Cutting Off Trade Will Make the U.S. Poorer and China More Totalitarian
Politicians in both major parties see the People's Republic as an economic and military threat. But the real threat is an isolated China.

In a bitterly polarized era, China bashing is still bipartisan. President Donald Trump opens with tariffs, the Democrats call and raise, and then it's Trump's turn to up the ante again. The People's Republic is now almost universally seen both as an economic rival that has ravaged the American economy and as a military rival that threatens American allies and world peace.
It is certainly reasonable to be suspicious of the Chinese Communist Party. Its recent trajectory is dispiriting: Where many of us hoped economic liberalization would produce political liberalization, an authoritarian backlash instead started clamping down on both free markets and free speech. The longstanding repression of ethnic minorities and political dissenters was industrialized and digitized.
And while previous Chinese leaders preferred to set aside contested geopolitical issues and leave them to later and wiser generations, today's wolf warriors have increased military pressure against their neighbors, threatening Taiwan with invasion and other countries with trade coercion.
All the worries about Chinese President Xi Jinping's despotism were enhanced when he maintained his alliance with Vladimir Putin after the Russian leader's brutal 2022 attack on Ukraine. Even for a card-carrying free trader, it may now seem reasonable to screen Chinese investments, to keep the most sensitive technologies out of their hands, and to make sure we aren't too dependent on them for any single resource.
But as a newly emboldened Trump assembles a Cabinet of national security hawks and economic nationalists, we seem to be heading for much more than that. Several of his choices to staff his administration have agitated for decoupling the American and Chinese economies and imposing harsh technology restrictions. And that would not make the situations that worry people about China better. It would make them much, much worse.
***
The first casualty of any trade war is the economy. Many Americans have the impression that only Beijing benefits from U.S.-China trade. But a one percentage point increase in imports from China caused a 1.9 percent decline in U.S. consumer prices, saving a representative American household roughly $1,500 a year, according to one estimate by London School of Economics professor Xavier Jaravel and Federal Reserve Board of Governors economist Erick Sager.
The effect was largest in product categories more popular among low-income consumers, such as apparel and consumer electronics. After winning an election largely because of discontent over inflation, Trump seems ready to start his second administration with tariffs that would raise consumer prices.
And prices are not just about prices. When consumers have more purchasing power, they use it to buy goods and services in other, more high-productive sectors. Higher tariffs would lead to lost jobs, and inputs would become more expensive for American producers.
Some research suggests that competition from international trade can lead to better wages in new roles for U.S. workers. A 2017 paper by the economist Ildikó Magyari estimates that the American companies most exposed to Chinese imports expanded employment 2 percent more per year than other companies did. Some of these were manufacturing jobs—with higher wages, because they are in the stages of production where workers add more value—and some were complementary service jobs, in such areas as engineering, design, research and development, and marketing.
Apple offers a fascinating example. Trump has often complained that China is the biggest beneficiary of the iPhone, just because the devices are often assembled there. But when researchers Kenneth L. Kraemer, Greg Linden, and Jason Dedrick disassembled an iPhone 7 in 2018, they found that almost all of its value was captured by Western producers of parts, including hundreds of thousands of American researchers, designers, programmers, salespeople, marketers, retailers, and warehouse workers. China just got 1.3 percent of the price paid for an iPhone, and that offshoring made it possible to move U.S. labor to the more value-added parts of the supply chain.
Furthermore, more than a million American jobs depend directly on exports to Chinese consumers. About 0.5 percent of the U.S. work force would lose their jobs if the U.S. lost access to its third-largest goods exporting market.
In other words: If Trump passes the tariffs he's been promising, the GOP's newfound identity as the party of the working class would be just a brief stopover on the way to becoming the party of the unemployed class. The economy would eventually find work for most who lost their jobs in this decoupling shock, but those jobs would on average be less productive and pay less, since they would be in sectors where America has less of a comparative advantage.
Still more opportunities would be lost in the future, since protectionism reduces competition and innovation. If the United States shuts its doors to the best manufacturers of, say, electric cars, that may save some jobs in the short term, but it will turn the U.S. into a fenced-off auto show for more expensive and less efficient vehicles. American consumers will have to pay much more, and foreign consumers will be much less interested.
