No, It Wasn't Ironic That Second Amendment Advocate Charlie Kirk Was Shot
All liberty involves tradeoffs. So does repressing liberty.
Inevitably, in the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, some observers looked at the problem of a radicalized young man who drove hundreds of miles to plan and carry out the murder of somebody whose political views he abhorred and concluded that the problem is the tool used by the assassin. A few of those observers even gloat that Kirk was shot after defending the right to keep and bear arms when he discussed the tradeoffs inherent in balancing the benefits and dangers of liberty.
Much political discourse was already stupid, but too many people want to make it even stupider.
After Kirk's assassination, amidst widespread mourning over his death as well as despicable celebrations of the conservative activist's murder, came a spate of malicious chuckling over the nature of the crime. Charlie Kirk, you see, was shot with a rifle, and he'd once called shooting deaths the price of keeping the Second Amendment. How ironic!
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
Charlie Kirk on Liberty and Tradeoffs
Except that's really not what Kirk said.
I had a lot of disagreements with Kirk, but this wasn't one. His comment about the Second Amendment and deaths was part of a larger discussion about the dangers inherent in liberty. He emphasized that you can't have the good parts of being free without also suffering the negative consequences.
Asked at an April 5, 2023, Turning Point USA event about the Second Amendment, Kirk answered:
"The Second Amendment is not about hunting. I love hunting. The Second Amendment is not even about personal defense. That is important. The Second Amendment is there, God forbid, so that you can defend yourself against a tyrannical government….Now, we must also be real. We must be honest with the population. Having an armed citizenry comes with a price, and that is part of liberty. Driving comes with a price—50,000, 50,000, 50,000 people die on the road every year. That's a price. You get rid of driving, you'd have 50,000 less auto fatalities. But we have decided that the benefit of driving—speed, accessibility, mobility, having products, services—is worth the cost of 50,000 people dying on the road."
"You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I am—I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal," he added.
Kirk might also have mentioned that free speech is also dangerous. Unfettered speech is important to the function of a free and open society. But protecting speech risks the popularization of vicious, totalitarian ideas like those of Karl Marx and Adolf Hitler. It runs the danger of the radicalization of lost souls who encounter bad ideas, embrace them, engrave "Hey fascist! Catch!" lyrics from the antifascist song "Bella Ciao" and gaming memes on rifle cartridges, and then murder their political opponents.
Undoubtedly, the same people would have found that equally ironic.
And Kirk's larger point is true across the board. Any freedom that allows us to live to our fullest, any restriction on state intervention into our lives, can be abused by the worst among us. Evil people are shielded by Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure, as are good people. We give up such protections at our peril in hopes of rooting out evil.
What peril? Kirk touched on this in his 2023 talk when he said, "the Second Amendment is there, God forbid, so that you can defend yourself against a tyrannical government" and noted that "governments tend to get tyrannical."
Yes, freedom can be abused by bad people. But if we can't trust everybody to use freedom wisely, why would we trust people in government to wisely administer a more restrictive regime by which they get to disarm the public, censor speech, invade homes at will, and more? Those who seek coercive power over others by working in government are at least as prone to abuse their position as is anybody else.
There are tradeoffs not just in liberty, but in restricting liberty. Given that we have a natural right to be free, and that Kirk was correct to say that all governments tend towards tyranny, we're better off trusting in more freedom, rather than less. That's a recognition that there are no risk-free options.
The Call for Gun Control Gets Even Dumber
But the focus on Kirk's death by gunshot gets even stupider. The conservative activist was reportedly killed with a single round from a Mauser Model 98 .30-06 caliber bolt-action rifle. The Mauser 98 was originally designed in the 19th century for military use but has long since been largely supplanted in that role by semi-automatic and then select-fire weapons, most using less-powerful cartridges (yes, the most common cartridges used in AR- and AK-type weapons are generally less-powerful than other cartridges used for hunting).
But the old design remains ideal for hunting large game animals. It is accurate if properly zeroed, has a longer effective range than many modern military weapons, and cartridges such as the .30-06 are likely to cleanly drop an animal with a single shot. That's why many of the old rifles were adapted, sometimes with modifications, for hunting. Modern bolt-action hunting rifles used for stalking deer, boar, elk, and the like are variations on designs that go back to the Mauser 98 and similar rifles.
That is, the hunting rifle allegedly used to murder Charlie Kirk is an example of the only type of firearm gun control advocates say they don't want to ban or restrict. No major law advocated in recent years, such as magazine capacity limits or bans on semi-automatic weapons, would have affected it.
Blame Culture?
Some observers are upset that the left—the radical fringe of it, anyway—is blamed for Kirk's murder when Tyler Robinson's family is conservative, Mormon, culturally traditional, and comfortable with firearms. But the Robinson family didn't shoot Charlie Kirk. Tyler Robinson committed this crime after he adopted views very different from those of his family, embraced the use of violence against political foes, and inscribed antifascist slogans on his ammunition before taking a fatal shot.
If we're going to delve into culture wars, we could mention the unfortunate use of speech in the social media cesspool. That's where Robinson was seemingly radicalized, where people celebrated Kirk's death, and where a few even called for more targets. But that's part of the tradeoffs of liberty.
If we're all to be free, and we should be, some will use freedom in repulsive ways. We should punish those who push action to criminal extremes. But all liberty can be misused. And not only are the risks of liberty worth the dangers, they're also far less perilous than granting governments enhanced powers that they'll inevitably abuse.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please to post comments
The rainbow cult activist was a trouble young man. Not sure if there is a tranifesto.
Those celebrating Kirk’s assassination on social media and who have subsequently let go don’t get it.
There won't be a transifesto. It's pretty clear that this was coordinated by the Armed Queers cell in Utah on Discord, because there was a whole bunch of messages the day before saying that "something big" was going to happen to Kirk. We'll see if his furfag troon "roommate" throws everyone under the bus to save his own sphincter or not. The group deleted their X account after the killing happened.
Some of these freaks have got to be sweating now that they know their Discord logs are being read from a black site.
Had to google ‘furfag troon’. It’s so hard to keep up with all the new slang. In any event, that group, along with antifa (related?j should be declared terror organization.
Waaaaahhhhh, the mean boy hurt my feelings waaaaahhhh, :((( he needs to be called a terrorist hes meeeaaaannn waaaaaahhhh
Erika Kirk actually seems pretty happy and content in public. She probably got herself someone who terrorized her good now that the other guy is finally gone.
"The Left just blew all their trust.
Normies see a nice guy doing a simple debate, not a political speech, not leading a rally or a riot, getting gunned down in 4k.
Then they see a bunch of people, even their friends, cheer and clap and dance. They ask why.
"Well, you see, he… was evil!" they cry gleefully, eyes feral.
The normie just stares at the screen. A clean cut guy with a microphone is bleeding out horrifically. It reminds them of the scared young blonde they saw bleeding out on the subway just a few days ago. A question forms.
"What did he do that made him evil?" they ask.
"He SAID things!" they scream back, a bit of spittle flying from their mouths.
"So you are happy they murdered him....for talking?"
"YESSSS!!!! You get it now!" claps their kids' teacher, their pilot, or their doctor.
The normie is horrified. Someone they trust their kids to, their health to, or their safety is acting like a foaming, raging lunatic who wants people dead because they said something they didn't like.
Do you realize how this comes across?"
Democrats don’t. They’re delusional feral things.
The culturally curb stomped think their hurt feelings are more important than health care, job security and grocery bills.
Carry on. It will be delicious.
abhorrently sick
The paranoid perception of right wingers is really interesting to observe, they rarely talk about how they really see others (i think because their thought process is generally not based on empathy). Please continue. Please give us more of your warped inner world.
https://x.com/Babygravy9/status/1967499116402934166
Hyde nails it.
What he nail is the delusions and hatred by the MAGAs.
Damn, you’re both delusional and retarded, Molly. Hyde says nothing like you claim.
Making sense is white supremacy.
And a world without mean people (i.e. white men) is a progressive fantasy.
And YOU, Vile One, Slut, Whore, Servant, Serpent, and Slurp-Pants of the Evil One, are HELPING by repeatedly and re-sluttedly urging Your Political Enemas to cummit suicide? Tell us HOW this helps ANYONE!
Reason is leftist and celebrates his death. Therefore this article does not exist.
Just so fucking broken.
Excellent article.
"You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I am—I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal," he added.
Charlie was brave to say this truth in an idiotic world. It's a tragic shame if some nutjob took this as a challenge to murder rather than a challenge to oppose authoritarianism.
It's also a tragic shame that this tragedy is bringing out the worst in so many instead of heeding Charlie's advice about the price and risks that come with freedom.
Dude, the article contradicts the narrative that tReason is leftist and celebrates the guy's murder. Either the narrative is wrong or the article does not exist. Because the narrative is never wrong, the article does not exist. That means it's a figment of the imagination.
That's OK. My comment doesn't exist either.
Youre so fucking broken too.
Always about trying to denigrate your enemies.
You, sarc, and jeff are all from the same cloth.
4 posts between you and sarc. 3 retarded strawman arguments. Grow the fuck up.
Yeah. I'm broken. OK
LOL. Mr. Kettle, thou art black.
You and your democrat fellow travelers here are nasty, lying Marxists. We’ve all had enough. So if anything, we coddle you.
Feel free to thank us for our kindness.
Out-competed, immobile, impotent right-wing reject say what?
