Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order Doesn't Just Apply to Undocumented Immigrants
Children could be denied citizenship even if their parents are here completely legally.

President Donald Trump signed a slew of executive orders on the first night of his second term, setting many of his campaign trail promises into action. Among those was his order challenging birthright citizenship—the 14th Amendment's guarantee that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."
"The Fourteenth Amendment has never been interpreted to extend citizenship universally to everyone born within the United States," noted the executive order, which applies to babies "who are born within the United States after 30 days from the date" of its issuance. It directs U.S. government departments and agencies to stop issuing and recognizing citizenship-affirming documents for certain U.S.-born babies.
Last night's order outlined two categories of individuals born in the U.S. who do not automatically receive citizenship, in the White House's view. The first is a baby whose mother was unlawfully present in the U.S. and whose father was not a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of that baby's birth. The second is a baby whose mother's presence in the U.S. "was lawful but temporary" and whose father was not a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of that baby's birth.
In other words, the order doesn't just apply to children born to undocumented immigrants. "Lawful but temporary" status includes people "on a student, work, or tourist visa," according to the White House.
Some visa holders maintain a "temporary" presence in the U.S. for decades. Skilled foreign workers on the nonimmigrant H-1B visa must apply for a green card to stay in the U.S. permanently. The number of employment-based green cards issued annually is capped, and there is also a cap on how many green cards may be issued to nationals of a single country per year—just 7 percent. "The vast majority of pending green card applications—nearly 90 percent—are from India," wrote the Cato Institute's David J. Bier in 2023. As a result, over 1 million Indian workers and family members are stuck in the green card backlog.
Many of these individuals, and others who have gone through every step to maintain legal status in the U.S. but cannot get a green card, have bought homes, become involved in their communities, and intend to build lives in the United States. They do so in spite of the uncertainty that green card backlogs introduce. Trump's executive order would add to that uncertainty.
The order's scope aside, it is highly unlikely to survive the legal challenges it is already facing. Reason's Jacob Sullum has noted this order "is bound to provoke a constitutional argument that Trump cannot win." The president's interpretation of the phrase subject to the jurisdiction "contradicts the definition that the U.S. Supreme Court embraced in 1898" in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, Sullum continued. The Supreme Court reaffirmed that case's holding and "made express what it had held implicitly," wrote Georgetown University law professor Steve Vladeck in December: "that the Citizenship Clause therefore applies to children of undocumented immigrants, specifically."
"Given just how much of a stretch the legal arguments on the citizenship front are," Vladeck continued, "we ought to consider the possibility that, in fact, the hullabaloo surrounding birthright citizenship ends up—deliberately or not—distracting from more effective, and more legally defensible (if not necessarily legal) shifts in immigration policy that come along at the same time."
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I particularly like how the Reason writers are able to pre-determine supreme court decisions.
I agree with you, given the court plays Constitutional Calvinball.
Yes, those three democrats justices are a real problem. And Roberts is way too concerned about what beltway trash think of him.
we let the Catholic in to do one fucking job and then she loses her mind
Six of the justices are Catholic.
even more terrifying.
So true! They are there to interpret the Constitution, yet deliberately, or intentionally, misinterpret it for fear of upsetting their party which is crazy since they are not supposed to be partisan. There should be no such thing as a liberal or conservative judge, just a judge interpreting the law. However, they somehow get away with the ridiculousness. One example is birthright citizenship. They seem to not know what 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof' mean. How can you be subject to the jurisdiction of a country when you're not a citizen and therefor not it's subject to it's laws. You've broken them!
That is actually a tough question, but how can you be in a country and not be subject to its laws? The simple answers are that you are protected from its laws by diplomatic arrangements or treaties, or by force greater than the force available to enforce the laws of the country.
Anything else? Well maybe. Let the fat lazy judges on the Supreme Court do something for their pay for once without having lesser courts do their work for them. (and note - judges, not justices, just like the Constitution names them. Pass it on!)
It looks like you're suggesting that if you are not a citizen then you are not subject to a host country's laws. Try going abroad -- without diplomatic immunity -- and break some laws. Then tell 'em that, since you're not a citizen, you aren't subject to their laws and, therefore, immune to prosecution. Let us know how that works out for ya.
NO, not a single member of the court misinterprets the Constitution for fear of upsetting either party. They do so because of their personal agenda, which far too often is what got them appointed.
It's like clairvoyance. Why should someone be an automatic US Citizen just because the mother happened to be here when she gave birth?
Fiona totally misunderstanding the situation, again.
The EO was kinda clear. Not much to misunderstand.
Then you have nothing to argue about. If, on the other hand, you do feel the need to argue, then quite clearly it isn't clear.
Exactly. It can't possibly stand as long as the 14th amendment says what it says. It doesn't make much sense to even make the order knowing it runs head-first into the Constitution. ...unless the goal is simply to rile up the base when the SC can't contort the plain language to say something it doesn't. Could he possibly be riling up his base for some other reason?...
Then in what circumstance would the "jurisdiction" phrase apply? Why is it there? Diplomatic immunity? If so, Trump can apply retroactive diplomatic immunity to all illegals and other undesirables immediately, and presto! He's the chief diplomat of the US. Sayonara, suckers! Hey, you heard it here first, kids. You're welcome!
Diplomatic immunity is granted only to certain diplomats. It waives the legal jeopardy a diplomat can face. Obviously is doesn't apply to every non-citizen. Don't you know this? Otherwise all aliens- both legal and illegal are immune. Has that been an ongoing concern for the DOJ? Of course not. Because it is nonsense.
I don't dispute that the part of the 14th amendment that grants citizenship to anyone born in the U.S. is a terrible policy. But until the Constitution is amended, that is the law. You can't just pick and chose what parts of the Constitution apply. It isn't the Bible. It's the law.
Why do lefty bots make up handles suggesting they are capable of independent thought? Are they stupid enough to believe that we'll buy that horseshit? Or just stupid in general?
I am neither a lefty nor a bot. I think the law should be changed. It is a terrible idea to allow birth tourism. But contorting plain language in order to pretend the law says something is very obviously does not can't be the way it gets changed if the U.S. is a nation of laws. It just can't. Hopping up to defend what you know is factually wrong does not comport with the use of reason.
No she’s not, she’s some sort of bizzarre fetishist. She s pro-Birthright tourism and anchor babies
Everyone is welcome in Fiona's private spaces.
FH;dr
I think, at least in this case, it's less about Fiona than Reason's sitewide erection for illegal immigration. Which is a great position to take when you poll at 1% and really want to get down to 0.
True, but Fiona is the most deranged about it. To the point where it’s likely that she’s mentally unstable.
Have you heard of birth tourism Fiona?
Businesses and even China encourage women to fly to the US just to give birth on travel visas.
My answer to Fiona....Oh well.
And? Whether you like it or not, the Constitution trumps your rage at the few people who game the system.
In case you were curious, the Constitution is important, your anger isn’t.
Few people? What about the millions of others who take advantage of the same simplistic understanding of the Constitution in multiple other ways?
Your understanding may be right, but it needs to be determined by the Supreme Court, one way or the other.
It has. In the 1800s.
Cite?
United States v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898.
Millions, you say?
The EO cites the constitution dumdum. Under jurisdiction is wording that matters dumdum.
Yeah, that dog doesn’t hunt. The Constitution and a Supreme Court precedent say it is an unconstitutional order, dumdum. That beats your rage every day and twice on Sunday.
Supreme Court precedent? You mean like Roe v. Wade? Butt still hurting from that one, eh?
He’s delusional that he’s not steadily losing. And losing badly.
