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Immigration

If You Want Mass Deportations, You Can't Have Less Government

Trump’s immigration agenda runs headfirst into his government efficiency initiative.

Matthew Petti | 11.26.2024 5:15 PM

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Motorist stopped by Homeland Security officer outside New York Immigration Court at 26 Federal Plaza in New York. | Erik Mcgregor/ZUMA Press/Newscom
Motorist stopped by Homeland Security officer outside New York Immigration Court at 26 Federal Plaza in New York. (Erik Mcgregor/ZUMA Press/Newscom)

Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy have one job: to cut the size of government. President-elect Donald Trump asked their Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) to advise the administration on how to "dismantle government bureaucracy" within a year and a half. On the Lex Fridman Podcast earlier this month, Ramaswamy explained how deep the envisioned cuts are.

"If your Social Security number ends in an odd number, you're out. It ends in an even number, you're in. There's a 50 percent cut right there. Of those who remain, if your Social Security number starts with an even number, you're in, and if it starts with an odd number, you're out. Boom. That's a 75 percent reduction," Ramaswamy said. "So now imagine you could do that same thought experiment, but not just doing it at random."

It's hard to square those kinds of cuts—or any cuts at all—with Trump's plan for "the largest deportation program in American history" as soon as he comes into office. The Department of Homeland Security, which would be responsible for immigrant roundups, has the second-largest civilian staff of any federal agency. In fact, any serious deportation program would probably require hiring more government employees.

Lex Fridman, host of the Lex Fridman Podcast, asked Ramaswamy about exactly that issue. Ramaswamy tried to downplay the cost of immigration enforcement. "If you look at the number of people who are looking after the border, it's not even 0.1 percent of the federal employee base today," he said. That's not quite true. Together, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Customs and Border Protection employ 88,000 people, out of a total federal civilian work force of 2.3 million, comprising nearly 4 percent of federal employees.

And actually carrying out deportations on the scale Trump wants might require doubling the size of the Department of Homeland Security, which currently employs 222,539 employees total. A report last month by the American Immigration Council calculated that rounding up all 13.3 million undocumented migrants would require hiring 220,000–409,000 federal government staff and cost $89.3 billion. Staggering the roundups at a rate of 1 million per year would similarly require hiring 30,000 new staff and cost $77.4 billion.

Trump has promised to use "military assets" for mass deportations, likely by having U.S. troops help set up detention camps. There are 392,897 active-duty U.S. Army soldiers and 314,693 Army National Guardsmen stationed on U.S. soil, according to the most recent deployment numbers. Although they might be able to reduce some of the burden on civilian federal workers, not all troops can be pulled away from their duties, and not all the tasks of deportation can be done by soldiers.

For example, one of the biggest bottlenecks in deportation is the immigration court system. Even setting up tent-style courtrooms would add $34.1 billion to the cost of deporting all 13.3 million undocumented migrants at once or $12.6 billion per year to the cost of deporting 1 million immigrants per year.

The issue of immigration courts raises another problem. In a Wall Street Journal essay announcing DOGE's mission, Musk and Ramaswamy complained that most government decisions "aren't made by the democratically elected president or even his political appointees but by millions of unelected, unappointed civil servants within government agencies" and promised to liberate the country from those bureaucrats.

The immigration system, though, is exactly that kind of bureaucracy. Immigration "courts" aren't real courts, part of the judicial branch and overseen by independent, appointed judges. Instead, immigration "judges" are attorneys from the Department of Justice's Executive Office for Immigration Review. The immigration system gives bureaucrats even greater power to impose life-altering consequences on people than the other regulators Musk and Ramaswamy have taken aim at.

On the conflict between mass deportations and reining in the federal bureaucracy, Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule put it well: "Friends, I'm afraid you'll have to pick one and only one."

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NEXT: Donald Trump Wants To End E.V. Subsidies. Gavin Newsom Is Trying To Save Them.

Matthew Petti is an assistant editor at Reason.

