Katie Engelhart on Medically Assisted Dying in the U.S. vs. Canada
"When you open up the option of assisted dying to people who are not dying, things get complicated," says the author of The Inevitable: Dispatches on the Right to Die.
The Canadian Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Katie Engelhart wrote The Inevitable: Dispatches on the Right to Die. In this conversation with Reason's Kevin Alexander, Engelhart discusses why people choose assisted death, compares U.S. and Canadian health care systems and assisted-dying laws, and addresses debates about disability rights and media coverage of medically assisted dying.
Q: Why did you choose to structure your book around these different stories?
A: I wanted to bring readers on this journey of increasing discomfort. I opened the book with a legal, medical assisted death that I watched in California of an 89-year-old man. His doctor predicted that he had two or three weeks left. This man decided he wanted to die by medically assisted death. His three adult children, who lived in three different states, had flown in for it. They were all literally embracing him at the time of his death. The alternative would have been for him to wait the two or three weeks. His kids may or may not have been there. He would probably have felt increasing pain. Drugs would have helped that, but also had a side effect of sedation. He would've stopped eating and drinking. His death certificate would have said prostate cancer, but he probably would have died of kidney failure. That felt like a noncontroversial case.
But then there were other stories. We meet people who are physically sick but aren't imminently dying. We meet [people] with cognitive disorders but otherwise relatively healthy bodies. And we're confronted with the question of whether there should be eligibility criteria at all.
Q: What are the major differences between medical aid in dying [MAID] laws in the U.S. vs. Canada?
A: Oregon passed its death with dignity law in the '90s. According to the Oregon criteria, a person who was eligible had to be medically competent to make the choice, but also two doctors in Oregon had to agree that a patient, if left alone, would die within six months. In every place where assisted dying is legal in the United States, you've got that six-month criterion.
In Canada, there was a requirement that a person's death had to be imminent. Over the years, the law has expanded. A court decided it was unconstitutional to have even that vague requirement that someone's natural death be imminent, because it discriminated against people with disabilities who were potentially suffering, who wanted to end their lives, but who weren't dying in any imminent sense. Now, patients with potentially decades of life ahead of them can qualify.
Q: What do you say to the argument that the existence of these laws devalues the lives of disabled people?
A: A person has to ask for medical aid in dying. That person has to go through a laborious process of filling out paperwork, being interviewed by numerous doctors. That process itself is meant to prevent a person from slipping into this because she feels like her life is devalued.
Now, medical aid in dying exists within the American health care system, and that makes it especially complicated. In other countries where assisted dying is legal, there is public health care. So for instance, in Canada if someone chooses a medically assisted death, we know that person has been eligible for free health care. In the United States, there is always the possibility that someone will choose assisted dying, in part, because they don't have access to good-quality medical care.
Q: How much truth is there to the recent scare stories out of Canada?
A: You've got a lot of headlines like "This Person Is Thinking About Applying for MAID Because He's Poor," and that person is many degrees away from being qualified. Also, poor people are deserving of health care choices, too. So I think there's been quite a lot of sensationalizing. On the other hand, when you open up the option of assisted dying to people who are not dying, things get complicated.
Serious medical decisions are always motivated by a host of factors. It's inevitable that MAID decisions will be messy in places like Canada. In the U.S., it's a lot more straightforward because a person has to be close to their natural death.
This interview has been condensed and edited for style and clarity.
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If anyone is "assisting" you, you are not dying, you are being killed.
A truism that doesn't address the issues.
No, there are forms of assistance that are not killing you. For instance, the assistant provides drugs in lethal dose that would not be available to you otherwise, but that you still have to take yourself. Or the assistant provides a device to do similarly.
"In the United States, there is always the possibility that someone will choose assisted dying, in part, because they don't have access to good-quality medical care."
Compared to Canada?
We have great access to immediate care, you just may have to pay for it later. Meanwhile in Canada, you can get shot in the face in a drive-by shooting and still be waiting for treatment over a week later:
https://x.com/GurpreetSSahota/status/1990147947435336082?s=20
Reason simping for communized healthcare……….
