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Constitution

Was the Bill of Rights a Bad Idea? Some Founding Fathers Thought So.

Did they have a point?

Damon Root | 8.14.2025 7:00 AM

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The opening line of the U.S. Constitution is shown on a rolled up old document | Illustration: Eddie Marshall | Dana Rothstein | Dreamstime.com | Joana Miriam | Unsplash
(Illustration: Eddie Marshall | Dana Rothstein | Dreamstime.com | Joana Miriam | Unsplash)

What's the first thing that comes to mind when you think about the U.S. Constitution?

For many people, the answer probably involves one of the famous individual liberties that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights, such as freedom of speech, due process, or the right to keep and bear arms. When a person argues that something is unconstitutional, what that person often means is that it violates one or more of the provisions contained in the Bill of Rights.

Yet the Constitution did not originally include the Bill of Rights when it was ratified in 1788. Why not?

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The answer is that some of the framers of the original Constitution feared that if certain rights were enumerated in the text, all of the other, unenumerated rights would be left wide open for government abuse.

"It would not only be useless, but dangerous, to enumerate a number of rights which are not intended to be given up," declared future Supreme Court Justice James Iredell at the North Carolina Ratification Convention in 1788. That is "because it would be implying, in the strongest manner, that every right not included in the exception might be impaired by the government without usurpation." What is more, Iredell declared, "it would be impossible to enumerate every one. Let anyone make what collection or enumeration of rights he pleases, I will immediately mention twenty or thirty more rights not contained in it."

That was the position taken by those who came to be known as the Federalists. They thought that adding a bill of rights to the Constitution was a bad idea not because they were against individual rights, but because they despaired of what might happen to any rights that were not specifically written out.

But the Constitution's Anti-Federalist critics were not persuaded by such concerns. "The want of a Bill of Rights to accompany this proposed system," declared the Anti-Federalist pamphleteer who went by the pseudonym "John DeWitt," "is a solid objection to it." In his view, "to express those rights" which the government may not infringe was a necessary and proper safeguard against "the intrusion into society of that doctrine of tacit implication which has been the favorite theme of every tyrant from the origin of all governments to the present day."

Thomas Jefferson, who was then stationed overseas as the American ambassador to France, shared this Anti-Federalist critique: There are "good things" about the new Constitution, Jefferson wrote from Paris in 1787, but one thing "I do not like" is "the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land and not the law of Nations." According to Jefferson, "a bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference."

Jefferson's friend James Madison, who is often called "the father of the Constitution," took such views to heart. "The great mass of the people who opposed [the Constitution]," Madison told Congress in 1789, "dislike it because it did not contain effectual provision against encroachments on particular rights." So, Madison now argued, why not make effectual provision by adopting a number of new constitutional amendments that "will secure those rights, which [the Anti-Federalists] consider as not sufficiently guarded." In modified form, Madison's proposed batch of amendments would become the Bill of Rights.

At the same time, however, Madison never lost sight of the objections made by the Federalists. "It has been observed also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration," he said, "and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the general government, and were consequently insecure."

Madison conceded that "this is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; But, I conceive, that may be guarded against. I have attempted it."

Madison's attempt is better known to us today as the Ninth Amendment, which declares: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Through this provision, Madison sought to simultaneously placate the Anti-Federalists while removing any cause for alarm by the Federalists.

Did it work?

Well, yes and no. The various liberties spelled out in the Bill of Rights have—at least sometimes—served as important checks against overreaching government. So that's a point to the Anti-Federalists.

But what about the sorry state of unenumerated rights? Alas, here we must award a point to the Federalists, who more or less predicted today's lopsided legal order, in which some constitutional rights get more judicial respect than others, and in which unenumerated rights get the least judicial respect of all.

Still, the Ninth Amendment is sitting right there in the Constitution, patiently waiting to be deployed in defense of unenumerated rights, just as Madison intended. And perhaps one day it will be.

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NEXT: The U.K.'s Roundabouts Free Drivers From the Tyranny of Traffic Lights

Damon Root is a senior editor at Reason and the author of A Glorious Liberty: Frederick Douglass and the Fight for an Antislavery Constitution (Potomac Books).

ConstitutionHistoryLaw & GovernmentUnenumerated Rights
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  1. Chumby   2 months ago

    Given that some slavers can’t even agree on the present text, a pack of enumerating any rights would mean those would not be (partially) recognized.

  2. Kemuel   2 months ago

    There's only so far paper will take you. Russia has a bill of rights, too. The citizens and their elected representatives have to actually believe in it for it to work. Nevermind that some communists believe there is an unenumerated right to freedom from poverty and an unenumerated right to force physicians into slavery by virtue of their profession.