So because Roe was overturned, no other Supreme Court precedents matter? That’s a bizarre belief.
Maybe so. But that doesn’t give Joe Biden the right to violate the Constitution, now does it? Or Trump?
Exactly. It is part of the Constitution that needs to be changed. Until it is, though, birth tourism will remain a reality.
The discussion of the amendment has never been fully adjudicated. You're accepting an argument that has never been processed. Roe, dred Scott, others have all been changed through argument.
Stop accepting bullshit.
There was literally a Supreme Court case that addressed the child of two non-citizens born in the US. They ruled the child was a US citizen. So yes, it has been adjudicated. And processed. And clearly ruled in.
But don’t give up hope. One day the Constitution might mean what you want it to mean, not what it actually says.
Nope.
United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)
I imagine the case you cite is the Wong Ark case of 1898. Ark was declared a citizen, but the court said the ruling only applied to 'children born of lawful permanent residents.' No birth tourists, nor illegal immigrants.
And yet there is nothing in the Amendment that says anything about either the legality or permanency. It was the situation in this particular case, but it wasn’t presented as a requirement in the Supreme Court decision.
Since when has any person (those granted diplomatic immunity accepted) in any of the 50 States or territories *not* been under the jurisdiction of the State or the U.S. Do you expect the SC to redefine the word "jurisdiction" (which is used throughout the Constitution) just because Trump wants it changed in this one instance? If Jurisdiction does not refer to the concept it has stood for since the Constitution was written, imagine how many other laws will be upended by redefining the word. This is just stupid.
What this is aimed at stopping is 'Anchor babies' and 'Birthright Tourism'.
I don't know to what extent either of those things actually occur, but I think it's fine to require (as many other developed countries do) that in order to be given US citizenship at birth, one must:
A) be both born in the country, and have at least one parent who is a legal permanent resident
-or-
B) be born outside the country, and have at least one parent who is a US Citizen
Would I prefer that this is codified in a bill passed by Congress and signed by the President and then upheld by the Supreme Court as being consistent with the 14th Amendment? Absolutely. Maybe this is a step in that direction.
upheld by the Supreme Court as being consistent with the 14th Amendment
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States
Good luck with that.
What I've never seen discussed in any rational manner is exactly what that phrase meant in 1867 or whenever the 14th was adopted. Far as I know, the first actual immigration law was the anti-Chinese act in the 1880s, twenty years later, and the first comprehensive set of laws was in the 1920s after WW I. The SCOTUS case so much in presence was from the 1880s.
What did "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" mean in 1867? I doubt it was very similar to the 1880s or 1920s. Did "illegal immigrant" even exist as a legal phrase in 1867?
Did "illegal immigrant" even exist as a legal phrase in 1867?
I'm sure you know more about that than I do. I'd guess few were aware or cared of such a thing though.
Here's my take: Had the 14A crafters intended to exclude the children of illegal aliens, they would have used more careful language. Failing to consider illegal aliens because they didn't yet exist, at least in legislators' conscience, doesn't open a loophole.
I have no huge issue with ending birthright citizenship. What I do have an issue with is laws that don't mean what they say or especially when they are clearly being warped (like the commerce clause.) If Trump wants to end birthright citizenship he needs to amend the constitution to change the language of 14A.
Amen to the amendment, but no, I do not know what "illegal immigrant" meant in 1867.
It didn't mean anything in 1867. In 1867, "illegal immigrant" was an impossibility. The US wouldn't enact it's first restrictions on immigration until 1875.
The language, actually is very plain.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States,
All persons born or naturalized in the United States,
and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,
who are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States
are citizens of the United States
are citizens
It's very simple.
If you are NOT subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, i.e,, if you are subject or citizen of a different jurisdiction, say another country, you are not a citizen.
Europeans vacationing in Florida who have their kid a bit early in Orlando, who are citizens of the EU ARE NOT 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States'. They're tourists, and their kid is an EU citizen.
Not an American.
Simple.
Europeans vacationing in Florida who have their kid a bit early in Orlando, who are citizens of the EU ARE NOT 'subject to the jurisdiction of the United States'.
They are subject to the jurisdiction of the US while they are in the US.
No, they are not.
They are required to obey the laws of the US as specified in their visa.
And that would be subject to the jurisdiction of the country they are in, same as Americans overseas on vacation are subject to those jurisdictions.
If you want to make it mean something else, you're going to have to be lot clearer. Simply asserting "subject to the jurisdiction" means something non-obvious is not convincing. If you don't want to be convincing, then feel free to say nothing.
lol the entire yin-yang tilts on the one phrase on purpose. azathoth is entirely more convincing of his tilt than anyone on the other side of it
So it obviously doesn’t apply to illegals, who are already violating the law by their mere presence.
So if a European tourist to the US murder's someone in New York, they can't be arrested and tried? That's what it means to not be subject to the Jurisdiction of the United States.
There are various jurisdictions. Fbi and police often argue about legal jurisdiction. Jurisdiction of the US is full jurisdiction, not partial, not just legal.
US citizens are subject to said jurisdiction even when they travel abroad. Legal and financial. They get taxed.
Illegal immigrants are not.
Do some of you even bother thinking past the facial layer of a discussion?
Do some of you even bother thinking past the facial layer of a discussion?
Do you?
The amendment says nothing about where you pay taxes. A vacationer or migrant is subject to US jurisdiction including tax laws which say if you live here, or work here you pay taxes. If neither of those apply you owe no taxes under US jurisdiction.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/taxation-of-nonresident-aliens
If a noncitizen buys a car here, do they owe taxes?
Absolutely correct! Only while they are on vacation here.
The supreme court ruled on United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), that if you are required to follow US laws, then you are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
This is why a child born from somebody with diplomatic immunity would not be a citizen, since they do not have to follow US laws.
Somebody wanted the Supreme Court to overrule it in 1942, but they refused to hear the case.
Then who isn't?
“who are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States”
Everyone in America, whether citizen or not, is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Or do you think that illegal immigrants and tourists should be able to murder whoever they want and not be subject to our laws?
Nope. Illegals definitely don’t count. No matter how much you want them to.
That's a fanciful re-reading of what is actually plain language. If illegal aliens are subject to penalties for breaking U.S. laws they are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. It doesn't say, "If they are *always* subject to the jurisdiction" When you are in a State you are subject to it's laws as well as Federal laws. If people traveling from abroad are not subject to the jurisdiction of the laws they cannot be expected to follow any law that is not enforced in the places they are from. Would that be a better reading of it? You can't ignore the Constitution you don't like it. The law needs to be changed. As long as the rule of law means anything at all, laws must be followed.
Oh the fucking irony. In the very same case they said the parents were still under the jurisdiction of China, not the US. Lol.
You can be subject to the laws of multiple governments. Being held to Chinese legal standards does not mean Chinese people visiting the U.S. are only obligated to follow Chinese laws. You're basically arguing that British citizens can drive on the left-hand side of the road when they are in the U.S. because that is the law in their own country. It's just fucking absurd. I keep getting let down by people who are literally visiting a website called "Reason". If you are unable to use reason, there isn't much of a reason for you to be here at Reason.
Subject to the jurisdiction is more than just following the criminal laws of a country. Can the person run for federal office? Can the person be seated on a jury? Can the person vote in federal elections? If the home country extradites him, does the USA send him back? after serving a sentence for crimes, can the USA deport him?
Subject to the jurisdiction means having the rights and responsibilities of a citizen. It means owing allegiance.
No. It doesn't. It never has. Three days ago you would never have even considered it otherwise. Does this change the meaning of every law and statute the uses the word 'jurisdiction"? You sure you want to argue that?
