'It's the First Amendment, Stupid': Federal Judge Slams Florida for Threatening TV Stations
The state has been demanding that TV stations remove political ads in support of a reproductive freedom amendment on the ballot this year.

Floridians this fall will vote on a constitutional "Amendment to Limit Government Interference with Abortion." So authorities decided to interfere with free speech in an attempt to thwart voters from limiting the government's right to interfere in reproductive decisions. The state threatened TV stations with criminal penalties for running an ad supporting the abortion initiative (known as Amendment 4).
A federal judge isn't impressed. "To keep it simple for the State of Florida: it's the First Amendment, stupid," wrote U.S. District Judge Mark E. Walker in an October 17 opinion.
Walker temporarily enjoined Florida from attempting to censor the ad, granting the temporary restraining order request sought by Floridians Protecting Freedom, the group sponsoring Amendment 4.
"Importantly, this is a temporary restraining order, which is not generally appealable," noted legal writer Chris Gender, author of the Law Dork newsletter, on BlueSky. "The preliminary injunction hearing is scheduled for Oct.. 29, and the state could appeal from that."
Florida has been pulling out all the stops to try and stop Amendment 4 from passing. The state has been using taxpayer money to run ads in opposition to the amendment while trying to prohibit people from seeing an ad in support of it.
The ad in question is "political speech—speech at the core of the First Amendment," notes Judge Walker. "And just this year, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the bedrock principle that the government cannot do indirectly what it cannot do directly by threatening third parties with legal sanctions to censor speech it disfavors. The government cannot excuse its indirect censorship of political speech simply by declaring the disfavored speech is 'false.'"
This is the rub of the state's argument against Floridians Protecting Freedom's ad. It features a woman called Caroline who was diagnosed with brain cancer while pregnant with her second child. "The doctors knew that if I did not end my pregnancy, I would lose my baby, I would lose my life, and my daughter would lose her mom," she says. "Florida has now banned abortion, even in cases like mine," she ads.
The Florida Department of Health alleged that the ad constituted a "sanitary nuisance"—an act "by which the health or life of an individual, or the health or lives of individuals, may be threatened or impaired, or by which or through which, directly or indirectly, disease may be caused." John Wilson, former general counsel with the department, sent letters to Florida TV stations saying that anyone found to be committing such a nuisance must remove it within 24 hours or face legal proceedings, including possible criminal proceedings.
While TV stations have a right to broadcast political ads, this does not include "false advertisements which, if believed, would likely have a detrimental effect on the lives and health of pregnant women in Florida," Wilson told TV stations.
This is incorrect: TV station are not required to fact-check political ads before running them, nor to take down ads simply because they contain matters of disputed fact or statements that officials say are untrue. If this was the case, it would allow those in power to chill or shut down all sorts of political speech simply by asserting that the content of the speech was false.
"There is no 'general exception to the First Amendment for false statements,'" noted Walker, citing the 2012 Supreme Court case United States v. Alvarez. "Falsity alone
does not bring speech outside the First Amendment absent some other traditionally recognized, legally cognizable harm," since (Alvarez again) "it is perilous to permit the state to be the arbiter of truth."
(For the record, Florida's six-week abortion ban does contain exceptions for abortions needed to save the life or "a major bodily function" of a pregnant woman. But what types of scenarios fall under this exception is a matter of a discretion for doctors and the state.)
After Wilson's letters went out, "at least one of the TV stations that had been running
Plaintiff's advertisement stopped doing so," noted Judge Walker.
Floridians Protecting Freedom responded by filing a complaint with the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Florida, arguing that its First Amendment rights had been violated. The group asked the court to find that Wilson and Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo had engaged in unconstitutional coercion and viewpoint discrimination and to issue a temporary restraining order against Lapado, who is in charge of Florida Department of Health, from taking further action against the ad or entities that broadcast it.
At an emergency hearing on October 17, the state claimed that it was enforcing a generally applicable law and thus immune from a First Amendment challenge.
"Nonsense," wrote Judge Walker. "Defendant's cases addressed a different issue—namely, whether enforcement of a law of general applicability against the press, which incidentally affects the press's ability to gather and report the news, offends the First Amendment. That is not this case. The issue here is whether the State can censor core political speech under the guise that the speech is false and implicates public health concerns."
Walker also rejected the idea put forth by the state that the Caroline ad constituted an "imminent threat" to public health. Speech is only an imminent threat "when it incites or produces imminent lawless action, or poses a clear and present danger by bringing about the 'substantive evils' that the government has a right to prevent, like obstacles to military efforts, obscenity, acts of violence, and charges to overthrow the government," he wrote. "But there is no suggestion that Plaintiff's ad would bring about the 'substantive evils' that the Supreme Court has recognized, nor is there any suggestion that Plaintiff's ad would cause individuals to take any imminent lawless action."
The judge ultimately determined that Floridians Protecting Freedom are likely to succeed on the merits of this case and issued a temporary restraining order against Florida's Surgeon General, forbidding him "from taking any further actions to coerce, threaten, or intimate repercussions directly or indirectly to television stations, broadcasters, or other parties for airing Plaintiff's speech, or undertaking enforcement action against Plaintiff for running political advertisements or engaging in other speech protected under the First Amendment." The restraining order is valid until 5 p.m. on October 29. A preliminary injunction hearing is scheduled for earlier that day.
"Of course, the Surgeon General of Florida has the right to advocate for his own
position on a ballot measure," wrote Walker. "But it would subvert the rule of law to permit the State to transform its own advocacy into the direct suppression of protected political speech."
"This critical initial victory is a triumph for every Floridian who believes in democracy and the sanctity of the First Amendment," Lauren Brenzel, campaign director of Yes on 4, said in a statement. "The court has affirmed what we've known all along: the government cannot silence the truth about Florida's extreme abortion ban."
