Social Security's Insolvency Is Driven by Benefits for the Living, Not Fraud by the Dead
Elon Musk claims to have uncovered massive fraud within Social Security, but those data are already well known and not a major problem.

Elon Musk claims that his Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) has uncovered "the biggest fraud in history" within the Social Security Administration: Payments to millions of Americans who have likely been dead for a long time.
That claim seems to be based on a faulty understanding of Social Security data on Musk's part. More to the point: Social Security's fiscal problems aren't the result of fraudulent payments to people who are already dead. It is not benefits for the dead, but rather payments to the living that are driving the program toward insolvency.
"According to the Social Security database, these are the numbers of people in each age bucket with the death field set to FALSE," Musk posted to X earlier this week, along with a chart that purports to show that millions of people over age 100 are still in the program's database. "Maybe Twilight is real and there are a lot of vampires collecting Social Security," Musk suggested.
Maybe. But other explanations seem more plausible—and none of them involve the government paying Social Security benefits to people well over 100 years old.
For starters, this is not newly uncovered information. In July 2023, the Social Security Administration's inspector general released a report showing that 18.9 million individuals born in 1920 or before did not have a date of death in the program's database. That total included 10.9 million people born in 1899 or earlier.
The person believed to be the oldest living American today is Naomi Whitehead, a Georgia woman born in 1910. It is a very safe bet that everyone who lived during the year 1899 is now dead. So it goes.
The crucial question, however, is whether Social Security's lack of "death information" about those people means they are still receiving benefits.
The vast majority are not. According to the inspector general's report, 98 percent of them (18.4 million) "are not currently receiving" Social Security payments. That's because those 18.4 million people "have not had earnings reported to SSA in the past 50 years," the inspector general notes. "The fact that these individuals were age 100 or older, had no earnings in the past 50 years, and received no SSA payments indicates they are deceased."
Another way to know that those payments aren't being made is to simply look at the annual cost of Social Security. Jared Walczak, vice president of state projects at the Tax Foundation, crunched some of those figures in a post on X. In short, if Social Security was paying benefits to all those obviously deceased people, the program would be spending about $1 trillion more every year than it already is.
Another possible explanation is offered by Wired: Musk and his team have misunderstood a basic function of the programming language that runs the Social Security database.
Regardless, it's worth asking why are all those (almost certainly) dead people still rattling around in Social Security's database. Mostly because they died before electronic recordkeeping existed, and the government bureaucracy has little incentive to fix the problem.
The inspector general report estimates that it would cost between $5.5 million and $9.7 million to fix those discrepancies in the database. When a similar report was published in 2015, the Social Security Administration declined to do anything about it, due to the expected cost and because the administration "believed a regulation would be required to allow it to add death information to these records."
On one hand, that's a bit of a funny commentary on the state of the federal bureaucracy: the Social Security Administration can't acknowledge reality—that is, they can't officially say everyone who was born before 1900 is now dead—without a new regulation telling them to do so.
The problem is actually a bit more complicated. If the information about those 18 million people doesn't exist and can't be sourced, those bureaucrats would be quite literally filling in fraudulent death information—and thus they are understandably unwilling to do it.
But, again, this doesn't mean fraudulent payments are being made to those people. By Social Security policy, benefits are automatically terminated when someone reaches age 115—unless it can be verified that the beneficiary is still alive.
All of this seems like an opportunity for DOGE—which is just a rebranded version of the U.S. Digital Service, an Obama-era agency meant to streamline these sorts of bureaucratic conundrums—to scrub the database and improve the quality of the government's information.
That would be a useful task, even if it isn't blocking any wasteful spending. As that same 2023 inspector general report also notes, all those legitimate Social Security numbers are floating around out there "hampers…efforts to prevent and detect fraud and misuse."
There are almost certainly some fraudulent payments going out the door, of course. Any massive government bureaucracy is susceptible to fraud. Even though the data Musk has shared is not proof of the "biggest fraud in history," that doesn't mean there isn't fraud to be rooted out.
However, Social Security's biggest problem isn't payments to the dead—it is payments to the living.
Last year, Social Security distributed more than $1.4 trillion in benefits to more than 68 million Americans, mostly retirees (the program also pays benefits to some disabled people who are unable to work). Current workers had a little less than $1.3 trillion extracted from their paychecks to fund the program. Obviously, that math doesn't balance.
Last year was no exception. Social Security has been running annual deficits since 2010, and the average Social Security recipient collects significantly more in benefits than he or she contributed in payroll taxes. That's why Social Security is spiraling toward insolvency, which will hit in the early 2030s. When it does, beneficiaries will have their checks automatically trimmed by about 20 percent.
Cleaning up the program's databases and rooting out fraud is worthwhile, but the problem with Social Security is not a secret. It is an outdated program designed for a different era that is currently providing overly generous benefits to the wealthiest cohort of people in American history. Fixing those problems will require much more than cutting off mostly nonexistent benefit payments to people long dead—it will require phasing out Social Security, giving younger workers better options to save for retirement, and means-testing benefits so the government can stop robbing relatively poorer workers to fund the lavish retirements of wealthy seniors.
It's great that Musk is turning the DOGE's attention to Social Security. And he's right that it is a major scam—but he's still only scratching the surface.
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EB;dr. Eric, you stupid retard, you do realize that if you remove the dead people, Social Security would be less insolvent than it is currently?
Are you reluctantly or strategically stupid?
The push back on any finding of fraud and waste from "libertarians" has been unreal. I understand their contrarian nature, but get bent Boehm.
This is just exposing Boehm, Lancaster, Sullum and the rest for what they actually are.
Like we didn't already know. Go back to the Biden years. Their positions were no different.
They're not libertarians. They're marxists who want to get high all the time.
Last year, SS took in $1.25 trillion (old age and disability lines of receipts), and outlays were $1.51 trillion, per the Treasury's September 2024 statement.
So it raises the question, how much would cutting down fraudulent payments to zero, assuming it can be done, would reduce that delta?
Based on prior estimates, it would set the delta to near zero.
"Based on prior estimates, it would set the delta to near zero."
Based on whose prior estimates? Elon Musk's? Yours?