    1. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

      Yes, any expression rights will fail if the society does not believe in them and fight to protect them. But enumeration does prevent the lawyers from denying their existence.

      1. SQRLSY   2 months ago

        Ralph Waldo Emerson agrees with you! (And so do I).

        (Short version up top).
        Ralph Waldo Emerson, who said, ‘The State must follow, and not lead, the character and progress of the citizen.’

        Here is the full-blown quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson:
        ‘Republics abound in young civilians who believe that the laws make the city, that grave modifications of the policy and modes of living and employments of the population, that commerce, education and religion may be voted in or out; and that any measure, though it were absurd, may be imposed on a people if only you can get sufficient voices to make it a law. But the wise know that foolish legislation is a rope of sand which perishes in the twisting; that the State must follow and not lead the character and progress of the citizen; that the form of government which prevails is the expression of what cultivation exists in the population which permits it. The law is only a memorandum.’

        Another relevant Emerson quote:
        “All men plume themselves on the improvement of society, and no man improves.”
        So anyway, suppose that Government Almighty goes too far, and mandates no-meat diets, which many people disagree with, just like the War on Drugs today…
        Then there will be underground, makeshift, amateurish animal-killing-and-butchering shops, where the animals will be treated far less humanely than they are today! (Thank You Do-Gooders!!!)
        You will not be able to let Fluffy or Fido wander through the bushes in your own back yard, for fear of meat-hungry lawbreaking pet-snatchers!
        (But, Meat-Hungry Lawbreaking Pet-Snatchers would make a MOST EXCELLENT name for a garage band!)

  3. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

    "Well, yes and no. The various liberties spelled out in the Bill of Rights have—at least sometimes—served as important checks against overreaching government. So that's a point to the Anti-Federalists.

    But what about the sorry state of unenumerated rights? Alas, here we must award a point to the Federalists, who more or less predicted today's lopsided legal order, in which some constitutional rights get more judicial respect than others, and in which unenumerated rights get the least judicial respect of all."

    The evidence provided by the UK and Europe have proven the Anti-Federalist point. If rights are not enumerated, then they are not respected by the government. See Keir Starmer's claim that free speech is protected in Britain, while its government convicted and imprisoned a woman with a 30 plus month sentence (greater than some child rapists) over an impolitic emotional tweet. Our own experience says that even if rights are enumerated, the nannies in the government will try sophistry to deny the enumerated text means what it says (see the arguments for gun control).

  4. damikesc   2 months ago

    Yeah, not seeing how anybody could look at the world today and say "Yeah, enumerated rights WERE a bad idea!"

  5. JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)   2 months ago

    I wish I could publish and get paid for 8th grade civics papers.

    1. Chumby   2 months ago

      If you end up getting that gig, a certain broken commenter will exclaim, “The Dems did it first!”

      1. tracerv   2 months ago

        I bet the comments on a JesseeAZ article in Reason would be popcorn worthy.

        1. JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)   2 months ago

          I'll email KMW to see if I can guest publish.

          1. Chumby   2 months ago

            Do you have a communications degree? If so, you could pen an economics or science article.

            1. Quo Usque Tandem   2 months ago

              You could work for Vox; seriously I'm going to a party this weekend where I am acquainted with one of their VPs; I'll put in a word for you.

            2. JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)   2 months ago

              Shit. Youre right. I dont have a degree failed education majors go to.

          2. tracerv   2 months ago

            You're no Aella but then again, who is.

            1. JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)   2 months ago

              Sarc has described me as tall and well groomed sir. How dare you.

              1. tracerv   2 months ago

                Ha. That one always makes me chuckle.

    2. Kemuel   2 months ago

      I wish you could read an 8th grade civics paper.

  6. Adans smith   2 months ago

    It didn't help the commerce clause.

    1. Quo Usque Tandem   2 months ago

      Makes you wonder what the framers would have done had they been provided with a look the Wickard v. Filburn case. Might there have been an enumerated right to the effect that you can grow whatever crops you want on your own land for your own use?

  7. Quo Usque Tandem   2 months ago

    "the intrusion into society of that doctrine of tacit implication which has been the favorite theme of every tyrant from the origin of all governments to the present day."

    Now there's a statement that has aged well.

  8. JasonT20   2 months ago

    I am a big believer that the 9th Amendment has to mean something. It is in the Constitution, and it is absurd to interpret any text out as if it doesn't mean anything. The most valid argument against Robert Bork's nomination to the Supreme Court in 1987 is that he likened the 9th Amendment to an "ink blot" where the meaning couldn't be determined, and that he didn't know what he was supposed to do with it, as a judge.

