No, 13,000 Migrant Murderers Are Not Running Loose

That just isn't happening in the United States, no matter what Donald Trump keeps claiming.

Over the past week, former President Donald Trump has been making a bold claim: "Over 13,000, the exact number's 13,099, convicted illegal alien murderers are now on the loose," he said during a campaign rally on October 1. A few days before that, Trump wrote on Truth Social that "13,000 convicted murderers entered our Country during [Kamala Harris'] three and a half year period as Border Czar."

That number comes from a letter that Rep. Tony Gonzales (R–Texas) shared on X last week. The letter, which is from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), describes the noncitizens on the agency's docket who have been convicted of or charged with crimes. There are currently 13,099 "non-detained" noncitizens on the docket who have been convicted of homicide, according to ICE.

Some, including Trump, have taken "non-detained" to mean "roaming free." But this is false.

"When ICE uses the term 'non-detained,' they mean not currently detained by ICE," noted Alex Nowrasteh, vice president for economic and social policy studies at the Cato Institute, this week. "In other words, the migrant murderers included in the letter are overwhelmingly in prison serving their sentences." After that, Nowrasteh continues, "the government transfers them onto ICE's docket for removal from the United States."

There is a "small number of non-detained migrants" who have been convicted of homicide but can't be sent back to their home countries after serving their time, mostly because the U.S. doesn't have repatriation agreements with those countries, Nowrasteh says. A 2001 Supreme Court decision bars ICE from indefinitely keeping someone in immigration detention, but "non-detained" people are often still subject to ICE check-ins or electronic monitoring.

Trump is also wrong to claim that these individuals all came to the U.S. under the Biden administration. The list "includes individuals who entered the country over the past 40 years or more," explained the Department of Homeland Security in a Saturday statement, "the vast majority of whose custody determination was made long before this Administration."

The number of convicted criminals on ICE's nondetained docket hasn't grown significantly under President Joe Biden, reported The Washington Post's Glenn Kessler. In August 2016, five months before Trump took office, there were 368,574 on the docket; in June 2021, five months into Biden's presidency, there were 405,786; and in December 2022, nearly two years into Biden's presidency, there were 407,983.

As he campaigns ahead of the presidential election next month, Trump has routinely said outrageous, misleading, and false things about immigrants and crime. He often talks about a "migrant crime" wave and claims that it "is taking over America." Much like his migrant murderers claim, the true picture looks very different. Crime decreased in the cities that received the most migrants through Texas' Operation Lone Star busing activities, per NBC News. "The most recent significant crime spike in recent years occurred in 2020," Cato Institute Associate Director of Immigration Studies David J. Bier told Reason in March, "when illegal immigration was historically low until the end of the year."

Trump paints a terrifying picture of migrants and migration, but the reality is far more nuanced and far less dangerous than he would suggest.

Comments

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Now do the ones we DONT know about. Like Tren de Aragua.
I’m sure they are all rambunctiousness and misdemeanorin

[Chumby]

That was the only one!

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

No fair! Gotaways don’t count! No matter how many people they rape and murder.

[EdG]

Don't let facts disabuse you of your stupidity.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

What facts?

[P50flightm40]

How can you know or not know what’s running around, when left wing media covers it up, when left wing municipalities refuse to collect the data, and when leftists in our federal and state governments don’t punish anyone for not collecting the data?

As Derek Hunter points out at least once a week, “Control the unit of measurement, control the narrative.”

[JasonT20]

Just think for a moment about what you just said.

You express uncertainty in how many illegal immigrant murderers there are in the country because you are certain that the true numbers are being hidden from you.

You are so close to understanding how to be skeptical, and yet so far.

[P50flightm40]

It’s not that I’m uncertain about the numbers, it’s that it cannot be proven that there are millions of criminal illegal aliens in America.

I’m quite certain, because I can see their impact. (Just as I’m certain that the sun has mass, because I can see the impact of its mass, even without the personal ability to measure it).

But to actually persuade people within the commentariat, it requires numbers that the left has deliberately chosen to not collect.

For instance, why are the statistics of illegal alien crime increasing only in “red” America? Because the “blue” cities and states don’t count or report immigration status in crime analysis.

Skepticism is not just questioning the facts and narratives, but also recognizing that when numbers don’t match what is evident, something is wrong with the numbers.

[JasonT20]

Skepticism is not just questioning the facts and narratives, but also recognizing that when numbers don’t match what is evident, something is wrong with the numbers.

There's skepticism that is defined by evidence-based reasoning, and then there's skepticism due to just not buying something because it doesn't feel right to you. The former of those is the kind of skepticism that is justifiable to people that don't share your feelings. The latter is only going to convince people that are already likely to agree with you. That latter is the kind of skepticism that politicians like to see in voters. They don't have to do the hard work of convincing those voters with objective evidence. They can just appeal to their emotions, prejudices, and general distrust of things they already don't like.

When you say that something is "evident" but the "numbers don't match," what that means is that you are looking at anecdotes, personal experience, or what gets shown to you in the media that you consume. Objective evidence is going to involve numbers collected somehow. If you don't trust one source, then you need to find another one that you do that will provide you with measurements that you can verify.

I’m quite certain, because I can see their impact. (Just as I’m certain that the sun has mass, because I can see the impact of its mass, even without the personal ability to measure it).

What is the impact of the Sun's mass that you can personally observe without the ability to measure it yourself? Remember that it wasn't evident to humans that the Sun had more mass than the Earth for most of human history. (To the extent that they even might have thought of mass the same way that it is defined now.) The force of gravity from the Earth is a lot more evident to all of us than the force of gravity that the Sun exerts on us due to its mass. I taught physics for over 20 years, and it is not obvious to me that I could demonstrate that the Sun has mass to the average person's satisfaction. I'm sure I could offer quick explanations that would line up with what they remember from school, but that would only satisfy them if they weren't being skeptical.

Ultimately, it is ourselves and our own biases that we have to be most skeptical towards. You, for instance, are already heavily primed and ready to be skeptical of anything I might claim about immigration or anyone else well to your left might claim. I am not going to be able to fool you. But if you don't ever check your own reasoning or the facts that you think are true, then you might fool yourself and never know it. That is something everyone needs to do for themselves.

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

[rbike]

JasonT20 is in favor of shooting illegal invaders in the neck. Always remember this viewpoint from him. He celebrated doing this.

[P50flightm40]

The sun has mass. It should be obvious through any of these thought exercises:

The Earth's orbit around the Sun is maintained by gravitational force, indicating the Sun has mass;

The gravitational pull of the Sun keeps planets in their orbits, demonstrating its mass;

Kepler's Third Law relates the orbital period of a planet to its distance from the Sun, implying significant solar mass;

The energy radiated by the Sun from nuclear fusion requires a massive amount of matter.

By the same logic, one can observe the effects of, and infer the existence of, massive numbers of illegal aliens, even though the left keeps us from getting accurate measurements.

And if RBIKE below is right, I’m not opposed to the idea.

I’m from the school of thought that the kindest way of preventing suffering is through the use of unmitigated force. By creating a terrible deterrent, one can avoid lengthy wars, human conflict, smuggling, and other rights abuses.

Ironically.

[JasonT20]

None of the things you listed are evident from your own personal observation. They require a great deal of data, careful mathematical analysis, and prior discoveries and theories supported with other observations and experiments.

The Earth’s orbit around the Sun is maintained by gravitational force, indicating the Sun has mass;

That the Earth orbits the Sun, not the other way around, presupposes that you understand that the Sun is the more massive object. It also presupposes, even before you reach that conclusion, that gravity is a force that depends on the masses of objects.

The gravitational pull of the Sun keeps planets in their orbits, demonstrating its mass...

This has the same issue. You need to know a lot about those objects in order to draw that conclusion.

Kepler’s Third Law relates the orbital period of a planet to its distance from the Sun, implying significant solar mass...

Kepler stated his three laws of planetary motion based on many years of careful and precise observations from Tycho Brahe and combined that with mathematical analysis. It was purely a matter of fitting the observed motion to the mathematics, taking the heliocentric view of the Solar System as a premise. Nothing in Kepler's Third Law requires knowing anything about the masses of the Sun or the planets.