Red Socks White Privilege wrote, "Last year, SS took in $1.25 trillion (old age and disability lines of receipts), and outlays were $1.51 trillion, per the Treasury's September 2024 statement."
So that's a delta (deficit) of $251 billion (for the single fiscal year).
Per the Social Security Administration:
"From FYs 2015 through 2022, SSA estimates it made nearly $72 billion in improper payments, most of which were overpayments. While this is less than 1 percent of the total benefits paid during that period, at the end of FY 2023, SSA had an uncollected overpayment balance of $23 billion."
https://oig.ssa.gov/news-releases/2024-08-19-ig-reports-nearly-72-billion-improperly-paid-recommended-improvements-go-unimplemented/#:~:text=From%20FYs%202015%20through%202022,overpayment%20balance%20of%20$23%20billion.
That's not even close to the $251 billion deficit for the latest fiscal year alone.
The government's report is not honest, as Elon and DOGE have exposed. Shame you on for lying.
The IG report.
Eric, you appear to lack self awareness. How could you have typed that “ but those data are already well known and not a major problem“ without realizing the inanity of that statement?
…but he's still only scratching the surface.
And they need to slow down and get permission from Congress!
Libertarians for corrupt processes and fraud!
Inaction is the greatest freedom beltway libertarians see.
"DOGE—which is just a rebranded version of the U.S. Digital Service, an Obama-era agency meant to streamline these sorts of bureaucratic conundrums."
So the Dems should love DOGE, I wonder why they don't?
Because they are actually doing something this time?
Ox's will be gored, and politicians and their catamite [Tony, MG, et al will know what that means] media are up in arms over the changes coming.
It is not "just a rebranded version of the U.S. Digital Service". It has a different name, different people, and completely different mission.
Lets say I had a "Department of Playing with Puppies" and I took all the puppy fans out, replaced them all with kitten haters, and renamed it "Department of Kitten Punting", is the one just a rebranded version of the other?
Or a "Department of Making More Government Public Employee Union Jobs" that digitizes a century-old bureaucracy, and replaced it with a "Department of Firing Lots of Unneeded Government Workers," is one just a rebranded version of the other?
You stupid Fvck, the USDS was created to - modernize info systems and eliminate waste.
Are you telling me that Government Bureaucracies should go away when there is personnel turnover? Because we could all get behind that
Have you figured out who runs it yet?
I have not.
Let us know when you get to the bottom of that.
You joke but this is real. The WH won't say who is running DOGE other than say it is not Musk.
You’re making shit up, MollyTony.
Here you go Tony.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-imposes-vision-america-departure-term-stumbles-118953426?cid=social_twitter_abcn
While you're at it, can you shed light on who was running the executive branch from 2021 to 2024?
Oh come on, this is an absurd question that you know the answer to, it was George Soros.
Why is this question absurd, but the one above is real?
Because in reality the WH won't say who is running DOGE. It is unheard of for the WH to decline to say who running point on such an important department.
The notion of Biden being so out of it that he was not in charge is more of a meme than reality. Yes he was old and probably did not have the energy to commit as many hours per day to being president than would be ideal, but I have no doubt that he was still in charge.
They’ve said many times. You, as usual, fail to listen.
"but I have no doubt that he was still in charge."
You have faith IOW, how cute. Parochial but cute.
You must be pissed about Kamala's Koup then? No?
I'm still pulling for him to run again in '28. "Justice for Joe"
The notion of Biden being so out of it that he was not in charge is more of a meme than reality
Did you listen to this person speak at any point during 2024? (This is a rhetorical question; we all know you're bullshitting)
The notion of Biden being so out of it that he was not in charge is more of a meme than reality.
Oh wow.
Would this even fool a CNN viewer anymore?
I gotta add that it is both hilarious and strange watching Democrats bending over backwards to defend bureaucracy and entrenched alphabet institutions.
My how the turntables.
Fix and hurt some now, or keep kicking the political can down the road until it hurts like hell; and we should all know that Congress isn't ever going to do anything, until a cadre of politicians can declare a "crisis" and swoop in like the proverbial man on horseback with a regulatory state we cannot even imagine.
Meanwhile our Fourth Estate focusing on such things as today's NYT opinion page:
"The Toxic Male is Ready for His Closeup"
"Ye and the Limits of Free Speech Online"
"A U.S. Betrayal is Surreal for Europeans"
"Trump and Musk, C0-Presidents"
"Vance's Munich Disgrace"
So the question is...if SSA knew this was a problem in 2023, why didn't they fix it? Seriously, this is just a database flag....BFD.
Did no one have the common sense to say....just flip the flag to deceased for every person 130 years or older?
WTF are these people doing all day?
The "150 year old" people are not really that age. It is an artifact of how the database works. An blank brithdate shows up as about 150 years old.
He knows that. So why didn't they fix it when they found it?
Because it is written in COBOL an almost all the COBOL programmers are pushing up the daisies. COBOL is not taught in college and it is not used other then old legacy systems.
If you try to "fix" this you risk creating even more problems.
They're not 'fixing' anything in COBOL.
They are just inputting the data into the field. Why are they not doing that? If there's no birthdate . . . how are they verifying these people are eligible in the first place?
Errors like this would get you fired / prosecuted in the real world.
It's Molly she is an idiot. You have a good question. Better question-why hasn't the same transferred to something that is current and fixable?
Let's pretend for a moment because COBOL is no longer taught in college that it's unknowable... I guaran-damn-tee you if you incentivize some contractor with cash to become proficient in COBOL programming, they'll figure it out and fix this faster than Congress can solve the problem. Why do people pretend everything is undoable? If a bunch of grandpa's friends figured it out, then so can some twenty something coder. Hell, AI could probably write the code with some good prompting. Find a textbook in a used bookstore somewhere and scan it in with OCR, whatever. Figure it out. "It's hard" isn't an answer, it's a fucking excuse.
