Department of Homeland Security
DHS Says REAL ID, Which DHS Certifies, Is Too Unreliable To Confirm U.S. Citizenship
It's the punch line to a bad joke that started 20 years ago when Congress passed the REAL ID Act.
Only the government could spend 20 years creating a national ID that no one wanted and that apparently doesn't even work as a national ID.
But that's what the federal government has accomplished with the REAL ID, which the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) now considers unreliable, even though getting one requires providing proof of citizenship or lawful status in the country.
In a December 11 court filing, Philip Lavoie, the acting assistant special agent in charge of DHS' Mobile, Alabama, office, stated that, "REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship."
Lavoie's declaration was in response to a federal civil rights lawsuit filed in October by the Institute for Justice, a public-interest law firm, on behalf of Leo Garcia Venegas, an Alabama construction worker. Venegas was detained twice in May and June during immigration raids on private construction sites, despite being a U.S. citizen. In both instances, Venegas' lawsuit says, masked federal immigration officers entered the private sites without a warrant and began detaining workers based solely on their apparent ethnicity.
And in both instances officers allegedly retrieved Venegas' Alabama-issued REAL ID from his pocket but claimed it could be fake. Venegas was kept handcuffed and detained for an hour the first time and "between 20 and 30 minutes" the second time before officers ran his information and released him.
Lavoie's declaration says that the agents "needed to further verify his U.S. citizenship because each state has its own REAL ID compliance laws, which may provide for the issuance of a REAL ID to an alien and therefore based on HSI Special Agent training and experience, REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship."
It's the punch line to a bad joke with a 20-year windup. When Congress passed the REAL ID Act in 2005. It was sold as a post-9/11 security measure to create uniform standards for state IDs, including clearly listing citizenship or lawful immigration status. State IDs that conformed to the requirements would be marked with a star. Contrary to the cheeky first sentence of this story, DHS insists that REAL ID is not a national ID system, and that it doesn't involve a centralized national database. (Civil liberties groups say it amounts to a de facto national ID system anyway.)
The rub was that REAL IDs would be required for entry to federal property, including, most significantly for the average American, airport security checkpoints. But the law was widely unpopular. There was such low compliance from states that enforcement was delayed seven times over the years, until finally beginning this May.
The project should have been scrapped years ago. America somehow survived two decades of terrorism-free air travel without REAL IDs. As Reason's Scott Shackford wrote in 2021, "The government is demanding that Americans give up more of their privacy to the feds, subject themselves to additional inane bureaucracy, and carry around proof that we're citizens to be able to fly, even though none of that makes us more secure."
And now we discover that DHS doesn't even consider the thing proof of citizenship.
In a court filing in response to DHS, the Institute for Justice noted how incredible this position is. "REAL IDs require proof of citizenship or lawful status," the Institute for Justice wrote. "DHS is the very agency responsible for certifying that REAL IDs, including Alabama's STAR IDs, satisfy this requirement."
The law firm argues that DHS' policy of allowing officers to disregard proof of lawful presence likely violates the Fourth Amendment and DHS' own regulations.
When asked to comment on Lavoie's declaration, a DHS spokesperson said in a statement to Reason: "The INA requires aliens and non-citizens in the US to carry immigration documents. Real IDs are not immigration documents—they make identification harder to forge, thwarting criminals and terrorists."
But of course, Venegas is a U.S. citizen, so he is not required to carry non-existent immigration documents.
DHS' statement to Reason when Venegas' lawsuit was first filed insisted that, "What makes someone a target for immigration enforcement is if they are illegally in the U.S.—NOT their skin color, race, or ethnicity."
The agency never responded to a follow-up question asking why, then, Venegas was targeted.
This is the cynical two-step that the Supreme Court allowed this September when it overturned a ruling by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which found that the Trump administration was likely violating the Fourth Amendment rights of citizens by seizing them based solely on factors such as "apparent race or ethnicity."
Justice Brett Kavanaugh released a concurring opinion in which he waved away concerns that allowing such profiling would lead to citizens and legal residents being unduly harassed.
"As for stops of those individuals who are legally in the country, the questioning in those circumstances is typically brief," Kavanaugh wrote, "and those individuals may promptly go free after making clear to the immigration officers that they are U. S. citizens or otherwise legally in the United States."