The energy radiated by the Sun from nuclear fusion requires a massive amount of matter.

This requires an understanding of nuclear physics, and the observations of the radiation and particles coming from the Sun that support the claim that the Sun's energy output comes from nuclear fusion.

You are clearly correct in everything you said that those observations depend on the Sun having mass. Where you are wrong is that any of those is sufficient to demonstrate that the Sun has mass. Those observations, even taken all together, still require a very large amount of other observations, experiments, and analysis in order to conclusively demonstrate that the Sun has mass and that it is much larger than the mass of the Earth, even without going further and calculating what that mass is.

By the same logic, one can observe the effects of, and infer the existence of, massive numbers of illegal aliens...

The claims that people are making in this election cycle and that Trump has been making for years isn't that there are immigrants in the country illegally. It isn't that there are large numbers of them. The claim is that the Biden-Harris administration has been letting massive numbers of them enter the country illegally. That it is 'out of control', that it is 'destroying' our country, and whatever other things he says aimed at frightening people into voting for him again. I generally do not listen to Trump for any longer than I can help, so I only know what he says that ends up in the news in print form. But I also see, hear, and read things from Trump supporters and others whipping up anti-immigrant sentiment that Democrats are letting all of these illegals into the country in order to get more voters, to create chaos that only the government can fix, or even to 'replace' natural-born Americans (the "great replacement theory" that Tucker Carlson promoted before he got fired from Fox News).

These kinds of fantastical conspiracy theories get called that because they are not claims that are supported by verifiable facts. They often can't be verified with facts, because of the nature of the claims (such as the motivations of politicians).

...even though the left keeps us from getting accurate measurements.

And this right here is the clear and most useful sign that someone is engaging in conspiracy thinking. You don't have objective facts that you can articulate or cite that we could check for ourselves, in order to support your claims. And the reason you don't have objective facts is because "the left" is keeping you from getting those facts. This is the prime hallmark of a conspiracy theory. Any weaknesses in the factual support for the conspiracy theory are simply more proof of the conspiracy! "They" don't want you to know the truth, so that is why you need to just believe.

[P50flightm40]

I respect that you have gone to lengths to reply thoughtfully, but the weekend is over and I won’t be able to continue.

You did make excellent points on the sun, but I have to disagree that the last part is a conspiracy theory.

It was nice to spar with you.

[Ben of Houston]

Taking a cue from the Volokh side.
In court, one side destroys evidence, the standard instruction to the jury is to assume that the evidence went against the person who destroyed it.

When certain political groups deliberately prevent collection and reporting of data, I have to assume that the data went against their beliefs.

[JasonT20]

When certain political groups deliberately prevent collection and reporting of data, I have to assume that the data went against their beliefs.

What data is being prevented from being collected and reported? What evidence do you have of that?

[Chumby]

Fiona Harrington is wrong to not let these peaceful migrants live with her.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

She should be evicted from her home, but still required to pay the rent/mortgage. Then the home can be stuffed with illegals. Fiona will still be legally responsible for utilities, damage, and upkeep.

Fiona should enthusiastically applaud this action, as Seth is is what she is advocating.

[Don't look at me!]

No, 13,000 Migrant Murderers Are Not Running Loose

Really? Because there are over 20,000 murders a year.

[mad.casual]

Normie: So the 13,000 number isn’t really wrong?
Fiona: No.
Normie: And they’re in prison so it’s not a ‘13,000 cases where an immigrant might be a suspect’ situation?
Fiona: No.
Normie: And despite Reason’s recent ‘Crime is down’ narrative, which the FBI has since revised, a documented sub-60% murder clearance rate has been the norm for years, right?
Fiona: Yes.
Normie: So the number could actually be well more than 13,000 and 13,000 is actually a pretty hard lower limit.
Fiona: Yeah, but they’re not ‘running loose’.
Normie: You probably think the issue with “Haitians eating cats” is specifically about Haitians and cats don’t you?
Fiona: You bigot!

[DesigNate]

That’s exactly how I felt reading her article.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Oh here we go. The "fake but accurate" strategy once again.

Who cares if the 13,000 migrants are murderers convicted yesterday or convicted 40 years ago, who cares about small details like truth, the important thing is to blame Biden for it and to stoke fear of the illegal murderer next door.

[Social Justice is neither]

You really are stupid aren't you. Would it make more sense to you if the murderous illegals were described as bears confined in trunks but randomly popping out around town killing people representing all the ones we don't know about or haven't convicted?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

We all understand now. Narrative matters more than truth.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Yes, your commentary proves that’s what you believe in. Fun fact, are you aware that when your fellow travelers in the democrat party get their way and control everything, the flow of 55 gallon drums of Ben & Jerry’s will come to a stop? Because it will. You will not have a seat at the table and will in fact subsist off of whatever scraps your Marxist masters deem appropriate for you.

[XM]

"Narrative matters more than truth."

I mean, you should know, Mr. "The NY case was probably crooked but Trump was a bad guy so it's ok to be happy with the result"

Are there 13,000 migrants serving prison sentence for murder in Japan, Chemjeff? You think we did proper background checks on those Haitians in Ohio?

You're not seeing the forest for the trees.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Are you really trying to justify the 'fake but accurate' strategy?

[Minadin]

Like you do just below?

We always know what the Left is guilty of by the accusations they make toward their political enemies.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So you recognize that it's the same strategy at work. Good for you! I was hoping I would get through to someone.

So if it was wrong to try to tie Trump to Nazis for his 'fine people' comment by arguing 'well, but look at the context...' then this strategy is wrong here for the same reason.

Trump didn't directly defend Nazis with his 'fine people' statement.
Biden didn't let 13,000 illegal immigrant murderers into the country.

Both are false statements and both should be called out as false. Would you agree?

[Minadin]

So you just accuse people of the thing you acknowledge and admit to doing?

[Minadin]

I mean, fucking SNOPES refutes your bullshit line. It's not known to be a bastion of alt-right MAGA-hat wearing rhetoric.

Fucking SNOPES.

They will do anything they can to spin their fact checks, and even they were like, 'whoah, we can't support this objectively false narrative'.

Fucking SNOPES.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Let me put it to you another way, perhaps one that you might understand.

Trump: "Fine people on both sides."
Lots of people: "OMG he's defending Nazis!"
Trump defenders: "Look, if you inspect the transcript, take his words in context, do an analysis of his speech, he clearly wasn't defending Nazis! C'mon!"
Lots of people: You're not seeing the forest for the trees...

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Another false, Pedo Jeffy analogy. Those things aren’t remotely similar. Stop with your lies.

[Mother's Lament]

“Let me put it to you another way”

And there it is. The Chemjeff Maneuver, redefine the other guy’s statement until it says what he wants.

[Minadin]

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-very-fine-people/

[DesigNate]

Since the statement wasn’t demonstrably fake as it seems everyone agrees at least 13000 murderers were let in to the country and are only quibbling about where they are (some unknown number NOT being in custody right now).

And considering something like 5 or 6 million peoplehave crossed the border over the last three years, and considering your stance that we should let murderersand child predators claim asylum, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to figure that at any given time at least 13000 could be roaming about free.

So I don’t think you get to talk about people pushing narratives, Mr. Bears-in-Trunks.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Sure, if you make a whole bunch of assumptions without backing any of them up with hard facts, you can convince yourself that anything is true. Congratulations!

[Minadin]

I'm going to make a whole bunch of assumptions that you're a leftist who doesn't pay attention to any facts at all, but wants to use words that sound authoritative, because in your head it makes your failed argument sound prettier.

What did Nate get wrong, exactly?

[Nelson]

"it seems everyone agrees at least 13000 murderers were let in to the country"

If I understand it correctly, these are illegal immigrants who have entered over the past 40 years. So they weren't "let in", and they entered the country illegally.

They came under under Reagan (4 years), Bush 1 (4 years), Clinton (8 years), Bush 2 (8 years), Obama (8 years), Trump (4 years), and Biden (4 years). So 20 years under Republican Presidents and 20 years under Democratic Presidents. Literally a 50/50 split.

"are only quibbling about where they are"

And by "quibbling", you mean Trump saying they are running around loose, which is 100% untrue? That's not called "quibbling".