In the run up to the Year 2000 there was concern that when the year switched over to 00 it would crash databases and computer systems. In 1999 I ran into a guy that I went to high school with. We started talking and I asked him what he was doing now? He said "Fixing COBOL computer programs so that they won't crash next year." He was making $250 an hour as a consultant. I started laughing. He asked what was so funny? I asked him how he got through his Data Processing class in high school? He thought for a minute and then he started laughing. I had tutored him for the class.
“ Why do people pretend everything is undoable?”
They don’t. As the saying goes, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. With a 115 year old threshold and the problem based largely on non-digital records, you can spend nothing and the problem will take care of itself or spend millions to solve it now. What’s the net savings and what’s the opportunity cost of those budget dollars?
You know that the narrative that it's a default figure or nobody knows COBOL is beyond ridiculous, right?
There's a thousand courses on YouTube and tens of thousands of programmers worldwide who use it for work.
“You know that the narrative that it's a default figure … is beyond ridiculous, right?
A default figure? Do you mean an established level of fraud? That’s an important number to know, since no system is fraud-proof. Whether that number unexpectedly large is a pretty important thing to know. It isn’t ridiculous at all, it’s exactly where a cost/benefit analysis of spending money to reduce fraud would start.
Thinking 0% fraud is possible or that reducing it further would cost nothing, however, IS beyond ridiculous.
“ or nobody knows COBOL”
I really don’t get the COBOL argument. It seems as ridiculous to me as it does to you, which is why I haven’t said a word about it. Why tell me how ridiculous it is? I agree.
Holy fuck, you're stupid tony.
https://www.jeffersonstate.edu/cobol/
https://www.classcentral.com/subject/cobol
There are hundreds of cobol courses online.
Do you have any idea how idiotic that sounds to a normie? =
Because it is written in COBOL an almost all the COBOL programmers are pushing up the daisies. COBOL is not taught in college and it is not used other then old legacy systems.
and you know this how (when there are 200+ year olds listed) since COBOL programmers are pushing up daisies =
The "150 year old" people are not really that age. It is an artifact of how the database works. An blank brithdate shows up as about 150 years old.
Right, but when I wrote a program, I'd set it so that it was really obvious, like 999, not 150. Sloppy and stuck in bureaucratic hell.... must be government.
Then they can fix the 'blank birthdate'.
I bet if you flipped the 'alive/dead' flag to 'dead' those people could provide a birthdate real fast.
No they can't, because no one on planet earth can understand COBOL - it might as well be the fucking voynich manuscript.
- tonygodiva
The last COBOL programmer died in the late Roman Republic.
I love that Molly (Engineering Phd) can't have the answer be - just enter a birthdate.
I sincerely doubt MoronGodiva is an engineer of any kind.
As a contractor who got rich 'fixing' the Y2K bug, I wonder if some (all?) of this is just from a bad Y2K window, or maybe poor data entry edits.
Has Elon and the magicians said all those people are drawing benefits, or just in the database like all working citizens?
If you ran a business, and you found these types of errors in the accounting department, people would be fired and probably prosecuted.
Had you read the article you would understand that declaring a person dead is not as easy as flipping a flag. There are laws that directly deal how a person is declared dead. The article noted that most of the dead people in the database are not getting SS checks. So, in the interest of efficiency it seems best to focus on the small percentage that may be dead and still getting checks. This is also important because if checks are still going out someone is likely collecting them. It not a regular occurrence but every few years there a case of a child hiding mom's or dad's corpse to continue to get their SS check.
SS agency doesn't declare people dead.
But they have a fairly simple process for being notified that someone is declared dead - and its a fairly simply process to push the paperwork and actually mark them as dead in the system.
Its also a simple process to note when someone is marked as over 100 and then do a 'are you still alive' verification like, at the centenary and maybe once a decade after.
“ But they have a fairly simple process for being notified that someone is declared dead”
And that requires … a valid, legal death certificate. Where are they getting that from?
So write a law that says if you're older than 110 years old, you'll be assumed dead, unless you submit form XYZ123 with proper proof. Then implement it. The ten old people left at 110 can even have a government paid ride to the nearest SSI office if need be. WTF? Find a solution instead of an excuse.
"So write a law " that Congress's job. As the problem was known back when reported by the inspector general, it seems that Congress was not interested in addressing the problem. Not surprising as Congress seem to have little interest in any actual work.
No law is needed. Just enforce what we already have and call out fraud for what it is.
The resident gaslighter is back; guess he's gotten his talking points to try to foist on the unsuspecting. What's the going rate for doing that nowadays?
Like most of the idiots, it apparently works to convince sarc.
The article noted that most of the dead people in the database are not getting SS checks.
No widespread fraud.
There has never been a system in the history of the world that has ever prevented fraud. There never will be. So yes, whether the fraud is huge (widespread fraud) or small (expected levels of fraud) is the only relevant question, since “no fraud” is literally impossible.
Better not try then, right? It's too diSrUpTiVE.
That doesn’t even bear a passing resemblance to what I said.
What I’ve said, here and elsewhere in the thread, is that we need to know whether it’s worth it to spend money to decrease the fraud rate by a percentage point or two. It’s called a cost/benefit analysis and it’s a completely normal thing to do when deciding whether or not to spend money to address an issue.
Or, colloquially, “Is the juice worth the squeeze?”.
Dumbass, SS merely gets notified that someone is dead with proper paperwork from a coroner (who declared the person deceased). After that, yes, it is as easy as flipping a switch.
Yes, you are right that a corner has to declare a person as dead, but does the corner have to inform SS? I think that is the question. My experience with the death of my parents was that I and my siblings had to inform SS. I remember getting a number of death certificates to show the bank and the other institutions that had financial relationships with my parents. In most cases the funeral home operators take care of ordering you the certificates as part of the funeral package.
It must be done regardless of who reports it. Don't dodge the process.
With brother-in-law, when I contacted SS after his death, they told me the cremation service had sent them a copy of the death certificate and the payments were stopped. The only times there might be a problem is when the funeral homes or equivalent don't notify SS, or a lazy SS clerk doesn't enter the death certificate into the computer. But then there must also be relatives or estate administrators that cash checks or continue taking direct-deposited money from the deceased's accounts - and they must know that is theft.
“ Did no one have the common sense to say....just flip the flag to deceased for every person 130 years or older?”