Yeah and every once in a while cows are mutilated too.
Acting as though instances like this are the norm, are part of the design and occur often is disingenuous.
The USA has a health INSURANCE problem, it is unfuckingaffordable due to greed of corporations profiting from human health rather than sticking to their oaths and earning a living doing so. The American people need to come to terms with the fact that everyone is living in bodies that require care and this should not be a profitable business.
The US health care is no better than the health care in Canada. It's just more convenient in the US.
I'm not forced to wait for weeks or months to get treatment in the US.
I personally know people who have waited for YEARS in Europe under their nationalized medical programs to get treatment, and eventually just decided to come to the US and pay out of pocket instead.
Yeah, that's verbal diarrhea at best, and, more likely, shit stupid, mask-dropped propaganda.
I could agree with "They don't have similar free/subsidized access to palliative care." or "They don't have the same medical care we have in Canada." But "they don't have access to good-quality medical care" is "I wear velcro so I don't have to tie my shoelaces." levels of stupid.
Is this like ice hockey where the suicide is 1 point but an assisted suicide is also 1 point?p
"When you open up the option of assisted dying to people who are not dying, things get complicated,"
Not really. Murder isn't all that complicated.
Begging the question.
The opposite.
Did someone kill them? No/Yes.
They died of their own accord and/or natural causes? Yes/No.
No questions begged.
Did someone kill them? Not exactly.
They died of their own accord and/or natural causes? Sorta.
Are we sure they're even dead?
Again, "It's complicated." is a valid answer, but if you have to deflect to the point of projection, it's a pretty good sign that either you know where you are when it comes to responsibility and culpability or you don't.
Shitty way to misinform folks by the writer.
"have a serious and incurable illness, disease or disability (excluding a mental illness until March 17, 2027)
be in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability"
Who are you to decide for someone suffering, restricted to a wheel chair or bed, have no functionality in their life, who are you living a normal life to tell them how they must keep suffering?
How libertarian of you.
"Free medical insurance" is NOT free it costs the government. But rather than address that and the incentive to push people with costly conditions to MAID and to rubber stamp the approval this just ignores that reporting or at best dismisses it as "sensational".
Yeah, this guy seems to have a pretty serious bias towards nationalized medical care. Our system is admittedly balls. But so is everyone else's. There is an interesting discussion to be had about the merits and disadvantages of each. This article wasn't it.
It costs the tax payers you mean. Nothing is free including government.
No one is pushing anyone to anything. How sad you would push a lie. An anti libertarian one at that.
Which is exactly what us heretics in the comments predicted years ago when libertarianism was all in on this.
Its insane - the decisions are not 'messy' in Canada. They're pretty straightforward there. There is no 'how much life are we actually taking here' - which is a question that is asked in the US. Its 'is your cost to 'society' higher than your utility?' If yes, then encourage suicide and remove obstacles to to.
They're messy in the US because there are a raft of laws that impose significant liability on anyone participating in a suicide.
Fuck you. You disgustingly misrepresent the truth. Why?
"have a serious and incurable illness, disease or disability (excluding a mental illness until March 17, 2027)
be in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability"
Ill and elderly do not get free fucking housing asshole. They pay for it.
We'll all hear you change your mind when you are stuck paralyzed and can't wipe your own ass, your family is paying for your care and you decide you have no quality of life and are a burden on your family and are told, you will live in pain and suffer for a couple more years with no potential to getter better, ever.
They do not get complicated. What? Just looking at the Canadian and European examples show how uncomplicated things became for them - the government wants you to die and the government will now move heaven and earth in order for that to happen. The government will 'encourage' (read: hound) you to die. All obstacles to you dyeing will be removed.
Its only complicated in countries that do not consider people to be just 'clumps of cells'. Its complicated in countries like the US because we don't consider you a cell in a collective, valuable only while you are useful to those who control the collective, and to be discarded when your utility falls below your cost.