"considering your stance that we should let murderersand child predators claim asylum"

That's no one's stance. Find me anyone on any side of the immigration issue that supports that. Ilya Somin is about as open-borders as it gets and he would never support such a thing.

It's almost like you are trying to falsely demonize people. But you would never do such a thing, right?

The worst part is that illegal immigration is a shitshow and needs to get back under control. There was a good bill that would have helped move in that direction, but it wasn't politically convenient for Trump so it was killed at his direction.

This demonization and politicization of the issue makes it less likely, not more, that it will improve.

Ideas like locating asylum courts outside the US and not allowing illegal immigrants to be in the country while they await their hearing both make sense. But that doesn't feed the irrational beasts like "DEPORT THEM ALL!!! (Yes, I know that's impossible, but shhhh)" or "people aren't illegal/you're a racist" does.

This is a systemic problem that requires a systemic solution, but focusing on the minutiae of policy doesn't rile up the base because process is So. Fucking. Boring.

"it’s not a stretch of the imagination to figure that at any given time at least 13000 could be roaming about free."

Yes, it is. It's completely nonsensical to believe such a thing. And there's no data that can support the idea that the equivelent of 100% of the total number of murderers from the last 40 years are somehow secretly running around free in America. It's insane.

"So I don’t think you get to talk about people pushing narratives, Mr. Bears-in-Trunks."

You're living in a glass house there, Nate. Jeff is a Democrat shill, but you're just his mirror image.

The bears in trunks thing was complete idiocy, but it's not like it's any more bonkers than "Trump won the 2020 election", is it?

[Minadin]

"If I understand it correctly"

You don't.

[NealAppeal]

Or if they felt bad about it afterwards...that should be taken into consideration, as well.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I know I am hitting the target when the only responses I get are mockery and insults. It means you don't have anything substantive to go with.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You didn’t say anything substantive to begin with, dummy. Your strategy is to pick apart anything that goes against The Narrative. Then run away when you get the eventual beatdown. Of course there’s a lot of sophistry, shifting of the goal posts, and then central outright lies. Followed by you losing your shit and running away,

Them you come back the next day and pretend all the evidence presents to you never happened. You’ve been doing this here for years. And I’ve had to say this exact same thing to you dozens, possibly over a hundred, time now.

You’re hated here for all of that, you are a lying, conniving propagandist, neo Marxist pedophilic shitweasel. You’re simultaneously ignorant and dishonest, with a generous helping of stupidity thrown in for good measure.

I will say one thing in your favor. Your continued existence does make an argument for some limited kind of abortion.

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

You’re not even looking for the target, you fucking idiot. You look right past it and pretend it isn’t there.

How many is too many Jeff? That’s a lot of murderers. But I guess ya gotta break a few thousand eggs to get cheap lettuce and landscaping.

[rbike]

I don't want to pay to imprison these people. Maybe life in prison in Venezuela is worse than life in prison in the US. I don't care. I don't want to pay for it. This is a fair and reasonable attitude to be against illegal immigration.

[damikesc]

Can you explain why we allow convicted murderers in AT ALL? Are there ANY standards you will not oppose, since murder apparently does not fall under your disqualification criteria.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I'm not in favor of knowingly allowing murderers to immigrate into the country.

But, you talk as if it is possible for the government to control all migration in this way. As if, the presence of an illegal immigrant murderer in the country is proof that the government must have purposefully allowed it, rather than what it most likely is, a failure of government to successfully stop it despite their efforts.

And do you know what would increase the chances that the government can successfully stop murderers from sneaking across the border? Don't divert their attention away from this important task by instead demanding that they round up all of the peaceful migrants crossing the border who pose no threat to anyone and who just want to come here to find work and a small measure of greater liberty. Make it easier for peaceful migrants to come and go across the border, and the border patrol will then have an easier time catching the 'bad hombres'. Sound good to you?

[damikesc]

"But, you talk as if it is possible for the government to control all migration in this way. As if, the presence of an illegal immigrant murderer in the country is proof that the government must have purposefully allowed it, rather than what it most likely is, a failure of government to successfully stop it despite their efforts."

In THIS case, with the current admin, it was them allowing them in. As they allowed almost all of them. There was no attempt to limit it. If the government is putting forth a sincere effort, then yes, a few can fall through the cracks.

That is not what is happening here. Providing "legal status" thru a fucking app is insanity and is not in line with an honest effort of any sort.

"And do you know what would increase the chances that the government can successfully stop murderers from sneaking across the border? Don’t divert their attention away from this important task by instead demanding that they round up all of the peaceful migrants crossing the border who pose no threat to anyone and who just want to come here to find work and a small measure of greater liberty. Make it easier for peaceful migrants to come and go across the border, and the border patrol will then have an easier time catching the ‘bad hombres’. Sound good to you?"

Do you think I'll oppose stopping ALL migrants? Nope. Close it up for a decade or so until we get a handle on this.

We owe nobody anything. We've gone above and beyond. We're broker than all royal hell.

[Nelson]

"Can you explain why we allow convicted murderers in AT ALL?"

I believe these are illegal immigrants, so they haven't been allowed in. They entered illegally.

Personally, I lean heavily towards immigration reforms that include asylum courts being located outside the US and illegal immigrants being deported quickly. But that wouldn't impact illegal immigration in the least.

I imagine we would differ on DACA kids and expanded green cards (especially for seasonal migrant labor, particularly manual agricultural labor), but I see both as stable elements of illegal immigrants that would be easily converted to productive naturalized citizens.

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

13000 people foreign to this country are locked up in our prisons for murder.

And this is a “no big deal” for Jeff.

Wow. No wonder you don’t wanna give us a number. You suck.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

That's because Jeff is a worthless cunt, whose highest purpose would be to serve as fertilizer.

[P50flightm40]

Well said, Mad. As usual.

[Freethinksman]

It goes beyond lazy to outright dumb. Just find two common nouns and suddenly the two sentences are inextricably linked?

There is nothing to suggest those two things share any relationship whatsoever. My kid's high school has a football team. A football team will win the Super Bowl this year. Therefore my kid's high school football team will be Superbowl champions this year. Jesus, this is a country of uncritical thinkers.

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

Right. None of those illegals murdered you. And you didn’t win the Super Bowl.

So what’s the big fuckin deal?

[mad.casual]

“In other words, the migrant murderers included in the letter are overwhelmingly in prison serving their sentences.”

Oh, OK. So they’re just shanking native convicts to death on the taxpayer’s dime then. As long as nobody’s being executed by the state… carry on.

[Unable2Reason]

I don't understand how this is much better. Now we have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to jail these people that shouldn't even be here?

And on top of that, if they're from a country that won't take them back then they're released onto the streets in the US when they've served their time and they're not even citizens?

[damikesc]

I bet they have the best food trucks in prison.

I wonder if this falls under the "Economic benefits" of illegal immigration.

[Nelson]

The economic benefits are derived from legal, not illegal, immigration. Legal immigration is a net positive for America. Illegal immigration is not.

[holmegm]

And so the magic is that we just *call* it all "legal"!

Now it's a 100% benefit!

[Social Justice is neither]

And the problem is that the number is not ZERO. The fact that you demand we import 100s of thousands more among the unlimited illegal invasion you support is beside the point.

[Longtobefree]

Well, of course not. They are illegals, not migrants.

[Zeb]

Those are not mutually exclusive categories.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

No no no. You MUST use the most demeaning and dehumanizing terms possible to describe these illegal invader filth monsters.

[Social Justice is neither]

Hold on there, he didn't call them Jeff.

[Nelson]

OK, that was funny.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

We didn’t say there democrats. Just illegals, you fatfuck child rape enthusiast shitweasel.

[damikesc]

"No no no. You MUST use the most demeaning and dehumanizing terms possible to describe these illegal invader filth monsters."

You're advocating for allowing murderers into the country?

Yeah, you're capable of any discussion of immigration policy.

Are you Shikha?

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

“…..filth monsters.”

No. Murderers. C’mon man! You can say it.

Nobody is really worried about filth monsters.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

They pretty much are.