    The meaning of the 9th Amendment is very clear to me, and how to apply it is equally clear:

    Any argument that a right doesn't exist because it isn't explicitly listed as an individual right in the text of the Constitution is invalid on its face. If a lawyer for the government says that parents don't have a right to raise their children as they see fit because the Constitution doesn't say that they do, the judge can go, "BBZZZTTT! Wrong! Try again!"

    The 9th Amendment does not tell judges when an argument in favor of a claimed right's existence is correct. Lawyers and judges still have a difficult job to do in order to figure that out. But it very much gives judges one clear instruction on how to respond to a common type of argument against the existence of a claimed right.

    1. sarcasmic   2 months ago

      Judges and lawyers are great at finding unenumerated powers.

      1. JasonT20   2 months ago

        True. They are also very good at finding reasons to view enumerated powers more broadly than they had been before.

    2. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

      I think basically problem with unenumerated rights is: what are they? And who decided that x assertion is a right but you assertion is not. I suppose it is a reference to the jurisprudence of English Common Law up to 1776 and therefore what qualifies as an unenumerated right is defined there.

      1. Rick James   2 months ago

        No one should be denied their right to free _______________, ____________, ____________... ______________ ___________ __________, ____________, ____________, __________ and __________. Nor _________, ____________, ____________, _________, ____________, ____________, _________... and lest we forget, no human should go without free ___________, _________, __________ and _______ or ___________, and even __________ should never be denied.

        1. Kemuel   2 months ago

          I put "beer" in every blank. Is that cheating, or winning?

          1. Nelson   2 months ago

            Winning. Obviously.

            In the immortal words of (possibly) Ben Franklin, “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy”.

      2. JasonT20   2 months ago

        1) Why 1776 when the Constitution was drafted in 1787 and the Bill of Rights during the first Congress in 1789?

        2) Why should English Common Law be dispositive of anything in U.S. law when we declared our independence from England in 1776?

        The impression I get is that originalism came into being 4-5 decades ago because of what some conservative lawyers and legal scholars of the time saw in our history. They looked back to the Founding Era (and the original Constitution and the Bill of Rights) or the immediate post-Civil War era (for the 14th and 15th Amendments) because they liked the way society was ordered then more than they liked how it was in their present. And they especially didn't like the way that it looked like society was moving.

        A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it.
        ― William F. Buckley

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          JasonT20, legitimate reasons exist for treating some "English Common Law" as "dispositive" of some issues "in U.S. law" after "we declared our independence from England in 1776." But not nearly as many or as strong as the overarching principle emphasized by our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, as Madison accentuated in The Report of 1800, which he prepared to oppose the violations of our Constitution by a conspiracy of the president, the Secretary of State, the majority of Congress, and judges (including SCOTUS Justice Samuel Chase). Those officials made and purported to enforce the Sedition Act of 1798 to punish criticism of federal government employees. Madison responded by emphasizing the sovereignty of the people over all public servants.

          We must consider the rights of the sovereign people and the powers of public servants "with a reverence for our constitution, in the true character in which it issued from the sovereign authority of the people." "The essential difference between the British government, and the American constitutions, will place this subject in the clearest light." In Britain, Parliament was (and is) sovereign and the people were (and are) mere subjects.

          "In the United States, the case is altogether different. The people, not the government, possess the absolute sovereignty. The legislature, no less than the executive, is under limitations of power. Encroachments are regarded as possible from the one, as well as from the other. Hence in the United States, the great and essential rights of the people are secured against legislative, as well as against executive ambition. They are secured, not [only] by laws paramount to prerogative; but by constitutions paramount to laws."

          "It will be remembered that a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles is solemnly enjoined by most of the state constitutions, and particularly by our own, as a necessary safeguard against the danger of degeneracy to which republics are liable . . . . The authority of constitutions over governments, and of the sovereignty of the people over constitutions, are truths which are at all times necessary to be kept in mind; and at no time perhaps more necessary than at the present."

    3. JFree   2 months ago

      The 9th can only be claimed by those who organize well enough to force it to mean something. Neither DeRp group of partisans wants it to mean something. The D's accept the notion of a living constitution but mostly use that to argue for expanded government not expanded freedom for individuals. The Rs are incapable of viewing any individual rights at all unless they were enumerated in 1789 - the ossification of originalism - see a right to privacy.

      It could have become meaningful if we still had common law. But we mostly threw away common law.

      1. JasonT20   2 months ago

        The D's accept the notion of a living constitution but mostly use that to argue for expanded government not expanded freedom for individuals. The Rs are incapable of viewing any individual rights at all unless they were enumerated in 1789 - the ossification of originalism - see a right to privacy.

        This is contradictory. You're correct about Democrats often wanting a living constitution to expand government, but, in relation to individual rights, they do use it more often to expand individual rights than to limit them.

