A Social Anarchist Issues a Challenge
Jesse Spafford's new book argues that libertarian premises lead to left-anarchist conclusions. Is he right?

Social Anarchism and the Rejection of Moral Tyranny, by Jesse Spafford, Cambridge University Press, 242 pages, $110
What do anarchists advocate? It depends on whom you ask. Among free market libertarians, anarchists typically share a vision in which private firms, competing on the market, replace the security services traditionally monopolized by the state. But most self-described anarchists espouse a very different vision in which private property is viewed as a tool of oppression analogous to the state. For social anarchists, communal cooperation and egalitarian sharing should (largely or entirely) replace market competition and private holdings.
Social anarchism has had relatively few defenders within the analytic tradition of academic philosophy. Jesse Spafford, a lecturer at Victoria University of Wellington, aims to fill that gap with Social Anarchism and the Rejection of Moral Tyranny. Spafford seeks to show that social anarchist conclusions can be drawn from premises that libertarians have reason to find attractive.
Spafford's arguments are more complex than I can do justice to in a brief review, but here is a regrettably simplified sketch of some of his main lines of argument.
Spafford grounds his case for social anarchism in what he notes is a "recurrent theme in libertarian thought," namely that "persons should not be allowed to discretionarily impose costs upon others." In Spafford's hands, this commitment becomes a "Moral Tyranny Constraint" that forbids anyone to "unilaterally, discretionarily, and foreseeably act in a way that would leave others with less advantage than they would have possessed had the agent made some other choice."
From this foundation, Spafford derives some conclusions that are likely to be congenial to free market libertarians, such as self-ownership and a consent theory of state legitimacy (specifying that the mere fact that the state has issued a decree does not, in and of itself, give anyone a reason to obey the decree unless they have consented to the state's authority). But he also derives a conclusion that libertarians will find less welcome, to put it mildly: that self-owners cannot legitimately own anything other than themselves.
This conclusion will likely seem radical even among social anarchists, many of whom seek to target private ownership of the means of production (e.g., land, capital equipment) or of commodities for market exchange, while making an exception for personal property (e.g., the proverbial toothbrush). Spafford allows no such exceptions.
Spafford's ban on external property begins deceptively modestly, with a defense of the famous "Lockean proviso" put forward in John Locke's Second Treatise of Government, which requires those appropriating resources for their own use to do so in a way that does not worsen the position of others. Spafford's case for the proviso is that it follows straightforwardly from the Moral Tyranny Constraint: If my acts of appropriation leave you worse off, then I have imposed a cost on you without your consent.
Those libertarian theorists who accept the proviso, such as Robert Nozick and David Schmidtz, think it is fairly easy to satisfy, given the greater opportunities that a private-property society provides to everyone, whether they are among the earliest appropriators or not. But Spafford argues that the proviso actually rules out all exclusive appropriation. For even if the ways in which private appropriators are likely to use their resources (given market incentives) are, on net, beneficial to others, the mere fact that they could use those resources in ways that would harm others' interests is a moral cost to those others, just as the fact that a slaveowner could freely decide to beat or murder her slaves is a moral cost to those slaves, even if the slaveowner is not so cruelly inclined. Being subject to the arbitrary will of another is incompatible with freedom, regardless of how that will is likely to be exercised. Spafford therefore rejects private property on the same grounds that he rejects state authority.
Spafford's argumentative skills are impressive, but that does not mean his case is convincing. In particular, his grounding principle, the Moral Tyranny Constraint, seems much too strong. Libertarians have traditionally distinguished between different ways of imposing costs on others, with some ways—those involving "aggression" (however defined)—being subject to much more stringent prohibitions than the rest. I think Spafford is right that those who find it problematic to impose costs on others via aggression should also find it problematic to impose costs on others via non-aggressive means; but I think he is too hasty in assuming that they should find it problematic in the same degree, licensing prohibitions of equal stringency.
The fact that an action would impose an uncompensated disadvantage on others, even non-aggressively, is plausibly a prima-facie case against its moral permissibility. But there's a long distance from a prima-facie case to an all-things-considered case, let alone to a case for the legitimacy of forcibly preventing such imposition.
In order to traverse that distance, one would need for there to be no countervailing considerations. Spafford argues that pragmatic considerations cannot be legitimate objections if they are grounded in utilitarianism, since utilitarianism—as both John Rawls and Robert Nozick have argued—treats benefits to some people as though they could make up for costs to other people. But not all pragmatic considerations need assume the truth of utilitarianism. If, as most economists agree, abolishing private property would drastically lower a society's standard of living (for familiar informational and incentival reasons), then such abolition would itself seem to run afoul of the Moral Tyranny Constraint by imposing uncompensated costs on nearly everybody. And if the constraint both mandates and forbids the abolition of private property, then it would seem to be a non-starter as a principle.
Even leaving such economic considerations aside, Spafford's extreme version of the Moral Tyranny Constraint seems to run against the spirit of that constraint. Some degree of discretionarily imposing costs on others is surely a necessary part of the background of ordinary life. To take an example that Spafford himself discusses, suppose the person I'm in love with chooses my rival over me, thereby making me worse off without my consent. This choice is allowable, in Spafford's view, only if I am somehow compensated for my loss. (I note in passing that compensation might be very difficult. What kind of compensation would be adequate for, say, the suicidally lovelorn?) But the notion that the right to choose one's partner depends on the possibility of compensating disappointed suitors certainly feels like moral tyranny against the chooser. If every imposition of costs, regardless of kind, raises the specter of moral tyranny, that would make the prohibition on moral tyranny itself, incoherently, an instance of moral tyranny. This is one reason the traditional libertarian position of a stringent bar against some forms of imposing costs and a laxer bar against others makes more sense.
It's also unclear whether a bright line between self-ownership and ownership of external resources can really be maintained. Is a prosthetic limb part of a person's body? If we say no, we treat the self-ownership rights of a disabled person as having a narrower scope than those of the non-disabled. But if prosthetic limbs are indeed covered by self-ownership, despite being inorganic and detachable, it will be difficult to exclude external tools—and so on. Not for nothing have thinkers as diverse as Aristotle, Locke, Kant, and Hegel regarded property as an extension of the self. And this is arguably the libertarian basis for discriminating among cost impositions: Those that physically interfere with the extended self will reasonably face a more stringent prohibition than those that do not, and one certainly cannot legitimately suppress the latter by engaging in the former.
Still, this is an intelligently argued book that deserves careful reading and discussion—particularly among market libertarians, since it offers ingenious and powerful arguments, from premises many libertarians will find appealing, to conclusions that most libertarians will be eager to avoid. That's the sort of challenge that libertarians need to take seriously. And although, as I say, I ultimately don't think Spafford's case succeeds, my review has necessarily had to leave out the full details of his arguments, and thus is not a complete response to them.
Note that while the hard copy of this book has a hefty price tag, a PDF version is, appropriately for a manifesto against exclusive ownership, available for free on Cambridge Core's Open Access site.
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Is this where we point to the unqualified and unanimous endorsement of the BLM riots and the actions of antifa by the writers of Reason as support for the book's premise?
Citation please!
LOL
Squirrely revisiting his greatest humiliation by demanding citation! 🙂
Hey remember that time you challenged me to produce evidence of anyone on your side crossing the line into violent *threats*? Because you forgot about the left-wing terrorist who opened fire on Congresspeople after months of exposure to stolen election conspiracy theories?
I don’t recall any “HillaryPanzees gone apeshit” and saying “kill him with his own gun”? Got any cites on that?
Or: "How to discredit your entire gimmick in just 2 sentences!"
So then, all future murders should get off for it, since OJ Simpson did? That's your path forwards?
Butt, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?
How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:
Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”
Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”
Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”
Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?
(Ass for me, I think we should have PUT THE SQUEEZE on OJ!)
Sandranistas and twatabouts are part of the problem, NOT a part of the solution!
"Sandranistas and twatabouts are part of the problem, NOT a part of the solution!"
Nah.
I sleep fine at night knowing I criticized Hillary dead-enders who couldn't admit their historically terrible candidate lost to a weak opponent, and I criticize Trump dead-enders who have the same issue.
But "election denial" will continue as long as people like you excuse it when it comes from your allies.
So then the Trumpanzees gone apeshit should be given a free pass because of all of the many depredations of the Hillarypanzees gone apeshit? Shit seems to me that there is a VERY serious danger that every time the offenses oscillate between offenders being of “Team A” v/s “Team B”, shit gets worse and worse, and twataboutism means that it always ratchets WORSE, and NEVER gets fixed!
Rightists when Ashli Babbs & the Trumpanzees Gone Apeshit are criticized: “Whatabout BLM and Anti-Fa and other rioting assholes”?
Leftists when BLM and Anti-Fa and other rioting assholes are criticized: “Whatabout Ashli Babbs & the Trumpanzees Gone Apeshit”?
Whatabout twatabout whatabout & the twatabouts?!?!?!
Fuck off, Shillsy.
Mammary-Farter the GIANT BOOB, and Her Perfect Twatabouts, are part of the problem, NOT a part of the solution!
Even when EVIL PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT ALMIGHTY (of ANY party!) engage in twataboutism, Ye Perfect Twat, IT DOES NOT MOVE US FORWARDS towards truth, freedom, benevolence, non-hypocrisy, etc., You Perfectly thick-headed, obtuse Perfect Person!!!! Ye just Perfectly insist that only YOUR Team knows twat “good” v/s “bad” twataboutism is!
ADMITTING one’s own sins (and the sins of Our Team), and WORKING ON our OWN sins, is what moves us forwards, Oh Perfectly Obtuse Wonder Child! People who are SMARTER than Perfect You can see RIGHT through Your Perfectly STUPID sophistry!