The one obvious benefit of severed trade links—though it could also be accomplished with more targeted interventions—is that America would not risk being dependent on particular resources or goods from China, removing potential Chinese choke points for such items as batteries, chemicals, or rare earth minerals.
On the other hand, the United States would also lose a huge reservoir of production capacity that could have been mobilized to help in an unforeseen crisis. In the first two months of 2020, China imported large quantities of personal protective equipment to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic, from the U.S. and from other countries. Then COVID came to the U.S. while China got a respite and could scale up production. From March through May 2020, China exported 70 billion face masks—more than three times total global production in 2019—thereby giving the U.S. time to redirect our local production.
Safety in supply chains is, after all, created by multiplying options—by having eggs in many baskets, not just ones marked "friends" or "allies."
***
Would decoupling hurt China more than it would hurt the United States? Most likely. But its response would not be to lie down and give up on technological development. It would double down on its strategy of becoming independent of Western technologies.
This pattern has been discernible since the U.S. shut China out of its satellite technology supply chain in the 1990s, prompting China to develop its own capabilities. There is a risk that the same thing is now happening with advanced semiconductors and semiconductor manufacturing equipment, and in other areas. Until now, Chinese smartphone makers have used foreign Android and Linux software. In November, Huawei released its first device with a Chinese-made operating system.
The chief lasting effect of many export controls was for American companies to lose revenue that could have let them spend more on research and innovation.
China's most reliable ally in its struggle is American nativism. In 2009 Erdal Arıkan, a Turkish graduate of the California Institute of Technology and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, solved theoretical problems that made the transition from 4G to the much faster 5G mobile internet possible. Since Arıkan did not receive a green card, he had to leave the United States and turned to China. Huawei used Arıkan's work to become a world leader in 5G and now owns most patents related to his breakthrough.
A United States bent on decoupling from China risks pushing many more innovators and entrepreneurs to the Far East. On paper there are good reasons to stop the export of sensitive technologies to geopolitical rivals, but what good does it do to fence in a geopolitical rival if cutting-edge producers feel the need to join that rival behind the fence?
One German producer of lasers and chip toolmakers, Trumpf, has faced increased obstacles and costly delays after the U.S. government pushed Germany to restrict its exports to China. In response, Trumpf moved some of its 3D-laser-cutting production to China. Hagen Zimer, head of the company's laser operations, said this might just be the beginning: "If I am further penalized with these restrictions and delays on exports to China, then we will just relocate to China," he told the Financial Times in September.
This comes from a company in one of America's closest allies, a country dependent on America's security guarantees. Imagine how countries diplomatically closer to China will react if forced to choose between Beijing and Washington. Surveys of Southeast Asians by the Singapore-based ISEAS—Yusof Ishak Institute reveal that support for China has surged since the recent trade wars started. If the region were "forced to align itself with one of the strategic rivals," the pollsters asked, "which should it choose?" In 2024, 50.5 percent of Southeast Asians surveyed picked China over the U.S.—up from 38.9 percent in 2023.
As former Indonesian Trade Minister Mari Pangestu said in October: "On the ground, two supply chains are developing. We choose both." America is increasingly depriving them of that option.
***
Maybe these hits to U.S. prosperity, employment, and safety would be worth it if they reduced the risk that China will turn in an increasingly totalitarian and threatening direction. But the opposite is more likely.
To understand why, consider that China is currently in decline. Its astonishing growth since the early 1980s was the result of economic liberalization at home combined with a hungry world market abroad. That incredible potential for growth is now gone.
Productivity and growth have been declining in China for a long time, and the data on the economy and employment are so unpleasant that the government hides it in shame. More than half of all indicators published by Chinese statistics bureaus have been discontinued in recent years. The economy is suffering from bad debts, a huge real estate bubble, and a retreat from free markets, all coming at the same moment that catch-up growth is over and the country is running out of labor—by the middle of this century, China will have lost more than 200 million working-age people.
