She Only Served 10 Months Behind Bars. Florida Still Slapped Her With A $127,000 Bill.

Under Florida's "pay-to-stay" law, inmates are charged $50 for every day of their sentence—including time they never spent incarcerated.

Imagine you've just been released from prison in Florida. You have every intention of turning your life around. You plan to stay out of trouble, get a job, and follow the rules of your parole. Then, you find out you owe a six-figure bill.

In Florida—and most other states—inmates are charged for the costs of their time in prison. The practice, called "pay-to-stay," leaves many former offenders with staggering debt. 

In Florida, prisoners are charged $50 for every day of their original sentence—meaning they keep getting charged, even if they are released early. When former inmates inevitably fail to pay this massive bill, it can prevent them from ever moving on from their period spent behind bars.

"Where I'm at today, I'm truly being stopped by one single barrier and it is a dollar sign," Shelby Hoffman told WFTS Tampa Bay, a local news station. Hoffman was hit with a $127,000 bill for a 7-year prison sentence—even though she only served 10 months. Since her release from prison, Hoffman has gotten clean and rebuilt her life. She's soon to graduate with a bachelor's degree. However, she can't start her dream career as a case manager because of her outstanding pay-to-stay bill.

"I've been out of prison 7.5 years at this point," Hoffman added. "When I have trekked so hard to get a track record that I have now, and you are imposing something that I can't pay off in a lifetime, so I am stuck . . . I have a family now, I have a daughter, a wonderful husband, I have a home, I have all these accomplishments I've worked so hard, so hard to maintain."

Pay-to-stay fines end up following people like Hoffman long after they've left prison, trapping them in insurmountable debt. Not only is this practice cruel, but it obviously has little utility beyond the extended punishment of ex-offenders.

"Asking those caught up in our criminal legal system to support government agencies is an inefficient way for the government to raise revenue," Lauren-Brooke Eisen wrote last year in Human Rights, the American Bar Association's magazine. "Because many low-income people can't pay their debt, billions of dollars in fines and fees go unpaid every year.

"We think it's unconstitutional," Lisa Foster, Co-Executive Director of the Fines & Fees Justice Center, told WFTS Tampa Bay. "It's not proportionate either to the underlying offense or to a person's financial circumstances."

Even so, pay-to-stay laws stay undisturbed in most states, leaving former offenders like Hoffman trapped, no matter how much they do to rebuild their lives.

"I had a mindset, because my dad was a federal prison guard, that you do the crime, you know, you do the time," Hoffman's grandmother told WFTS Tampa Bay. "But when I actually lived through this, I thought this is not the way it is, there is no compassion shown to anybody who makes a mistake and pays the price for it. And she did."

Comments

[Gaear Grimsrud]

The entire criminal justice system is an extortion racket from traffic court on up.

[Augustine]

As we make poor people pay for their own prison while we build free sports stadiums for billionaires.

[Longtobefree]

Just for the record, Florida has no state income tax - - - - - - - - - -

[CLM1227]

^ seems relevant. On top of that, a whole bunch of amenities that are deemed inhumane to refuse. How do you pay for it? Maybe an audit and oversight is necessary, but the scheme isn’t a bad one.

[Jerry B.]

Shouldn’t Biden be willing to issue an executive order forgiving this debt? I know it’s a state issue, but that doesn’t seem to matter to him.

[Michael Ejercito]

What crime did she commit?

[SQRLSY One]

Un-authorized blowment upon a cheap plastic flute! See post below...

[MasterThief]

That's the $127k question. I feel like if the original sentence was unjust that the crime would be noted. I'm not upset that someone who gets out of prison early still has to pay all the associated fees that come with the sentence. $50/day seems like a bit, but I do wonder how much it actually costs to hold prisoners. At least it takes some of the burden off of taxpayers.
Of course, it's worth reiterating that I only say this under the presumption that laws and sentences are fair and just

[mad.casual]

The $127K for 7 yrs. comes out to $18K a year, which, to me, fits squarely between the uprights of being both below the poverty line but not tortuously unlivable (especially with no car, insurance, home/rent, etc.)

I can abso-fucking-lutely agree that if she only spent ~300 days in it should only be on the hook for ~$1500 but, that's not Emma's take.

[MasterThief]

Good points. I was thinking of only housing costs rather than all living expenses. That makes it a little more reasonable especially if they are able to earn something while in.
I'm most concerned about whether our laws are just, faithfully implemented, and penalties are reasonable. If her crime is worth a social debt of 7 years and/or $127k then I think she's still on the hook for the balance even if it's determined that she can safely rejoin society earlier. That puts her at around a maximum of 3 or 4 years of earnings to repay her 7 year debt. Let those payments be from pre-tax earnings, interest free, and balanced to a sustainable minimum amount.
Paying for your prior prison stint gives a hell of a good reason to not recommit.