ImmigrationBig GovernmentFederal governmentBorder patrolDeportationDonald TrumpTrump AdministrationElon MuskVivek RamaswamyDOGE
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  1. Dillinger   7 months ago

    yes it has been shown for millennia contemporaneous exercises cannot exist.

    1. JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   7 months ago

      What's funny is CNN just had a story of Haitians leaving Springfield. Amazingly if they aren't given welfare and excused from normal civil and criminal violations, they move on.

      1. chemjeff radical individualist   7 months ago

        Not even CIS, your favorite site, claims TPS recipients get federal welfare benefits.

        And no they are not immune from criminal behavior.

        TPS recipients get work permits. That's the 'welfare'.

        If I were in their shoes I would seriously consider leaving too, since I wouldn't want to be rounded up into camps.

      2. chemjeff radical individualist   7 months ago

        It is both sad and ironic that you all don't even realize that the "eating pets" rumor was the Haitians' 'Nick Sandmann' moment. They were maligned and treated horribly based on a rumor, which blew up to a national scale. At least Sandmann was able to get some justice, all the Haitians are getting is contempt.

        1. sarcasmic   7 months ago

          Jesse opposes libel, slander and defamation laws. Vehemently.

          Not that that’s a surprise considering that he spends most of his time telling lies about people.

          1. Don't look at me!   7 months ago

            Ideas™ ! Not people.

            1. sarcasmic   7 months ago

              *Unmute the idiot. *

              Smart people discuss ideas, event and people.

              Average people discuss current events and people.

              Stupid people discuss people.

              Painfully stupid people think they’re clever when they shout “ideas” at smart people when people are discussed.

              You make my head hurt.

              *Mute the idiot. *

              1. Don't look at me!   7 months ago

                Sarc gets mad when he gets caught.

                1. JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   7 months ago

                  Sarc is a raging immoral alcoholic whose only love greater than alcohol is rank hypocrisy.

          2. chemjeff radical individualist   7 months ago

            Jesse is totally on favor of defamation laws when it's against his tribe.

    2. Chumby   7 months ago

      Yup. Title is an “either-or” fallacy.

      1. mad.casual   7 months ago

        Nothing left to cut!

        What is with these retards constantly critically undermining their own ethics by pretending like the *rest* of government spending doesn't exist?

        Even the illegal immigrants aren't fooled and they don't even speak English.

  2. JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   7 months ago

    The government is already there. Cost 150B a year.

    You have 2 options. Deport or end the welfare state.

    The current system is not libertarian.

    1. Chumby   7 months ago

      ^ This. The govt is not hiring 72,000 Immigration Relocation Service (IRS) agents to carry out this effort.

    2. sarcasmic   7 months ago

      Exactly zero libertarians said the current system is libertarian. Zeee-ro. You’re arguing with a strawman.

    3. chemjeff radical individualist   7 months ago

      Reminder: It's Jesse who wants to spend billions on illegal immigrants, not libertarians.

      1. Chumby   7 months ago

        Jesse wants to spend billions to clean up a mess that was created by team MAPe(D)o to save hundreds of billions and get rid of MAPedo kiddie diddlers, thousands of rapists, and thousands of murderers.

  3. Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)   7 months ago

    Yes you can, bmass deportation and cut the 1.5 trillion in regulation burdens, cut hhs, cut cia/nsa/doj/doe/dol. See you can do both

    1. Brett Bellmore   7 months ago

      Of course you can. The OP's argument is so stupid I feel embarrassed calling it an "argument". Of course you could increase government efforts in one area that currently consumes a tiny, tiny fraction of the budget, and still reduce the overall size of government.

  4. sarcasmic   7 months ago

    He’s going to raise tariffs without raising prices and cut federal revenue without raising the deficit. Why can’t he round up, house, process and deport millions of illegals without more government? He’s obviously got magical powers or something.

    1. Don't look at me!   7 months ago

      Poor sarc. The loss is too much for him.

      1. JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   7 months ago

        The most amusing thing his him and Jeff still don't realize their open borders into a welfare state is Marxist.

        1. chemjeff radical individualist   7 months ago

          You're an idiot who doesn't even know what Marxism is.