Calling you out for your retarded framing just hurts you so badly.
Why is it that regulars here are so fucking nasty to each other? It sets a real bad example, and makes us look bad to non-libertarians browsing the site.
Oh, did someone in here say that..... maybe libertarianism can have negative outcomes too? Careful there, i hear that some of those nutjobs own pitchforks.
The so-called libertarians on this website must be shut ins in real life, if you go by the things they verbalize here.
Charlie was brave to say this truth in an idiotic world. It's a tragic shame if some nutjob took this as a challenge to murder rather than a challenge to oppose authoritarianism.
The problem with this statement is that guys like the shooter think they are opposing authoritarianism with these types of actions.
It just goes to show that these types of crazy indoctrinated morons wouldn't know authoritarianism if it punched them in the face.
Of all the people they could have killed for being an authoritarian, Charlie Kirk wasn't it. Sure, he was a Christian conservative but unlike a whole lot of those types he actually practiced his faith and didn't hate the sinner, merely the sin. That is remarkable in todays world, I think.
I might not have agreed with Kirk on a variety of things, but I respected him for living his values that harmed no one.
Yes. 100% agree with all you said.
You have seen the term Christian nationalism a lot in media posts about Kirk. The same narrative that reason has often pushed.
Where has Reason pushed that narrative?
Agreed QB.
According to Haidt, liberals are fixated on "harm reduction". And women (and soy boys) have less tolerance for risk, and promote safety, often to extremes. They strive for a controlled society more like a preschool, and are eager to serve as our nannies.
The rank-and-file may want Singapore-style justice. (some of them actually spoke out in favor of warrantless sweeps of public housing projects)
The leadership has no interest in public safety, as they support soft-on-crime policies.
they are soft on crime policies so that people will call for action of the worst order. is it a conspiracy then why be soft on crime and like Newsom close prisons just to close prisons and i see others are looking to follow that path. When all actions lead to a forseable outcome then it is no longer a conspiracy
Didnt have JD as the best, most rational article here. Good work jd.
Whereas the British have largely banned firearms, they now a have a problem with violence with bladed weapons and are now toying with banning knives.
The problem is violent people. You cannot ban all weapons those people can use. The problem being the Social Left really does not have a solution for the problem of malevolent people.
Don't forget acid attacks.
And fresh fruit. Not to mention pointed sticks.
you can ban all you like people will still kill be it with stones or as Samson who killed a thousand with the jaw bone of an ass. who knew jaw bones were so deadly, outlaw Donkeys
Last I checked, knives are banned in prison and people still get stabbed.
At what point will teaching or learning martial arts be outlawed since those hands and fists must be registered lethal weapons I wonder.
The UK murder rate is about 1/5 that of the US. Something they are doing is working.
It was something they DIDN'T do in the past—they didn't import millions of black Africans.
Ah yes, when in doubt fall back on racism.
Yes, Molly, we know you Democrats do.
Ah yes, when in doubt, fall back on dismissing facts as racism.
Standard lefty practice. The homicide rates among non-hispanic whites is about as low as any nation in white Europe despite or because of all our guns. It's all the lefty ethnic and racial groups that commit most of the homicides in the U.S. Realistically, it's not the guns, it's the lefties.
Molly, I think you misspelled "realism". Realism is spelled r-E-A-L-i-s-m, not r-A-C-i-s-m. It's an EAL not AC. "Realism" is correct spelling, not "racism".
No, it isn’t you vapid faggot. The UK uses different methods to compile their stats. For example, a violent crime isn’t included if no one is convicted for it. If the FBI removed all crimes that were either unsolved, or the perp walked, then our numbers would be much lower too.
And of course, if we got rid of all you democrats, violent crime would barely exist.
^^Good point.
It's the Democratic constituency that commits most of the homicides in the U.S.
I think gang members are mostly apolitical.
Charlie Kirk, you see, was shot with a rifle, and he'd once called shooting deaths the price of keeping the Second Amendment.
Except that's really not what Kirk said.
Charlie Kirk, as quoted by this author immediately after he wrote that:
"You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I am—I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal," he added.
Tuccille, that really is what Charlie said there.
And yes, it fits one of the many definitions of irony that someone was killed with a gun, with no indication yet that it was purchased or possessed illegally, who had said it was worth the "cost" of having "some gun deaths" in order to have the protection of the Second Amendment. It's a similar kind of irony as when the "unsinkable" Titanic sunk.
If people want to believe that a heavily armed population is necessary for protecting freedom, they have to accept that this means that more people that would use a gun to murder others will have access to guns.
As for the merits of Kirk's main argument:
The Second Amendment is not about hunting. I love hunting. The Second Amendment is not even about personal defense. That is important. The Second Amendment is there, God forbid, so that you can defend yourself against a tyrannical government...
I get the instinct behind this, and the appeal to the history of our Revolution. The first shots of the Revolution occurred when British soldiers went to confiscate guns and arrest the leaders after the King had declared Massachusetts to be in a state of rebellion. Seems pretty open and shut, then.
Except that isn't really how the 2nd Amendment reads. Whatever the analysis of the words of the amendment says in Heller, the militia reference has to mean something, if it was included as part of the amendment. Congress is explicitly given power over the Militia. That is why saying, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..." does not fit with the idea that the men that wrote, debated, and voted to ratify the 2nd Amendment, or any other citizen that read it, would think that they were enshrining a right that would allow them to rise up against the government they had just created, if it got out of their control. In my mind, that doesn't make sense because of the fact that any words written in the Constitution would not be respected by a government that far out of the people's control anyway.
Once government gets so tyrannical that armed resistance is the only way to restore the people's rights, all of the other rights people have would have been long since taken from them. Violent resistance is the last line of defense of liberty, and it only becomes necessary after everything else has failed.
The choice then is whether the cost of higher rates of gun deaths really is "prudent" when having an armed populace to resist a tyrannical government is a last stop you never want to have to use. The cost of protecting free speech is that some people will say things you don't like. The cost of protecting a free press is that some news media outlets will be biased. The cost of protecting the rights of all citizens to vote, to be able to choose their government, is that the winners could implement policies you don't like.
The costs of these first lines of defense against tyranny are far lower than the cost of this last line of defense.
You do realize that most of the people that migrated to America during the colonial period came from countries that didn't allow them to own firearms back home, right? The whole point of the 2nd Amendment has been self-defense and national security from the very beginning.
The founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time. The left started dismantling that in the 1960s.
And spare us the whole "well-regulated" argument. There's dozens of state and federal laws on the books that restrict and even prohibit firearem ownership. When the left says "well-regulated," what they mean is "I want my enemies disarmed so I can destroy them if they get uppity."
The founders were thinking about armed uprisings because they were literally in the middle of one. In fact, that was one of the reasons they decided to include the 2nd amendment. They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government.
This is one of the reasons that bans on, say, machine guns run contra to the second amendment. Their actual intention was for individuals to own the weapons of war. There is no way around that.
"They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government."
This is bull. They put no ability for the people to recall politicians once elected nor any other direct democracy in the Constitution. Why would they skip that stuff and go directly to armed revolt?
Wrong. Article I, section 5 of the United States Constitution provides that "Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member."
There's recall votes and of course impeachment.
The second amendment is in place to protect the rights of individuals and the constitution and as a mechanism to thwart tyranny of government.
Neutral, what evidence can you cite that "the second amendment is in place" as "a mechanism to thwart tyranny of government." Please see my following response to BYOBD (refuting your assertion).
Impeachment
Also an armed citizenry
From Federalist 29 "if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
https://nationallegalfoundation.org/historical-documents/federalist-papers/federalist-no-29-concerning-the-militia/
Federalist 46
Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people.
https://nationallegalfoundation.org/historical-documents/federalist-papers/federalist-no-46-the-influence-of-the-state-and-federal-governments-compared/
BYOBD, you're right that they "were thinking about armed uprisings" but you're wrong that it's "because they were literally in the middle of one." The Revolutionary War fighting ended in 1781 and ended officially (by treaty) in 1783. Our Constitution wasn't even contemplated until 1787. The Second Amendment wasn't written until 1789. But Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion were on their minds by then. So when they wrote the Second Amendment they definitely did not intend to encourage people to think they had the right to rise up in rebellion against the U.S. government.
You're also wrong about how they were thinking about armed uprisings. "They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian," but they clearly did not want "people to have the ability to fight back against their own government." The original Constitution was quite clear about this.
Article I pointedly authorized Congress "To provide for calling forth the Militia" to "suppress Insurrections." It even provided that the venerable "Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus" can "be suspended" in "Cases of Rebellion" when "the public Safety may require it."
Article III defined "Treason against the United States" as "levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." Article I emphasized that Senators and Representatives were not "privileged from Arrest" in cases of "Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace." Article II emphasized that "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason" or "other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."
Those things are not in opposition to one another. Rebellion can be justified, or not, and the founders provided options for both.
The idea that they didn't mean for people to potentially fight back against a tyrannical government is absurd, since they had just done so and they even wrote as much elsewhere.
Feel free to read things like the Federalist papers if you are unclear on that point. You can start with #29.
BYODB, what evidence can you cite for your contention that "the founders" provided for "Rebellion" against the U.S. government? That simply makes no sense at all. Would you go to the trouble and expense of running for office back then only to tell people they have the right to use arms against you if they think you're behaving like a tyrant? I find it hard to believe that anybody (even today) is that foolish. I'm certain that people who just finished a war--and who were surrounded by people accustomed to killing to oppose tyranny--were far from that foolish.