4 million LP spoiler votes were payback for the Dems' pretending to defend individual rights. A difference was detected between one known liar looter faction and the other unknown liar caudillo. Voters decided and the LP helped shuffle the new deal.
Let's face it. The Squirrel doesn't need actually require any assistance with discrediting itself. It does that all on its own, every time it molests a keyboard.
Sure, but you gotta admit that particular blunder was pathetic even by Squirrely's standards.
His shtick, which he's run into the ground worse than I did with OBL, is psyching himself into a constant state of panic that stolen election theories will motivate unhinged lunatics to get violent. Yet he simply forgot about the domestic terrorist who heard RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION for the billionth time - then tried to murder Congressmen!
It's nonsapient. I don't really consider any particular idiotic thing it spews worse than others. It never says anything worthy of consideration. I suppose some of it has the appearance of being "worse" than others, but it's just ChatGPT4chan. There's no thought involved, just mindless, Markov chain generated occasional semicoherence.
Programmed to give errors.
I have had it blocked for a very long time. I don't remember it posting anything attempting to be coherent.
I didn't take it as a bad LLM. I took it as either a troll, or a very unfunny "comedian" or some combination.
Is he the weirdo with the webpage dedicated to ranting about a medical flute or something like that? The same guy that does on about eating poop and that makes up poems/songs?
I never paid enough attention to know he was a democrat.
Yeah I muted it as soon as the option became available. Occasionally I show up signed out and see it's rants momentarily. Sign in and a peaceful grey box appears.
I actually signed up an account specifically to mute commenters like this.
They're just there to be contrary, and to distract from anything like real discussion.
Anything like real discussions can ONLY involve just HOW hard we should all Suck Orange Dick, dammit!
Hey conservatives!!! How about a “Grand Compromise”? Y’all give up your “abortion boners”, in exchange for lib-tards giving up their “gun boners”?
This looks like a prime opportunity for me to explain a few things I’ve learned on this planet, while becoming a geezer. A few things, that is, about human nature, and excessive self-righteousness, tribalism, the “rush to judge” others, and the urge to punish.
“Team R” politician: “The debt is too large, and government is too powerful. If you elect ME, I will FIX that budget-balance problem SOON! But, first things first! THOSE PEOPLE OVER THERE ARE GETTING ABORTIONS!!! We must make the liberals CRY for their sins! AFTER we fix that RIGHT AWAY, we’ll get you your budget balanced and low taxes!”
“Team D” politician: “The debt is too large, and I’ll get that fixed soon, I promise you, if you elect ME! First, the more important stuff, though: THOSE PEOPLE OVER THERE ARE OWNING GUNS!!! We must PROTECT the American People from guns and gun-nuts!!! AFTER we fix that RIGHT AWAY, we’ll get our budgets balanced!”
And then we gripe and gripe as Government Almighty grows and grows, and our freedoms shrink and shrink. And somehow, the budget never DOES get balanced!
Now LISTEN UP for the summary: Parasites and politicians (but I repeat myself) PUSSY GRAB US ALL by grabbing us by… Guess what… by our excessive self-righteousness, tribalism, the “rush to judge” others, and the urge to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH those “wrong” others! Let’s all STOP being such fools, and STOP allowing the politicians OF BOTH SIDES from constantly pussy-grabbing us all, right in our urge to… Pussy-grab the “enemies”, which is actually ALL OF US (and our freedoms and our independence, our ability to do what we want, without getting micro-managed by parasites)!!!
Shorter and sweeter: The pussy-grabbers are actually pussy-grabber-grabbers, grabbing us all in our pussy-grabbers. Let us all (as best as we can) AMPUTATE our OWN nearly-useless-anyways pussy-grabbers, and the pussy-grabber-grabbers will NOT be able to abuse us all NEARLY ass much ass these assholes are doing right now!
Or do you ENJOY seeing extra tax money of yours endlessly wasted ass BOTH SIDES pussy-grab each other in grandstanding maneuvers that actually do us no good whatsoever?
The likes of Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer and Ron DeSatan spend OODLES of taxpayer dollars “making the libs cry” with UDDERLY stupid KulturKampf wars (“Drag Queen Shows” cum to mind), while said Libs spend OUR money getting their panties in a wad concerning should-be-free speech (“trigger warnings” etc. for the snowflakes) on campuses. And ONLY brilliant geniuses like me can actually see that we’re all, collectively, getting abused by letting the political pussy-grabber-grabbers, grab us by our pussy-grabbers!!! WTF will it take for us to WAKE THE FUCK UP?!?!?
You people are too stupid and too self-righteous to even see your stupidity and self-righteousness. I pity the fools! Keep right on letting the parasitical politicians grab you by Your Perfect Pussy-Grabbers, then, You Perfect FOOLS, and SUFFER the effects of your foolishness, till MAYBE one day ye will wake up!!!
The collectivist pussy-grabbers of BOTH SIDES reveal their evil, stupid, self-righteous pussy-grabbing… By pussy-grabbing each other, all day, every day! And their “leaders” abuse us all day, every day, by grabbing us all, right in our self-righteous pussy-grabbers, while we’d ALL be MUCH better off amputating our own useless pussy-grabbers!
The politicians of BOTH SIDES (butt truly mostly of "Team R" in your specific case) have grasped you VERY firmly by your pussy-grabber! Butt you can SNOT see shit!
Grasshopper... Learn to RENOUNCE your pussy-grabber (give UP on "making the libs cry"), and the pussy-grabber-grabbers will no longer be able to abuse you thereby!
They won't read any of that because they all have you muted.
They won’t read any of that because they all are smug, self-satisfied, and stupid.
You're so un-self-aware, you fail to realize they care not a shit what you think as they do not and now cannot read your shit, Sqrlsy.
You know, Insane Wonder Child, no matter WHO we are, less than 0.0000000000001% of the world is going to read our shit!!! That includes YOUR shit, too! Grow the fuck up, develop some HUMILITY, and ye will be happier!
I can count on two hands the number of times you’ve engaged in real discussion.
It should be put to sleep at the vet. Just like every rabid thing.
Hey Punk Boogers! HERE is your “fix”! Try shit, you might LIKE shit!!!
https://rentahitman.com/ … If’n ye check ’em out & buy their service, ye will be… A Shitman hiring a hitman!!!
If’n ye won’t help your own pathetic self, even when given a WIDE OPEN invitation, then WHY should ANYONE pity you? Punk Boogers, if your welfare check is too small to cover the hitman… You shitman you… Then take out a GoFundMe page already!!!
Too much trouble. Just put it in a bag and drown it.
I remember Chuck Schumer threatening SCOTUS justices over the impending overturning of the unconstitutional Roe V Wade decision. Which almost got Brett Kavanaugh killed by a leftist psychopath.
Why dwell on such trivia when there are mean tweets to worry about?
The headline asks a question, and once again, the answer is "No".
As for your question, the answer is also "No", but that's because the writers at Reason aren't libertarians any longer. They've been turned to the dark side.
Spafford's case for the proviso is that it follows straightforwardly from the Moral Tyranny Constraint: If my acts of appropriation leave you worse off, then I have imposed a cost on you without your consent.
Spafford eating anything at all, ever, means that other people aren't able to eat that thing themselves, and that imposes an unacceptable cost on those other people. I demand that he live up to his philosophy and stop eating. Entirely. Come to think of it, the same principle applies to water. And oxygen.
I heard it here that if you borrow money from a bank, someone else can’t get a loan.
This was the exact same sophistry sarc, jeff, and others are using to justify harming Trump in NYC.
I’m kinda glad I was too busy at my factory the last couple of weeks to keep up with all of it, tbth.
Well, leftists ARE oxygen thieves. Plus the carbon output from their lungs is causing climate change. So leftists shouldn’t breathe at all.
Well, at least it's an article about libertarianism.
I feel a nearly overwhelming urge to go be sitting on this guy’s couch, eating his dinner, when he gets back to his ivory tower after teaching classes one day.
“What? I read your book and agree that you shouldn’t be allowed to own anything.”
Yeah, sounds like a guy who wouldn't have thought the idea through to that point.
Private ownership of resources is what makes all the difference between firdt world western nations and shithole third world nations. What inventive is there to develop resources if there isn't anything it it for you?
This guy is another of those communism would be so good for YOU. Note his book on why we shouldn't have property costs $110.00
Nuff said.
His couch? His dinner? I'm sure you mean our couch and dinner per his worldview. Make sure you fuck our wife before leaving
I'm not sure any possessive pronoun works in that guy's worldview.
It's not Jesse wants communism.
Fine. I'll change my name.
For social anarchists, communal cooperation and egalitarian sharing should (largely or entirely) replace market competition and private holdings.
Short version, there would be nothing left to share very quickly.
Under Spaffordism, "...self-owners cannot legitimately own anything other than themselves."
Trillion-dollar question: Under Spaffordism, will the womb-slaves be freed, and allowed to own their own wombs?
No, they must be shared.
Slaves don't voluntarily do actions specifically created by a billion years of evolution to put people there.
They could have had oral, they could've done anal, they could've had handjobs and fingerbangs, they could have done frottage, they could have used condoms, the pill, diaphragms, or a hundred other methods of contraception, but instead they rawdogged it right in the snatch. A practice known to cause pregnancy in 100% of the mammalian species on earth.
They made a conscious choice, they aren't slaves, just murderers.
She shouldn't have gotten raped! She shouldn't have worn that dress! She shouldn't have generated that defective egg! She shouldn't have made it get stuck in her tubes!
