Can America Get Out of the Gerontocracy Trap?
If voters so overwhelmingly prefer younger candidates, why are they underrepresented in politics?

"We have a sclerotic gerontocracy," posted 48-year-old Rep. Ro Khanna (D–Calif.) in December. Khanna's outburst on X was provoked by the revelation that an 81-year-old Rep. Kay Granger (R–Texas), who had been absent from Congress for months, had in fact been diagnosed with dementia and was residing in a memory care facility.
"I'm more concerned about the congressmen who have dementia and are still voting," joked a 53-year-old Rep. Thomas Massie (R–Ky.). Only a year earlier Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D–Calif.), who had long been failing in health and mental acuity, died in office at age 90.
At its simplest, gerontocracy means rule by the elderly. President Joe Biden's dodderingly disastrous debate in June floodlighted for many Americans just how sclerotic our governing institutions have become. Notably, President Donald Trump, at 78, is the oldest person ever elected to the office. (Biden was a close second at 77 when he won the election in 2020.) That's slightly more than double the U.S. population's median age of 38.9.
Current octogenarian congressional leaders include Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D–Calif.), who was 82 when she stepped down as speaker of the House, and Sen. Mitch McConnell (R–Ky.), who was 82 when he resigned as Senate minority leader. The 91-year-old Chuck Grassley (R–Iowa), currently serving as president pro tempore of the Senate, is third in the line of presidential succession.
Granger and Feinstein were outliers on Capitol Hill, but not by as much as one might think. The median age of members of the House of Representatives now stands at 58.6, while the Senate's median age stands at 63.3. "From 1919 to 1999, the median senator never eclipsed 60 years old and the median representative never surpassed 55," Geoffrey Skelley noted on FiveThirtyEight in 2023. As recently as the early 1980s, the median ages for the House and Senate were 48.4 and 51.7 years, respectively.
The House is the third-oldest lower legislative chamber in the world, according to the Inter-Parliamentary Union. At 66.5 and 60.3 years, respectively, only Cambodia's National Assembly and Palau's House of Delegates are older. The U.S. Senate is the oldest directly elected upper legislative chamber in the world.
In other words, the most powerful people in the United States are, on average, as old as dirt. And to quote the playwright David Mamet, "Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance." An aging elite disconnected from society's evolving needs will slow growth and hinder innovation in dangerous ways. Is there any way out of the gerontocracy trap?
The Longevity Transition
First came the demographic transition, in the early 20th century, when increasingly wealthy and healthy populations moved from high birth and death rates to low birth and death rates. Global average life expectancy at birth increased from 32 in 1900 to 73 today, largely because infant mortality rates were greatly reduced.
As the 20th century progressed, the demographic transition gave way to the longevity transition. "Whereas previous gains had been driven mainly by people aged younger than 60 years, improvements in life expectancy started to increasingly involve older people," explained London Business School professor Andrew Scott in The Lancet's 2021 special issue on healthy longevity. In 1950, life expectancy for American men and women who had reached age 65 was 13.1 and 16.2 more years, respectively. By 2024, that had risen to 19.6 and 21.7 years.
Are our politicians living to older ages simply because we all are? For a long time, that seemed to be true. Politicians of the 19th and early 20th centuries didn't generally live any longer than their constituents did, according to a 2022 study in the European Journal of Epidemiology that compared the mortality rate and life expectancy at age 45 of nearly 58,000 politicians from 11 countries, including the United States.
But as the 20th century advanced, politicians' lifespans began to pull away from those of their fellow citizens. Now American politicians in that cohort have substantially longer life expectancies than their countrymen—an extra 7.8 years. (For what it is worth, Social Security Administration life tables suggest that the life expectancies of Trump and Biden are nine and seven more years, respectively.)
Greater wealth correlates with longer lives. The median net worth of members of Congress was just over $1 million in 2020, whereas for American households it stands at around $193,000. Social connections are a significant factor in longevity too. Successful politicians tend to be naturally gregarious. Once elected, the incumbency advantage—that is, name recognition and established fundraising networks—enables politicians to age in place by outcompeting younger challengers.
Perhaps the fact that our politicians are getting older simply reflects Americans' preferences for seasoned leaders. After all, the median age of the American population has risen from 28.1 in 1970 to 38.9. But a 2023 Pew Research poll asking respondents about the ideal age for U.S. president found that 24 percent think it is best for a president to be in their 60s and only 3 percent think their 70s is best. Younger Americans prefer younger presidents, but even among people in their 70s, only 5 percent say they think it's best for presidents to be in their 70s or older.
Nearly 80 percent of both younger and older Americans favor maximum age limits on federal elected officials, according to Pew. Those findings are echoed by an October 2023 USA Today/Suffolk University poll, which reported that 63 percent of respondents favored setting a maximum age limit on Congress.
Limits on the terms of legislators have been adopted in 16 states so far. Voters in North Dakota in June overwhelmingly approved a ballot initiative that bars people from running or serving in the U.S. House or Senate if they are to turn 81 during their term.
If voters so overwhelmingly prefer younger candidates, why are they underrepresented in politics? To answer this question, two Harvard researchers analyzed the results of 16 different candidate choice experiments in seven democracies. In their 2022 article in The Journal of Politics, they report, "Almost universally, the oldest candidate is viewed less favorably on average compared to the youngest, and also compared to the second oldest. In contrast, differences in age between young and middle-aged candidates tend to produce minimal effects on voters' evaluations." They suggest that youthful underrepresentation likely involves issues of recruitment, opportunities, or ambition. In other words, politics is and remains an old boys' and old girls' network.
Gerontomania?
The Oxford economist Tim Vlandas has linked gerontocracy to gerontonomia: "a stagnating political economy that increasingly prioritizes the socioeconomic needs of the elderly at the expense of future economic performance." He argues that the growing number of older citizens will vote their interests, e.g., more opulent pensions and medical care, at the expense of younger generations' interest in education, child care, and economic growth.
Preliminary calculations suggest that last year 41 percent of Americans aged 18–29 voted in federal elections, whereas around 76 percent of Americans aged 65 and over did.
Gerontocracy is demonstrably harmful for economic growth. As "a direct consequence of the obsolescence of their personal human capital," aged elites fail to "seize the opportunity offered by new technologies and to implement the best choice for the economy as a whole," according to a 2017 study of seven European countries conducted by the University of Rome Tor Vergata economists Vincenzo Atella and Lorenzo Carbonari.
Setting elites aside, aging populations themselves may be a demographic drag on economic growth. "Each 10% increase in the fraction of the population ages 60+ decreased per-capita GDP by 5.5%," reported a team of American researchers in the American Economic Journal: Macroeconomics. The decrease in gross domestic product is due partly to retirees leaving the labor market and partly to the reduced productivity of older workers.
In a 2023 study, two Harvard demographers concur: All other factors being equal, aging populations will slow economic growth. As people age, fewer will work, which will slow down how fast a country's economy grows. But they also note that earlier studies did not always take into account how healthy aging will enable older workers to remain in labor markets longer.
Using Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development countries' economic and population data, the Harvard researchers made three different calculations. First, they assume that in the case where no one aged past 2015 levels (like time froze in terms of age), the economy would grow by 2.5 percent per year. Next, they calculate that if aging happens as expected and people retire at the usual age, growth will slow down to 1.7 percent annually. But what happens when older people stay healthy and work 4.5 more years? Then the slowdown wouldn't be as bad, and the economy would grow at 2.1 percent per year instead.
Robots to the Rescue?
Perhaps the solution is not political but technological. The Massachusetts Institute of Technology economist Daron Acemoglu and the Yale economist Pascual Restrepo found that "there is no negative relationship between population aging and slower growth of GDP per capita" in a 2017 American Economic Review study. Instead of relying on the projections of econometric models, they parsed the demographic and GDP growth data of 169 countries from 1990 to 2015. They suggest that a "shortage of younger and middle-aged workers can trigger so much more adoption of new automation technologies that the negative effects of labor scarcity could be completely neutralized or even reversed."
In a 2022 paper published in The Review of Economic Studies, the same two researchers found that as populations age, countries turn increasingly to automation to replace human labor. "The main effect of aging on productivity is ambiguous," they note. But industries that can easily adopt automation are seeing faster productivity growth and a decrease in the share of labor costs compared to other industries in aging countries.
These findings are mirrored in "Longevity and technological change," a 2016 study by economists Agnieszka Gehringer and Klaus Prettner, of how increased longevity boosts technological progress and productivity growth. In a paper posted to EconStor, they find that as lives lengthen, households discount the future less heavily, which increases savings, consequently lowering interest rates. This encourages investments in R&D, which speeds up technological progress and productivity growth. In other words, technological progress enhances labor productivity so much that it more than offsets the deleterious effects of an aging work force on income growth.