But what the Lavoie declaration makes clear—and what should be remembered every time a new national security boondoggle like the REAL ID is proposed—is that when our Fourth Amendment rights are eroded, there is no evidence or piece of plastic that will suffice to overcome an officer's "reasonable suspicion" once the government decides you're a target.
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The agency never responded to a follow-up question asking why, then, Venegas was targeted.
When, as part of a rampantly misogynist patriarchy, are you going to stop targeting your wife for beatdowns, C.J.?
Kavanaugh wrote
Kavanaugh lied
Poor shrike.
Vote for fascists, get fascism.
Every time.
TDS sheep comment.
Only the mentally-ill still spew about "TDS."
Caesar Disgustus is destroying the country and you're still on about "liberals."
then why do you low IQ brainwashed cultists keep voting for Democrats?
.
And in both instances officers allegedly retrieved Venegas' Alabama-issued REAL ID from his pocket but claimed it could be fake.
Lavoie's declaration says that the agents "needed to further verify his U.S. citizenship because each state has its own REAL ID compliance laws, which may provide for the issuance of a REAL ID to an alien and therefore based on HSI Special Agent training and experience, REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship."
Duh... a commercial driver's license is no guarantee that you've ever been trained to drive a commercial vehicle, can speak the language or even read road signs.
Exactly. That's the point. RealID is bullshit.
We have seen RealID cards with the name of "No Name Given"
Yes but those aren't compliant and so can't be used for Federal ID purposes. Further, it seems that the instance of the No Name Given on a CDL was due to the holder having only a one-word name. If your sole name was Abdurahman, for example, what should be entered on a licence that states first and last name?
You.
Do.
Not.
Lawfully.
Receive.
CDL.
Without.
A.
Name.
CA abuse of CDL is a big reason WHY RealID is not sufficient.
Fuckwit - he has a name. Just not two names.
Provide the name of the people who were "no name given".
It did not say "One name given". It said none.
Can we agree that if a person HAS a name ("Abdurahman", for example), rather than saying "No Name Given" their name should go in either the first or last name field, the other being blank or be filled with the tag "only", so that the license reads either:
Abdurahman "Only"
Or
"Only", Abdurahman
Put another way, it would read Sting "only" or "only" Madonna"
That isn't really so hard - "no name given" incorrect and useless.
And RealID being bullshit is no justification for continuing handouts for duly-documented Somali daycare.
Again. Every time a motorist is pulled over they are detained by the police and after producing the required documents they are required to wait while cops "run" their drivers license and plates. This guy suffered through a total of an hour and a half of detention in two separate encounters. I drove a semi truck for 15 years and I was "detained" many times on the roadside and at scales equaling a fuck of a lot more time than an hour and a half. Kavanaugh was correct that these detentions are typically brief as they were in this case. But because ICE (!!!!!) it's a catastrophic constitutional violation.
Gaear: so you're saying that because something is TYPICAL it must be OKAY?! Also implying that you approve of requiring everyone - or at least drivers - to keep identification on their persons at all times in case an official wants to "detain" them? And it's okay for government to require us to get permission to drive? Wow, I'm beginning to suspect that you're not actually any kind of libertarian at all ...
Spoken like someone who lives in a basement.
De minimus detainment is a part of living in a society. If lacking a license you can use the same information, name/DoB to run the data.
Unless you want cops going directly to arrest every time, minimal detainment is the process.
Even your final question is pure ignorance. You can drive whenever or wherever you want without a license, just not on public roads, as agreed to by society. I get you think you should have zero responsibility in life, but that's not fucking reality.
The choices you fucking advocate for force costs onto those who dont fucking agree to your choices. Choose to drive and get in an accident with another person, you've now imposed costs on someone else.
Everything you write is child like ignorance.
"I get you think you should have zero responsibility in life"
Jesse, you don't get shit and never have. What I think is that there should be NO "public roads" in the first place. Every time you declare something to be public you expand the power and scope of government to interfere in that space. Government has gone from a specific, limited function to everyone, everwhere, all at once in less than two hundred fifty years. If you don't like the "costs" liberty imposes on you, tough shit!
I've been stuck on the idea of private roads only and maybe you can help. I would think in a free market, you'd control gouging with competition. The investment costs, like for Cable TV, are justified by endorsed monopolies. Basically, public roads with a private ownership veneer. They get regulated by the government just as if it were public.
What does one do about geographic areas that are not profitable to build competing roads? Are regulated monopolies the only way to go and is such regulation consistent with libertarianism?
