American Prisons Don't Work. California Is Trying Something That Might.
What America can learn from prisons in Norway and Sweden.

Maybe it's just a sign of our angry and divided times, but I'm finding that critics often don't read past the headline or the first couple of paragraphs before sending me a nasty-gram. So, in the interest of reading comprehension, I will start this unlikely-to-be popular column with some caveats.
I believe dangerous predators should spend their lives behind bars. I do not believe incarceration should be a picnic. Although there are some people in our state's prison system who shouldn't be there, I'm convinced that the vast majority of them do belong there. I do not think criminals are victims of society.
I also cringe at many California Democrats' refusal to take seriously public-safety concerns. I think punishment—and not just rehabilitation—is a proper role for the justice system. I also believe protecting innocents is more important than giving people a second chance. The main goal of justice reform should be to assure that any punishment fits the crime, not to make it harder to incarcerate murderers. I even voted for Proposition 36, the anti-crime measure Californians passed in November.
Yet, unlike some of my conservative-minded friends, I am encouraged rather than appalled by the Newsom administration's $239-million plan to remake the notorious San Quentin State Prison in Marin County "into a Scandinavian-style rehabilitation center complete with a farmer's market, a podcast production studio and a self-service grocery store," per the San Francisco Chronicle. The podcast idea sounds dopey, but the rest of it isn't.
The hulking facility overlooking San Francisco Bay in Marin County is the oldest correctional facility in California, dating to the 1850s. It already has been renamed the San Quentin Rehabilitation Center. By the way, the state's prison agency is called the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, not that "corrections" and "rehabilitation" have been particularly successful here—or in any of our high-security state or federal prisons.
Before you start typing, consider this comment from California Correctional Peace Officers Association Vice President Steve "Bull" Durham after he and fellow guards' union members toured a facility in Norway: "Corrections officers in California are literally sick and tired from being cogs in a machine that doesn't work—for our society, for incarcerated persons, or for guards who want a career that doesn't kill them." CCPOA isn't filled with head-in-the-clouds progressive dreamers.
Let's start with a look at what this model entails. Instead of having cellblocks that resemble scenes from "The Green Mile," Scandinavian-style prisons look more like low-grade community colleges. The emphasis is on preparing prisoners for re-entry into society by teaching them how to function as responsible adults rather than spending years joining gangs, fighting and just trying to survive the harsh conditions. These prisons view the deprivation of freedom rather than harrowing conditions as the real punishment.
Evaluating the success of these prison experiments is tough given that Scandinavian societies are far less violent than American ones. They are more homogenous. They have far lower incarceration rates, and people in Finland, Norway, and Sweden tend to be better behaved in general.
Yet this model also has been tried in the United States, most prominently in the tough-as-nails prison in Chester, Pennsylvania, just south of Philadelphia. As Vital City reports, "the rates of serious, adjudicated misconduct are meaningfully lower when the unit is compared to other general population housing units at the facility. Conflict and violence are also exceedingly rare." Recidivism rates appear to be dropping.
The latest data shows California recidivism rates falling somewhat to 42 percent, as prisons have had less overcrowding and state officials have focused more on rehab programs. Research shows that prisoners who participate in re-entry programs have a 13 percent lower rate of recidivism than others, per CDCR data reported by CalMatters. Consider the San Quentin proposal as a prison-wide re-entry program.
The state also pays significantly less to house inmates in rehabilitation-oriented settings than the traditional, heavily guarded ones. So, while the cost of the San Quentin conversion seems eye-popping, it probably makes financial sense. I'm not naïve. Often, new government programs promise myriad cost savings that never materialize.
It's imperative that the state seriously look at the costs vs. benefits, but potential savings seem real, given the potential for a more chill prison scenario. I've toured traditional jails and ones run like this new model. The latter have fewer violent incidents, are the subject of fewer lawsuits, and are safer and more humane for everyone involved (prisoners and staff).
Now consider this statistic: The U.S. Department of Justice reports that around 95 percent of all prisoners will at some point be released from prison. If someone from San Quentin moved into your neighborhood, would you want that person to have spent the past 10 years fighting for his life as part of a skinhead gang or someone who had spent the time attending classes, gardening, and playing ping pong?
This column was first published in The Orange County Register.
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American Prisons Don't Work. California Is Trying Something That Might.
Just make the entire state a prison and be done with it.
I wonder if there is a demographic difference between scandanavia and the united states prison systems.