China's GDP per capita is so low now that when it's adjusted for purchasing power, it's similar to the numbers for Gabon and the Dominican Republic. That is why Xi Jinping, who came to office envisioning a "Chinese Dream," now urges young citizens to "eat bitterness."
The country desperately needs a new engine of growth, and that can come only from innovation and disruption. But that is exactly what control freaks are afraid of, and Xi has systematically cracked down on independent entrepreneurs. The very authoritarianism that makes China so scary is what stops it from becoming the leader of the world.
We should welcome the faltering of the world's mightiest autocracy. But it matters how that faltering happens, and what Beijing perceives as its causes. The China hawks who think that this might be the moment to push China into a corner, or over a cliff, should be careful what they wish for.
When economies slow, governments have a harder time keeping the populace satisfied. That often leads them to crack down on dissent. China is now doing the bare minimum to fit into the global order, and it has an awful human rights and civil liberties record at home. There is a great risk that a declining, more isolated, and less interdependent China could be much worse on both fronts.
What if China's leaders see an economic collapse as something imposed by a hostile West rather than as the consequences of its own misguided policies? What would a party that has built its legitimacy on raising living standards rather than ideology do if it feared losing power? What if it had already paid the price, in terms of losing economic and technological exchange, that would otherwise hold it back from lashing out?
***
The risk of a war between the U.S. and China is often analyzed through the prism of the Thucydides Trap, the political scientist Graham Allison's word for the tension when a rising power (like Athens, in Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War) is seen as a threat to an established one (Sparta).
But this mostly explains war from the perspective of an old hegemon. Why would an upcoming revisionist power ever start a war? Why not wait until you have risen further? In this case, the trap that "time is running out" is more relevant. History has many examples of powers that had been rising for a while but then suddenly found their paths forward blocked. That changes the calculus.
If a rising power can see a future in which it prospers and is allowed to take its place in the established world order—or become so dominant that it can easily replace that order—it makes sense to hide its strengths and bide its time, as Deng Xiaoping encouraged the Chinese to do. But delay is defeat if further rapid growth seems impossible: if it suffers demographic decline, or if geopolitical rivals decide to starve it of resources or markets. Then the country must either accept that it will never realize its grand ambitions, or lash out.
This is what the political scientists Hal Brands and Michael Beckley call "the danger zone." In such moments, a revisionist power often acts aggressively, to seize what it can before it is too late. The most dangerous trajectory in international politics, they conclude, is a long rise followed by the prospect of a sharp decline.
One example is Germany before World War I. After several successful decades, Germany feared losing ground to a rapidly growing Russia, and its rivals were building militaries that would soon be superior. Meanwhile, Britain and France were restricting German access to oil and iron ore. And so Helmuth von Moltke, chief of the German Great General Staff, declared in 1912 that "war is unavoidable and the sooner the better."
Japan's authoritarianism and imperialist ambitions grew in the late 1920s and the 1930s as its growth faltered and protectionism shut its overseas markets. By 1941, a rapidly rearming United States imposed an oil embargo that threatened Japanese expansion. Time was quickly running out for Japan, but it still had a temporary advantage. Prime Minister Hideki Tojo concluded they had no choice but to "close one's eyes and jump"—and on December 7, 1941, Japan struck.
In the same vein, Putin started his wars of conquest against Georgia and then Ukraine amid the global financial crisis and then the COVID-19 pandemic recession.
Chinese leaders might think they are approaching such a now-or-never moment, with economic and demographic decline setting in just as its rivals are trying to rein China in on all sides. At 71, Xi might very well feel it on a personal level.
Down the road, China might not have sufficient interest, capacity, or manpower to threaten the United States. But right now we are in a danger zone, and it has to be handled with great care. What is holding Xi back from an invasion of Taiwan? The risk of failure, of course, which would end his rein in ignominy. But if the Communist Party feels that it is losing its grip on its people at a time of economic turmoil, it might think it's worth a huge risk by starting a war that could inflame nationalist passions—especially if the Chinese people believe other nations have ganged up on them to wreck their economy.