          1. Don't look at me!   7 months ago

            I’m not sorry this is happening to you.

            1. Chumby   7 months ago

              You get top marx for that observation.

    2. Red Rocks White Privilege   7 months ago

      There's absolutely no correlation between tariff rates and inflation rates. Zero. Zilch. Nothing.

      1. sarcasmic   7 months ago

        Economists define inflation as a general rise in prices. If Trump gets his way and hikes tariffs on all imports, that will cause prices to rise.

        1. Red Rocks White Privilege   7 months ago

          There's absolutely no evidence over the last 150 years that tariff rates correlate with inflation rates. If that was the case, inflation would have skyrocketed after Smoot Hawley, not kicked off a 4-year deflation cycle. If that was the case, low tariffs should have prevented the nine-year inflation cycle from 1974-1983 from happening. But it didn't.

          Claims about the apocalypse of tariffs have about as much credibility as the claims about climate change.

  5. Homer Thompson   7 months ago

    free housing, free health care, and free food equals less government

    1. SQRLSY   7 months ago

      Well, when we near-enslave underpaid illegal sub-humans to provide us with near-free housing, near-free health care, and near-free food, then we can firmly expect to need MORE, not LESS, Government Almighty to keep all of the near-slaves in their proper places!!!

      (All of this shit ass provided by illegal sub-humans would a LOT cheaper, were it not for parasitical Government Almighty micro-management!)

      1. CountmontyC   7 months ago

        So free the slaves and send them home.

  6. MasterThief   7 months ago

    I'm confused by how Petti thinks this is a rational argument against the action.
    First off, his case would be better made if he acknowledged that his 13m illegals figure is an extremely low estimate. He limits military resources to just the army and yet reveals that we already have sufficient personnel. The cost of doing so according to this is much less than they already cost the taxpayers.
    I'm actually fine if Trump doesn't follow through with mass deportations. However, the border needs to be brought back into lawful compliance and the threat of deportations should stay in place. It's cheaper to disincentivize illegal immigration to the point that they self-deport and stop trying to enter.

    1. Fetterman's Hump   7 months ago

      Trump should start with the 1.2M illegals that already have removal orders. Start with them on January 20th. That will keep ICE busy for a year or two.

  7. Earth-based Human Skeptic   7 months ago

    'If You Want Mass Deportations, You Can't Have Less Government'

    What a fucking retard. I guess the 98% of government that has nothing to do with immigration and law enforcement just can't be reduced if we want to deport people.

    1. Wizzle Bizzle   7 months ago

      LOL. When I read the headline, I uttered the words, “What a fucking retard.” Then I skipped whatever semi-factual horseshit he wrote and came down here to be with the last of the sentient beings. And Jeffy & Sarc.

  8. chemjeff radical individualist   7 months ago

    It's the closed border retards who want to spend billions on illegal immigration. Cages for penniless Guatemalans aren't free. Constructing the wall, and guards to patrol the wall, aren't free. Bullets to murder unarmed children in the desert aren't free.

    1. Red Rocks White Privilege   7 months ago

      chemfat with his retarded "no u" retort because his fellow child molesters might have to go back home.

  9. The Margrave of Azilia   7 months ago

    The Adrian Vermeule quote, in full, is:

    “(1) Mass deportations; (2) “abolish the administrative state!”

    “Friends, I’m afraid you’ll have to pick one and only one.”

    The reference to the administrative state is to the system where supposedly expert administrators exert adjudication and rulemaking powers (or as a critic might put it – bureaucrats making laws and wielding judicial authority).

    Prof. Vermeule specializes in administrative law and teaches future federal administrators at Harvard Law.

    His argument appears to be that you need administrative law, with limited judicial review, to carry out all these deportations.

    1. Brett Bellmore   7 months ago

      Sure, you can't do mass deportations and completely eliminate the administrative state. But completely eliminating the administrative state is an end goal for libertarian anarchists, it's not even a minarchist goal.

      If you make the situation hard enough for illegals, such as seriously going after their employers, most of them will self-deport. And going after the employers is ordinary law, since employing illegal aliens is already... Illegal!