[mad.casual]

If her crime is worth a social debt of 7 years and/or $127k then I think she’s still on the hook for the balance even if it’s determined that she can safely rejoin society earlier.

The question of the underlying crime absolutely has merit. If she was convicted of arson because she burned down a $1M building, $127K seems more than equitable or at least not completely incoherent, even if she was drunk or whatever.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

Little Emma, along with the rest of the Reason staff, frequently leaves out core information. This makes me very distrustful of this story.

[jimc5499]

Notice how she had Florida in the headline, but the second paragraph said that most States have a similar program. I guess Reason has a hard on for Florida.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

They’ve got to take a swipe at DeSantis. And a cheap shot at that. I’m sure little Emma, like the rest of the Reason leftists, seethes at the mention of his name.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I'm not sure it even matters. She's being charged $50/day when she's not even in jail. What would the rationale be for charging her any money at all if she is not even in jail, regardless of her crime?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Because, fuck you, that’s why.

[Michael Ejercito]

It is called a fine.

[Zeb]

No, in this case it is not called a fine.

[Liberty_Belle]

Didn't that whole Germany thing teach us what happens when you are overly punitive ? I mean, getting a freshly released inmate and slapping them with $127k bill upon leaving seems like asking for recidivism at best.

I mean, I agree inmates should pay for their stay , but isn't that what slave labor ... I mean, "Inmate Work Programs" are for ?

[A nerdy Fred]

Burglary and pawning a stolen object. Opiate addiction, black market prices, the usual story.

$127,000 strikes me as an excessive fine under the 8th Amendment.

[MasterThief]

There we go. I would agree that the sentence is unreasonable depending on the actual damages. I'm more concerned about whether the sentence is just instead of being upset over her being responsible for the full terms of the sentence

[Kyol]

From the article that Reason linked to: "After turning 18, she was charged for pawning a stolen item and burglary."

[SQRLSY One]

How else are we gonna protect us all from medical-device-abusing FIENDS, and DANGEROUS un-prescribed medical devices of mass murder and mayhem, if'n we do not PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH evil violators to the full extent of the law, and then make them PAY for their sins AND their punish-shit-mints for said sins?

To find precise details on what NOT to do, to avoid the flute police, please see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/DONT_DO_THIS/ … This has been a pubic service, courtesy of the Church of SQRLS!

[GroundTruth]

How the hell does pay-to-stay even pass constitutional muster? Seems like double jeopardy to me to lock some one up, then send them a bill for room and board.

[mad.casual]

So locking someone up for a crime and billing them for their stay is an affront to The Constitution, Liberty, and natural rights to you, but locking someone up and *billing everyone else* for the crime is copacetic?

[GroundTruth]

Not saying that either, just trying to figure it out.

Expecting them to work to pay their way while they are locked up makes sense, but beyond that seems like a double whammy.

It has a sort of nastiness like the Soviets sending the bill for bullets to the executed's next of kin; cruelty for cruelty's sake.

[mad.casual]

AFAICT, the bill is hers, not her NOKs. The article indicates that much of the time the fines go simply unpaid.

I certainly agree that $127K for 7 yrs. when only 300 days were actually consumed is definitively excessive. The rest is between pollyanna-esque wishcasting and school marm idiocy from Emma "I was born yesterday!" Camp.

[Marc St. Stephen]

I was not aware of this .... so did the idea come from the Movie "Brazil" where targets of capture and interrogation are then billed for it, "Information Charging" I think the pol described it to the public as a new and wonderful cost-saving measure.

This does seem unconstitutional and counterproductive to rehabilitation ... and I think I'd rather be executed than face a six or seven figure bill if incarcerated.

[mad.casual]

so did the idea come from the Movie “Brazil” where targets of capture and interrogation are then billed for it

No stupid NPC. The mountain of things your thimble-full of intellect is not aware of is too exhaustive to cover. Suffice to say the idea came from the fact that it costs money to house people and suffer their crimes and removing those costs from them by foisting those costs onto taxpayers is the definitive opposite of rehabilitation.

In the far, far past, for The West (it's still done in some parts of the world even today) seemingly well outside your thimble-full of awareness the State would actually execute these people even for relatively trivial crimes, which actually is clearly unConstitutional, declare them as slaves to their victims, which, again, clearly unConstitutional, or take them as slaves to the State, again...