        Also, the largest part of how Democrats argue to limit the rights of some individuals is to limit the ability of those individuals to negatively affect other individuals. Especially, they want to limit the ability of power individuals (or groups) to cause harm to those with less power. But, that is just my perspective on it, and I am sure that yours is different.

        In fact, this is what I see as the big difference between left and right in the U.S.* People on both sides will absolutely say that they value individual rights and liberties. People on both sides will also absolutely say that they value equal treatment under the law. People on both sides will absolutely say that they want individual hard work, talent, and achievement to be rewarded. People on both sides will absolutely say that they want people that struggle to get a helping hand standing back up when they fall down (or are pushed).

        The differences between left and right are mostly due to how people prioritize those things differently when they conflict with each other.

        * I'm setting aside the fringes and focusing on both ordinary citizens and politicians that might have been called "mainstream" within their own parties in a time when that wasn't pejorative, or that were a bit further than the centers of their party, but not radically so.

    4. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      JasonT20, you're right that the 9th Amendment has great meaning. But we can hardly see it if we look at it like judges and law professors typically teach it (if they address it at all). Read the Preamble and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments together: "We the People" are sovereign, and "by the Constitution" we "delegated to the United States" limited "powers;" we "prohibited by it to the States" certain powers: we "reserved to the States" certain powers and we "reserved" to "the people" the remaining powers. Our "Constitution" never can "be construed to deny or disparage" any rights "retained by the people" based on the mere fact of any mere "enumeration in the Constitution" of "certain rights."

      So far, the best writing I've seen about rights was by James Madison. I must agree with the many who thought Madison earned the titles Father of the Constitution and Father of the Bill of Rights. When Madison presented to the First Congress on June 8, 1789, his proposals on how to improve on our original Constitution, he highlighted crucial truths about our rights designed to diminish the power of public servants to inflict wrongs.

      Madison proposed making explicit the most important principle in our Constitution--the sovereignty of the people. Such sovereignty already was implicit in the words and structure of the Constitution, including its first words ("We the People" do "ordain and establish this Constitution" to "establish Justice" and "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves") and the first sentence of Articles I, II and III (emphasizing the People, alone, :vested" only limited "power" in particular public servants).

      Even so, to further clarify and cement the sovereignty of the people (and better to safeguard against abuses of power by ANY of our public servants), Madison proposed "First. That there be prefixed to the constitution a declaration" of three aspects of the sovereignty of the people and the power of all public servants (implicitly invoking and expressly incorporating into our Constitution the sense of paragraph 2 of the Declaration of Independence):

      "That all power is originally vested in and consequently derived from the people.

      That government is instituted, and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right of acquiring and using property, and generally of pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

      That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government, whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purposes of its institution."

  9. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

    Gotta wonder what piece of the BoR is stopping Damon's totalitarian Leftist friends from getting their way to prompt this.

    1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Social Justice, it's not the Bill of Rights that is deterring them. It is the incompetence or outright deception of SCOTUS justices that is discouraging them. See my comment below re: Dobbs and the lie about and violation of the Ninth Amendment by the current SCOTUS majority. The Dobbs majority didn't make up that lie. They quoted the majority in Roe v. Wade. The Roe majority egregiously misrepresented the Ninth Amendment. But a great qualitative difference separates the two falsehoods. The Roe majority used its misrepresentation of the Ninth Amendment to emphasize that our Constitution does at least acknowledge that rights are retained by the people. The Dobbs majority abused its falsehood to do exactly what the Ninth Amendment prohibited.

  10. Minadin   2 months ago

    It wouldn't be necessary if our leaders and the people who vote for them weren't power-hungry retards, and everyone just stuck to the constitution as written, and enumerated powers of the government only.

    But, it clearly is, because they don't.

  11. Chuck P. (Now with less Sarc more snark)   2 months ago

    But it very much gives judges one clear instruction on how to respond to a common type of argument against the existence of a claimed right.

    And this was meant to work hand in hand with the 10th. The federal government was never meant to consolidate power. It was meant to provide for the common defense and to be a foil to state tyranny over the individual.

    1. Nelson   2 months ago

      The “states more powerful than the federal government” premise was the basis of the Articles of Confederation, an abject failure that led to the Constitution, a rousing success.

      It seems like the most vocal opponents of strong federal protection of individual rights are those who want to be able to create enclaves where only the “right” rights are protected.

      If you say “if you don’t like it, you can kove to another state”, I’m talking about you.

  12. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

    ""The answer is that some of the framers of the original Constitution feared that if certain rights were enumerated in the text, all of the other, unenumerated rights would be left wide open for government abuse."'

    Unenumerated rights are considered privileges by authority, not rights. We would have no rights if it was not for enumeration of the Bill of Rights.