Your view is clearly and directly contrary to the plain text of our Constitution (which I quoted for you) and its plain meaning and its history. In addition, the First Amendment expressly said the opposite of your contention. It emphasized "the right of the people" to "assemble" only when we do so "peaceably."
Article I even expressly denied actual states the power you contend the U.S. gave to mere individuals. "No State" may "engage in War" "without the Consent of Congress" "unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
The Second Amendment was meant (primarily, I think) to secure the right of white men to keep and bear (and more importantly, use) arms (1) in southern states against enslaved people (especially against uprisings of enslaved people) and (2) in southern states and western territories against Indians, the Spanish and the French.
BTW, I misspoke, above. The Whiskey Rebellion was 1791-1794. The Newburgh Conspiracy occurred (and was defused by Washington) in 1783, Shay's Rebellion was 1786-1787. Fries's Rebellion was 1799-1800.
Federalist 46
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people."
https://nationallegalfoundation.org/historical-documents/federalist-papers/federalist-no-46-the-influence-of-the-state-and-federal-governments-compared/
BOYBD, just save us the trouble of trying to read your mind and save us the time of searching for what you think supports your assertion. What in The Federalist No. 29 do you think supports your assertion that our Constitution was designed to give individuals the power to overthrow the U.S. government by force of arms?
You don't have to read my mind, you could read the materials. Since you have no desire to go look at primary sources, I doubt anything I say would change your mind.
BYOBD, don't hide behind more obvious falsehoods ("you have no desire to go look at primary sources"). There is no more relevant primary source than our Constitution. I've not only read it, I quoted the relevant parts for you. And as I said, I have studied much of The Federalist Papers. I've just never seen anything even remotely resembling what you pretended to find. So I asked you to show me where to look. Just copy the text and paste it here if you really do believe what you're trying to make us think.
The very fact you question this proves you have no idea what you're talking about.
I might take you seriously if you simply disagreed with the founders on that point, but the fact you point blank refuse to acknowledge what they literally said on the subject makes you deeply unserious.
BYODB, as I said below, you lack the courage to either admit your mistake or try to prove that you're not just plain lying (repeatedly) to try to distract from your first falsehood.
You haven't even tried to show me anything with which I could have "simply disagreed." I clearly don't "refuse to acknowledge what they literally said on the subject." I showed you what they said that supports my position, and I repeatedly asked you to show me what they said. You "refuse" to show me anything except more lies by you.
BYODB, you might want to actually look at a few more of Federalist Papers and actually think about their point. The early Federalist Papers were largely consumed with explaining how our Constitution would prevent or the U.S. government would respond to the kind of armed individuals you pretend the Second Amendment somehow empowered.
Federalist No. 6 (Concerning Dangers from Dissensions Between the States) even directly addressed the then-real threat of "civil war."
See also Federalist No. 7 (more Concerning Dangers from Dissensions Between the States); No. 8 (The Consequences of Hostilities Between the States); No. 9 (The Utility of the Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection); No. 10 (more about The Utility of the Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection).
From Federalist 29
"if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
https://nationallegalfoundation.org/historical-documents/federalist-papers/federalist-no-29-concerning-the-militia/
BYODB, the most relevant part of The Federalist 29 that I found was this one sentence: When "there [is] an army to be made use of as the engine of despotism, what need of the militia?" Even back then, they clearly understood that even the militia of an actual state could not stand up to an actual army. They were not deluded fools like the people who think the Second Amendment somehow secures the right of angry, irrational men to kill or remove U.S. government employees or overthrow the U.S. government (with the overwhelming power of its resources) by force of arms.
In Federalist No. 29, Hamilton ridiculed things like you said as "the inflammatory ravings of incendiaries or distempered enthusiasts." He even concluded Federalist No. 29 by emphasizing the same points as the language that I quoted for you from our Constitution:
"In times of insurrection [ ] it would be natural and proper that the militia of a neighboring State should be marched into another" precisely "to guard the republic against the violence of faction or sedition."
From Federalist 29
"if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
https://nationallegalfoundation.org/historical-documents/federalist-papers/federalist-no-29-concerning-the-militia/
Federalist 46
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people."
https://nationallegalfoundation.org/historical-documents/federalist-papers/federalist-no-46-the-influence-of-the-state-and-federal-governments-compared/
They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government.
Is this supported by anything other than your assertion that it is so? Or are a you a spirit medium that can ask people dead for 200 years what they thought about the 2nd Amendment?
Red, it's not even close to true that the "founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time." See my comment to BOYBD, below.
Aside from what they actually included in the Constitution, there's a very particular uprising that southern states feared more than anything else in the world (even the wrath of God): uprisings by enslaved people.
The Second Amendment was meant (primarily, I think) to secure the right of white men to keep and bear (and more importantly, use) arms (1) in southern states against enslaved people and (2) in southern states and western territories against Indians, the Spanish and the French.
The Second Amendment was meant (primarily, I think) to secure the right of white men to keep and bear (and more importantly, use) arms (1) in southern states against enslaved people and (2) in southern states and western territories against Indians, the Spanish and the French.
Oh, a CRT believer. Everything you say can be summarily dismissed now.
Red, are you even thinking at all about what you said? "Everything" that I "say can be summarily dismissed now"? Much of what I said was said by the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution. It was the actual text of our Constitution.
You misrepresented that the "founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time." I proved that you clearly were wrong. Even among the people you contended had "common cultural consensus" there was the Newburgh Conspiracy (defused by Washington) in 1783, Shay's Rebellion in 1786-1787, Fries's Rebellion in 1799-1800 and the Whiskey Rebellion in 1791-1794.
If you think I'm wrong, prove me wrong. It's that simple. Pick anything I wrote and try to prove me wrong. There's no need to go to the extraordinary lengths of thinking up mere ad hominem attacks.
Red, copious evidence further established the clear falsity of your misrepresentation that the "founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time."
Have you ever heard of the duel between the sitting Vice President and the former Secretary of the Treasury? Do you have any idea why they were shooting at each other? Have you heard of the treason trial of a (then) recent past Vice President? Do you have any idea why he was on trial?
Can you identify any fact that should give us any reason to question my belief that the Second Amendment was meant primarily to secure the right of white men to keep and bear (and more importantly, use) arms (1) in southern states against enslaved people and (2) in southern states and western territories against Indians, the Spanish and the French?
I'd like a cite to points 1 & 2 as being subjects discussed specifically in the process of drafting and ratification of the 2A.
The obsession about citizen arms being held to fight the US government is silly. The right is preserved as a defense of home and homeland, against threats foreign or domestic. The policy reason of "defense against a corrupt US government" is subsumed within those broader self preservative civil rights. Specific mention in founding texts of revolt against a theoretically oppressive US is irrelevant, as the greater policy of arms to protect home and homeland controls all sorts of dangers or threats.
Grifhunter, see my quotation from Federalist No. 43 in this thread. Read a little about the insurgencies of their time. Read how guns and militias actually were used in the 1780's. The first time I encountered an insightful description about them in in slave states was in Hamilton by Chernow, p. 19. It was graphic.
You will find it more insightful to learn more about life back then. Which do you think is more insightful, somebody merely talking about who to fight or kill and how to fight or kill them or people actually doing the fighting and killing? The point of the discussion of the First and Second Amendments wasn't to catalogue all the ways people could use words or swords.
But see the multiple other Federalist Papers I cited emphasizing that the point of our Constitution was to mitigate the threat of armed uprisings, not to create the expectation of being able to use arms against government. The primary point of our Constitution was to establish that the people are sovereign and all public officials are public servants. Our Constitution made our public servants our representatives, not our rulers. Many of them must be chosen by election (and they can be removed in elections), We can criticize them all we want. The point of all those things was to replace military campaigns with political campaigns, replace force of arms with force of logic and words. With words (including votes) is how our Constitution permits us to reform or replace our public servants, not with guns.
How 'bout the free states? Are you saying they didn't care about a right to keep and bear arms in the free states? Your doing a whole lot of shoehorning.
Grifhunter, re; your request for info re: southerners' dread of uprisings by enslaved people, see https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-29-02-0405 (Thomas Jefferson to St. George Tucker, 28 August 1797)
“But if something is not done, and soon done, we shall be the murderers of our own children. The ‘Murmura, venturos nautis prodentia ventos’ has already reached us; the revolutionary storm now sweeping the globe will be upon us, and happy if we make timely provision to give it an easy passage over our land. From the present state of things in Europe and America the day which begins our combustion must be near at hand, and only a single spark is wanting to make that day tomorrow.”
How 'bout northerners? Were northerners afraid of slave uprisings?
What evidence do you have for that? They didn't necessarily need firearms to subjugate slaves. They could use a whip and call the local sheriff if the slaves rebelled.
Even if they used arms against the Indians, Spanish and French, doesn't mean they didn't want enough arms in the hands of the people to be able to resist the federal government also. See my references cited above.
"You're" not "your".
Red, regarding your misconception that "founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time," you might want to consider some actual facts and actual evidence. See, e.g., the first US census. https://www.archives.gov/research/census/1790.
The headings distinguished between "white" people, "All other free persons" (free blacks) and "Slaves."
Virginia (by far the most populous state) had 747,610 residents, of which 40% were black: 292,627 were enslaved and 12,806 were free.