Given all of the above, the notion that "You have to pay for what you consume while you serve your punishment/rehabilitation." is unConstitutional sounds lot more like something the Constitution doesn't actually forbid or prevent and a lot more like retards blabbering about what they wish it meant. Which, if anything anywhere worked that way, would be exceptionally cruel to wish for the crimes to take place but that the criminals magically rehabilitate without having to pay for anything.

[Granite]

Mad casual, this is the dumbest fuck shit I’ve seen on here in a while. Your condescension and know it all demeanor are indicia of a small, elderly dick.

There are numerous constitutional arguments that could be shown to being violated, namely due process, cruel and unusual, equal protection and excessive fines clauses.

Gfy fag

[mad.casual]

There are constitutional arguments to be had. I even made one or two of the arguments that you point out above. Unfortunately, “Did the idea come from the movie ‘Brazil’?” and “It’s not rehabilitative.” are neither Constitutional nor even really arguments.

But it’s good that you came out of the woodwork in defense of morons who themselves didn’t read the article, the Constitution, or both, let alone understand either one. Otherwise, people might have falsely assumed you’d read and understood them as well.

Similarly, I don’t exactly understand the life experience and mindset that leads you to conceptualize peoples’ genitals from internet posts, but if picturing people on the internet with small, elderly dicks is a past time you frequently engage in, most people would keep that to themselves.

[Dan S.]

The cost of the criminal justice system - police, courts, prisons, the whole shebang - is one of the main costs of government usually seen as justifying the imposition of taxes. We don't charge "user fees" for the police or for most activity of the court system, and we shouldn't charge them for prisons either, at least not if we actually want former prisoners to ever become productive citizens.

[Social Justice is neither]

Usually there are work programs in prison that pay for the time actually served. Now if it's as reported and she's being charged for years outside incarceration then that's a real issue, but Emma lies so who knows.

[Roberta]

My understanding is that they also get paid for work they do while incarcerated. For those who are billed only for the time they’re in, doesn’t that pay for it?

If not, what do they do, show $0 in the bank for life, to avoid working for nothing? Keep everything off the books?

[A nerdy Fred]

Googling "Florida prison inmate pay" says most jobs are not paid at all, and the ones that are range from 20 to 50 a month.

[mad.casual]

Part of the problem is that people like Emma, but not Emma, feel that some forms of labor constitute slavery and/or torture and, thus, some states and prison systems are forbidden from imposing certain more valuable services and more generally are forbidden from making a profit or have their profits capped.

I'm not aware of the specific limits in FL or the case mentioned but, again, the problem isn't exactly with the system, it's with Emma and her peers' notion or depth of analysis along the lines of "Sure, somebody robbed a liquor store at gunpoint, but we made them do their own laundry for 3 mos. so that should cover it and they're rehabilitated, right?"

Paraphrasing:
Mjr. Cage: Well, what would you do if you believed everything I just told you?
Emma Camp: I would locate this...
Mjr. Cage: Pay-to-stay law...
Emma Camp: ... and bomb it out of existence.
Mjr. Cage: Then you're not mentally equipped to fight this thing and you never will be.

[Granite]

Your logic is a dumpster fire. Go play in traffic

[mad.casual]

Are you arguing in favor of slavery and against economics in earnest or did you just get tired of fantasizing about small, elderly penises?

[Dillinger]

better than a bill for the bullet?

[KiwiDude]

Better than being locked up, then found innocent, given compensation but taking off the cost of locking you up

[rbike]

My younger brother ended up in jail for six months for DUI #?. He spent the time in minimum security and was billed for expenses. Seemed fair to me but my parents complained about the cost. They may have chipped in, I don't know. My brother did claim to have a good time there as he played cards most of the time.

Brother met his now wife and she straightened him out.

[SQRLSY One]

Can she please spank me ass well? Me, and my 37 buddies from the local bar, we ALL need straightened out!!!

“And now spank ME!” “And now spank ME, too!” Repeat 35 more times…

#BelieveAllWhoSayThatTheyNeedSpankedGoodAndHard

[mad.casual]

Pay-to-stay fines end up following people like Hoffman long after they've left prison, trapping them in insurmountable debt. Not only is this practice cruel, but it obviously has little utility beyond the extended punishment of ex-offenders.

OMFG! LOL! IT WAS WRITTEN ON A LIBERTARIAN SITE! HOLY FUCKING SHIT! ROFLMAO! {GRABS RIBS} SHE MAY AS WELL HAVE JUST WRITTEN "FUCK YOU LAW ABIDING TAXPAYERS!" LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

[AT]

Since her release from prison, Hoffman has gotten clean and rebuilt her life. She's soon to graduate with a bachelor's degree. ... I have a family now, I have a daughter, a wonderful husband, I have a home, I have all these accomplishments I've worked so hard

None of that is relevant to the subject matter. Why include it?