    1. Ersatz   2 months ago

      oh i think by now we would have a whole raft of positive rights - you know, the rights that implicitly entitle us to the labor and wealth of others? we just wouldnt have the negative rights that slow down the globo-homo agenda.

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      TrickyVic, it's not true that "Unenumerated rights are considered privileges by authority, not rights. We would have no rights if it was not for enumeration of the Bill of Rights." Article IV emphasized that "Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." The Bill of Rights (and Article I, Sections 9 and 10) and Article III explicitly identified some of those Privileges and Immunities.

      In the ratification debates, one of the arguments that more rights should be enumerated in our Constitution was that Article I, Sections 9 and 10 already secured some rights. The most common examples cited were re: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus" and prohibitions on any "Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law." Article III also secured crucial rights: "The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed."

  13. SMP0328   2 months ago

    The Anti-Federalists rightly pointed out that the Necessary and Proper Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 18) was so broad that it allowed Congress to do whatever it believed would be helpful in executing any or all of its enumerated powers. Many Federalists claimed that the clause was narrow, but McColloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316 (1819), adopted the Anti-Federalists' broad reading. The Bill of Rights was originally adopted as a list of exceptions to the Necessary and Proper Clause, so Congress couldn't trample individual rights even if doing so would assist Congress' use of its Constitutional authority.

    As for the Ninth Amendment, its purpose is to prevent the Bill of Rights being used as a ground for claiming unenumerated rights don't exist or that they were waived by the Bill of Rights' adoption. It is not a source for unenumerated rights.

    1. JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)   2 months ago

      Same thing with the General Welfare clause which Madison worried about.

      https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed41.asp

    2. Nelson   2 months ago

      “ It is not a source for unenumerated rights.”

      The Constitution is an Enlightenment document, hence the premise is that the source of human rights is being a living human being. No document or government gives rights to people. Enumerated or otherwise.

      There are those who would argue that things like privacy, bodily autonomy, medical decision-making, and similar things aren’t rights. Usually such claims are made when trying to prevent people from asserting such independence from government imposition on their behavior, usually for “moral” reasons.

    3. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      SMP0328, there's a lot of truth in your comment, but I respectfully submit that it's not quite right that "[t]he Bill of Rights was originally adopted as a list of exceptions to the Necessary and Proper Clause."

      So far, the best writing I've seen about rights was by James Madison. I must agree with the many who thought Madison earned the titles Father of the Constitution and Father of the Bill of Rights. When Madison presented to the First Congress on June 8, 1789, his proposals on how to improve on our original Constitution, he highlighted crucial truths about our rights designed to diminish the power of any public servant (in any branch) to inflict harm, and even to diminish the power of the sovereign people to use any such public servant to harm other citizens.

      Of course "all power is subject to abuse," and "it is possible the abuse of the powers of the general [federal] government may be guarded against in a more secure manner than is now done." “The people of many states, have thought it necessary to raise barriers against power in all forms and departments of government" and "once bills of rights are established in all the states as well as the federal constitution, we shall find” that “they will have a salutary tendency.”

      “But whatever may be [the] form which the several states have adopted in making declarations in favor of particular rights” (and whatever form our Bill of Rights takes) “the great object in view is to limit and qualify the powers of government, by excepting out of the grant of power those cases in which the government ought not to act, or to act only in a particular mode. They point these exceptions sometimes against the abuse of the executive power, sometimes against the legislative,” (sometimes against the judicial branch) “and, in some cases, against the community itself; or, in other words, against the majority [of the people to protect the rights of some] minority.” Madison emphasized that “in a government” like that required by our Constitution, “the great danger lies” in “the abuse of the community” even more “than in the legislative body. The prescriptions in favor of liberty, ought to be levelled against that quarter where the greatest danger lies, namely, that which possesses the highest prerogative of power: But this [is] not found in either the executive or legislative departments of government, but in the body of the people, operating by the majority against the minority.”

  14. Rick James   2 months ago

    But what about the sorry state of unenumerated rights? Alas, here we must award a point to the Federalists, who more or less predicted today's lopsided legal order, in which some constitutional rights get more judicial respect than others, and in which unenumerated rights get the least judicial respect of all.

    Is this where I whisper quietly into the writer's ear-mic that an open-ended system of 'rights' will (and has) led to a massive expansion of the size and power of the state?

    1. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

      In no way has Lancaster demonstrated that unenumerated rights get short shrift because of the existence of enumerated rights such that if all rights were unenumerated they would more respected. Indeed, the evidence from around the world suggests that unenumerated rights are not acted upon because they are unenumerated and there is no legal standard blocking government action.

      1. Rick James   2 months ago

        It's almost as if the social construct known as America ever disappeared that the whole "shall not be infringed" concept could go right out the window. But those roundabouts in England... amirite?

