On Tariffs, It Was Gorsuch vs. Trump at SCOTUS
The legal challengers to Trump's tariffs had a good day in court.
It's always unwise to predict the outcome of a U.S. Supreme Court case based solely on what happened during oral arguments. So let's go ahead and attempt it anyway.
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I tuned in to yesterday's high-stakes oral arguments over President Donald Trump's tariffs, expecting to find Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito signaling their strong support for the president's broad claims of executive power. And that's exactly what Thomas and Alito did: We can expect them to vote for Trump.
Along similar lines, I expected Justices Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotomayor, and Ketanji Brown Jackson to signal their strong opposition to Trump's position. And that's exactly what they signaled, too. We can expect them to vote for the legal challengers.
But I wasn't so sure about what to expect from the remaining four justices.
I figured that Justice Brett Kavanaugh would be at least somewhat sympathetic to the president's claims of executive power, given Kavanaugh's own view that the president should receive broad judicial deference when foreign affairs are involved.
One big question for me going into yesterday's arguments was thus whether Kavanaugh would buy Trump's argument that his sweeping tariffs do fully implicate foreign affairs. Based on the oral arguments, Kavanaugh appeared to buy what the Trump administration was selling. Kavanaugh now seems to be a more likely vote for Trump.
I figured that Justice Amy Coney Barrett was going to be more of a toss-up, and so she was. She grilled both sides sharply and seemed open at times to the kind of reading of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act that could favor Trump's tariffs. And there were also times when she seemed in harmony with Kavanaugh, which was also a good sign for Trump.
But Barrett also seemed disinclined toward Trump's position at other points, and questioned whether the federal law invoked by Trump could be reasonably understood to allow him to impose such tariffs at all. For me, Barrett's vote is too close to call.
I knew that Chief Justice John Roberts would be worth a very close study, and I wasn't wrong about that. As I've previously noted, Roberts' long career on the bench has found him to be both friend and foe to executive power. He seemed more comfortable in the foe position yesterday, although he gave the legal challengers a hard time, too.
But Roberts seemed to go hardest against Solicitor General John Sauer. "You have a claimed source in [the International Emergency Economic Powers Act] that had never before been used to justify tariffs," Roberts told the Trump official. "No one has argued that it does until this—this particular case." And, Roberts added, "the basis for the claim seems to be a misfit" with the federal law. As Roberts put it, "the exercise of the power is to impose tariffs, right? And the statute doesn't use the word 'tariffs.'"
Those are not words that Sauer wanted to hear coming from the mouth of the chief justice. I'm not making a firm prediction here, but I could definitely see Roberts voting against Trump based on what happened yesterday.
Now let's talk about Justice Neil Gorsuch, who, in my view, stole the show. Shortly before yesterday's oral arguments kicked off, I wrote that if Gorsuch "lean[s] in on non-delegation and separation of powers concerns," it would mean that "Gorsuch may vote against Trump."
Well, Gorsuch certainly leaned in. Under "your theory of the Constitution," Gorsuch demanded of Sauer, referring to the Trump official's repeated invocation of Trump's inherent power over foreign affairs, "what would prohibit Congress from just abdicating all responsibility to regulate foreign commerce, or for that matter, declare war to the President?"
A few minutes later, Gorsuch pressed Sauer on the inevitable implications of Trump's claim that Congress had actually delegated such unbridled tariff authority to the executive. "Don't we have a serious retrieval problem here," Gorsuch asked, "because, once Congress delegates by a bare majority and the President signs it—and, of course, every president will sign a law that gives him more authority—Congress can't take that back without a super majority. And even—you know, even then, it's going to be veto-proof. What president's ever going to give that power back? A pretty rare president."
In short, Gorsuch stated, "Congress, as a practical matter, can't get this power back once it's handed it over to the President. It's a one-way ratchet toward the gradual but continual accretion of power in the executive branch and away from the people's elected representatives."
Those words must have set off major alarm bells for Sauer because Gorsuch basically argued that the logic of Trump's position was totally poisonous to the constitutional separation of powers. The phrase "no kings" comes to mind.
Then, some two hours later, as the oral arguments were winding down, Gorsuch spoke up in support of one of the key arguments advanced by the legal challengers. Here is the relevant exchange between Gorsuch and that lawyer:
JUSTICE GORSUCH: It does seem to me, tell me if I'm wrong, that the really key part of the context here, if not the dispositive one for you, is the constitutional assignment of the taxing power to Congress, the power to reach into the pockets of the American people is just different and it's been different since the founding and the Navigation Acts that were part of the spark of the American Revolution, where Parliament asserted the power to tax to regulate commerce…and Americans thought even Parliament couldn't do that, that that had to be done locally through our elected representatives.