An Ageless Older Population
Automation is not the only way to counteract the impacts of population aging on economic growth. How about developing biomedical technologies that slow or even reverse aging?
A team of health economists found in a 2013 Health Affairs study that there would be substantial health and economic returns from delayed aging. The researchers tried to measure what specific health improvements are worth to people in dollar terms—for example, what a consumer might be prepared to pay for 2.2 extra years of healthy life expectancy. In the U.S., they calculated, the economic value of delaying aging by that much would amount to $7.1 trillion over 50 years.
"When aging is delayed, all fatal and disabling disease risks are lowered simultaneously," they noted. Older workers remain spry and productive for longer. Consequently, "research to delay aging should become a priority."
A 2021 article in Nature Aging used a similar methodology but substantially boosted the estimates. The researchers calculated that slowing down aging to increase life expectancy by one year is worth $38 trillion; by 10 years, it's $367 trillion. And success in slowing down aging produces a "virtuous circle in which slowing aging begets demand for further slowing in aging."

"The more healthily people age, the more they value further gains to aging," explained one of the authors, the London Business School economist Andrew Scott. If you're going to feel pretty good as the tally of years ticks up, why not go for more? The upshot: Biomedicine is not just adding more years to life, but more life to years.
The researchers also considered the scenario in which aging is not just slowed but reversed. That would mean reaching longevity escape velocity: the point at which additional biomedical breakthroughs extend your lifespan by more than a year for every year you remain alive. The futurist Ray Kurzweil predicted at last year's Abundance Summit that at least some sufficiently well-off folks "will have access to longevity escape velocity by the end of 2030." People who are not getting physically older would then be effectively ageless.
Artificial intelligence may spur advancements in anti-aging biomedical technologies. Last May, researchers at Google's DeepMind announced in Nature the development of the AlphaFold 3 artificial intelligence model, which they said "can predict the structure and interactions of all life's molecules with unprecedented accuracy." That would substantially speed up pharmaceutical discovery. Another team of researchers detailed in a January 2024 study in Scientific Reports how their deep neural network model identifies age-related biomarkers, thus establishing the concept of biological age. These biomarkers could be used to evaluate the efficacy of future antiaging treatments. Such scientific results lend some credence to Kurzweil's forecast that the age of agelessness may not be so far away.
A society where nearly everyone is perpetually youthful would not be a gerontocracy. It would, in fact, resolve most of the problems associated with gerontocratic rule.
Consider Kurzweil's observation that well-off and well-connected people will likely gain access to age-retardation and age-reversing technologies first. This would risk the emergence of an ageless elite that, like historical elites, strongly resists innovations that would threaten its wealth and power—such as the broader extension of agelessness.
The nightmare scenario of the rise of a perpetual tyrant—an ageless Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, or Josef Stalin—accentuates this concern. These are not necessarily idle fears. After all, if two relics of the longevity transition, Joe Biden and Donald Trump, continue to chase after the seductions of sovereign power, the yen for dominance will be even stronger in more malign despots. But surely there are better ways to avoid the possibility of millennial tyrants than insisting that everyone must continue to die before age 100. At least in democratic societies, adopting the already popular remedy of term limits would ensure continual political turnover.
More broadly, when true age reversal becomes available, the long-term perpetuation of an ageless elite would be highly unstable. Of the goods that people have coveted throughout the ages, good health and long life are desired above all. Those goods make all others possible. In democratic polities, the demands for broad access to antiaging technologies would be politically irresistible. As better and cheaper versions become available, the full transition to an ageless society would be increasingly difficult to resist.
Let's turn now to some of the economic implications. In a society of ageless citizens, there would be no old-age dependency ratio in which superannuated oldsters must be supported by tax dollars drained from an ever-smaller cohort of younger workers. Everyone would be physically and mentally able (and be expected) to support themselves through productive work or investment incomes. The economic drag of issues associated with increasingly aged populations—pensions, rising health care expenditures (aside from the antiaging treatments)—would largely disappear.
Since the labor force would no longer be aging, there would be no slowdown in labor productivity, although provisions would have to be made to let workers update their skills and change careers as new markets and technologies emerge. Frequent career change is already the norm for American workers. The World Economic Forum's 2023 Future of Jobs Reportnotes that Americans now on average change jobs about 12 times before they turn 55 years old. The report projects that "two-fifths of the core skills workers have today will be disrupted by technological change by 2027." It adds that "half of all workers' core skills will need to be updated every five years."
People taking advantage of antiaging treatments will retain the physical vitality and mental acuity of the young. Agelessness would change the incentives people face, not least that their planning horizons would considerably lengthen. Any economic or political setbacks for ageless folks would be seen as only temporary—an intensification of the entrepreneurial maxim to fail fast, fail often—which would not induce zero-sum worries about their prospects for obtaining future wealth and status.
Would ageless but nevertheless older people just get stuck in their antique ways as the years tick by? After all, some recent research has identified over the past five decades a stable ideological gradient in which younger Americans tend to be more liberal but become increasingly conservative as they age. This propensity could be exacerbated by ageless people becoming more risk averse to avoid misadventures that could shorten their lives. On the other hand, ageless individuals who retain youthful energy could counteract this tendency, because they have longer planning horizons.
And the creative destruction inherent in competitive markets would likely thwart any permanent reign of commercial and technological fuddy-duddies. If turnover in top management is advantageous, then businesses that adopt that model will thrive and those that do not will be outcompeted. Besides, even today youngsters don't simply wait around for their elders to retire or die. They go out and found their own companies and other institutions. Patrick Collison launched the payment processing juggernaut Stripe at 21. Jensen Huang co-founded America's most valuable company, the computer chipmaker Nvidia, when he was 30.
In the meantime, we beneficiaries of the longevity transition will be governed by a senescent Congress and the oldest person ever elected to the presidency.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "The Present and Future of the Gerontocracy."
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Not at all considered in this article is the effect of power lust on the mind and the deeply disabling effects of prolonged time in power. There is a kind of corruption of the mind by the combination of desire for power and the obtaining of it. The person so affected begins to see power as a valuable goal, then as the primary goal, then as the only valuable goal. He gradually comes to see the non-powerful as failures, as they don't desire what he "knows" is the only truly valuable thing, and he comes to see himself as a special person deserving of that power while ordinary persons lack his profound understanding of the ultimate goal in life, power. He has become a despot.
The cure for this is limitation of power in the form of cumulative term limits; that is a limitation of time in powerful office regardless of which office or succession of offices a person holds.
I do think there is a problem with politicians who simply refuse to retire. I don't know if it is the power or if it is a failure to see that others can take their place and do the job. I wish older politicians would better plan for retirement and plan for transitions. Perhaps even mentoring their intended successor.
The old guys are “just as sharp as ever”. Or so I was told.
*For what it is worth, Social Security Administration life tables suggest that the life expectancies of Trump and Biden are nine and seven more years, respectively.*
Hahahahhahhahahhaha. Trump's life expectancy is directly linked to the competency and bias of the secret service. Either he catches some radical lefty's bullet or he lives to be 806, held together by McDonald's grease and rage boners.
Biden, on the other hand, probably died 2-3 years ago. At least if you believe life requires brain fucntion and not just a beating heart. That last part can best be measured in weeks, not years.
People think power is a means to an end. They’re wrong. Power is an end, not a means. So when people achieve it they don’t let go. That’s what made George Washington so remarkable and unusual. He stepped down when he could have been a king. One of a kind.
Can you repeat your rage quit from yesterday? Would save you more embarrassment.
Oh shit, what did I miss?
sarcasmic 1 day ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
No, that would be Jesse. Tell you what. I'll post exactly zero more characters today because I've got better things to do than argue with Trump defending douchebags who will excuse literally anything the man does. As he said, he could murder someone in broad daylight and you would still defend him.
Poor Russian bio material smuggler article.
Sarc got mad angry again for pointing out normal execution of the law.
Lol, what a clown.
Attention starved people cannot resist going away for any time.
These guys are obsessed with trying to get me to read their nonsense and respond, so much so that they leave dozens of replies to my posts, and I’m the attention seeker? You funny.
You came back to see if you got reactions…..
Everything he does is for attention. Good or bad attention doesn't matter, he just craves attention.
Yes. You are. Look at your constant repetitive trolling.
How many times has he ragequit the comments now because someone pointed out he's an idiot? 30? 40 times?
Do you guys remember how Sarc made a three week performance about leaving here to go post on another site instead, because they were true libertarians and the comments here were just a hive of evil MAGA. He made a big farewell tour over it.
But after one short week they banned him for trolling and he was back posting here like nothing happened.
I remember that. It was hilarious.
"But after one short week they banned him for trolling..."
That lying pile of slimy lefty shit was trolling? NAH!
That generated a lot of grey.
Thought you weren't looking for attention.
He’s never even here anymore.
Who's Sarcasmic?