It mentioned in the article that there is already a block at 115 years old.
The block is on sending out money, not marking them as dead.
Kill Social Security! It's unconstitutional and a bloated mess.
I'm sure voter databases are better maintained. Best not waste anytime looking at those.
Really? You don't say!
If already well known, why hasn't it been eliminated?
You admit it's massive fraud, but say it's not a major problem. Some cognitive dissonance going on there, Eric Boehm.
Repeating Elon’s claim is not “admitting” anything. You’re as honest as Jesse. The part you missed (or are lying about) is that being in the database doesn’t mean they’re getting checks.
Hey buddy. How upset are you even Sullim understands the issue of article 2 powers better than you?
You're consistency of always being wrong is amazing.
I do enjoy watching you defend an incompetent government though. Totes libertarian. Notice how you're using the same arguments and are on the same side as Molly. Lol.
I’m not defending anything. Just saying the truth, which is that being in the database doesn’t equate to getting a check. Elon is being misleading and you’re flat out lying. Must be a day ending in’y’.
Your outrage against the people finding and exposing errors is about 80% of your posts lately. Your anger at what is exposed is 0%
But then again you think if you say something utterly dishonest but obvious to everyone else, it makes it true.
Sorry bub but you’re wrong as always. No outrage or anger. Just bafflement at you and the other Trump defenders believing and spreading things you know are not true. Trumpism truly is a religious faith.
Drinking already? Shit, man, it’s not even 5pm in Maine.
Lol. Never change.
Your lack of self awareness is amazing.
If they aren’t getting checks, why are they on the list?
Because everyone who has ever worked is on the list. That’s kinda the point of the system, as it was designed.
If you look at the numbers, you would know that’s not true.
What are you talking about? If you have worked, you are on the SS rolls. That’s how the system works.
The breakdown (by age group) I saw had two people on the list that are older than the country, just sayin.
And? Obviously a typo, or bad handwriting from the pre-typewriter days. It’s proof that errors exist, nothing more. You’re trying to turn it into some vast conspiracy of fraud.
I bet you scream the loudest when an error is made on your paycheck.
No, I just point it out and have them correct the error. That’s how you should deal with simple mistakes.
You’re trying to turn it into some vast conspiracy of fraud
You absolutely know it is some vast conspiracy of fraud, and the only reason I can imagine you're trying to minimize it is because you're either in on the grift or you're paid to. And you don't sound very rich so I am guessing the latter.
I retired at 45 and haven’t planned on Social Security as part of my retirement plan, so what does that tell you?
There isn’t a vast conspiracy of fraud. There are people defrauding Social Security because any time there’s money involved, there will be fraud. It’s not only inevitable, it’s unavoidable. There’s never been a fraud-proof system invented. Ever. In the entire history of mankind. And I’m certain there never will be.
If you think it’s possible to create a fraud-proof system, you should do it. Every company ever would pay for it. But they wouldn’t pay more for it than they were already losing to fraud.
That’s called a cost/benefit analysis. And that’s what SS needs to do regarding fraud. If you want to spend $.80 to stop $1 in fraud, the question isn’t just “is it worth it”. It’s also “what could we do with that money that would give us a better return?”.
Anyone who, in talking about a complex issue, says “All you have to do is …” is missing something. Anyone who says, “So you don’t care about …” when they’re told it isn’t worth the cost is a zealot or an idiot.
What is the fraud rate? What would it cost to reduce it one percent? How about two percent (because it gets harder and more costly the further you try to reduce it)? How else could those dollars be spent? Would that give a better benefit for the same cost? These (and many more) are the questions a serious person would actually ask.
Are you a serious person?
You said the rolls are just of people who had worked. Well there’s no way someone that would have died 100 years before SS even came into existence could be a registered worker.
If they can’t even competently handle that, there’s no way I trust that they are competently catching other things. Non”vast conspiracy” needed (and I’ll note I made no such inference).
I didn’t say that the rolls were *only* of people who had worked. I have no idea who else would be on the rolls. I said anyone who has worked would be in the rolls, although I guess I should have qualified that anyone who has worked *since 1935* is on the SS rolls.
No one said anything about people who died 100 years ago.
“…but that data is already well known…”
That’s the admission sarc, just so you know.
Yep, that's it, thanks.
Dumbshit. Read the fucking quote. He says "claim[sic]" at the beginning, then admits it's true, then says it's not a major problem.
sarcasmic, assume I agree = The part you missed (or are lying about) is that being in the database doesn’t mean they’re getting checks.
Shouldn't we find out ASAP (meaning Trump Time)?
"No widespread fraud"
.... so, I guess it's ok.
MOSTLY peaceful protests.
Died WITH Covid.
VERY FEW illegals on the voter rolls.
Voted for (your Democrat candidate here) RELUCTANTLY AND STRATEGICALLY.
Boy, authoritarian lefties sure do love qualifiers.
“ No widespread fraud"
.... so, I guess it's ok.”
Nope. But zero fraud is literally impossible. No system has ever existed that can’t be scammed. If you start from the reasonable premise that there will always be some fraud, making sure it isn’t a systemic or widespread problem is the goal.
Being careless with my money is not acceptable.
You believe there can be zero fraud? How much money are you willing to spend to fail at that goal? Because it will cost money to do what you say you want to do. Nothing is free.
Not DLAM, but I don’t expect there will ever be 0% due to the nature of systems, bureaucracy, and volume.
I think we can all agree that 5-10 percent is too damn much though.
I believe the rate they discussed was 2% of the total number of people not declared dead drawing checks. That seems reasonable.
I’ve only worked in corporate jobs, but 5% wouldn’t raise many eyebrows. There’s a weird assumption that companies have stricter limits for things like this. That’s not true. They just know that inefficiencies will happen (and grow as the system gets bigger) and plan for it. It’s an assessment of “is it worth the time, effort, and money to fix it” approach.
I don’t know how much it would cost to drop the rate from 5% to 3%, which would be acceptable to anyone with reasonable expectations, but it probably would end up being a break-even proposition.
If there were some numbers to show it would be cost-effective, I’d be all for it. But screaming to the clouds, “They're wasting money” isn’t a valid analysis. “We would net $X million/billion” is.