For that matter, why DIDN'T you include WHY she had seven years? It's because she was a drug addicted burglar. To get seven years mean's it's at least felony second-degree. And they only imposed that because she couldn't keep clean when she was FIRST sentenced to rehab.

and you are imposing something that I can't pay off in a lifetime

Nonsense. Pick up a Dave Ramsey book, genuinely commit to resolving the debt, dump every luxury and comfort you have, and direct all that money to paying it off. If you're working two steady jobs (and, in this case, have boyfriend and grandma's help) - she's free and clear inside a few years.

Not only is this practice cruel, but it obviously has little utility beyond the extended punishment of ex-offenders.

$50/day x 365 = $18,250.

National average for housing an inmate in a state prison: $34,000.

You're not paying $50/day x Days Incarcerated as if it's to cover your own room and board. You're paying $50/day x Your Entire Sentence to offset the taxpayer burden of HAVING to house criminals AT ALL. Which, if said taxpayers had a say in things, would overwhelmingly suggest mitigating the costs by reducing it to the cost of a length of rope and a mass grave. (So consider yourself lucky - especially since the only thing taxpayers are getting in return for your early freedom is yet another social worker that's more prone than others to drug relapse.)

It's part of your debt to society. You know it's there when you decide to commit crime, and if you don't - ignorance is no excuse. And frankly it's not a lot to ask. Pony up half the cost of boarding inmates.

Don't want to, avoid drugs and crime. It's not rocket science.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

They normally also work during the day too. I’m fine with having people pay, but it seems odd to have them pay for expenses never incurred.

If they really want this money out of her, it should have been a fine.

[mad.casual]

JFC. I'm surrounded by NPCs:

"Because many low-income people can't pay their debt, billions of dollars in fines and fees go unpaid every year.

I'm as borderline autistic as the next internet denizen and the fact that Emma left the closing quote off bugs the absolute shit out of me too, but I'm not some code compiler and that can't possibly understand that statement without the quotes and this ain't advanced mathematics.

[windycityattorney]

Have you ever seen a job application that asks a simple question: Have you ever been arrested for or convicted of a felony?

Because lots of them do. And once you answer yes, your job prospects go to shit.

This law is stupid and ineffectual. You support it so much because tax payers pay for the prisons and prison guards and meals and bla bla bla and your stupid fucking legislators make a million things a felony. Then allow companies to contract with prisons to have the prisoners work for 25cents an hour but only if said companies donate generously to the politicos campaign election fund. Fucking disgusting.

[Granite]

No you’re just getting dementia you old fuck

[mad.casual]

You're the one shouting at the internet about old peoples' junk.

[Dan S.]

In Florida—and most other states—inmates are charged for the costs of their time in prison.

I am stunned. I had heard of county jails doing this, for people sentenced to short stays, up to around 90 days. I didn't think it could apply to state prisons, where people are incarcerated for years or decades at a time. How can any prisoner possibly pay off a debt like that? Such a system seems deliberately designed to keep former prisoners in debt for the rest of their lives. Is that, in fact, the intent? What is the history of this system?

[mad.casual]

Such a system seems deliberately designed to keep former prisoners in debt for the rest of their lives. Is that, in fact, the intent? What is the history of this system?

Prison? Back to The Code of Hammurabi it's been used in lieu of actually enslaving people to the victim of their crimes or executing them for relatively trivial offenses. I know it's fun to pretend that we do a lot of magical things that people couldn't even have dreamed of as being impossible in Hammurabi's era but the fundamentals of justice and economics still apply. If she did $127K dollars in damages to someone's else's property foisting the sum total of $254K on the victims or taxpayers who didn't even break any laws and actually are otherwise economically productive makes even less sense.

[Sequel]

Cruel and unusual punishment.

[John Rohan]

If they are trying to achieve the goal of rehabilitation, how does this help?

You try to turn your life around, but you still got a 127k debt. Not to a victim as restitution, but to the state. At minimum wage, it would take her many years to pay that off, and if it collects interest it would never be paid off. The only feasible option to pay it off would be to return to a life of crime, which is exactly the opposite of the state's intent.

[AT]

Pretty good reason to NOT do drugs and commit crimes in the first place then, isn't it.

I mean, it's not an unreasonable ask. Most humans manage it. I don't know what everyone else's problem is.