> What I've never seen discussed in any rational manner is exactly what that phrase meant in 1867 or whenever the 14th was adopted.
To help answer your question, the Congressional Globe 5/30/1885 records Michigan Senator Jacob Howard, who authored the clause. See below. (The publication used to be available at the Library of Congress website, but appears to be deleted. I'm sure that's a mistake. https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=073/llcg073.db&recNum=11 )
"This amendment which I have offered, is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States."
"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons."
That's interesting, and I thank you. But it's inconsistent. First he just repeats the 14th but with more words:
Then he makes exceptions which are not in the 14th:
I am always leery of "of course", as it usually presages an explanation of what the speaker thinks should be obvious, but obviously is not if it needs explanation.
In this case, there is nothing in the 14th to provide exceptions or even definitions of foreigners and aliens. Are those two terms different? Why include both if they are the same, and if they are different, why doesn't he explain that too?
No. Thanks for the quote, but it doesn't answer the question.
But by logic , if it were mere birth you would have said no more.
It answers the question but you didn't understand the question.
If it answers it, then it should be easy to explain without just repeating the words which are not clear.
Legislative intent, as conveyed by the legislator, is germane to interpretation of laws.
Jacob Howard clarified his intent. That (should) be enough for SCOTUS to decide the issue.
The musings of one person is not necessarily the intent of everyone who voted to send the amendment to the states or to ratify it in the various states. That’s why “commonly understood at the time” is a better way to interpret intent.
No, he did NOT clarify his intent, attested to by all the questions which proponents do not clarify. If his words were clear, there wouldn't be so many questions. If the answers were clear, there wouldn't be so many requests for actual clarification.
Stop repeating "jurisdiction" as if it's obvious. As shown in these comments, it is not clear.
Wishcasting isn’t a valid argument. There’s a lot of “What jurisdiction REALLY means is …” without any willingness to discuss what would result from such a definition.
That's also not very clear.
This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, [and?]who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons."
Does the bold text define the foreigners/aliens. Had he included the word "and" or "or" it would be easier to interpret.
He also said "I am not yet prepared to pass a sweeping act of naturalization by which all the Indian savages, wild or tame, belonging to a tribal relation, are to become my fellow-citizens and go to the polls and vote with me.
So he was clearly looking to exclude Indians. My sense of language tells me he meant "or" but he clearly did not distinguish between legal and illegal aliens or foreigners. So when the courts interpreted this in case law to include legal immigrants, it seems they also included illegal immigrants. Uhhh, maybe.
You are completely underthinking this.
"This amendment which I have offered, is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States."
He is recognizing the contradiction that was inherent in the US Constitution and why the 14th amendment was necessary. Slaves lived in the US and were subject to the jurisdiction of the US but they were not citizens. Having been freed by the 13th amendment, what guarantee did a slave have for citizenship within the US let alone in the state where they were born? There was talk of deporting them back to Africa.
https://www.history.com/news/abraham-lincoln-black-resettlement-haiti
Some of the families had been here for 5 generations. They knew nothing of Africa. So he drafts the 14th in the interest of justice to reestablish the constitutional decree of the right to citizenship in the country of your birth.
He then speaks to who is not included -
"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers
This is his recognition that children of foreigners, aliens and ambassadors are citizens of their parent's country by right of birth. These children are already citizens of another country and it is outside the scope of the Constitution to have US citizenship imposed upon them.
OK. You convinced me that he did intend to exclude aliens with that historical context.
He did a very poor job making his point clear in the text of the amendment, however.
Thank you for the acknowledgement! People engaging in honest dialogue in an attempt to persuade each other is what should prevail in a libertarian forum.
I agree.
Yes.
I think Chuck did a great job of articulating what my position has been on this issue (though as Fist mentioned below, it’s really all meh to me as I could take or leave it).
To your point on and/or, I usually get the sense that linguistically, it could go either way (though I lean towards or when and isn’t specifically in the sentence). As always, clarity in the prose of law would alleviate a lot of these arguments.
Can the parent of the infant vote?
Can the parent of the infant run for federal office?
If the parent commits a crime, can he/she be deported after serving their sentence?
If the country the parent is from askes for their national back, do we send them back?
If the answers are No, No, Yes, Yes, then the parent is not a citizen and therefore the infant cannot be a citizen.
Except the law doesn't say that a parent must be a citizen. It clearly says that if you are born here, you are a citizen. It's a bad law, granted, but the response should be to change the law, not to bend over contorting both yourself and the English language to make the Constitution say whatever you want. This is the U.S. Constitution we're talking about, not the fucking Bible.
That's not what the law nor the amendment say. There are more words dumdum.
See later laws dealing with native Americans.
"There are more words dumdum"
Jesus Christ. The stupidity around here can be shocking.
“ What did "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" mean in 1867? I doubt it was very similar to the 1880s or 1920s.”
Sure. I’ve noticed the massive shift in the English language today from when George W Bush was in his second term. I mean, 20 years later it’s almost a completely different language!
Even for you, Brett, this is an imbecilic argument.
Who were you replying to? Even for you, Molke, that is an imbecilic response.
I included a quote from the post, as I usually do. Use your reading skills. Or, even easier, read the end of my post where it says “Brett”.
IKR? Like, "raw dogging" used to mean unprotected sex. Now, its some sort of barefoot flying or something or other.
If SCOTUS can creatively interpret the 14A as legalizing gay marriage (which I guarantee was NOT the intent of any of the framers at the time), they can creatively interpret the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
After we "sex" was redefined to mean "choice of gender" without rewriting a word of law (by Obama, Biden, and SCOTUS), you're positive we cannot come to a new accepted meaning of what 'subject to the jurisdiction' really means?
To John and MO,
By all means we can interpret "subject to the jurisdiction of" to exclude illegal aliens. I'm merely arguing what I think it means, not what lawyers, judges and activists can stretch it to.
"Would I prefer that this is codified in a bill passed by Congress and signed by the President and then upheld by the Supreme Court as being consistent with the 14th Amendment? Absolutely. Maybe this is a step in that direction."
Yeah, the odds of the Supreme Court upholding that as consistent with the 14th Amendment's citizenship clause is approximately nil.
You've been wrong on almost every major case for a decade lol. Roe was the last one. Keep your strikeout streak going!
jus soli predates the 14A. It's in the body of the constitution.
No one is changing that w/o a constitutional amendment.
It's like that time those Americans were in vacationing Germany and the Mom went into labor!
Yeah that was fucked up. Now the whole family is German but they still have to pay the IRS every April 15th. In deutsche marks .
Reichmarks, dude, please keep up. Don't you even Musk?
My bad.
Fun story.
My father and maternal grandfather were AFCENT (Allied Forces, Central Europe) stationed in Maastricht Germany when he and my mother met and married. Then, I was born in Heerlen, Netherlands, in a civilian hospital, not on base. Consequently, I was issued a Dutch birth certificate in seven languages and maintained dual citizenship until I enlisted in the US Navy at 18.
Because I was issued a birth certificate from a foreign civilian hospital instead of a DoD hospital, my parents had to get me naturalized at age 5 to attend kindergarten on base in Fort Hood, Texas. It is the most ridiculous piece of paperwork I have in my vital statistics folder.
This is the exact situation of wife, born in Wiesbaden, Germany. Fun fact that her Certificate of Naturalization is signed by Henry Kissinger.
She has to provide that document (along with her marriage certificate) for proof of citizenship to obtain a passport or state ID despite both her parents being US servicemembers.
