rights Division quit after their bosses, starting at Trump, on down, through AAG Harmeet K. Dhillon, determined that there wasn’t going to be an investigation of the shooting. Nothing to investigate - Good struck the ICE officer with her vehicle. He was acting within the scope of his job, and shot her in self defense. Why these (now) former prosecutors thought that they, and not their bosses, got to make this decision, and not them, is beyond me.
Trump is the duly elected US President, operating under his Article II authority. Part of that authority and power is prosecutorial discretion. It’s Presidential power, conditionally delegated to DOJ employees. There are plenty of reasons that someone with that power could decide not to investigate or prosecute possible crimes. One is manpower. Another may be political. For example, the question of who brought cocaine into the private areas of the WH was never investigated, though the USSS is pretty sure that they know who it was. Why? My guess is that Hunter, the President’s surviving son, was somehow involved. And, yes, it’s interesting that he got a pardon for that, and for more.
""Why these (now) former prosecutors thought that they, and not their bosses, got to make this decision, and not them, is beyond me.""
I didn't get what I want so I'm taking my marbles and going home.
I can't wait till a non-MAGA president says that executing MAGAs is part of the job of federal law enforcement and then sends them out to do that job with full immunity. Same legal argument would apply.
When will Trump stop offering under-qualified & overweight MAGAs signing bonuses to cosplay federal law enforcement and then sending them out with automatic weapons to do that job with no supervision and full immunity.
Yeap. Still retarded and irrelevant contributions.
Same city, same MO, Same Keystone Cops: same class of victim- another ICE own goal:
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/immigration-agents-terrified-by-ice
1493 mph is 667.4307 metres per second.
What now bitch?
Actually, this Administration appears much more fit than the previous one. When was the last time that SecDef and Sec of HHS had a public pull-up competition? Or SecDef leads a daily PT workout, or keeps up on their daily run? Certainly not Biden’s SecDef who probably 70 lb, or more, overweight.
I'm sure if President Lefty would support the same thing if the lettered agency was going after gun owners and people were obstructing.
Niot just President Lefty- the same people whop accuse ICE of kidnapping people.
Still not what happened.
Poor poor doc.
I think Yale should revoke Vance's JD.
I think Princeton ROTC should draft Hegseth to play quarterback in the Yale Game.
What stunning logic from you and the retard Root.
He’d get it right back, after costing the school quite a bit.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/kristi-noem-allegedly-allows-unfit-underqualified-recruits-ice-due-hiring-surge-1760667
ICE Barbie Accused of Hiring 'Barely Read or Write' Agents to Meet Surge Quotas
Kristi Noem is criticized for her decision to tap under qualified ICE recruits
-snip-
'Yes, you heard that right. The agency with the power to detain, deport, and physically remove people from this country is hiring recruits who can't pass open-book tests. Why? Because Noem wants 10,000 new deportation officers hired by the end of this year. And the department is cutting corners everywhere to make it happen,'
Huh? Some anonymous source suggests that ICE may be hiring lower quality applicants, and you jump straight to that claim being established fact, and going from there. You need to qualify your statements about hiring with something like “if that report is accurate”, etc. before you jump to conclusions based on that assumption.
Besides the ICE agent primarily involved was not just hired. He was dragged by a vehicle in the line of duty, six months or so ago.
Also notable is that ICE has no shortage of quality applicants, which is a big change from the Biden Administration. They report an excess, and not a shortage, of applicants.