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But it’s ok to jawbone social media companies.
Vdery good comparison!
This wouldn’t be necessary if lying were criminalized.
“ authorities decided to interfere with free speech in an attempt to thwart voters from limiting the government’s right to interfere in reproductive decisions.”
Since the baby is already alive inside its mother, reproduction has already occurred.
Abortion is murder. Inciting violence is already a crime, and not protected speech.
Once again, another “judge” is simply lying.
You'd be in jail for life, Nazi shit.
I’m not worried.
Between the two of us, you’re the only proven liar.
Shouldn’t you be in Iran, fighting for international terrorism?
That’s your job. You’ll recognize the Israel that’s on trial in the UN for genocide in Gaza.
Between 40:40 and 43:45 in the video Israeli terrorism is demonstrated .
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
Lying judges, lying politicians, lying lobbyists, people lying to themselves.
All meaning in communication originates and depends entirely upon the definition of the words we use.
Yet our dictionaries aren’t secure. Definitions ostensibly depend upon the credibility of correctly applied logic and science but not always.
This is logically proven when words have conflicting definitions when used in the same or overlapping context.
Viability is such a word.
Many things are viable generally defined as the ability to continue successfully.
Using this definition a baby is viable at any age if it has the ability to continue living uninterrupted.
But the word is also defined as the age at which the unborn could be interrupted in their in utero development and still survive outside the womb.
No definition of viability logically requires the impossibility of invincibility. Nothing would be “viable”.
Therefore in the context of an in utero baby, before 22 weeks (the earliest surviving baby), the two definitions of viability are contradictory. One or both must therefore be in error.
The “pre-viable” baby is absolutely viable if it isn’t interrupted.
This language ERROR is designed and exploited by liars.
It is. The two things are not at all the same.
In what way?
See below.
Yes. Requests and threats of prosecution are two very different things.
The government in the social media requests never threatened to use force and, when refused by the companies, continued to not use force.
Are you incapable of understanding the difference between "repercussions for refusing the givernment" and "no repercussions for refusing the government"? Or do you just need to make false analogies in furtherance of a fake persecution narrative?
Fucking idiot. The government has no business making any “requests” to censor speech.
It's not a request to censor speech. Censorship requires force or consequences. The government regularly makes requests of industries and companies throughout the economy. There isn't anything nefarious or wrong about making a request. Retaliating for a refusal is where it starts to be a problem.
How many examples do you want of Democrats threatening companies for misinformation?
Whatabiutism is an admission that you're wrong.
Democrats have done bad things, I agree. What does that have to do with Ron DeSantis' government censoring speech?
Are you also an apologist for the Mob? It's OK if they extort by threats that they fail to act on, right?
So it’s ok if I request a blowjob from my secretary everyday but she doesn’t suffer repercussions for refusing?
Do you idiots really think sexual harassment and mob extortion are the same as government requests? Actually, you probably do.
You lost.
Yes, the logical one always loses ... if you're a paleocon. You fools couldn't find a relevant analogy with both hands and a flashlight.
Poor Nelson.
Pro-Life is nothing but a Catholic Democrat initiative.
The RINO'S carrying water for the cause are simply that ... RINOS.
REAL Republicans wrote Roe v Wade; and rightfully so.
Florida should pass Amendment 4 and end the RINO Womb-Slave State.
They should pass it because they have Liberty and Justice principles.
Liberty for the Woman.
and Liberty for the Baby.
not
Enslave the Woman.
Enslave the Baby.
because they have some 3rd party wild unicorn imaginations fueled by BS Catholic Democrat propaganda.
If you cannot support 'baby' freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
A woman, six weeks pregnant, goes to a clinic and has an abortion. She has misgivings, but it's just a clump of cells.
The same woman, six weeks pregnant, in a happy and stable relationship, wakes with odd pains in her abdomen. She miscarries.
She mourns the loss of her child.
Same woman. Same duration. Yet one is a 'clump of cells' and one is a 'child'.
All that changed was her desire at the moment.
NO ONE'S life should be reduced to the desires of a moment.
Good point; though probably not the one you're packing.
Miscarriage versus "loss of a child".
The only difference is the BELIEF (Religion) of the person.
Religion is PERSONAL not a subject of the State packing Gov-Guns.
I don't think women have souls, so I can treat them as chattel!
That is indeed the very argument Pro-Life makes.
You literally described two different women.
And yes, things are complicated. That is why I don't want to get involved. If its a 10% threat to the woman's life, is that good enough? How about 20% (or 5%). Who does the math?
When should the state police get involved? The courts?
Egg was fertilized and failed to implant? In 3 states, human life begins at fertilization. So... its an unattended death - should the police get involved?
What about rape? Is it the fetus's fault the father is Trump? No (calm down, it's a joke). So why do some states have an exception for rape (or for incest)?
Bottom line, it is potentially complicated and a decision best left to the woman and her doctor. If she is in a stable relationship with the father, she would have told him and he would have been involved.
"Judging men on the content of their character rather than the color of their skin is complicated. That is why I don't want to get involved. If it's 90% character and 10% the color of their skin, is that good enough? How about 80/20 (or 95/5)? Who does the math? When should the state police get involved? The courts?" - con_fuse9
Again, if you can don a lab coat, or simply possess a vagina, and authoritatively declare what everybody knows to be something other than *just* a clump of cells to be a clump of cells, and then destroy it, denying it all the other rights it was going to have in the process, then authoritatively denying it all the other rights it would have with out killing it is literally a foregone conclusion, comparatively simple.
If we litigated everything based on how comparatively simple-minded you are, your murder would be the easiest task to accomplish.
"denying it all the other rights it was going to have"
Even you admit it is a potential, future person. Potential person vs. actual person should never favor the potential person. Viability is the dividing line.