[Stuck in California]

Yeah, I think I get your argument. A migrant is someone who moves from one place to another, usually for the sake of permanent resettlement or to move to a new job.

An illegal alien is not allowed residency, is not allowed to work, and should theoretically be persona non grata from any legal method of supporting himself. This is NOT someone who can legally settle permanently, nor legally follow jobs, they aren't a migrant.

Correct me if I'm wrong Chipper.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Someone here illegally is not an immigrant. They are not following our laws and assimilating into our culture. An immigrant is someone who comes here in compliance with US law, and is working to, or has become an American, or at least a Permanent resident alien.

[Nelson]

"Those are not mutually exclusive categories."

They actually are. Migrants have legal status.

[Incunabulum]

> There are currently 13,099 "non-detained" noncitizens on the docket who have been convicted of homicide, according to ICE.

So . . . there are 13,000 convicted murderers allowed into the country by the Biden-Harris Administration.

>"When ICE uses the term 'non-detained,' they mean not currently detained by ICE," noted Alex Nowrasteh, vice president for economic and social policy studies at the Cato Institute, this week. "In other words, the migrant murderers included in the letter are overwhelmingly in prison serving their sentences." After that, Nowrasteh continues, "the government transfers them onto ICE's docket for removal from the United States."

*Overwhelmingly?* So you can provide the percentages?

>There is a "small number of non-detained migrants" who have been convicted of homicide but can't be sent back to their home countries after serving their time, mostly because the U.S. doesn't have repatriation agreements with those countries, Nowrasteh says. A 2001 Supreme Court decision bars ICE from indefinitely keeping someone in immigration detention, but "non-detained" people are often still subject to ICE check-ins or electronic monitoring.

Starting to sound like all sorts of excuses and that that number is larger than 'small'.

[mad.casual]

Starting to sound like all sorts of excuses and that that number is larger than ‘small’.

As indicated above it sounds like yet another deliberately retarded, bad faith interpretation along the lines of "Haitians aren't eating *pets* out of people's yards." and "You don't need an ID to buy *groceries*."

[Minadin]

If countries won't accept their deported murderers back, deliver them via Pinochet Airlines.

When my college roommate was deported from Spain for violating his student visa (long story), the Spanish Federales raided his apartment in the middle of the night, threw him in a van, drove him to the border of Portugal, threw him out, and said 'deal with it'.

[Nelson]

"So ... there are 13,000 convicted murderers allowed into the country by the Biden-Harris Administration."

No, there are 13000 people who were convicted of murder (not necessarily before they entered) who entered the country illegally during the Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, Trump, and Biden Administrations.

"There is a “small number of non-detained migrants” who have been convicted of homicide but can’t be sent back to their home countries after serving their time, mostly because the U.S. doesn’t have repatriation agreements with those countries,"

Yes, this is a loophole that legally prevents the US from deporting them which, because we are a nation of laws, we follow. A solution would be to change the law. Complaining about it is not a solution.

The process for overturning a SCOTUS decision is long and difficult. Hopefully there are cases in the pipeline that would change the legal requirements.

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

Well, it’s all very selectively nuanced, and defeatist since apparently there’s nothing we can do about it.

Jeff can explain. And will, unfortunately.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

No no, Fiona, it’s too late. Trump said it with his yuge megaphone, so it becomes the socially-constructed truth among the Team Red faithful. We are all going to be hearing for years that “Biden let in 13,000 illegal murderers”.

I think this must be a purposeful strategy by the Team Red politicians other than Trump: deliberately push some plausible but misleading and/or outright false narrative out on social media, knowing that Trump will just lap it up and amplify the narrative. In this way they can get their voters to believe whatever they want, because Trump is their “media source”.

[Idaho-Bob]

If it isn't 13,000, how many murderers did Biden let in?

[Michael Ejercito]

And what is Europe's experience with rapefugees?

[Chumby]

You go to jail if you communicate you want them gone but if they rape a girl, cultural misunderstanding.

[Don't look at me!]

JD Vance is wrong about this, I just know it.

[Nelson]

JD Vance is wrong about a startlingly large number of things. But he's Trump's running mate, so he benefits from being less wrong than Trump. It makes him seem more like a used car salesman than a multi-level marketing CEO. Still sleazy, but less so.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Biden didn't "let" any of them in. Neither did Trump when he was in charge, even though it is a near certainty that a few illegal immigrant murderers snuck in on his watch.

You all think that there is some magic switch or some clever strategy not yet devised that can somehow shut down all the migration that you don't approve of. It doesn't exist.

[XM]

Well gee, chemjeff, how you do think the ROK and Japan prevents the Chinese from fleeing their hellhole to "migrate" there? They're the closest democracies.

Do you have any understanding how the real world works, outside of your moral absolutism?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

In China, a citizen needs permission from the state to even leave the country. That might have something to do with why there aren't more Chinese in Japan or Korea.

Do you really want a world where each of us has to seek permission from the state to travel?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You’re working hard for that by supporting your precious democrats.

[Lester75]

There are lots of Chinese in the U.S. who entered illegally. Most of them came on planes with vacation visas.

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

Well, starting in may I won’t be able to fly, even domestically, without a super duper “real ID”. Driver’s license not good enough. So yeah, that’s seeking permission from the state to travel.

No ID at all required to vote though. And if you’re in the country illegally the last thing you want is an ID. Lot harder to get away with murder if they can identify you.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Harris and Biden not only let them in, they even flew them here from their home countries.

https://cis.org/Bensman/Oped-Biden-Secretly-Has-Let-221456-Migrants-Fly-US-Past-Year

[P50flightm40]

+1

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

I wonder if they did any checking on any of those people.

[holmegm]

"You all think that there is some magic switch or some clever strategy not yet devised that can somehow shut down all the migration that you don’t approve of. It doesn’t exist."

I think "don't have 'sanctuary cities'" might be a good start.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Pedo Ieffy doesn’t care.

[Freethinksman]

It's exactly how it works. Politicians have known forever that the unwashed masses are not particularly critical thinkers. Trump took this axiom to its own absurd conclusion. He proved that *some* people will believe literally anything they are told as long as it is something they prefer. He found what scares the simplest people and weaponized their own gullibility in a sort of "idiot jujitsu" wherein the mass of a dullard's idiocy is used against him to make him even dumber. The dumber he is to start out, the dumber MAGA can make them. Then the rest of the cynics in his Party, who know they cannot possibly win the popular vote based on their own policies (as dictated by their megadonors), scrambled to pull the same move. And suddenly the bottom third of the electorate thinks illegal immigration is an immediate and existential threat. It's a fucking ouroboros of lunacy. So terrified are they, that even when a reasonable (and reasonably humane) immigration bill is drafted and gets enough bipartisan support needed to pass it into law, all Trump has to do is bullshit the morons some more by saying something (anything really) like, "it will only make things worse", and they all retreat behind his fat ass to "safety" and demand the bill be shelved. Trump keeps people scared, and with their bizarre inability to recognize the con man, they make themselves his marks yet again. What a champion fucking huckster that motherfucker is. And what voracious morons make up the bottom of the electorate that clamor to suck his "successful billionaire" dick.

The more easily verifiable evidence that exists to prove something, the deeper the Deep State gets.

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

“….. found what scares the simplest people….”

Climate change.

[DaveM]

Now that's funny. Well done.

[dudleysharp]

The number of non-citizen murderers in the US is guaranteed to be much higher than 13,000, as with al other crimes as well.

Our gotaways the last nearly four years, are near 2 million but those are the ones we have counted. It could easily be another 2 million that we haven't counted, with all of them wanting to escape processing, even though we offer great benefit to those prcessed.

No one doubts why they don't want to be caught. No one.

Furthermore, "From 2015 to 2021, only about 7% of murder cases in Mexico resulted in a conviction, according to Monserrat Lopez, a data analyst with Impunidad Cero, which has released the fifth edition of its report analyzing impunity in Mexico.

Conviction rates for femicides — the killing of a woman or girl because of her gender — were higher, at about 44%. However, the report emphasized that only about 20% of murders of women and girls were investigated as femicides in 2021, with each state applying a different set of criteria."

