A Georgia Teenager Killed 4 People at His High School. Why Is His Father Charged With Murder?
The case is another example of stretching criminal laws to hold parents accountable for their children's violence.

On Wednesday, a 14-year-old boy shot and killed two students and two teachers at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia. On Thursday night, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation announced that Colin Gray, the boy's father, had been charged with two counts of second-degree murder and several other felonies.
Although the details of Colin Gray's conduct are not yet completely clear, the gist of the case is that he negligently gave his son Colt, a freshman at the high school, access to the rifle he used in the shooting. Since Georgia does not have a law that explicitly treats such negligence as a crime, prosecutors are stretching other laws to cover Colin Gray's alleged failures as a parent.
Earlier this year, Michigan prosecutors used a similar strategy to convict the parents of the teenager who killed four students at Oxford High School in November 2021. Last February, a jury convicted Jennifer Crumbley on four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Her husband, James Crumbley, who was tried separately, was convicted of the same charges in March. The following month, they received sentences of 10 to 15 years in prison.
At the time of the Oxford High School shooting, Michigan did not have a child access prevention (CAP) law, which makes it a crime to negligently allow minors unsupervised access to firearms. Since Michigan legislators "refused to criminalize the conduct in which the Crumbley parents engaged," former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy argued after they were charged, prosecutors were "attempting in the heat of the moment to criminalize the conduct themselves." The extent of the Crumbleys' culpability in their son's crimes was unclear, and the law under which they were charged did not obviously apply to their conduct. The Georgia case raises similar issues.
Even if Colin Gray shares some of the moral responsibility for his son's actions, holding him criminally liable requires showing that his conduct fits the elements of a specific offense. At this point, that seems doubtful.
Although Georgia does not have a full-fledged CAP law, it does impose criminal penalties on adults who provide firearms to minors in certain circumstances. But the law applies only to handguns. Under that statute, "any person" who "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly…sell[s] or furnish[es] a pistol or revolver" to someone younger than 18 is guilty of a felony punishable by three to five years in prison. That provision does not apply to a parent or guardian who lets a minor possess a handgun for lawful purposes such as hunting, shooting competitions, and firearms training unless the parent or guardian "is aware of a substantial risk" that the minor "will use a pistol or revolver to commit a felony offense" and does not "make reasonable efforts to prevent commission of the offense."
If Colt Gray had used a handgun in the attack on Apalachee High School, that law might have covered his father's conduct, depending on exactly what he did or failed to do. But since the law does not apply to rifles, this charge was not an option. Prosecutors therefore are relying on statutes that are less obviously relevant.
The second-degree murder charges are based on a statute that applies to someone who "causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice" while committing "cruelty to children in the second degree." The latter crime is defined as causing someone younger than 18 to suffer "cruel or excessive physical or mental pain" with "criminal negligence," which in turn is defined as "an act or failure to act which demonstrates a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby."
As with the involuntary manslaughter charges against Jennifer and James Crumbley, which required proving that they "willfully disregard[ed] the results to others that might follow from an act or failure to act," showing that Colin Gray was careless will not be enough to convict him of second-degree murder. Prosecutors will have to prove that he reasonably should have known his son was apt to commit mass murder. They also will have to prove that Colin Gray's conduct demonstrated "a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others."
Colin Gray also faces eight counts of cruelty to children in the second degree, the same crime that underlies the murder charges. That is a felony punishable by one to 10 years in prison.
Finally, Colin Gray is charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Under Georgia law, a person is guilty of that offense when he "causes the death of another human being without any intention to do so by the commission of an unlawful act other than a felony" or "by the commission of a lawful act in an unlawful manner likely to cause death or great bodily harm." In the first case, that offense is a felony punishable by one to 10 years in prison. In the latter case, it is a misdemeanor.
Can prosecutors prove the criminal negligence that is required to convict Colin Gray of second-degree murder or cruelty to children? In the Michigan cases, it seemed clear that the Crumbleys did not understand exactly how troubled their son was and did not recognize that he was prone to violence, let alone mass murder. But the jury evidently concluded that they would have known those things if they were better, more attentive parents. In essence, the Crumbleys were convicted and sent to prison because they did not anticipate what their son would do.
In Colin Gray's case, there is some evidence to support the allegation that he likewise was insufficiently concerned about his son's state of mind. In May 2023, The New York Times reports, the FBI received anonymous tips that a participant in a Discord chat group had threatened to "shoot up a middle school." The alarming comment was made under a username in Russian letters that translated as "Lanza," an apparent reference to the perpetrator of the 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. The Jackson County Sheriff's Office traced the email address associated with the Discord account to Colt Gray, then 13.
The boy and his father both told investigators they did not speak Russian, and the boy denied that he was the source of the threat. According to a report on the investigation, the boy said he had a Discord account at one point but had deleted it because it had been repeatedly hacked and he was "afraid someone would use his information for nefarious purposes." He insisted "he would never say such a thing, even in a joking manner."
Colin Gray "told an investigator that he and his wife were divorced and had been evicted from their home," the Times reports. "His wife took their younger two children, he said, and he and his son had moved into a new home." Colin Gray said his son had "some problems at West Jackson Middle School and now that he was going to Jefferson Middle School it was a lot better."