When does a human become unique? My definition is unique DNA. Yours is probably a birth canal fairy.
"When does a human become unique?"
DNA isn't relevant. Unique isn't relevant. Viable is relevant. Unique is a red herring that anti-abortionists desperately want people to accept, but almost no one does because it's not just irrelevant, it's transparently irrelevant. Only those who start from an anti-abortion position would ever arrive at the conclusion that unique is relevant.
The position that rights are endowed at conception is even less supported than abortion until birth, and neither of them have much support.
If a fertilized egg has rights, IVF leads to murder. If you don't think rights attach at conception, where do they start and what is the rationale for that point?
"Yours is probably a birth canal fairy."
As a rational basis for legislation, viability is my definition. For myself, personally, it's a little earlier. The earliest a fetus has been delivered and survived is 21 weeks. That's my personal definition.
Perhaps everyone can keep their, “My definition is…”, to themselves being it’s really nobodies else’s concern (i.e. It’s PERSONAL). And just BACK THE F’OFF the Gov-Gun lock-step conformist usage. Eh?
Where's the arguments against an Individual Right to Fetal Ejection?
Why? Because your definition of when you're allowed to murder others reveals you as an evil sociopath?
Exactly what part of relocation (Fetal Ejection) = murder?
You Pro-Lifers make up ‘imaginary’ crimes like you make up ‘imaginary’ babies.
Just chuck full-of BS PERSONAL imagination excusing your religious tyranny.
Viability is the wrong line.
At end of life the cessation of brain waves is the accepted dividing line. It should be the same at the start of life. That would be about 20 weeks, so the line should be a bit before 20 weeks.
+1
If your organs are failing or you have terminal and I smother you without regard for any sort of consent, the law doesn't say, "Welp, they were no longer viable." The law says you robbed them of what life they had.
Heartbeat and brainwaves would be closer to 12 weeks. Which is still past the point when medical abortion stops being clearly effective and, IMO, still gets to the point where rape and incest exceptions start not making sense. How long do you get to wait to decide you were raped?
So you think Pro-Life advocates get to write the "Living wills" of fertilized eggs just because the "Living" part never happened?
Or do you think someone's "Living will" that states no extensive life support should be ignored by Gov-Guns because pulling life-support is murder?
Maybe. Just maybe. There isn't a 'right' to Gov-Gun FORCED life-support in the first place. Rights are *INHERENT* not 'Grants' to others abilities/labors.
How come nobody who offers "but what about the health of the mother" is actually willing to accept that as a real compromise? The vast majority of abortions are done for convenience, not because the mother's life or even health is in danger.
Probably because the premise that rights should be surrendered if someone else objects is unacceptable to those who support liberty. Why not just ask anti-abortionists to accept viability as a compromise, since according to them pro-choice supporters all want abortion even after birth? That’s much more rational than adding an exception or two onto “no abortion except …”. Abortion bans before viability are philosophically incompatable with liberty.
That deserves a repeat +100000000.
"Probably because the premise that rights should be surrendered if someone else objects is unacceptable to those who support liberty."
Abortions that are related to saving the life of the other barely exist. Nearly all abortions are about convenience.
Owning one's own self (body) is just a "convenience"?
It's a bloody *inherent* human right - not just a "convenience".
You’re excusing baby murder. Stop.
What baby?
Either put that baby into existence or it’s just an imaginary creature fairy-tale figment of *Your Own* imagination. There is no Justice in making up crimes against your *imaginary* unicorn.
If you watched me encase an unbroken egg in concrete once hardened would the unbroken egg cease to exist?
You’re insane.
"Nearly all abortions are about convenience."
And? Who cares? Until you can prove that there is a rational reason for a fertilized egg to have rights, your outrage at the majority of people who think your belief is insane is impotent.
All persons, including the unborn, have the inalienable right to life.
Maybe you need to pretend that you have a vagina. Pretend that you're pregnant. And pretend that you have the right to make the correct decisions about your spawn - like the other men with vaginas in the commentariat - and unlike all those women with vaginas who can't seem to make the correct decisions.
All multi celled organism are ‘clumps of cells’. Its a meaningless term.
Indeed. The only meaningful discussion is *inherent* rights.
Yes, like a baby’s right to stay alive.
There is no ‘right’ to stay alive at others expense (because it isn't *inherent*).
You just as well be lobbying for Gov-Gun FORCED organ donation.
Please explain how this is any different or reasonable.
I have a right to your extra Lung to 'stay alive' because you have no right to 'own' your own self/body and if you don't give me your lung so I can 'stay alive' you're a murderer.
It’s a Democrat argument through and through.
Claiming one has a right to others possessions and making endless self-entitled bigoted excuses to that end. Rights are *inherent* not ‘Grants’ to others possessions.
Those damn Democrats running the state government just can't help but to censor the opposition. What? Florida? Oh, then it was ok because Democrats did it first, and the judge was wrong.
Conservatives only believe in free speech when it's free speech they like. As such they're pretty much identical to Leftists.
Every lawschool dropout knows this is blatantly unconstitutional, but Florida Man is just hoping to stall the inevitable until after the election. Such fucking hypocrites.
I don't know about conservatives, but I do know the two of you love to believe in strawmen.
Serious question though. If the advertisement was arguing for rape or pedophilia or killing all the Jews should that law apply?
Which law? The sanitation law they are invoking really doesn't seem to be appropriately applied here. Reading the statute, it seems pretty clear that it is about doing things that directly affect health and sanitation, not ideas that might encourage people to do things that might endanger them. The First Amendment always applies.
SCOTUS pretty much said that the ban has to be content neutral.
"Serious question though."
Not really. Claiming a parallel between abortion and heinous crimes is pretty clearly bad faith. As is most anti-abortion rhetoric.