You are a paranoid nut case. The gov's in Canada and the EU are coming to kill you all, oh no look out, good thing were safe in America.
No facts, no truth, you became a lying sack of shit in your post, are you happy to join sarc?
His three adult children, who lived in three different states, had flown in for it. They were all literally embracing him at the time of his death. The alternative would have been for him to wait the two or three weeks. His kids may or may not have been there.
What?!
"Listen up pops, I've got a schedule to keep. Now get to dying or else I'm going back home. Stop making your death inconvenient for me!"
He would probably have felt increasing pain.
We have got to stop using that as an excuse for everything.
because it discriminated against people with disabilities who were potentially suffering, who wanted to end their lives
Y'know, in any normal society, we put that person on suicide watch and do our best to counsel him away from such self-destructive impulses and thoughts.
What Canada does is a perversion of caring. A twisted form of "compassion" that treats evil as good, and good as evil.
eligible for free health care.
This is a twisted perversion too. Just because you're eligible for something doesn't mean you'll actually have any access to it. But the twist there allows for a handwave that rationalizes the killing.
We all know the reality of "free health care" is that it (like anything else provided by the State) isn't free - the government pays for it. But here's the dirty little secret: to manage costs, what they do is limit capacity.
Whereas in America, one might simply build more hospitals, add more diagnostic machines, hire more staff - in Canada (and the UK) they do the opposite. They intentionally DON'T increase capacity. They bottleneck it to keep costs predictable and under control.
This creates a glut of demand with very little supply. But hey, since you theoretically could get it on paper - or you could just save yourself (and ourselves) the hassle... (pay no attention to the fact that this helps reduce demand).
Also, poor people are deserving of health care choices, too.
"Deserving." *eyeroll*
That's like demanding filet mignon and fois gras at the soup kitchen.
Beggars can't be choosers. Nobody should be entitled to any service they can't or won't pay for. Period.
SOME women would LOVE to be declared to be SNOT womb-slaves, and are willing to pay for their abortions, which can save the life of the mother! Butt Buttinskies and Nosenheimers and Karens like AT the AuthorShitarian TotalShitarian LOVE to BUTT IN and get in the way!!!
(Twat are YOU paying into the AuthorShitarian and TotalShitarian ways of Government Almighty, and ALL the MANY damages that YOU and Your Fellow Perverted, PervFected agitators inflict upon the rest of us?)
which can save the life of the mother!
It's more likely to kill them these days, but whatever.
The mothers that don’t abort the unborn baby all die?
Eventually, yes!!! Life shitself is a LETHAL cunt-dition!!!
(I would add that life should therefor be outlawed, butt sarcasm seems to be beyond EVIL people, and I am reluctant to give Ye Pervfectly EVIL people yet MORE evil ideas!!! So I did SNOT say that life should be outlawed!)
So you're saying life should be outlawed?
So I did SNOT say that life should be outlawed!
(Only Assholes and Buttinskies and Nosenheimers and Karens like AT the AuthorShitarian TotalShitarian BLEEEEEVE shit like that! Except when a Sacred Fartilized Egg Smell BELONGING TO SOMEONE ELSE is involved!!! Even if shit is FROZEN (outside of any body) and KNOWN TO BE GENETICALLY DEFECTIVE!!! Always PUNISH the disobedient womb-slaves!!! AND send us VIDEO of the punishment process, SNOT for us to enjoy, butt for our FIENDS to enjoy!!!)
So you're saying life should be killed.
Make up your mind.
Life in pond water should be killed if a human needs to drink it, fascist asshole!!!
Leftist media bias by Vox is a fib sometimes! Hunter Biden art…
https://www.vox.com/2021/8/3/22601671/hunter-biden-art-sales-walter-shaub “Why Obama’s former ethics czar is highly critical of Hunter Biden’s lucrative art sales … There have been many bad-faith “scandals” linked to the president’s son. Walter Shaub thinks this one should be taken seriously.