Isn't that really the major questions, nondelegation, whatever you want to describe it, isn't that what's really animating your argument today?
MR. GUTMAN: I think it's a huge piece of what's animating our argument. Thank you.
When a justice takes the time to restate an advocate's key argument even more eloquently and forcefully than the advocate himself has managed to do during oral arguments, that is a very strong indication that the justice is sympathetic to that argument. Put differently, Gorsuch likely views Trump's tariffs as a violation of both the separation of powers and the nondelegation doctrine and is therefore much more likely to rule against them.
In sum, the legal challengers had a good day in court. And it's certainly conceivable that the challengers will win over Trump, perhaps by a 5-4 vote with Gorsuch and Roberts (or Barrett) joining Kagan, Sotomayor, and Jackson.
Now we just have to wait and see.
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DR;dr
More wishcasting?
LMFAO keep doing the ostrich buddy - WAAAAAHHGH!!!!!!! WAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!! WAAAAAAHHHH!!!! 😀 😀 😀
Poor .22 short squib load. Still seething and still irrelevant. Perhaps some more ALL CAPS next time.
Oh look 😀 a frail right wing non-individual thinks it has an opinion? 😀
Needs MOAR CAPS, .22 short squib load.
The problem isn't Trump wanting to "retcon" the law. The problem is The Constitution gave Congress the power to levy tariff's and Congress gave that power to The President along with the power to declare an emergency. Trump's argument is that he has the right to do it because Congress said he could.
Isn't Roberts' credibility really the only thing that matters?
He did come up with the term penaltax to help nigbama
Settle down.
I feel your pain, loser. The mask is off.
That pain you feel is your own, losing pile of shit.
I feel your pain, loser.
You feel your own pain, asshole.
Your self-loathing is clear, .22 short squib load.
I,too, heard the arguments, in full. I also read Gorsuch and Barret's books I'm betting that Roberts is bound by his prior "Major issues" votes to vote against the tarrifs. Barrett's book sounds like Gorsuch wrote it (statutes can't change the constitution). My bet (a hopeful old lawyer) is 6:3 against the tarrifs
That would be a welcome result, since if it’s 5-4 those who want most power to reside in the Executive will claim it’s a weak ruling. That it’s basically a win for Trump.
I'm surprised that Kavanaugh is seen as favorable to Trump. But I'll be shocked if Gorsuch and Barrett go along with this. I doubt Roberts will either, so either 7-2 or 6-3 against Trump.
Gorsuch continues to be one of the best justices of all time. He gets the critical point here is bigger than tariffs. It's the nondelegation doctrine and it needs to be defended.
Agreed
I have been pleasantly surprised with both Gorsuch and Barrett. While both lean right, they seem to both have principles they aren’t willing to surrender to conservative litigants.
Once Alito and Thomas are replaced (hopefully with Justices more like O’Connor, Gorsuch, Breyer, Souter, or Barrett who are principled and somewhat unpredictable) we will hopefully be able to get away from partisan test cases being pushed so hard.
It seems like if you can’t predict the outcome, you are less likely to bring a fringe/partisan case before the Court for fear of setting a precedent you hate by losing.
Alito and Thomas at least balance out the liberal wing. You can bet if this case was brought against Biden it would be a 3 for 3 swap with Kavanaugh joining Alito and Thomas voting against, and the 3 liberals voting for the admin.
It's sad that SCOTUS can't read the plain language of the Constitution or statutes like IEEPA. This should really be a 9-0 decision.
I have to agree that Gorsuch is one of the best justices , at least for the last 50 or so years. His Gamble dissent was spot on.
I have agreed with almost everyone of his opinions and dissents with the exception of the sex orientation discrimination case - my apologies for forgetting the name of the case
Bostock?
Absolutely correct. Trumps "genius" is using the power Congress gave him as leverage to gain better trade deals for the US. If Congress was in session they could vote to take that power back but Dems don't want that. They want an imperial Presidency and Judicial Branch that can ram through everything citizens don't want and claim there was nothing they could do about it.
Separation of powers and checks and balances are awful … as long as the GOP holds the White House. Is that the argument, conservatives?
So, democrats did it first?
It's only bad when the GOP repeats democrat policies?
Sarcasmic 2.0
I feel your pain, loser.
You're entirely too stupid to feel anything, asswipe.
When exactly did Democrats do it? This overt and targeted attempt to create an all-powerful, unquestionable executive has never happened in American history. We are truly in uncharted territory here.