No, pro abortion rhetoric is nearly always on bad faith. Nice try though.
Sure, the anti-abortion people who think a fertilized egg is a person are the ones operating in good faith. *eyeroll*
Democrats launched the Pro-Life movement.
Conservatives wrote Roe v Wade.
RINOS only believe in free-speech when it’s free speech they don’t like because they’re just Democrats carrying a Republican flag.
As-if Dobbs “let ‘democracy’ decide” wasn’t a dead give-away.
Ironically; Dobbs should be the Democrats (i.e. ‘democracy’ is everything) flagship.
It’s what their entire parties foundation sits on.
...and as Democrats always do...
'democracy' only counts if they win-it.
A smart person would notice which idiots positively respond to their insanity. You're not a smart person.
I'm not sure which is worse here, the censorship attempt or the fact that the government is lobbying for a particular electoral outcome.
The blatant dishonesty of the ad and flagrant defamation of doctors, even those who would nominally provide abortions in defiance of any law that performed in the way the law is falsely alleged to apply doesn't help either.
Well, then the doctors can sue for defamation.
No standing, Moot point. If I ran an ad saying "The governor thinks is should be illegal to jab Zeb in the eye with a stick. It would be dangerous to let that law pass." the ad stays up, right? I didn't specifically threaten you. It's just a policy opinion and until you get jabbed in the eye with a stick, no harm.
Again, you play retarded like we haven't been walking down this road for a decade, with organizations like Floridians Protecting Freedom digging all the firmament out from underneath it every step of the way. If Project Veritas caught a member of Floridians Protecting Freedom talking about selling baby parts and factually presented it to the public, they'd get sued into the ground. But FPF deliberately misrepresents things to the public and there's no actionable content. And, once again, to protect *against* something the law doesn't actually do.
You aren't this dumb Zeb. Why would you choose to be this stupid about this (non-)issue? They don't care about free speech. They don't care about protecting women. They don't care about an informed electorate. If they did, it would be an ad advising women of which doctors and lawyers would interpret the laws correctly and provide them with the utmost care. It would be a factual statement of what the law did and why they should oppose it. But it's not that, because they don't care about those things. They care about scaring women and you into supporting them in whatever action they may take.
"If Project Veritas caught a member of Floridians Protecting Freedom talking about selling baby parts and factually presented it to the public, they’d get sued into the ground."
That's because Project Veritas would deceptively edit the video first, per their usual behavior. Their "well, we also released the unedited video later" shtick is transparently false, since they intentionally alter and release videos substantively defaming people by creating a false impression of what they said and did. The "selling body parts" bullshit is a perfect example.
"And, once again, to protect *against* something the law doesn’t actually do."
Hiding behind "a doctor has to assume the government won't persecute them for their medical opinion" is the worst sort of cowardice. Just behind it is "the TV stations have to assume the government won't persecute them for airing disputed content", especially in DeSantis' Florida.
"They care about scaring women and you into supporting them in whatever action they may take."
No, they care about getting an amendment passed that will stop the government from persecuting women who get abortions and stopping the government from injecting itself into a woman's medical decisions. They are using a real-world example of the dangers a woman and her doctor might face at the hands of a government that supports draconian abortion bans as a way to highlight how dangerous anti-abortionists are.
You just don't like that every time an abortion amendment is on the ballot, the anti-abortionists get their asses kicked because no one likes a totalitarian.
PV always posted the entire footage on their website Ms Maddow.
And yet they edit and release and promote their deceptively edited version. Notice the raw footage always makes their edit seem like deceptive editing. Because it is.
Look atbthe "selling body parts" video for a classic example. They have the credibility of Alex Jones.
So where did you get your information about PV?
CNN? MSNBC?
Attack the messenger? So you know you're wrong. Noted.
Nelson is lying again. PV doesn’t edit footage that way. First they release an excerpt, then the whole thing. This gets false accusations like your out of tue ay early.
You’re just a liar. You almost always lie.
"First they release an excerpt"
No, they release an edited video that splices together scenes to make things seem like there is something bad happening. Then afterwards, they release the unedited footage after they have promoted their fraudulent one on right wing news sites. Example A is the "selling body parts" video that, unsurprisingly, turned out to show no such thing.
"PV doesn’t edit footage that way."
They have been caught repeatedly editing and releasing their misleading edit, promoting it on right-wing silo news sites, then claiming that the edited video is the real story.
James O'Keefe is a fraud and a huckster. The fact that you believe anything he's associated with speaks volumes about you. None of it good.
"You’re just a liar. You almost always lie."
I never lie. I've been mistaken, but when my mistake is pointed out, I own up to it. I have never intentionally stated anything here that I know to be untrue.
The thing you don't like about me is that I disagree with you on issues of cultural coercion, which you support and I oppose.
My principles say if something is wrong, it's wrong regardless of who does it. I don't have a preferred outcome, probably because I don't support a party or a person unconditionally. If it's Bob Menendez or Donald Trump, it doesn't make a whit of difference. They're both criminals and fraudsters and dirtbags.
You believe that only one side is capable of acting corruptly. That's why you aren't a serious or credible person.
You lie every time you say that something is true when you don’t know it is.
Based on the fact that you’re often mistaken, you should get used to prefacing everything you say with the disclaimer that you don’t really know.
Or should we just assume that?
When you’re “mistaken” in an argument, you don’t “own up to it”. You just cut and run.
Like the last time we discussed abortion.
“We agree that the fetus is alive. That’s something.
You simply deny that a fetus is a person, based on its age.
Firstly there is no rational correlation between age and the definition of a person or the right to life.
Secondly since there is no mention of age discrimination against the right to life in the constitution, your position is unconstitutional.
Let me walk you through the correctly applied science and logic, so you don’t become lost.