    2. mad.casual   7 months ago

      At this point, "Harvard [insert degree or practice here]" should connote "Not to be trusted even to get basic facts straight, let alone any logical elucidation from said facts, any further than they can throw their alma mater's endowment."

      The same goes for some other inept, woke Universities, like Columbia, as well.

      [Glares in the Neil "Because discrimination on the basis of homosexuality or transgender status requires an employer to intentionally treat individual employees differently because of their sex" Gorsuch's direction]

  10. Liberty Yeti   7 months ago

    It costs the same to keep them here or throw the bums out, but at least when we throw the bums out, they’re not killing the wildlife, straining housing, hospitals, and schools, or committing violent crime. And then others are discouraged, instead of encouraged, from overrunning communities and becoming a general nuisance.

    57% agree: DEPORT THEM ALL.

    Over 70% agree with getting rid of a large portion of them.

    Take your open borders dumpster fire and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

    1. DaveH   7 months ago

      https://www.npr.org/sections/planet-money/2024/11/26/g-s1-35805/chinese-expulsion-act-railroads-immigration-crackdown

  11. AT   7 months ago

    FINE MATT. THEN WE WILL HAVE MORE GOVERNMENT FOR AWHILE.

    However many cops and agents and bounty hunters it takes. Kick these criminal scumbags OUT.

    Scumbags like you are why we had to elect an Orange Clown to deal with this. You made it either/or. Fine. We chose to boot out the criminal aliens.

    Get on board, or get out.

    1. charliehall   7 months ago

      Being in the US illegally isn't a crime. Using the US military for civilian law enforcement is.

      But the 34x convicted felon never did care ablut the law.

      1. Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment   7 months ago

        You.
        Are.
        Full.
        Of.
        Shit.
        And you prove it every time you comment here.
        FOAD, shitbag.

        1. Wizzle Bizzle   7 months ago

          Chuckle

      2. Red Rocks White Privilege   7 months ago

        It actually is a crime, you neocon dumbfuck. And if using federal troops to enforce the law is a crime, Eisenhower never should have used federal troops to integrate Little Rock.

        Now go fuck off back to Patterico's where you belong, vermin.

  12. Kazinski   7 months ago

    Here is my deportation plan:

    Levy A $5000 A month civil fine for employing each illegal alien, with a safe harbor for using E-verify, and allow private suits to enforce violations with attorney fees to the winner (that will de-incintivize frivolous suits, while encouraging complience).

    Allow employers to avoid liability by terminating unlawful employees by giving them $1000 severance and a return ticket to their country of origin.

    1. charliehall   7 months ago

      The entire food industry would cease to function. Massive inflation in food prices and actual shortages.

      That on top of the big increase in energy prices caused by the tariffs on oil imports from Canada.

      We will look back longingly on the modest levels of inflation during Biden's presidency.

      1. Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment   7 months ago

        You.
        Are.
        Full.
        Of.
        Shit.
        And you prove it every time you comment here.
        FOAD, asshole.

        1. Wizzle Bizzle   7 months ago

          Double chuckle

      2. Red Rocks White Privilege   7 months ago

        The neocon claims US industries are too incompetent to innovate if they don't have peon labor.

        The neocon should go play in traffic.

  13. Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment   7 months ago

    What a pile of shit! 'If you want fewer murders, you can't have less government'!
    Matthew Petti needs to stuff his TDS up his ass so his head has some sorely needed company and then fuck off and die, asshole.

    1. Wizzle Bizzle   7 months ago

      You're kind of an angry person. Thank you for that.

  14. It's only a paper moon, Nominalists   7 months ago

    Less crime
    More jobs for citizens
    Less drain on sccial programs
    Army and Nationall Guard having something to do

    You have no point.
    Do you really defend that letting them in in the first place gave us less government -- ABSURD

  15. DaveH   7 months ago

    And then there are the new federal employees and contractors who will be needed to create and operate the concentration camps.

  16. CLM1227   7 months ago

    How daft can Reason get? If you want LESS government, you limit immigration to people with similar values and who don’t need government handouts and can provide for themselves.