Saying that "all persons born ... in the United States ... are citizens of the United States" doesn't mean that all people born here are citizens is about as honest as saying "shall not be infringed" means infringing is honky-dory.
Does it say anything else about being 'subject to the jurisdiction of' such place or anything like that?
How is an immigrant, legal or illegal not subject to the jurisdiction of the US?
"Fruit of the poison tree" is a recognized legal doctrine. Why should the US accrue any standing to a trespasser?
Because the amendment was written without considering the possibility of said trespassers.
I agree. And I would argue that trespassers should not accrue standing under an amendment that was not written to address their very different circumstances.
Noted. We're in legal reasoning well above my level. From a common sense perspective, you have a point though.
The problem with your argument is that at the time that amendment was drafted and ratified, the "trespassers" you refer to could not exist.
I reject the notion of calling people without papers "trespassers."
If they've got a job then their employer doesn't think they're a trespasser. Their landlord doesn't think they're a trespasser. The stores the buy stuff from don't think they're a trespasser. The only people who do are people who have never met them, don't interact with them, outwardly claim to oppose collectivism, and say they're trespassing against the collective.
If they've got a job then their employer doesn't think they're a trespasser.
That is a lie. Either the employer has been deceived or the employer is enabling the trespass. It is illegal to employ any undocumented person, so in both situations there is fraud involved.
Their landlord doesn't think they're a trespasser. The stores the buy stuff from don't think they're a trespasser. The only people who do are people who have never met them, don't interact with them, outwardly claim to oppose collectivism, and say they're trespassing against the collective.
Fallacious nonsense. Begging the question. Even without evidence I can logically argue that they both compete for and provide scarce resources, so they must affect prices. And there are diverse people who acknowledge the trespass, even ones that support collectivism. Cesar Chavez is notorious for hating on immigrants and his brother is known to have engaged in violence against them.
Trump is great because he's like Chavez. Got it.
Dismissal. My feelings are not hurt.
Come back tomorrow and I will thump you again. You know crave the attention, you little bitch.
Only thing you thumped was your ass.
Only thing you thumped was your ass.
Does that means something different in Maine? The imagery fails me. I can picture thumping you on the head, like a Stooge, but how does one thump their own ass? Like a roundhouse thump? That wouldn't even hurt. Should I feel insulted? I really just feel confused.
No Sarc. He roundly crushed you. You always lose arguments. Always.
It’s probably because you’re a drunk bitch who was never intelligent to begin with.
A disingenuous argument. For one, employers might not know the employee is a
trespasserillegal immigrant, or doesn't care. It doesn't legitimize their (alleged) trespass in the least.That's like saying employing a person that is illegally squatting in someone's house isn't, in fact, illegal squatting because, ya know, the employer doesn't think their living situation is illegal.
If an employer hires a known drug dealer, I guess the employer doesn't think his drug dealing is illegal/criminal, so I guess the DA can't have the dealer arrested and tried.
Yeah. Someone employees a criminal, that somehow means the employer doesn't think their a criminal, so I guess they're... what?... not a criminal?
This taxpayer says they're trespassers.
They don't vote, hold office, serve on juries, or register for the draft.
Can they be sentenced to jail if a court determines they broke a Federal or State law? If they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the country and/ or State we have been illegally locking up a whole lot of people. Foreigners *not* subject to the jurisdictions of the particular State they are in and *not* subject to Federal laws are those with diplomatic immunity. We already know that those people, because they are not subject to the laws of those jurisdictions, can wrack up speeding and parking tickets, drive drunk, shoplift, and even commit murder with impunity. At worst they are sent back to their home countries. Do we really want to force all the illegals currently in the country to abide by those same rules?
Why not just change the fucking law? That's how it works if the Constitution counts for anything at all. I don't like everything it says, but I would rather abide by the Constitution than allow Presidents to just make up their own rules, even if a rule might be a good idea. There is a process. We want immigrants to follow theirs. The U.S. government should certainly follow the country's laws.
Another know nothing not understanding legal jurisdiction doesn't mean full US jurisdiction.
The ignorance of democrats is both horrifying and amusing.
Illegal immigrant males of military age are required to register for the draft because they are subject to the jurisdiction thereof...
A foreign alien cannot run for office.
A foreign alien cannot vote in federal elections.
If a country wants their national citizen extradited back home, we send them home.
If a foreign alien commits a crime here, after serving their sentence, they are under a deportation order to go home.
These are examples of not being under the jurisdiction thereof.
Uh, the “serving their sentence” part says they are.
You really don’t understand any of this. You just want open borders.
That’s not what that language means. It refers to being a citizen or subject of a foreign power. Not whether they have to obey US law.
Says you?
jurisdiction
/joo͝r″ĭs-dĭk′shən/
noun
1) The right of a court to hear a particular case, based on the scope of its authority over the type of case and the parties to the case.
2) Authority or control.
"islands under US jurisdiction; a bureau with jurisdiction over Native American affairs."
3) The extent of authority or control.
"a family matter beyond the school's jurisdiction."
What’s strangely absent? Your definition. Gee, I wonder why?
Another idiot who misunderstands legal jurisdiction is not full jurisdiction. If you go to Europe you must follow their laws, under their legal jurisdiction. You do not qualify for their various citizen based programs, state jurisdiction.
God damn some of you have no ability to think or understand your arguments.
And yet, a Supreme Court decision from the 1800s says that you’re wrong. If only the Supreme Court Justices understood the law as well as you.
Nope.
Or, if you prefer, this:
Definition of Jurisdiction
Noun
1) The power and authority to administer justice by hearing and deciding legal cases
2) The territory over which such authority is exercised
3) The geographical area of a court’s legal authority, or of a law enforcement agent’s authority
Origin
1250-1300 Middle English <Latin jūris dictiōn
https://legaldictionary.net/jurisdiction/
You are just redefining simple language. it's not just wrong, it's dumb. But I guess that is where we have gotten.
Choosing to redefine a word only affects what you want the word to mean. It doesn't actually change the legal definition of the word. Doesn't matter how hard you believe it.
Anyone within the borders of the country are subject to its jurisdiction. You're as honest as those who say "militia" means "National Guard" and then claim the 2A only protects the right of the government to keep and bear arms.
You want to talk about honesty when you were caught deliberately excluding from a quote the exact phrase that people are questioning, and then acting like there shouldn't even be a question.
Would your abbreviated version of the Bible go: "In the beginning . . . Jesus wept."
Hey, it's an accurate quote, right?
The only people I can think of who are not "subject to jurisdiction" are diplomats, and their kids don't get birthright citizenship.
Not what that means. See above.
You actually pretending to make a good faith statement? Cute.
Jurisdiction is something that courts have power over. To say someone is not "subject to jurisdiction" means the courts have no power over them. Means the law does not apply to them. It does not mean that they are "subjects" or citizens of another government. Those people can still be arrested, tried, and imprisoned. So they are subject to jurisdiction. Diplomats and other mentioned in windy's post below are not.
You're just making shit up to defend Trump.
You’re a Trump hating drunk who refuses to acknowledge that ‘jurisdiction’ does not mean what you say it does relative to the context in which it is used in the constitution.
You’re just making shit up to attack Trump.
Oh, and let me know when you’re ready to nut up and follow through on your threats to me two years ago. I haven’t forgotten.
No, illogical in the extreme as you are saying "all quotes are accurate" but then, denying your OWN PREMSIE !!! you ask if it is right>
You are not paying attention to what you say, but that is understandable. It's illogical.
No doubt , just as whoever comes into your house must take off there shoes.But I doubt the burglar takes off his shoes.
That is the distinction --- and to say "the burglar was in my house so he had to take off his shoes" is muy loco.