I get all of you tariff supporting/immigration opposing libertarians confused…but one tried to get me banned for calling him “fartface”. That’s called “hitting a little too close to home”…that must have been what the cheerleader he asked to prom called him in front of the entire school at lunch. 😉
“I get all of you tariff supporting/immigration opposing libertarians confused…”
They look good in grey.
You don’t have anyone muted.
No, no, you don't understand. He was accidentally logged out, and yet somehow managed to post a reply to the "grey box". It's some sort of bug in the commenting system or something.
No. Term limits are not libertarian. I reserve the right to vote for whomever I choose, as many times as I choose.
as many times as I choose.
Even in the same election if you're a Democrat.
Libertarian is about the proper scope of government, not how those who govern are chosen. Voting is not a right in the libertarian, natural rights sense. It's a political privilege.
President AOC will deport all the old white people.
Problem solved.
Old white people are the Democratic Party base.
This is stupid every fucking time you post it.
Much less consideration is given to the definition of power. In simple physics it is dW/dt or the rate at which Work is done. This carries over into the definition of government as the monopoly on harmful and deadly force, so that power is the rate at which a government entity, such as an army, can render people dead. Senile looters unable to differentiate a constant run a juggernaut of deadly force. What could possibly go wrong?
David Hogg is attempting to get the Democrats to nominate younger candidates and is meeting with resistance from the party. I hope David is successful in getting younger candidates. But also, good candidates that match the political makeup of the districts or states they are running in.
Hogg is a lunatic.
It's time for Moderation4ever to ditch the 'Moderation' part of his moniker. He's actually gotten to the point of pretending that David Hogg isn't a grifting sociopath and a thief.
David Hogg is using dnc funds to bolster his 501 group lol.
You have a lot of hope for one of the worst grifters in your party. Did you get your good pillow yet?
https://nypost.com/2025/02/15/us-news/david-hogg-uses-dnc-platform-to-pump-own-leaders-we-deserve-pac/
No he not taking funds. He is using his position to solicit funds for his PAC. You can question that but it is not a unique phenomenon for politicians across the spectrum. The real question is does he have a point in wanting younger candidates and I would say yes.
David Hogg is a fraud who began his "career" by falsely claiming to be a school shooting survivor. He is a parasite, a leech, a glory hound who has never done a lick of work in his life. He had a free full-boat ride to Harvard and couldn't hack it. Someone gifted him a pillow business to compete with Zillow, and it's gone. His only skill is grifting and living high on the hog with other people's money.
I give you David Hogg, who hates democracy:
https://x.com/LeadingReport/status/1913264812835942582
"...It's what's put us through the climate crisis and so much more.”..."
There isn't any climate crisis.
My god you are dense. He just threatened to use 20M from the DNC to support those who the PAC supports. In order to solicit donations.
Are you this dumb or just so partisan?
Hey dumbass, you can’t be vice chair of the party and simultaneously support primarying your own candidates. Lil’ Tiger Cub needs to pick a lane. If they don’t fire his thoroughly bottomed twink ass, he will likely fall in line so he can keep his big paycheck and expense account.
In Texas those districts are called Klaverns.
Once again Reason could have saved a few thousand pointless words and explained gerontocracy with four words: "The Two Party System." The reason career politicians age in place is that they control the election system and the Party that wins in district-based elections. It really is that simple. Elect all Congress critters on a statewide ballot with all candidates and all parties represented and no one party will ever have a majority in Congress again.
That is the core of the problem, but your solution won't solve it. Your solution isn't even feasible. States might be able to get away with eliminating primaries and having a single election, although the legal challenges would take years to resolve, but state-wide offices for the House of Representatives require too drastic a constitutional amendment to ever pass.
Government is simply too powerful and attracts the parasites who crave power. Since government isn't going to shrink enough to get rid of the power-seekers, the only practical solution is term limits or age limits, but those too have to be constitutional amendments. They would be easier to pass than restructuring the House into a second Senate with shorter terms.
Another problem with your state-wide offices is it defeats one of the primary purposes of having the House and Senate so different -- it forces more consensus. State-wide vs district representative creates different incentives, which requires more consensus to pass both chambers. District representatives also act as representatives for their constituents, ombudsmen of sort. State-wide politicians aren't nearly as effective. Whether that is desirable is a political question, not a legal one, but has to be addressed, just as popular election of Senators was a political question which replaced legislature election, and which may sometimes replace the Electoral College the same way.
Really? Why can’t Trump do it by decree? With the exception of tariffs you’ve defended everything else he’s done, and you only oppose his tariffs on economic, not constitutional grounds. So why lie and say the Constitution needs amending?
Every "decree" he has made cites the constitutional or legal backing of his EOs. Unlike the judicial TROs that keep getting overturned that you defend dumdum.
He’s such a worthless, stupid, drunk, shitweasel bitch.
No, every EO he makes cites his (usually completely false) interpretation of various laws. And definitely ignores things like actual laws, Supreme Court cases, common definitions of words, and basic Constitutional concepts.
Nelson, why do you keep saying such retarded shit? Explain why the TROs keep getting lifted dumdum.
Can you try to make one intelligent post to beat out sarc?
But somehow Nelson can't provide an example of when Trump ignored an actual law.
Reminder that Nelson also thinks Republicans donate to ActBlue and that Agenda 2030 is a "conservative 5 year plan":
Nelson 6 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Conservatives have 5 year plans? Where have I heard that before?
Oh, right. Soviet Russia. So it actually makes sense that MAGA conservatives want to do it, too. Authoritarians think alike.
https://reason.com/2025/04/21/pope-francis-has-died/?comments=true#comment-11014097
Poor sarcbot.
I disagree. Each state determines the method of electing Federal representatives. The Constitution only requires districting based on population, not how a particular representative gets assigned to the district. At-large, ranked-choice, online election systems would result in a number of representatives from each party large enough to elect at least one representative proportional to the number of votes cast for each party. Each winner would then be assigned to one of the allocated districts if anyone cared at the point without any legal challenges necessary to implement.
It's not just that and disagree 100% with the solution. It isn't about 'Duverger's law' or district-based elections. There are plenty of countries with district based elections that do not result in strict two-party systems. Literally every one of them except the US and Nigeria and Nigeria has a different reason why their system is strictly two-party.
It is about the parties themselves choosing how the electoral system works and rigging it in their favor without any sense at all by the people that elections are a citizens right not a party's right or a state's right. It remains a legacy of the oldest constitution in the world with no ability to incorporate new individual rights and/or accountability by government to its own people.
About a Presidential election system that requires a fixed ratio between the House and Senate so the parties can ensure they control the states sustainably. The Senate provides the incentive to control the states at the federal level. That state control determines how the House level districts get gerrymandered to favor incumbency and party control. Which also means - no new states, no new representation for the people.
Which result in the LEAST representative - largest district size - legislature of any nation-state. That requires tons of campaign contributions to win an election - puts a premium on incumbency and name recognition rather than 'grass roots' or 'mavericks'. Which also then rewards the donor class with an excellent return on political corruption.
And guess what makes that return on corruption even better - yep - long-serving incumbents who already have their name recognition so that ALL donors can now contribute to the incumbent rather than having to pay the uphill cost to get name recognition for a challenger. And since there aren't a slew of people who begin their political career and fight for name recognition at age 60, it means we end up with a gerontocracy.
Compounded by a seriously ugly generational habit by boomers who choose to ossify their youthful culture war conflicts into an institutional partisan conflict - and then chose to hold onto internal structures of power within their own party without handing any generational power on.
People on both sides don’t understand that the two Parties are corporations. Yes, they are corporations. These idiots rail against corporations and then vote for corporate representatives who are loyal to the corporation first, their donors second, and the people they represent when convenient.
Those corporations control primary elections, debate access, and write legislation to protect their monopoly on power.
We’re living in that corporate dystopia of science fiction, and don’t even know it.
You're right. There's always going to be some institutional pressures that impose themselves separately on however we may choose to govern ourselves.
It was imo a huge weakness of the founders. They saw immediately - within one election cycle - that 'faction' would organize itself into 'party'. But they chose to ignore that problem and leave it for the future to solve. To our shame, we've chosen to ignore it for 230+ years - with not even the 'well at least we gave you all a Constitution' legacy.
The easiest way to reform 'elections' themselves - would be a sortition or random selection/ jury type system. Legislatures are clearly controlled by parties and have an obvious conflict of interest in setting election rules, redistricting, campaign finance, ballot access, etc. It takes no technical skill to do any of that. Which means ad hoc commissions could do each of those - and then disband back into the citizenry where they become the OBJECT of what they chose to live under re elections.
I’ve often wondered if we’d be better off replacing elections with lotteries.
Aristotle viewed elections as an element of 'rule by the few'. 'Lottery' (or direct service) as a necessary element of 'rule by the many'. It was what defined citizenship.