So what would it cost to drop the rate 2-3%? What would the savings be? How many new people would we have to hire? What are the long-term costs? And what will happen if we do nothing?
It seems like this is a problem that, as the number of people from pre-digital years drops, will slowly resolve itself. Do you have data that suggests otherwise?
We will now withdraw 2% from your paychecks to help cover that. Seems reasonable.
If you think that, you’re a fool or an idiot. Although, based on your comments, the latter is pretty much a lock.
https://oig.ssa.gov/news-releases/2024-08-19-ig-reports-nearly-72-billion-improperly-paid-recommended-improvements-go-unimplemented/#:~:text=From%20FYs%202015%20through%202022,overpayment%20balance%20of%20$23%20billion
Per this IG report, they paid nearly 5% (72/1470) of their budget improperly. And that’s just what they caught themselves last year.
Unless I did my math wrong.
I’m certain the “improperly” payments are more than just fraudulent payments to dead people. So you’re trying to take the total fraud rate through the whole system and insinuate it’s just dead people pulling checks.
On a system this large, 5% isn’t an unexpected amount. That said, the question isn’t “is that too much?”. It’s “How much will it cost to bring it down and would that money give a better return if spent elsewhere?”.
Those two questions are also known as a cost/benefit analysis and the opportunity cost. If you only say, “There’s fraud! That has to be stopped!”, and don’t consider whether it’s worth spending money and resources based on the expected return for that spending, you’re not being a serious person.
How much would it cost to stop the first $10 billion? The second $10 billion? Because each dollar will cost more than the last to stop as the low-hanging fruit gets picked off and stopping the better scammers takes more people and money.
So what would it cost to decrease the fraud rate from 5% to 3% ($72 billion to $43.2 billion? What would spending the same amount of money elsewhere result in?
If you’d ever done budgeting in a business setting, your analysis wouldn’t be so shallow. You’d realize that every decision on spending has to consider more than just “is this something that we want to happen?”.
If you start from the reasonable premise that there will always be some fraud, making sure it isn’t a systemic or widespread problem is the goal.
And how does one go about doing that, if every time they look and start identifying things, dumbasses like you just say stupid shit like "well, perfection isn't possible."
It’s pretty basic analysis. Taught at pretty much every business major in the world. No one has said anything like what you’re claiming. Identifying fraud is the first step. But to skip straight to “stop it from happening” is mindless. Just doing a basic cost/benefit analysis and determining the opportunity cost of what you want to spend are the most basic steps.
So tell me, how much would it cost to decrease the fraud rate from 5% to 3%? Do you have any idea? Because I don’t, but I’m also not so stupid to believe that it’s a good way to spend money.
Well damn! Trump didn't need Musk and the DOGE team at all. He could have just asked Boehm where the SS fraud was located. He has known about it for years.
Libertarians are screaming, "We didn't mean THAT big government, fraud, and spending bloat! Cut elsewhere....... No, not there!".
Our nation has the best chance since the 1960s to cut regulations and government spending and so-called Libertarians are objecting because "orangemanbad". I'm beginning to believe their party is a scam and based upon nothing but lies (just like the other parties).
It's easy to "talk" about change, and push articles with the Title of "Get rid of X alphabet agency" [as Reason did], but when it comes to actually doing it they're all scared shitless of losing the status quo, and what it will mean for them.
Agree this is the best opportunity we've ever had to right the ship and avoid catastrophe [magic money tree notwithstanding]; but those in power and position are going to fight it every step of the way, and call it "saving democracy" or similar nonsense.
How dare you contradict the narrative with facts and reasoning? You’re supposed to get angry and emote!
Why are you so against auditing the government and improving systems to limit fraud and waste? You're not a libertarian. Neither is Eric. You're just making constant excuses for government errors.
As always that’s a great retort to something no one said.
It is based on the totality of your posts dumbass. You've spent almost all your time here attacking Trump, DOGE, and Elon, screaming to slow down, and zero time saying to fix the fucking errors.
It is ironic especially in light of you blaming Trump for all covid spending for 6 years while all of us pointed to Congress. Now you magically found out congress has a role, so Trump shouldn't do anything. Nothing changed except the who in how you deconstruct an issue.
Most of us are saying the audit and cuts being done are good, but congress needs to do more. Consistent with what we've said for decades.
You magically switched from the president's fault to the President shouldn't do anything and wait for congress.
You're such a pathetic shit weasel.
What else do the voices tell you?
By the way I didn’t say the president should do nothing at all. I said that he doesn’t have the authority to undo agencies that were created by laws. So if you want those agencies undone, Congress needs to do something. Otherwise it’s all for naught.
You read that and think I don’t want any cuts in government. That just proves you’re dumb and dishonest.
Hey, you forgot to do "this article doesn't exist" in the sullum article.
He skipped that one due to his posts that he pretends don't exist now yesterday.
He is always on the wrong side of every fucking argument.
Fuck man. How dishonest can you get. Just yesterday you were inferring he was violating laws.
You're so full of shit.
What else do the voices tell you?
Answer his points, weasel.
So, no widespread SS fraud?
There aren't that many fake 130-year-olds collecting taxpayer loot....
Since the article mentioned that there is a block at 115 so that no one can get checks, there are zero 130 year olds getting checks.
And, again, there is no possibility of zero fraud. No system is fraud-proof.
Better not bother looking then. Oh well, can't be perfect.
No one has said that.
Koch can't die soon enough.
This rag is utterly useless.
The magazine staff from 30 years ago should get together and kick this groups ass.
You fvcking idiot, your own cite acknowledges that a half million dead people ARE getting monthly benefits.
And that doesn’t include dead people Under 100
You think that might add up? What is the problem with stopping this?
They’re also voting in many big Blue cities, which may be the real problem with correcting the SS database
You think that might add up? What is the problem with stopping this?
Orangemanbad.
"Elon Musk claim to have uncovered massive fraud within Social Security, but that data is already well known..."
If that data was so well known, why wasn't it fixed years ago?
It might be a relatively minor issue, but it's low hanging fruit and that's no reason not to fix it.