This easy to follow string of definitions clearly demonstrate that the authority that gives meaning to all language, dictionaries, recognizes the unborn as persons,
Unborn unique DNA = individual = human being = person = child = baby
Definition of DNA fingerprinting
the use of a DNA probe for the identification of an individual
Definition of individual
A person
Definition of human being
“any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.”
Definition of person
“a human being, whether an adult or child:
Definition of baby
A human fetus
Definition of child
A human fetus
Dictionary.com
Now the choice is once again yours.
Recognize the truth that a fetus is a living human person, being sane, or don’t and be an insane advocate of murder.”
You cut and ran.
https://reason.com/2024/09/22/im-pro-life-but/?comments=true#comments
The only falsely alleged premise of the law is falsely pretending the law exempts cancer patients (which it doesn't).
It exempts 'serious risk' but doesn't make any mention about *who* decides what that is or what it entails. It's literally putting a 'dictator' in charge of every situation to determine what is 'serious' and what isn't.
And a doctor risking his license/practice/freedom based on a potentially wrong decision.
Sorry lady, find another doctor willing to take that risk.
Who other than doctors can make that determination? You honestly think Florida would stop a woman from getting an abortion if it means saving her life, even though text of law allow that to happen?
I’ve seen all kinds of deceptive pro abortion ads in CA, including ones that scaremonger about police monitoring pregnant woman. 1A prevents the government from regulating tv content for veracity. Otherwise, Donald Trump would have a field day over the media dismissing plain evidence of Biden’s decline as “deepfakes”
If you lie and call black people inhumane, you can’t be thrown in jail. It still means you’re a lying racist. FL is right on the substance and wrong on the solution. Some women misled by these ads might try to take risks to end her pregnancy. The fact that it doesn’t constitute “immediate risk” to public health doesn’t mitigate the dangers of such deception.
Do you know how often the Biden admin tried to suppress actual truths? The left literally tried to downplay the effectiveness of life saving Covid medication. You know what they say about that people in houses.
"You honestly think Florida would stop a woman from getting an abortion if it means saving her life, even though text of law allow that to happen?"
Yes. The state has a 6 week abortion ban. They can't be trusted to act decently, period. Fetus uber alles is the driving ethic, freedom be damned.
"Some women misled by these ads might try to take risks to end her pregnancy."
What risks? Abortion is extraordinarily safe, especially in the first trimester. Even the second trimester doesn't have any unusual hazards for similar medical procedures. If it's acceptable to let a woman consent to the dangers of breast augmentation, there's no justification for preventing them from consenting to an abortion.
Which week is decency?
Decency is leaving medical decisions between a doctor and their patient. Decency is having some sort of rational basis for legislation, not "heartbeat" bills that kick in a month before a fetus has a heart and four months before they have lungs. Decency is as far from the anti-abortion movement as it gets.
Your understanding of gestational development and medicine I’m general is lacking. So you should really stop.
Why are you democrats always so ignorant and idiotic?
but, but, but “The Science” is why the Constitution can’t exist!!!! /s
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons” … “against” … “seizures, shall not be violated”
“involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
It only takes one word to flip a Pro-Life Republican into a Democrat.
I would say it goes the other way around but Democrats also supported the 4A & 13A destruction (championed erasing RvW). But I will say no other topic makes them notice the "Individual Rights" over 'democracy' more-so than that same one-word 'abortion'.
"Your understanding of gestational development"
The heart doesn't form until 10 weeks. At 6 weeks there's a cardiac tube that will, in a month, become a heart.
Your ignorance is noted.
That tube is the heart forming. It is beating.
I don’t think lack of education is your problem. Your irrational tendency to believe as true what has been demonstrated false is.
“Week 6: Tiny buds that become arms and legs also develop. Blood cells are taking shape, and circulation will begin. Structures that’ll become the ears, eyes and mouth take form. Your healthcare provider can probably detect pulses in the cluster of cells that will form the heart on a vaginal ultrasound.”
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/7247-fetal-development-stages-of-growth
Support the Individual Right to Fetal Ejection and find out.
Rolling the dice on "which week" the Gov-Gun tyranny starts/stop is a small part of the problem.
Roe v Wade was already too Pro-Life in that respect. It allowed State-Women slavery post-viable and as it always goes ... Where a little UN-Constitutional POWER is granted it's always MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Guns (Power corrupts absolutely).
Either way. The court outcome should go way beyond a simple restraining order. Florida should be fined many millions of dollars. This sort of action should have a massively punitive cost
Indeed ... but until you quadruple that punitive cost for actual Democrat Congressmen and the Biden Administration you're just building a partisan warfare game.
'Floridians this fall will vote on a constitutional "Amendment to Limit Government Interference with Abortion."'
Why stop at birth? How about a constitutional amendment to limit government interference with infanticide? Then we can pretend to argue about age limits.
Government interference in the killing of human beings is an unconscionable breach of individual liberty and lying your ass off in order prevent such interference is a completely valid tactic.
This is completely different that preventing the Right from spreading disinformation and misinformation.
+1
Hunter Biden’s laptop and "6 feet of separation" are good intentions beyond reproach but Florida being clear about “Our law isn’t preventing doctors from saving lives.”, or taking action against ads that force them to do so, is just how free speech is supposed to work.
The particular issue is irrelevant. If there was a ballot measure to legalize murder, it would still be inappropriate for government to lobby for a particular electoral outcome. This is both misuse of a public health law and a blatant first amendment violation.
The particular issue is irrelevant.
Says who? If the law says "It's illegal to murder people." and I run an ad saying "Vote against the law. It promises to sell poisoned milk to schoolchildren." I'm every bit as culpable of election fraud as someone showing up at people's doorstep to tell them their special election day is Nov. 8th. Especially if I raised money in support of opposing the murder law or against selling milk to school children.