They truly remained very different ideas for a long time. Militia - and juries - and 'payment in kind' or corvee labor - or 'nightwatchman state' - or 'volunteer fire department' - are part of the lottery mechanism.
'Elections' only became a thing when the notion of 'consent of the governed' replaced actual service of citizenship. It becomes easier to just abdicate citizenship to ticking a box every few years. Rather than doing the hard work of figuring out HOW to spread out the responsibilities of citizenship in a larger complex state.
Legalizing all betting on their outcomes would necessarily make them more honest, simply because of the visible math.
when I was a kid my dad said, "you could randomly pick 100 people from the phone book and they'd do a better job than these assholes." He is right
If all federal offices are statewide, then why have anymore than 1 per state?
Just abolish the House at that point.
Yes, that's the problem. Part of the rationale for having the two chambers is that their differences give them different perspectives, so passing both chambers requires more consensus. I'd rather have more different chambers than make the two the same. For instance, have a chamber where voters vote how many minor children they have, or how many acres of land they own, or how much tax they paid. Make consensus more important, make it harder to trade votes. Make them actually debate and discuss bills.
I guess I don't understand your point. If a state has fourteen Representatives allocated and fourteen are elected - let's say six Democrats, five Republicans, two Libertarians and one Green - how would that change the operation of the House of Representatives except to require more than one party to agree to any bill being considered for passage?
Because why does anyone need more than 1 rep per any given size if they are all at large?
Trashing the House would kill parties much more efficiently, if that is your goal. If all offices are statewide, then one party will represent the whole state anyway, thus all other reps are wasted votes.
"Trashing" Congress is not my goal. Ending majority rule is my goal. If no single party has control of the House then more than one party would have to consent to any bill passed by the House. More than one party would have seats at the political centers of power. Power in Congress would no longer be the Holy Grail of The People and keeping your seat there would no longer be desirable for career politicians.
Why are there 2 Senators per state?
I'm not promoting making reps at large, but it seems obvious that the reason to have more than one is to represent more of the diversity of political views in a state.
There are 2 Senators per state because the original conception was that the Senate represents the States not the people. This was intended to balance the States' interests with the peoples' interests. With the passages of the 17th Amendment, the States lost their representation.
Making Representatives statewide offices would mean largely eliminating non urban representation from the House. Places like Upstate New York and those areas in Illinois not part of metropolitan Chicago woukd be disenfranchised and their interests unrepresented.
That idea gets a firm "no" and a "go to hell" to boot.
I disagree for two reasons: one, you haven't bothered to say how "at large representation" would disenfranchise non-urban voters; and two, what I proposed is not "at large" except in the sense of all voters getting represented near one hundred percent by the party or independent of their choice. In fact, the goal is NOT to represent demographic groups fairly or preferentially but to give each voter the representative of her choice.
Term limits. Grassley should be gone.
They actually ran a commercial in his last election repeated from an earlier election of his. It showed people looking for him and finding out he was actually out chopping wood. No, no at age 92 and actually seeing him.
Only minimally better than a Dem there.
Term limits won’t change the caliber, or lack thereof, of people who seek political office. They’re all scumbags. Kicking them out every few years just means new, younger scumbags.
Is this where I point out your repeated statements regarding the good intentions of democrats?
How do you not realize yet your fake centrist narrative is see through?
You seem to be suffering from sarcasmic derangement syndrome. Do you have any purpose here other than wasting your time bashing sarc? Every discussion seems to turn into an endless personal attack and counterattack. It's very distracting and annoying to those of us attempting to make serious comments and discuss issues.
"If voters so overwhelmingly prefer younger candidates, why are they underrepresented in politics?"
Voters prefer older politicians, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that they vote them into office.
POLSTERS prefer younger candidates.
"Journalists" don't care, just so they can write long articles.
This is Ron, the “more testing needed” science guy.
Older candidates win because of incumbent advantage. More money and more name recognition means more votes.
True.
But somehow, as you state above, term limits won’t solve that problem.
Nobody expects consistency from sarcs arguments.
Eh, he's just being sarcastic. It's right in his handle!
Jesse plus understanding of economics equals you. A bad faith, dishonest, mendacious, piece of Trump-defending garbage that understands comparative advantage.
I unmuted the retard you were agreeing with. Saying term limits wont fix anything doesn’t mean I oppose limiting the amount of time these scumbags spend in office. That’s a retarded take from a retarded retard that only a fellow retard would agree with.
Poor sarc and his belief of bumper stickers, whose predictions always turn out wrong and are never supported by actual data.
Never got past the bumper stickers in his quest for knowledge.
A) you don't mute
B) even after you claim to have unmuted and read it, you still don't understand your contradiction and double down.
This is why I asked if you were going to rage quit again ti save embarrassing yourself.
Gosh, bud, I had no idea you had such a crush on me. Why didn't you say so sooner? I'd have bought you some flowers or something.
Put them on the grave where you buried your integrity.
I don't think anyone respects the moral judgement of a drunk, homeless, drug addict who had CPS called on him. Speaking of integrity. Don't think you are close to the arbiter of such in any way.
The guy who posted links to child porn respects him.
And the psychopathic liar. It’s quite the trio.
A chronic liar and addict like you has some balls to be casting aspersions on SGT's integrity.
Talk about a black hole calling a beige kettle "black".
Wait, I thought this thread was about congress? Yet poor sarcbot is attacking someone about Trump?
Poor sarcbot.
He argues that the growing number of older citizens will vote their interests, e.g., more opulent pensions and medical care, at the expense of younger generations' interest in education, child care, and economic growth.
Obviously the solution is to weight votes in accordance with remaining life expectancy.
Or to weight votes in accordance with life experience. Young voters are too fucking retarded to call a restaurant and make a reservation if there's not an online option. I certainly don't need them choosing the direction of the country.
In my ideal world, votes would be weighted by taxes paid. I fail to see how those who pay for almost everything shouldn't get a disproportionate say in how it is spent. And, more importantly, those who kick in fuck-all should have zero say in anything.
I'd just add a new chamber fox taxes paid. But that should definitely matter, and it would also publish how much they paid, putting the lie to all those claims that they aren't paying their fair share.
I would support only allowing taxpayers to vote. Sorry seniors. I would also bar government employees from voting. Conflict of interest. Unfortunately that will never happen.
Wait. What the fuck? You literally advocate checking citizenship of voters. And get angry at any audit or mention of illegals voting.
And most seniors still pay taxes. Especially ones who have 401k or property.
Sarc thinks all seniors are as broke as he is.
"And most seniors still pay taxes"
Not Sarc.
"Especially ones who have 401k or property"
Again, not Sarc.
Isn't one of trumps planks no taxes on SS??
Sarc could be the most ignorant person here. If not for shrike.
I would support only allowing taxpayers to vote. Sorry seniors. I would also bar government employees from voting. Conflict of interest. Unfortunately that will never happen.
I'm hoping that you're living up to your username here and aren't serious.
Poll taxes are unconstitutional for good reason. Limiting voting to 'taxpayers' is indistinguishable in practice from a poll tax.
I would also bar government employees from voting. Conflict of interest.
Members of the military as well? Besides, why would working as a janitor in a government building be a "conflict of interest" for voting in a way that owning, or even working for, a business that has a contract with the government would not?
Prohibition will never be repealed. (Every Republican in 1932)
It's a horse shit proposition. They may vote more often, but there are also far less of them alive.
*81-year-old Rep. Kay Granger (R–Texas), who had been absent from Congress for months, had in fact been diagnosed with dementia and was residing in a memory care facility.*
You misspelled "Joe Biden".
Remove her. McConnell and all the other old fucks who can't/won't do the job anymore. I don't even care if "they" vote the way I like. If grandpa can't drive a car anymore then I'd say he can't represent me anymore either.
And there is NOTHING positive about a gerontocracy. NOTHING. So stop shitting around with notions that older people are more active now than they used to be. Unfortunately - milennials were fucking useless children well into adulthood so they did not simply take the reins of power from one or both parties or create a new one. Alternatively - that may not be milennials 'fault' but may be the fault of a permanent standing army with no conscription.
Boomers were able to get some power very early in their lives - when the parties demanded they be conscripted for war. When 'service in war' is only about taxes/debt - then who cares what young people think or whether they can vote. Taxes/debt can be controlled by old people - not young people. That did have an impact in how those parties were controlled starting even in the late 1960's.
Why did the article go sideways talking about futurism?
Ronald Bailey is science correspondent
Well I was going to make fun of Bailey sucking off futurists harder than all pornstars, but this phrase is broken English, so I'll instead say that he failed journalism 101.
I'm not seeing the connection to the shambling corpses currently in office and the fanciful "ageless elite." It's like asking "one day we will mine asteroids, what does that mean for BHP?"
Modern Commie-Indoctrination Camps for Kids is failing to provide a US patriotic younger generation. In fact most of them come out being proud [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s].