Anyone within the borders of any country is subject to its laws, that doesn’t make them citizens of that country.
This argument seems specious at best.
Sorry, not specious, tautological.
Blind skwerl finds a nut, kudos
Please explain how that meant anything more than diplomats and invading armies in 1867.
It didn't and the grown-up anchor-baby citizen is eligible to serve as president upon reaching age 35 and has been since well before ratification of 14A.
The presence of the conjunction "and" indicates that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," is not a subordinate clause. Unlike "“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," which by its placement (and all contemporaneous writings) is an explanatory introduction to "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Leaving out "A well regulated militia" does not change the meaning of the 2A. Leaving out "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," significantly changes the meaning of the 14A.
So there are two main classes of people that language applies to a) children of foreign ambassadors b) children of the sovereign Indian tribes. Those classes of people would be recognized in 1800s as 'not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."
There is a third class recognized at common law: children of invading enemy forces while in active hostilities against the U.S. The U.S. is a common law country so it could be presumed the framers of the amendment were at least nominally aware of this exception.
The US is a jus soli common law country so prior to the 14th amendment's enactment; being born here (and not subject to one of the above exceptions) was enough to make that person a citizen. The 14th amendment made that explicit and I agree with the commenters who say if you want to change the law, you have to change the amendment or repeal it. A law of Congress is not enough and a mere executive order surely is not enough to change the constitution. (This is of course assuming a Sup Ct that claims to be majority originalist and textualist actually follows their own judicial philosophy on a topic with heavy political undertones).
So, if during the debate over the 14th amendment, an author stated:
How would you interpret the statement in bold?
The express purpose of the amendment was to provide Constitutional protection as to the national and state citizenship of persons who, until the passage of the 13th amendment, were not considered citizens. It was specifically brought up in the debate that it did not grant citizenship to the children of foreign nationals.
I would respond that if the framers of the 14th amend wanted to limit its application to only children of slaves...they knew how to phrase it to limit it as such. They chose instead to use rather expansive language 'all persons...'
The preceding 'law' on the subject [referred to in latin as jus soli] was the law of England prior to the establishment of the united states and carried over to the US since the US adopted the English common law. If someone has some evidence somewhere that the US didn't practice jus soli now would be a good time to present it. Because there were hundreds of thousands of children born to citizens of foreign countries [ireland, germany italy, whatever] that were deemed us citizens merely upon their birth on our soil and nobody seemed to have a problem with that.
Hey not a lawyer... the parents in that case were in the US, why did the court rule they were still under the jurisdiction of china?
This is why the courts then added permanent residents after that part of the ruling.
This right here
THe 2A has a nominative absolute and , yes, this other case is not that. More to the point A "AND B is commutative and no different from B "AND" A.
wrote Georgetown University law professor Steve Vladeck in December: "that the Citizenship Clause therefore applies to children of undocumented immigrants, specifically."
Except for the part where Wong Kim Ark's parents were not undocumented.
You have to leave out some pretty significant language to jump to the conclusion that includes undocumented immigrants. I would even go so far as to argue that the language being ignored (permanent domicile, carrying on business), speak to necessary conditions in order for the child to be recognized, else why were they included?
Probably the most incorrectly quoted case by open border acolytes.
Lies and distortions ar wall they have.
Ilya Somin likes to say the same. I'd still like to see some 1867 interpretation of the jurisdiction clause, but just as climate alarmunists have discredited their cause with all their lies and fraud, so do the birthright fanatics.
I personally like birthright citizenship. It's too bad they don't honor it by holding those children to their parents' implicit loyalty oath and tell China to extradite them for treason trials.
The birthright fanatics may rue challenging this executive order the same way as those who challenged Missouri's abortion law that led to the Dobbs decision. So sure they were that Roe would never be overturned that they challenged Missouri's 15 week limit because they wanted no limits on abortion and ended up getting Roe overturned. The birthright fanatics ( open border fanatics really) may end up ending birthright citizenship for all immigrants and not just illegal aliens by refusing to accept that there should be limits.
Out of Barrett, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Roberts, which 3 are dishonest enough to ignore the text to achieve a preferred outcome? We all know Alito and Thomas have no ethics or principles, so their originalism will will once again get contorted to affirm their preferences.
You seem perfectly willing to ignore the context of the 14th amendments passage on the heels the 13th and what it was intended to protect (the rights of former slaves not to be deported). Perhaps they do have ethics and principles and it is you who is lacking.
No, I prefer to have my Constitution straight up, without speculative bullshit used as a transparent attempt to reach a preferred outcome that is the exact opposite of the Amendment.
The argument put forth in Congress during the passage of the 14th amendment that specifically noted that it would not grant citizenship to the children of foreign nationals is not speculative bullshit. The amendment was intended to settle the citizenship rights of the freed slaves within the US and within the state of their birth.
Context is relevant to jurisprudence.
Wong Kim Ark recognized the citizenship of an adult who was born to permanent (legal) residents. It is of a completely different nature to the child of an illegal alien.
This must have been a bad week for you. Did you cry? Even just a little, pretend-libertarian?
No, all of that is bullshit. You’re just a Marxist faggot who lies as consistently as breathing.
“ but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business”
So, say, someone who works and pays rent for an apartment that is their only residence in the world? That seems to apply to the vast majority of illegal immigrants in America. You know, like the ones that the farmers who supported Trump were shocked to discover were who Trump meant when he talked about mass deportations?
So, say, someone who works and pays rent for an apartment that is their only residence in the world?
I would point out that having entered without presenting themselves at the border, obtaining work is an illegal act. Having knowledge of what most often happens when an illegal gets served legal notice, the claim of permanent residence is a farce.
And yet that doesn’t change the fact that they fulfill the requirement that the decision set. They made no distinction between legal or illegal entry.
Why do you think that the legality of their entry matters?
Uhm. At the time of that ruling, if I recall correctly, there were no laws broadly restricting entry into the US. Thus, illegal immigration did not exist yet. Therefore, the judges could not possibly make any distinction between legal and non-existent illegal entry.
Therefore, their lack of distinction between the two (legal vs. illegal entry) is inadmissible as evidence of intent with regards to illegal entry and birthright citizenship.
Perhaps. But they made no other exceptions for circumstances that existed at the time, either. A complete lack of any exceptions sure seems like the way it was intended when it was ratified.
Looks like it's well past time to establish a modern interpretation of birthright citizenship in the 14th Amendment. One which includes illegal immigration but which preserves the intent of the original. I can't wait to see the outcome!
Do you ever get tired of lieing?
What was written that was not true?
Generally, everything you say here.
The correct spelling is "lying", not "lieing"
This is another example of Republicans saying they will go after undocumented people but also target ones here legally. There are many foreign students here on long term visas, and the EO says their children are not citizens.
Which make sense. That's the same standard across the EU.
Your children are not born citizens unless you are a legal permanent resident. Not an illegal immigrant, tourist, or student. The exception is if this law would make the child stateless.
The issue is not that we are debating what the law should be, but rather that the 14A says otherwise and Trump is violating it. The 14A was put in place for this exact reason, to prevent politicians from excluding citizenship from disfavored classes of people who are bone in the US
He’s not. As usual, you are lying to advance your democrat open border scheme.
Lying, no. Want open borders, yes.
"That's the same standard across the EU.”
And we became a member of the EU when, exactly? One of the things that makes us a great country is that we do things differently (frequently better) than other countries. European countries, specifically, since we fought a revolution against one so we could do things our own way.
We're not in the EU, globalist.
They’re not ‘undocumented’. They are illegals. Because they entered the country illegally. They aren’t just missing some paperwork.