Contrary to that assessment, Colt Gray's aunt told The Washington Post that the boy had been experiencing serious psychological difficulties "for months" before the shooting. He "was begging for help from everybody around him," she said. "The adults around him failed him."
The Times says Colin Gray "also told investigators that he had hunting rifles in the house." He said his son was "allowed to use them when supervised" but did not "have unfettered access to them." He added that Colt Gray had been trained in firearm safety, saying "he knows the seriousness of weapons and what they can do, and how to use them and not use them."
In a subsequent phone call, the Times reports, an investigator "assured the father he didn't think his son was being dishonest" and "encouraged him to make sure his son's identity had not been stolen." The sheriff's office closed the investigation after concluding it was unclear that Colt Gray was the source of the alleged threat. "Due to the inconsistent nature of the information received by the FBI," the report said, "the allegation that Colt or Colin is the user behind the Discord account that made the threat cannot be substantiated."
Jackson County Sheriff Janis Mangum told the Times "her office had investigated last year's threat thoroughly and taken the inquiry as far it could." It seems safe to assume that Colin Gray believed his son's denials, which were persuasive enough for investigators to decide that no further action was justified. It also seems safe to assume that Colin Gray, like the Crumbleys, did not recognize that his son was inclined to commit mass murder.
Prosecutors will have to make the case that Colin Gray's failure to predict that outcome was so egregious that it amounted to criminal negligence. In light of the Crumbley convictions, there seems to be a good chance that a jury will accept that proposition, especially if prosecutors can show that the father ignored the distress that Colt Gray's aunt described. But for every lonely, depressed, and angry teenager who decides to shoot up a high school, there are millions of others who will never do such a thing. Warning signs are always clear in retrospect, and people want to believe that teenagers bent on mass murder can be thwarted if only adults pay enough attention, take "red flags" seriously, and intervene before it is too late. However reassuring that belief might be, it does not justify sending a parent to prison because he never imagined his son was capable of such a horrifying crime.
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Didn't the father state that he bought the gun as a gift for his son? Sounds like a straw purchase, and holding someone responsible for the results of an illegal act is not all that far fetched.
I don't think that's what a straw purchase is. It's pretty definitely not illegal to buy a gun for someone (who can legally possess a firearm) as a gift.
. It’s pretty definitely not illegal to buy a gun for someone (who can legally possess a firearm) as a gift.
It is in my state if it's not a family member.
In the case at issue in the article, it was purchased as a gift for a family member.
I seem to recall that the father had already been visited by the FBI over his son's threats, etc. And the father said told the FBI that he was in possession of the guns and his son did not have access.
These statements will be used to establish that the father was aware of what his son would do with a gun and chose to provide a gun to his 14 year old despite knowing what he would do with it and his assurances to the FBI.
It is reasonable to assert that the father INTENDED the violence his son perpetrated. The son in this case is a disturbed teen USED as a weapon by the father. In a sense, the rifle is the weapon used by the son, the son was the weapon used by the father. The basis here is the same as if the father had hired an assassin to execute the murders.
That's not clear. It was the case, supposedly, in the Crumbley shooting. But parents purchasing a weapon on behalf of their child which is effectively theirs to use is not illegal. Even if it was, fuck off slavers who demand my weapons all be properly registered. That is, the ones that I didn't lose in an unfortunate boating accident.
Yep, you arm someone that doesn't have the mental capability to handle the arms - and that person kills someone with said arms... Yeah, you are partly responsible. And in our legal system, partly responsible is the same as 'responsible'.
Most 14-yr old are responsible enough not to intentionally shoot at others. The state should need to prove Colt was not responsible enough and that his Dad knew it. It should be a high bar for one person to be held responsible for another’s acts.
I seem to recall that the father had already been visited by the FBI over his son’s threats, etc. And the father said told the FBI that he was in possession of the guns and his son did not have access.
These statements will be used to establish that the father was aware of what his son would do with a gun and chose to provide a gun to his 14 year old despite knowing what he would do with it and his assurances to the FBI.
It's not illegal to buy a gun for your child.
Buying a gun as a bona fide gift for someone not prohibited from possessing guns is not a straw purchase.
https://www.tpatrialattorneys.com/straw-purchase-gun-law/#:~:text=Gifts%20and%20Exceptions,t%20considered%20a%20straw%20purchase.
Federal law prohibits the sale of guns to minors, but it does not prohibit minors from possessing long guns.
JD Vance speaking yesterday said that people have to accept the reality of school shootings. If that is the case parents better get used to the reality that if their kid shoots up a school, they will find themselves charged. If your kid, your spouse, your friend is having mental health issues you don't give them access to guns. That simple should not be that hard to understand.
That’s not what JD Vance said. That’s what the edited quote says.
I assume by 'edited quote' you mean the blatant lie manufactured by a global company?
Yes.
Like "DID YOU HEAR WHAT TRUMP JUST SAID?!?!?!?!?!
Nah, people are perfectly welcome to continue to deny reality.