Oklahoma now vying with Idaho for most fanatical!
https://news.yahoo.com/woman-cancerous-pregnancy-told-wait-215500885.html
Woman with Cancerous Pregnancy Was Told to Wait in Parking Lot Until She Was 'Crashing'
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/molar-pregnancy/symptoms-causes/syc-20375175
From there, we see that MOLAR PREGNANCIES ARE NEVER VIABLE!!! Yet fascist assholes like YOU want to endanger women in the Sacred Name of Unique Human DNA, which is present in a womb-slave!
From the listed source…
There are two types of molar pregnancy — complete molar pregnancy and partial molar pregnancy. In a complete molar pregnancy, the placental tissue swells and appears to form fluid-filled cysts. There is no fetus.
In a partial molar pregnancy, the placenta might have both regular and irregular tissue. There may be a fetus, but the fetus can’t survive. The fetus usually is miscarried early in the pregnancy.
The percentage of abortions due to actual rape are less than 1% so your example is bullshit. The vast vast majority of women have abortions because they and their partner were too stupid, lazy and horny to consider the consequences of ejaculating into the snatch.
And molar pregnancies are astonishingly rare at rates of less than 1/1000th in the US so that’s an absolute bullshit example too.
And not only that, even the Catholic Church doesn’t oppose terminating non-via and life threatening pregnancies, and no jurisdiction ever has… Even before Roe. So the whole game of pretending medically necessary abortion would be banned is pure dishonesty.
This is all just more evidence that 1. You’re very poorly educated on the subject, and 2. You refuse have an honest debate.
All right, Rightist "Honest Debater-Masturbater", answer THIS one in detail, about twat the punish-shit-ments should be for these various offenses, and WHERE You Perfectly derive these punish-shit-ments from!
http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc117957741
QUESTIONS THAT THE FANATICS WON’T EVER ANSWER: What do YOU think that the punishment should be for deliberately killing a fertilized human egg cell? Ditto the punishments for likewise killing a fertilized egg of an ape... A monkey... A rat... An insect... If your Righteous Punishments From on High are DIFFERENT in these cases, then WHY? WHERE do the differences come from? And what gives YOU (or the 51% of the voters) the right to punish the rest of us?
Never, ever, have I gotten any serious answers, when I pose these questions, about what the PUNISHMENTS should be! (Could it be that the fanatics don’t want us to focus on THEIR obsession, which is their smug and self-righteous “punishment boners”?). Also, the unwillingness to answer questions is strongly indicative of authoritarianism. At the root here is the unmistakable attitude of “Because I said so, peons! Do NOT question your Rulers!”
Doesn't matter because the media is overwhelmingly on the non honest side of the debate. The states will democratically allow almost all abortions for all reasons by the time it's all said and done.
"The states will democratically allow almost all abortions for all reasons by the time it’s all said and done."
Wooo-Hooo!!! The womb-slaves will be set free!!! Whining and crying, moaning crybaby despots wanna-be can go and kiss my freedom-loving ass!!!
Murrican Mongrel's sockpremise is that pregnant women aren't individuals. It's like the Aliens in the Sigourney Weaver movies eagerly replacing folks with rights with things with none. Then came the 9th, 10th, 13th, 14th and 19th Amendments. Poor misunderstood nationalsocialist brutes...
That’s not what he said. It’s not even in the same ball park you senile old fuck.
The non honest side? Which side is that? The pro abortion side or the anti abortion side?
Life and choice don't enter into it. That's just a distraction. One side takes abortion as a sacrament of their twisted Marxist religion. The other side wants to end abortion but doesn't give a shit about the lives of the kids after they are born.
In between, women who get knocked up by men who run from being a father leaving a kid who will grow up in the worst way, with a single young mother who doesn't want the child. But that's fine because you stopped her from having an abortion. Good for you.
The other side wants to end abortion but doesn’t give a shit about the lives of the kids after they are born.
...except by adopting more, giving more to charity, and volunteering more than the pro choice side.
Oh, I guess then there aren't any single mothers out there raising children who become either welfare queens or criminals any more.
They've all been saved by the right wingers and crime is at an all time low because no kid was raised by a single mom. No one is living on government charity or in prison for committing horrible crimes.
I guess the media is making it all up since your side has solved the problem of single mothers.
What I don't get with you anti abortion types is why fight so hard for the teenaged single woman to not abort the child she doesn't want and then forget completely about the now young single mom and her child?
Without a father the child is not going to have a good life. They are more likely to become a criminal, more likely to create more broken homes and more likely to live in poverty.
Not to mention the mother never wanted the child. Odds are she is going to take a lot of shit out on that kid. Odds are she isn't going to be a really loving mother.
What's the point of saving a kid just to condemn them to a miserable life? Seems to me if you stop an abortion you have a moral obligation to adopt the unwanted child.
Project Rachel as well as countless war on poverty bilions spent over the last 60 years says fuck off
Prisons full of boys raised by single moms says you've failed.
Also the "War on Poverty" was LBJ's brain child. Just because the government stoke your money and redirected it doesn't mean you've done shit.
I didn't read the OP, but...
Furthering the argument against allowing the murder of those dependent on you for their survival... Why is the parent of an infant not a slave to that infant who is therefore allowed to legally terminate said infant?
Not as pathetically stupid as the clump of cells argument I guess.
Well duh, my already-born child can be adopted by someone else. Unless it is a WAY late-stage fetus, it can NOT be adopted! And those (late-term abortions) are about 3% or less of abortions, and are usually done because they can't live anyway, or can only live for a short life of possibly immense suffering. Get off of Your High but stupid horse!
Lookit Canada. No laws enslaving women. LP, Morgentaler, (https://bit.ly/3wEDYvX)
Canada should never be used as an example for anything.
I'd say the real difference is if they willingly decided to be a parent vs. became a parent because the condom broke and the sperm donor skipped town.
Every year or so seems some woman does her level best to kill her fully born kids and claims god told her to do it. I do wonder why the courts prosecute women who do that.
Another girl-bullier eager to rape a gal and turn her into a rightless breeder dam for squeezing out Hitlerjugend. Superstition is plainly even more teratogenic than Thalidomide.
Now that's just a bit over the top.
Not saying I don't agree with the sentiment, just saying it's kinda over the top.
"Note that while the hard copy of this book has a hefty price tag, a PDF version is, appropriately for a manifesto against exclusive ownership, available for free on Cambridge Core's Open Access site."
$110 is obscene for a book!!! I see more and more of this shit lately!
Free PDF steals my thunder, and is a GOOD thing! I was gonna bitch about this non-property-owning sonofabitch "helping himself" to some hefty chunk of the $110... And then I read the conclusion! OK, good, at least SOME non-hypocrisy here!
On associated matters, egghead books charge out the ass, and then up to the latter 1/3 of the book is citations, which VERY few people read! Why not cut costs and save some trees? Publish your book with a concluding sentence or two: "In order to save the trees and reduce your costs, hit web site blah_de_blah for all the detailed citations. We promise to leave this web site up from now till the end of time. If you don't trust us, download and print them out NOW!"
Roderick T. Long's review here is good; I like it!
Re-stating his objections to this book, consider some scenarios. In the middle of the forest, desert, ocean floor, etc., I find a big chunk of gold, silver, diamonds, crashed UFO possibly containing the secrets of anti-gravity. Or I tinker in my garage or on my computer, and I discover or invent wonderful new "tech", programs, or even ethical or moral principles. Like Spafford did, supposedly?
Now I may not TOUCH, use, grab, publish, or otherwise exploit what I have found? Because I might be a glory-hound and brag about it, take credit for it, make a few dollars from it? I might sell my book(s) about it, go on a speaking tour and allow people to buy for me, or otherwise supply me with food or drink to commend me?
Utter hogwash, any way you look at it! And who is gonna ENFORCE all of this crap, and how? How will we have material, "tech" or even moral-ethical progress this way? Am I even allowed to SPEAK about what I have found? Someone might commend me for speaking out about what I have found!!! Oh NOOOOO!!!!
VERY simply put, if our earliest ape-like ancestors, upon first discovering Spaffordism, had actually FOLLOWED Spaffordism, none of them would have dared to pick a fruit or a nut, or some clumps of veggies to eat, or slurped up some water to drink, because they didn't OWN that stuff! They were depriving others of it! They would have gone extinct pronto! (Maybe Spaffordism espouses that that would have been best!)
Four piles of English shit from the spastic asshole! No thanks.
Fuck off and die.
^This
I just see a bunch of gray boxes. Probably a bunch of shit eating gibbering.
Correct—Sevo and Squirrel.
I've yet to mute the asshole VD.
i am usually loath to mute posters here (other than spam bots) but i have to say - seeing the same grey you're talking about makes me feel content i made the right choice in these cases.
I own myself.
To force me to make something for you is slavery: it steals my self-ownership.
To steal something I have made is slavery in hindsight: it stole the work I put into making that object.
Therefore property exists and has owners.
Therefore the concept of all property being communal is nonsense.
To steal something I have made is slavery in hindsight: it stole the work I put into making that object.
Is this a good time to bring up Intellectual Property?
Know we disagree here and all =)
I’m really not sure how to consider Intellectual Property in the digital era. When perfect, essentially costless, nigh infinite duplication exists, it’s difficult to claim that anything has actually been stolen when a book or album is downloaded. Obviously I also comprehend the incentive problem. It’s a huge problem in the open source software world as well, where there are huge numbers of codebases that underpin large portions of the Internet that are maintained by essentially unpaid personnel. And there’s no good way to even microcharge for those services and see the maintainers compensated.