Another thing holding China back is its stake in the remnants of an open world economy. It is still heavily dependent on global markets and the international financial system. The fact that Xi has not gone all in with arms and resources to Putin's war reveals how much China treasures its economic relationship with the West. Secondary sanctions would be very harmful.
Similarly, Xi knows an invasion of Taiwan would result in an economic war with the West that would cause China tremendous pain. But what if China had already been deprived of those lucrative markets and had already lost access to investments and technologies it needs? Then it would already have paid the price that would otherwise deter it from going rogue. It would have had the time to prepare itself, by protecting assets, hoarding resources and making itself technologically self-sufficient. The Chinese Communist Party would be freer to follow its ambitions and fears.
According to the international relations scholar Dale Copeland, countries that expect the global economy to remain open usually prefer to find a peaceful place within it—but change their behavior when there is a risk that it will slam shut. When ports and sea lanes start closing, countries fear losing access to essential resources and markets. And then they feel a greater incentive to seize them by force.
Right now, both American and Chinese hardliners seem to be working hard to reach such a perilous stage. What was it Sun Tzu once said? "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "The Real Threat Is an Isolated China."
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It is certainly reasonable to be suspicious of the Chinese Communist Party. Its recent trajectory is dispiriting: Where many of us hoped economic liberalization would produce political liberalization, an authoritarian backlash instead started clamping down on both free markets and free speech.
So I've noticed, but what's it doing in China?
So the author states that his fundamental belief turned out to be compleatly opposed to reality, the continues to say we should follow his already proven wrong belief because now it might be differen
This is the standard Illogical construction of open border acolytes. It will be different this time. Ignore historical information.
TWAT historical information? When and where have open borders... Open to peaceful immigration, that is... Lead to horrible, horrible things? I mean, horrible things OTHER than JesseBahnFarter-Fuhrer SNOT accruing tremendous political power?
Every once in a while I unmute you to see who you are and what you wrote. Who you are is a retard that masturbates in a diaper. What you wrote is some kind of Klingon gooble gobble that makes no fucking sense. Now imma mute you again.
Those who know nothing and have no answers, are the same ones who call childish names and spew hate. Shit is the "best" that they can do!
Lol
Tyrants don't go quietly into that good night. A crackdown in China is a necessary sign of their defeat, while a a crackdown in the US is a necessary sign of our defeat.
"A crackdown in China is a necessary sign of their defeat,"
It's a sign the authorities fear the public. It could be a good thing and a sign of hope. Anyone familiar with 5000 years of dynasty destroying peasant revolts in China would welcome the cracks.
Increasing reliance on surveillance technology by the Chinese regime could create an opening for rebellion. Cyber warfare by the people against the government could end up playing a similar role to the secret manufacture of firearms during the Red Turban revolt against the Mongols.
"Cyber warfare by the people "
Cyber messages in cyber moon cakes.
This was the hope,now dashed that the Chinese would demand a free economy. The CCP brainwashing was too much to overcome.
Maybe Biden and the Democrats can get all China markets BANNED and not just TikTok. Then no-one will have to worry about Tarrifs (taxes) that are but HALF the rate of domestic taxes. /s
The BIGGEST reason China products are so much cheaper is neither China (export exempt) nor the USA (Tariff free) taxes that production route what-so-ever. How does anyone expect DOMESTIC manufacturing to go anywhere while being taxed as high as 80% especially when its competition is 0%????
OR how about we just sell the entire USA to China under some multi-part Nippon-like Steel deals?/s OR maybe, just maybe attempt at restoring the USA to what it actually is instead of a Nazi-Empire which originally funded the National Defense government (Fed) entirely through Tarrifs which makes all the sense in the world.
"OR how about we just sell the entire USA to China"
That's probably going too far. I suggest Wyoming. No American would miss it, and it's a fantastic potential source of bear gall bladders, owl eyes and elk penises.
No American would miss you.
You forget the very useful concepts of ip thefts and slavery that help China quite a bit
The BIGGEST reason China products are so much cheaper is neither China (export exempt) nor the USA (Tariff free) taxes that production route what-so-ever. How does anyone expect DOMESTIC manufacturing to go anywhere while being taxed as high as 80% especially when its competition is 0%????