Amazing how military recruitment went up when Hegseth ended the indoctrination.
The sci-fi speculation about the economic effects of eliminating aging Bailey gets into at the end is rather irrelevant to the question posed by the title of the article: "Can America Get Out of the Gerontocracy Trap?"
He points out the root of the problem in the middle of the article and then doesn't dig any deeper:
Once elected, the incumbency advantage—that is, name recognition and established fundraising networks—enables politicians to age in place by outcompeting younger challengers.
Term limits aren't the solution. At least, by themselves, they don't solve much of anything. They just shift the concentration of power away from the elected leaders to the unelected elite in control of party machinery and campaign funding. Those are people that few voters could even name. If one of their names was told to voters, the vast majority of voters would be like, "Who's that?"
I think that Bailey went off into the speculative sci-fi theme instead of remaining on that point and actually tackling it seems to be a because of a libertarian blind spot. I always see libertarians talk about campaign finance in vague, purely ideological terms about the right to "speech" being threatened if the wealthy and businesses can't contribute billions of dollars to political campaigns in the U.S. I rarely, if ever, see them deal with the real-world effects on our politics that allowing so much money into campaigns has.
I think the Reason wing of libertarianism is designed to make the world cozy for billionaire campaign donors.
I rarely, if ever, see them deal with the real-world effects on our politics that allowing so much money into campaigns has.
Probably because money in politics doesn't guarantee success. If it did, then we'd be saying 'President Harris' right now, and she would have immediately followed 'President Clinton'. Since neither of them actually won office, it's questionable if money is actually as big of a problem as people seem to say it is.
Perhaps it's a bigger problem for Congressional or Senate campaigns, but it would be strange if it was a problem for them when it observably isn't for the Presidency.
Probably because money in politics doesn't guarantee success.
That's not really the intended metric. The point of campaign money is to improve the return on donations. Donors can - and do - contribute to both sides. So no matter who wins, they win. What they want is to win cheaply.
They do so by trying to freeze challengers out of early funding and providing incumbents with an intimidating early war chest. That ensures that challengers have to instead go the retail politics mode rather than the wholesale politics mode if they are going to win. Retail politics is MUCH more expensive. AND they also then need to spend money on name recognition.
You can see the impact in a different sort of split - races where the incumbent wins v where the challenger wins. In races where the incumbent won - the TOTAL spent by both sides in a House contest is about $3.15 million ($2.5 million by the incumbent and 0.65 million by the challenger). In races that 'get out of control' - where the challenger wins - the total spent by both sides in a House contest is $11.7 million ($6.6 million by the losing incumbent and $5.1 by the winning challenger.
That latter is what campaign donors want to avoid because those mean it just costs a lot more to buy a critter.
Probably because money in politics doesn't guarantee success. If it did, then we'd be saying 'President Harris' right now, and she would have immediately followed 'President Clinton'.
It doesn't have to "guarantee success" to be a problem. Putting a major thumb on the scale is more than enough to weaken the ability of voters to have a meaningful choice. Not to mention that it isn't just in the elections themselves that the money matters. The policies that a winning candidate will pursue can be influenced as much or more by the donors as it is by the voters. Lobbying has major impacts on policy ahead of voter intent.
Besides, which side raised and spent more (and by how much) when you include spending by "independent" groups? How much value can be attached to what amounts to free advertising in various media outlets or platforms?
It doesn't have to "guarantee success" to be a problem.
While that is true, it's telling that in the last few Presidential elections the biggest spender lost.
Putting a major thumb on the scale is more than enough to weaken the ability of voters to have a meaningful choice.
Horse shit, and this is actually illustrative of the horse shit. Voters have the same choices no matter how much money is spent on behalf of the candidates which is exactly why it's not as big of a problem as the hysterics make it out to be.
Someone can put as much money as they want into, say, the Kalama Harris campaign making her out to be the best thing since sliced bread but this obviously didn't work out for her so I'm not entirely sure what problem you're looking to solve.
Jfree explains one of the problems that it causes to take so much money to run a campaign in his post above mine.. The choices are limited by who can even become a viable candidate. Namely, the ones that can raise enough money to even get the minimum level of attention it takes to be competitive in a primary.
Or, the candidate can already have a lot of exposure, a built-in fan base, and can get plenty of additional media attention outside of what a campaign can do through spending. Sound like anyone you know?
You're judging this by what you can see in the months leading up to November. But those candidates have already been through primaries and the lead up to the primaries where they see what kind of support (money) and media attention they can get if they decide to run. You don't actually have the choice of candidates until the people with the money and the party bosses that can help or hinder a candidate have decided who you get to choose from.
Several congressional seats and governorships saw the bigger spender lose hard over the last 10-12 years.
There are NBA professionals that aren't even 6 feet tall. Would you say that height doesn't confer a large advantage in that sport?
Why don't you look at the the whole set of data instead of looking for anecdotes that support what you want to think?
You want to argue about hypotheticals instead of real world results because here in the real world outspending your opponent frequently see's you lose the race anyway.
But sure, bring up the NBA as if that's applicable and not simply a nonsense example with no bearing on reality. At least my examples were things that have actually happened rather than a fever dream.
I'm absolutely sure you can find examples of a politician spending astronomical sums where they beat their opponent, but the fact remains you can't actually tie their victory to their spending when there are examples of the opposite happening.
At least my examples were things that have actually happened rather than a fever dream.
They are a handful of examples out how many campaigns? Anecdote is not a synonym for data. There have been thousands of Congressional campaigns over the last few decades. And despite how it may seem, not all campaigns for President over that time period had Trump as one of the candidates.
I also should have noted this earlier, but I also never once claimed that spending more money than one's opponent was necessary to victory, nor that it even would make it more likely as a general rule. An incumbent won't spend a lot of money on their re-election campaign unless they need to against a well-funded challenger in what could be a close race. But another point is that incumbents would still do a lot of fund-raising even if they don't expect to spend a lot. They could help with fund-raising for fellow members of their party that are in close races, they could fund raise for the party, or they could save what they raise in their own campaigns for future elections.
On the other hand, challengers often need to spend a lot of money, just to be competitive at all. At least, if they don't have the same level of name recognition and familiarity with voters, they will.
The bottom line is that if campaign spending did not matter, then they wouldn't do so much of it. Donors wouldn't give billions to political campaigns if they believed that it wouldn't matter. And when you talk about corporations, the wealthy, unions, or special interests, they definitely expect that their donations will matter. Even if it the donations don't have a significant impact on the vote total, they will expect that it will buy them something don't you think?
This is not entirely true. How many potential candidates have voters been completely unaware of because they were priced out of the market? While the available choices may be the same no matter how much money is spent, how much money is spent absolutely influences the available choices.
^This is the asshole supporting murder by cop:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Fuck off and die, slimy pile of lefty shit.
Bailey missed the boat on the entire issue. It has nothing to do with money, name recognition or incumbent advantage except indirectly concerning money. Donations is how the machine politics recognizes who to pay off with political favors. For the contributors who contribute to both parties, that's how they get the favors. Within the parties the way politicians get feathers in their caps in the form of the best committee assignments is to garner contributions from donors. The only way this can be set up and sustained is the winner-takes-all district-based election system.
Sounds like China is absolutely doomed. Why do we worry about them taking over the world?
Why does Hollywood keep rebooting franchises and IPs from the 80s and 90s, as they near half decade status and will only be familiar to gen alpha because Hollywood keeps rebooting them?
Ingrained brand familiarity, especially among older gen x, boomers and millennials who hold most of money. People have penchant for nostalgia for things that were better.
Most of what made America great came from older generation. Yes, life is better compared to the 50s, but only because the greatest generation set the foundations for success. Without them many of America, immigrants are nonexistent today.
The republicans can either vote for someone like McCain, a war vet with long years of service, or take a random chance on an unknown younger challenger in a primary and risk losing a seat to a Democrat. Tactically it doesn’t make much sense. Voters prefer to win with a crappy candidate than throwing their votes away to risky but better alternative.
I wish they would stop after ruining many of my child hood favorites like willow.
https://movieweb.com/the-goonies-remake-details-revealed-producer-behind-disney-project/
The Willow show was awful in every way.
I didn’t see any mention of them making all the characters girls, lame or gay. It’s like they don’t even modern audience.
They already hired sloth to star in the snow white remake
That's the million dollar question, but the billion dollar question is why in the hell in 2025 do we not have term limits for Congress?
Why don’t the foxes do a better job of watching the hen house?
That's easy. Congress members aren't going to vote themselves out of office. Duh.
Nor will they reduce the amount of money they spend.
But you think they'll vote away the federal graft they benefit from through NGOs?
For that there USED to be libertarian spoiler votes...
As "a direct consequence of the obsolescence of their personal human capital," aged elites fail to "seize the opportunity offered by new technologies and to implement the best choice for the economy as a whole," according to a 2017 study of seven European countries conducted by the University of Rome...