Likewise, music, literature, film. Ironically, if the worthless leftist scum would stop teaching disrespect for property, it’s possible more people would feel inclined to voluntarily support the things they get for free from the creative. But instead, the attitude taught is that everyone deserves to get everything they want whether they can compensate someone for it or not. So how would it ever occur to them to voluntarily pay for an album they can just download?
Back in the day, concerts were held to sell albums, now music is almost given away to sell concert tickets.
And if the legal model matched that reality, I think that would be a significant improvement. I'm not quite sure how you make that work for books, though.
Film could work, if "going to the movies" could somehow be made that sort of experience, but I'm not sure. And there's a lot more capital investment in "making a movie" than in "putting on a single concert". But "going to a concert" is a lot more viscerally involved (well, if it's done right) than just watching a movie, whether it be at the theater or at home.
Well, like I say. I don't know how to make that work.
You can spend a couple of years developing a new technology. To say it is because it was done digitally it is now free and open source is to take away years of a persons work. Theft is theft.
I'm not sure you have understood the point I was trying to make.
Car theft is easy to determine. Ford makes a car, Bob steals it, Ford is very clearly missing something they had before. Physical objects are easy enough to figure out "property" for.
Metallica records an album, and prints CDs. Bob buys one. He rips it to FLAC and puts it online. Alice downloads it. What is Metallica missing that they were previously in possession of? There might be a case for contract violation against Bob, if there was one on the CD that said "You won't rip this and post it online" but that doesn't really legally attach to Alice so much.
It's very easy to say "theft is theft" but that implies that copyright and patents should be forever since it's very obviously still theft if someone steals a 300 year old buggy.
And my comment about open source software was about people who intentionally release something as open source and end up fucked because nobody will pay them to maintain it, but still bitch when bugs are found. I've been writing software for 40 years. I've been the executive producer on two full length feature films, and armorer on several more. (And despite them being filmed in New Mexico, I never let Alec Baldwin shoot anyone on or off set.) So I'm hardly ignorant on how this can affect producers of intellectual content. And despite that, I still want to find a philosophically consistent solution to the issue.
It’s very easy to say “theft is theft” but that implies that copyright and patents should be forever since it’s very obviously still theft if someone steals a 300 year old buggy.
Not true. IP falls under a few categories. Patents are a temporary agreement in order to get people to publish their IP. It is a commercial exchange for the publication of technology.
There are also trade secrets that are never disclosed except internally. It is used to prove or investigate IP theft.
I have both.
So if you want free technology and IP, the patent system is a limited commercial interest to make it public.
Your example of the Metallica music is what happens in at least the US. Bob would be the one prosecuted/sued, not Alice, for the precise reasons you gave.
There's really no change 'in the digital era'.
You just have to understand that IP isn't - and never was 'property'. The 'property' part is a misnomer and confuses a lot of people.
A copyright, trademark, or patent are limited duration licenses granted by 'the people' (through the mechanism of government' to exclusive control of an idea.
That's it.
When you 'steal' a copy of something - you're not *stealing* (and it shouldn't be treated like theft legally or morally) you're violating that license.
So the issue isn't dealing with 'theft' - which even you don't *really* seem to think fits the bill - but with maintaining the balance so that new IP is incentivized to be created.
By viewing it as 'theft' we run into an issue where a single person gets hit with a $5000 lawsuit for 'stealing' a movie and we consider that to be grossly disproportionate.
Look at it in the other sense and maybe we can find a way forward though.
You can rationalize it however you want. Taking from someone else and forcing others to commit to your viewpoint of public release is just amusing to me.
You seem not to understand the purpose of patents. Again. It is a limited commercial agreement to encourage people to publicize their IP.
Youre just rationalizing why you should be able to steal someone else's years of research and development. IRAD has a cost. Whether you want to admit it or not. You're stealing from others who have an economic incentive to further technology and knowledge.
Youre free to publicize anything you come up with. Others are free to keep it secret. And others are free to publicize in exchange for commercial limited time monopoly or licensing.
You are not free to demand others give you the product of their work.
I think what most of us are saying is there is a world of difference between the sunk cost of IRAD and the tortured logic of the NFL owning the words “Super Bowl”.
Yeah. My position is simply that uncontrolled property is abandoned unless I try to get it back, like if my dog escapes and I don't care, someone else can claim him. If I sell a book, it's no longer mine, the buyer can lend it, burn it, use it to keep a table from rocking. If I sell a digital copy, I can't prevent the buyer from copying it. If I want to dump DRM on it, that still doesn't prevent copying, and the key can be copied too, even if it takes work, like Amazon Kindle eBooks. So I just don't believe in IP.
I understand the idea that the creator put work into it, but why get royalties? Carpenters don't get royalties from house occupants, why should writers get royalties? Artists get big bucks because there's only one copy, but they also get big bucks for 100 lithographs. Let Authors get big buck for autographing books. I buy books to read and reference, and I'd pay a premium to get the author's printed or digital book instead of a copy, just so he can keep producing books. But by law? I just don't see it. You sell it, it's no longer yours.
So often we get into the realm of corporate IP theft where the information is not freely given away. Same with reverse engineering under licensing agreements in violation. You've advocated this be free to anyone, even woth the inventor not agreeing to such. Often these discussions are with the hundreds of billions a year stolen by the Chinese. It is obvious the owners are not giving away this information based on the 10s of billions spent on IP security.
Also when a transition to a bought item is made, such as scanning a copy of the hard copy to a pdf then giving it away, an action was made to create theft.
"I own myself."
When did you acquire yourself? Did you own yourself from your time in the womb? The day you were born? Reach the age of majority?
Don't forget:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
"Reach the age of majority?"
Isn't age just a number to you, MAPtrueman?
"Isn’t age just a number to you"
Good question. Just when does one acquire ownership of oneself? Does ownership of oneself end at death? Does a corpse continue own itself, or is ownership transferred to the next of kin, creditor, the state or something else?
Any adult understands the difference between adults and children. The fact that you pretend to not understand it puts you in the duplicitous category.
If you cannot control yourself, you are not competent, you are not an adult. You'll be glad to have a guardian, starting with your parents, possibly ending with your children.
The true test of you being an adult would be how much you'd scream for someone other than a Democrat Marxist trying to control you.
"The fact that you pretend to not understand it puts you in the duplicitous category."
He has reasons why as this post of his illustrates:
mtrueman 2 days ago
Flag Comment Mute User
And where would you prefer 9 year olds to learn about sex? Are there any porn sites on the web you could point to that you think would do a better, more responsible job? I’m pretty sure most 9 year olds masturbate. It’s easy to do and is a source of innocent merriment.
Children masturbate. The fact they masturbate without the permission of their owners doesn't change the fact.
Why do they need your guidance?
"Why do they need your guidance?"
I don't think they do. And I don't think they need Mother's Lament wringing his hands over their burgeoning sexual curiosity. That kind of puritanical guilt tripping I can do without.
Not for nothing:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Then why do they need a website?
"Then why do they need a website?"
Children are curious about sexuality. Typically they get answers from parents or the schools the parents send their children to. Mother's Lament doesn't want schools to address this, and sees the parent's role as shaming and guilt tripping curious and healthy children. If he opposes schools taking up the topic and is too puritanical and neurotic to do it himself, the children will seek other venues - websites, for example. Nature abhors a vacuum.
I understand the impulse for parents to preserve the innocence of children for as long as possible. I don't think that's healthy in the long run as the world is full of wicked people who wouldn't think twice about exploiting the ignorance of children on matters of sex. Forewarned is forearmed as the saying goes. You or Mother's Lament might find it excruciatingly embarrassing to sit down for half an hour and discuss sex with a child, but I beg you to put aside your personal discomfort and consider the well being of the children.
After all it's just masturbation we're talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWKrAQAhu-k
When I was 9 years old it didn’t even enter my head to masturbate. I’m reasonably sure exactly zero of my family and friends masturbated at 9 years old. I shared a room with siblings and spent enough times at sleepovers that I would have noticed someone wanking. In fact, the literature indicates that prepubescent children masturbating is an indicator of sexual abuse.
It's not "curious and healthy" unless you're a pedophile.
How did kids masturbate before pedophiles like yourself get involved?
"When I was 9 years old it didn’t even enter my head to masturbate."
Don't be too hard on yourself, pun intended.
"How did kids masturbate "
It depends. Boy kids or girl kids?
"When I was 9 years old it didn’t even enter my head to masturbate. I’m reasonably sure exactly zero of my family and friends masturbated at 9 years old"
Now that's just plain weird. The fact that you remember your 9 year old thoughts and actions. The fact that you are absolutely certain there was no masturbation going on around you at 9 years old.
How would you know? Odds are no one taught you about masturbation. How would you know ow it if you saw it and why would you remember such a specific thing not happening at 9 years old.
Do you remember the names of your school teachers at that age? The names of all the students in your class? The name of the preacher at your church? The name of Sunday school teachers?
Not many people have such crystal clear memories of being nine years old. Few can recall important details of that age much less the absolute lack of something they didn't even know existed at the time.
"How did kids masturbate before pedophiles like yourself get involved?"
No pedophiles needed. It's a natural reflex. While using hands to explore one's world one finds genitalia and discovers the sensations from playing with the genitalia are pleasurable.
Many religions try to turn this natural action into some kind of horrible sin and help guilt and shame onto young children. Christianity has tried all manner of things to stop children from masturbating. Genital mutilation of the boys foreskin is one example. The history of this obsession by the religious reads like a horror show. No wonder the simple act of self pleasure now leads to all sorts of unsavory kinds of sexual kinks.