We all know how this is going to go. They will pick people that they know are innocent, but got screwed over, and were never going to reoffend. Then they will claim success and say they can expand it to Gen pop that has the criminals that will never integrate into society. But don't worry this revelation will come long after Newsom gives his friends money to impliment this program.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Txp8B4ek_kk
Richard Pryor said it best
Norway and Sweden, until recently, we're highly homogenous societies. They accepted the reformative criminal aspects through cultural pressures.
Guess how their views are now changing due to the large influx of immigrants who don't share their culture?
Unless your real argument is for homogenous cultures Steven.
Small homogenous cultures, too, with national populations smaller than most state populations in the US. It's one of the reasons that there has been a lack of pushback on the relatively generous welfare states that they run - until recently, anyway.
If you want convicts to be rehabbed, you sentence them to churches.
Last I checked, that runs afoul of separation of church and state.
Crooks would love that -- most religious organizations are very vulnerable to theft.
Predentaries were religious institutions. The word comes from "penance".
"Maybe it's just a sign of our angry and divided times, but I'm finding that critics often don't read past the headline or the first couple of paragraphs before sending me a nasty-gram."
Correct. In this case, I stopped at "California Is Trying Something That Might.".
I stopped at California.
"How do I lie better to people I don't like in order to get them to read more of my work?" - Steve Greenhut
Hilarious
His entire intro is about how he thinks he's moderate and then he dives right into being radically retarded.
New York pioneered mass incarceration when Nelson Rockefeller was Governor.
What followed was decades of violent crime rates never before seen.
The major beneficiary was the union representing corrections officers.
Over time the drug laws were relaxed and DAs stopped demanding long sentences. Pataki relaxed some of the laws in 2004. Paterson in 2009 did the same. And Andrew Cuomo ended it, closing 18 prisons, and Hochul has closed more. The number of prisons has been reduced from over seventy to about 40. New York City’s famous Rikers Island complex is now half empty. Corrections officers have been staging wildcat strikes and many have been fired; they aren't needed anymore.
And violent crime rates are at low levels not seen since the early 1950s.
You don't show the order in which these things happened. It's entirely possible, and more likely, that increased convictions and incarceration were a result of increased crime. It's also entirely possible, but pretty damned unlikely, that the government started throwing masses of people in jail for no reason.
One way to tell the difference would be to look at the order in which the two events happened. It would be a slow increase if crime preceded incarceration, and the lag would be about how long it takes to arrest and convict. On the other hand, if arrest and conviction cause the crime increase, the lag would be how long it took all those criminals to be released and start committing crimes.
So buddy, your lack of testable statistics tells me you yanked that theory out of yer ass.
He doesn't even get the reason behind the strikes and firings correct, trying to paint them as CO's desperate to keep their jobs as their services become no longer needed. When actually, the corrections officers are striking, because the state has allowed staffing levels to get so low that 16 hour shifts have become standard and being given additional 8 hour mandatory overtime shifts has become regular. They are literally striking to work less.
The firings are occurring because Hochul has declared it an illegal strike, and has begun firing any CO's they can identify as engaging in said illegal strike. Because she has had to deploy the National Guard to the prisons to perform the CO's work while they strike.
…California Is Trying Something That Might
You mean besides emptytheprisons?
They’re still allowed to have ideas at this point?
This should help Newsom convince the rest of the country that he’s not just another standard issue leftist with stupid ideas.
How's about we first arrest, charge and convict criminals. And then make them serve the full sentences announced - no more "Ten years (actually two when all the loopholes have been applied."
THEN start talking about Scandinavian prisons.
Excuse me for not trusting the 'I'm really tough on crime just like you, I just want to send violent sociopaths to community college' guy.
$239-million plan...........
How's it a ?self? serving prison idea requires MORE $?
Think the idea sounds good.
The 'sales point' is just blatantly stupid; SPEND MORE.
Something Democrat scam artists in politics are famous for.
The announced cost initially put out there is never the actual cost. The final cost will almost certainly be double or triple that amount at a minimum.
You are far too trusting and/or never lived in California. 10X is a starting point, and it will spiral from there as they complete their 93rd ecological impact study that must be conducted by indigenous pansexuals.
Well I did say "at minimum."
How to lie with statistics, part LXVIII ... a repost from elsewhere.
This article was written in response to the general folk knowledge that Nordic prisons are much better at rehabilitating their criminals than US prisons. A study found no measurable difference once all conditions were normalized for a realistic apples-to-apples comparison.
https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-myth-of-the-nordic-rehabilitative
Interesting, thanks.
When I first found that article, it was a real eye-opener, and not just for the way statistics were abused. I've seen other articles since, both pro and con, and read them much more carefully.