First of all, what right does any citizen have to prevent another adult (spouse, friend, etc) from exercising a legal right? The idea of deputizing citizens to police others’ access to guns because they think that person’s mental health is bad (never mind holding them legally liable if they don’t) is a terrible idea.
I don’t think it’s nuts to enact legislation criminalizing failure to secure or negligently providing access to weapons, but 1) it should actually be legislated, not just made up by lawyers charging people with marginally relevant stuff to try to make it stick when it’s not actually a crime and 2) people (including parents) should be charged with crimes they actually commit, not crimes they fail to prevent other people from committing (even their kids).
As I have often stated, the Constitution gives you the right to own a firearm, the Constitution does not say that is a good idea for you to have a firearm. People should not be afraid or reluctant to speak to people in their lives and to tell them hard things. That may include telling a person that having a gun is not a good idea for them. Simple as that.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Yes, they thought it was such a bad idea to own guns that they considered gun ownership to be one of the bedrock pillars of a free country and enshrined it into the bill of rights purely on accident.
I really hope you're a teenager with the level of critical thinking you display on a daily basis.
I mean, that preamble is literally saying that it is a good idea for people to own guns.
I swear M4E has to be trolling us here. No one is that clueless.
That dude is ALWAYS trolling. His entire shtick is concern troll, and always has been as far as I could tell.
"Simple as that."
No it isn't. You are arguing that people do more than "tell people hard things" because you are suggesting that people be charged with crimes for failure to stop another adult from doing a bad thing.
Let's all remember that M4E really, really wants people informing on each other according to the whims of our government. And if they won't do it, M4E will charge them with crimes.
Simple as what, exactly? What are you actually proposing? I mean, as long as you agree that people have no right to interfere with the Constitutional rights of other adults and no liability for failing to do so, I would say that yeah, if you genuinely believe a loved one is a danger to themselves or others you probably ought to talk to them about it and should probably refrain from showering them with firearms. But that has nothing to do with whether people should be charged with crimes for failing to prevent crimes committed by others. Nor do people have any right to interfere with others’ rights because they think exercising those rights might be a bad idea.
Whether people like parents should be charged is a reasonable question for debate. I am not advocating either way, but rather seeing that this will be the reality. People are no longer willing to accept the statement "bad things just happen". People are angry and cops that refuse to engage an active shooter and parents of shooter will find themselves the target of that anger.
“People are angry “
That seems like a sound reason to prosecute someone.
We’d save a lot of money if we just brought back lynching, right?
“the Constitution gives you the right to own a firearm”
No, you sniveling fuck, it does not give us any rights. It quite literally tells the government it can’t shit on our natural rights. Hence language like “Congress shall make no law” and “Shall not be infringed”.
Why do you fucks have such a hard time with the English language?
How does one qualify to be able to judge another’s mental health?
This is a mentally and emotionally disturbed teen, not an adult who has the right to own a firearm.
The father had already been visited by the FBI over his son’s threats, etc. And the father told the FBI that he was in possession of the guns and his son did not have access to them unsupervised.
These statements will be used to establish that the father was aware of what his son would do with a gun and chose to provide a gun to his 14 year old despite knowing what he would do with it and his assurances to the FBI.
So we need more laws?
You drive your friend to a convinience store. He goes in, unbeknownst to you he robs the place. Guess who else is getting in trouble with the law.
Bottom line, the father supplied arms to someone that was not capable of handling the responsibility of the arms. That individual killed 4.
Are you trying to say the father should be able to walk away saying - its not my fault its kid's fault alone?
Note: the father is being charged with manslaughter - not murder because he had no intention of killing.
Are you trying to say the father should be able to walk away saying – its not my fault its kid’s fault alone?
Absolutely, with the facts at hand.
If you charge someone other than the driver for vehicular manslaughter, you need to prove they encouraged the driver to drive and knew that the driver was too drunk to drive. Did the father encourage the kid to shoot people and know his kid was mentally ill enough to go do it? Seems improbable, and I very much doubt they can prove that in court.
If 14 year old kids don't have any agency, it's amazing how often they don't do as they are told.
ok, if your 14 year old takes your keys and your car without your knowledge or consent, you have a point.
If you BUY your 14 year old a car, give him the keys, a gas card, a bottle of vodka, and send him off to do whatever, you do NOT have a point.
^ fed
^retard
^asshole
Tell me you're a headline-only lowfo voter without telling me you're a headline-only lowfo voter.
And that you intentionally source your "news."
You should fix this misquote. This is not what Vance said, and you know it.
You are free to express any opinion here, but I absolutely take exception to intentional misquotes. It’s a form of lying.
But lying is good misinformation. Or do the cool kids call it "anti-misinformation"?
"JD Vance speaking yesterday said that people have to accept the reality of school shootings"
.
The only thing you are moderate on is your adherence to the truth.
Provide the quote. Not a cut off piece, the entire sentence.
I think CAP laws can be reasonable, but I really don’t think this trend of trying to charge parents with their teenagers’ crimes is a good idea. If you want to criminalize negligent failure to secure/prevent access to firearms, then actually do so through legislation, don’t try to fake it by abusing the courts.