South Carolina had 249,073 residents, of which almost 44% were black: 107,094 were enslaved and 1,801 were free.
Maryland had 319,728 residents, of which 1/3 were black: 103,036 were enslaved and 8,043 were free.
Georgia had 82,548 residents, of which more than 1/3 were black: 29,264 were enslaved and 398 were free.
North Carolina had 393,751 residents, of which more than 1/4 were black: 100,572 were enslaved and 4,975 were free.
Individual right to keep arms is not necessary to enforce slavery. The local sheriff could do that, like they would enforce any law. Also enforced by overseers with whips or other weapons.
We they afraid of a slave uprising in Massachusetts? How about New Hampshire? Vermont? Rhode Island? New Jersey? Delaware? Pennsylvania? Were they afraid of a slave uprising in Pennsylvania? How 'bout New York? Were they afraid of a slave uprising in New York?
Hmm...Jack, I wonder what the slave population was in those states.
"were" not "we"
Red, for even more evidence refuting your contention that the "founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time" think about how they vehemently disagreed even about God.
The New England states were Congregationalists. Southern states were mostly Anglican. Some states also had a bunch of Baptists. Many in Maryland were Catholic. Many in Pennsylvania were Quakers.
Have you ever thought about the reason Article VI commanded that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." It was to prevent sectarian oppression and violence.
Red, more readily available evidence refutes your misconception that "founders weren't thinking about an armed uprising back then because there was a common cultural consensus at the time." The early Federalist Papers were largely consumed with concerns about armed conflict. They even directly referred to the threat of "civil war." The Federalist No. 6 (Concerning Dangers from Dissensions Between the States).
See also Federalist No. 7 (more Concerning Dangers from Dissensions Between the States); No. 8 (The Consequences of Hostilities Between the States); No. 9 (The Utility of the Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection); No. 10 (more about The Utility of the Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection).
Between the States, not by slaves within the state.
Who hurt you to make you like this?
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Dunno, but this asshole is a particularly scummy pile of lefty shit:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/561/742/
Municipal respondents maintain that the Second Amendment differs from all of the other provisions of the Bill of Rights because it concerns the right to possess a deadly implement and thus has implications for public safety. Brief for Municipal Respondents 11. And they note that there is intense disagreement on the question whether the private possession of guns in the home increases or decreases gun deaths and injuries. Id., at 11, 13–17.
The right to keep and bear arms, however, is not the only constitutional right that has controversial public safety implications. All of the constitutional provisions that impose restrictions on law enforcement and on the prosecution of crimes fall into the same category. See, e.g., Hudson v. Michigan, 547 U. S. 586, 591 (2006) (“The exclusionary rule generates ‘substantial social costs,’ United States v. Leon, 468 U. S. 897, 907 (1984), which sometimes include setting the guilty free and the dangerous at large”); Barker v. Wingo, 407 U. S. 514, 522 (1972) (reflecting on the serious consequences of dismissal for a speedy trial violation, which means “a defendant who may be guilty of a serious crime will go free”); Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U. S. 436, 517 (1966) (Harlan, J., dissenting); id., at 542 (White, J., dissenting) (objecting that the Court’s rule “[i]n some unknown number of cases … will return a killer, a rapist or other criminal to the streets … to repeat his crime”); Mapp, 367 U. S., at 659. Municipal respondents cite no case in which we have refrained from holding that a provision of the Bill of Rights is binding on the States on the ground that the right at issue has disputed public safety implications.
Your understanding of irony is right in line with Alanis Morissette's. Somebody recognizing the risk something poses doesn't make it ironic that he is killed by said thing. "Jack supported the right to drink alcohol despite the health risks, and last year he was killed by a drunk driver. Irony!"
Hey now, Alanis might be smarter than you give her credit for because a song about irony that doesn't have any irony in it is actually ironic.
Ah, now I get it. That's some multi-dimensional chess there.
Except that I really don't think Alanis understood that she was making a multi-dimensional chess move.
Yeah, honestly I kind of doubt she meant for that either but one has to admit it's still true.
Shit. Now I'm the idiot.
Wizzle, but Kirk certainly wasn't merely "recognizing the risk something poses." Kirk emphatically said, "I think it's worth it. I think it's worth" that "cost." Kirk was specific about the cost he meant: "gun deaths every single year" is the "cost" of having "the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal." Maybe it's not ironic in the strict sense. But there's certainly a certain symmetry to it. Kirk got to die for exactly what he said he thought was "worth it," i.e., "gun deaths every single year."
The article highlighted that Kirk apparently even died for the precise cause for which he thought the Second Amendment was included in our Constitution: "The Second Amendment is there," precisely, "so that you can defend yourself against a tyrannical government." As far as I've been able to ascertain, Kirk's killer thought Kirk was either a tool or a driver of tyrannical government.
Never mind that since they were on a campus Kirk was legally disarmed. That sure did protect him now didn't it.
The 4th amendment has led to many criminals being let go as evidence that was collected was the fruit of the poisonous tree. Would you be in favor of removing 4th amendment protections to make sure those people go to prison instead?
BOYDB, what's your point? Did you think that the Second Amendment meant that guns can be use only against people who are armed? Where did you get that?
Don't try to change the subject to the 4th Amendment. We're talking about the Second Amendment and your pretense that our Constitution was designed to secure the right of people like Kirk's killer to kill people they think are part of tyrannical government.
I'm not changing the subject, it's called an analogy. A particularly apt one, as well, but of course you discount it because it absolutely destroys your argument.
Also, I notice that your entire screed is a strawman. Care to address what was actually said, or does that strain your mind too much?
BYODB, you're clearly trying to change the subject because you can barely even keep up the pretense that you're not lying repeatedly.
As for what you actually said that was obviously false:
"The founders were thinking about armed uprisings because they were literally in the middle of one [in 1787-1789?]. In fact, that was one of the reasons they decided to include the 2nd amendment. They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government."
"Rebellion can be justified, or not, and the founders provided options for both."
I read the relevant primary source (our Constitution) and I copied the relevant portions for you to see exactly what text supported my position. I've also re-read Federalist No. 29. I still cannot find anything even remotely resembling your obvious falsehoods about the meaning of our Constitution.
Projection on top of strawmen, boy your rhetorical skills are looking kind of shaky there.
Are you sure you work for a Seattle law firm?
BYODB, all you're doing is bobbing and weaving and trying to hide. All I'm asking you to do is show me some text of The Federalist Papers that supports your lies (which you lack the courage and integrity to admit were wrong or even attempt to prove were true):
"The founders were thinking about armed uprisings because they were literally in the middle of one [in 1787-1789?]. In fact, that was one of the reasons they decided [in 1789-1791] to include the 2nd amendment. They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government."
"Rebellion can be justified, or not, and the founders provided options for both."
Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it.
Sadly, Madison was proven wrong regarding states being able to fend off a federal force during the civil war but that doesn't lessen their intent to ensure that the people of the United States retained their rights, by force if necessary.
I was wondering about his posts and all the gymnastics in them to avoid the plain English of the amendment or the copious amounts of additional information concerning the founders thoughts on an armed populace. Him being a lawyer makes it all come in to focus.
Designate, you believe BYODB? Why? He made you look foolish. I don't "work for a Seattle law firm." BYODB made that up (just like he made up his obvious falsehoods about our Constitution and our history).
Speaking of "plain English" (as you did) please enlighten us. Please state plainly in plain English what you think the Second Amendment meant to guys with guns today.
Oh, so Amicus Law in your signature is just there for...?
Actually, him saying that made me curious since you hadn’t mentioned it in any of your posts, so I clicked on your name and it linked to an email @amicuslaw.
BYODB, I can't respond to your most recent falsehood above, so I'll respond here.
You say, "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
I say stop trying to change the subject and show us what facts and evidence (not more of your wild-eyed speculation) established that the Second Amendment was designed to secure the right of the "people" to use firearms "to fight back against their own government" and "the founders provided options for" actual "Rebellion" by people using firearms.
BYODB, I can't respond to your most recent falsehood above, so I'll respond here.
You say, "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
I say stop trying to change the subject and show us what facts and evidence (not more of your wild-eyed speculation) established that the Second Amendment was designed to secure the right of the "people" to use firearms "to fight back against their own government" and "the founders provided options for" actual "Rebellion" by people using firearms.
Regarding "the right of the people" to "assemble," the First Amendment clearly limited such right to doing so "peaceably." Is it your theory that immediately after doing that (in literally the next sentence of our Constitution), the Second Amendment secured the right of the people to assemble with firearms to actually "wage war" on the U.S. government? Does your position actually make any sense to you? If so, please explain how.
BYODB, you said "Sadly," secessionists were "wrong regarding states being able to fend off a federal force during the civil war." What about secessionists failing to rip apart our Union (and effectively rip up our Constitution) made you sad?
Then Kirk died heroically. He knew the risks, but determined that the risk was worth it, and upheld his principles under risk of death. He could have spoken from behind a Lexan shield, but didn't. Maybe that was foolish to not utilize one. But he knew the risks and upheld moral principles. That's heroic.
Wizzle, Kirk said even more that revealed the symmetry between his own words and his own death. On The Charlie Kirk Show in 2023 he advocated (at least) buying and actively bearing arms in public because "You have a government that hates you. You have a traitor as the president. Buy weapons, I keep on saying that. Buy weapons. Buy ammo. If you go into a public place, bring a gun with you." See the penultimate link in the article above (warning re: people who "celebrated Kirk's death").