When I first found that article, it was a real eye-opener, and not just for the way statistics were abused.
Not to slight you exactly, it's never too late to learn, but these Country A vs. Country B comparisons are rampant with these acontextual narrative falsehoods. It's the same thing they did with the ACA where America's Infant Mortality Rate was derided as being sky high relative to the rest of the world when, in reality, the rest of the world just terminates viable pregnancies more often (even forcibly/coercively), takes a more flexible view of pregnancies, and/or otherwise doesn't voluntarily try as hard to save living, breathing humans.
My favorite part is where people, who will lecture you that straight up executing someone for a crime has no influence on the next potential criminal, insist that 6 foot fences and a year of knitting classes are the way to change a person's soul. I don't necessarily think or agree that executing someone for a crime does deter the next criminal, but if it doesn't, your one-year paid social retreat sure as hell isn't.
Not to slight you exactly, but that is the entire point of the article I linked to and quoted, that the headline (and Greenhut) comparisons are wrong, and it shows how they are wrong.
Your "year of knitting classes" echoes Greenhut's ping pong and gardening.
It's never too late to learn to read before responding.
“Figures don't lie, but liars figure.” - Mark Twain
It already has been renamed the San Quentin Rehabilitation Center.
Will AP accept the new name?
Did they get permission from congress to do that?
Mr. Greenhut: Before you trust a source, you might want to look into their incentives.
Nope. No ulterior motives. An entirely objective uninterested source.
Then we come to this laughable question:
Somehow I just cannot quite wrap my head around the idea of anyone in San Quentin settling for a life of ping pong and gardening. I might have believed basketball and lifting weights. But ping pong and gardening? Pull the other one.
I have no problem with making prisons more humane. I think it's a great idea. But most criminals sent to San Quentin are not embezzlers and people stealing tip jars. If they had been willing to settle for ping pong and gardening, they wouldn't have been sent to San Quentin. My guess is that the best way to make prisons more humane is to stop packing them in like sardines, stop looking the other way when guards fuck with them, and protect them from each other. Ping pong and gardening as rewards won't help the typical "youths" we hear so much about.
The point you are deliberately ignoring while you pretend to get hung up on details is that people should be less dangerous, not more dangerous, when they leave prison.
The point you are deliberately ignoring is that trying to reform dangerous criminals with ping pong and gardening is nonsense.
"Forest? I can't see it. There's too many trees in the way."
Oh piss off. Go yell at Jesse or something. Your constant off-topic non-sequitors don't impress even jeffy.
Well they ARE less dangerous, we strip them of their second amendment rights, that makes them harmless.
...
The skinhead, because we're going to need more of them to help us fight against the authorities.
I'm a prison abolitionist. Executions, flogging and enslavement are all "constitutional alternatives" to prisons. Jails are fine for pretrial detention and short sentences for minor offenses not warranting the big three penalties. I'm open to banishment as well, depending on the details.
Before you start typing...
TOO LATE.
Yeah, I always thought have the reason for making inmate lives easier was to make corrections officer lives easier.
I think punishment—and not just rehabilitation—is a proper role for the justice system. I also believe protecting innocents is more important than giving people a second chance.
At which point you declare you that prisons should be community colleges with farmers markets, so that the skinhead-turned-horticulturalist will be welcomed into suburbia.
Um.
Let's just stick with my idea.
Put them in a cell, and don't ever let them out for any reason until their sentence is up or they're paroled. And no, I'm not talking about a dark gulag of insanity-inducing solitary confinement, but the most humane cell we can think of, outfitted with all the same tech that lets us communicate with loved ones, teledoc, attend online education, and even find entertainment.
Outside of a severe medical episode, there is no reason to take them out of the cells. THAT'S the problem with our outdated prison mindset. We've never moved past the whole "dungeon-style" way of housing criminals. Steven offers an alternative. It's retarded.
This solution is not. This benefits the inmates, it benefits their loved ones, it benefits the prison staff, it serves the purpose of justice, and it benefits the surrounding population.
OK, let me address the elephant in the room -- how many minorities are in Norwegian or Swedish prisons? Do Norway and Sweden have minority gangs? How are those prisons doing with the stabby-stabby rapey-rapey Muslims?
If the U.S. wants to try that kind of an approach, just send criminals to Minnesota or North Dakota, yah?
Anything a libterd in California wants to do is automatically wrong.
Read my comment above, with its linked article and extensive quoting. He makes a lot of statistical adjustments that evade Greenhut and his ilk. Whether they are perfect, I doubt, but they are better.
Did you read the other comments?
Norwegian prisons have a large foreign group.