You misunderstand the purpose of good laws. Our better over at Volokh knows what's cooking:
I can’t agree with your application of this idea to this case. I would agree that every single thing you might negligently do (or fail to do) that results in injury, death, etc. doesn’t need to be enumerated in the law in order for the law to be understood and applied. However, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to twist existing laws to criminalize conduct which isn’t against the law because you think it *should* be against the law. If we’re going to hold people criminally liable for preventing other people’s crimes, that should be legislated, not just shoehorned into laws which are generally understood to apply to one’s own criminal actions. Of course, they might get a judge and jury that will let them do it, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or healthy for the citizenry to normalize people being charged with crimes that aren’t clearly crimes under existing law.
Of course, they might get a judge and jury that will let them do it,
especially in today's environ.... just think how much more they could go after certain 'adversaries'
This is activist prosecution. The goal is gun control through fear. Fear that if you have kids and own guns you will be treated as a criminal.
If so, why aren't they arresting thousands of black parents en masse?
Because that would be dangerous.
How would it be dangerous?
And this did happen to Deja Taylor.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/deja-taylor-sentenced-mother-6-year-old-shot-virginia-teacher-abby-zwerner-child-neglect/
Were you simply not born yet in 1992? And that was just one of the bigger riots that was totally uncontrolled. There are plenty of them to pick from in just the past ten years if you're under the age of 32.
And raciss!
It certainly seems that way.
I do think the theory that school shooters have replaced serial killers (IE, as a media motivated murder phenomenon) is interesting. Not sure I believe that, but there's obviously some merit to the idea that these school shootings are happening from a "monkey see, monkey do" motivation.
Kids are on more mind altering drugs today than they have ever been in human history. It's probably not a coincidence that a lot of school shooters turn out to be kids on antipsychotic medications.
Yeah there's that. We're raising generations of mostly boys who never had the opportunity to develop outside a drug induced haze. I really have no idea if that has any relevance here but it seems like a question worth some serious consideration.
a lot of school shooters turn out to be kids on antipsychotic medications.
It's not just "a lot". Almost ALL school shooters have a history with psychiatric medications.
It absolutely is a political move. Hell, there's no way the cops can wrap up a proper investigation of something like this in a day. Yet the prosecutors already know enough to file formal charges on the parents. The legal system doesn't move that fast. What's the rush? No one is going anywhere.
The police were at a significant advantage and head start on this investigation since the father had already been visited by the FBI over his son’s threats, etc. And the father said told the FBI that he was in possession of the guns and his son did not have access.
The father was fully aware of what his son would do with a gun and had admitted as much to the FBI and chose to provide a gun to his 14 year old despite knowing what he would do with it and his assurances to the FBI.
I predict conviction.
The ins and outs of lawyers quibbling over this are silly enough; there's not a law in existence which was not designed to be as vague as possible, and most lawyers and especially judges applaud this, because it lets judges apply what the law means, or should mean, under whatever circumstances the lawyers and judges perceive to matter.
What I do find find interesting is the amount of quibbling by Jacob Sullum here over twisting the law to their heart's content, yet complaining about the same twisting other times.
Jacob, buddy, be consistent, please. Trying to keep all those distinctionless differences in separate cranial compartments has got to hurt.
What I do find find interesting is the amount of quibbling by Jacob Sullum here over twisting the law to their heart’s content, yet complaining about the same twisting other times.
And Sullum seemingly being fine with all of the "law twisting" that was done to prosecute Trump.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/05/us/colt-gray-suspect-georgia-shooter/index.html
Troon violence is a pandemic that must be stopped, but I"m not sure arresting the dad is the solution. Arresting teachers on the other hand...
While I certainly don't trust the news, it seems one of the things the kid was mad about was trans acceptance not that he was trans himself.
I mean, maybe he was, but as far as we know that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd be more likely to bet his father was...inarticulately against the trans movement shall we say.
Not that I'm in favor of the movement, in fact I think it's pretty gross, but my reasons for that are largely that trans people are being treated as a political football instead of trying to get them effective help that doesn't irrevocably ruin their lives. I'd love to see a study on how many transitioners(?) end up in the porn industry, for example.
I've met rather a lot of people who rabidly hate trans people, and while I can see where they're coming from it's just the same gross collectivist garbage that the left engages in just with a different target.
I'd suspect the father is probably one of those types, but that is total supposition on my part. The words of the son are frequently the thoughts of the father.
Notably, thinking that isn't actually illegal...yet...but I also don't see how hatred of trans people could possibly result in a kid shooting up people who are not trans either.
There seems to be no real tangible connection there. Seems like a pretty clear cut case of a depressed and mentally unstable kid looking for their moment of fame using nonsense justifications because the kid is crazy.
As for this particular incident, someone is responsible. Children don't become adults the instant a clock ticks midnight on some arbitrary birthday. There's a period between parents being 100% responsible for supervising their children and children being 100% responsible for their own actions, and there are unforeseeable actions which no one can be reasonably responsible for.
A two year old can wander into the kitchen at night and turn the stove on and start a fire. Does anyone think jail for anyone is the proper response?