Do excessive costs and prices mean some areas won't have roads at all other than pitted dirt and mud? Maybe this is appropriate. Tree huggers lament exurb construction. Maybe private roads would have stopped such ineffective deployment of capital?
Is that a potential premise? Otherwise, what solutions are available where the profit for free market is dubious?
This strikes me as the number one problem of pure libertarianism and I haven't run across many people who even try to address it.
Actually I didn't say anything like that. I'm very much in favor of returning to a world in which we weren't forced to carry identity cards state or federal. Simply pointing out that being detained by cops is hardly unique to immigration enforcement and is in fact is universal. As far as driving is concerned it has always been my belief that it is a natural right that should only involve the state in the event of injury or property damage liability. But that's not the word I find myself in. If the plaintiff in this case is successful and ultimately the Supreme Court decides that immigration enforcement cannot verify an individual's identity it wouldn't lead to libertopia. It would only apply to a tiny fraction of people who are subject to detention every day.
I'm very much in favor of returning to a world in which we weren't forced to carry identity cards state or federal.
It shouldn't go overlooked that in such times, it was much more common to not just be judged... and executed... but even summarily disposed of without any documentation at all.
There are places today where you are broadly free to walk around without any documentation at all. They tend to be the places that Reason has to gloss over when they talk about diversity, equality, and freedom in the face of oppressive and theocratic tyranny. The ability to relatively freely kill people who don't believe they way you do circumvents much of the need for bona fides. You could say that they judge bona fides by the weight of lead in grains rather than by copies of signatures.
"The ability to relatively freely kill people who don't believe they way you do"
That's not only silly, it's non-responsive and irrelevent. Killing people who don't believe the way you do has never been legal in the United States. Just because you can get away with it for a while in some places at some times says nothing about the state of the law or the advisability of having laws against murder. And the lawless state you seem to be describing is not a libertarian one, either theoretically or at any time or place in the real world. Certainly theocratic societies and gang controlled regions are not even remotely libertarian, nor does requiring ID pertain. There may be some anarchists who call themselves libertarians, but their beliefs have nothing to do with real rule of law and real individual rights.
The Constitution (the Bill of Rights) is THE Law of the Land, yet the regime violates such Law each and every day.
It will continue until those who run the regime are afraid of the People.
Let us remember that George Washington and the Founders were "traitors," "seditionists," "unlawful combatants," "insurgents," and "terrorists."
Ok Fed
"Also implying that you approve of requiring everyone - or at least drivers - to keep identification on their persons at all times in case an official wants to "detain" them?"
There is no right to drive. The rules have always been that you need to have your license on you when driving
Slight disagreement. As someone who was driving before they were old enough to obtain a license, the rules have always been that you need to have your license on you when you drive... on public property (or other peoples' property without express permission). Even at that, as evidenced by the number of arrests *after* illegally-licensed drivers have killed someone, the police generally need a (fairly narrow and rigorously defined) reason(able suspicion) to stop you.
This is not only a lie, it's an obvious one. ALL rights are retained by the people, whether enumerated or natural. The Constitution of the United States of America specifically says so, backed up by volumes of commentary from the time of the founding. The fact that this principle, clearly stated and documented, has been ignored and watered down by generations of people ever since does not mean that it no longer exists or that some number of exceptions, having magically appeared over time, has aquired legitimacy. The only limitation on your retained right to drive is the equal right of others to do the same. You may not kill someone in the course of your driving, but not because of some identification requirement or permission from the government! Official identification serves no purpose other than the convenience of a surveillance state. If you initiate force against someone, having ID doesn't assist them in charging you with the crime. Go tell it to someone who isn't able to read or think logically.
Kinda comical at this point in the conversation but I mostly agree, to the extent that I can comprehend your comment. Government in a classical liberal world exists only to protect the liberty of the governed. Government has no business handing out privileges. Killing someone by negligence while driving is absolutely criminal. Damaging property while driving is absolutely a civil liability. Just driving a vehicle is a natural right in my view. I get that driving on a public road convinces most people that we can be forced to compromise a natural right to simply use a machine for our personal benefit. But it obviously comes with the attendant surveillance and enforcement. That's the world I live in and I don't see that changing in my lifetime.
"This is not only a lie, it's an obvious one. ALL rights are retained by the people, whether enumerated or natural."