These prisoners are then deported when the sentence is finished.
Maybe it's just a sign of our angry and divided times, but I'm finding that critics often don't read past the headline or the first couple of paragraphs before sending me a nasty-gram.
How dare you!
Let's start with a look at what this model entails. Instead of having cellblocks that resemble scenes from "The Green Mile," Scandinavian-style prisons look more like low-grade community colleges.
Well that's not really the core feature of Nordic prisons. The core feature is that they are very small (average 75 inmates/prison) and widely distributed so that prisoners remain much nearer to their family. Transition homes are even smaller - averaging less than 20 parolees. That social connection - and ability to get a post-prison job near family - is what reduces recidivism more than the amenities of the prison.
Small distributed prisons are exactly what is not allowed in the US. San Quentin has 3500 inmates. The US can do prison amenities but can't do prisons near your neighborhood. Prisons with an average of 75 inmates would require 26,667 prisons in the US - or one prison for every 'neighborhood' of about 14,000 people. You think neighborhood zoning commissions object to duplexes and granny units and boarding houses? Wait until you see the objections to a prison or transition facility.
That did happen a few years ago here in Denver. They wanted to do a 'Nordic model' transition facility. But they could only reduce the facility to a 150 unit building (based in an isolated zone that was already industrial - not residential or commercial) - because they couldn't get 7-8 smaller facilities approved and spread out around Denver. Suburbs would NEVER approve such a thing even if every prisoner/parolee was from that suburb.
"The latest data shows California recidivism rates falling somewhat to 42 percent, as prisons have had less overcrowding and state officials have focused more on rehab programs."
Silly me. I thought it had something to do with California decriminalizing crime and allowing lifelong felons to run wild for the last 5-10 years. Turns out it's the coloring books.
It's weird how when you stop charging people with crimes, you get fewer convictions.
Recidivism stats are, of course, directly dependent on law enforcement success in catching offenders. Which quite obviously varies as to time, place, and nature of offense, because law enforcement policy and priorities are not constant across any of them.
Which means any argument that cites comparative recidivism stats across different times, across different locales, or across different offenses is, ab initio, utter bullshit. There is no way to save it.
Now, if you've got an actual randomized controlled trial where offenders from the same location, at the same time, who committed the same crimes, were randomly subjected to different prison regimes, and went on to have different recidivism results after release, that might actually tell you something. (Even though, obviously, it will inherently be a small-scale pilot study and cannot be double-blind, which themselves limit what can be learned.)
The question comes down to are prisons to rehabilitate people or keep criminals off the streets. To me, they are to keep criminals off the streets and they are very effective at that.
Your opening disclaimers, and the fact they directly contradict your reasoning for the rest of the article, explain WHY it appears to you that people that disagree haven't read past the first few paragraphs. YOU don't read the evidence of having read your entire post before concluding any disagreement is a function of not reading your post.
I'd say that prisons are very successful at keeping violent sociopaths off the streets. They are also very successful at keeping frauds, scammers and other miscreants from harming gullible people as well as a good place for democrat politicians such as Gov. Phil Murphy, Jasmine Crockett, Letitia James and Adam Schiff also include Massachusetts dem. State lawmaker, Christopher Flanagan who has been arrested and indicted for five counts of wire fraud and one count of falsification of records.
They're going fast folks, going fast.
Up next Nancy Pelosi and Ilan Omar.
Has Crockett broken any laws? She's an insufferable phony, but I haven't caught major news of illegal behavior from her
Well she has become a multi-millionaire in the short time since taking office apparently, though I certainly don't know she used her political position and illegal actions to do that.
The Federal Elections Commision has launched an investigation into some highly questionable donations made to her for her last re-election.
Some of those donations came through the corrupt ActBlue organization known for its fraudulent donation records.
I think punishment—and not just rehabilitation—is a proper role for the justice system.
Sure, but the problem comes when you mix the two. If you sentence someone to life without parole, you are telling them they cannot be rehabilitated. So there's no point in trying. Furthermore, those are the people who have nothing but time on their hands and are more than willing to disrupt any chance of rehabilitation for those who might want to better themselves. So separate the two.
Take the people who cannot be rehabilitated and put them in a separate facility with windowless grey cells and feed them nothing but gruel and water until they die. And no fancy medical care, if you're locking someone up forever prolonging that process seems cruel.
Take the rest who you think can be rehabilitated and provide them with classes and places to hone skills (woodshops, auto shops, etc.) so they can be productive members of society. Anyone who starts fights and so forth... well, you were given a chance, but now you get a windowless grey cell instead.