I wonder if the Trumpaloos will now show up to say that Vox is liberally biased, and can't be trusted? This here “Vox” article MUST mean that Hunter Biden is a GREAT artist, and there are NO opportunities for corruption, here!
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/vox-news-media-bias
“VOX” rated as far-left as is allowed… The needle is pegged!
PROOF, then, that Hunter Biden art is of NO concern to stalwart conservatives and Trumpaloos! (Since Vox always lies, of course).
Hey AT... Are Ye now PervFectly rushing out to buy Yer PervFected Self some Hunter Biden art? Ye SHOULD ya know, since Vox says that You shouldn't!
https://reason.com/2024/10/25/trump-floats-tax-break-for-carmakers-hurt-by-his-own-trade-deal/?comments=true#comment-10775207
So, AT, are Ye PervFectly Living By Your Sacred Principles, or twat? Are Ye rushing out RIGHT NOW to buy Hunter Biden art, like You logically SHOULD?
I think I have, AT long last, fingered You and Yours out... You Deeply Care about EVERYONE!!! SOOO Deeply, SOOO Cumpassionately, SOOO benevolently, SOOO Lovingly, even, that Ye are Pervfectly willing to SEVERELY PUNISH all who disagree with YE, in even the tiniest way!!! Especially those who steal and boil a few cups of pond water, to save their lives!!!
"Hitler said 2+2=4."
"Yes, I agree, 2+2=4."
"YOU AGREE WITH HITLER!!!!!!"
Derp.
For those who give a shit, be shit know, AT is an UDDER ASSHOLE who is FAR more worried about the “property rights” of a pond-owner, if I should (as a thirsting-to-death one) fetch a few cups of water to boil and drink, thereby killing a few amoebas and water-bears etc. … Compared to INFIDELS WHO KILL FRESHLY FARTILIZED SACRED EGG SMELLS!!! Fuck off and die, fascist asshole!!!
https://reason.com/2024/03/07/alabama-governor-signs-bill-protecting-ivf-treatments/?comments=true#comment-10480184
You arrogant nonsensical twit! I know arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, but who knows, more sensible people just MIGHT take a clue from the below:
Case A: Theoretical (COULDA-WOULDA-SHOULDA) harm to some fartilized HUMAN egg smells, caused by NOT implanting the tested-and-genetically defective said “Sacred” fartilized HUMAN egg smells, which are known to, at BEST case, if “successfully” brought to term, would suffer and die in hours or days at the most. There ARE these cases, you know! AND THE KICKER IS, THE FUCKING EGG SMELL IS FROZEN, OUTSIDE THE HUMAN BODY, AND SHOWS ZERO SIGNS OF LIFE, ABILITY TO FEEL PAIN, OR SENTIENCE!!!!
Case B: A thirsty human wants to drink pond water, ’cause he has no other water source. So, not liking diseases either, he BOILS the water first, KILLING innocent, motile, swimming, pain-feeling paramecia and water bears!!!
Now WHO has done more harm, and who, if anyone, should be PUNISHED?
AND WHO IS AN ARROGANT PUNISHMENT-LUSTING ASSHOLE MICRO-MANAGING, POWER-PIG AUTHORITARIAN?!?!?
For those who give a shit, be shit know, AT is an UDDER ASSHOLE who is FAR more worried about the “property rights” of a pond-owner, if I should (as a thirsting-to-death one) fetch a few cups of water to boil and drink, thereby killing a few amoebas and water-bears etc.
Are those amoebas and "water-bears" humans?
Also, language.
So killing a person is ok because they will eventually die?
Libertardians for the death penalty?
So killing a person is ok if shit is ass killing ("capitally punishing") a person for stealing a cup of water from YOUR pond, or a pubic pond, if said person STOLE a cup of water, ass he or she was DYING of thirst!!! Just ask YOUR fellow CuntSoreVaTurd and RePoopLicKKKunt, AT the AuthorShitarian TotalShitarian, ass shown right above here!!! You PervFected Perverts just LOVE to PUNISH!!!