@Mother's Lament
Well I have 3 boys all under 8 and all of them clearly enjoy touching themselves. While I don't do anything yet about this behavior with the baby, I do have to remind the older two occasionally that sticking their hands down their pants in public is not acceptable. Maybe this isn't truly masturbation, but it is pretty close.
"The fact that you pretend to not understand it puts you in the duplicitous category."
I'm not pretending anything. I asked a few questions. You've attempted to answer. Adults own themselves provided they are able to control themselves, otherwise presumably they are owned by other adults. Or maybe being adult is giving the right answer to your 'true test.' Either way, I urge you to think for yourself rather than mindlessly repeating slogans like 'I own myself.'
"Adults own themselves provided they are able to control themselves, otherwise presumably they are owned by other adults."
A realistic answer for a complex world! Those severely mentally handicapped, severely anti-social and-or violent criminals, and possibly others, come to mind. "Owned by others" grates on our ears, for being too honest! But it's pretty accurate! High-horse hypocrites will use their (opponents's) honesty against the honest people, though... We see it HERE all of the time!
I don't know. The idea of one owning oneself seems vacuous. Like selling something to yourself. I prefer the traditional approach, like the aboriginal Australian completing his walkabout, or the Jewish bar mitzvah. Those rituals end up in the young person's recognition as a full member of the community. That's more than enough. No need to talk about ownership and commodification.
Agreed! Whether we like it or not, we ARE members of the community, of our "tribe"! The advanced ones among us (for THOUSANDS of years now) have argued that "the community" or tribe should span ALL humans! "All men are bothers" goes WAY back as a goal or inspiration, aspiration, and this was well before "sociobiology", the study of intelligent-animal behavior, kinship-based genetic self-interest evolving into human altruism, etc. We humans can become guardians of life on the planet! Or we could destroy it with STUPID tribal wars! The choice is ours.
Whenever you are bored, check out the below... Especially the links...
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been feared and resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
Are you at least willing to admit the state can’t own people?
Does the State of North Korea NOT own their people? Does Team R not DREAM and cream in their pants, all day every day, imagining themselves "owning" the "libs"? Of turning the "libs" into North-Korea-style slaves of the One-Party State of The Donald?
"Are you at least willing to admit the state can’t own people?"
Unfortunately, they can. I don't support it, though. And as for one's ownership of oneself, that just seems nothing more than empty sloganeering. About as meaningful as picking something from your belongings and selling it to yourself.
We know - you believe the only value an individual has is in their productivity for the state or in making warfare for the state.
You're not getting it. Perhaps we could straighten things out if I could speak to your owner.
Incunabulum is owned by Dear Leader The Donald! Abandon ALL hope, ye who enter here, because Dear Leader The Donald will SNOT be spoken unto, by any who do SNOT Worshit Him Udderly!!!
I followed this to the end. I see where you're coming from and what you're trying to say but cross cultists are fanatics who know the "TRUTH" because it was told to them by their big sky daddy. You won't get anywhere with them using logic.
To steal something is 'partial murder'.
I spent part of my limited life working to get that thing. To steal it is literally taking part of my life.
Hey y’all… I don’t want to grab any glory for myself, so PLEASE don’t tell ANYONE about this!
However, I just now invented a fully-functional time-travel machine in my garage. AND I just converted to Staffordism!
So now that I have my secret time-travel machine, I got to thinking about Jesus, and how He discovered or invented new (or embellished old) moral-ethical-spiritual principles, and He just GRABBED them and spread them around!!! Ultimate Glory Hound, Jesus got a BUNCH of credit, and is now worshipped by BILLIONS of people! Can you imagine just GRABBING THE REWARDS like that? To the detriment of others that could have done it instead?
So I read Stafford’s PDF file, and put on my tin-foil hat above and beyond that, to “channel” Stafford Himself. So now I’m convinced that the right thing for me to do is to time-travel back to Jesus’s earliest days, and kill Him, to prevent His Glory-Grabbing ways! Then I must also destroy my time-travel machine, so that I can’t get any credit for that, either.
This IS what Stafford wants, right?
All I read was solipsism.
Speaking of solipsism, will reason ban the squirrel when he starts paying?
I doubt he has a credit card.
They take EBT.
Rabid animals get EBT? Oh wait, we have democrat run states. So of course they do.
Agreed. Starting with basic externalities here is how Jesse gets to you will own nothing and be happy.
Why am I getting yelled at!
You shouldn't have pushed communism to Roderick Long.
You aren’t. The book being reviewed was authored by someone named Jesse.
Hey! SPOILER ALERT, jackass.
Maybe that really is him?
I mean, I suppose it's possible, but it seems really unlikely. 😀
Plus, the Jesse that wrote the book is in MA, not AZ.
Now, if he'd been commenting for years as "JesseMA" I might be more suspicious... 😉
I've been to and hated Ma if it helps.
Same. Same. What a hole.
There's a reason they're called "Massholes".
Happily, I have avoided ever traveling to Massachusetts.
Or he’s just been saying he’s from AZ all this time to throw everyone off.
*taps forehead
That's the joke.
1.
the quality of being very self-centered or selfish.
"she herself elicits scant sympathy, such is her solipsism and lack of self-awareness"
2.
PHILOSOPHY
the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.
"solipsism is an idealist thesis because ‘Only my mind exists’ entails ‘Only minds exist’"
Spafford wants to tell us all what to do and not do, so I can see it that way. But he is OH SOOOO "concerned" that we might TAKE something and deprive others of it, which is, on the surface at least, non-selfish, and acknowledging the existence and rights of others.
Spafford is totes full of shit IMHO... But I'm curious about how you define solipsism and how it applies here.
Looking at his bio he is a postdoc "studies" major who works for Victoria collage. I will pass on life and sociatal advice from the guy that has never produced anything and get his pay from the goverment
Post doc studies = useless liberal arts major who has no meaningful skills and likely some trust fund.
You're just describing communism here. It has nothing to do with libertarianism.
I get it now:
Reason "here is a super smart interesting person who I find awsome and compelling"
Commenters "he's a retard rephrasing bs from the communist manifesto and calling it left libritarian."
Reason "we will start charging money for people to comment"
The operative part of the term "left-libertarian" is "left", not "libertarian". Just like how with "anarcho-communist" it's "communist", not "anarchist".
Leftists lie.
Lots of political philosophies like to add anarcho or small l libertarian to their base words. Just because a communist adds anarcho or a conservative adds libertarian it means nothing. They are still the same old philosophies.
More like here is a Dialectic spouting person with an education in spewing bullshit. Can you counter what he is saying in an intelligent manner and answer his points with solid arguments?
Or will you just act like an ape and throw poop at him?
Clearly you're a poop thrower.
The imaginary end goal of communism is a stateless society where everyone labors for everyone else and no one needs to own anything because everyone works hard because they love their fellow stateless commies.
I've heard this nonsense many times before.
And no matter how many times people are told they still refuse to understand that human nature makes their end goal impossible. A family unit is more or less a socialist/communist organization. Functional families still have a leader and individual property. They also require pressure to make sure all parts of the unit are pulling their fair share. It doesn't scale well to larger populations of adults because human nature doesn't align with unrequited self-sacrifice. There are also enough people who pursue one or many of the 7 deadly sins that will break down such a society. Most people will not be slaves to others and many are pathologically destructive. It doesn't work
A friend of mine once explained the problem of selling people on liberty. We are raised in benevolent dictatorships using the communist model of from each according to ability to each according to need. A child doesn't have to work to pay for their own medical insurance, that is just taken care of by the parents. The kid never sees the other side of things. Then at 18 we throw them to the wolves to figure it all out thinking the government school taught the kid everything they need.
Is it any wonder young people vote Democrat? The Democrats offer the security of living at home with mom and dad taking care of all the hard stuff.
Hence why kids should be given chores, allowances (dependant on completion of said chores), and unsupervised time where they have to take care of themselves. That way they have a better chance of growing up to be adults instead of post-pubescent children.
There is a balance between hands on and hands off when raising children. You can't go all the way in either direction. Kids want structure, but need opportunities to build real self confidence by succeeding while you aren't watching.... well, while they can't see you watching.
That's why a child needs both a mother and a father. They need the balance between "oh my baby" and "you haven't moved out yet?"
Jeff disagrees. Communism is libertarianism. The freedom from responsibility.
What chemjeff actually said:
There are many flavors of libertarianism, and ONE flavor of libertarianism is communistic in its ethos.
Libertarianism is libertarianism. That's it.
Sacrificing your property, choices and decision making abilities to a collective never will be.
People are free to do so. They aren’t free to force others to do so. Jeff desires the latter. Like when he claims government wouldn’t push welfare if everyone else would just donate more voluntarily.
Ironically this is the ethos at the heart of federalism which jeff hates the most. One world rule to rule them all.
So A = A
That's not arriving at a point through reasoning. It's accepting a point because someone told you that was what it was and you accepted it as Truth.
If the central idea of Libertarianism is the Non Agression Principle then why are government limitiation on the right to keep and bear arms wrong under that central idea?
And "because it is" isn't a legitimate argument.
Because keeping and bearing arms is not intrinsically aggressive, but using the threat of force to prohibit something is aggressive.
You're right of course. But you're being that kid in class who always has his hand up.
I was wondering if Mothers Lament could answer the question. Honestly I don't think it can.
No, there is not 'left-libertarianism', there is no 'right-libertarianism', there is only libertarianism.
Libertarianism doesn't care how you organize labor and capital. It literally has nothing to say on the matter except that it be voluntary. You want to join a collective (I'm part of several) and pool your labor and capital - go ahead.
If its voluntary - its just libertarianism.
If its not voluntary - its not libertarianism.