        1. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

          Absolutely. Which is why anyone in the world should fear the collapse of or take over by socialism in America. You defined the beacon of hope, the shining light on the hill, and the greatest gift for humankind ever created and acted upon.

          It was because "shall not be infringed" did not exist that the Founding Fathers enshrined it for the people.

      2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

        Mickey, I agree. Even so, it can be proved pretty easily that unenumerated rights and even enumerated rights get short shrift because of myopic focus on enumerated rights. The "freedom of speech" and "press" secured by the First Amendment provides an excellent example. Those words and their history are analyzed ad nauseam, sometimes to absurd effect. The plain truth is that First Amendment rights and freedoms flow from the sovereignty of the people (over ourselves and our public servants), not from the mere First Amendment.

        SCOTUS has, at times, been far more faithful to our Constitution. For example, in United States Term Limits v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995) SCOTUS emphasized “the critical postulate” of our Constitution is “that sovereignty is vested in the people” and that such “sovereignty confers on the people the right to choose freely their representatives to the National Government.” A “critical idea” in our Constitution is that “the right of the people to vote for whom they wish” is “an [essential] aspect of [our] sovereignty.” Any “restrictions upon the people to choose their own representatives must be limited to those” that are “absolutely necessary for the safety of the society.”

        In Citizens United v. FEC, 558 U.S. 310 (2010), SCOTUS again emphasized the sovereignty of the people (a.k.a. self-government) as the primary reason for protections for speech (including voting regarding and discussion of public issues).

        "Under our Constitution it is We The People who are sovereign. The people have the final say. The legislators are their spokesmen. The people determine through their votes the destiny of the nation. It is therefore important—vitally important—that . . . no point of view be [even] restrained [much less] barred."

        "Speech [which clearly and necessarily includes voting] is an essential mechanism of democracy, for it is the means to hold officials accountable to the people. In [our] republic where the people are sovereign, the ability of the citizenry to make informed choices among candidates for office is essential. The right of citizens to inquire, to hear, to speak, and to use information to reach consensus is a precondition to enlightened self-government and a necessary means to protect it. The First Amendment has its fullest and most urgent application to speech uttered during a campaign for political office. Discussion of public issues and debate on the qualifications of candidates are integral to the operation of the system of government established by our Constitution.

        For these reasons, political speech [including voting] must prevail against laws that would suppress it, whether by design or inadvertence. Laws that burden political speech [including voting] are subject to strict scrutiny, which requires the Government to prove that the restriction furthers a compelling interest and is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest."

    2. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

      Perhaps, but the open-ended system of "rights" was not approved in the Constitution. In fact, it is the expansive DEFINITION of "rights" that has led to the massive expansion of the size and power of the government. You have the right to DO anything you want to do as long as it does not interfere with anyone else's right to do the same. You do NOT have the right to require other people to provide you with what you want or to pay for it. For example, you might have a right to get an abortion, but you do not have a right to make a doctor perform the abortion or to make me pay for it.

      1. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

        And positive rights have what all to do with the Bill of Rights?

      2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

        MWAocdoc, I agree with your point that people don't have an open-ended right to make others pay to support them. But you painted too broadly.

        It's not true that "the open-ended system of 'rights' was not approved in the Constitution." In fact, the Ninth Amendment expressly and plainly stands for the principle that rights are open-ended. That is exactly why (as the article highlighted)
        "future Supreme Court Justice James Iredell at the North Carolina Ratification Convention in 1788" declared that "it would be impossible to enumerate every [right]. Let anyone make what collection or enumeration of rights he pleases, I will immediately mention twenty or thirty more rights not contained in it."

        Many people responsible for writing or ratifying our Constitution thought the same or something similar. Alexander Hamilton, for example, the year before the Declaration of Independence, emphasized: "The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power." See The Farmer Refuted (Feb. 23, 1775) https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-01-02-0057

        It is important to bear in mind that, Madison, himself, when Congress discussed proposed rights on August 15, 1789, emphasized that the objective of the bill of rights was, in part, to "confine ourselves to an enumeration of simple acknowledged principles," so that "the ratification will meet with but little difficulty. Amendments of a doubtful nature will have a tendency to prejudice the whole system." See https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-12-02-0224

  15. Earth-based Human Skeptic   2 months ago

    Well, we know that free speech is a danger to Democracy, right?

  16. sarcasmic   2 months ago

    This would be a good opportunity to discuss the difference between positive rights and negative rights. But that would require people who are capable of having a discussion.

    1. JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)   2 months ago

      So not you?

    2. Kemuel   2 months ago

      Congress shall make no law... STOP. Its perfect just like that.