“It’s illegal to murder people.”
Wrong. The law being pitched is....
"It's illegal not to procreate."
Otherwise everyone would have the right to Fetal Eject.
Pro-Life's problem is they think not creating something is 'murdering' it when really the only thing getting murdered is their own BS religious fantasies they refuse to even try to put into existence. Because they know they can't. They want to ENSLAVE Women to make the BS they dreamed up in their heads.
A baby in the womb is already created. Killing it in the womb isn't preventing creation, it is murder.
So where’s the law against removing it but not “killing” it as you’re preaching?
Where’s the support for an Individual Right to Fetal Ejection?
Pro-Life is NOT focused on not “killing” anything …
They’re focused on FORCED reproduction.
With a load of BS propaganda insisting the two are the same thing when they just aren't. Relocation =/= Murder.
It’s ridiculous. The state has to tolerate the lying about it’s law but is also not allowed to make factual statements about its law or that’s lobbying.
That’s so ridiculous.
Except it's not lying. It's a reasonable reading of the law, given the Florida government's rabid and irrational anti-abortion character. No doctor in their right mind would trust DeSantis and his mob to leave them alone if they decided it was medically necessary to perform an abortion. DeSantis would come after them and we all know it.
It is lying. Activist doctors are holding healthcare hostage because they disagree with a law and then they lie about it.
It’s not that hard. If the mother’s life is at risk, you treat her. If termination of pregnancy results, ok.
But abortion is actively seeking out the death of another - not the ancillary loss in pursuit of saving another life.
It isn’t that complicated except with pro-abortionists twisting things for an agenda. Its offensive to those who know better.
The law doesn't specifically exempt cancer patients.
The only LIE is by those pretending it does.
"It’s not that hard. If the mother’s life is at risk, you treat her. If termination of pregnancy results, ok."
Termination isn't a result. An abortion has to be performed first, but that pregnancy isn't causing the risk to the mother's life.
That's why laws like this are a terrible idea (besides the anti-liberty character of all pre-viability abortion bans). There are always unanticipated things cropping up in medicine and, if the doctor fears the government (logical in Florida), they won't make a decision based purely on the medical situation.
Why don't we argue about Individual Rights?
Where law is suppose to be based?
Oh yeah; that might require a demonstrate-able *inherent* right to life that the Pro-Life mob knows doesn't exist pre-viable. They think their beliefs can just make that exist by FORCED reproduction.
Laws often draw arbitrary lines in the sand. Why is the speed limit 55mph? Not 57 or 60? Or if you really wanted to save lives, 35mph?
Isn't this essentially the argument for state's rights when it comes to abortion law. Each state draws their own line in the sand....
Why allow abortion for rape? Why allow abortion for incest? Is it really the fetus's fault?
What's the speed limit on one's own personal property?
Individual Rights aren't up for "[WE] mobs" gets to decide.
Exactly, and BABIES HAVE RIGHTS TOO.
This is the bottom line, which pro-abortionists twist themselves into pretzels to avoid. Babies in the womb have human rights.
That indeed is where the argument sits.
And it's actually Pro-Life that twists themselves into pretzels avoiding (nice self-projection there).
So answer this: Do people have an *inherent* human right to not be forcibly detained inside someone else's body? Do I have the right to FORCE you to keep your pecker in some Woman against her will?
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom.
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
"Babies in the womb have human rights."
No, they don't. Nor should they. Until they reach viability, they are nothing but potential, future humans. They haven't achieved the minimum necessary for survival, so they aren't a baby or a person or a child or a human being yet. Claiming otherwise is trying to speak a fairy tale into existence through repetition.
Less than 10% of Americans believe a fertilized egg is a person because it's an insane thing to believe. Saying it over and over again doesn't change that.
You don’t “own up to it” when you’re mistaken. You cut and run.
You advocate the murderous definition of viability based on a baby’s age designed to support abortion and deny the original definition of viability which demonstrates that a baby is viable as long as it can continue living if uninterrupted by murder.
Like the last time we discussed abortion.
“We agree that the fetus is alive. That’s something.
You simply deny that a fetus is a person, based on its age.
Firstly there is no rational correlation between age and the definition of a person or the right to life.
Secondly since there is no mention of age discrimination against the right to life in the constitution, your position is unconstitutional.
Let me walk you through the correctly applied science and logic, so you don’t become lost.
This easy to follow string of definitions clearly demonstrate that the authority that gives meaning to all language, dictionaries, recognizes the unborn as persons,
Unborn unique DNA = individual = human being = person = child = baby
Definition of DNA fingerprinting
the use of a DNA probe for the identification of an individual
Definition of individual
A person
Definition of human being
“any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.”
Definition of person
“a human being, whether an adult or child:
Definition of baby
A human fetus
Definition of child
A human fetus
Dictionary.com
Now the choice is once again yours.
Recognize the truth that a fetus is a living human person, being sane, or don’t and be an insane advocate of murder.”
You cut and ran.
https://reason.com/2024/09/22/im-pro-life-but/?comments=true#comments
"Why stop at birth? How about a constitutional amendment to limit government interference with infanticide?"
Because no one supports killing babies. Your bias prevents you from seeing the obvious.
Virtually every pro-choice advocate supports only protecting pre-vuable abortions. You're fighting a strawman.
Gov. Northam disagrees.
How many examples do you want?
Dobbs only changed the Pre-Viable arena.
Roe v Wade already left Post-Viable to the States.
So unless you’re griping at a specific State UR just griping at the air or else desiring a National Ban on Abortion. Another UN-Constitutional POWER claim worse than Universal Healthcare.
Coarse that is exactly what Pro-Life is really lobbying for though isn't it. Universal Healthcare for the unborn; The fetuses right-to female-bodies as life-support machines. Otherwise; they'd support Fetal Ejection.