Rapes and other assaults are vastly higher in number and lower in being solved, very similar to many of the other countries depositing criminals in the US, WITH US HAVING NO IDEA HOW MANY OF THOSE PROCESSED ARE RAPISTS AND MURDERERS.

Is Fiona unaware? How? Why?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

They don’t care. None of these people suffer for the evil things they support. For example, we all know full well Pedo Jeffy doesn’t live in a border town. Nor does he care what his preferred policies do to those people. He is a soulless globalist neo Marxist Sorosite who will say anything to advance the cause of open borders.

If millions of Americans are impoverished, homeless and raped/murdered because of him, oh well. The blood of Americans will be used to grease the wheels of the open borders train. It’s the Pedo Jeffy way. Just the same as his desire to murder, rape and mutilate children.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Many years ago my mother, who was a hardcore leftist, told me that the US was the only country on the planet that ever had a serial killer which was a lefty talking point at the time. After pointing out that Jack the Ripper might qualify for that designation, I pointed out that in probably most of the world people disappear (or are disappeared) all of the time. And dead bodies are commonly found in remote locations or in public view. And that local authorities in many cases either don't have the wherewithal to identify or have political reasons not to identify the killer(s). We're the wealthiest nation on the planet but even here the vast majority of crimes are never prosecuted. It's obvious that people get away with murder in the US every day and those numbers are likely to be much higher in the places where unvetted immigrants are coming from.

[Freethinksman]

"The number of non-citizen murderers in the US is guaranteed to be much higher than 13,000."

Well then. Even with an effort to provide evidence to the contrary, I guess the author has nothing on your hunch. If we accept your premise as gospel, then any other bullshit relying on your premise makes perfect sense. The problem is that if you start with stupid to prove more stupid, you just get amplified stupidity. And it's fucking deafening in here.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

And guess what, this is the very predictable result. The responses to this article.

THEY'RE MANIPULATING YOU. This is exactly Team Red's AND Team Blue's purposeful strategy. They lie to you and push half-truths in order to stoke fear and outrage and hatred and anger. Because angry voters show up to vote more than non-angry ones.

They are lying to you and using you for your vote, after which they will discard you like yesterday's garbage.

If these politicians actually respected you, they would tell you the truth and be confident in your well-informed, fair judgment. But they don't respect you, they lie to you, use you and manipulate you. And you *let them*.

Have some self-respect and don't let them use you like this.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

We should be angry, angry at you and your fellow travelers among the democrat party.

[XM]

No one's manipulating anything, you blind TDS stricken sheep.

There has not been any "revitalization" of towns due to massive migration. They've become a burden to a nation already buckling under the pressure of inflation and chronic unemployment. The NYC is nominally the greatest city in the world and they waved the white flag on just 200,000 migrants. Eric Adams displayed unusual integrity in confronting the crisis, thus encouraging conspiracy theories that his indictment is payback from the feds.

All 20,000 Haitians in Springfield Ohio get government housing vouchers and welfare. The media haven't covered community concerns beyond the "they eat cats" allegation. But even without that, the notion that the government paying for upkeep for thousands of foreigners while ignoring their own people would infuriate EVERY known nation on earth.

You think Latinos are starting to trend Trump because they're under his Svengali like spell? What, did the democrat party somehow become less populist than Trump? How ignorant can you be? I'm an immigrant. We're tired of this economy and the porous border. Had the port strike continued, Hmart and 99 ranch may have gone out of business. Latinos live in communities or work in places that house migrants. They're firsthand witnesses to the migrant blight.

No country can indefinitely admit countless amount of foreigners. It is not safe to let in thousands of unverified foreigners in your nation at a time of crisis. "Just let them in because they just want to find work" is not how any serious company, let alone a nation.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

He isn’t blind. He’s just committed to his narrative and doesn’t give a shit about the truth. Pedo Jeffy doesn’t care how many Americans get murdered because of him and his fellow travelers anymore than he cares about how many children are murdered, mutilated and raped because of him.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Your entire response is full of lies and half-truths that you are most likely unwittingly regurgitating because the manipulation on you has been so strong.

There has not been any “revitalization” of towns due to massive migration.

Actually, there has. Springfield itself is evidence of this.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP44220

All 20,000 Haitians in Springfield Ohio get government housing vouchers and welfare

That's not true at all. First, there aren't even 20,000 Haitian migrants there. Second, not even all of the Haitians that are there are recent arrivals. Some are Haitian migrants who have been in the US for a long time, and decided to migrate there because of the lower cost of living. Of course there are some who are on government assistance, but it's not ALL of them.

the government paying for upkeep for thousands of foreigners while ignoring their own people

Where is the "ignoring" part? Where is the US citizen who was turned down for welfare because supposedly some Haitian got it first? That is what I don't understand.

No country can indefinitely admit countless amount of foreigners.

Funny, because this is EXACTLY the story of America itself. People came here from all over the place, with no quotas or no limits on who could enter, and that is what made America. It is only recently in American history has the immigration restrictionism become a thing.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Because you democrats created the welfare state. This is all your fault, Fatfuck.

[damikesc]

"Where is the “ignoring” part? Where is the US citizen who was turned down for welfare because supposedly some Haitian got it first? That is what I don’t understand."

FEMA spent over a billion on housing illegals and now they have no money for hurricane/natural disaster victims.

And the fiscal year started 5 days ago.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Cite?

[damikesc]

The Dept of Homeland Security.

Their honesty, of course, is debatable.

[Nelson]

"Where is the US citizen who was turned down for welfare because supposedly some Haitian got it first?"

You don't really think that migrants are in the same programs (like SNAP) that citizens are, do you? Well, you probably do. Your question is literally based on a false belief.

--> "Only U.S. citizens and certain lawfully present non-citizens may receive SNAP benefits. SNAP is not and has never been available to undocumented non-citizens. Non-citizens like tourists and students are generally not eligible. Non-citizens who are eligible based on their immigration status must meet SNAP eligibility requirements, such as income and resource limits, and may also need to meet a waiting period."

https://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/recipient/eligibility/non-citizen

Note the FAQ of "Do I have to provide proof of my immigration status?" Being answered "Yes.". So no illegal immigrants, either.

"FEMA spent over a billion on housing illegals and now they have no money for hurricane/natural disaster victims."

They have plenty of money for hurricane/natural disaster victims. We have never, as a country, failed to fund disaster response. And that very much includes the Helene victims, despite the active efforts to lie about it by those with political agendas.

"And the fiscal year started 5 days ago."

Right? Thank God Mike Johnson and the Republicans have returned us to regular order like they prom... what? They didn't? After they promised? Well, shit.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You do understand that resources from various federal agencies has been redirected towards the illegals? The VA is one example, FEMA is another.

Granted, you won’t hear these things from MSNBC, so you’re poorly informed

[HanksterAce]

Washington Post. Enough said.

[Real American]

we let in 13k murderers without checking them out first and they're clogging our jails waiting for Democrats to let them out because they might get the sniffles, but we have nothing to worry about...

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Not to mention the sex change surgeries we'll be on the hook for.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

I am actually OK with castrating and emasculating on the taxpayer's dime, any illegal we catch.

I imagine it would serve as a strong deterrent to others.

[Rick James]

Why would a gang member even want to leave El Salvador?

[P50flightm40]

Because, while the officials there struggle to contain gang activity, they’re brutal to the members it can catch. It’s unpleasant.

Most gang members are actually quite amenable to being useless welfare cheats in this country, where the worst they have to fear is sharing a jail cell with someone who farts at night.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

True. American jail is a country club compared to jail in El Salvador. Especially with so many democrat government officials so eager to protect them.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

I know I've been guilty of this myself but all this rhetoric and these statistics are a distraction from the core issue. JD Vance is wrong about illegals set free to roam our streets. And toasters.

[Nelson]

You could have just stopped after the word "wrong".

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

Yeah, that’s the point, dumbass.

[MWAocdoc]

What?! Politicians lying to make political points? How could that be?! Say it ain't SO, Joe!

[JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You know what a better story is than making excuses for murders by illegal immigrants? A story on the number of illegal immigrants who were known rapists and murders in their home countries but DHS released them before doing a simple background check.

Or a story about how crime of rape and murder is down because Venezuela emptied their prisons to let them migrate north.