This just goes to show that people still don't understand what irony is.
JasonT20, thank you for your insights. I agree that "the militia reference has to mean something." See my response to BYOBD, below. The people in power definitely did not want to encourage common people to think they had the right to use arms against the people in power. I'm certain that is the reason they prefaced the right with the admonition about a "well regulated Militia" and what is actually "necessary to the security of a free State."
No one in their right mind would say (or think that the people in power actually said), effectively, "If you think I'm abusing my official power tyrannically, you have the right to use firearms to unseat me." Much more important than "militia" or "free State" are the concepts of being "well regulated" and "necessary" to our "security." Even the First Amendment expressly emphasized "the right of the people" to "assemble" only when we do so "peaceably."
Just as wrong here as you are above. It seems you are wholly uninformed on the justifications for the 2nd amendment, which were discussed at length in many surviving documents from that period of time.
Some of which, such as the Federalist Papers, you should be familiar with if you're going to opine something contrary to what was clearly written by Madison and even Hamilton.
BYOBD, show us any of "the justifications for the 2nd amendment, which were discussed at length in many surviving documents from that period of time" that you think support your presumption or pretense that our Constitution was designed to give angry, irrational guys with guns the "right" to overthrow the U.S. government by force of arms.
I am familiar with The Federalist Papers. I've studied a good many of them. I've never seen anything even remotely resembling what you want us to think you found. They're available online, so show us by coping and pasting here the text that you're saying supports your assertion that our Constitution was designed to give angry, irrational guys with guns the right and the power to kill or remove anyone in national government or overthrow the U.S. government by force of arms.
I already gave you at least one document to go read, get back to us once you've read at least the federalist papers. If you can't be bothered to read primary sources, you are not truly interested in the subject and are just looking to argue from a place of ignorance.
BYODB, don't hide behind even more obvious falsehoods (I "can't be bothered to read primary sources" and I am "not truly interested in the subject" and I am "just looking to argue from a place of ignorance"). And don't hide behind vague allusions to a document that consists of multiple single-spaced pages. The Federalist Papers are available on-line (https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/full-text), so if you really do believe what you want us to think, then simply copy the relevant text and paste it here.
I extended the same courtesy to you. I read the relevant primary source (our Constitution) and I copied the relevant portions for you to see exactly what text supported my position. I've also re-read Federalist No. 29. I still cannot find anything even remotely resembling your pretense that our Constitution was designed to give angry, irrational guys with guns the right to kill or remove anyone in the U.S. government or overthrow the U.S. government by force of arms. So now, all I'm asking is that you do as much for us as I already did for you. Relieve us of our "ignorance."
Since you misrepresent what I say, it's little surprise that you can't find answers to the things you wish I had said.
Also, the only thing you have actually cited so far is your own opinion as shown below:
The Second Amendment was meant (primarily, I think) to secure the right of white men to keep and bear (and more importantly, use) arms (1) in southern states against enslaved people (especially against uprisings of enslaved people) and (2) in southern states and western territories against Indians, the Spanish and the French.
Riddle me where you found that in the constitution. The fact you wrote that while also claiming to have read and studied the federalist papers is revealing in and of itself. You can argue the point further, but there is little point since you are quite obviously a liar.
BYODB, you lied again (knowingly misrepresenting I am "quite obviously a liar"). If it's so obvious to you, then show us any facts establishing how anything I wrote was even false.
At least try to provide some useful information. As for what you actually said that was obviously false:
"The founders were thinking about armed uprisings because they were literally in the middle of one [in 1787-1789?]. In fact, that was one of the reasons they decided [in 1789-1791] to include the 2nd amendment. They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government."
"Rebellion can be justified, or not, and the founders provided options for both."
I showed your contentions were false by quoting multiple provisions of our Constitution (in Articles I, II, III and Amendment I). I even quoted from your own purported source (Federalist No. 29). Unlike you, I didn't lie about finding anything in the Constitution or in The Federalist Papers that obviously isn't there.
If you want evidentiary support for my belief about the primary purpose of the Second Amendment, look at the info I provided above from the census of 1790. You also might try reading some history written about who the early Americans actually used guns against between 1786 and 1800.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950), (1743-1826)
Grifhunter, Jefferson was a popular populist and a consummate politician. He had a penchant for saying things that appealed to common people but which made no sense. Of all Jefferson's famous statements about violence, the following should be borne in mind the most. About the French Revolution, Jefferson said "rather than it should have failed, I would have seen half the earth desolated." That's not the thinking of a person anyone should want to follow regarding the meaning of the Second Amendment.
It's very easy to say and think what Jefferson said (which you quoted). But the devil is in the details. Every revolution, uprising, assassination and many other criminal acts prove my point. Who decides what is "tyranny in government"?
The presumption or pretense that the Second Amendment replaced everything and everyone in our Constitution (legislators, executive officials and judges) with the "reason" of an angry mob or an angry loner makes no sense. We have a real example right now. It makes no sense to think that all the people who wrote and ratified our original Constitution or the Bill of Rights wanted to give the power to someone like Kirk's killer to decide when nothing else in our Constitution mattered except what you say or imply the Second Amendment meant.
Grifhunter, the primary problem with the presumption or pretense that the Second Amendment put all the powers of government somehow into the hands of a mob or a man angry about perceived tyranny is that it makes those angry, likely irrational people the legislators, executives and judges of everything relevant. That is exactly what ALL the founders expressly opposed. See, e.g., Federalist No. 47, which included even more than the following:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many" is "the very definition of tyranny." “[T]the preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct."
All the people who wrote or ratified our Constitution expressly opposed the accumulation of powers that you presume the Second Amendment meant to secure. They used our Constitution (the supreme law of the land) to require the separation of the 3 powers into 3 distinct departments.
BYODB, after you consider the population figures in the 1790 census, you might also consider more of the Federalist Papers. See, e.g., No. 43 in which Madison addressed the tremendous danger posed by the massive numbers of enslaved people "abounding in some of the States, who, during the calm of regular government, are sunk below the level of men; but who, in the tempestuous scenes of civil violence, may emerge into the human character, and give a superiority of strength to any party with which they may associate themselves."
BYODB, how did I "misrepresent what [you] say"?
You said, "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
You also said, "Sadly, Madison was proven wrong regarding states being able to fend off a federal force during the civil war." Do you mean that you think the Second Amendment secured the right of southerners to wage war on the US? Do you mean that you think the Second Amendment secured the right of Booth to murder President Lincoln?
I said, "I still cannot find anything even remotely resembling your pretense that our Constitution was designed to give angry, irrational guys with guns the right to kill or remove anyone in the U.S. government or overthrow the U.S. government by force of arms."
Are you denying that guys with guns would have to be angry and irrational to think they could "wage war" successfully against the US government? If not, then how do you think I misrepresented what you said?
It’s not anyone else’s fault that you idiots don’t understand basic sentence structure or what a prefatory or dependent clause are.
Designate, in plain English what do you think the Second Amendment means for guys with guns today? Enlighten us with your wisdom.
Please also help me understand whether you think the Second Amendment secured the right of Kirk's killer to kill Kirk with a gun (assuming he thought Kirk was a tool or driver of authoritarian tyranny). If you didn't think that, why didn't you think that if you buy what BYODB is selling?
I’ll answer your second question first. Clearly the second amendment does convey that the killer had a right to purchase or otherwise obtain an arm (the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed), but seeing as Charlie was not a politician and did not possess in any way a means of exercising tyrannical power, the killer could not possibly be justified in thinking such, or using said means to eliminate the threat. So BYODB’s point in y’all’s discussion upthread that the 2A inherently allows for armed conflict with a tyrannical government, whether foreign or domestic, (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong BYODB) in this regard is moot.
As to what the Second Amendment means for people with guns today, it means just what it meant back then: Militias are necessary to keep the state secure. As such, the people have a right to keep and bear arms, and that right shall not be infringed. (Note that state is not capitalized, so obviously they did not mean the security of the government itself, but rather the body politic, which includes all citizens). Now you could try to make the argument that Militias aren’t necessary given the bloated size of our military, I would probably disagree, but you could try. However, even if you remove that prefatory clause, the rest of the statement remains unchanged. Like I said, this is basic stuff.
Designate, your reiteration of the words of the Second Amendment ("Militias are necessary to keep the state secure. As such, the people have a right to keep and bear arms, and that right shall not be infringed.") did not answer my question. What do those words mean today to guys with guns.
Do you think the Second Amendment secures the right of states to have militias or do you think secures the rights of individuals or both?
Do you think they have only the right to keep and the right to bear empty firearms? Do you think they have a right to use them in any way? Do you think they have a right to keep or bear or use ammunition? What uses of firearms (or ammunition) do you think the Second Amendment secures? Do you think the Second Amendment secures the right to shoot a "politician" or someone who did "possess in any way a means of exercising tyrannical power"? Do you think the Second Amendment secures the right of either the guy who shot at Trump or the guy who had a rifle at a golf course where Trump was playing if they thought Trump actually was "exercising tyrannical power"?
Designate, your reiteration of the words of the Second Amendment ("Militias are necessary to keep the state secure. As such, the people have a right to keep and bear arms, and that right shall not be infringed.") did not answer my question. What do those words mean today to guys with guns.
Do you think the Second Amendment secures the right of states to have militias or do you think secures the rights of individuals or both?