The difference between a small government and big government mindset is the small government notion is to reduce/remove domestic taxes to match imports while the big government idea is to increase tariffs to match domestic taxes and costs.
The small gov plan benefits the consumers and the large gov benefits and ever-grows the state.
The difference between a small government and big government mindset is the small government notion is to reduce/remove domestic taxes to match imports while the big government idea is to increase tariffs to match domestic taxes and costs.
Well said.
The small gov plan benefits the consumers and the large gov benefits and ever-grows the state.
It also benefits politically connected industries. Politicians can say "Look at the jobs we saved!" while everyone else pays more for everything they buy. Concentrated benefits and dispersed costs. A politician's wet dream.
Entirely correct.
Minus the ZERO-Taxes lobby is about $35,367,764,000,000 late to the ballgame.
Ahhhh senior fellow at the cato institute that explains the retardation
CATO is captured by China at this point. Started when soros got involved with them.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lauriebennett/2012/03/13/the-kochs-arent-the-only-funders-of-cato/
Slew of left wing organizations including soros.
"One German producer of lasers and chip toolmakers, Trumpf, has faced increased obstacles and costly delays after the U.S. government pushed Germany to restrict its exports to China. In response, Trumpf moved some of its 3D-laser-cutting production to China. Hagen Zimer, head of the company's laser operations, said this might just be the beginning: "If I am further penalized with these restrictions and delays on exports to China, then we will just relocate to China," he told the Financial Times in September."
So now new-POTUS Trump will have to conquer not only Greenland, Panama, and Canada, butt also, Trumpf and Germany! Today, all of those; Tomorrow, the WORLD, Baby! Make Earth Great Again!
The author is the same guy who in 2012 urged us to ignore faith-based prohibitionist asset-forfeiture looting that confiscated grow houses and crashed the mortgage-backed derivatives market before dragging down the entire economy. Others less dense understood the connection and the ensuing wave of marijuana legalizations has blocked a repetition. Yet Norberg's recipe, like Herbert Hoover's, was not repeal, but MORE GOVERNMENT BONDS! This is evasive blindness. https://reason.com/2012/04/17/financial-crisis-ii/
Every company that has moved to China has had
it technology stolen its leaders threatened and escaped
back to civilization.
The War On Drugs that weaponized asset-forfeiture looting BEGAN in China, after a princeling overdosed on opium. Fanaticism increased to precipitate at least 2 opium wars, a fratricidal revolt and overthrow. In 1905 the Quing blocked U.S. exports to get Teedy Roosevelt to ban opium worldwide. Hence the Drug law, 1907 Panic, Hague deals, WW1, Hyperinflation, Geneva prohibitionism, Crash, Banking Panics, Hoover-Anslinger-Hitler disaster, WW2, 1987 and 2008 Crashes. China's trade boycott was the first domino, and you know what turnabout is, right? https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/2023/07/13/exporting-drug-prohibition-1931/
If China invades Taiwan, and that's looking increasingly likely, we're going to war. It will be a hot war or a cold war, but war nonetheless. Then instead of tariffs it will be a full blown embargo, as in no trade at all with China. Some might say that China wouldn't do that on Trump's watch, but why not? He's trying to end trade with the country anyway.
They did it first in 1905, and the U.S. media and government caved. When Hitler (elevated thanks to Hoover prolonging the slipper-licking) began slaughtering Jews, many urged a boycott of Nazi goods. The threat--countered by threatening Jewish hostages in Germany--sufficed to blanket ongoing Christian National Socialist genocide in secrecy and misdirection. The whole point of Trading With the Enemy Acts was to stop draining the assets of freedom into totalitarian rearmament while clinging to prohibitionism like a drowning man clinging to an anchor.
Interesting to mention Taiwan/Formosa, the coca farm that glutted the eastern world in coke after dwarfing Peru and Bolivia. After the U.S. installed a series of bloody prohibitionist dictatorships in the Philippine Islands--before and after Japan did the same--patriots got stuck with a Monroist semi-independence run by murderous U.S. DEA puppets. So... who made even communist China seem like the lesser evil?