Well said. The terms left and right are a convenient shorthand for the chattering class but they aren't actually useful in describing the world we find ourselves in. I thought I was a liberal a few decades ago. Then the definition of liberal changed so I thought I was a libertarian (left-libertarian?). Then the definition of libertarian changed and I found myself a conservative (?, right libertarian?, populist?). I may be older and maybe wiser but my world view hasn't actually changed. Really wish "libertarians" would stop this silliness.
I was introduced to Libertarians by L. Neil Smith, author of many libertarian science fiction books. I was taught the Zaro Aggression Principle, no one has the right to use force or the threat of force to demand services or property from an individual. That's Libertarianism at its purest ideal.
Where we fuss and fight is on the principle of additive rights. The idea that a government elected by a majority has rights an individual doesn't have.
In the purest meaning no group, no matter how constituted, is to have rights in excess of the individuals rights. Meaning fuck your democracy, you can't tax me without my specific consent.
That is Libertarian at its barest bones. What they came up with in the mid 70s when Nixon went socialist.
Problem is that means we can't stop a woman from having a abortion, a man selling another man recreational drugs, an elderly person committing suicide, a parent from approving some weird surgery for their child, Two men getting married, and a lot of other things conservatives typically don't want people to do. So they like to claim to be libertarian leaning conservatives. Which is bullshit.
Where do property rights come from?
Natural law.
Which is the EXACT same thing that keeps the womb slaves enslaved!!!
So TWAT is the difference between that and "God told me so"?
Where do you think they come from, Jeffy? Please expound on your opinion.
That’s not any better.
Communism, even the idealized anarchic flavor, is collectivist at its base. This is diametrically opposed to the base of libertarianism: individualism.
Your posts on this every time the topic is discussed explains so much of your thinking and conflict with the overwhelming majority of posters here.
Jesse is a friend (not really)
He's always been a good friend of mine
But lately something change
it ain't hard to define
I got my self a home
And he says it ain't mine.
And he watching me with crazy eyes
And wanting my land I just know it.
Good job! Funny cultural allusion!
$110?
Ironically this is the form of libertarianism you seek head pats from.
"$110?"
PDF?
That's what I saw and thought about. I'm guessing he's like John Lennon, imagine there's no money. Yeah, you first John. Asshole.
I was surprised at the choice of a proprietary format like pdf over a free and open source alternative. True Social Anarchists can be very particular about such things.
"imagine there’s no money."
Imagine there's no debt. Even crazier.
Personally I find Lennon's post Beatles output extremely spotty. He peaked, pun intended, in '66 and '67.
Bettles fans always say it was McCartney and Lenon who wrote the best songs. I think the post Bettles work done by both demonstrates that McCartney did the heavy lifting of the duo.
Happy Easter everyone! Even the non Christians.
Try to keep up with the times, this is Trans Day of Visibility.
That's right! We'll cheers to you Alfred Horner Munro! The Inventor of the automatic transmission!
MAY 31st was his birthday, not MAR 31st.
Automatics suck. You'll have to pry my clutch pedal from my cold, dead foot.
You are one of those guys with shifty eyes.
If you're Trans and Visible, doesn't that mean you're invisible?
Only if you identify that way.
Transvisible.
Happy Gesture Day.
Actually, Christos Anesti!
Yesterday creamjeff regular fabricator used some Victorian received wisdom he picked up from Huffpo to try and justify the Whitehouse banning Christian iconography from its Easter egg hunt.
The origins of Easter Eggs aren't pagan, but stem from an early medieval story about an interaction between Mary Magdalene and the Emperor Tiberius.
The Story of Mary Magdalene and the First Easter Egg
Did Pagans use eggs as symbols of rebirth? Of course, in many different cultures. The analogy is obvious.
Is that the origin of Easter eggs? No.
"but stem from an early medieval story about an interaction between Mary Magdalene and the Emperor Tiberius."
That's so apocryphal it isn't even in the apocrypha.
"Easter eggs? No."
Now do reindeer.
Of course it’s apocryphal. It dates to the medieval, not late antiquity. The tale is well documented too in thousands of triptychs and medieval plays.
"The tale is well documented "
The tale is repeated again and again. That's not well documented. Certainly not in the bible which would be the most authoritative source. Decorating eggs goes back way beyond the times of Jesus and Christianity, which has a rich history of appropriating pagan practices and myths. Easter eggs are clearly Christian, however, as Easter is a Christian holiday. The origin of decorating eggs and associating them with rebirth though, goes back way before Mary Magdalene appeared on the scene.
Don't forget:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
"Certainly not in the bible which would be the most authoritative source."
Are you being a fucking idiot deliberately?
Me: "stem from an early medieval story"
You: "iT's noT iN tHe biBLe oR aPocRYphA"
Me: "Did Pagans use eggs as symbols of rebirth? Of course, in many different cultures. The analogy is obvious.
Is that the origin of Easter eggs? No."
You: "dEcoRAtinG egGs aNd asSOciAtiNG tHeM wiTH rEbiRtH tHoUgH, gOeS bAcK wAy bEFoRe MAry maGdALEne"
Maybe Jesse is right and you actually are a parody.
"Are you being a fucking idiot deliberately?"
No. If the bible doesn't mention decorated eggs and Mary Magdalene, it certainly didn't happen. The earliest sources are the most reliable. The later the date, the more dubious the story.
Easter and Easter eggs are both Christian in origin. Using decorated eggs to symbolize rebirth is pagan in origin and pre-Christian.
"Maybe Jesse is right and you actually are a parody."
Of course I'm a parody. No maybe about it. It doesn't change the validity of anything I've written here.
Probably my favorite story of the bible is about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. She was about to be stoned to death by an angry mob when Jesus intervened. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" he suggested, holding a stone out in his hand waiting for someone in the crowd to step forward and take it. Nobody did and the women went free. A beautiful story, but it never happened. It was never included in the earliest versions of the bible, and was only added hundreds of years after the first versions were written. The time line of the Mary Magdalene story clearly shows that it never happened for much the same reason. If it's not in the early scriptures, you should exercise maximum skepticism.
Anyone thinking any holy book is a source for history needs their head examined.
None of them get anything right. It's all tales told by syphalitic goat herders around the fire. Sometimes a merchant might join them and add tales from another region and the goat herders would steal those stories for their own god or gods.
The Abrahamic books are all full of stories like that. The worst is the Koran but that doesn't mean the other two are much better.
Jesus Chrome: Fury Tomb
"I live! I die! I live again!"
He just needed an update and reboot. The point of resurrection.
Easter celebrates Jesus regenerating into his second body. Then he left earth to travel time and space. Battling threats from beyond and unnatural monsters, like Hillary and her Marxist hordes.
To share the words of a fellow Atheist, Happy Respawn Day, celebrating the rise of Zombie Jesus!
🙂
😉
How dare you!
— Fascist Jeffy
Funny that you would say that about me. I have never said anything critical about the Easter holiday. It's almost as if you make up insults about me that are completely false.
You’re just generally an excruciating piece of shit about most things. Like wanting to allow illegals who are child molesters and rapists into he US.
Surprisingly, you’re discredited and wildly disliked here.
How open minded of you.
Spafford’s arguments are more complex than I can do justice to in a brief review, but here is a regrettably simplified sketch of some of his main lines of argument.
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”
This is just blatantly describing the communist utopia.
Still, this is an intelligently argued book that deserves careful reading and discussion—particularly among market libertarians, since it offers ingenious and powerful arguments, from premises many libertarians will find appealing, to conclusions that most libertarians will be eager to avoid.
No, this is Ivory Tower sophistry, attempting to co-opt libertarianism into an untenable position. Self-ownership is an inherent principle of libertarianism, and the ability to own one’s productive capacity and the fruits of that production has to necessarily follow from that. If I can’t choose who will use the things I produce, I have no freedom at all.
No, most anarchists have not come to the Marxist conclusion. In particular, the reviewed author seems to be saying either, “From each, nothing, and to each, nothing.” Or, “From each whatever they want to give, to each whatever they accept.”
And apparently you're unaware of the history of "libertarian", both by that word and generally. It wasn't an "inherent principle" by most who've used the word since it was coined.
“From each, nothing, and to each, nothing.”
Or, shorter version, everyone dies?
Anarchist only meant violent communist for a couple of centuries. Then it was retasked by those same looters as an insult to objectivists and libertarians. "We're your friends. Don't run away!"
Historically, most anarchists did come to Marxist principles, but only by abandoning anarchist principles. They lied when they continued calling themselves anarchists, especially to themselves. Like the "anarcho-syndicalists" Anarres in Ursula LeGuin's book _The Dispossessed_, they change the name of government and pretend it isn't government - even though it exerts far more control over their lives than the oppressive governments they revolted against ever did.
It manages to actually be even more retarded than actual Leninist Communism. At least Lenin would let you keep your own Five Year Toothbrush.
I remember my disgust when I learned there were anarchists who were so dead set against the very concept of property and possessions that they thought even toothbrushes should be communal.
Hate to tell you but for a long piece of history families would all share a tooth brush. Even worse, in Rome people used their own urine in cleaning their teeth.
History is mostly gross.
And how does a society based on social anarchist principles enforce this rather extreme and pervasive ethical code? It would seem to require a rather invasive authority to determine how each action might disadvantage someone else.
Depends whether they're pacifist anarchists or non-pacifist anarchists. And then whether nomistic or anomistic. You ever read Eltzbacher's survey, Anarchism?
Or, shorter version, everyone in society that doesn't agree must either be put to death or willingly choose death for the greater good?
Treating entire populations as if they all agree on one particular ethos sounds familiar. Where have I heard that before?
Oh, right. Capitalist societies can suffer communists to exist in society but communists can not suffer capitalists existence.