I guess you never heard of FDR.
BINGO!
Yeah. Actually Democrats did do it first. Way back in 1845 Democrat President Polk was the first President to order tariffs and the Dems in Congress let him which set the precedent.
So, any limits on federal power are awful...as long as the Democrats hold any branch of government. Is this your argument?
No. This has been another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
"Congress, as a practical matter, can't get this power back once it's handed it over to the President. It's a one-way ratchet toward the gradual but continual accretion of power in the executive branch and away from the people's elected representatives."
The people? The same people who can't name their US Senators or Representatives? The same people who view federal politics and national elections like voting for home-coming queens? And the same people who demand a Dear Leader to impose their ideology on those other evil idiots?
LMAO AAAAAAAHHHHHHH AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Lmfao you butthurt elitist OLD WHITE OBSOLETE UNIVERSALLY REJECTED HIGHLY UNPOPULAR AND EXPIRED CONSERVAFAGS are sooooooo beautiful when you cry in impotent rage AAAAAAHHHHHHH 😀
Yes, the same people that just elected a Communist Islamist as Mayor of NYC and when asked can't name one policy of his they support. It was just the cool thing to do.
I really hope Gorsuch's argument wins the day. Unfortunately, I predict that it will be a solo dissent (or maybe concurrence). The rest of the Court is unlikely to be willing to follow the non-delegation doctrine to it's necessary conclusion - the dismantling of the Admininistrative State.
Whenever I try to muster hope that the American people will wake up and rekindle the effort to assert their Constitutional authority over government, old episodes of "Yes Minister" come back to haunt my dreams and I realize that the deep state will crush any such reawakening.
I wouldn't be so sure on that. I think it will be 5-4 one way or the other.
"On Tariffs, It Was TDS-addles slimy piles of lying shit like Root vs. Trump at SCOTUS"
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
ANOTHER DELICIOUS MELTDOWN OMG 😀
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Which one has worse TDS, Gorsuch, Barrett, or Roberts?
Trump wanted to pull Kavanaugh’s nomination because he didn’t like how he came across in hos hearings…Bush ended up ordering Collins to quickly vote for him and get him across the finish line. This is just like the Mueller investigation where Trump has nobody to blame but himself…he knew Bush Republicans would never accept him as president and yet he appointed them to important positions.
I am reluctant to hope for a 5-4 ruling against Trump's tariffs because the trend for liberty lately has been distinctly downhill and I want to avoid the pain of having my hopes dashed yet again. If I had to rank the Supreme Court against other champions of liberty in the current era they would be rather closer to the bottom than to the top, tepid first and second amendment rulings notwithstanding.
I disagree with your ranking but primarily because the list of "other champions of liberty" is so scant. Even the little that SCOTUS does puts them near the top of the list.
But I'd be happy to be corrected. What other current champions of liberty are you thinking of that outrank them?
Depends on whether you base it upon effectiveness or upon principled advocacy. The Institute for Justice has had the biggest real world impact on actual "wins" although it has not resulted in much real world fundamental change so far. "Reason" and the Cato Institute are probably the most consistent advocates for Constitutionally limited government and individual rights.
Ah, so you're counting advocates, not merely those inside the system who can directly make change. Yeah, I could agree with your ranking then.
Interesting to see such a contrast to Josh Blackman's Volokh summary (https://reason.com/volokh/2025/11/06/counting-to-five-for-the-government-in-the-tariffs-case/). I'm bookmarking both for whenever the decision comes down.
What's especially fascinating for me is that both are partisans, and both present their prognostications as objective.
I don’t see Root as a partisan, and calling Blackman a partisan is like calling the Palisades fire a campfire.
No, of course your side is not partisan. You either haven't read much Root or don't have a mirror.
I don't get this: What happens if Justice Gorsuch finds that the best reading of the statute is that the President has the authority to issue the tariffs, but then holds that such a delegation of authority violates the non-delegation doctrine. If four other Justices agree with Gorsuch's reading of the statute, there are five vote to uphold the statutory delegation....In that case, the tariffs survive.
What? Is this woke math? If 4 + Gorsuch agree that "the President has the authority to issue the tariffs" and 4 don't, then Gorsuch concurs with those against because he finds the statute is unconstitutional due to the non-delegation doctrine, how does that result in "the government ekes this one out?" The votes would tally 5-4 against.
Some of the Volokh commenters have the same question so I don't think just it's my legal ignorance causing my confusion.
It is possible to strike down part of the tariffs while allowing others. It is also possible for a judge to agree with one justification to strike down the tariffs while disagreeing with another justification.