      1. JasonT20   2 months ago

        wrong place

        1. Kemuel   2 months ago

          As a general rule, when a statute starts with "Congress shall make no law" the statute expresses a negative right. We need more of those.

    3. JasonT20   2 months ago

      This would be a good opportunity to discuss the difference between positive rights and negative rights.

      I don't know that it is as easy as it seems to fit claims about rights into one or the other category. Or, it could also be that sometimes, people don't care about that distinction. When you are bleeding severely, are you really going to think about whether it is a positive or negative right to have access to medical care?

      1. sarcasmic   2 months ago

        I don't know that it is as easy as it seems to fit claims about rights into one or the other category.

        Constitutionally protected rights like freedom of speech and the right to bear arms are negative rights because they only require that others leave people alone. Me speaking my mind or packing heat doesn't require anything from you.
        On the other hand rights like free education and free healthcare are positive rights because they require that someone else pay for it.
        If a right requires nothing from others then it is a negative right. If a right puts an obligation upon others then it is a positive right. It's a very simple and easy distinction.

        When you are bleeding severely, are you really going to think about whether it is a positive or negative right to have access to medical care?

        Everyone has access to medical care. Question is who is going to pay for it. If the answer is the government, then that is a positive right. If the answer is the injured party, then that is a negative right.

        Again, the distinction is not a difficult one.

        As a general rule libertarians support negative rights and question positive rights. Whereas people on the left and right tend to oppose negative rights and support positive rights. The only argue over which rights they like and which ones they don't. Wasn't always that way. Pre-Trump Republicans used to be more libertarian in that regard. But Trump took the GOP on a hard left turn. So hard that they bumped their heads and scrambled their brains.

        1. JasonT20   2 months ago

          If a right requires nothing from others then it is a negative right. If a right puts an obligation upon others then it is a positive right. It's a very simple and easy distinction.

          Are negative rights only those that the government is prohibited on infringing? If we say that we have a right to be free from unjust physical violence, no matter who is perpetrating it, then there is an obligation on the government (police) to try and uphold that right for all of its citizens. And, someone is going to have to pay the police.

          Everyone has access to medical care. Question is who is going to pay for it.

          You see, that's the thing. Theoretically having "access" to healthcare doesn't mean anything if your inability to pay to have a doctor save you from bleeding to death means that no one is going to help you. I don't know if you would, but I can image plenty of people here replying with, "It's your own fault if you don't have enough money. Just get a real job!" It sure would be great if our own ability, effort, and willingness to take care of ourselves was the only thing that determined how much money we make or have. They can let me know when they find a place that is a pure meritocracy.

          If the answer is the government, then that is a positive right. If the answer is the injured party, then that is a negative right.

          I wasn't premising that hypothetical bleeding injury as being due to violence. It could be, or it could be a highly unlucky accident that occurred despite having taken every reasonable precaution. So, the "injured party" that is bleeding didn't necessarily have any rights violated to cause the injury.

          As a general rule libertarians support negative rights and question positive rights. Whereas people on the left and right tend to oppose negative rights and support positive rights. The only argue over which rights they like and which ones they don't.

          I can agree with this. I would just add that there is nothing that makes negative rights more important or a higher priority than positive rights as a general rule. I wouldn't expect libertarians to agree, but that is probably one of the reasons I am not libertarian. I do view society (through government) as having a duty to protect and care for those among them that can't protect and care for themselves. That positive right is not less important or lower priority to me than my right to keep as much of my income as I want.

          1. Mickey Rat   2 months ago

            "Theoretically having "access" to healthcare doesn't mean anything if your inability to pay to have a doctor save you from bleeding to death means that no one is going to help you."

            Therefore justifying theft and slavery.

            1. JasonT20   2 months ago

              Therefore justifying theft and slavery.

              If having to pay taxes so that the government can do something to benefit people other than you is "theft and slavery", then the only option that isn't is anarchy. Let me know when you find the anarcho-capitalist utopia that you'd approve of.

  17. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

    "But what about the sorry state of unenumerated rights? Alas, here we must award a point to the Federalists"

    Sorry, but no. The lack of perfection in unenumerated rights is not now and has never been a valid argument against the list of enumerated rights. It is like saying, "If I cannot enter Heaven, I will settle for Hell." The answer, if anything, would have been to add more enumerated rights that required special protection if their lack is noticeable now. The general principle that the perfect should not be allowed to become the enemy of the acceptable applies here.

  18. Zeb   2 months ago

    They had a point, but it was probably naive and wrong. I think history has shown that the enumerated rights have served as an important check on government power.

  19. TJJ2000   2 months ago

    Indeed. And it's pretty obvious to see the attack on UN-enumerated rights is a direct correlation to the ignorance of the 10th Amendment. Which also some framers thought was over-repetition because if the authority (enumerated rights) wasn't granted then obviously the authority wasn't granted; right?