So, I guess it's not all bad then.
An article that will shock nobody but White Mike.
Shikha Dalmia on Leaving Libertarianism
You can't leave something you were never a part of.
That was the breaking point for me with libertarianism. They just did not take the threat of Trump seriously enough.
Threat to whom? Anyway, Shiksa, we know the real reason you left is that you're pouting because libertarians have not line up behind your suicidal advocacy of open borders.
Her and Boehm are proof reason needs to stop hiring comm majors.
The Libertarian Party has been completely taken over by the MAGA wing, but the mainstream libertarian movement didn't quite line up behind Trump like some conservatives did, right? And yet, there is not a single Never Trump libertarian you could name.
Holy Shit she went even more insane! She's like a walking "This is your brain on TDS." commercial. Jesus.
Term Limits are a hard no for me and should be for any libertarian, as they take away our freedom to vote for whomever we choose, as many times as we choose. Term Limits should be renamed Voter Freedom Limits.
LOL. So a third term for trump then?
Trump won't finish this term.
Why not?
You think he’s going to be killed?
I think that if he keeps swinging his tariff wrecking ball at the economy, the GOP is going to be swept out of Congress, paving the way for a successful impeachment.
Then we’ll have a millennial president, skipping gen x. Though gen x is used to that.
Can you point to the economic destruction yet? Using actual data?
Sarc only knows what three of those words mean.
I understand that point of view, but on the other hand incumbents, thanks to the system created by the duopoly, have a distinct advantage in money and name recognition. Campaign finance reform and other bipartisan legislation has made it nearly impossible for an upstart to gain enough notoriety to win. People can vote for who they choose, but their choices are rigged.
That’s how Trump, with less money spent than “it’s her turn Hillary “, won the presidency .
People who vote for geezers rather than to repeal looter laws get what idiots deserve. If you vote against what you value, value's NOT what you get.
Since individuals have no "right to vote for whomever [they] choose" restricting choices with term limits infringes on no rights.
As predicted things are getting ugly...
'It is illegal': Judge furious as 2-year-old US citizen with cancer deported
Federal immigration authorities deported three U.S. citizen children on Friday—including one with cancer who was expelled without medication—in a move that critics and one judge appointed by President Donald Trump said was carried out without due process.
Trump has succeeded in getting his faithful to lose faith in institutions like elections and courts. So they’re going to cheer this move along with any other defiance of the courts. And it’s not like the courts can do anything. Seriously, what can they do? Jail him for contempt? Fine him? He’ll just tell them to get fucked and his faithful will wipe tears of joy from their eyes. They also will not accept the outcome of the 2026 elections when Republicans are swept out of Congress. These are interesting times, that’s for sure.
Maybe.
The the story is new, so it will take some time to prove/disprove the truth of the story. In the meantime denial is the most effective defense, which is justifiable this early in the story.
And yet you trumpet the story here.
That's right. I said it would get ugly and the ugliness is the headline regardless of the details, but I'm holding back on my vitriol until it's confirmed.
So rumors you spread are Trumps's problem.
Fuck off and die, you pathetic pile of shit.
It's a developing story, not a rumor.
I’m waiting for Trump to trump up more emergencies that will give him an excuse to declare martial law and suspend elections, to the cheers of his faithful of course. And why not? Already he’s declared fake emergencies giving him unilateral powers to levy taxes and to disappear anyone without a warrant while telling judges to get fucked. And he hasn’t even hit 100 days yet.
But you've repeatedly told us it is okay when democrats did it first and you didn't complain.
Illegal immigration is an emergency. What do you call 20M illegals costing 80B a year?
You keep repeating this disappear thing. I've only seen it from maddow, schiff, and other far left retards. Weird.
And then we will go to war with everyone and trump and musk will take a rocket ship to the moon and sit up there and laugh at all the destruction!
See, this is easy.
Wonder if Sarc has seen the left is using the language of Hitler. I'm sure he'll be outraged. Bloodbath!!!
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-upends-dojs-civil-rights-division-sparking-bloodbath-senior-rank-rcna202622
Spoken like a true statistics sarc. When those institutions are acting in violation of their roles, they lose trust. Just like media.
Not all of us are blind faith democrats like you are.
We saw the IRS scandal. We see Santos get 7 years for campaign violations while illegal immigrant rapists get months. We saw Boasberg let Clinesmith get off for altering evidence. We saw you cheer a DA claim mar a lago was 26M and judge 500M in damages even with banks saying they weren't harmed. We saw what your side did to Flynn. We saw Mackey go to jail. We saw your reaction to asking for audits for elections (jail his lawyers and him) and DOGE (TROs in violation of laws). We see the deep state votes 90% democrat and polling shows half will ignore a legal order from Trump. We saw what Jack Smith did to Bob McDonald.
Do I need to keep going on? Because the only people who have faith in current federal institutions and the deep state are Democrats.
Because the only people who have faith in current federal institutions and the deep state are Democrats.
Does that include ICE?
Bad faith Jesse equated all institutions, including courts, with deep state? No wonder he and Trump are so hostile to due process. They consider it to be deep state. Thugs who disappear people off the street and send them to foreign prisons however are not. Makes sense in a twisted way.
You and qb look really fucking stupid here don't you lol. I gave examples of courts in my list retard. I literally called out Boasberg dumbfuck.
Here is more. TROs without requiring bonds. Fealty statements for J6 defendants. Various judges and the exclusion of exculpatory evidence.
I was talking about all government agencies. And yes federal judges are included. Want their donation records to party?
You and Mike sure do trust your dem controlled government entities.
Also funny you both blindly repeat leftist narratives. Lol.
I have more faith in ICE than I do the leftist reporting of what ICE actually did.
I can understand that.
Shocking. QB enters the chat with the story.
The mother was deported. The father is legal. The mother took the child with her. It was her fucking choice. But you go with the false liberal narrative.
Why don't you post this story to?
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article305077166.html?taid=680ca9fb0c1f32000101a588&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
Mother deported and left the citizen child with the legal husband.
Amazing you think you're not a standard democrat lol. No matter what happens you'll just attack Trump.
The Mother made her choice. The child could have stayed.
Ill even add something the left is leaving out.
This mother missed multiple appointments for her immigration hearings.
OK. That’s a different person than my in my link. So if your point is that some deportations are going OK then great. You can see who's comforted by that.
The point of the story I posted is that these people are being deported without having any time to arrange care for thier minor citizen children.
Even a Trump appointed judge is saying this happened without due process.
The ACLU said that one of the children has a rare form of metastatic cancer and was deported without medication or consultation with their treating physician, despite ICE being notified about the child's urgent condition.
Got an accurate source for that? So far I see ACLU, rawstory and Rolling Stone (in my Google search).
Washington Post is the best I got for now.
https://archive.ph/WpBQa
Thank you. That is a terribly written story that is confusing and missing important details.
I think one family had a 2 year old and an 11 year old, and the younger went with her mother and the other stayed in the US with the father. The obvious question is why, which was not addressed.
Neither was the father not showing up to pick up the 2 year old.
The other family had a the 7 and 4 year old, and the cancer claim is coming from the family’s lawyer. Assuming that is true, I find it very hard to believe the US didn’t take her treatment into account. I also find it unrealistic the mother would acquiesce with no treatment plan in place.
Maybe more details will surface…
From your story:
"The government contends that this is all OK because the mother wishes that the child be deported with her. But the court doesn't know that."
Also:
ICE New Orleans Field Office Director Mellissa Harper told V.M.L.'s desperate father on a phone call that he could try to pick the girl up but would likely be arrested, as he is undocumented.
So, the contention is that this child with cancer and some others should be taken away from their illegal immigrant parent(s) and placed into foster care where they can be allowed to die in America. That is somehow a better end result to some.
Starting to wonder if Qb has gone full shrike and doesn't read his own link before pushing the latest leftist narratives.
Nothing QB has posted makes me think they are dishonest, whereas Shrike is as dishonest as humanly possible. Not a fair comparison.
Check out the rampant appeals to emotion below and QB intentionally leaving out the mother wanted to take the kids with her.
Not to get all white knightish, but Some people are very emotionally invested in how this all plays out. That doesn’t make QB a leftist or shrike like. Just sayin.
That's in my link. And I said people are being deported without having any time to arrange care for thier minor citizen children which implies it's the deportees choice to take their children (when given no ability to choose otherwise).
Go on Mr. Twitter.... Maybe you'd like me to post the link again of how I debunked you for doing exactly what your projecting on me?
As I predicted, the illegal parents love their children enough to take them back to where they came from.
Corollary: open borders fanatics don't care.
In the same argument they will claim anchor babies are a myth.
So say the words: "I support a policy to deport children with cancer without allowing the family to arrange treatment if the parents are illegal immigrants. Also, I'm pro-life."