It is also possible for a judge to agree with one justification to strike down the tariffs while disagreeing with another justification.
Yeah, but as long as a majority agree to strike down, even if they disagree on the justification, they would be struck down. Right?
I think he’s saying that the other four won’t concur that Congress can’t delegate tariff power, just that Trump can’t implement them through the Emergency Act.
Edit: Thus meaning that he could still tariff the fuck out of everyone, just not through this particular avenue.
Ooooohhhhh....that makes sense....Lawyers
The drug running rationale just seems like a pretext. I hated this kind of thing in previous administrations, and I hate it in this one, too. And the "one-way ratchet" towards executive power is a genuine threat.
And the "one-way ratchet" towards executive power is a genuine threat.
I think it is the biggest threat to the republic.
*Pessimistic hat on* The Republican has been dead for 100 years and we’re just living through the death throes.
Fair...but I want my hat back.
Don’t worry, I’m sure I’ll be back to my optimistic self tomorrow.
But for now, I foresee nobody being happy with the ruling in this case.
And that is precisely the problem within SCOTUS.
Most are ruling about WHO (i.e. Just TRUMPS Tariffs).
Instead of addressing the WHAT issue at hand.
...*all* the past UN-Constitutional [D] legislation.
I guess they still cannot figure out what their job description is.
This will come as a shock to you, but the reason why the Court is hearing a case about Trump, not Democrats, is that he's the current president. I bet you never thought of that, did you.
LMAO.
Why is the 'President' the case if you believe the 'President' doesn't have authority over Tariffs?
You literally clobbered your own stance on that one.
Leftard Self-Projection 101.
Is there anyone fluent in Retard who can translate that comment into English?
If the other justices were doing their jobs, they’d be thinking along the same lines as Gorsuch. But they aren’t worried about the delegation of tariff power, just how Trump is using it in this instance.
Which could ultimately result in them not taking any stance on non-delegation and leaving the door open for the next Democrat President to enact tariffs through EO, which many have purportedly said they’re against. TJJ can correct me if I’m mistaken.
(In my mind, it would be best if he convinced the conservative judges to agree with striking down the delegation of power. Leaving the power in place is the worst outcome.)
^Exactly +1000000. Thank you very much.
I wonder what Trump will do if the ruling doesn't go his way. Forcing Americans to pay more for imports something he's been wanting to do for over half his life. Now that he has the power he's not going to relinquish it willingly. I suspect he'll just keep doing what he's been doing and dare the Court to enforce their ruling.
That would be a historic move. So far Trump has pushed to the limits and maybe slightly beyond, but ultimately....TACO.
I think they'd justify the tariffs on a new laws/emergencies and we do it all over again ala Biden loan forgiveness.
That would be a historic move.
Worcester v. Georgia
I think they'd justify the tariffs on a new laws/emergencies and we do it all over again ala Biden loan forgiveness.
Perhaps. Or he'll just ignore the ruling. We're living through the downfall of the republic. Nothing will surprise me at this point.
Worcester v. Georgia
The difference in this case would be refusing to take action (enforcement for Jackson in Wv.G) vs. refusing to desist for Trump. If he didn't desist he would need rogue complicit agents to join him in...insurrection. A technical difference with huge repercussions.
Interesting times!
I think he could get away with it. He said the worst mistake of his first term was not surrounding himself with yes-men who are loyal to him, not the law or the Constitution. And he did not repeat it this term. He's already fired tens of thousands of federal employees and replaced them with toadies who passed a written loyalty test. And I'm sure that's continuing on an ongoing basis.
He's making sure that the federal government serves him, The Donald. Not the law or the Constitution, and certainly not the courts. In addition to that he could shoot someone on live television and a good third of the population would cheer. This is the end of the republic.
"May you live in interesting times." -Ancient Chinese curse
And the irony is the Deep State is what made him successful in his first term because Trump was held in check right up until Barr cleared him from the RussiaGate investigation. So right after he was cleared he started cheating in the 2020 election and then he surrendered to the Taliban and then Covid happened and that kept him in check until J6. So in a very short time Trump did a lot of dumb things although I support the surrender to the Taliban but it was still pretty dumb but the Afghanistan War just happened to be dumber.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the majority doesn’t concur with Gorsuch on the non-delegation, the delegation of tariff power stays in place as “constitutional” and Trump would be open to finding a new justification.
Which isn’t the same as them saying student loan forgiveness is totally unconstitutional and the Biden Admin (whoever was running it) said “nah, we’ll figure out how to do it anyways.”