    If you want smaller government, you don’t do open borders, idiots.

  17. John Rohan   7 months ago

    We don't need to hire millions more. In the 1950s, Eisenhower managed to deport about 1 million illegal immigrants with a team of 750 immigration and border patrol officers and personnel, and only 300 jeeps, cars and buses!

    But even if we did need large numbers, we got them. We have more than just the Army. There are 1.4 million military active-duty service personnel, and about 778,000 National Guard and Reservists. I heard a crazy rumor that the Department of Defense also has massive transportation resources like thousands of trucks, planes, and ships! We pay for them, let's put them toward something useful.

  18. Kyle T   7 months ago

    Yes, the government can walk and chew gum.

    Shipping out those with crimes committed in the US (660,000) and with deportation orders (1,300,000) should not cause an uproar out side the far left loonies.

    Cutting all free housing, food, clothing, etc. will cut government spending at least as much if not more than the deportation. Any jurisdiction will have government funding cut by the expenses provided to illegals. With no benefits, many will self-deport.

    ICE at every asylum hearing, removing the illegal upon receipt of the deportation order.

    Keep every new crosser at the border or in Mexico. Do not let them into the US. Anyone crossing outside an authorized entry port is immediately shipped out without hearing as they could not even follow the simplest of rules. If you cannot cross at an authorized port, you are automatically rejected for asylum. Anyone caught with contraband is immediately expelled. Contraband is not with someone seeking asylum by fiat.

    Have asylum judges at the border. EVERY single male 15-45 should be adjudicated immediately. Cut the line to keep potential terrorists out of the country.

    No one had their panties in a wad when Obama deported 3,000,000. I guess he had the correct party (D)esignation.

    1. John Rohan   7 months ago

      Most of those deportations under Obama were immediate returns, simply pushing them back over the border, just to return again.

  19. mad.casual   7 months ago

    In fairness to Petti, his assertions of the government ineptitude of which he approves tracks pretty well with the FEMA response to Helene.

    1. mad.casual   7 months ago

      Will consume any amount of money to do things it's not supposed to to, unable to do the things it's nominally supposed to do for any amount of money.

      Fuck you, Petti.

      1. It's only a paper moon, Nominalists   7 months ago

        Grow up, cowardly asshole.
        Clean up your mouth, learn how to talk, be an adult

  20. It's only a paper moon, Nominalists   7 months ago

    and if you want government and not mass rioting and the Biden Hell Hole
    Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua infiltrating 16 states

    you must want deportation.

  21. TJJ2000   7 months ago

    Difference being.
    Protecting the State's against invasion.

    *IS* a US Constitutional JOB of the "Union of States" government.

    One thing about the [D]-party.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Everything the USA *is* is BAD to them.
    If the US Constitution provides for it; that is bad.
    If the US Constitution prohibits it; that is good.

    Literally the Anti-USA party of illegal [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism].
    Treasonous traitors (enemies) of the USA.

  22. It's only a paper moon, Nominalists   7 months ago

    Reason has for years avoided real analysis of any issue as soon as they see some hobby horse they can mount. Here it 's less government, so getting rid of murderers , terrorists ,and bestial gangs means nothing. you can't quantify it so it doesn't exist.
    The old Ayn Rand positivist bullshit.

  23. Vondy   7 months ago

    Petti consistently creates false dichotomies and dialectical double binds. The two are not mutually exclusive. Our government is massive. You can cut some things and not others. It's called setting priorities and allocating budgets. Shockingly enough, Americans are capable of deciding where they want their dollars to go and, yes, walking and chewing gum at the same time. We can liberalize immigration laws and close the border all at one time. We can cut some agencies while funding others. We can reduce benefits while paying down the debt. We can develop new weapons systems while cutting down Pentagon waste. That the priorities that people voted for contradict Petti's priorities doesn't mean they are dissonant or unachievable. Hey, Matt! Your epistemology is weak, and you need to get over your own cognitive dissonance vis-a-vis what you want and what is and isn't possible Creating false paradigms and dichotomies doesn't make them so.

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