Not only does Fiona want us to take all the worlds poor, but also all the worlds murderers.

Meanwhile Jeff is again making excuses for illegal immigrant criminals days after defending government spending on illegals as he demands others be forced to pay on money and crime for his preferred population.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Or a story about how crime of rape and murder is down because Venezuela emptied their prisons to let them migrate north.

Why would Reason write a story based on a false premise?

https://www.factcheck.org/2024/06/crime-drop-in-venezuela-does-not-prove-trumps-claim-the-country-is-sending-criminals-to-u-s/

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So in doing some searching on this story, I think I found the genesis of the right-wing narrative that "Venezuela is emptying the prisons and sending the prisoners to the US".

It appears to be this story:

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2022/09/18/exclusive-venezuela-empties-prisons-sends-violent-criminals-to-u-s-says-dhs-report/

This article describes a leaked internal DHS memo that tells border agents to be on the lookout for possible Venezuelan criminals coming to the US. It was from an anonymous leaker, and from Breitbart (lol), so who knows how legit this story even is. Even still, it doesn't claim that there is some purposeful release of prisoners by the government of Venezuela to push them to migrate to the US.

That story, was cited by a Republican congresscritter

https://nehls.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/nehls.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Follow%20Up%20Letter%20to%20DHS%20on%20Venezuela.pdf

where the story was transformed into "they're doing it on purpose". And then of course Trump got hold of it.

That is how it happened. A sketchy anonymous story from a sketchy website was boosted and manipulated by Team Red to scare you and make you angry.

There is still no evidence that there is any purposeful strategy by the government of Venezuela to release criminals from prison and send them to the US.

[damikesc]

"Breitbart"

Infinitely more reliable than MSNBC.

More so than ABC.

Moreso than CBS.

Take that for what it is worth.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

lol

[damikesc]

Feel free to list which one is accurate.

MSNBC is the Kamala campaign writ large.

ABC? The 100% positive coverage of Kamala network? Yeah.

CBS? The same.

[Social Justice is neither]

Of course the guy who thinks pedophiles who SA others in detainment thinks they should be free in this country.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Tren de Aragua is a Venezuelan Prison Gang, you imbecilic syphyllitic doofus. How is it that they are running neighborhoods all over the US now? How is it that they are pushing native Chicago street gangs off their own turf, causing them to band together?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Let me make this simple for you.

The presence of a particular Venezuelan criminal inside the US does not constitute proof that that criminal was intentionally set free in Venezuela and directed by their government to come to the US.

[damikesc]

Yup, dictators are routinely known for having things done under their noses and all.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

A story on the number of illegal immigrants who were known rapists and murders in their home countries but DHS released them before doing a simple background check.

Do you have a citation for this story?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Meanwhile Jeff is again making excuses for illegal immigrant criminals

Nope, not making excuses for criminals. If guilty they deserve their fair punishment. Unlike you, however, I am not making excuses for lying politicians.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You know your precious democrats will do nothing to these illegals. Thats why you’re ok with it.

[DesigNate]

You’ve literally advocated that they should be allowed asylum here…

[chemjeff radical individualist]

No - my *actual* argument is this:

The purpose of asylum is to grant refuge to individuals who are being oppressed. To determine if an individual is being oppressed, we should look at the actions of the OPPRESSOR. If we look at the moral character of the OPPRESSED when determining if a person deserves asylum on a moral basis, then it is morally equivalent to saying that oppression of an immoral person is okay because the immoral person deserves it on some level. That is equivalent to letting the oppressor off the hook for his/her oppression.

Do you see this now?

[Nobartium]

So yes.

Fuck them.

[damikesc]

"If we look at the moral character of the OPPRESSED when determining if a person deserves asylum on a moral basis, then it is morally equivalent to saying that oppression of an immoral person is okay because the immoral person deserves it on some level"

No. It is saying "Sucks what is happening but that is a headache we do not remotely need".

Don't be a murderer etc when seeking asylum.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Send them back to there country, or the geographically nearest safe country, per international treaty. There is no forum shipping for asylum. And especially not for economic migrants, which is what these illegals are.

[JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

4 comments from the illegal pedo. New record I think.

[Chumby]

Illegal alien boys may be less likely to contact authorities when some MAPedo goes Jared from Subway on them.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

And they need the money more. Perhaps Jeffy wishes to order out for a little Mexican?

[Nelson]

"A story on the number of illegal immigrants who were known rapists and murders in their home countries but DHS released them before doing a simple background check."

And how many was that, Jesse? A rough guesstimate would do.

"Or a story about how crime of rape and murder is down because Venezuela emptied their prisons to let them migrate north."

The far right fever swamps have written a bunch of those stories. They just keep running into the whole "there's no factual basis for this theory" problem.

The worst part is that illegal immigration is a real problem that requires complex and serious solutions.

And yet the ones who claim to be most concerned about it are so busy making hysterical claims about illegal immigrants being rapists and murderers that they have no credibility and so are easily dismissed by serious people.

Systemic reform and systemic changes based on facts, not emotion, are the only way to improve the situation. The law Trump killed would have been a good first step. But now we're back to square one.

Further, even, because any trust that was built while creating that bill has been destroyed. Who would trust someone during negotiations when they have hard proof of the spinelessness and lack of integrity of the one across the table from them?

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

Lol. Awww, they shot down a shitty bill that did nothing. Cry more.

We already have laws. Did you know that?

[BillEverman]

Why would emptying their PRISONS lower Venezuela's crime rate? Pro tip: to lower the crime rate, you need to find a way to get the criminals who AREN'T ALREADY LOCKED UP out of the country.

[Rick James]

At least they can get a business license in Colorado.

[mad.casual]

As long as they bake the cakes.

[sarcasmic]

Trump: 13,000 migrant murderers are on the loose!

Fiona: No, they’re in prison.

Commentariat: You hate Trump! You love migrant murderers! You’re a Democrat!

What a bunch of maroons.

[Chumby]

I’m still laughing that KAR got you drunk then you gave him handjobs.

[sarcasmic]

That’s a lie. He never got me drunk.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Didn't need to.

* You already were.

* You would have serviced him anyway.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

It’s a part of his concierge program for the other hobos that pass out with him in his piss soaked alley. He lets them spitroast him for a sixer.

[BillEverman]

Yeah, that was the joke. But it's much better now that you explained it.

[Rick James]

That's a lie, they're not on the loose!

[damikesc]

"Trump: 13,000 migrant murderers are on the loose!

Fiona: No, they’re in prison."

Us having to pay for their prison stay is, somehow, a GOOD option?

[EISTAU Gree-Vance]

It’s crazy that they think this is some kind of gotcha. Completely brainwashed.

[Scotterbee]

Not, it means they're "not on the loose" you fucking illiterate retard

[damikesc]

Are they here AT ALL?

THAT is the problem.

And if they're in jail here, it is because they committed crimes here.

[StevenF]

"When ICE uses the term 'non-detained,' they mean not currently detained by ICE," noted Alex Nowrasteh, vice president for economic and social policy studies at the Cato Institute, this week. "In other words, the migrant murderers included in the letter are overwhelmingly in prison serving their sentences."

Actually, it means NONE of them are serving their sentences. 100% of them were convicted in other countries before entering the US. They CANNOT serve those sentences in the US. You are clearly more interested in bashing Trump than having a clue.

[sarcasmic]

Wow.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Wow, as in "I just realized how dumb I am", or wow, as in "I really am that dumb"?

[Stupid Government Tricks]

I wondered about that myself. If they were convicted elsewhere, they either served their sentence, have no sentence to serve in the US, and are serving a new sentence for some crime committed here; or they escaped, their home country told us to keep him, so we’re footing the bill and they won’t take them back when the sentence is over.

Since when do foreign criminals convicted of crimes in foreign countries serve their sentences here? I’ve never heard of any such arrangements.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Because it doesn’t exist. Nor is there any legal mechanism for that. Look at what we had to go through to keep all those Islamic terrorists locked up at GitMo. Just imagine what all those democrat lawyers would do if they found out we were incarcerating foreigners here based on criminal sentences hand down in foreign courts.