You're right on the 1st part as far as I know.
You may be right on the 2nd too, but I thought it was a similar situation where the SC says this law doesn't allow that and so they reach in to the grab bag of infinite laws and try again, though not much difference to this non-lawyer.
I wish we could and would hold presidents to criminal charges for this stuff, impeachment at the very least, but Biden had a very good anti-impeachment plan....Kamala...although probably the same handlers anyway.
It’s totally possible I’m misremembering how it all went down, but I think that gets at the crux of the difference (at least in my mind): in one it was blatantly clear the law didn’t allow it, in the other it’s totally clear that the power shouldn’t have been delegated, but it was and the text of the law leaves a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.
Kamala was as full proof an anti-impeachment plan as Biden was for Obama. Man it’s been a crazy 20 years.
OK. I did a quick refresher on the school loan stuff. Here's a summary.
Biden canceled $430 billion in student debt under the Heroes Act citing the "emergency" of COVID (in 2022). In the decision to block that SCOTUS noted the limitations of executive authority and invoked the so-called major questions doctrine that Congress did not clearly delegate the power to make “decisions of vast economic and political significance.”
The second attempt was $183.6 billion forgiveness under the other programs like borrower defense (for defrauded students) and disabilities and through Public Service Loan Forgiveness.
So whether or not the 1st decision should have barred the second attempt...again to this non-lawyer, it seems it should have...but to lawyers I'm sure it's just gray enough to try.
I don't see how any justice could simply presume that the inferred tariff power is delegable without explicit statutory instructions (which don't exist). Furthermore, if the tariff power was permissibly delegated here, why wouldn't infer that the taxing power was also delegable to permit the Administration to impose a tax styled as a licensing fee.
No matter which avenue one explores, Trump's assertion is a major Separation of Powers violation.
It is indeed a major Separation of Powers problem. The challenge to this line of reasoning is that Congress has been making such delegations for well over a century and the courts have a long line of precedents allowing the delegations. While this one feels more severe the those prior delegations, it is legally little different. To say that all those delegations were wrong, would require a) the abandonment of stare decisis and b) a very great deal of moral courage. Other than Gorsuch, I don't see the Court ready to take those steps.
The likely outcome, therefore, is a solo opinion from Gorsuch on this separation of powers problem and a majority opinion (or maybe plurality) fixating on some trivial detail and avoiding the big picture.
"No matter which avenue one explores, Trump's assertion is a major Separation of Powers violation."
I agree but don't blame Trump for doing something that Presidents before him have done and Congress stood by and watched. This should have been settled way back in 1845 but it wasn't and now Trump is using another power Congress actually gave him, the right to declare an emergency to impose tariffs. Congress needs to stop shirking it's duty and do what the Constitution delegates the authority to them to do.
I agree. My serious personal SOP objection to this challenge to Trump (whom I voted for) was twofold: Executive poaching of Judicial power by claiming the case was non-reviewable, and Executive Poaching of Legislative power to impose tariffs.
Anyone could reasonably argue that it represents an historic power grab, and a giant magnification of the widespread misconception that the SCOTUS is entirely under control of Trump. The mind-blowing tangle with Marbury is itself historic.
I have deeper appreciation for Justice Gorsuch.
In this Trump TDS frenzy people seem to forget that Presidents have done this for quite some time. In fact, for about 175 yrs when Dem President Polk got the ball rolling. Now that Trump is doing it, it is somehow bad but so is everything else he does for the unhinged left.
REASON: Can you not remove these profane childish comments? Or perhaps remove the commenters who seem to have nothing except insults and profanity to add to the discussion.
LMFAO MORE WISHCASTING, LOSER? AHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA 😀 😀 😀
Lmao your impotent wishcasting is delicious and your destructive desires make me very happy, as they indicate that you have lost and are powerless. Mmmmmmmm sooooo gooooood 😀 😀 😀
AHAHAHAHAHAAAAA THATS TRULY A DESIRE FOR YOU OMG SEEING YOU EXPRESSING THAT FEEELS SOOOOO GOOOD YOU PATHETIC LOSER OMG AHAHAHAHHAAHAAAAAAA CK is forgotten and unimpactful and wont be missed aahahahaahahhahaa looooooserrrr 😀 😀 😀
Is that what it felt like to you, back then? Lmfaaaaooo 😀 😀 😀
You keep saying 'defeated' defeated in what?
We're having fun watching you all crow over winning a race that the Republicans only entered as a token.
And laughing as you act as if a Democrat replacing a Democrat is a win.
You make a compelling argument as always in defense of your position.