If your social system can only survive the people who 100% agree with you, it is valueless.
Yes! Contracts can simulate socialism in an individualistic society, but socialism cannot even tolerate individualism, let alone simulate it.
The point is, there's been analysis to classify forms of anarchism that people should read before wading into the subject.
See Mencken's The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche. See also Google News Archives. Every newspaper reference to anarchists before1972 was a reference to violent communists. Only after the Nixon looter subsidies law did looters tarbrush the LP as anarchist.
The article is written by a guy who appears to be part of this group
http://molinari.co/
Their shop sells stuff that say stop voting start building.
I think everyone here can see the logical inconsistencies in this
Fuck, that website design did everything wrong (short of the blink tag and under construction signs) in 1998 and hasn’t been updated since.
Anarchy is the tragedy of the commons for all things.
What could go wrong?
Anarchy is a fiction in the minds of people who think men won’t get together and use organized violence to steal. And then you have government.
Except elections. They would never dirty that sacrosanct act.
Considering we now have a shit ton of archy and things suck I don't know how anarchy could be worse.
Seattle is full of ‘anarchists’ demanding more government welfare programs.
Well, they are silly then.
It can always be worse.
I wonder how.
In most rural areas people operate on a sort of anarchy, they just get things done instead of waiting for the county or state governments to get it done.
When I was a kid we, my extended family, would kill and slaughter a shit ton of turkeys ducks and geese. This was so they could be donated to the churches so needy families would have a bird to serve on Christmas. Worked great until Game Fish and Parks decided my grandpa needed to get a license for each of the turkeys, geese and ducks we killed. They were domesticated. But the GFP couldn't allow a non governmental charity to exist and compete with the government.
Anarchy was providing folks with Christmas dinner, archy shut that down and let the poor folks suffer.
Harris's approval ratings hover under 40%, but she is also the U.S.'s most popular Democratic politician after Biden.
The Donkeys are doomed. The Donald is laughing.
most popular Democratic politician after Biden
Not certain that’s a compliment.
...
Lysander Spooner drew the line for non-propertarians as a physical connection to the body at that instant in time, because one could not disturb such a thing as clothing being worn or a pencil one was holding without jostling the person holding it.
But the toothbrush is a stupid example, because nobody wants your used toothbrush. Ewww.
I am physically connected to the air, hence you can no longer breathe.
No, only the air in your lungs at the moment. The rest of the air, being fluid, is not connected, period.
Actually, I use used toothbrushes for certain forms of art-working, and I also cut them up (to use the handles) as stiffeners and bulk fill when using plastic hot-melt for plastic "welding". Plastic trash can are flimsy (but cheap, of course), so I'm often repairing them (among other wood, metal, and plastic items). All true here, I am not bullshitting! Affordable and VERY useful! https://www.amazon.com/glue-guns/b?node=14138148011&tag=reasonmagazinea-20
Technique hints: Don't touch the hot glue! It "runs" and looks like snot! To prevent that, especially when trying to form "bulk", push the hot glue around, shape, and speed-cool it using ice cubes!
I'm sure used toothbrush porn is a thing
https://legalinsurrection.com/2024/03/matt-taibbi-was-asked-why-doesnt-he-pay-much-attention-to-the-sins-or-threats-from-the-right/
Matt Taibbi was asked “why doesn’t he pay much attention to the sins (or threats) from “the right”?”
He gave a great answer:
Why I don’t spend a lot of time on the Republicans:
1) There is a enormous army of MSM reporters already going after them from every angle, with most major news organizations little more than proxies for the DNC, to the point where stations hire Biden spokespeople as anchors;
2) The Republicans have very little institutional power nationally. It’s not their point of view prevailing in schools, on campuses, in newsrooms (where over 90% of working reporters vote blue), and especially in the intelligence and military apparatus, which has openly aligned itself with Democrats. Even if Donald Trump were a “threat to Democracy” he lacks the institutional pull to do much damage, which can’t be said of Democrats;
3) The Democrats’ ambitions are significantly more dangerous than those of the Republicans. From digital surveillance to censorship to making Intel and enforcement agencies central players in domestic governance — all plans being executed globally as well as in our one country — they are thinking on a much bigger and more dangerous scale than Republicans. I lived in third world countries and the endless criminal indictments of people like Trump and ongoing lawfare efforts to prevent even third party challenges are classic authoritarian symptoms. The Republicans aren’t near this kind of capability;
4) Last and most important, the Democrats are being organized around a more potent but also much dumber, more cultlike ideology. People like Yuval Harari and his Transhumanist “divinity” concept scare me a lot more than the Rs, and I was once undercover in an apocalyptic church in Texas. Ask your average Russian or Cuban what overempowered pseudo-intellectuals are capable of.
I have a pretty good record of picking dangerous phenomena ahead of time. I feel confident on this one, and that’s before we get to the demographic/class shifts in the parties.
That's why the "Giant Douche/Turd sandwich" analogy rings so hollow.
The Douche is still a douche, but Turds are incapable of capturing the clerisy and all institutional power (Except the Supremes but Roberts is working on that) while publicly advocating an explicitly authoritarian and anti-speech agenda like the Democrats have.
Remind me, which is the douche and which is the shit sandwich?
There's only a douche. Pol Pot sits where the turd sandwich once did.
Telling the looter kleptocracy factions apart was for a half-century one of the toughest problems facing the Libertarian Party. Now the hard part is telling the Mises Caucus from MAGAt Trumpanzees. It's like the GOP has been doing Marielito boatlifts shedding their anarco-undesirables onto the LP.
I thought the comparison was kinda dumb when I first heard it. Even so, I'll overanalyze and say while both are unpleasant things at least the douche has a practical productive use. The turd sandwich will only cause illness and filth
That's why I figured out a while ago they meant a used douche.
Yes we know. When you vastly overstate the threat from one party, then that one party looks like a vastly greater threat than any other.
What are you talking about? Biden is literally worse than Hitler! The FBI is literally the STASI! Immigrants are literally an invading army! The threat can’t be overstated! Literally!
Nobody said Biden was worse than Hitler, although there's a strong case to be made that after the NSDAP, the Democratic Party was the most genocidal party in the Western world.
But yes, there is no difference between the anti-speech, anti-human rights things the East German Stasi perpetrated, and he anti-speech, anti-human rights things the FBI are currently doing. The FBI truly are the American Stasi.
That explains why we live in a single party state, and dissenting media like Fox News and Reason don’t exist.
Look around, sarcasmic.
Fox news just paid a billion dollar liable settlement for something that recent months are showing was probably true, and Reason is definitely not dissenting in any way, shape, or form.
If you think the US is a "single party state", then how do you describe North Korea? East Germany? Soviet Union? Get real. If you go all the way to the most extreme and outrageous comparisons for things that are merely bad, then you have no words left to describe truly awful situations.
If you think the US is a “single party state”, then how do you describe North Korea? East Germany? Soviet Union?
Single party states. Just like the US.
Also "single party state" was Sarcasmic's phrase, not mine, but I'll go along with it.
So let's get this straight.
The Soviet Union was a "single party state" in which dissenters were thrown in prison without due process, it was a crime to speak out against the government, civil liberties were all heavily restricted to the point that open religious worship was banned and it was nearly impossible to leave the country.
The US is a "single party state" in which actual criminals who broke the law on Jan. 6 are thrown in prison after a trial and due process, it is not a crime to speak out against the government (it happens every single day and no one goes to prison for it), we have a great deal of civil liberties to do as we please - not as much as we should have, but a lot - and it is trivially easy to leave the country.
And yet they are both "the same" as "single party states".
Do you understand how absurd your comparison is?
Probably true? First I’ve heard of that. And Reason dissents all the time. All those articles where I make a wiseass comment about them not existing. You know, the ones the Reason haters ignore because they don’t further the “Reason is leftist” narrative.
And Reason dissents all the time. All those articles where I make a wiseass comment about them not existing.
I know you think you are making a home run when you post those, but go back and tell me which one is actual dissent.
They’ve changed their tune on several topics once they were convinced by the evidence. Same with me. Claiming someone is a liar because they contradict something they said years ago or holding a grudge because they weren’t with you in the beginning might be fun, but it only amounts to a personal attack while ignoring the topic. And on such articles that’s what most of the comments are.
I’m not trying for a home run because I’m not playing a game. I’m not on a side. I’m trying to have a conversation.
They'll need a few years to cow the masses with these political arrests you and Jeff cheer for.
This is absurd. The Stasi literally had informants in every single apartment building and workplace, reporting on "counter-revolutionary" speech and actions. Let me know when the FBI has agents in every single apartment building and workplace.
And this is all just a giant distraction, because the more time you can get people to discuss "Is the FBI the same as the Stasi? Yes or no?" then that means there is less opportunity for discussion on issues that matter, like spending or taxes. It's a dishonest attempt to entirely frame the discussion on turf that is more advantageous to you and your paranoid team rather than have to face difficult issues that your team cannot address, because your team is bankrupt of ideas.
I think the comparison is based on the FBI investigating J6 using social media. If you believe J6 was nothing but peaceful tourists milling about, then investigating the people is equivalent to STASI suppressing peaceful dissenters for purely political reasons. If you don’t buy those premises the comparison is absurd.
Well to ML and his crew, it isn't about ideas or principles, only people. The J6 rioters/criminals are on "his team" so he must defend them even with dishonest arguments.
"Well to ML and his crew"
By my "crew" do you mean the rest of the commentariat here who disagrees with your authoritarian prattle?
Half the time you can't even get sarcasmic to agree with your fascist posturing.