“ If that data was so well known, why wasn't it fixed years ago?”
Google “the juice isn’t worth the squeeze”.
The juice here is worth the squeeze, you shitty shill. What's your game here? Are you one of the staff? A Media Matters fifty-center?
Really? How much do you want to spend and how much would it save? Because if you believe it wouldn’t cost anything to reduce fraud, you’re fooling yourself.
Removing dead people from the social security data base will eventually filter down to voter rolls.
What then, democrats?
That is a very good point. But we do not have a national voter roll.
Everything about SS 'insolvency' is dishonesty. The entire purpose of the 1983 reform that created the 'trust fund' and higher FICA taxes and such was to 'prepare for the boomer problem' and kick the can down the road for the entitlement problem - then the WW2 generation.
The 'trust fund' was supposed to run out at about the time boomers DIE. Not at around the time they started to retire. At which point the notion was that the retirement pool would shrink and the perpetual Ponzi view of generations and compound interest and 'growth' would kick in again. Shit happens sometime but mostly the problem is that the discussion is completely dishonest. eg Reason's view of open borders is imo mostly about keeping the Ponzi elements of growth working without any honest discussion. That new immigrant generations would fund retirement for old 'American' generations. likewise the alt-right bigot replacement theory shit is purely a racist way of trying to keep the Ponzi elements open - but restricted to white people. All dishonest.
There is no trust fund.
There is no 'trust fund'
What a bizarre assertion by you. SS receipts go into the General Fund. Current payments are made from the General Fund. None of your social security payments are reserved for social security.
At current rates, soon SS receipts will be lower than SS payments - thus more money from the GF will have to be pulled away from other things (or greater deficit spending) to cover SS.
The 'trust fund' are not assets but they are most definitely NOT the general fund. That is a major part of the dishonesty here. Not one penny of SS has EVER been paid by general income taxes. FICA taxes go to:
1)pay current SS checks
2)buy non-marketable govt debt that is then placed in that 'trust fund'
The govt debt from that 'trust fund' can only be used to pay SS checks. Which is why when the trust fund runs out and the current FICA taxes no longer cover current SS payments, then SS payments will be adjusted downward.
As I said there's a ton of dishonesty related to everything in these discussions. So it's really not worth trying to even explain much about it. The impact of that particular set-up as a 'solution' for the baby boomer bulge problem was that it distorted interest rates for govt debt. By goosing demand, it incentivized paying for govt via debt and made tax cuts look 'free'. As the 'trust fund' runs out, those incentives will reverse/normalize. Running deficits will no longer be a free lunch. Because Americans have been reveling in financial dishonesty for 40+ years now, that 'normalizing' will look very painful.
"buy non-marketable debt"
Where do you think that comes from? The money goes into the general fund, which then owes social security. By law nothing else can be done with excess receipts.
No. There are a href="https://www.crfb.org/blogs/general-revenue-social-security-trust-funds"> three specific ways general funds have transferred money to the trust fund and one way the trust fund has transferred money to the general fund
Congress created a temporary payroll tax cut a dozen years ago. General revenues were transferred to the trust fund.
Taxation of SS benefits. The money is paid via the income tax but is credited back to the trust fund.
Interest paid on the bonds in the trust funds comes from general funds
During the 90s and early 00s when the trust fund was running a big surplus it was lending money to the general government.
There are problems with the trust fund not owning real assets. But the trust fund and general funds are different things. Merged dishonestly because Rs want to yammer on that people who only pay FICA aren't really tax payers and that income tax payers are propping up SS.
"...Everything about SS 'insolvency' is dishonesty..."
Everything JFucked posts is a lie.
"The fact that these individuals were age 100 or older, had no earnings in the past 50 years, and received no SSA payments indicates they are deceased."
Um, what? We are trying to determine if they are getting SSA payments (despite obviously being dead at age 130+), and you're using a claim they they are not getting such payments "indicates they are deceased"??
Sloppy bookkeeping is a red flag for fraud.
But is it sloppy bookkeeping or just knowing that limited funds should be better spend elsewhere?
WTF is that supposed to mean?
It means just what it says it means. The problem of dead people in the database came up in the inspector general's report. It also came out that most of these people were not being paid. So, do you take resources and get these people out of the system or just leave them as ghosts as they are not causing problems?
‘Nothing to see here, move along’.
The "resources" required to take these people out of the system, even assuming the SSA's claim that they auto-stop payments for those older than 115 is true, is as simple as adding a couple of lines of code to the process they claim they are already using to stop payment, to update the field that specifies they are dead, or remove them from the database
Any COBOL programmer could do this in a couple of hours' work (and I am being generous here, to account for the fact that these are government programmers)
It’s nonsense for nonsense sake
>The vast majority are not.
BUT SOME FUCKING ARE!
And that is a problem. So let's get these idiots off their arses and fix it.
Jesus fucking christ man! Every bit of waste you people wave off as 'not important' and therefore not worth spending time on. So what part of government waste *should* we spend time on ending? None of it according to Reason.
The point was not that the problem is not worth fixing. Rather the point was that 98% of those people are not getting a check. That doesn’t mean that it’s not worth fixing. It does mean that those who say or imply that everyone is getting a check are lying to you. Let me repeat that. They are lying to you. In case you didn’t get it the first two time I’ll say it again. They. Are. Lying. To. You.
98% ? Who said that?
It’s in the article. The IG said that.
Why spend so much time defending 2% waste with a 1.5T budget? Can you do the math?
Everything you've done for weeks is make excuses instead of applauding discovery of waste and fraud. Showing your fuck you cut waste bullshit as just bullshit.
The only thing I’m defending is the thing you hate more than anything else, and that would be the truth.
By the way, is your contract on the chopping block yet? There’s a cut I would fully and totally support, even if it went contrary to laws passed by Congress.
Remember when you gave us your sexual fantasy description of jesse?
even if it went contrary to laws passed by Congress
Wait, I thought you had principles?
Sarc has about as many principles as Jeffy.
Kept it for posterity lol.
https://reason.com/2024/09/19/heated-political-rhetoric-is-usually-not-fatal/?comments=true#comment-10730413
Lol. You're still wrong with what i do.