"Gov. Northam disagrees."
And he speaks for himself. No one doesn't mean zero, since there are always a few idiots who will believe almost anything. But you know that. I'll bet you have some "Kermit Gosnell" comments all ready to go, you dishonest paleocon.
'TV station are not required to fact-check political ads before running them, nor to take down ads simply because they contain matters of disputed fact or statements that officials say are untrue.'
How about what TV stations broadcast as "news"?
As long as it isn't libelous they can also broadcast whatever lies they want.
And nothing in the last four years would serve as evidence that the definition of libelous would be tormented and abused until it made you retarded?
I've watched Fox news - trust me they don't have to fact check.
x1000 for CNN, MSNBC, etc, etc, etc.
As-if Reason didn't just run an article about that BS.
PMSNBC/The View......four women, low IQ and loud mouths.
Interesting this is going on at the same time California just passed AB2839.
AB 2839, applies around election time to any person or group who distributes "materially deceptive content" about candidates, elected officials, and other election material. It also requires people to put disclaimers on satirical posts, which defeats the point of satire. Who decides what is "materially deceptive?" Those in power, of course.
https://notthebee.com/takes/adf-california
We will just quietly ignore that.
Seems to be what Musk required on Xitter.
The fact that California has passed an equally noxious law doesn't make Florida's behavior any less indefensible.
Nor does it make Californian's pass the appalling-news worthy test.
And anyone wonders why it's called leftard-media.
Rarely have I seen a judge use such blunt language in chastising a public official for gross violation of the Constitution. I hope it is a trend! Nevertheless, I predict that being called an idiot in public will not put even a small dent in the thick skulls of Wilson or Ladapo. I wonder how Lapado ever graduated from med school in that condition? Maybe it’s a more recent development?
LOL.. "ever graduated from med school" -- Commie-Indoctrination is precisely where most of it comes from. Always preaching [WE] betterment over the Individual. Which is the very definition of fascism.
Nevertheless, I think it's deliciously ironic that Lapado has been "warned" by the CDC for spreading dangerous misinformation concerning the COVID-19 epidemic and now is "warning" media outlets for spreading dangerous misinformation about abortion laws.
It's less at the discretion of doctors and more a guessing game for doctors how a prosecutor and/or jury might see it.
All pregnant wife's and their doctors must get permission from the Gov-Gun Gods. /s
Precisely the result of destroying "The right of the people to be secure in their persons" (4A) because Alito has "moral standards".
Your free speech and baby murder champion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_E._Walker#Notable_rulings
If you think he's acting out of some devotion to the free speech, rule of law, or even just fair play, you'd be wrong.
Appointed by Obama.
Only the anti-riot one was about free speech and that law, if I recall correctly, was about restricting speech. I don't believe his ruling was overturned, so what's your point?
Or did you just want to list a bunch of things that pissed you off and pretend they involved the First Amendment?
So your only concern is whether you agree or not. You were fine with censoring everything COVID related, general conservatives on social media and the Hunter Biden laptop all under government threat but how dare baby murderers get censored.
The same way 'democracy' murderers got censored.
Fairy-tale excuses to kill the 1st Amendment.
So we're all agreed that the court was right and Florida was wrong, it's just that some posters would rather it weren't so, and some posters are aggrieved about other instances, etc etc
The 'we will always support government abuses' wing of alt-right 'libertarians' is often a bit confused.
And angry. So, so angry.
How much Gov-Gun THEFT did [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] think they could get away with before the "right-wing" expecting Liberty and Justice for all would get angry?
"The state has been demanding that TV stations remove political ads in support of a reproductive freedom amendment on the ballot this year."
You misspelled "abortion."
Freedom is freedom. The fact that you don't want others to be free is a failing in you, no one else.
"The doctors knew that if I did not end my pregnancy, I would lose my baby, I would lose my life, and my daughter would lose her mom," she says.
A couple of points on this pull quote:
1. So the doctors established that you were eligible for an abortion under current Florida law.
2. "The doctors knew that if I did not end my pregnancy, I would lose my baby". Circular logic. So you're going to lose the baby if you don't have an abortion and thus you must have an abortion.
Final point on the article generally:
The "rub" is that the ad clearly misrepresents current Florida law. I suppose it is their 1st amendment right to lie for their cause, but is unethical. But politics ain't beanbag i guess.
The ad represents the 'wording' of the Florida law, but it doesn't represent possible results of the Florida law. Similar laws have women waiting in parking lots until their sepsis (infection) is bad enough that they can be considered a 'medical emergency' in order to have a D&C (abortion) to get rid of a non-viable pregnancy. The doctors are afraid to lose their licenses. The intended consequences of the Florida law is to increase risk of injury, infertility and death to pregnant women in order to decrease the number of abortions.
"Similar laws have women waiting in parking lots until their sepsis (infection) is bad enough that they can be considered a ‘medical emergency’ in order to have a D&C (abortion) to get rid of a non-viable pregnancy. The doctors are afraid to lose their licenses."
This is the common criticism of similar abortion restrictions and attempts to confuse the definitions of elective abortion, missed abortion, spontaneous abortion, miscarriage, D&C, etc. And its disingenuous. Failure of doctors to act appropriately with the information that they have (with a claimed fear of prosecution or threat to medical licensure) is a failure of the doctor, not of the law. If a patient has chorio, the appropriate treatment is to initiate delivery and start antibiotics - they wouldn't be allowed to leave the ER or hospital (unless AMA) let alone be "sent out to the parking lot".
"The intended consequences of the Florida law is to increase risk of injury, infertility and death to pregnant women in order to decrease the number of abortions."
A very cynical take on intentions.
"Failure of doctors to act appropriately with the information that they have (with a claimed fear of prosecution or threat to medical licensure) is a failure of the doctor, not of the law."