Where many of us hoped economic liberalization would produce political liberalization, an authoritarian backlash instead started clamping down on both free markets and free speech. The longstanding repression of ethnic minorities and political dissenters was industrialized and digitized
Who could have fucking guessed that money != freedom?
Oh right, anybody that rejects Homo Economus.
Why should we care if China becomes more totalitarian?
Isnt china basically totalitarian already?
Yes it is, and no we shouldn't. How about you billion people rise up and fix your own shit. I thought Reason hated nation building.
I thought Reason hated nation building.
Only when it's done by the wrong team with other people's money. Otherwise, fuck Putin.
'Where many of us hoped economic liberalization would produce political liberalization, an authoritarian backlash instead started clamping down on both free markets and free speech.'
So, you were wrong about your delusional expectations last time, but are absolutely right this time?
" started clamping down on both free markets and free speech."
It was widely taken for granted that free speech would have to follow economic liberalization. It was assumed nobody would participate in free markets without a guarantee of the free flow of information. China overturned those assumptions.
Right - so the assumption that money and economic liberalism lead to greater freedom.
Since they don't the can't be held over our heads when it comes to policy.
"Right - so the assumption that money and economic liberalism lead to greater freedom."
Money does lead to greater freedom. Ask any Cambodian of a certain age. The Pol Pot regime banned money to curb freedom.
Liberalism means more freedom than illiberalism. By definition.
So, you were wrong about your delusional expectations last time, but are absolutely right this time?
Yeah but the delusional expectations before were made without the clear-headedness of having lived through a Trump Presidency. The new delusional expectations contain all the extra clarity and wisdom attained over the last 8 yrs. baked in.
China hasn't become *less* totalitarian during the last 50 years of robust trade.
Correct. The just modernized Chineses feudalism, from peasants working on farms to peasants working in factories.
The number of Chinese with passports has risen dramatically during the past 50 years,
In 2012, over 38 million Chinese citizens held ordinary passports, comprising only 2.86 percent of the total population at the time.[9] In 2014, China issued 16 million passports, ranking first in the world, surpassing the United States (14 million) and India (10 million).[10] The number of ordinary passports in circulation rose to 120 million by October 2016, which was approximately 8.7 percent of the population.[11] As of April 2017 to date, China had issued over 100 million biometric ordinary passports.[12]
They enjoy the potential of visa-free travel to 85 countries, a significant improvement of freedom. Similar rise in driver's license and car ownership. Similar for home ownership.
"China hasn't become *less* totalitarian"
I understand it is important for you to believe that, but facts show something else.
Facts that contradict the Trumpian narrative are leftist.
You ignore social credit score - those people who get those passports? They're the ones that obey the Chinese government in all things.
"They're the ones that obey the Chinese government in all things."
Not even the Chinese government obeys the Chinese government in all things. If you're curious, ask me about the chaos that ensued when the Beijing government attempted to impose day light savings time across the nation.
China isn't as monolithic as your TV talking heads tell you.
You’re correct, China recently had their own January 6.
Missed it. Damn their accursed lunar calendar.
It happened nonetheless.
Also, China issues 16 mil passports to ours in a single year - ignoring that China has 4 times the population.
Doesn't look so good when you consider that.
" ignoring that China has 4 times the population."
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm simply telling you that the view that China is more totalitarian than it was 50 years ago is ill informed and incorrect. But I understand how important it is for you to believe otherwise. I can only suggest if you are curious, do some research on the matter.
50 years ago they were communist. Now they’re Natsoc, I guess from a certain point of view that’s a kind of progress.
However, the people of China can afford to buy these extremely expensive properties. In fact, 90% of families in the country own their home, giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. On top of this, north of 20% of urban households own more than one home, according to Nomura ....
Once the down payment is accounted for, getting mortgages in China is a relatively straight forward affair, and the standards for qualifying are relatively low. For the most part, a borrower’s monthly salary must be at least twice the monthly repayment rate of the loan. Interest rates hover around 6%. On average, those who have these loans will devote between 30% and 50% of their monthly income towards paying them back.