Do you think they have only the right to keep and the right to bear empty firearms? Do you think they have a right to use them in any way? Do you think they have a right to keep or bear or use ammunition? What uses of firearms (or ammunition) do you think the Second Amendment secures? Do you think the Second Amendment secures the right to shoot a "politician" or someone who did "possess in any way a means of exercising tyrannical power"? Do you think the Second Amendment secures the right of either the guy who shot at Trump or the guy who had a rifle at a golf course where Trump was playing if they thought Trump actually was "exercising tyrannical power"?
Designate, do you agree with BYODB? He said "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
Regarding "the right of the people" to "assemble," the First Amendment clearly limited such right to doing so "peaceably." Do you agree with BYODB's implication that immediately after doing that--in literally the next sentence of our Constitution--the Second Amendment secured the right of the people to assemble with firearms to actually "wage war" on the U.S. government?
BYODB also said, "Sadly," secessionists were "wrong regarding states being able to fend off a federal force during the civil war." So BYODB implied that he thinks the Second Amendment secured the right of secessionists "during the civil war" to try to rip apart our Union. Do you agree with BYODB regarding that? Were President Lincoln and Congress egregiously wrong tyrants? Do you think the Second Amendment secured the right of John Wilkes Booth to murder President Lincoln? After all, Booth did promptly shout, "Sic semper tyrannis."
Designate, do you agree with BYODB?
Yes, I agree with BYODB. The founding fathers were ridiculously clear in their writings on this matter.
Regarding "the right of the people" to "assemble," the First Amendment clearly limited such right to doing so "peaceably." Do you agree with BYODB's implication that immediately after doing that--in literally the next sentence of our Constitution--the Second Amendment secured the right of the people to assemble with firearms to actually "wage war" on the U.S. government?
Yes. The 1st guarantees that the citizens can redress their government for grievances through peaceable assembly. Obviously that is the best course of action. But it’s not the only course of action, and if it fails the founders understood, intimately I’d remind you, that “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
Do you agree with BYODB regarding that? Were President Lincoln and Congress egregiously wrong tyrants? Do you think the Second Amendment secured the right of John Wilkes Booth to murder President Lincoln?
The 2A doesn’t even enter the picture on whether or not the southern states had the right to secede. Even if you subscribe to the idea that they should have had that right, the Union winning decisively shut that down. Lincoln did a lot of tyrannical stuff during the war, to be sure. Did him fighting to preserve the Union make him a tyrant in and of itself (what I assume Booth was referring to, since he was a Southerner)? No I don’t think so.
Of course all of that is besides the point, since the Bill of Rights isn’t a list of permissions, it’s a list of rights that the government isn’t supposed to infringe upon.
Designate, your answers are logically inconsistent. They make no sense. There's no logic to your answers other than might makes right or whatever you think about any given issue must be right.
First, you said "I agree with BYODB. The founding fathers were ridiculously clear," i.e., "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
You even said all "the founders understood" what Jefferson (alone) said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
Second, you said, "The 2A doesn’t even enter the picture on whether or not the southern states had the right to secede." Why not after all you said above? How does that make sense to you? Southerners waged war on the US because they thought they were being victimized by tyrannical government, right?
You said, "Lincoln did a lot of tyrannical stuff during the war, to be sure. Did him fighting to preserve the Union make him a tyrant in and of itself . . . ? No I don’t think so." At best, you merely dodged my question about the Second Amendment. You (maybe) did not think President Lincoln was a tyrant, but Booth clearly did.
The differences of opinion here (and your inconsistency) highlight the problem: who is to judge what summary killings (without due process of law) of US government employees the Second Amendment actually authorizes? Try to be clear about what actually would serve to authorize someone or groups of people to kill US government employees or to "wage war" on the US government?
Designate, are you a lawyer? Do you have any respect for the words of the Constitution? Article VI says the Constitution is "the supreme Law of the Land." Amendment I secures "the right of the people" to "assemble," only if we do so "peaceably." What in our Constitution makes you think the Second Amendment meant that "peaceably" was irrelevant whenever an angry mob or an angry loner wants to use firearms to kill one or more people they blame for "tyranny" (just like Charlie Kirk). You actually even implied shooting Kirk would be consistent with the Second Amendment if he had been a "politician" or the killer thought Kirk did "possess in any way a means of exercising tyrannical power." What about the Second Amendment makes you think it was written to secure the right or the ability of Kirk's killer to kill anyone because he thought they "possess in any way a means of exercising tyrannical power"?
DesigNate, you said you agree with BYODB that "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
You seem to think that the Second Amendment surreptitiously secured the right of citizens to "wage war" against the US government whenever they think it "turns tyrannical."
What in our Constitution makes you think the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution would surreptitiously sneak in the power to make war without actually mentioning it expressly? Your view is wildly inconsistent with other text of our Constitution addressing war powers.
Article I expressly vested in only Congress the power to "declare War." It also expressly gave any "State" the power "without the Consent of Congress" to actually "engage in War" only if "actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
Article II commanded that "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States."
Despite all the foregoing you, think the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution also vaguely gave all the foregoing powers to some unidentified angry mob or some unidentified angry loner by means of the vague language of the Second Amendment. How does that make any sense to you?
DesigNate, the primary problem with the presumption or pretense that the Second Amendment put all the powers of government somehow into the hands of a mob or a man angry about perceived tyranny is that it makes those angry, likely irrational people the legislators, executives and judges of everything relevant. That is exactly what ALL the founders expressly opposed. See, e.g., Federalist No. 47, which included even more than the following:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many" is "the very definition of tyranny." “[T]the preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct."
All the people who wrote or ratified our Constitution expressly opposed the accumulation of powers that you presume the Second Amendment meant to secure. They used our Constitution (the supreme law of the land) to require the separation of the 3 powers into 3 distinct departments.
DesigNate, have you read the opinions in District of Columbia v. Heller or in N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Assn v Bruen? The justices who authored or joined in the majority opinions said (and showed) that the allusion to militia in the Second Amendment was essentially irrelevant. Do you think they got it wrong?
Never forget what Paul Harding wrote.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-gun-enthusiast-still-claim-their-right-to-bear-arms-is-more-important-than-public-safety/answer/Paul-Harding-14
All of your Constitutional Rights come at the cost of safety.
For example, you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all. I'd catch more real bad guys. You know those stories about creeps who keep sex slaves locked in their basements for years? I'd find those victims and rescue them. That neighbor of yours who might have a meth lab that is going to send poisonous fumes into your child's bedroom window, or explode and burn down your house? I'd find out for sure whether a lab was there.
How about all those guys who are probably child molesters, and we've got some evidence, but it isn't enough to convict in front of a jury, especially with that defense attorney throwing doubt all over our evidence? Those guys are on the street right now, and a child you love may be their next victim.
Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it.
The only problem is that if you give up all those rights, which are really just restrictions on the things I'm allowed to do to you, what's going to keep you safe from me?
Every right you have increases your danger from other people who share that right. Free speech? It allows monsters to spread hateful messages, possibly about a group to which you belong, just the same as it allows you to petition your government with legitimate grievances.
That free speech even allows you to argue in favor of discarding freedom and liberty as just too dangerous to trust in the hands of ordinary people. Now that, my friend, is what scares me - that people with opinions like that will spread them to weak-willed individuals who haven't really thought through the consequences. I won't argue for taking that right away, though, despite the dangers. That would be even more scary than you are.
Yes, some people in a free society are always going to abuse those freedoms. Criminals are going to hide behind the 4th amendment to conceal the evidence of their crimes. People who commit horrific acts are going to hire excellent defense attorneys who can convince a jury that doubt exists. And, yes, some people are going to use guns to commit murders.
Freedom is scary, but lack of freedom is scarier.
I saw you post this over on Ethics Alarms and it's quite accurate indeed.
Michael, only somebody who doesn't know (or doesn't respect) human nature or our history or our present would think something as absurd what you advocated above.
Take, for example, "you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all." For many years, officials had that power. That's exactly why the Fourth Amendment took it away from them. You think you or Harding know better than everyone else who lived in that kind of world and voted against it? If you want that kind of country, you can easily find it elsewhere. Move to Russia and find out how much you like the government having that kind of power.
You and Harding literally did use the freedom of speech "to argue in favor of discarding freedom and liberty." You literally recommended "Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments." Didn't "people with opinions like that" just "spread them to weak-willed individuals who haven't really thought through the consequences"?
You clearly don't understand the argument.
They aren't arguing in favor of those things, they are pointing out that one can make the argument we might be safer with unlimited search power on the part of the government but that ultimately that supposed safety is at the cost of liberty...and likely would be temporary at best since the government, once so empowered, would ultimately offer neither safety nor liberty.
They are literally on your side with this argument.
BYOBD, I did understand the argument. I saw them speaking out of both sides of their mouths. They started with wild, absurd and dangerous falsehoods, and then they said that despite all the wonderful benefits that would flow from eliminating many of our rights, we're somehow better off leaving them in place. So I don't know what they actually meant or actually wanted.
They started by saying things that were utterly absurd, and they were based on the even more absurd pretense that they knew better than everyone who wrote or ratified our Constitution. They wrote things that weren't true and were anti-constitutional:
"Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it."
"you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all."
The claim that you understood what was said is belied by your response. You very clearly do not understand.
Given that the above is clear and eloquent, it's obvious that your lack of understanding is either intentional or you are a simpleton.
Harsh, but true.