Absolutely not. When the medical opinion of a doctor needs to be be based on the fear of retribution by a right-wing government who is itching to score political points at the first opportunity, it is the fault of the law and the government. No doctor in their right mind would trust DeSantis to leave medical decisions in the realm of medical doctors. It would be asking to lose their license, if not worse.
"When the medical opinion of a doctor needs to be be based on the fear of retribution by a right-wing government who is itching to score political points at the first opportunity, it is the fault of the law and the government."
what? huh? world salad?
"No doctor in their right mind would trust DeSantis to leave medical decisions in the realm of medical doctors."
I've been told that there are currently doctors in the state of Florida practicing medicine on a daily basis. And get this, apparently more are moving in despite your irrational histrionics.
"world salad?"
Sorry, I didn't realize you lacked adult comprehension skills.
"I’ve been told that there are currently doctors in the state of Florida practicing medicine on a daily basis. And get this, apparently more are moving in despite your irrational histrionics."
The topic is abortions and whether a state government with draconian abortion laws would persecute doctors for a medical decision that required abortion. No one claimed that doctors were fleeing the state. That's your strawman.
However, doctors are justifiably fearful of what DeSantis might do to them if they determine an abortion is necessary,then perform one.
The topic is abortions and whether a state government with draconian abortion laws would persecute doctors for a medical decision that required abortion. No one claimed that doctors were fleeing the state. That’s your strawman.
you relaize that anti-abortion laws existed since the Founding.
We should, therefore, have plenty of precedent regarding anti-abortion laws.
Make the pro-abortionists play by their own book of rules.
They censored what they claimed was medical misinformation, invoking government authority to do so. Let them taste their own medicine.
It’s interesting that the precedent the judge cited was a case about Americans having the right to lie about receiving military medals. In citing that horrid precedent, the judge inadvertently revealed how flimsy is this right to lie which pro-abortionists are claiming.
You can always tell the validity and ethicality of your social position on a subject by how much you have to lie straight to the face of a terminal patient about it. Even ENB here buries it mid-article in a parenthetical.
Also telling is the fact that the youtube page for this particular commercial doesn't allow comments. Wouldn't want to get ratioed, would they.
The red flag is that the state proclaimed the authority to censor free speech. If they could do so with this situation, then one could expect the state to interpret it , and they will, as authority to clamp down on free speech.
limiting the government's right to interfere in reproductive decisions.
That's a pretty convoluted way to say "limiting the government's obligation to keep people from murdering unborn babies."
I'm still on the side of free speech here, but man it's really dangerous to tell people that they can't get treatment in Florida for a potentially life threatening problem when in fact they can and very much should.
Maybe the solution is to flood the airwaves with the truth. I realize that would be expensive and admittedly there's probably a decent sized section of the Republican base that would prefer people not actually know that truth. But I guess counter advertising is the best option. Seems like censorship just brings on the "Streisand Effect" if nothing else.
I do wish the people who write about this issue would highlight that the ad's claims are extremely questionable, even if they have the right to make those claims. This one barely skims over that.
All good points. Liked and subscribed.
Pretty much this. Florida shouldn't censor, but they need to come up with a legal means of countering blatant untruths; it shouldn't matter what the policy is.
Following every one of these ads making provable untrue statements with another ad correcting the record and pointing out the lie seems like a legal way to counter this.
Then why isn't the prohibition of cigarette ads on television, and the mandatory warnings a violation of the First Amendment?
Good question. Was this ever taken to court? That would make an interesting read in comparison to this case.
The right to *life* versus the right to *lie*.
They are not lying. She would not qualify for an abortion now. And don’t give the BS “But the law says for the life of the mother” because we all know that the state interprets that very narrowly.
Or we could do the right thing and not censor anyone's political speech.
Losers do the right thing. Winners adopt the tactics of the enemy.
That's why I say "It's ok because Democrats did it first." Because that's what many people truly believe.
That’s not an option. You can keep people out of church from 2020-2022 but insisting that political ads about abortion represent the law accurately is beyond the pale?
You’re such a “libertarian” that you’re allowing others to define the terms of your morals for you out of fear of trampling on their lack of them.
Wrong place
From your lips to God’s ears.
I'm trying to respond to Zeb, but it put it here twice. Anyone else having this problem?
Is there a state appellate court ruling interpreting "life of the mother" very narrowly?
because we all know that the state interprets that very narrowly
No. Not really. But what's your interpretation? The social life of the mother?
[citation needed]
That didn't even make sense, you shitty little troll.
What the fuck are you talking about? They are both beyond the pale. I'm not in a position to allow or prevent anyone from doing anything. I will however defend free speech, free assembly and the right to peacefully go about one's business for everyone at all times.
They are both beyond the pale.
Expecting tax-exempt political action groups to present the law fairly is beyond the pale?
Why do you pretend like you don't know how this works? What moral or legal high ground do you presume to be preaching from?
There is no 1A right to not have your PAC ads blocked as public nuisance by a State Agency. There is no right to abortion any more than there is a right to murder or a college degree. There actually is a nominally-uninfringed right to bear arms. There actually is a right to peaceably assemble. If those can be abridged... copiously... what makes this exceptional beyond the fact that it's deceptive explicitly to the point of harm and in favor of killing fetuses?
In the land; Where Pro-Life actually makes a law about ‘killing’ anything instead of about FORCED reproduction. I don’t see a Fetal Ejection exemption written in their so-called laws about 'killing'.
No, but all liberal media agree it will happen – – – – – – – – –
(yet another example of "the wandering response" randomizer at Reason. Typed as a response to Michael Ejercito somewhere above)
Nobody is forcing women to have sex yoy gibbering moron, you’re just upset that actions have consequences and living with those consequences s unbearable to eloi like you.