He can’t because that would be honest.
Sure, absolutely. They can arrange treatment in Mexico or where ever they came from. Or even get a medical VISA to the U.S. instead of doing it all illegally. The United States doesn't have a monopoly on cancer treatment, after all, nor does everyone on the planet have the right to use the United States limited medical resources.
With your comment here, you have veered directly into 'health care is a human right' which if you were at all honest you'd recognize requires someone to provide that 'human right'.
Just one more example that you aren't even in the ballpark of libertarian, which begs the question of what you're even doing here.
I respect your courage and honesty to answer affirmatively.
health care is a human right
Of course it is. Not that it should be publicly funded, but it shouldn't be encumbered either. Legally, the parents have no right to be here. The state is well within its laws to deport them, but letting them stay to complete treatment is the decent thing to do. It's a kid with stage 4 cancer for fucks sake. Time is of the essence. You dont interupt cancer treatments to get a medical visa or find a new 3rd world treatment. The chances they will get comparable care in Honduras or whatever, is next to 0.
How does this make me non-libertarian? What rights did I argue should be infringed?
As if most commenters here are remotely libertarian....
“Of course it is.”
Haha, thanks for putting this on the record.
Yes, I support individual rights. You think a government should have the power to an prevent an individual's heath care or you just didn't bother reading the rest of my comment?
My belief is consistent with the Mises intitute: You have a right to seek the healthcare you need through voluntary exchange, but no right to force someone else to pay for it.
https://mises.org/podcasts/why-austrian-economics-matters/healthcare-basic-human-right
Healthcare is not nor can it be a 'human right' as 'rights' do not require action on the part of another person to obtain them. This is a self evident truth, or should be to anyone with half a brain or a tad of intellectual curiosity.
You are a sophist, much like Chemjeff and the rest only slightly less inflammatory and a tad more erudite. I still don't think you are dishonest, but you are not terribly bright.
My belief is consistent with the Mises intitute: You have a right to seek the healthcare you need through voluntary exchange, but no right to force someone else to pay for it.
You don't understand that this is not, in any form, a human right to healthcare? Nor do you apparently understand that they can still do that, they would simply need to obtain a specific VISA for this specific thing through legal channels if they wanted to pursue it. Words have meanings, but apparently the meaning of these specific words goes in one ear and immediately exits the other.
'Health care' is a finite resource, provided by trained and licensed individuals with costs attached to attaining those credentials. It is also a zero sum game, more healthcare for illegal immigrants is necessarily less for citizens or people who are able and willing to pay for those services. How kind of you to offer their services on their behalf for no pay, as the odd's two illegal immigrant parents can afford pediatric chemotherapy without it being paid for by the taxpayer is remote. Ironically, it is a HELL of a lot cheaper in Mexico, which is where they now live. Again.
You're wasting my time and your own with this pedantic rant.
Go ahead, pretend you don't know what I mean and pretend you scored a big win by writing a verbose, didactic description of what I just said.
but you are not terribly bright.
You're so hung up on pedantry you can't see past my word play to see i meant exactly what you're saying. You make assumptions and accuse me of being not so bright....hmmm
Nor do you apparently understand that they can still do that, they would simply need to obtain a specific VISA for this specific thing through legal channels if they wanted to pursue it. Words have meanings, but apparently the meaning of these specific words goes in one ear and immediately exits the other.
How long does a visa take and how long can this stage 4 cancer go without irreversibly advancing?
It is also a zero sum game, more healthcare for illegal immigrants is necessarily less for citizens or people who are able and willing to pay for those services. How kind of you to offer their services on their behalf for no pay,
Oh you're so bright...Who said "no pay"? I never said that. They should be paying.
The government shouldn't be deciding who gets limited healthcare. That's up to the provider...and you say I'm not a libertarian. You want autocratic government determination of healthcare!
It's Honduras, not Mexico.
Also, just to be extra pedantic, the child was not deported.
The mother decided to take the child to Mexico with her, which is both understandable, ethical, and moral of her to do that.
The irony here is that you are being unethical and immoral by deciding for her that her child must stay in the United States no matter what she thinks about it.
Now, of course, this all hinges on the idea the court is truthful about her desire to keep her sick child with her. I suppose it's possible she hates her child and doesn't care if they die with strangers in a foreign country, but I think we could perhaps agree that is not a likely proposition. Especially since the father, being an illegal immigrant himself, would merely delay that inevitable result if he somehow ended up with the child and continued to stay illegally in the United States.
Perhaps she is fully aware that Mexico has cancer treatment just like the United States, and it's not terrible either considering how many American citizens travel there to get their medical procedures precisely because of the lower costs.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure Honduras has cancer treatment just like Mexico and most of the rest of the planet. That said, CTRL+F on your article for 'Honduras' equals zero returns. Forgive me if your article literally does not specify their country of origin.
The irony here is that you are being unethical and immoral by deciding for her that her child must stay in the United States no matter what she thinks about it.
Wrong again.
That said, CTRL+F on your article for 'Honduras' equals zero returns. Forgive me if your article literally does not specify their country of origin.
No big deal. Just letting you know.
The government shouldn't be deciding who gets limited healthcare. That's up to the provider...and you say I'm not a libertarian. You want autocratic government determination of healthcare!
More ignorant drivel. I worked in healthcare for 15 years, how about you? The government already makes these choices, and they dictate that to providers directly. What you describe is the status quo.
Providers don't want illegal alien customers unless they are paying cash up front because, this may surprise you, most of them are deadbeats that don't pay their bills. They don't have a real address, their demographics information is fraudulent, and there is no way to track them down for collections. There are exceptions, but they are rare and far in between. This is mandated by law as the ER must at least triage all comers regardless of ability to pay, and this is a loss for the hospital system.
Go take a look at how much the average pediatric chemotherapy regime costs, and then let me know what these two illegal immigrants did for a living or how they were already paying for their kids healthcare. You know, facts rather than emotive suppositions. Given what I know first hand from the industry, I can almost guarantee they were on multiple federal and state programs of some kind for their care. That's what happens when both parents are poor but the child is a citizen that's eligible for transfer payments, you dolt.
Also, in my experience, an illegal immigrant paying cash for a hundred thousand dollar plus procedure regime is doing more than simply working illegally in the United States. They are involved in much harder crime than that as a general rule since you don't amass that type of cash in a few short years with no education through legitimate or legal means.
If you're going to bullshit someone on medical, you chose the wrong person to bullshit with.
Good job reading.
Here's what it means. They said that no matter what they're deporting the mom without giving an opportunity to arrange for the child's care and if the dad tries to help the child they'll deport him too.
Disappearing students off the street, sending people to foreign prisons “by mistake” and doing nothing about it, busting into homes without warrants, telling judges to fuck themselves, and now intentionally depriving children of vital medicine… this is not the America I grew up in. It’s become something I read about when I was a kid. And all of this in four months? What will happen in the next four years?
Yeah it's crazy.
4 years? Don't worry. You'll be in El Salvador by then.
Everything Is So Terrible And Unfair!
Lol. You bitches crack me up.
^ MAGA response to people opposed to deporting a 4 year-old with Stage 4 cancer who was deported without medication or the ability to contact their doctors.
They aren’t deporting the child though…
Edit: and I’ll repost this from another comment - I’m sympathetic to their plight, even if I disagree with the current interpretation of the 14th, but there’s not going to be a decent solution for either side of the argument for those cases. (Either they get deported with their illegal immigrant parents back to the homeland or they get separated from their deported parents, neither of which is going to be acceptable to the “let them stay” side. OR we let the whole family stay, further incentivizing people to come here just to have babies, which is not going to be acceptable to the “deport the illegals” side.)
Disappearing seems to be the maddow approved word of the week for the leftist retards lol.
Good work sarc and Mike. Push the propaganda.
You two even have the bullshit appeal to emotion going on. Good work! Nothing intelligent to say, so cry a bit. Hilarious though.
I bet neither of you donate a single cent to charity as you make these cries either.
How dare a mother take her kids with her. We must fix this. Make the US pay for the entire worlds Healthcare costs! Post haste!
Fucking retards.
So both this child's parents are illegal and should be deported, and you want the 2 year old to be separated from it's parents so it can gain citizenship? As a 2 year old? By itself?
You should take a step back and realize what you're admitting to here.
False dichotomy. No. I said from the beginning I'm opposed to the deportations.
It's unfortunate that we put ourselves in this situation, but we did. The American thing, the right thing, the moral thing, the decent thing, the Christian thing is to let them stay, except for criminals, and correct the situation at the border going forward as Trump showed us was easy to do all along.
In which QB demands Christianity become the law of the land.
Oh, wait, didn't the Pope highly restrict residency in the Vatican? Weird.
Also it's not a 'false dichotomy' that is actually what you advocated for, you're just too emotive to see it. The fact you just endorsed theocracy is a tell.