You’re so goddamned dishonest.
Imagine the outrage from the Trump defenders if Biden had tried to rewrite the Constitution with an executive order.
The tears are even sweeter for Trump 2 Electric Bugaloo.
The best part is their hysteria just drives more people away from their party.
But he did several times.
You approve those pardons?Why?
Mostpeople say they are an outrage against the Consitution. Pardons were not meant to shield the family members whose crimes the President is complicit in. And if you start on your old Presidential Immunity many will never think you fair or smart
Asset forfiture. Seize their bank accounts. Joe didn't pardon any bank accounts.
I never said I approved of his pardons you lying sack of shit. And that has nothing at all to do with rewriting the Constitution with an executive order, which you are defending with your lies and attacks.
Biden also recently tried to change the Constitution by executive order, as I recall.
In this case, Trump is squeezing the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction" knowing full well that he's riding along to a SCOTUS decision. And maybe he'll get a result like progressives got in Bostock...where words that used to mean one thing mean something completely different now ("sex" vs "sexual orientation").
You lost, bitch. Seethe harder.
CNN:
President Joe Biden announced a major opinion Friday that the Equal Rights Amendment is ratified, enshrining its protections into the Constitution, a last-minute move that some believe could pave the way to bolstering reproductive rights.
It will, however, certainly draw swift legal challenges – and its next steps remain extremely unclear as Biden prepares to leave office.
The amendment, which was passed by Congress in 1972, enshrines equal rights for women. An amendment to the Constitution requires three-quarters of states, or 38, to ratify it. Virginia in 2020 became the 38th state to ratify the bill after it sat stagnant for decades. Biden is now issuing his opinion that the amendment is ratified. It would next fall upon the archivist of the United States, Dr. Colleen Shogan, to certify and publish the amendment.
“It is long past time to recognize the will of the American people. In keeping with my oath and duty to Constitution and country, I affirm what I believe and what three-fourths of the states have ratified: The 28th Amendment is the law of the land, guaranteeing all Americans equal rights and protections under the law regardless of their sex,” Biden said in a statement Friday.
Biden, a senior Biden administration official said, is not taking executive action, but is “stating an opinion that it is ratified.”
“He is using his power of the presidency to make it clear that he believes – and he agrees with leading constitutional scholars and the American Bar Association – not that it should be, but it is the 28th Amendment of the Constitution,” the official added.
But legal experts contend it isn’t that simple: Ratification deadlines lapsed and five states have rescinded their approval, according to the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University’s law school, prompting questions about the president’s authority to ratify the amendment more than 50 years after it first passed.
------------------------------
Thanks CNN...now let's add to that the fact that Congress set a 7-year deadline in the law they first passed, extended that deadline by 3 more years to June 30, 1982, and not enough states ratified it within the timeline.
January 8, 2020 – The Office of Legal Counsel determines that the ERA has expired and is not eligible for ratification.
February 10, 2020 – Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg encourages supporters of the ERA to start with a new ratification process instead of continuing to support the previous version
February 28, 2023 – A case to compel the certification of the ERA is dismissed by a federal appeals court.[2]
2022 – Incoming national archivist Colleen Joy Shogan says during her confirmation that she will not affirm the ERA, instead leaving this to the decision of Congress or the courts.[3]
2023 – Senator Kirsten Gillibrand and Representative Cori Bush introduce a joint resolution affirming the ratification of the ERA.[3]
2023 – A resolution is introduced to remove the deadline for ratification, but it does not pass.[3]
December 17, 2024 – The national archivist and deputy national archivist issue a joint statement that the ERA cannot be certified.[2]
Joe Biden ignores ALL of that to say "I can change the Constitution by fiat."
January 17, 2025 – President Joe Biden makes a statement that the ERA has met the requirements for ratification.
That wasn't an executive order. It was a demented speech.
Really no difference with Biden. The guy you supported and defend here daily.
"Imagine the outrage from the Trump defenders if Biden had tried to rewrite the Constitution with an executive order."
He did, but it was probably the least offensive thing he attempted to do that day because it was rejected by the Archivist.
Okay, you are just stirring shit up.
Trump does not have it in for babies.
You complain even about the things only made possible by Biden the Incompetent.If you start on Executirve Orders, that is it for me. 🙂
Even if here legally but not if temporarily is OK.
I want to see more crying.
Wong Kim Ark is not exactly exemplary of clear concise legal reasoning, with a ___load of conflicting dicta, but the fact is that Wong Kim Ark was born to parents living legally as permanent residents of the US, not illegals; and there is language to support the construction that "subject to the jurisdiction" only applies to those legally permitted to reside in this country. So, notwithstanding the usual hysterics from the left, the case does not definitively prohibit President Trump's EO. In fact, maybe its well past time for the S.Ct. to clarify the matter.
No there isn't. They repeatedly state that Kim Ark's parents are 'subjects of the Emperor of China." What do you think that means? Do you think they had green cards? So the only question is what is the citizenship of the child of Chinese citizens who is born in the U.S.?? The conflict at issue in the case was an act of Congress that purported to disallow Kim Ark's reentry to the U.S. vs the 14th amendment birthright citizenship clause. The 14th amendment won. This isn't difficult or hard to understand.
Green cards didn't exist at the time.
They repeatedly state that Kim Ark's parents are 'subjects of the Emperor of China."
Were they here legally or not?
Who cares? According to the anti-immigrant crowd, citizenship should only be available to children of UD citizens. Neither of his parents were US citizens. You can’t square that circle, no matter how many times you say “yeah, but …”.
The judgement pointed out that while the Wongs were here legally, they reason that they could not become citizens was because China had a law forbidding their citizens to become citizens of another country.
The dissent noted that the decision was decided wrongly because the parents were not citizens and could be recalled to China at any time by their government. Children's citizenship, because they are dependent on their parents, derives from their parents.
“ Children's citizenship, because they are dependent on their parents, derives from their parents.”
And yet the 14th Amendment says the opposite.
"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
^What's that for then?
"This amendment’s language was derived from the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which provided that “[a]ll persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power” would be considered citizens."
The only thing 'opposite' is a popular ignorance of a key-section of the 14th Amendment even though everyone knows it was written specifically for abolishing slavery (non-citizens truly under US jurisdiction and no other 'foreign power's jurisdiction).
You will have to let the Supreme Court know that their understanding of the law is inferior to yours. Oh, wait. They made the ruling in the late 1800s, less than 20 years after it was ratified. They’re dead.
But don’t let that stop you from thinking your brilliant legal mind is superior to all lesser mortals.
The SC's understanding of the law has been shown to be deeply flawed numerous times in the past.
For fucks sake, they can't even get most of the 2A cases right, and the interpretation of that amendment doesn't hinge on how you read "subject".
And they also repeated emphasize that the parents were legal permanent residents. What do you think that means? It means they were as "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US as the law then would allow. "Subject to the jurisdiction thereof" actually means something, and that something, in addition to being born in the US. is required for citizenship. You're right, this isn't difficult or hard to understand.
I am sorry... are you saying the US Sup Ct decision at issue repeatedly used the phrase 'legal permanent resident.' Are you sure about that? I am not even sure that phrase would have been known to the authors of that opinion.
Let me quote from the decision itself:
"The foregoing considerations and authorities irresistibly lead us to these conclusions: the Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes. The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States. Every citizen or subject of another country, while domiciled here, is within the allegiance and the protection, and consequently subject to the jurisdiction, of the United States."
What is the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth? Was that not the rule in the US prior to adoption of the 14th amendment? If not, what are the authors talking about? Why would that ancient and fundamental rule not be known to the drafters of the birthright clause? If they didn't agree with it, why didn't they employ language to limit it?