While there is much talk in China and abroad about the increasing number of Chinese home buyers taking out mortgages, relative statistics should quell the hype. Just 18% of Chinese households have mortgages, compared with half of all home owners in the USA. China’s home mortgage-to-GDP ratio was just 15% in 2012, whereas in the USA it was a staggering 81.4%. Although monthly wages in China tend to be relative low, non-performance on mortgages is virtually unheard of -- in 2013 the default rate was a mere 0.17%.
Some notes: China is a family oriented society. Typically Chinese rely on their family, not the government. That's their first allegiance. Also, the homes are not up to US standards. They aren't the stacked wire cages you find in Hong Kong, but are leaky and crumbly. They are only built to last a few decades.
Call us when all those passport holders can travel outside China when and where they want, you retard.
Leave your name and number and I will call you cunt.
It's funny that Russia, which actually is a run-down and broken husk of its former might and demonstrating social fissures within, is an existential threat that we have to throw billions against. But China, which literally became a Communist Dictatorship, again, during 'economic liberalization' (a policy initiated and espoused by some of our country's most manipulative and despised statesmen) is more or less the same as any other national power operating on the world stage so why shouldn't we get cheap/free shit from them?
Maybe these hits to U.S. prosperity, employment, and safety would be worth it if they reduced the risk that China will turn in an increasingly totalitarian and threatening direction. But the opposite is more likely.
On the plus side, it makes them more justifiably nukeable.
China is now doing the bare minimum to fit into the global order, and it has an awful human rights and civil liberties record at home. There is a great risk that a declining, more isolated, and less interdependent China could be much worse on both fronts.
So let them. Let them become North Korea. Their belligerence will increase as they lash out at everyone but themselves for their folly, and it will make nuking them far more justified.
You think I'm joking. I'm not. China needs to be nuked at least twice.
Down the road, China might not have sufficient interest, capacity, or manpower to threaten the United States. But right now we are in a danger zone, and it has to be handled with great care.
There's a tool for that. It's called a nuke.
This is not sarcasm. Nuke the f out of China right now.
And then give Russia and Iran a menacing glare.
What was it Sun Tzu once said? "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."
Sun Tzu also said, "Appear at points which the enemy must hasten to defend; march swiftly to places where you are not expected." And, "There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare."
Do not forget that China is our enemy. If not our mortal enemy. We don't need to go to war with them. We just need to bring them to immediate and unexpected heel (so, backpack them in there through Vietnam or something; no need to use the ICBMs), and we need to do it with such overwhelming force that they never recover.
Nuke China. I am not being facetious or sarcastic. You hit Beijing and Shanghai in a surprise attack, and you solve a LOT of the world's problems overnight.
And before Russia or Iran can get a word out in protest, you swing around fiercely and scream in their face, "WHAT? WHAT BITCH? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT? WHAT???? Yea, that's what I thought. Now shut the f up."
And then nuke Tehran just for having the audacity to even think about criticizing us for it.
I am dead serious.
You know China has nukes and ICBM's, as well as nuclear submarines, right? I'd suggest learning about MAD theory, which is not a particularly new theory but one that has held true for most of the last century.
Yea, let 'em try.
What'll they hit? New York? DC? Frisco? LA? Seattle? Atlanta?
We can shoot their nukes out of the sky. And even if we can't, those cities are all expendable.
One EMP burst high in the atmosphere could set us back 100 years.
You're grossly underestimating. Three or four EMP bursts could shut down the entire US power grid. We would be back not 100 years, but to the stone age. 90% of us would be dead within a year.
And the 10% that matter would rebuild.
Amazing what a diet of cockroaches will do for someone determined to survive. Unfortunately the commenters here would prefer death.
Weird, right?
Assuming they strike back.