    Yet even with multiple repeats look at where we are today. SCOTUS is using tiny cherry-picked words of "general welfare" (of the national government called 'United States' government) in the taxing clause and pretending that grants any authority they want it to mean.

  20. Uncle Jay   2 months ago

    "Was the Bill of Rights a Bad Idea? Some Founding Fathers Thought So."

    Hamilton wanted George Washington to be king.
    I often wondered if Hamilton recognized why the American colonialists fought the Revolutionary War in the first place.

    "Did they have a point?"

    No, because I didn't see any real counter-proposals the anti-Federalists made for a form a government they wanted.

  21. James K. Polk   2 months ago

    Interesting article. Still, if you believe that unenumerated rights have gotten short shrift, then thank the founders for the enumerated ones. They at least appear to have enumerated the most important rights. Without the Bill of Rights, we'd have no rights at all.

  22. See.More   2 months ago

    [deleted]

  23. AT   2 months ago

    Why would you title the article that way?

  24. Incunabulum   2 months ago

    The problem with the BoR is the same as was laid out by those who opposed it - it allows the courts to pretend the only rights you have are the enumerated ones.

    At the same time, *not* having the BoR would allow the courts to pretend you had no rights.

  25. IceTrey   2 months ago

    The Bill of Rights is terrible. First of all there's only one human right, liberty or freedom from coercion. Second the Framers created a fatal flaw by not explicitly prohibiting government coercion. Government initiating force against the people is tyranny and they condoned it.

    1. TJJ2000   2 months ago

      Frankly. Between the 9A, 10A and Enumerated Powers they did exactly that. Stated it multiple times.

      The Constitution isn't broken. SCOTUS representing the Gov-Guns against the people more than the People's law over their Gov-Guns is what is broken. And it was broken by Democrats as-if the last few SCOTUS appointee interviews didn't set that into stone by asking justices if [WE] Identify-as 'democracy' RULES means more to them than the supreme law of the land.

    2. JasonT20   2 months ago

      You know what we call a government that can't use force (which is what coercion is)? Anarchy.

  26. Brett Bellmore   2 months ago

    When I look at the fact that the faction, the Federalists, who had opposed a bill of rights, proceeded to violate it as soon as they were in power, that just puts their opposition to having one in an entirely different and not even a little flattering light.

  27. NotForNoReason   2 months ago

    No it's not, it is a good idea. The only problem is that we allowed the government o ignore the last few. And that we haven't explicitly spelled out more as needed.

  28. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

    Having a Bill of Rights is a very good idea. The way too many judges and law professors teach people to defend rights is very, very bad. They blind us with our rights.

    Take the example of the opinion of six SCOTUS justices in Dobbs. They lied about the Ninth Amendment and knowingly violated it to pretend to justify overruling precedent that was far more faithful to our Constitution than Dobbs. The judgment of the majority in Roe v. Wade was at least faithful to the plain text and structure of our Constitution, as emphasized by the Preamble and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments: "We the People" are sovereign, and "by the Constitution" we "delegated to the United States" limited "powers;" we "prohibited by it to the States" certain powers: we "reserved to the States" certain powers and we "reserved" to "the people" the remaining powers. Our "Constitution" never can "be construed to deny or disparage" any rights "retained by the people" based on the mere fact of any mere "enumeration in the Constitution" of "certain rights." The Ninth Amendment means the burden of proof cannot be shifted as it was in Dobbs.

    In Dobbs, the majority opinion (twice) misrepresented that the Ninth Amendment was a "reservation of rights to the people." The majority abused that lie about the meaning of the Ninth Amendment to justify the following contention and conclusion (which blatantly violated the Ninth Amendment): "The Constitution makes no express reference to a [person’s] right to [do something with such person’s own body], and therefore those who claim that it protects such a right must show that the right is somehow implicit in the constitutional text."

    Clearly, the Ninth Amendment does not state a reservation of rights. It clearly states a rule of construction that expressly prohibits judges from doing what six SCOTUS justices did, above. This is super simple and super straightforward. No judge (or lawyer) worthy of the title could read the Ninth Amendment and fail to see that it stated a clear command about how our "Constitution" absolutely "shall not be construed." Our "Constitution" NEVER can "be construed to deny or disparage" ANY rights "retained by the people" because of any mere "enumeration in the Constitution" of "certain rights."

    The Dobbs majority blatantly violated the Ninth Amendment by focusing on the (irrelevant) fact that "[t]he Constitution makes no express reference to a right to [do something specific]" and then using the absence of an "express reference to a [person’s] right to [do something specific with such person’s own body]" to justify shifting the burden of proof to people asserting our rights.

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