BYODB, show me what I missed. Explain it to me. Don't just be mad at me for exposing the absurdity of your pretense that the purported "eloquent" words of Harding somehow made his absurd anti-constitutional falsehoods somehow acceptable. Show me, for example, why you think the following was true (or even remotely eloquent):
"Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it."
"you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all."
It's patently obvious that limits on the government, such as limits on search and seizure, have associated risks that some law breakers will escape punishment due to technicalities on how evidence was collected.
Those law breakers will, one assumes, go on to break other laws rather than being in jail for their original crimes. There is a direct line between that and less safety because of the 4th amendment.
That is still considered a net good because the government, once empowered to ignore the 4th amendment, would give neither the promised safety of increased enforcement nor the liberty promised by the 4th amendment.
In fact, Charlie Kirk was exactly right when he spoke about some amount of gun related crime deaths being a result of the 2nd amendment itself. He was also correct when he said they were worth it, because what the government would do to a disarmed populace is the worse alternative.
This will be the last time I explain this concept. If you still don't get it, then there is no point debating someone that is incapable of reason or honest debate. At this point, you are a sea lion and it's not a good look.
BYODB, again, stop trying to change the subject or throw up other distractions. Just show us anything that supports your obvious falsehoods:
"The founders were thinking about armed uprisings because they were literally in the middle of one [in 1787-1789?]. In fact, that was one of the reasons they decided [in 1789-1791] to include the 2nd amendment. They foresaw even the United States becoming authoritarian, and they wanted people to have the ability to fight back against their own government."
"Rebellion can be justified, or not, and the founders provided options for both."
I showed your contentions were false by quoting multiple provisions of our Constitution (in Articles I, II, III and Amendment I). I even quoted from your own purported source (Federalist No. 29).
Criminals are going to hide behind the 4th amendment to conceal the evidence of their crimes. People who commit horrific acts are going to hire excellent defense attorneys who can convince a jury that doubt exists. And, yes, some people are going to use guns to commit murders.
Freedom is scary, but lack of freedom is scarier.
It's little wonder you concentrate on two sentences out of the whole post, since if you read any of the rest of it you're revealed as an idiot.
BYODB, finally! After about 10 hours of stalling you finally provided some text to try to support your position.
But your excerpting one sentence and presenting it in isolation hardly made "clear" that I "didn't read a single damn thing." Once again, you foolishly and blatantly merely lied. You knew I had read and presented copious text of our Constitution, all of which you have failed to even address, as well as text from Federalist No. 29, which was the only source you ever even cited until now.
Now you've finally found some text that you think helps you in Federalist No. 28 ("If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defence, which is paramount to all positive forms of government"). But you still have not (and cannot) show me how our Constitution authorized anyone to actually use any firearm against the U.S. government or any U.S. government employee. If you cannot show that, then your sentence is useless to you.
Show us how to apply the sentence you found to the guy who shot at Trump or the guy who was hiding out by the golf course while Trump was playing golf.
Show us how to apply the sentence you found to the secessionists during the Civil War or to John Wilkes Booth who murdered President Lincoln and then promptly shouted "Sic semper tyrannis!"
What makes you think we should be more influenced by the sentence you quoted from Federalist No. 28 than the following from Federalist No. 28:
"THAT there may happen cases in which the national government may be necessitated to resort to force, cannot be denied. Our own experience has corroborated the lessons taught by the examples of other nations; that emergencies of this sort will sometimes arise in all societies, however constituted; that seditions and insurrections are, unhappily, maladies as inseparable from the body politic as tumors and eruptions from the natural body."
"An insurrection, whatever may be its immediate cause, eventually endangers all government. Regard to the public peace, if not to the rights of the Union, would engage the citizens to whom the contagion had not communicated itself to oppose the insurgents."
"Should such emergencies at any time happen under the national government, there could be no remedy but force."
"[T]here might sometimes be a necessity to make use of a force constituted differently from the militia, to preserve the peace of the community and to maintain the just authority of the laws against those violent invasions of them which amount to insurrections and rebellions."
Previously, you said, "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
Regarding "the right of the people" to "assemble," the First Amendment clearly limited such right to doing so "peaceably." What makes you think that immediately after doing that--in literally the next sentence of our Constitution--the Second Amendment secured the right of the people to assemble with firearms to actually "wage war" on the U.S. government? Does your position actually make any sense to you? If so, please explain how.
BYODB, previously you said, "Not a single founder of the United States thought that this country was an exception to their view that when a government turns tyrannical, the populace must be armed to defend themselves from it and, even, wage war against it."
You seem to think that the Second Amendment surreptitiously secured the right of citizens to "wage war" against the US government whenever they think it "turns tyrannical."
What in our Constitution makes you think the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution would surreptitiously sneak in the power to make war without actually mentioning it expressly? Your view is wildly inconsistent with other text of our Constitution addressing war powers.
Article I expressly vested in only Congress the power to "declare War." It also expressly gave any "State" the power "without the Consent of Congress" to actually "engage in War" only if "actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
Article II commanded that "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States."
Despite all the foregoing you, think the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution also vaguely gave all the foregoing powers to some unidentified angry mob or some unidentified angry loner by means of the vague language of the Second Amendment? How does that make any sense to you?
BYODB, again your words remind me of Harding's words about people he criticized as "weak-willed individuals who haven't really thought through the consequences." It's easy (and mindless) to say that "Freedom is scary, but lack of freedom is scarier." Such platitudes merely beg the question.
How does our Constitution actually define freedom? How does it secure freedom? One man's freedom is another man's prison. One man's freedom is another man's death. That's why Kirk's killer killed Kirk. That's why Kirk's killer will at least go to prison and maybe eventually be executed.
For no good reason whatsoever, you continue to think that the Second Amendment secured the freedom of people like Kirk's killer to kill people they suspect of seeking to impose tyranny. For copious good reason, your idea of such freedom is contrary to our Constitution.
The Fifth Amendment also guarantees that Kirk's killer will get away with it unless he pleads guilty, or the state proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
BYODB, since you think Harding's words were "eloquent," I'll say I think you are one of the people he criticized as "weak-willed individuals who haven't really thought through the consequences." Nothing I've seen you say leads me to believe you have actually "thought through the consequences" of any of the things you want us to think our Constitution means. Your refusal to even copy and paste here the relevant text of any on-line document is further evidence that you didn't think through what you said--and evidence that you lack the courage to either admit your mistake or try to prove you're not now lying.
That's a complement coming from you if we're being honest.
Your refusal to even copy and paste here the relevant text of any on-line document is further evidence that you didn't think through what you said--and evidence that you lack the courage to either admit your mistake or try to prove you're not now lying.
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defence, which is paramount to all positive forms of government" -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 28
Not a single founder of this country thought it was unique in it's ability to resist totalitarian impulse, and we know exactly what they thought the final answer was for a totalitarian regime. They shot them.
So, now that it's clear you didn't read a single damn thing and are speaking totally out of your ass, do you feel like a fool yet?
Probably not, since you think people that note there are negative consequences to natural rights are arguing in favor of doing away with them. You utter idiot.
BYODB, in addition to my longer response above, did you notice the text that followed almost immediately after the sentence you quoted. It was the one time Hamilton actually mentioned "citizens" using "arms."
If "[t]he citizens" actually "rush tumultuously to arms" then "[t]he usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo." That's the same thing I've been saying. Only fools would think that the Second Amendment somehow secures their right or was meant to help enable them to take up arms against the US government.
There's no reason to think that by "self-defence" Hamilton meant with firearms. The right and power of self-defense against government is what the First Amendment secures.
As expected, you were retarded after all.
BYODB, your presumption or pretense that the Second Amendment replaced everything and everyone in our Constitution (legislators, executive officials and judges) with the "reason" of an angry mob or an angry man makes no sense. We have a real example right now. It makes no sense to think that all the people who wrote and ratified our original Constitution or the Bill of Rights intended to give the power to someone like Kirk's killer to decide when nothing else in our Constitution mattered except what you say or imply the Second Amendment meant.
The primary problem with your presumption or pretense that the Second Amendment put all the powers of government somehow into the hands of a mob or a man angry about perceived tyranny is that it makes those angry, likely irrational people the legislators, executives and judges of everything relevant. That is exactly what ALL the founders expressly opposed. See, e.g., Federalist No. 47, which included even more than the following:
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many" is "the very definition of tyranny." [T]the preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct"
“You think you or Harding know better than everyone else who lived in that kind of world and voted against it? If you want that kind of country, you can easily find it elsewhere. Move to Russia and find out how much you like the government having that kind of power.”
That’s literally the opposite of what he posted.
Designate, read it again:
"Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it."
"you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all."
Anyone who asserts or agrees with such arguments is at least fool, if not a tool or proponent of oppression. The mere fact that Harding and Michael subsequently said we somehow would be better off not eliminating our rights was not even close to reassuring. They were merely talking out of both sides of their mouth, and I couldn't tell exactly what they actually thought (except for the foregoing) or what they actually wanted ultimately.
The reason the people who wrote and ratified our Constitution expressly prohibited certain conduct (in our Constitution, no less) is that many people in power abused those very powers to oppress people for a very long time. That long history of abuses is exactly why those prohibitions were included in our Constitution.
Maybe you should have read all of it. To whit: “The only problem is that if you give up all those rights, which are really just restrictions on the things I'm allowed to do to you, what's going to keep you safe from me?”