And yoi don't know the truth. You know cnn/msnbc/hamas narratives. You've never had the truth on your sides which is why you try to say facts change.
You're a fucking lying shit weasel lol.
Again. You blamed Trump for covid spending. All of it. And you suddenly switch your view solely because Trump and Elon have been effective. Only the who changed with your criticism.
What laws are they breaking? What constitutional principle are they breaking? You refuse to fucking answer.
Note again, you're behaving exactly like Molly and m4e. You're a fucking liberal democrat.
Spending inordinate amounts of effort on the penny ante shit is a tactic to avoid talking about the bigger issues.
I confidently predict that at the end of Trump's term in 2028 the Federal Budget will not have shrunk by one penny, but instead become keep its skyrocketing rate. Not even the penny ante shit will be fixed, because it's a deliberate distraction.
Penny wise, pound foolish.
Soni guess cut spending fuck you was a lie lol.
Those "inordinate amounts of effort" have resulted in exposure of enormous amounts of wasted money. 2% of 1.5 trillion dollars is not a small amount.
I'll be happy to wager with you that your prediction will be wrong. How about it?
Considering Congress sets the spending and y’all are lamenting every proposed way the WH is trying to go about tackling the problem, even as you admit to the spending/department/law being unconstitutional, you’re probably right that it won’t be.
Military spending?
I am struck that Elon Musk seems more interested in sound bites than in solving problems. Fixing SS, Medicare, and Medicaid will take hard work and likely more work than musk is interested in doing. He like throwing out the gotcha line and then moving on. Will he save money? Not if all he is finding out problem that have already been identified.
He's not in congress so he can't do anything anyway. Right?
Except . . . he's not 'moving on' is he?
In fact, its people like you that insist that there's no real problem and that he should move on. You're screaming it, in fact. Desperately screaming it, because he's not moving on.
They will move on in 500 days when they are set to be done.
The framing of all these articles is utterly asinine considering this is supposedly a libertarian magazine/website
Any rooting out of govt fraud, waste, corruption, excess should be celebrated.
Trump sucked the first time around on this issue … he was like all the others before him. He’s actually trying to do something now. It shouldnt be MINIMIZED. It should be applauded.
If you want to write a separate piece on the continued need for CONGRESS to act … even better.
I hope DOGE gets into SS disability next
hear, hear.
This article is a disgrace to a libertarian magazine.
The acceptable number of dead people cashing Social Security checks is '0'. So if the number is greater than that, it is a problem worth correcting.
In the long run, the acceptable number of any people receiving Social Security is also '0'.
But since Boehm is a supporter of the Democratic Party, that's just not gonna fly.
Three paragraphs to say "It's true, but it's not as bad as you say".
Trump (and Musk) understand that they CAN'T fix social security because that would imply changes to the system, which would outrage their core base. Even tinkering around the edges is likely set off a round of national pants shitting. But they are still expected to do something. So they invent this story about widespread fraud, pretend to fiddle about, and increase spending as a form of kicking the can down the street for the next non-MAGA president to deal with.
Trump is a man does does NOT pay his bills, so why the hell should he care if the country is insolvent? Musk is just his Mini-Me.
There is absolutely fraud in the system. I personally guarantee it.
It's just like what happened in California. It was repeatedly claimed for years that Illegal immigrants don't get benefits from the state because the people claiming that had never heard of a thing called a fake ID. Then California, knowing the system was rife with fraud simply changed the system and allowed illegal immigrants to get healthcare by law. Now they gleefully report that Illegal immigrants receive $9.5 billion a year in healthcare.
The point being, that if you followed up and investigated every recipient, I guaran-damn-tee you that the number of people illegally receiving benefits is way, WAY above zero. Sure, it may not be as bad as I think it is, but the idea that there's zero fraud in the system, it's running like a well-oiled machine, but we just need to make wonky policy changes is naive.
It's also well worth reminding people that Social Security is seen by most normies as a retirement benefit. It's not and that's where the fraud REALLY comes into play. There are 20 yr old's receiving SS benefits due to various conditions such as disability. In addition, the children of those recipients also receive benefits by virtue of being dependents. I know this because I have a family member who's been receiving benefits since hear early 20s, and her children received benefits until they were 18 years old. If you think that's not a major vector for fraud, you'd be very mistaken.
It’s a matter of perspective. Sure cutting a million here and a million there is great, but you need a thousand of them to get a billion, and a million millions to get a trillion. Billions are better, but you still need a thousand of them to get a trillion. So it’s better to focus on billions and ignore (for now) the millions.
22 percent of the entire federal budget. If you could cut SS outlays by even 5-10% through fraud /abuse abatement, that would be a HUGE #.
That assumes that much fraud exists. We don’t know that. It could be that high, or it could be 2%.
Better to first focus on what you know before chasing assumptions.
(Moved here)
Y’all correct me if my math is wrong.
If SS accounts for 22% of spending. That equals roughly $1.47Trillion of the $6.7Trillion budget.
1% of that is $14Billion.
But as Mark so helpfully pointed out up thread, they’ve already admitted to at least $72Billion in fraudulent payments that they’ve actually caught just last year. That’s nearly 5% of their budget going to fraud.
So I disagree, 5-10 percent is totally in the realm of of possibility.
The Nelson sock was trying to minimize it the same way above.
Most importantly, per sarc, is dont actually look because of some vague law that says the executive can't. This is the argument leftists here have been going with.
A form of Nirvana fallacy in defense of the status quo.
They've identified billions retard.
Here's just one simple example of what one might call 'minor fraud' or 'abuse'. It's VERY hard to find these stories right now because if you search for anything related to SS fraud, all you get are news hits with headlines with "Are Elon Musk claims of fraud true"?
But if you dig deep enough, they're there. Here's a story from 2018. And guess what, it's exactly in the place I suggested you'd find the most fraud (or abuse) in my comment above: Disability payments.
And for the record, the above is lightweight stuff. If you don't think people are making a herculean effort to defraud the system...
68,000,000 people collected SS in 2024.
77,000 is roughly one one-thousandth of that.