Which, ideally, is a thing we'd prepare for. We move fleets of aircraft and land vehicles underground. We archive everything of historical value and safeguard it. And even if we screw all that up, - I mean, it's not like Americans are incapable of dealing with hardship. The guns still work. We've still got plenty of automobiles that aren't electronics dependent. Homesteaders and homeschoolers know how to farm and raise livestock. I'm literally baking a loaf of bread right now. If I have to do it with fire instead of gas or electricity, I'm sure I can figure it out. It wouldn't be as bad as you think.
The blue metropolis centers might fall, but honestly isn't that kind of a feature and not a bug?
"We've still got plenty of automobiles that aren't electronics dependent. "
How many is plenty? Once upon a time, steel, glass, rubber and plastic accounted the bulk of the cost. These days, if I recall, something like 60% of the car's cost comes from the electrical equipment. I once worked in a factory that produced nothing but sensors for the passenger seat. The idea was to determine if the passenger was mature (ie heavy) enough, and deploy airbags if necessary. Children can apparently be injured or killed by airbags and the sensors were made, sold and eventually installed to take care of that. Needless to say, these sensors were electrical, only one of the huge array of such systems you find in cars today, yes, even gas burning cars.
Oh gosh, so the passenger side airbag doesn't deploy. Well, I guess we should just roll over for our new Chinese masters then.
"Well, I guess we should just roll over for our new Chinese masters then."
That'll happen regardless of airbags. Creditors set the agenda, debtors follow it.
What do you mean by cars that don't depend on electricity? You believe you'll be driving them after an EMP burst?
I think it's very easy to rebuild a vehicle that never relied on computer components than it is to rebuild one that does. If there's a lesson to be taken from Cuba, it's how to keep the cars working when modern tech isn't accessible.
Battery, distributor, alternator, spark plugs. None of those are complicated repairs.
Let's ban Tik-Tok and keep the pornography websites and apps going, right?
Serious, yes. Rational and moral, no.
And your mother's basement is probably not an effective bomb shelter.
It's perhaps just as likely, if not more so, that a China that can not import or export as freely would turn on itself rather than any external actor.
The fact is we should probably not rely on countries that consider us an enemy for trade of any kind, even if it benefits consumers in the short term.
Perhaps the most amusing part of all this is the notion that free nations should trade with slave states. It amounts to a concession that slavery itself is not a problem, but rather where those slaves are located is the problem.
Or, put more simply, slaves here at home are a bad thing but slaves abroad are a good thing.
When asking yourself what the competitive advantage is to trading with China, this invariably is one of the reasons. Somehow it's better to offshore jobs to China to be done by the permanent underclass than it is to cut regulation here in the United States. We tell children that the friends they keep are the kind of person they want to be, but ignore this basic truism in who we trade with as nations.
It never fails to amaze how insulated and ignorant the average American is on what the baseline human condition is. A lot of the decisions 'we' make here in the states are entirely predicated on that ignorance, which is just insane and cannot last. Reality will always assert itself, and usually sooner rather than later.
slaves here at home are a bad thing but slaves abroad are a good thing.
With open borders, we have plenty of slaves here in the USA.
Thank god for that. Who else is going to fight our wild fires for a few bucks a day?
I've only met one slave in my life. A housekeeper in Taiwan. She was middle aged at the time and after many years of servitude was receiving a small stipend, but as a child she was given to the family because her father couldn't cover his gambling debts.
It amounts to a concession that slavery itself is not a problem, but rather where those slaves are located is the problem.
Welcome to Reason. The real problem with slavery in this country is that the
slavesundocumented workers won't identify as LatinX and neuter their children when we tell them to.Having spent 10 years working with and teaching international trade law all over China here's my take. China will always remain totalitarian towards its own people, along with Taiwan if China takes it over, regardless of its trade policies and practices as long as the Communist Party rules. Look no further than Hong Kong, where the last traces of past political freedom are all but invisible. Treating China as a main trading partner tells China it's ok to be repressive and it is hard to see how a more isolated China would be any more totalitarian than it currently is. Those of us who once bought into the author's theory now know better from first hand experience. I can make a case that the Chinese people will throw the Communists out only when totalitarianism caused by isolationism or anything else increases.
And this assumes that tariffs will decrease trade. Why are we supposed to continue to be the chumps who foot the bill for the rest of the world?