This shooter is 14; does anyone actually think he bears the same responsibility as he would at age 20 or 30?
Was the father supposed to lock his son in his room at night? Lots and lots of 14-year olds have guns in their rooms, and they don't shoot up schools.
It's just a fucking mess. JD was right; you cannot stop this, you can only deal with it.
I suggest the core of the problem is the infantilizing of children long past the age they should be growing up. It is inhumane to expect rowdy teenagers to stay in school into their 20s. 18 is bad enough, studying topics they will not remember past the tests, when they could be learning real job skills in part time jobs. How many people remember anything at all from any English class? How many remember any algebra, geometry, trigonometry, or calculus, let alone use it?
No doubt this 14-year old will be charged as an adult. Too bad the system can't be charged right along with him for not letting him learn about life as an adult.
Children used to work actual jobs that your average adult would refuse to do today. For thousands of years.
Just consider that for a moment and think about what is said of the very same age cohort today.
If he is being charged as an adult, his father should not be charged with the same crime (maybe an accomplice or whatever).
If he is being charged as a juvenile, then it's very reasonabe for the father to be charged
They should both be charged as adults you moron.
It is reasonable to assert that the father INTENDED the violence his son perpetrated. After all he had told the FBI previously that he kept his guns secured and did not provide his mentally/emotional disturbed son unsupervised access.
The son in this case is a disturbed teen USED as a weapon by the father. In a sense, the rifle is the weapon used by the son, the son was the weapon used by the father.
The basis here is the same as if the father had hired an assassin to execute the murders. Both the person commissioning the murders and the person executing the murders can be charged as adults.
But not every 14 year old is given a firearm the year after a visit from the FBI saying "We believe your child has made threats of mass murder in a public forum".
I don't know that charging the father is the right move, but his actions do seem remarkably fucking retarded.
Threats that were taken so seriously that the kid basically saying 'nuh uh' was good enough for the FBI to drop the whole thing. It would seem the FBI didn't really take it all that seriously, so why should the father?
Also, isn't this the same FBI that's beclowned themselves for years that we regularly say not to trust in just about any situation? The fact they happen to be accidentally right in this case but still totally dropped the ball seems relevant.
I mean, yes? I’m not a parent, but I’d like to think that in that situation I’d put a lot of effort into figuring out what was going on with my kid. Just because the FBI utterly fucked up as well isn’t a reason to think that the father may not have also made a serious tactical error here. And while I may not trust the FBI further than I could drag J. Edgar Hoover’s corpse, having them show up with that sort of tale would still be motivation for a major Come to Jesus moment with the kid.
Have you heard of Operation Ceasefire? (I heard about it from one of the regulars here, I think.)
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/how-the-gun-control-debate-ignores-black-lives/80445/
Identify the small groups of young men most likely to shoot or be shot. Call them in to meet face-to-face with police brass, former gang members, clergy and social workers. Explain to the invitees that they were at high risk of dying. Promise an immediate crackdown on every member of the next group that put a body on the ground — and immediate assistance for everyone who wanted help turning their lives around. Then follow up on those promises.
It doesn't look like there was a Ceasefire program which the FBI or Graham could've turned to for help.
Knowledge of Operation Ceasefire needs to go viral!
I have heard of them, actually. I think it's an excellent idea.
The FBI had no further recourse at the time. We all know they would have taken the guns if they could. They (and the ATF) are not shy about that.
"the FBI saying “We believe your child has made threats..."
So there was an accusation that the child denied. Absent the FBI giving the father specific evidence to back up the accusation, this absolutely should not be enough to create criminal liability on the part of the father.
Civil liability is potentially a different matter.
The teachers who groomed him to trannyfy himself are to blame.
Your fellow travelers on Twitter are not just cheering this on, but cheering quite loudly.
I have no idea whether the father is guilty of something (well apparently he's certainly guilty of questionable marriage and child having decisions). But he's not guilty of murder in any way shape or form. I wish people would realize that some slopes really are slippery.
But for every lonely, depressed, and angry teenager who decides to shoot up a high school, there are millions of others who will never do such a thing.
This is the real key. Millions of kids have trouble up-bringings, or have parents in and out of jail, or parents going through a messy separation like this. Kids will say edgy things to get attention as well. It's unpredictable, and parents are simply incapable of exerting perfect control over their children, so what is their level of moral culpability?
But actual school shooters are such a vanishingly rare phenomenon. There's no criteria or risk factor that they meet that isn't met by over 25% of the school population. Are you going to prevent any of those parents from owning firearms legally on the chance that their children might gain access to them and shoot up a school?
Like, take this aunt for instance. She claims her nephew was "begging for help" from everyone around him. So what the fuck did she do about this? If she's such a prognosticator that she knew this would end in violence, did she call CPS? Did she call the school? Did she call the police? Who else supposedly saw all these cries for help and failed to act? How many people do you think should be arrested for their failure to act, just the dad, or dozens of people including teachers and police?
Given that the son told the FBI he wouldn't even joke about such a thing, and the father believed this, then why has he committed a legal failing?