No, I'm saying the Court repeatedly emphasized the legal domicile of the parents. And so does that passage you quote. Illegal aliens are not legally domiciled here. They are not permanent residents. They have trespassed the borders of this country. You should calm down and come to grips with the reality that you have overstated the scope of Wong Kim Ark.
It's going to the SC after this EO, whether you like it or not. Cry harder.
The SCOTUS is going to have to reject originalism.jus soli is in the Constitution and not just in the 14A. Otherwise it will require a constitutional amendment.
Fun fact, If Trump's order was in effect or the 14th amendment had been enforced, Kamala Harris, as the child of a mother whose student visa had expired at the time of Kamala's birth, and whose father had a valid student visa, would never ever been allowed to run for president as she would either have been a Jamaican or an Indian national. As it stands, her citizenship qualification is highly dubious,.
Well there you go. If Trump's plan takes away her citizenship, then it's a good thing.
Good. Deport her. After she surrenders all her ill gotten assets to one of those democrat taxes she loves so much.
Who, not what. Principals, not principles.
She’s a traitor who is escaping criminal accountability. It’s also far more legitimate than any of the lawfare cases against Trump.
"Children could be denied citizenship even if their parents are here completely legally."
Yeah, and?
Well, isn't the 1898 court basically the same as the 1896 court that gave us Plessy v. Ferguson? And by the rules of wokery, anything a "racist" did must be overturned. Therefore the reasoning in Wong Kim Ark must be overturned as well, because it was the reasoning of "separate but equal" racists. After all, Plessy was overturned by Brown v. Board of Education; Wong Kim Ark could find itself imperiled by the new lawsuits.
Wong Kim Ark was the right decision but with deeply flawed reasoning. There is no reason to add "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" unless it qualifies "born in the United States." The Constitution *already* gave Congress the power to establish a "Uniform Law of Immigration and Naturalization," so it's not like this phrase was needed to be added to cover immigrants. It was another evolutionary language twist, like the 2A's "well-regulated" originally meaning "prepared," not "regulated" in the sense of dystopian central planning. And the 14A does not explicitly repeal Congress' delegated immigration and naturalization powers.
"Subject to the jurisdiction" in the context of citizenship measures, to any sane person, what country has a claim on you as a citizen or subject.
It all comes down to the meaning of the word "and," and how it was most commonly used in the 1860's. If I say "A and B" does that mean "group A and group B" or does it mean the Venn diagram union of group A and group B? Because the word AND could mean both things.
Take the following syntactically ambiguous statement:
"I will give one lollipop apiece to all of the children who are red-headed and female."
Now, I could be giving them to kids who are red headed AND to kids who are female. OR, I could be giving them to only the kids who are specifically red-headed females.
Even in the 1800s, nobody imagined how stupid we'd get and how pedantic they'd actually need to be. Or maybe the ambiguity was intentional so the empire could just do whatever the fuck it wants while rubbing we peasants' noses in it the whole time. Probably that second one, based on the last century and a half of experience.
I doubt this one sticks, and I don't really want it to. If I have a problem with immigrants it's that they too often fail to assimilate (or even try). People who are born in the United States grow up assimilated (or as assimilated as one can get these days).
I know what you're thinking: anchor babies. My argument to that is meh. I value birthright citizenship more than illegal immigrant parents of U.S. citizens sticking around to raise their little American (who can then hopefully grow up helping his or her parents be Americanish themselves).
Agreed. The elegance of birthright citizenship is its simplicity. The kid is American, the parents are not.
This has been a net good for America. We get the children of parents with initiative and drive, who are willing to endure hardship and difficulty to give their child a better life. Those types are much more valuable to a country than born-on-third-base trust fund babies who have had everything handed to them and never had to struggle in their life.
Between nepo babies and anchor babies, the latter are much better for America than the former.
Uh huh, sure.
And what about “children of parents……. who are willing to endure…..” welfare, free education, healthcare and shelter and unlimited pandering from douchebags like you?
“Shut up racist, and pay your fair share to support these aliens!”
Fuck off. You went too far. Time to change that.
Fist is right
As with any constitutional case since mindless legal dolt Biden took office, the birthright citizenship will now turn on "If everybody that can at least legally prove they are born here, can say they are a citizen, why do we have naturalization and citizenship classes. ? "
In other words, being a citizen means nothing in terms of what you attest to or even know,it is like saying you are a dog if you can bark.
Next, I will get on trans dogs 🙂 And Aristotelian teaching on essence.
Considering the degree to which they’ve sidestepped our constitution over the last several decades, I assumed we’ve all already been relegated to noncitizen status.
Indeed. The left has definitely asserted that If you won't support the...
"save [OUR] 'democratic' [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire RULES absolutely"
cause and insist the US Constitution and SCOTUS exists...
You have no right being here or anywhere near D.C.
Humorously; They don't even realize the USA is defined by the US Constitution.
NOT their [WE] Identify-as RULES 'democracy'.
When people get accused of being a traitor the first question to ask is in which 'nation'?
The USA or the 'lefts' Nazi-Empire.
The left literally preaches as-much every-time they refer to the dictators in 'robes' and rejecting electoral vote for 'popular votes'.
Seems to me they’ve had a whole lot of help from plenty of Republicans.
lol.. No doubt about that 🙂 Sadly.
OMG! So the USA can no longer claim jurisdiction over babies born to tourists on vacation! /s
Oh the horror! /s
What a joke of an article.
Reason Magazine: a refuge for the hysterical sophomoric twits that like to type.
I'm not convinced that Fiona isn't just chatgpt with a lazy prompt. It's the same bad arguments again and again.
If I were the lawyer for an illegal alien accused of a Federal crime, I would file an immediate habeas corpus petition, arguing that
1. my client is in fact an illegal alien.
2. the prosecution — in fact, the the prosecution’s boss’s boss’s boss’s boss — has just issued a binding order to the effect that the US government has no jurisdiction over illegal aliens.
3. therefore, my client must be instantly released from custody and any pending legal action be discharged with prejudice.
I doubt it will fly, but you never know.
"Law isn't magic until you get to program your own code from the available set of definitions." 😉
4. Deportation time. See ya in 10 yrs!
I hear everyone trying to make this about illegal immigration, but it isn’t. It’s about the Constitution and the dangerous precedent set by ignoring what it says in order to get what you want.
As written, there is a black-and-white standard for birthright citizenship: whether you were born in the US or not. Trying to muddy up that standard by bringing in irrelevant issues like whether the parents are citizens (which the Amendment was specifically meant to make irrelevant) or legally present (which wasn’t addressed at all in the Amendment) is exactly the sort of thing the Consitution was designed to prevent.
Now, if you want to have a separate discussion about whether or not the parents should be allowed to remain in America to raise their American child, that’s a different issue. But it is, Constitutionally, an American child.
"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
^What's that for then?
Is it about the Constitution?
Or you trying to ignore parts of the Constitution and construe your own 'get what you want'?
I was originally going to make your argument but the last time this subject came up I was quickly corrected by other commenters. And sure enough; it is undeniable that the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was written specifically to eliminate under 'foreign powers' jurisdiction parents. I couldn't have denied it even if I wanted too.
I posted elsewhere both the standard and legal definitions of jurisdiction. Plus, of course, the Supreme Court ruled on it in the 1800s. None of them support denying birthright citizenship.
The phrase was put there for a reason.
That reason is clear by the 1866 CRA predecessor to it.
SCOTUS also thinks "Security for Socialists" is Constitutional. Your Supreme Court "says so" has no actual bearing inside the Constitution itself.
"... and subject to the jurisdiction thereof...." The infant cannot do a better job at what that clause refers to, in this case, can he?
Do parents 'own' their infants or are all infants owned by the State?
Nice try.
How do you decide where an infant was born?
'Where' is only 1/2 of the 14A requirements.
Under which "powers that be" 'jurisdiction' is the other 1/2 (note: 'and')
The infant of foreigners is a spawn of subjects of a foreign-power jurisdiction.
Thus fail to meet the 'and' in the 14A requirements.
And yet they are, as people inside the United States, subject to the jurisdiction of the US. Unless you think they can do things that are illegal in the US, but legal in their own countries, with impunity?
And note that the 1800s Supreme Court case was about the child of two non-citizen parents, so your claim was adjudicated more than a century ago and found to be erronious.
They are NOT subjects of US jurisdiction.
Otherwise they'd be citizens of the USA.
You are doing nothing but trying to deceive the meaning and you know it. Precisely why you're trying to use SCOTUS to cover-it-up.
'Children could be denied citizenship even if their parents are here completely legally.'
Oh no! Just like in those Nazi shit-holes, like France and Norway.
Here's my two cents worth.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside...."
The last three words. "wherein they reside". How in the hell can someone illegally in this country be said to reside in one of the United States? If I come home from vacation and there are squatters with a newborn that have taken over my house, do I tell the police they are trespassers or do I tell them they are just residing in my property? Sorry, diplomates reside; illegal aliens are trespassers. Trespassers aren't covered by this amendment.
She resides "in custody" while there. And yes, even jails and prisons have physical addresses.
Unless they are animals, children are not supposed to be attainted for whatever illegal actions the state may validly have levied against the mother.
How's that? You think just because mommy broke-into the house with a 'child' then the 'child' can claim ownership of it?
They're BOTH trespassing. Just because one-party led the other one there doesn't mean the other is *entitled* to it.
No one thinks breaking into a house conveys ownership. Your analogy is deeply flawed.
Yet you continue to insist breaking into a nation conveys a 'citizen' status ownership of it.
Yes; That is a deeply flawed narrative.
If they have a place where they live, they are residing there. It’s not that hard to understand. Even homeless people are residents of the states in which they reside.
Ya know like those new 'residents' (squatters) inside vacant houses in CA. /s
If you were born to legal American citizens or refugees who fled systemic persecution (not just "crime and violence"), then you are an American citizen.
If you were born to noncitizens who have permission to reside here legally, maybe you have SOME claim to citizenship, especially if your parents do vital work for the economy or government.
If you were born to tourists or illegal immigrants who circumvented the law to be here, then no, you should NOT be a citizen.
This is what most of Americans will agree to. The extremes of both sides will argue either that anyone born in this country should be citizen or that no one born to illegal parents should be citizen.
In the end, most of America will reject the first position. It becomes a matter of common sense. Imagine a scenario in which white Americans go to Mexico and give birth there to obtain their AND the kids' citizenship. "These gringo babies are now Mexicans, ese, just like you", says their government to their bewildered citizenry.
Again, common sense. "But what if 100,000 people came illegally for the purposes of giving birth to their citizenship" was more theoretical back when it was limited to some Chinese mothers giving birth in OC hotels. Now, that has become more of reality. That's what invasions at the border will do.
Most Americans will not allow the nation to commit suicide. America playing the world's orphanage will bankrupt us faster than America playing the world's police. You can argue that they benefit the economy, but if you understand how entitlements work, you know the math is not in your favor.
It seems like Reason is endorsing the Kentanji Brown Jackson view of the constitution, in which 14th and similar amendments grants new rights to a group of people, rather being used to affirm existing rights to end discrimination. Thank goodness the likes of her are a minority in the SC.
Keep wishcasting...
Strangely enough, none of your “these people are worthy” screed is in the Constitution. So who you think is or isn’t worthy is just your opinion.
“ If you were born to noncitizens who have permission to reside here legally, maybe you have SOME claim to citizenship, especially if your parents do vital work for the economy or government.”
Not maybe, not some. This is literally what the Supreme Court case was about and the parent’s work was irrelevant. A child born to two foreign citizens on US soil is a US citizen. You don’t have to like the decision, but you do have to accept that it happened and it exists.
"but you do have to accept that it happened and it exists"
....like all the other blatantly UN-Constitutional crap that gets rubber-stamped by Judicial Activism.
You just as well be championing the Status-quo of the State.
“The screed” is a reasonable position that will embraced by most Americans and more in line with the original intent of the 14th amendment.
People thought the constitution granted them right to abortion for years. Then the SC kicked the issue back to the states. If this reaches the issues, I doubt the conservative side will opine that the 14th intended to give birthright vote ship to vacationing foreigners.
It's not a "right to abortion" it is "The right of the people to be secure in their persons" ... "against seizure".
... and ...
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
The State cannot "seize" a pregnant Woman to reproduce for them.
Even if they want to pull the excuse that it is for "involuntary servitude" to an unborn.
Whether religious nut-jobs want to admit it or not there is an Individual Right to 'own' ones own-self entirely. And it's one of those Individual Rights that make all other Rights even possible. When the state 'owns' a part-of you; they 'own' you completely because the TWO are NOT separate and until they are the Anti-Abortion States are violating the 4A and 13A of the US Constitution.
Pro-Life has literally indoctrinated a 'separate' entity (unicorn) that isn't 'separate' (PERIOD).
The law shouldn't be based on Imaginations.
Or stated obviously....
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom.
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
I did a thorough internet search and the results are undeniable. There is no equivalent Spanish translation of "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,". Therefore, this clause is unconstitutional!
"Y sujeto a la jurisdicción de los mismos."
Ends in "of the same" but that's because they don't have a word for 'thereof.'
What would the status be of the children born in Virginia during the civil war?
Citizens, the Confederacy lost.
Citizens. They were always US citizens, even if their slaveholding betters claimed otherwise.
Children could be denied citizenship even if their parents are here completely legally.
Oh shut up Fiona. It's called the Child Citizenship Act.
Some visa holders maintain a "temporary" presence in the U.S. for decades.
Yea, let's hope Donald puts a stop to that too.
Reason's Jacob Sullum has noted this order "is bound to provoke a constitutional argument that Trump cannot win."
Reason article citing itself! *drink*
The entire topic of birthright citizenship deserves to be debated. While I believe that the courts will probably strike down the executive order, I also believe that this would be against the will of the majority who find the practice questionable.
There is a huge problem with illegal immigration primarily due to incentives favoring illegal immigration over legal immigration. The primary concern at first is to reduce the flow of illegal immigrants.
What is interesting is the corporate media falsely believe that the United States has severe restrictions on immigration, but when compared with much of the world the United States is pretty lax.
In a perfect world there would be no nation states, no borders, however this is not the world we live in. There are too many things to untangle and eliminate before the world is ready for a border-less, citizens of the world scenario.
Indeed. Need everyone forget and end up being media-indoctrinated...
The USA has more immigration than any other large nation in the WORLD.
Well Said +100000000000.
'Could' - except that question is not being asked.
The EO stops BRC for children of illegals without at least one legal-resident parent.
So, no, it couldn't.
Seems like SCOTUS should move this along quickly and bring this debate to an end. If a new Amendment is needed, then that can be started all the sooner.
At least we're finally going to have the debate in a legal framework rather than just among the chattering classes.
Why is Fiona Harrington, a low info regime activist, writing ill informed opinion pieces for a supposedly libertarian publication?
for a supposedly libertarian publication?
Check your premises.