Not saying it’s ok, but in the grand scheme of things 0.1% small potatoes.
That story was just one mundane example. A top to bottom, pipe-hitting, getting medieval on their ass audit would undoubtedly reveal far more than that.
Ten times that would be a mere 1%.
Again I’m not defending fraud. Just saying there’s got to be bigger fish to fry.
DOGE will be thorough on everything. Even if we grant your assertion that it's only 0.1%, it's still a large amount of money on the line, and you shouldn't downplay this. We're not even into a month of the presidency.
(Moved)
not saying it is okay but I'd prefer the status quo instead of giving Trump or Elon any credit.
Fixed it for you.
The disability issue with SS is where the fraud really began to take hold.
It's one thing to verify who you are, when you were born and how old you are. If you can realistically verify that once, you're done. (I know in reality that's not entirely true, but for the purposes of this discussion, I'll allow it).
But when you start paying people for disability, that becomes:
Do you have an owie? How bad is the owie? Can you work with the owie? How much can you work or not work with the owie? Is the owie permanent? Do you still have the owie? Can you still not work with the owie? Has the owie gotten better? How many kids do you have? How much did you earn last year outside of the ssn beneifts? Was it less than $x? If it's more than $X we'll cut your benefits?
And so on and so on and so on. In perpetuity.
Obama actually bragged about the disability growth during his presidency.
https://www.investors.com/politics/policy-analysis/disability-surges-under-obama/
"...Trump (and Musk) understand that they CAN'T fix social security because that would imply changes to the system, which would outrage their core base..."
Brandyshit doesn't seem to understand he a TDS-addled pile of shit who should fuck off and die.
The article states that most payments are made to retirees. I'm not sure this is actually true. Once upon a time, OMB reported that about 52% of payments were made to people who had never contributed to the system...Primarily widows of men who had worked, but there were lots of people transferred from Welfare to Social Security.
This... again, a 'normie' claim is SS is just paying your retired grandma. Nope that homeless crack addict on the street corner in the tent camp is likely getting social security.
If the homeless crack addict paid into the system, then I guess he ought to get whatever benefits he earned.
I have been paying into Social Security every day since 1980, so it kinda' galls me when I see able-bodied people who have never worked a day in their life sucking the life blood out of it.
What galls me is paying into SS for more than three decades knowing it's not my money and there is no real expectation of ever getting it back. It galls me knowing that my retirement prospects would be a whole helluva lot better if I had been permitted to invest those withholdings privately.
“ Primarily widows of men who had worked”
This is definitely an easily-fixed problem. My mom made more money than my dad because she was a stock broker and he was a community college professor. When they started drawing Social Security, they BOTH got to draw on my mother’s income. And they were divorced at the time. I understand why, in a world that made a woman earning a good living a monumental struggle, this would be a way to prevent homemakers from being left destitute if their working spouse divorced them, but there’s gotta be a better way.
“but there were lots of people transferred from Welfare to Social Security.”
Exactly how would that work? Benefit levels are determined by forty quarters of your work history. I think this is probably bullshit.
Boehm (TDS-addled pile of shit):
'If you can't solve everything, don't solve anything!'
Another classic 'reason' strawman. Nobody said dead people were driving insolvency, just that people with ages of 150 or 350 prove that Social Security is really bad at updating records.
From the Social Security Administration's own website:
Zero chance of fraud here. MUSK DOESN'T UNDERSTAND TEH COBOLS!
There's an entire cottage industry of municipal offices in blue cities overrun by homeless to help homeless people get SS benefits, teaching the right words and incantations to say, directing them how to apply etc.
Fuck off corporate media.
No contributions in 50 years isn't much an edit. And how about the people under 110 was may unjustly be listed as not dead.
Simple solution: define a deceased code for "presumed dead" and use that code for everyone that can logically be presumed dead. Then there is nothing fraudulent about the death information.
Actually, the true cause of Social Security being insolvent is the EVERY defined benefit plan is inherently insolvent.
That said, even if the plan were completely solvent, that is not even a WEAK argument for not getting rid of fraud.
It amazes me I just read a full article of nothing but far-fetched EXCUSES for government fraud.
"Elon Musk claims to have uncovered massive fraud within Social Security, but those data are already well known and not a major problem."
If the data was well known about the fraud and incompetence, then why didn't the republicans and democrats do something to eliminate this mess?
Oh, that's right.
Both parties are at fault but still point fingers at each other to shift blame for their blatant stupidity.
While there is no question that payments to the living are the primary cause of pending insolvency that doesn't mean there isn't money to be saved.
Just looking at the numbers of people in the SSA database aged 70 to 99, that is 18 million more people than the U.S. census counts in those age groups. Maybe only 10% of that number are invalid payments, but that would still be $43 billion per year, well worth spending $10 to $20 million to clean up.
“ that doesn't mean there isn't money to be saved.”
Agreed. How much would have to be spent and how much would the fraud rate be reduced through that spending? That’s the cost/benefit analysis that will tell you whether it’s worth it.
“ Just looking at the numbers of people in the SSA database aged 70 to 99, that is 18 million more people than the U.S. census counts in those age groups.”
But that isn’t your base number for analysis. The base would be how many of them are drawing checks. Not all of them, obviously, since some would just be dead. You can’t assume that all 18 million are fraudulent, you can only assume that the ones who are drawing checks might be fraudulent.
You also have to account for the error rate of the Census. They have never claimed that they count every person, since that would be impossible to do. I believe I read during the last Census that the assumption is that it undercounts by 10% or so.
Finally, there certainly aren’t 18 million people drawing fraudulent checks. At $21k each, that would be $378 billion, or almost 1/4 of all Social Security payments each year. There is zero chance that there is almost $400 billion in fraud in just that one cohort.
There is a difference between knowing there’s fraud and it being worth the cost to try to reduce it. Saying that there needs to be a cost/benefit analysis isn’t the same as saying it’s OK to have fraud.
Translation - because the problem isn't as big as you claim we should just ignore it...
The scam is that the government was allowed to tap into Social Security monies to spend on things other than SS, rather than invest and let them grow separate from the rest of the government.