The goal here is judicial activism, using the passion of the moment, capitalizing on a tragedy to push crappy policy. Yes, bad kids are a terrible thing and perhaps moral outrage at the father is justified. Legal responsibility is not justified.
Like, take this aunt for instance. She claims her nephew was “begging for help” from everyone around him. So what the fuck did she do about this? If she’s such a prognosticator that she knew this would end in violence, did she call CPS? Did she call the school? Did she call the police? Who else supposedly saw all these cries for help and failed to act? How many people do you think should be arrested for their failure to act, just the dad, or dozens of people including teachers and police?
This is indeed the crux of the issue.
If the father is guilty for simply owning a gun, they have found the backdoor they have been looking for. They are looking to charge someone with something, and this guy was nearby.
I can think of lots of reasons why the guy might have done the things he did, but it seems improbable the bought the gun knowing his child was going to go murder people with it.
As you say, millions of people have the same issues and don't then go on to murder anyone. No one expects their kid to be the one in a million. (More like one in 55 million, if we're honest.)
The father already owned guns. the father purchased a new gun and gave it to the disturbed teen. He specifically assured the FBI he would NOT do that due to his son's threating posts, etc.
This is not a gun ownership issue.
The 14 year old was not legal able to purchase a gun. The gun was purchased by the father specifically for the purpose of providing it to his son. After he assured the FBI he would do no such thing.
Pretty hard to assert ignorance here.
It seems being a tranny is a pretty big red flag
She claims her nephew was “begging for help” from everyone around him. So what the fuck did she do about this?
She lives in Florida. There are a number of neighbors who called social services on the family – though it seems mostly the mother. The father knew his kid was being bullied in middle school – which was the threat that brought whoever out to the house - an dis possibly why his dad used guns as a way to release anger about that. What would change as a freshman in high school? The father was verbally abusive to the kid. The mother is obviously a total clusterfuck. The aunt’s right to say there are red flags all over. But ‘mental health’ is not taken seriously – and taking a kid out of a dysfunctional home (even as a break) is probably taken too seriously.
Family services workers are too busy breaking up healthy families for specious reasons to be bothered with households that really are clusterfucks.
Mental health is not taken seriously because the discipline is full of mysticism, magical thinking, and pseudoscience bunk. Researchers in the field of psychology and psychiatry are horrible at statistics, with a lot of studies that are just pure p-hacking, or persistently tweaking variables until they create the desired outcome. The entire discipline is very unscientific, trying to reinforce basic assumptions rather than trying to start from a position of addressing the unknown.
If you've heard of a famous psychological experiment, it's probably one that was complete bullshit, with bullshit outcomes, manipulated data, or just a failure to record any data at all because it was pure LARP (the Stanford Prison experiment). And there's no replicability for any of it. Fuck tons of it are just driven by pure politics without studies, like gender affirming care, or recent ideological nonsense I've seen where it's considered harmful to try to convince your friends to exercise with you. So yes, I'm going to reject almost anything I'm told by any "mental health professional."
Does this mean I entirely reject the idea of seeing to someone's mental well-being? No. But I've decided SSRIs do more harm than good, and that there's no perfect data.
If mental health professionals want to be taken seriously, they should start acting seriously. It's a field that's mostly full of people trying to figure out what went wrong in their own lives who are poorly suited to figuring out what's wrong with anyone else's lives.
I'm not saying therapy can't help people, but as a 'science' it's mostly bunk.
Look into the 'transablist' movement. They will cut off your perfectly functional arm to better fit your 'identity' as a disabled person.
Not to say that there aren't scientifically minded psychologists who do good work, but it's hard to ignore that by and large those are the exceptions to the rule.
Mental health professionals who are "scientifically minded" and reality-based are forced to hide that to avoid being cancelled and run out of the profession.
This
And what part of this description let's the father off the hook? Nothing.
I truly would like to see the same kind of data analysis on school shootings that they give to airplane saftey – you know … its safer to travel by plane than drive to the corner store… type stuff.
If it came out that the outcome was similar (i’d suspect it would) that would be a nice juxtaposition in an activist news media interview to interject.
"Its safer for your kid to go to school than to be in a car with their mother parallel parking..."
“Your child is more likely to die from 2 consecutive lightening strikes followed by a bear mauling than to die in a school shooting”
Statistically, the place children are most likely to be victims of violence is at home, with parents being the primary perpetrators. Other than parents, the most dangerous person in the lives of US children is Mom's Boyfriend.
I’ll just leave this right here.
https://hwfo.substack.com/p/scared-of-grade-school-shooters-dont
THATS the analysis I was looking for! Thank you!
Government Almighty makes no distinctions between the responsible and the irresponsible. Since the irresponsible behave badly with guns and drugs, we ALL can't have guns or drugs. Since pets and wildlife poop and pee irresponsibly, in pubic, adult humans will need to wear diapers ass well!
So we may soon need to ALL wear diapers, and ALSO be enslaved changing dirty wildlife diapers! YOUR wildlife pooped in pubic? We will punish YOU!!!!
Government Almighty HAS SPOKEN, peons!!! All Hail Government Almighty!!!
'The case is another example of stretching criminal laws to hold parents accountable for their children's violence.'