(Just READ Shit's PervFected Cumments to the linked article!!!)
So killing a person that did nothing wrong is ok because they will eventually die? But instead of addressing that, you craft a strawman in a desperate attempt to chaff & redirect?
Y'know buddy, I'm really torn at times when it comes to squirrels. Sometimes he really has it coming, but other times it feels like bullying the kids on the short bus.
I'm kinda feeling like this is the latter. Maybe he's just not bringing his A-game today.
Lie HARDER, Asshole LIAR and Servant, Serpent, and Slurp-Pants of the Evil One! You accuse me of the EXACT OPPOSITE of twat I said! Repeat below... Learn to READ and to be HONEST!!!
So I did SNOT say that life should be outlawed!
(Only Assholes and Buttinskies and Nosenheimers and Karens like AT the AuthorShitarian TotalShitarian BLEEEEEVE shit like that! Except when a Sacred Fartilized Egg Smell BELONGING TO SOMEONE ELSE is involved!!! Even if shit is FROZEN (outside of any body) and KNOWN TO BE GENETICALLY DEFECTIVE!!! Always PUNISH the disobedient womb-slaves!!! AND send us VIDEO of the punishment process, SNOT for us to enjoy, butt for our FIENDS to enjoy!!!)
So you're saying you want to outlaw life. Got it.
If you value the idea of a person being with loved one at the time of their death then MAID is a very good thing. Natural death isn't predictable and I know people who have missed a loved one death often feely bad. Often they thought they had time but death snuck up and took the person before they could return. If you know the time is short and all you will be doing is waiting to die why not make the choice. Have those you love there when you exit this life.
If only this was the sole consideration in a MAID killing. Unfortunately, that's not even close to the only consideration.
And you know this how and why?
The illusion of control.
Perhaps do some research and learn some facts before spewing your uninformed opinions?
"A person has to ask for medical aid in dying. That person has to go through a laborious process of filling out paperwork, being interviewed by numerous doctors. That process itself is meant to prevent a person from slipping into this because she feels like her life is devalued."
But...
". A court decided it was unconstitutional to have even that vague requirement that someone's natural death be imminent, because it discriminated against people with disabilities who were potentially suffering, who wanted to end their lives, but who weren't dying in any imminent sense."
So all the protections in the law are being whittled away by activist judges. Eligibility for MAID is being expanded to categories who have impaired capacity to consent like minors and the mentally disabled. Furthermore, the bureaucracy administrating the "free" health care has great incentive to suggest removing yourself from being a burden to the state.
Social liberalism continues to prove itself to be a death cult.
That was just the case that was brought. Do you think the same judges would not have ruled it unconstitutional to discriminate against people seeking restorative or palliative medical care?
Social liberalism continues to prove itself to be a death cult.
Evil, immoral death cult as evidenced by the "We have strict safeguards in place (which we circumvent and are in the process of ridding ourselves of)."
The person being interviewed is woefully uninformed on MAiD in Canada. Professional medical associations have directed doctors to bring up MAiD as an option without waiting for the patient to ask about it.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-maid-medical-aid-in-dying-consent-doctors
There have been a number of cases where veterans seeking medical assistance have been advised to choose MAiD. This is one example, in another case a veteran who asked for funding to build a ramp in her house was advised to consider MAiD.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/another-combat-vet-says-offered-100008398.html
At least the latest Liberal backed expansion, to include people with mental disabilities and children, is on hold due to serious outrage.
thank you for pointing this out: it was the first thing i thought of. sure, there might be medical bills in the US that are emotionally crushing, but in Canada you have overworked medical professionals who don't want to be bothered with dealing with certain people so they suggest MAID. it's wild.
Wait times and lack of access to care drive MAID suggestions: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(24)00137-6/fulltext
That this person doesn't know that, or doesn't bring it up, probably says a lot about how she views the nature of Canada's single payer system.