You have no right to drive on a public road. You can do the usual litany of asinine "sovereign citizen" nonsense, but reality is what it is. While your license gets suspended and you're barred from driving, feel free to say "You're oppressing my rights!!"
Heck, go to court and learn the reality.
All things LEGAL are not RIGHTS.
OF COURSE there is a right to drive. It's just that the regime refuses to accept the plain meaning of the Ninth Amendment.
No, there is not. Never once has been. You have no more right to drive than you have a right to fly.
Were you handcuffed during those stops?
No, not handcuffed - sitting, compliant, in a parked car with the engine off - not a flight risk.
At the work scene, where the worker had to be chased down to be interviewed, handcuffs can be a reasonable response. If ICE had to chase you to see your RealID, you can expect different treatment than a compliant person.
Trump is the Constitution and he says ICE is constitutional so it is. The 4th Amendment says you have to show papers on request and cops can do anything they want with you and if you complain, you get your ass kicked. I say this as a True Libertarian.
Walz +5
Most of what government does today is unconstitutional, and, if real men still controlled the country (like the Founding Fathers), deadly force would be employed to overthrow the regime.
"It's the punch line to a bad joke that started 20 years ago when Congress passed the REAL ID Act"
The proper response to very bad jokes would usually be, "Don't quit your day job ..." but in this case we should probably insist that Congress quit their day jobs ... permanently ... PLEASE!
It is false that you need ID to fly. That is not in federal regulations and when pushed in court TSA admits ID is not needed.
Yeah, and I have a right to keep and bear arms (in common use*), and the income tax is unconstitutional, yet here we are.
*even that bar is disputed as a requirement, but I'll not litigate that here.
There is literally an amendment allowing an income tax.
“ the income tax is unconstitutional”
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/16th-amendment
“ The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”
It doesn’t get more Constitutional than that.
Please go get on a plane without ID. Please film it.
Yeah, sounds great - you may want to head to the airport a couple days before your flight to make sure TSA is aware of your legal position.
PS, the airline won't give you a boarding pass without ID, so good luck on that whole "you don't need ID to fly" thing...
Boarding passes are issues digitally, no ID needed.
Walz +9
Please SHOW us how to board a plane without a "compliant" ID.
Be the pilot?
DHS would be a laughable joke if weren't such a waste of taxpayer money.
This is part of their anti-immigrant plan. If they declare Real IDs not reliable, then they can claim it is ok to arrest people who have Real IDs showing they are citizens.
Live in fear Molly, live in fear.
That was the point, wasn't it... to leave everyone living in fear of government almighty?
Paranoia is not a problem. Don't let your doctors tell you otherwise. Those voices in your head are totally right.
Not a "bad" joke (i.e. not funny), but a sick joke (the sort that makes your stomach turn because it's so cruel or disgusting).
By this logic, no form of ID can ever be accepted at face value, since every form of ID (birth certificate, passport, drivers license, etc.) can be forged.
So any brown-skinned citizen must accept any detention by law enforcement at any time for no reason and cannot complain that their certified documents proving they are a citizen are rejected because there is a theoretical chance that it might be forged and they have brown skin?
No, that doesn’t seem problematic in a free society at all.
from where do you low iQ brainwashed far left Democrat cultists get your programming?
wow,....
From being stopped by Law Enforcement and listening to their mental gymnastics on the reasons why it doesn't violate your rights when it clearly does.
The guy was held for an hour in a police car, only because he fit the profile, despite presenting Real ID. To get a Real ID you have to present proof of citizenship.
Yes, he has the right to sue because there's no way the white and black guys would have gotten the same treatment after presenting a Real ID. That's exactly the definition of racial profiling.
Why do I get the feeling this article has absolutely nothing to do with Real ID?
Because You PervFectly LOVE to keep the spotlight focused on PUNISHING-PUNISHING-PUNISHING the illegal sub-humans? Real ID is a real distraction from the real action? Only the Real Action will give PervFected You some Real Satisfaction!
Winner-winner, chicken dinner; do I win shit, did I spin shit correctly?
What? Did you think breaking into other people's home-nation was suppose to be rewarded? Of course you did. Because you're part of the [WE] Identify-as *special* gangsters who insist they're above the law.
I'm sorry, but either you poorly misrepresented the officers' statements, or your point is completely wrong. "It might be fake" says nothing whatsoever about the RealID system itself.