Abortion would have avoided this problem!
- Paid for by your local DNC chapter
Can it be legally sound to determine the mechanical actions the father took are illegal only dependant on what the child does at a future date?
Is the crime unsecured guns? Or unsecured guns that were unwilling (by the father) used in a crime?
If it is the second... the an innocent person can become guilty merely by the action of another person. How is this just?
If it is the second... we have selective prosecution because there are millions of parents with guns likely secured in similar fashion in homes with teens who are not being charged for committing the same actions as the father.
Yeah it's seems that they've invented a novel pre crime, acts that the father did or failed to do, in order to charge him with an actual crime that someone else committed. This does indeed look like a slippery slope that could take us to some dangerous places. I could see a civil claim or even a criminal charge of some sort of negligence with a supporting statute. But murder charges are a bridge way too far.
Its a cope by society in general and the legal system specifically in response to the fact that society officially does not endorse morality and ethics and prioritize healthy family. They dont want a religiously educated people who are weekly schooled and\or reminded of moral an ethical values and goals. People are supposed to get their values from those portrayals in popular media or those given by their teachers and professors. And these events are harbingers of the endpoint of such a vacuous substitution.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”.
John Adams
Unmoor people from their religions,(actively root out religiously informed politicians and\or civic actions), their civics (stop teaching civics and the constitution), their bond with each other (online culture) and you get a society with spiritual and moral Alzheimer’s .
Our betters dont want to go back to any kind of non-psychiatry or social science sanctioned morality or ethics so they have to deal with dysfunctions resulting from societal disintigration. This is the only tool in their toolbox – its a hammer and they name everything they come up against a nail.
All of your defenses here are based on the father being unaware of the issue. This is clearly not true and so clearly so he told the FBI he would NOT provide his son a gun unsupervised.
Yeah, after the Robert Card and Thomas Crooks fiasco, I’ll need to see some proof that the FBI did their due diligence on this kid. How is it that Britain can track down randos who post right wing memes and send them to jail, but the FBI can’t determine discord account ownership? Did they consider all evidence and testimony? They didn’t speak to the aunt, who insist the kid had psychological issues?
Sayonara – No, I didn’t just write that, because I don’t speak Japanese. That’s good enough for….. the FBI? Does the agency employ profilers who can detect patterns and behaviors of criminals, or did 90’s tv shows lie to me?
The school supposedly got a phone call alerting them to a possible shooting. Why didn’t they lock down then? The school admin HAD to know that one of their students was interviewed by the FBI.
Someone in government dropped the ball. That’s been the pattern, the fact of life in this country. Can someone tell me how illegal Venezuelan gangs got guns and are roaming around our apartments? Hey I’m down with gun laws that forbid illegals from owning guns. Oh, we have that already you say. Well I guess Biden fucked up again.
How is it that Britain can track down randos who post right wing memes and send them to jail, but the FBI can’t determine discord account ownership?
Britain is a near police state that occupies an island about the size of Oregon, so really not that surprising at all.
Jakey Jakey his news is fakey.
This wasn’t just about the purchase of the gun.
But first, let’s talk about Crumbley – and why it’s not comparable to Gray’s situation.
Crumbley was held accountable essentially on the premise that she was a bad, neglectful mother who arguably would have recognized signs of trouble on the horizon had she gave a damn about her kid.
Gray, on the other hand, had those signs explicitly pointed out to him by social services and the FBI, openly admitting to being aware of other signs, and then decided that was the best time to go out and buy him a rifle.
The FBI didn’t have enough to go on beyond the anonymous Discord tips – ““Due to the inconsistent nature of the information received by the FBI,” the report said, “the allegation that Colt or Colin is the user behind the Discord account that made the threat cannot be substantiated.” – but what Fake Jake News doesn’t tell you is that “the inconsistent nature of the information” was due to the Discord logins bouncing around from place to place. (Which, if you have a brain that’s bigger than Jake’s – and that’s not a high bar to clear because he’s a moron- you’ll immediately realize is almost certainly due to use of a VPN.)
Gray also acknowledged that he knew his kid was the target of bullying and ridicule. And probably a bit of a twink, and made zero effort to try and address either his kid’s burgeoning LGBT mental disorder or the bullying.
Also, it should be noted that Gray’s father-in-law is on record claiming that Gray was abusive towards both Cole and his mother (who, by the way, is a crackhead and criminal recidivist), enough to garner the attention of child services, and Gray himself noted that the family situation had been particularly hard on his kid.
So, you’re abusive towards a kid, he comes from a rough home, he’s the object of ridicule at school, he’s falling prey to LGBT grooming, you literally got a visit from CPS and the FBI – and your next step is to go buy the kid an AR-15.
I mean, really?
All the warning signs are there in blazing neon, the FBI tells you he’s on their radar – so you go buy him the tool he needs to do something very predictable and have been warned to watch out for? So, while I don’t necessarily agree with the charges – I certainly don’t think Crumbley’s conduct is comparable to Gray’s just absolutely ridiculous decision making; and I think it’s an entirely valid question of whether said decision making translates into any legal culpability.