He’s clearly laying out why it’s not a good idea to do such things, not supporting them being done.
Designate, that's why I said he's talking out of both sides of his mouth and I cannot even tell what he really is trying to convince people to do. You're merely proving that Harding (and Michael) actually knew that their assertions were false. They both knew (and you know) the following actually are false:
"Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it."
"you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all."
"I cannot even tell what he really is trying to convince people to do."
It seems obvious to me that he's making the case that giving up liberty (rights) for security (safety) is not going to give you liberty OR security.
If that doesn't clarify things, I don't know what else to tell you.
DesigNate, if you're correct, then why did he start out with lies about the great safety that would flow from giving up great rights secured by our Constitution? Why even assert dangerous falsehoods such the following to make the point you say Harding and Michael were trying to make?
"Give up your rights under the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments, and I'll make the world safer for you. No question about it."
"you would be much safer if I could search houses, cars, and people whenever I wanted to, for any reason, or no reason at all."
Any thinking person would think that Harding could make his point much better by saying that the foregoing would NOT make our lives any safer. Any honest thinking person would simply say that doing those things will merely change who has the power and ability to abuse and oppress.
For the past several days, the leftist MSM has attempted to paint the shooter as a right wing extremist.
And failed every time.
However, here is a new twist on the event in which the presenter provides what appears to be evidence of a deeper conspiracy:
https://x.com/salomondrin/status/1966255182662218099
Was there a real shooter with a cellphone gun?
Watch the video closely.
Tranny violence must be addressed soon. It cannot go on like this.
Reopen mental institutions and lock them up, along with anyone who criticizes the administration.
You should be thrown in an insane asylum too.
At the very least, begin treating self-proclaimed trans like the delusional nutjobs they are, do not affirm them, and DO NOT let them influence school children or the curriculum in any way.
In other words, a return to normal.
The lunatic left believes transgenderism is not a mental disorder even though the transgenders cannot have a monthly menstrual cycle and still have that pesky XY chromosome in them.
In other words, transgenders have a problem with the wide world of biological reality.
There's a word for that, and it starts with the letter, "I."
despicable celebrations
Dear editors:
The link in this article doesn’t work. It goes to an article about doxxing people for their political speech in an effort to silence them. Which is despicable. Celebrating is what me and my wife were doing this weekend. Maybe you should come over and eat BBQ and see what celebration actually means before linking to an article that conflates celebrating with about the actions of joyless reactionary NPCs.
Lol, no one is getting fired for political speech, stop exaggerating.
Charlie Kirk was a douche. Prove Me Wrong.
Fuck off. You can think that if you want, but it is irrelevant here and you are just being shitty.
No one murders a douche for being a douche.
Explain to me why he was a threat to you.
You misspelled, "George Floyd."
Fuck off, KAR. At least have the balls to post under your actual moniker.
Dis-Arming Kirk by law would've saved him! /s
Seems obvious his assassin didn't care much about the law.
The left is so retarded.
I agree with the tone of the article. The 2nd amendment is around so that people can protect themselves from a tyrannical government. The definition of “tyrannical government” had been ridiculously expanded by reactionaries to include actions like increasing tax rates on the wealthy and providing medical care to all. Those, clearly, aren’t reasons for armed rebellion against the government.
It’s only when masked thugs start to take people in unmarked cars, sending US citizens to concentration camps and invading people’s houses and places of work without a warrant that ideas like shooting regime propagandists become reasonable and, indeed, patriotic.
Really? Remember the Boston Tea Party?
Good thing people do not have this occurring in the USA. Do you live in Iran?
KAR lives in Portland, Oregon where the locals haven’t mastered using a toilet and instead shit in public spaces. He lives just down the road from Needle Park.
The second amendment is there to help afford protection from both tyrannical government and criminal garden-variety predators.
The definition of “tyrannical government” had been ridiculously expanded by reactionaries to include actions like increasing tax rates on the wealthy and providing medical care to all.
yes, those are a couple of the evil things our government is doing to us. Any questions?
Of course it is ironic. It is ironic that the guy who says gun murders are the price of freedom got murdered by a gun.
It is ironic that he says people need guns to protect against tyrannical government was shot because he was a major player in the formation of a tyrannical government.
This is similar to an anti-vaxxer dying of a virus they could have gotten a vaccine for, or an anti-lifejacket person drowning in a boat accident. They all died by doing what the encouraged others to do.
Dear Molly, seek psychiatric help.
How many of those who received the vaxx contratcted the virus not only once but multiple times. How many died suddenly from Myocarditis? Turbo cancers, children contracting cancers, miscarriages and spontaneous abortions?
The vaxx protected you from NOTHING.
The vaxx and the entire charade was a total LIE!
It was meant to cause harm. It was designed to kill.
Anyone who took the kill shot has a time bomb inside their body waiting to go off.
Fauci is a liar, fraud, narcissist and possible psychopath, a world criminal and deserves to be tried in an international court of law much like the Nuremberg trials. When found guilty he needs to receive the same punishment as Josef Mengele.
Everything, literally everything the government said was a lie.
Please go see my comment on the story about how debating with AI can get crazy conspiracy people to de-radicalize.
Oh wait, that is it! Your eureka moment. You just realized your problem, you keep debating AI and then come here thinking you have an understanding.
"Dear Molly, seek psychiatric help."
Sure… All of those who disagree with MEEEE are… Mentally ILL!!! YES, this! Good authoritarians KNOW this already!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
All of the GOOD totalitarians KNOW that those who oppose totalitarianism are mentally ill, for sure!!!
Just like it's ironic that your side is now whining that you're getting the same liberating tolerance you promote.
How would it be if a non vaccinated person punched you in the face for calling them a murderer? Would that be ironic? Would you deserve it? Would you accept it and maybe smarten up a bit and realize spewing BS from both sides of your face has consequences?
Lucky for you the un vaccinated were not unhinged lunatics who suggest that speech is violence and can be removed with violence.
It's ironic that the left who say they preach, love, peace and tolerance are always so violent, hateful and intolerant when faced with opposing opinions.
During the covid hoax, people who disagreed with whatever our overlords told us , were doxxed, threatened, fired, ridiculed and attacked. It was like living in the old Soviet Union where a few words would be enough to send you to a gulag. America more closely resembled the Soviet Union during that dark time than at any other time in history. Lockdowns, forced vaccinations, silencing opposition, closing schools and local businesses which cost tens of thousands of jobs. More than a hundred thousand small businesses closed due to the hysteria by the Branch Covidians.
It's with a bit of humor that those same people who would have reported you to the Ministry of truth for the unforgiveable sin of contradicting the government loud speakers are now the ones suffering the consequences of their speech. The leftist loudmouths are losing their jobs because of the nasty, evil posts they made concerning the murder of Charlie Kirk and you should see some of them shedding tears of self pity.
This is the left. Self absorbed and narcissistic, deluded into the belief they and only they should hold the reins of power and the willing ness to use violence to obtain it.
The history of Marxism is filled with violence and death.
"The history of Marxism is filled with violence and death."
That's because Marx preached violence for a economic/political pie-in-the-sky system that is built to fail, and the only people who believe in Marx are wannabe tyrants and fools.
Yes, over a million people in the US died for shits and giggles. MAGAs are the dumbest shits there are.
They didn’t die for shits and giggles, Dr. Retard, they died with shits and giggles.
You don’t care about any of those people. Stop standing on their corpses.
Never forget how people were fired from their jobs for questioning the use of an Emergency Use Authorization vaccine (skipping all normal trials) that turned out to be full of nasty side-effects.
That is, the hunting rifle allegedly used to murder Charlie Kirk is an example of the only type of firearm gun control advocates say they don't want to ban or restrict. No major law advocated in recent years, such as magazine capacity limits or bans on semi-automatic weapons, would have affected it.
While true we should recognize this as an admission their true goal is to ban all firearms. They're merely going about it incrementally because it helps them demonize defenders of gun rights.
How is no one pushing for a ban on hunting rifles an admission that they want to ban hunting rifles?
Just how retarded are you?
The claim that this incident shows the need for gun control proves their plan for gun control includes this type of weapon.
Oddly omitted: the involvement of the Rainbow Cult.
If we're going to delve into culture wars, we could mention the unfortunate use of speech in the social media cesspool. That's where [the murderer] was seemingly radicalized
Not just by "social media" - but by a very SPECIFIC social media. Namely, that of the LGBT Pedo variety.
Also at issue is that this guy was the true goal of the COVID lockdowns. Because he wasn't like this prior to them. He was a seemingly happy, well-adjusted kid with a scholarship that seemed to value his family.
His transition occurred when he was locked away with nothing BUT social media as a regular "companion," and where he was inundated with LGBT Pedo doctrine and ideology.
The LGBT Pedo is the most malevolent and insidious arm of the Marxist movement in America. It radicalized this guy into a murderer, just like it has so many others. And don't pretend it hasn't, because all these slayings always seem to have very common elements when it comes to the slayers.
It's long past time to round every single person waving that Satanic flag, and put them back in the sanitariums where they belong.
And if they resist even slightly I'm 100% OK, at this point, with sending them straight back to their master.
I was going to post that it was actually ironic, but I'm having second thoughts. He favored gun rights EVEN THOUGH THAT COMES WITH RISKS.
I'd compare this to someone joining the military/police/fire department even though he recognizes it comes with a risk of death. If he then dies on the job, I wouldn't call that ironic.
It’s like rain, on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid.