Some Democrats Urge the Military To 'Refuse Illegal Orders.' What if the IRS, ATF, and EPA Did the Same?
Much of what the federal government does on a daily basis flouts constitutional protections and offends human decency.
I favor government employees defying orders and sabotaging the instruments of the state as much as the next libertarian (well, maybe a little more). But I suspect the Democratic lawmakers urging members of the military and the intelligence community to "refuse illegal orders" haven't entirely thought through their positions. While their advice is commendable so far as it goes, as officials of a political party known for its expansive view of the role of government their words are likely to come back and bite them on their collective asses. It's hard to imagine them being so enthusiastic about a reboot of this message directed at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and IRS agents under a Democratic administration.
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Lawmakers Say: Refuse Illegal Orders
In a video message released this week, Democratic Sens. Elissa Slotkin of Michigan and Mark Kelly of Arizona, and Reps. Chris Deluzio of Pennsylvania, Maggie Goodlander of New Hampshire, Chrissy Houlahan of Pennsylvania, and Jason Crow of Colorado, introduce themselves with emphasis on their past roles in the military and intelligence agencies.
"We want to speak directly to members of the military and the intelligence community," they say. "We know you are under enormous stress and pressure right now. Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk. This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. Like us, you all swore an oath to protect and defend this Constitution. And right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home."
That's a nice lead-in. Then we get to the heart of the message: "Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution."
Stirring stuff. And accurate. Referencing a Vietnam War-era atrocity, retired General Philip M. Breedlove, former Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, told NewsNation regarding the video, "Since My Lai, the way we have interpreted this is, as a combatant, as a military officer, you are not obligated, not obligated, to carry out an illegal or an immoral order. You simply refuse the order."
Much of What the Government Does is Illegal or Immoral
But Breedlove added that he hasn't seen any recent illegal orders that would justify the video. That said, whether orders are illegal or immoral is often a matter of interpretation. Chelsea Manning's case provides an instructive example: Manning spent years in prison, in part for releasing video of U.S. troops firing on Iraqi civilians in an incident that shocked the consciences of many people. Former President Barack Obama ran up a civilian death toll in the hundreds, including four U.S. citizens, with drone strikes that horrified observers. And, if the Democratic lawmakers in that video are concerned about the legality and morality of the brewing conflict with Venezuela (and they should be), they should acknowledge that Obama himself called the aftermath of his administration's intervention in Libya the "worst mistake" of his presidency.
So, if we grant that judgment necessarily plays a role in assessing the legality, constitutionality, and morality of government actions, we must acknowledge that a lot of what the government does is legally dubious at best. That includes many programs favored by Democrats.
Firearms laws are a good example. Kelly, for example, rose to prominence largely on the issue of gun control after his wife, former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D–Ariz.), was shot in 2011. But the restrictions he favors run up against the Constitution's protections for private ownership of arms.
"A plain reading of the Second Amendment ought to be enough to stop nearly all federal gun laws," the Heartland Institute's Justin Haskins pointed out in 2021. "But over the past century, courts and scholars have watered down the Bill of Rights with convoluted arguments that contradict the overwhelming historical evidence available today."
By contrast, the income tax isn't unconstitutional; it was specifically authorized by the 16th Amendment. But it is intrusive and subject to political weaponization. Even when not political its enforcement is often abusive. And the tax is arguably immoral.
"To rigorously enforce an income tax on personal, business, and corporate income, government has to invade the privacy of every income-earning individual in the land," argued Byron Schlomach, director of Oklahoma's now-defunct 1889 Institute, in 2021. "Government gets to know how many children we have, how much we use a vehicle for business purposes, what vendors we use if we own a business, and how we divide the use of our house if we have a home office." Ultimately, he concluded, the income tax is "just plain evil."
Even when laws and government activities don't run afoul of specific protections for liberty or of moral sensibilities, they're often not authorized by the Constitution which grants the federal government only limited areas of responsibility.
"The vast majority of functions carried out by the Department of Education are not authorized by the Constitution," Thomas A. Berry, director of the Cato Institute's Robert A. Levy Center for Constitutional Studies, wrote in March. "That is because the Constitution grants the federal government only limited, enumerated powers, none of which encompass education policy."
The same could be said of so many other things the government does, from expansive regulation to so-called "entitlement" programs. They're activities in which government officials engage without any authorization from the Constitution, making them unconstitutional.
Take Advice to Refuse Illegal Orders Seriously, and Apply It Universally
So, if we're to take seriously—and I believe we are well-advised to do so—the six Democratic lawmakers' advice that "no one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution," there are interesting implications for our political culture. That's because much of what the federal government does on a daily basis flouts constitutional protections and offends human decency.
So, how would Slotkin and Kelly, and Deluzio, Goodlander, Houlahan, and Crow, respond to campaign a few years from now under the next Democratic administration urging ATF and IRS agents, federal regulators, and general workers to refuse orders? How would they treat an attempt to recruit more whistleblowers like Manning and Edward Snowden?
Don't get me wrong, I think the advice the lawmakers offer is praiseworthy. But I look forward to seeing it applied universally and becoming a permanent feature of our dealings with government. I suspect that likelihood hasn't occurred to those six legislators, but thanks to them for showing the way.
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"Some Democrats Urge the Military To 'Refuse Illegal Orders.' What if the IRS, ATF, and EPA Did the Same?"
You forgot the DEA, the FDA, and many more... And most especially, the White House staff!!!
Oh, PS, also Satan's odors to the POTUS (Orange Caligula) Shitself! THAT is where the shit starts, and shit flows downhill from there!
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Like that time Joe “child sniffer” Biden (D) thugs drone strike murdered 8 kids and an aid worker?
Like the cuntinuing times that Dear Orange Caligula odors the cuntinuing sudden, unannounced, unpredictable murders of peaceful, non-threatening travelers on the high seas.
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I don't know the verb "to odor."
STILL learning ...
"Odor in MY Court"! Is the odor given off by the Power Pigs who LOVE Punishment and Lawn Odor over ALL udder things! Actual justice, the common good, and mercy (upon our fellow beings) are foreign cuntcepts to those who LOVE Lawn Odor above ALL things!
(Ass long ass the trains run on time, shit is OK, even SPLENDIFERODOROUS, if the on-time trains run over and mangle and-or kill some illegal sub-humans, damn-shit-all!!!)
The nazi SSquirrel’s lunch is odiferous.
Yes.
There is a big difference between illegal as in “does not fit my politics or legal analysis” and illegal as in “murder”.
Retarded takes by Doc Retard, episode #8726
If he did a show of the choice takes on Broadway, he’d be eligible for a Tony award.
That is the rub, isn't it?
It especially is for the followers of an ideology who also push for a "living constitution", meaning the basic law is fluid depending on their interests. It is easier when the basic law is objective and means what it says.
Democrats want to be free from any accountability of any kind.
Not really and, as mentioned, plenty of what the State does is murder that these people don't have a problem with.
Illegal in which nation?
[D]emocrats [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire ... or ...
the Constitutional Republic USA?
...because I gotta say; There isn't much Democrats do that isn't ILLEGAL by the very definition of the USA.
Of course; those nasty Constitutional Republicans are the insurrectionists to the Nazi-Empire. It couldn't possibly be that the Nazi-Empire is the act of insurrection because they're (D)ifferent that way. Nazi-Empire take-over good. Old USA bad.
Aye, there's the rub. I wrote a story with a small discussion over government certifications for "not made by slave labor", with the joke being that since every jurisdiction has crimes that are not crimes in all other jurisdictions, those other jurisdictions were prone to calling other prisoners "slaves", since prisoners are made to work with either no pay or pay below the minimum wage.
The kicker was that because jurisdictions have different ages for adulthood and sometimes charge children as adults, they also needed a separate certification for "not made by child slave labor".
And because the empire's military was global, their uniforms could not be so certified because no matter whose definitions were used, their could be no such certifications which were valid everywhere.
They can quit, not refuse a presumed lawful order. Youre supporting sedition and an unelected bureaucracy. Stop pushing leftist narratives as moral.
Reason wants an anarcho tyranny govt with branches that are independent of the executive.
Even by fairly libertarian standards, two of the four groups refusing legal orders carries a significantly higher probability of getting shot in the face.
Not that the others have zero probability but, again by fairly libertarian standards, shooting an unarmed IRS staffer or EPA administrator is no bueno.
Peck: "If he does that again, you can shoot him."
Captain: "You do your job pencil neck. Don't tell me how to do mine."
"You do your job pencil neck. Don't tell
More evidence that Peck really had no dick.
Venkman’s analysis was correct.
Wouldn't quitting rather than obeying what they consider an unconstitutional order be refusing a presumed lawful order? I think quitting is probably the proper course, as opposed to refusing orders and staying anyway. But that has problems too as you have the potential to end up only with people who don't care if the order is constitutional or not (speaking generally here, not on current events).
There is a bit of a conflict in the oath they take (when the chain of command stops following the constitution). Which takes precedence, defending the constitution or obeying orders? Of course, such a conflict creates a messy situation because you can't just have everyone acting based on their own interpretation of the constitution when you have so many conflicting interpretations in circulation. I think this isn't so cut and dry and is yet another case that shows that the constitution only really works when most of the people who are supposed to be following it are sincerely trying to do so rather than trying to fit it to their own preferred outcomes.
That's not what they are telling people to do here. The dems aren't telling people to resign. They are telling them to refuse to do their job, not quit.
It is not on an individual employee to determine legality of orders. Scotus has upheld this fact many times. They can act as whistleblowers or quit. Those are their options.
What they are doing is acting them to act as The Resistance.
It is entirely cut and dry as to their options. Presumption of legal orders is the precedence. Quitting is the option they have. Not refusing to do something while maintaining their job.
I think I agree with you. It's still a mess when we have a lot of people in government who aren't in good faith trying to abide by the constitution. Arguably we have had government well outside of constitutional bounds for near a century at this point and I have little faith that we will ever elect people who will rectify that situation.
Jesse, most members of our Armed Forces cannot simply resign. Officers can resign their commissions. Enlisted members cannot "resign" the contracts they signed.
You're also wrong that "[i]t is not on an individual employee to determine legality of orders." The military chain of command, itself, taught soldiers the same as these members of Congress just said (and much more). At least it did so previously, and I believe that it did so for many years. Maybe it still does. In the early 80's (when Reagan was president) I and the other soldiers in my unit received such a briefing from a JAG officer (an Army lawyer). We were Airborne Rangers, and at that time someone seemed to be preparing to send us into combat. So somebody in our chain of command decided we should be briefed on the restraints imposed on us by our Constitution, federal law, and various treaties. The bottom line was that it was our duty to obey such restraints of law--even if we had received a contrary order from a superior officer . . . and even if we believed that violating such restraints was essential to saving our own lives and even if we believed it was essential to the success of our military mission.
The truth about our Constitution (underlying the statements of the members of Congress that Trump slandered) is stated plainly in Article VI of our Constitution. It declared that "the supreme Law of the Land" is limited to our "Constitution" and federal "Laws" that were "made in Pursuance" of our Constitution "and all Treaties." Not even the president nor even Congress was given any power to violate any provision of the supreme law of the land. Article II even emphasized that the president's duty (the duty of every executive branch employee) is specifically to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed."
Article VI commands that every public servant (including all state and federal employees (and not only members of the Armed Forces)) must swear "to support this Constitution." That means that the first, foremost and constant duty of every public servant is to support our Constitution in all official action. Article II stated the president's duties even more emphatically: he must "to the best of [his] Ability, preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution." So members of the Armed Forces cannot (lawfully) follow Trump and Hegseth when their actions or orders violate their oaths of office and our Constitution. The same legal limitations apply to Trump and DOJ attorneys and ICE employees.
When I served in Vietnam in 1970, just after My Lai, they gave us an orientation when we first got in-country telling us that is our duty to refuse any illegal order, specifically any order to kill civilians. Plus, when we were in Basic, they gave us a class on the laws of war, the Geneva Convention, and not to shoot civilians or prisoners of war or surrendering enemy, and not to obey any order to do so.
If any sailor or aviator in the Navy refused an order to fire on and destroy any of those drug boats, I don't think the Navy would prosecute it. They'd have to prove BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that such orders were lawful so as to sustain any guilty verdict beyond reasonable doubt for refusing a LAWFUL order. That would be very difficult considering that those drug boats are not military vessels and the crews are civilian. They may or may not be criminals engaged in criminal activity, but they're not military, and not terrorist or engaging in terrorist activities, rather drug smuggling, subject to criminal law and constitutional protections in criminal law.
Likely, the Navy asked for volunteers, and carried out the mission using only those who volunteered for the mission, and did not prosecute anyone, if there was anyone, who may have refused such orders.
Refusing to obey illegal orders is leftist?
Son, you got your priorities all confused-like.
re: "They can quit, not refuse a presumed lawful order."
That's not quite right. Officers can quit (resign their commissions) but enlisted cannot - and even officers under contract can be forced to finish out their commitment as enlisted after resigning the commission. So no, you can't simply say "I'll go be a civilian rather than obey this unlawful order."
What actually happens is "I refuse to obey this order and will accept the judgement of the court martial that will evaluate my decision. I do this knowing that my refusal is made in the heat of the moment but the court martial will weigh my decision with the advantage of hindsight and probably including information available to my commander but not to me." In the military, it's not merely 'I bet my career on my decision' - it's often 'I'm betting my life on my decision because being wrong could get me charged with cowardice in the face of the enemy or other firing-squad-eligible charges'.
Yes, the US does in fact train our military officers and enlisted to that level of moral courage. But the fact that it requires such moral courage means that only the most outrageous and obviously-illegal orders are going to be flatly disobeyed.
Okay, not all illegal orders are so high-stakes. An order to 'fudge the results of this audit' could be (and would be) routinely ignored with little to no consequence other than a loss of future cooperation or promotion. And maybe that's the better analogy to the kinds of "illegal" non-military orders being considered in the article above.
Didn't we just lose another Admiral over killing people in boats off Argentina ? Holsey supposedly clashed with Hegseth in a high powered meeting and Holsey offered his resignation rather than do whatever Hegseth wanted. I don't know the details, but the outcome is Admiral Holsey is resigning at year's end instead of on the spot like it was originally reported.
Yeah, at the General Officer level (which includes Admirals), the process is more political and less courts-martial. I was describing the process and expectations for company-grade officers and below.
Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification.
See the other thread).
1.) Enlistees cannot quit.
2.) "Presumed lawful" does not mean, "obey without question."
Fuck off you mendacious twat!
Saying "no, that's not what I was hired to do" seems reasonable response. At that point, if your supervisor is unhappy with your response, he can fire you. Easy enough?
Recently watched a lawyer review on that very topic. It can often result in termination. In the military, they typically don’t just discharge you. And when they do, a dishonorable discharge makes future employment elsewhere challenging. Perhaps look at the Vietnam era folks that travelled to Canada to avoid the draft. I think potus Carter gave them a blanket pardon, but it might not have been until the 90s when the “traitor” sentiment faded. They have the swords of Damocles hanging over them.
Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, and MLK Jr. all got themselves KILLED for doing the RIGHT thing, and disobeying the tribalists and evil people. For that, we all owe them (or their memories) tremendously. We need MORE people like that! I wish we'd vote for them, but they don't WANT power, and we the voters are collectively WAAAAAAY too self-righteous to vote for them! They make us look bad!
For sociobiology etc. details and documentation on the above, please read a mere two short butt excellent web pages at http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
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Very few employers ask for discharge information.
Interviewer: I see you were in the US Army for 7 years. What did you do there?
Interviewee: After basic training, I was sent to infantry and got deployed to a forever war for a year. I refused to shoot civilians that had observed us committing war crimes and then spent the rest of my 6 years in a military prison.
Might want to gloss that over. In over thirty years since I left the army, not once has any employer asked to see my DD-214.
Easy enough?
Depending on the job and contract, no.
There's also the fact that one side expects you to obey and defend even if one or both makes you uncomfortable (or not sign up) and the other wants you to disobey the people you're contracted to obey and obey them under no particular authority and not defend what you're contracted to defend (and, given other shutdown protests, still collect a paycheck).
This is a color-style revolution being stirred up among volunteers from the top down by tone-deaf morons who don't know how to read a room, not some sort of "Alice's Restaurant"-style grass-roots, mass conscientious defection among (potential) conscripts.
Whats funny is we now have NGO and USAID emails directly planning tbe domestic color revolution.
Liberals be retarded like this.
We literally have unelected bureaucrats who do this, then sue when fired, protected by dem controlled unions.
So fuck off.
They. Can. Quit. Or shut the fuck up.
The problem is, the Democrats see lawful orders as "things I like, given by people I like", and not an objective standard.
Which makes them unlawful orders, especially coming from people *cough* Autopen *cough* outside the COC. Ad hominem, not ad litteram.
It's also that laws are so vague and ill-defined that it can take years for the Supreme Court to finally decide what is constitutional, and then come back years later and decide differently.
It's a nice ideal, refusing to obey unconstitutional and illegal orders, but it's impossible to apply in real time, especially in the military, since the Supreme Court ruled that military service is not slavery. But they didn't decide that until Butler v. Perry in 1916, 50 years after the 13th Amendment made slavery illegal.
Kinda hard to know what laws mean with that kind of lag.
"Like us, you all swore an oath to protect and defend this Constitution. And right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home."
So please come and arrest us for sedition.
Threats to the constitution pretty much always come from right here at home. Foreigners have no obligation to abide by the constitution.
Haven't you argued that illegals are under US jurisdiction?
Sorry, I mean outside of the US. Of course foreigners inside the country (of whatever legal status other than diplomats) are subject to the laws of the US.
Which is not what ’jurisdiction’ refers to.
I am still waiting for a single example of an actually illegal order issued by Trump.
You know, not an order that the democrats don't like, really, legally illegal.
Yeah JD is all warm and fuzzy about the message but it's pretty obvious that these clowns are trying to encourage the same resistance that ultimately took down Trump's first term. It's parsed to imply that the administration is asking government employees to do something illegal without telling them what illegal orders they're supposed to refuse. This is the same entrenched dishonesty that lead a member of Congress to stand on the House floor and state that "a man named Jeffrey Epstein" gave contributions to Republicans and then go on CNN and claim that she never said "the " Jeffrey Epstein.
Struck me too. The video is a slimy piece of rhetoric. Be specific. We're bound to have people "resisting" for all sorts of reasons. If enough, it could get chaotic. But it's no doubt what they're aiming for.
As one with a law enforcement background, I understand the importance of “chain of command.” You cannot have thousands of individuals, most lacking crucial information and expertise, make independent decisions based on feelings. I can’t think of anything more undemocratic than an unelected person, employee or civilian, thwarting an elected official from carrying out the will of the people.
That's a very similar argument to the one FDR made AGAINST federal gov't workers unionizing - he feared federal policy being thwarted by union strikes.
ME2R, fortunately, our Constitution isn't even slightly concerned with whether refusing an illegal order is "undemocratic" or whether such refusal prevents "carrying out the will of the people" (as I think you mean that expression). We shouldn't be either.
The will of the People that governs is not necessarily the people who voted for any particular representative. The will of the People that governs is expressed in our Constitution. The truth about our Constitution (underlying the statements of the members of Congress that Trump slandered) is stated plainly in Article VI of our Constitution. It declared that "the supreme Law of the Land" is limited to our "Constitution" and federal "Laws" that were "made in Pursuance" of our Constitution "and all Treaties." Not even the president nor even Congress was given any power to violate any provision of the supreme law of the land. Article II even emphasized that the president's duty (the duty of every executive branch employee) is specifically to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed."
Article VI commands that every public servant (including all state and federal employees (and not only members of the Armed Forces)) must swear "to support this Constitution." That means that the first, foremost and constant duty of every public servant is to support our Constitution in all official action. Article II stated the president's duties even more emphatically: he must "to the best of [his] Ability, preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution." So members of the Armed Forces cannot (lawfully) follow Trump and Hegseth when their actions or orders violate their oaths of office and our Constitution. The same legal limitations apply to all public servants.
re: "Article VI commands ..."
Not quite. It commands that all Officers take such an oath. It does not extend that oath requirement to mere employees. It would not, for example, make sense to force the second assistant night janitor in the Missouri State Auditor's department to take such an oath.
That said, we've chosen (by statute) to extend that obligation all the way down to the most junior enlisted soldier or sailor so I suppose there's no reason you couldn't have that janitor take the oath - just that it's not a constitutional obligation.
Rossami, fair point, but they meant "officer" much as we use the word "employee." Enlisted members of the Armed Forces, for example, aren't thought of as "officers," but they are bound by such oath. So are the vast majority (and maybe all) of state and federal employees.
There's rather a lot of argument by law professors (and others) over the scope of that word in the Constitution but so far as I'm aware none of them argue for such a sweeping definition as you describe. You're going to need more than a mere assertion to support that claim.
Note, by the way, that Article II, Sec 2 requires senatorial advice and consent for appointment of "Officers" but nobody argued even during the Founding era to extend that down to janitorial staff. It would be strange for the founders to use the same word to meet two different things in the same document.
Rossami, some discussions regarding the scope of the word "officer" in various provisions of our Constitution might be insightful. But some also very well might not be relevant at all. I expect few focus on the fact that every lawyer admitted to practice before any court is an officer of such court. Yet, the vast majority of attorneys who are officers for purposes of Article VI's oath clause are not officers for any other provision of our Constitution. Nobody ever thought that senators could preclude making many people (including lawyers) officers. Article II requires the president to "Commission all the Officers of the United States," but he doesn't commission attorneys or non-commissioned officers of the Armed Forces.
Rossami, FYI, many more people are subject to such an oath than many of us might think. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/337.1 quoting 8 C.F.R. Section 337.1. Those regulations were created consistent with the president's duty (under Article II) to "preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution" to "the best of [the president's] Ability." So the regulations require nearly every naturalized citizen to swear or affirm (acknowledge being bound) to "support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic" and to "bear true faith and allegiance to the same."
Naturalized citizens are indeed required by statute to take such an oath. Again, there is no such constitutional obligation (and there is no such obligation at all for citizens who don't have to go through the naturalization process).
Obviously, naturalized citizens aren't required by the Constitution to take such an oath. They're not even bound directly by a statute. They're bound by regulations promulgated by the executive branch. Even so, they are bound by such oath. My point was that many more people are bound by such an oath than many of us might think.
Rossami, I should have said the Constitution or law requires every attorney and nearly every state or federal public servant to swear or affirm (acknowledge they are bound) to support our Constitution. Article II specifies the president's oath. 5 U.S.C. 3331 applies to every "individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services." 10 U.S.C. 502 also applies to enlisted members of the Armed Forces. The oath for attorneys admitted to practice before federal court is at https://www.uscourts.gov/forms-rules/forms/attorney-oath-admission.
Cite the evidence supporting your allegations please.
"So members of the Armed Forces cannot (lawfully) follow Trump and Hegseth when their actions or orders violate their oaths of office and our Constitution."
Provide the evidence of the actions or orders that violate.
Military targeting of naval vessels
1) flagged to a country that we are not at war with; and
2) which are accused but not convicted of criminal activity; and
3) which do not pose an imminent threat to friendly forces
would seem to apply.
And before you ask, yes I've been consistent in opposing such extrajudicial killings across multiple administrations.
Neutral, "the evidence supporting" my assertions includes the plain meaning of the plain text of our Constitution that I quoted.
The "evidence of the actions or orders [of Trump or Hegseth] that violate" our Constitution and their oaths includes more of our Constitution and the public statements (admissions) of Trump and Hegseth, themselves.
We the People delegated almost exclusively to Congress the powers to authorize actions that might involve us into war. See Article I ("To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water"). For elaboration on the meaning, see, e.g., https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C11-1-1/ALDE_00013587/%5B'marque'%5D. See also https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C11-2-5-2/ALDE_00013917/%5B'marque'%5D.
One of the most important attributes of the power to involve us in war is that all members of Congress are directly elected by the people who will have to fight and die in any such conflict. The entire House of Representatives must stand for election every 2 years along with 1/3 of the Senate. So We the People can deal fairly promptly with members of Congress who are responsible for wars of which We the People don't approve.
But if we give Trump's pretense that he's exercising war powers all the respect that such pretense deserves, we would ignore his lies and look at the real essence of his real (and repeated) justifications. Trump and Hegseth are killing people for no better reason than that Trump claims they those unidentified people are planning sometime in the future to smuggle unidentified drugs across some unidentified part of the U.S. border. Trump and Hegseth are summarily executing people without any legal authorization from Congress regarding either armed conflict or criminal conduct.
Regarding this matter, it's most simple and straightforward to judge Trump and Hegseth as if they were on trial for murder and we were the jury. Federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1111) defines "Murder" as "the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought." So we should think for ourselves about the substance of Trump's killings and his own admissions regarding those killings. We should think for ourselves about whether such killings are "unlawful." Our Constitution is paramount among the supreme law of the land, so any conduct that is unconstitutional (i.e., violates our Constitution) is necessarily unlawful (illegal).
Trump and Hegseth are knowingly and deliberately undermining some of the most vital principles and safeguards of our own lives, liberty and property in our Constitution. For the first time in history, in the 1780's constitutions governing the conduct of all government employees were written and ratified by the People to turn public officials into public servants and to require the separation of legislative, executive, and judicial powers. All this and much more was done to protect the People from abuses of powers (that had been granted) or usurpations of powers (that had not been granted) by the People to our public servants.
In Federalist No. 47, for example, James Madison emphasized the following (and even more):
“The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many” is “the very definition of tyranny.” “[T]he preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct.”
Madison quoted Montesquieu (in the Spirit of the Laws published in 1754) saying, "There can be no liberty where the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or body of magistrates," or, "if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers."
"The reasons on which Montesquieu grounds his maxim are a further demonstration of his meaning. 'When the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person or body,' says he, 'there can be no liberty, because apprehensions may arise lest THE SAME monarch or senate should ENACT tyrannical laws to EXECUTE them in a tyrannical manner.' Again: 'Were the power of judging joined with the legislative, the life and liberty of the subject would be exposed to arbitrary control, for THE JUDGE would then be THE LEGISLATOR.
Were it joined to the executive power, THE JUDGE might behave with all the violence of AN OPPRESSOR.' "
With the foregoing in mind, our Constitution separated powers very carefully and emphatically. Our Constitution emphasized that no public servant was given any power to violate our Constitution. Article VI established that our Constitution was paramount as the "supreme Law of the Land," and it bound all state and federal public servants "to support" our "Constitution." Article II further emphasized that the president's powers were limited to those necessary to "preserve, protect and defend" our "Constitution" to "the best of" the president's "Ability."
By purporting to punish such potential crimes (and enforce federal criminal law) by imposing capital punishment, Trump and Hegseth are violating (at least) the following parts of our Constitution.
Article III:
"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."
"The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed."
Amendment V:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury."
"No person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
Amendment VI:
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
Amendment VIII:
No "cruel and unusual punishments" may be "inflicted."
Trump and Hegseth necessarily are violating federal criminal law because they are imposing a punishment (death) that was not authorized by Congress in whatever statute they are pretending to enforce.
The primary problem with the presumption or pretense that Article II somehow put all the powers of government into the hands of Trump is that it makes legislators, judges, grand juries and trial juries entirely irrelevant. Stated another way, Trump is unconstitutionally usurping the powers of legislators, judges, grand juries and trial juries. That is exactly what all the founders expressly opposed vehemently.
Prosecutions for Obeying Unlawful Orders :
The most prominent historical examples involve service members who were court-martialed for carrying out orders that were "manifestly unlawful," demonstrating that the "just following orders" defense is invalid under the UCMJ.
United States v. Calley (My Lai Massacre): The most well-known case is the court-martial of Army Lieutenant William "Rusty" Calley in the early 1970s. During the Vietnam War, Calley ordered his men to murder unarmed South Vietnamese civilians, including women and children, in the hamlet of My Lai in March 1968. Calley's defense was that he was following orders from his company commander, Captain Ernest Medina. The court-martial rejected this defense, finding the orders to be "palpably illegal," and Calley was convicted of 22 counts of murder.
United States v. Keenan: In this Korean War case, a private first class killed a civilian under orders from a sergeant. The court ruled that "A soldier is not a robot. He is a reasoning agent. The law does not permit a soldier to obey an order that he knows, or should know, is illegal".
Abu Ghraib Scandal: In the early 2000s, several U.S. military police personnel were prosecuted under the UCMJ for the torture and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. The defense of "following orders" or "informal guidance" was rejected, leading to convictions and imprisonment.
Back when Obama and Biden were exercising "prosecutorial discretion" to allow illegal aliens free rein, I pointed out that they would not appreciate the irony when a Republican administration chose to exercise prosecutorial discretion and let Dept. Of Labor to not prosecute union-busting, or the EPA to not charge polluters, etc.
I think the military veterans are responding to the boat-blowing-up orders, which are legal only very tenuously.
https://www.factcheck.org/2025/10/assessing-the-facts-and-legal-questions-about-the-u-s-strikes-on-alleged-drug-boats/
They are also warning the military to anticipate illegal orders to, for example, shoot protestors when the army is deployed to cities for law-enforcement reasons (not army's role) and reminding them in advance that they could be prosecuted for behavior like that (at least after Trump dies of his dementia or in 3 years). There are too many cell phones around nowadays to get away with claiming protestors are throwing rocks when they are not.
The unspoken issue is the woefully poor constitutional education being served up in public schools.
If judges can't agree on constitutionality, why do we assume an intelligence worker or a front line soldier can figure out what is an unlawful order? Yes, some are simple "Burn down this village, kill all the villagers, including women & children!", but when pressed, these six former military/intelligence workers struggle to provide an actual example of an unlawful order that should be refused, they deflect with "we need to be prepared" and "based on comments from POTUS I think he might issue something illegal in the future".
I think the gov't should release their own video, reminding soldiers, intelligence workers the risk if they mistakenly refuse otherwise lawful orders...
Hundreds of 5-4 SCOTUS decisions demonstrate that even highly educated "Constitutional scholars" can't agree on what is constitutional or not. It is incumbent on the six political theatre Dems to get specific in order that their interpretations of the Constitution can be discussed.
Sometimes SCOTUS justices are just too clever by half (they work too hard to make black and white seem gray). Sometimes they knowingly violate our Constitution. Sometimes they strive to deceive us about our Constitution. Sometimes they outright lie about our Constitution. We've seen most, if not all, current justices do all the above.
An important truth about our Constitution was revealed repeatedly by some SCOTUS justices. For example, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), they reminded us that of "the principle" that "[t]he Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning." "Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings that would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the founding generation."
“As this Court has often observed, ‘The Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning.’ " State and federal "constitutions, although framed by conventions, are yet created by the votes of the entire body of electors in a State, the most of whom are little disposed, even if they were able, to engage in such refinements. The simplest and most obvious interpretation of a constitution, if in itself sensible, is the most likely to be that meant by the people in its adoption."
Back your allegations with evidence.
You throw your opinion around as if it has weight yet no evidence presented to back it. Why would I take your word for anything other than hyperbole?
"Sometimes they knowingly violate our Constitution. Sometimes they strive to deceive us about our Constitution. Sometimes they outright lie about our Constitution. We've seen most, if not all, current justices do all the above."
Neutral, why would you think I would care whether you take my word for anything? I don't expect anyone to take my word for anything. That's why I quote our Constitution and people who offer valuable insights (e.g., James Wilson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and sometimes SCOTUS justices). My point here is in the last 2 paragraphs. If you don't like the first paragraph, just ignore it. But I'll give you one example (of several that I could show from the past few years).
Some evidence regarding at least some justices was provided in the majority opinion in Trump v. Anderson. We don't know how many SCOTUS justices lied to us in Trump v. Anderson because the opinion was anonymous (per curiam).
Trump v. Anderson was founded on at least two lies. One was the obvious fairytale-type falsehood that all "federal officers" '‘owe their existence and functions to the united voice of the whole, not of a portion, of the people.' ” That's obviously false in multiple respects. In no federal election do "the whole people" speak with a "united voice."
No president since George Washington can even potentially plausibly claim to have been elected by "the united voice of the whole" of "the people." As every election for national office highlights, the multitude of voters clearly do not speak with one voice. Many people do not speak (vote) at all. Those who do speak (vote) don't speak with one voice. No matter who gets elected, usually very many voters speak for a different candidate.
Moreover, we clearly have no national election. Every election in which voters vote and that culminates in or contributes to a federal employee being elected is a state election. As states like Texas, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio and Utah have highlighted recently, state legislatures make state laws, e.g., governing who can vote and where they can vote (including redistricting/gerrymandering) to determine how the president is chosen. The president clearly is not chosen by "the united voice of the whole" of "the people."
As Article II established clearly, the president must be chosen by the votes of state electors. State electors must be chosen according to state law and their votes are expected (or required) to reflect (according to state law) the votes of state voters who often have been corralled into districts by state legislators.
Article II of our Constitution proves the truth of Madison's statement in The Federalist No. 45 that "Without the intervention of the State legislatures, the President of the United States cannot be elected at all. [State legislatures] must in all cases have a great share in [the president's] appointment, and will, perhaps, in most cases, of themselves determine it."
Another obvious falsehood by SCOTUS justices in Trump v. Anderson was that "powers over [the] election" of the president "must be specifically 'delegated to, rather than reserved by, the States.' ” That contention was clearly contrary to the plain text of our Constitution. Our original Constitution was amended very promptly to identify and distinguish "delegated" powers from "reserved" powers in the Tenth Amendment. It's not even plausible that any SCOTUS justice, much less all SCOTUS justices, failed to grasp the significance of the plain text of the single sentence of the Tenth Amendment.
The Tenth Amendment summarized our Constitution in a single sentence: "by the Constitution" We the People "delegated to the United States" limited "powers;" We "prohibited by it [our Constitution] to the States" certain powers; We "reserved to the States" certain powers; and We "reserved" to "the people" certain powers (in the Constitution) as well as the remaining powers.
Stated another way, the Tenth Amendment emphasized that all powers relevant to the truth (falsity) of the SCOTUS justices' statement, above, were "reserved to the States" except to the extent that our Constitution "delegated" limited powers "to the United States" government or "prohibited" certain powers "to the States." So state legislators are actively working to use partisan gerrymandering to rig not only the upcoming congressional elections, but also the next presidential election.
Innocent until proven guilty. No one can be charged for thought crimes or what others think they may do in the future.
These patently stupid people must be getting paid somehow by the enemies of Trump. Soros bucks in the back pocket... Diamonds, cars, foreign property, gold bars. They wouldn't put their necks out for free!
Neutral, think about what you wrote: "Innocent until proven guilty." You like to ask for evidence, so show us the evidence that tends to identify any person that Trump or Hegseth executed or evidence that tends to prove any fact establishing how any such person was guilty of any crime. Trump and Hegseth merely claimed unidentified people were planning to smuggle unidentified drugs into some unidentified part of the U.S.
Where were these "patriots" when the country was being tag-teamed by an unelected wife and son? One of which was a crack addict, well maybe both, we don't really know?
There's run-of-the-mill hypocrisy (the fuel of D.C.), and then there is violation of their oaths. Their oaths were apparently quite conditional, performative, and ultimately useless.
Without accountability oaths are toilet paper. Without accountability laws are meaningless.
One rule for me, another for thee.
Why can't indictments be handed up for those in the close circle to the snoozer and chief autopen who did not follow their duty to the constitution 25th amendment?
Remember just weeks ago when we were supposed to tone down the violent rhetoric? Now we have dems calling for insurrection claiming the President is assulting people, and Trump saying off with their heads. It never lasts.
Dems aren't calling for insurrection; stop listening to faux news and go watch the ENTIRE clip for yourself. They said specifically to remember that you don't have to follow illegal orders. Did any of them say "Trump is giving illegal orders, dont listen to him, revolt ! " No, not even close. But trump did say we should hang them for repeating what is clearly taught to soldiers during training.
Don't try to boaf-sides this.
They said, "This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. .. the threats to our Constitution ... from right here at home."
If the military is threatening us, how else do we respond but violence?
Insurection - an act or instance of revolting against civil authority
Revolt - to act in or show opposition or disobedience
Senators are telling people to oppose civil authority, because its a threat
MLK preached nonviolence in the face of violence and adversity. So did Ghandi, Cesar Chavez, & Nelson Mandela. Violence is not an automatic response, it is a choice that you make.
Violence is not an automatic response, it is a choice that you make.
Like throwing things at authority to provoke them to respond?
Yes.
Most people are not brave enough to do something, knowing the consequences, and doing it anyway. Most people do a thing with the expectation that they won't get caught or that there will be an exception or some other way to weasel out.
I agree with mlk. I was just pointing out the usual hypocrisy calling for non-violent rhetoric and then saying the military is threatening the people. And to take action.
You are a fucking joke.
"They said specifically to remember that you don't have to follow illegal orders. Did any of them say "Trump is giving illegal orders, dont listen to him, revolt ! " No, not even close. "
It's precisely this that makes the video so slimy. Be specific.
Never mind the fact that JD is comparing apples to zebras here (active-duty military/LEO ≠ agency bureaucrats) ... but the short answer is: fire time, strip their pensions, and eliminate the position.
"Unelected bureaucrats" is a stupid term. We also have unelected police, unelected military, unelected teachers, unelected diplomats, amd unelected spies.
The article does not mention "Unelected bureaucrats."
There was no point for the video to be made. Members of Congress are NOT in the Chain of Command of the Armed Forces. If members of Congress have problems with what military leadership is doing, they can exercise their oversight abilities/capabilities.
This was a literal psyop video, probably born from the former CIA Congresswoman, run past lawyers to see how far it actually blurred the lines, the was released.
As a former member of the military, we are brief about our rules of engagement and about lawful orders by our leadership. I have never seen or heard of something like this, ever.
This was a clear attempt, in my opinion, to try and get some folks to "resist".
"This was a literal psyop video, probably born from the former CIA Congresswoman, run past lawyers to see how far it actually blurred the lines, the[n] was released."
Yes, it always boils down to subterfuge, courtesy of our elites. THEY are truly the ones we must resist.
For starters, don't get entrapped by their disingenuous forums. State the obvious, then vote them ALL out.
It is necessary to eliminate the dem party. This is just the beginning.
Yeah. We got lots of classes on the Laws of War and lawful orders when I was in. From boot camp to the end of my time. Every Marine knows what happened at My Lai. And we had lots of discussions over the years on what Lawful meant. Having a bunch of politicians put out this video like it's a public service announcement serves no legit purpose.
They think it did otherwise they would not have done it.
The purpose is most likely keeping the sheeple distracted and the TDS flowing setting up for the next video which will call out their targets more clearly.
Schumer threatened SCOTUS judges, the sheeple dox'd them and set up illegal protests that LEO's never shut down.
Expect a similar spewing of hate to push a next level of violent protests against the National Guard is my guess.
They did it for politics to win elections. That's all they do anything for.
You don't get to decide what is legal and what is not. If it's torture at a prison in Iraq, well that's more obvious. If you want to claim your deployment is illegal. You will be able to make your case that the orders were illegal at your court martial.
So, all orders should be obeyed without question? That's not how it works. "I was just obeying orders," is not a valid defense for following illegal orders.
While orders are presumed legal, when it is clear they are not (e.g. murdering unarmed civilians, sexually assaulting or torturing POWs, etc.) soldiers are, indeed, obligated to distinguish between legal and illegal and disobey the illegal. Sure, they may get it wrong, and woe be unto them when the disciplinary hammer falls. However, they cannot abrogate their responsibility to distinguish between legal and illegal orders and simply follow all orders without regard to their legitimacy.