Pedo Jeffy would certainly be leading the charge here to let them free….. into zamerica, with full welfare benefits and voting ‘rights’.

[Quicktown Brix]

Since when do foreign criminals convicted of crimes in foreign countries serve their sentences here?

Never. I think we're mixed up here.

Sean Kennedy, who specializes in law enforcement and crime data analysis, said the numbers of noncitizens in the U.S. who have murder convictions...is much higher than...the detained and non-detained dockets because those convictions only apply to crimes committed in the U.S. and not murders committed in migrants’ home countries.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/immigrant-murder-rate-tens-thousands-higher-than-ices-bombshell-figures-data-expert

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Thanks for that, and sorry to respond so late. That does clear up some of it, maybe most of it. But every discussion I've seen strongly implies that these migrants had crossed the border as convicted criminals. That quote is the first I've seen saying otherwise. I'll keep this in mind the next few days as the topic blows up or fades from the public view.

[Quicktown Brix]

Let us know if you find out otherwise. This makes more sense to me, both why they're incarcerated here and how we know their conviction status.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Their incarceration status was another puzzle, and remains so for immigration control. How do you find any immigrant's status in his home country? You're dependent on cooperation of both the immigrant and the home country. You can't even know the home country with any certainty. Language and dialect are no guarantee of anything as local as country of origin, It's hard enough detecting fake IDs of your own, let alone whatever some desperate refugee shows you, and if the home country wants to get rid of criminals or infiltrate terrorists, they're liable to say anything, provide any new ID and fake background necessary.

[DesigNate]

That’s not really that much better.

But at least it sounds like we aren’t footing the bill to incarcerate someone who should be serving time in their home country.

[Quicktown Brix]

That’s not really that much better.

No it’s not. I’m not trying to spin anything though, just clarify the number we’re looking at.

[DesigNate]

Oh I didn’t think you were trying to spin, just adding my .02 cents.

[Nelson]

“Actually, it means NONE of them are serving their sentences. 100% of them were convicted in other countries before entering the US”

What are you talking about? These are illegal immigrants. We don’t know who they are, where they are, or what they’ve done before they are arrested for something else (like murder). At which point they are incarcerated here for the crime they committed here.

[awildseaking]

I just wonder if TDS is chronic or not. Like, are you people still going to suffer from brainrot 60 years from now when I'm on my deathbed?

This is plain old missing the forest because trees are in the way. Trump is not very good or fond of explaining technical details. Focusing on the big picture doesn't make you a liar or omitter. It just means you have a different purpose in life. That's what leaders are supposed to do.

How did these 13,000 get into jails in the first place? By being on the loose at some point or another. Ok, so it happened over a 40 year period. So what? Here's the reality:

1. There are 13,000 known murderers who illegally entered the US over the past 40 years.
2. During most of those 40 years, illegal immigration enforcement was not a political issue.
3. There is more illegal immigration today than there was 40 years ago.
4. We do not know how many people are unaccounted for.
5. Zero information provided about how many known murderers were returned to their home countries to serve sentences.
6. Zero information provided about how many illegal immigrants committed additional crimes after entering the US.

I'm curious about the numbers for overall impact, but unless it's single digit, we have a serious problem. I know zero isn't a realistic number, but why isn't the number as close to zero as possible? Conceptually, it should be. America is a nation. We are its citizens. You can't (and shouldn't) pre-emptively jail US citizens who might be predisposed to crime, but if we strictly enforce immigration and defend our border, fewer people will enter illegally and some of these crimes would have been eliminated. Why weren't they? Why are US citizens not the top priority of the US government?

Functionally, our govt has been saying that the perceived benefits of illegal immigration outweigh the costs. The lives of US citizens are a sacrifice the govt is willing to make. I don't care if these people aren't aligned with a foreign power; they are traitors. About time we call a spade a spade.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

but if we strictly enforce immigration and defend our border, fewer people will enter illegally and some of these crimes would have been eliminated. Why weren’t they? Why are US citizens not the top priority of the US government?

This cannot happen without also simultaneously violating the rights of US citizens. This is the paradox your team faces.

How do you know if a person is in the country legally or not? Well, just ask them for their papers. Soon this becomes a requirement for EVERYONE to carry their papers with them. Every employer has to prove that they are hiring only legal residents. That is a regulatory burden that they all face. The border becomes a 50-mile "rights-free zone" so that the border patrol can chase the illegulz. And then there's the eminent domain required to build the stupid wall.

Making US citizens the top priority ALSO means respecting their rights and their liberties.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

If we got rid of your kind all of this would be much easier, you created this situation.

[XM]

"How do you know if a person is in the country legally or not? Well, just ask them for their papers. Soon this becomes a requirement for EVERYONE to carry their papers with them."

So in every country where proof of citizenship is required to vote, foreigners have to walk around with papers with them? Passports, green cards and work visas aren't like driver's licenses, you don't need them inside your pocket to go out.

You can register to vote at home. My local library requires that I show proof of residency to get a card. Same thing with welfare office. Oh no, Mcdonalds might be required to hire only citizens and show papers one day? Oh wait, they kinda already have to do that.

You're so lost. What can be done to help you?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I'm not talking about showing papers to vote. I'm talking about just being asked to show papers on demand period. That day is coming when every citizen will become required to carry papers at all times and present them to law enforcement upon demand. Because "how else will we know if the random guy on the street is an illegal???"
And we will absolutely not be able to count on you to push back against these abuses, because you'll be the ones cheering them on.

Oh no, Mcdonalds might be required to hire only citizens and show papers one day? Oh wait, they kinda already have to do that.

See? There we go. This wasn't always the case you know. This was a usurpation of liberties, that you don't even recognize now and you are using to justify even more usurpations.

You DON'T put US citizens as the top priority. You put YOUR INTERESTS as the top priority, and then convince yourself that they also correspond to everyone else's. Well, they don't.

[Liberty Yeti]

We don't have to do that.

Simply put, if you *knowingly* hire or give a dollar of aid to any foreigner who is in the country illegally, you and that illegal should be branded as terrorist traitors and treated as such. If you are a government welfare office and do it, the staff who approved it are fired and permanently barred from serving in government in any capacity whatsoever.

Nobody needs to "carry papers everywhere" for this. Shut off the spigot and they'll have to leave. Send 'em to Canada if they won't self deport.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You democrat scumbags are bringing them here by design. This is all your fault.

[JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Jeff will die in less than 60 years from obesity related maladies. Sarc from Cirrhosis of the liver. We may never find out.

[XM]

"This is plain old missing the forest because trees are in the way."

Exactly. You're seeing this kind of coping right now from the TDS crowd who says "FEMA didn't block roads, local cops did." Missing the point allows them to rationalize their fixation on Trump.

Chemjeff snarked "classy move" on the republicans for making DEI an issue, after every known footage of unprecedented secret service failure was made available to the public. Then he accused him of "being a coward" for not accepting Kamala's debate terms. He was only shot at and actually did interviews before a hostile crowd. This guy is so far gone that if migrants nuked NYC tomorrow, he'll deride Trump for saying "We'll deport the rats who did this" as dehumanizing rhetoric. Trump's mistakes must be confronted as a minister calls out a sinner, but the systemic failures of government can be ignored.

TDS isn't any different than any kind prejudice. It's an irrational fear and phobia that often plunges the afflicted into delusions.
The neo nazi that print thousands of "How Jews created AIDS" channels TDS spirit. "The Jews are lying to them, they tricked them, so I have to be the voice of truth for the indoctrinated"

[Gaear Grimsrud]

So Reason tells us on an almost daily basis that illegal (yeah I know they conflate illegal with legal so I'll play along) immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans. How do they reach this conclusion? Well they inevitably cite Cato (no way they could possibly have an agenda) Who cite government statistics (no way they could possibly have an agenda). But let's assume that the Reason narrative is 110% true and then hypothetically your 12 year old daughter is grabbed off of the street by a couple of illegal immigrants, brutally raped, strangled to death and dumped in a river. According to Reason she would be more likely to be grabbed off the street, raped, murdered and dumped by native born Americans. Cato said so. But we're left to wonder. What if these illegals hadn't been here at all? How would that effect the odds? This is the question that the Koch libertarians refuse to face because cheap labor is the overarching goal.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Neither they, nor scum like Jeffy care. He would be perfectly happy if several million children were raped and murdered by illegals here every year if it meant he got his open borders. These people are the enemy and should be dealt with accordingly.

[JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

The CATO study was hilariously broken apart. They used arrest data prior to determination of residency status. Analysis of the Texas jails, post determined status, showed the opposite.

[Scotterbee]

Broken apart? You mean like your dreams of having a family instead of a whiny forgotten voter?

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...Functionally, our govt has been saying that the perceived benefits of illegal immigration outweigh the costs..."

Further, that we should have sympathy for them, since they live in a hell-hole.
Simply put, that is NOT MY PROBLEM; it is theirs and they need to fix their hell hole rather than come here and bring the culture which made their home a hell-hole with them.
Lefty shits assume they can move elsewhere and being a lefty shit will somehow be OK there. It won't; lefty shits are the problem, not the location of the lefty shits.

[Nelson]

"5. Zero information provided about how many known murderers were returned to their home countries to serve sentences."

Presumably none. They wouldn't serve a sentence in their home country for a crime committed here. Unless one of the lawyers here knows of laws that allow it?

6. Zero information provided about how many illegal immigrants committed additional crimes after entering the US.

Presumably all of the incarcerated ones. Much like they wouldn't serve a sentence in another country for a crime they committed here, if they are incarcerated here it's for a crime committed here.

[BillEverman]

"Ok, so it happened over a 40 year period. So what?"

Because there's a big difference between looking at, say, rainfall totals over the last forty years versus how much rain is coming down TODAY, or how many murders are committed by ANYONE over the last forty years versus how many are being committed THIS MONTH, or basically anything else. Are you really this dense?

[Uncle Jay]

"No, 13,000 Migrant Murderers Are Not Running Loose."

Laken Reilly is not available for comment.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

These things happen…….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH7yhynvaPs

The video basically illustrates what it’s like to deal with wokies like JeffSarc.

[TJJ2000]

“Trump paints a terrifying picture of migrants and migration, but the reality is” …
a nation shouldn’t need a ‘terrifying picture’ to want to prevent a foreign invasion.

Unless of course too many treasonous invaders are already here.
The USA has by-far more immigration than any other large nation in the world.

75%+ of all immigrants vote for the ‘democratic’ [Na]tional So[zi]alist party.
Immigration should be 25% of what it is for those who want a USA; not the same Socialism that destroyed their own nation.

[DefineReasonable]

“In other words, the migrant murderers included in the letter are overwhelmingly in prison serving their sentences.”

PROVE IT

[AT]

Some, including Trump, have taken "non-detained" to mean "roaming free." But this is false.

Are they in America? Should they be?

He often talks about a "migrant crime" wave and claims that it "is taking over America."

Every single man, woman, child, and baby that crossed that border illegally is a criminal. So, yea, migrant crime wave. And as Team Biden and Kamala the Border Czar continue to import them in numbers more than even major cities can handle, that's a takeover.

Word games are fun.

Trump has routinely said outrageous, misleading, and false things about immigrants and crime.

"There are currently 13,099 "non-detained" noncitizens on the docket who have been convicted of homicide, according to ICE."

So, let me get this straight Fi.

We opened the borders.
We didn't vet anyone.
We hampered LEO's ability to do anything about them.
They're not citizens.
They directly, provably, caused thousands and thousands and thousands of murders (and even more sex and property crimes).
But pairing illegal aliens (as opposed to "immigrants," which they're not, because they didn't immigrate) with crime is "false and misleading."

Uh huh. Let me guess, "it's complicated and nuanced, and dumb hicks like Trump and his bigoted supporters just don't get it," right?

As an aside, can I just point out that the most vocally pissed off group about border jumpers taking over their cities and communities are - hilariously enough - black people? Especially urban blacks? It's why the Democrat party is hemorrhaging them and they're flipping to Team Donald. The message is out - Democrats care more about illegal criminals than the American black community.

What a time we live in.

but the reality is far more nuanced

LOL. Did I call that or what.

See, the problem is that you're using Wrongthing and Oldspeak. You need to let the Ministry of Truth figure these things out for you. They won't mislead you.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

I'd say Fiona is making a laughingstock of Reason... but it happened a long time before she arrived.

[Stuck in California]

Oh, she's the cherry on the top of the shit sundae, though.

I gave her a chance when she first arrived. Defended her as someone who could get her feet under her and develop...

I gave up on that idea about the fourth time we got a "There's a war so we should import all the refugees immediately" type article. She beats the same drum, over and over, and has NEVER presented a single argument that might win people over. Just the same hackneyed talking points, ad nauseam, with less than nothing to add to the conversation.

Reason is just sad anymore. I mean, it's bad. Really bad. I seldom read more than one article a day, and that fact has me coming to the links just to wonder if it's nothing but a buzzfeed style clickbait site combined with modern rage-click internet trolling anymore.

Liz does OK in the mornings, I like that she's diverse, has a perspective, and seems to think about things other than unlimited open borders and whoring. And most brickbats are still about what you should expect. Remy, Heaton, and the Braggs are still tack sharp and just about the only ones who seem to understand Libertarian principles, and also their limitations and nuances. When your most powerful libertarian thinkers are the joke songsters and parody youtubers, your "magazine" has definitely lost its way.

Whatever, keep up the Remy, more Heaton and more Bragg.

[AT]

She's a product of the machine that churned her out. Like so many of her generation, she was programmed to be a mindless automaton that never deviates from the programming. She was taught what to think, and never how to think.

That's why they're always so repetitive. They literally don't know anything else, and have no ability or skills needed to learn it.

[LIBtranslator]

Kinda like ATF here...

[AT]

LAWL U got me so good but I am rubber you are glue whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you! *mic drop*

*eyeroll*

[IceTrey]

If .001% are murderers that's 20,000.

[JeremyR]

Is that really much better though? "Sure, we have 13,000 convicted murderers from foreign countries here but most are in jail"

With that said, at least we aren't having one throw out the first pitch at a baseball game, like Mathew Broderick in the UK (where he killed 2 people)

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Matthew Broderick killed two people with a baseball? That could make him an even more deadly actor than Alec ‘Bang Bang’ Baldwin!

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

So it's only 12,500?
FOAD, asshole.

[LIBtranslator]

The article is true. I’ve seen hundreds of alien jailbirds sent packing after serving state or federal terms. A large number of girl-bulliers are grabbed and deported after bravely beating up their wives or girlfriends, thus obtruding on the notice of county and city gendarmes. So long as the USA forces smaller countries to ban trade and production–the way Germany did Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Belgium and France–those economies will collapse into Hoovervilles and spawn refugee diasporas. Republican prohibitionism wrecks economies wherever they venture to thrive.

[AT]

I’ve seen hundreds of alien jailbirds sent packing

No you haven't. And you've omitted the fact that they just turn around and come right back with impunity.

[IATDE]

Amazing. Such incredible obfuscating writing. Such unobservant reading.

“The number of convicted criminals on ICE’s nondetained docket hasn’t grown significantly under President Joe Biden, reported The Washington Post’s Glenn Kessler. In August 2016, five months before Trump took office, there were 368,574 on the docket; in June 2021, five months into Biden’s presidency, there were 405,786; and in December 2022, nearly two years into Biden’s presidency, there were 407,983.”

407983-368573 = 39,410 more convicted criminals during the Biden Administration came into the country illegally.

But the author indicates this “hasn’t grown significantly under President Joe Biden”. That’s a 10.7% increase. Seems very significant.

For context, according to the US Dept of Justice publication – “Prisoners in 2022- Statistical Tables” there were in 2022:

33,865 prisoners in Arizona
32,374 prisoners in Michigan
31,148 in New York

In fact, only 6 states had more criminals incarcerated in 2022 than ICE has acknowledged were let into the United States during the Biden Administration. 1 for every 10,000 people in the US.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/document/p22st.pdf#:~:text=Ninety-six%20percent%20of%20persons%20in%20U.S.%20prisons%20in%202022%20were#:~:text=Ninety-six%20percent%20of%20persons%20in%20U.S.%20prisons%20in%202022%20were