I mean, at the risk of oversimplifying:
“We think your kid might shoot up a school.”
“Yea, he’s had it rough lately.”
“Well, anyway, thought you should know.”
“Thanks. Well, I’m off to buy him a gun now.”
I mean, come on.
Fact is there were already guns in the house completely separate from this gun in particular, so the notion that buying one more 'for the kid' that was probably kept in the same place as all the rest of the guns likely wouldn't make any difference.
Now, clearly the kid had access to where those guns were stored which is also stupid but frankly not illegal.
In fact, one would be pretty hard pressed to find any particular statute that was actually violated hence the stretching of existing statute that doesn't really fit this situation by any reasonable measure.
Basically the prosecutor wants to charge the dad under CAP law's that don't exist and since they can't they're making one up. This smells like ex post facto without the formality of even writing an ex post facto law. It's more like the whim of the King.
Now, clearly the kid had access to where those guns were stored which is also stupid but frankly not illegal.
See, I find that detail troublesome to accept, because dad told the feds that all his guns were inaccessible to junior. But the AR-15 bought at Christmastime isn’t described as another of “his” guns – but rather, one specifically for the kid. Was it stored differently? We have only speculation to determine.
My point is that this is entirely distinct from aloof mom who cared more about herself than her kid. This is, “I know my kid is troubled, federal agents have told me they’re suspicious, so let’s get him a gun.” I don’t think it’s an apples to apples comparison, insofar as a basis for charging a parent for a kid's shooting spree.
If true I'd personally say the father is kind of an idiot, but a criminal idiot is far harder to prove.
You aren't necessarily wrong that they aren't terribly comparable, but neither seem to rise to criminal activity as written.
Agreed. Truth be, I'm more inclined to press charges against the people who started grooming him into the LBGP/transgender insanity. They are doing so much damage to American youth, and it keeps manifesting itself in murder, suicide, and murder/suicide (and usually against young people). It's long past time to put a stop to it... to them all.
God's Own Prohibitionist hath spracht!
You have no idea where you are right now, or what you're even replying to, do you.
What do you mean, AT?! He's on the Internet!
Other than that, no. No he does not.
Let's see, if you establish that the father had reason to know what was likely to happen ... and that is established by his interview with the FBI.
And you establish that he took specific action to make that outcome possible and likely by doing the exact opposite of his assurances to the FBI.
I assert that the father is in the same position as one who contracts for murder and the son is in the same position as a hired assassin. The father should spend life in jail and the son will probably end up in a juvenile mental facility.
Howcum no girls, or 1000 times fewer girls, vote for Orange Hitler or shoot up government schoolz?
Yes, this was a horrible incident. But the father is liable for ordinary negligence, at best. Negligence cases belong in the civil courts. Save criminal courts for those cases where the dark hearted perp has intent to cause harm. The father's error of judgment about his son was just that, an error. Nothing malicious, nothing reckless.
Stare Decisis, do you take this doctrine to be your lawful wedded Mens Rea?
If a kid threatens to shoot up a school and you then buy him a gun, yes, I think you have some liability when he actually does it.
Parents should have some responsibility for raising their children not to be a psychopath, and if they do, then they need to recognize he's a psychopath and do something about it.
What I wonder about is why after one of these crimes people aren't asking questions about the medical history of the shooter -- especially if they are young. Having just read one of the journals written by the Covenant School shooter, it is absolutely clear as can be that we will get nowhere talking about gun laws. That killer's mind was wracked with pain and misery for 5 years while she planned her massacre. Getting the guns was merely the very last step.
If we're going to make any progress curbing these crimes, we have to get serious about better understanding mental health, especially drug therapies. There IS a pattern here, and I suspect it runs straight through psychoactive drug therapies.
There ya go! Indict Reefer Madness!! Insulin fiends!!
Our news has reported that the boy WILL be charged as an adult. If so, then his father isn't guilty of anything. Either the boy is an adult, fully capable and responsible for his decisions and his father is no more guilty of anything than any random stranger, or the kid is a kid and maybe his father is somewhat complicit.
CB
The father is apparently an idiot. He carries some blame.
Good point.
If idiocy is a crime, we're gonna need more prisons.
We definitely need more prisons. Reason whines about "over-incarceration", but we UNDER-incarcerate—we have tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of violent thugs who should be in prison but aren't.
The case against the parent in the Georgia case seems stronger than the Michigan case. The shooter was investigated by the FBI just last year, and the shooter's father still provided him a gun. Even lacking a specific law, criminal negligence could apply.
"A Georgia Teenager Killed 4 People at His High School. Why Is His Father Charged With Murder?"
Why not?
The more, the merrier.
Are there any prosecutions of ghetto moms for this type of crime that can serve as precedent?
I know of Deja Taylor, but she plead guilty so there wasn't an argument of what the legal standard is.
96% of all voting fathers vote for the force-initiating Kleptocracy. They merely taught their kids to value that good thing they themselves value. You wouldn't want them voting libertarian, right?
I see the difference between the MI and GA cases as the difference between having a dog that escapes your enclosed yard and attacks someone vs turning your pitbulls loose to roam the neighborhood