In which QB demands Christianity become the law of the land.
I did no such thing. I acknowledge that it is the culture of the land however, or at least it was.
that is actually what you advocated for, you're just too emotive to see it.
What? Maybe you misunderstood. Here it is again. If it was up to me, none of them would be deported, including the parents. There would be no family separation.
If it was up to me, none of them would be deported, including the parents. There would be no family separation.
Right, and this is specifically what makes you a useless emotive.
You don't know, or care, what second or third order consequences might be. You simply label it all as a moral or ethical concern absent any actual reasoning on that point and think that is an argument.
It would be amusing how much your opinions are ruled by the sophistry of others, but frankly it's just kind of boring and pedestrian at this point. It's the status quo of most people.
Jesse has the right of it when he says you're a walking bumper sticker. I see that now.
You don't know, or care, what second or third order consequences might be.
What about 1st order consequences that you're ignoring? Like a dying child? And you deny it is a moral and ethical concern? Yeah, you're a real genius thinker.
this is specifically what makes you a useless emotive...Jesse has the right of it when he says you're a walking bumper sticker. I see that now.
You spend more time insulting me and misreading all my comments while boasting about your superiority...which is likely an indicator of your own insecurity...just like Jesse. How about you do us both a favor and ignore my posts?
As it stands you might as well put a stick up that dying childs ass and use them as a prop. If you view that as particularly ethical or moral it says a lot about you.
I'll take it back if you've donated to her healthcare fund though. That would, in fact, make you ethical here as it comports with your basic premise. I can be magnanimous if the situation calls for it.
Advocating for the destruction of a nation, however roundabout, is not particularly ethical to save one child by most ethical systems I've studied though. I don't trust you to accurately judge that trolly problem since, as I've noted, you are totally ignorant of all consequences of your position.
Without knowledge of those consequences, your opinion of this particular trolly problem is woefully inadequate. You might save this child from the onrushing trolly, but crush a thousand other children as a result. Is that a win? Probably not, but I could concede maybe it is by some measure I'm not considering.
While I'm quite sure you won't find information on how these parents were paying for their child's care before the mother was deported, I'd suggest it was various federal and state programs for the poor as her parents are probably very poor uneducated illegal immigrants with a citizen child who, conveniently, is eligible for those programs simply by virtue of low family income.
I'd even venture a guess that it's possible they do have the income to pay for it themselves, but since illegal immigrants income is...lets say difficult to ascertain...it's tremendously unlikely they paid for it themselves. If they did, they are especially ethical which seems improbable given they already broke many laws by being here, and furthermore presumably working here. That does not scream 'ethical' when millions of other people do it within the confines of the legal path to citizenship. Hundreds of thousands of people manage to get health care in the U.S. by VISA, these people are not particularly special in that regard beyond their likely inability to pay.
Now, if you can prove these hardworking illegal immigrants were not using the citizens of this country as a piggybank to pay for this kids care I will eat my words. I very much doubt it's actually possible though, since these types of records are usually protected information and not something that's going to get published anywhere.
Thus, with imperfect information of their situation I can only judge by what facts are available and what I know of this particular demographic through personal experience in the very system we are discussing. If you have any actual evidence outside of your personal misguided opinions to back that up, feel free to do so but the burden of proof is on you for this one.
We played that game before with Regan, and the Democrats and Chamber of Commerce Republicans did fuck all to “correct the situation at the border going forward”, and in fact actively worked to undermine the border with each new administration.
Which is why people are where they are on this issue.
this is why it's important to read the article
the headlines are just manipulation
https://x.com/michaelmalice/status/1916326408919408927
If you continue to behave like Mike Liarson you will be treated as such.
Come on RMac.
This is in the link I posted and we discussed it above. So the mom wrote a note when given no other option but to leave her child with ICE and let them make arrangements? As if this isn't exactly the intention of ICE cutting off the mother's communication.
Plus, the case sited by Michael Malice is different from the cancer case.
From my link:
“Both of these mothers were held without the ability to speak with their co-parents and the guardians of their children while making this incredibly personal and difficult assessment about what was best for their children,” said Gracie Willis, the lawyer for V.M.L.’s father...officials contend that the undocumented mothers opted to take their citizen children with them back to Honduras. In their court filing, Justice Department lawyers attached a note they say was written by V.M.L.’s mother saying that she was taking the child with her to Honduras.
As if I get better treatment than Mike, anyway. The more you call me Mike the more I enjoy coming here and revealing your sick leader's incoherent, incompetence and the weak rationalization of his minions.
It's time to wake up. Trump could have done so much good. The Dems were destroyed. Americans including latinos, black's and the young were turning GOP and pied piper is blowing it BIG TIME!
Breaking News
U.S. District Judge James Boasberg today issued a formal injunction against the National Football League and all 32 NFL teams directing the results of the NFL draft be vacated and that Shedeur Sanders be recognized as the 1st overall draft pick of 2025
https://x.com/ingelramdecoucy/status/1916197023222841689
Now that’s important news!
And allowed to play on all teams.
From the article: "[S]ome recent research has identified over the past five decades a stable ideological gradient in which younger Americans tend to be more liberal but become increasingly conservative as they age. This propensity could be exacerbated by ageless people becoming more risk averse to avoid misadventures that could shorten their lives."
"Exacerbated"? According to Merriam-Webster, "to make more violent, bitter, or severe". Per Cambridge, "to make something that is already bad even worse". And so forth...
That's hardly the term I'd use. Assuming that Bailey actually knows what the word means, with all its negative connocations, he apparently thinks that it's a bad thing to grow less liberal with age. That might be true if it refers to classic liberalism, but I have my doubts about that: more likely, it refers to progressivism of the big-government equality-of-outcome sort. And the loss of that with age, I'd suggest, is not due to hardening of the mental arteries, but to increased experience of life—"with age comes wisdom".
Well stated. Any deficiencies old people have are dwarved by young people, who are painfully gullible. Which is why the greater-evil party requires them voting en masse to win national elections.
Once you've heard the dire warnings of "the most important election of our lifetime" and "racism/facism/sexism" 20 or 30 times, you begin to realize what complete bullshit it all is. And what liars those peddling it are.
Amazingly, not only does Bailey not know what exacerbated means he also subconsciously agrees with what he's saying.
Since Libertarians are neither liberal nor conservative (just ask Nolan), it's irrelevant if people become more right-wing as they age. Both ends of the spectrum are anathema to us.
Libs deleting their “no one is above the law” tweets
https://x.com/DrunkRepub/status/1915858524342554684
One of the dynamics is that money follows seniority, and, thus, power. And money helps buy electoral success. Esp with Dems in the House, committee chairs, who got their chairmanships through seniority, they inevitably have war chests with $millions$ more than their competitors. It’s Pay to Play, all the way.
This was very obvious with Gingrich’s Contract with America, when part of the Contract was term limits for committee chairs. The Republican chairs were inevitably a decade or two younger than the Dems they replaced, and who became ranking members, and then committee chairs again when the Dems retook the House. For the most part, Republicans in the Senate, and Dems in both houses, still operate that way - seniority means power, and power means money.
RIght off the bat , the thinking (yours?) is wrong.
We know that voters exempt their own reps from the contempt they generally feel for politicians. I hear people like you talk about term limits , yet who will vote for that? The liberals that put 90 year old Sen Feinstein in, doddering stupid poorly spoken Biden,
Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Ia.), 90
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), 82
McConnell (R-Ky.), 82
C'mon, these are the very same statistical cohort, aren't they????
Simply a case of vain self importance. How can anyone decide to spend their last days diddling around as a politician? Poor dopes. They think they are "serving"... pathetic sycophant losers let them think that and we get the Biden admin where no one can tell.us who was running the show...AUTOPEN IN 2028
I would argue that a more effective solution than term limits would be a constitutional amendment limiting congressional and presidential compensation along the lines of:
* All elected officials will be treated as private contractors and paid on a 1099 basis.
* Representatives will receive a wage equal the median income of their district; Senators will receive a wage equal to the median income of their State; and the President and Vice President will receive a wage equal to the median income of the entire country.
* While Congress is in session, Representatives and Senators will receive a per diem equal to the median cost of living in D.C.
* While in office, all elected officials are barred from earning any outside income, directly or indirectly, from speaking engagements, lobbyist incentives, book deals, any position in a non-profit organization, or any other arrangement that might give even the slightest appearance of impropriety (ie buying/selling influence).
* To prevent insider trading, and even the merest appearance of insider trading, elected officials may not trade stocks or engage in investment opportunities during their term of service, excepting deposits into personal retirement investments (eg IRAs).
* Taxpayer funded pensions or any form of retirement plan for any elected officials are hereby abolished and henceforth forbidden.
. . . but, all that's a pipe dream. Politicians will never pass any statute or amendment that will limit their ability to game the system for money.