No kidding. The strongest crew herr is the idiots jeff has convinced over to the left like him, sarc, and shrike. Never will they disagree with each other. They build each others false narratives.
Meanwhile the rest of us have topics we disagree in, provide evidence to bolster our arguments, reference primary sources....
While jeff posts dark Brandon praising daily beast.
Meanwhile the rest of us have topics we disagree in, provide evidence to bolster our arguments, reference primary sources….
The disagreements are minor and are more style over substance. Occasionally people on your team have some substantive disagreement. But of anything of true significance, you all seem to march in lockstep.
Your "evidence", more often than not, are logical fallacies, and your "primary sources" are almost exclusively right-wing drivel.
"But of anything of true significance, you all seem to march in lockstep."
Perhaps because we're all libertarians on an ostensibly libertarian website, and you're a Nazi?
If you want to spend time with people who agree with you, go hang out at Salon or the Daily Kos.
you're all Trump bootlickers committed to the same narrative that Democrats = Evil. that is why you all march in lockstep. it certainly is not based on a commitment to liberty. and it certainly isn't because you're a bunch of free thinkers.
If we’re all Trump bootlickers (just ignore all the people, including ML and Jesse, who have disagreed with Trump on policy and handling of certain situations), then why do you continue to post here?
jeff, don’t play Jesse’s game of accusing anyone who disagrees with you or is just plain wrong of being a liar. Makes you a scumbag just like him. Unless that’s your goal.
Well this is dumb for even you as I'm disagreeing with people just up above. Youre leftist because you defend the left with bullshit like good intentions and pushing their false narratives. Plus your TDS.
Except it’s not just 1/6 ers you ignorant retard.
Sarc, this is why people know you're a partisan retard. ml gave you about a dozen examples yesterday, yes yesterday, of which you were present and commenting after they were posted... yet here you are forgetting you were given evidence as you demand we respect institutions captured by the left.
Let me know when the FBI has agents in every single apartment building and workplace.
How could anyone know if it was a secret?
“Let me know when the FBI has agents in every single apartment building and workplace.”
It’s called illegally monitoring social media and the internet, Jeff. Today's Stasi don’t have to bug a phone or install a listening device anymore when you have a phone in your pocket.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fbi-misused-intelligence-database-278000-searches-court-says-2023-05-19/
https://www.foxnews.com/us/fbi-interrogates-americans-over-social-media-posts-every-day-all-day-long-agent-says
This isn't the 1980's.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/05/19/fbi-misused-foreign-spy-database-to-target-jan-6-suspects-and-blm-protesters/
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2024/03/29/viral-videos-allege-bidens-fbi-is-making-house-calls-over-social-media-posts-1448872/
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/fbi-social-media-facebook-twitter-x-meetings-briefings-jordan-rcna144289
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/us/politics/fbi-violated-surveillance-program-rules.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/fbi-wrongly-searched-senator-section-702-spy-data-court-says-rcna95666
https://www.aclu.org/documents/more-about-fbi-spying
Sarc. Another 8 links for you to forget about like the retard you are.
You have to wonder how Fascist Jeffy thought he could get away with such a stupid claim.
I love how you flood the zone with eight different links as if sheer quantity is somehow meaningful here. But some of your links are duplicative and some are purely speculative. Of all of your links, only five different issues were discussed:
- The FBI improperly searched a FISA database about 278,000 times when it shouldn't have.
- The FBI talked with a Stillwater woman over some social media post.
- There is a video of a guy who claims to be an FBI agent meeting someone at the door to talk about "the Baton Rouge incident" - from the video we have no further idea of what this is about. It may or may not be a legitimate call.
- The FBI searched for info on a state senator and a judge when it shouldn't have.
- An ACLU history of when the FBI has behaved badly in the past.
Except for the third one, which we don't know much about from the evidence presented, they all look bad from the FBI's point of view. And I'm not defending their illegal and/or unethical conduct. It's wrong and should be stopped.
BUT, you didn't stop there. You had to go all the way, not just "they were wrong", to "THEY ARE THE STASI". And if they were the Stasi, they would not have "improperly" searched the FISA database *only* 278,000 times - they would have searched it millions and millions of times, on everyone, routinely, and it wouldn't have been 'improper' at all, but their ordinary job. They wouldn't have politely knocked on the door of that Stillwater woman - they would have disappeared her. They wouldn't have just searched the database for some judge's information - they would have arranged for his assassination. The Stasi were A LOT LOT WORSE than what the FBI is doing. No the FBI is not covering itself in glory and it should be reformed. But it's not the fucking Stasi.
That is what I am calling out here. Your team has no agenda, no policy, no vision, all you have is fearmongering and performative outrage. That is why you have no choice but to dial up every criticism to eleventy. Because that is your whole electoral strategy here. Scare people and make them afraid and/or outraged, and use that alone to drive them to the polls. It is cynical and wrong. It would help if you could actually discuss these things in a level-headed manner but you can't. Instead everything that Democrats does is "one step away from Nazi Germany". It's just boring and dumb.
If the FBI were the STASI, the people reporting that information would be in prison or worse, or we would never know because nobody would report on it at all.
They know this. They know the Stasi and the KGB were orders of magnitude worse than the FBI/CIA/NSA. That doesn't mean that the FBI/CIA/NSA don't do terrible things from time to time. Of course they do. But it is just not even in the same ballpark as bad as what the Stasi did.
They make these outlandish, absurdist comparisons because fear and hate are the only tools left in their toolbox. They don't have an agenda, a vision, policies, principles, or even ethics. All they have is blatant fearmongering and cheap demagoguery. Everything Democrats do is the worst thing ever, and that is their basic electoral strategy for winning in November. When that is the strategy, then it all makes sense. Everyone to the left of Ted Cruz is an Evil Fascist Hitler. Period, case closed.
I’m trying to give ML the benefit of the doubt and have an actual conversation. And so far there’s been no assholery for a couple days. Maybe you should try it.
Roberta had a great post a day or two ago about freedom or religion, and how we take it so for granted that we can’t comprehend what a state religion really is.
Maybe some of these guys really believe what they’re saying.
"Everyone to the left of Ted Cruz is an Evil Fascist Hitler. Period, case closed."
Sarcasmic, I want you to pay attention to the narrative Jeff is trying to spin here. He's not an effective politruk, but he is still a politruk.
Look at who I've posted links to in the last couple of days. Bret Weinstein, Glen Greenwald, Matt Shellenberger, Russell Brand, Jimmy Dore, Bari Weiss, Tulsi Gabbard, Dave Rubin, etc.
All people who ten years ago were believed by everyone to be firmly on the left and who haven't changed their core beliefs one iota. They just happened to have noticed that the Democrats and the establishment have become fascistic.
Who does Jeffy try to pretend we're quoting? Shaun Hannity and Ted Cruz.
Watch his little game that relies on tropes an innuendo. He's been a liar from the beginning.
I'm not talking about who you quote. I'm talking about who you criticize and who you defend. It was just a few days ago that you were mocking people who even brought up "Christian Nationalism". How is this not a fascistic threat from the right? If you claim to be "fighting fascism" why do you only ever see it coming from one place and not from all the places where it truly originates from?
Another case in point. Below you defend Trump in his stolen documents case. And how do you do this? You literally are repeating Trump's talking points. It is clear you haven't read the law, you haven't read the actual JW vs. NARA decision, you haven't read anything about it except what Trump and his enablers have told you about it. You are not an independent thinker on this matter. You haven't thought any more deeply about it beyond what the narrative-pushers on the right have said about it. So why is it, when you claim to be "fighting fascism", are your arguments almost literal copy-pasting what Trump's defenders are saying?
I'll give ML the benefit of the doubt the moment he stops calling me a Nazi.
Or you could be the bigger man and do it first.
Shouldn’t be hard to be bigger. He’s in Canada so he’s probably turtled up most of the time.
Because it’s cold. It’s a joke.
I have tried that. This is what I got in response: screaming, shouting, fallacies, stuffing words in my mouth, and being called a Nazi anyway.
I’ve refrained from saying Trump cultist and such during these conversations, and he hasn’t called me a leftist.
By treating him as an individual it’s gotten him to reciprocate.
So far so good.
Sarcasmic, the reason I won't stop calling Jeff a Nazi, is because I truly believe he is one.
I think his beliefs on social and sexual issues align with Ernst Röhm, his beliefs on religion align with Martin Bormann and Alfred Rosenberg, his beliefs in CRT aligns with Himmler's writings and he propagandizes for recent authoritarian excesses of the Democratic Party in the exact same manner as Goebbels. Jeff's economic policies line up with Nazi corporatism, and his view on Israeli Jews is essentially ethnic cleansing "from the river the sea".
Yeah sure. I am as much a "Nazi" as the FBI is "the Stasi".
I think his beliefs on social and sexual issues align with Ernst Röhm, his beliefs on religion align with Martin Bormann and Alfred Rosenberg, his beliefs in CRT aligns with Himmler’s writings and he propagandizes for recent authoritarian excesses of the Democratic Party in the exact same manner as Goebbels. Jeff’s economic policies line up with Nazi corporatism, and his view on Israeli Jews is essentially ethnic cleansing “from the river the sea”.
And yet you can never provide any quotes that even come close to me supporting any of this garbage. It is all nonsense. As just one example, take Alfred Rosenberg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg
This is not only bonkers, but nowhere have I ever even discussed this crap. Christianity as some race-based Nordic doctrine? This is bizarre and crap. You know it's crap.
And see, this is exactly what ML wants. He wants people to be discussing "are they Nazis? are they the Stasi?" Because it is just a giant distraction from their team's complete lack of any sense of policy or principle or vision. He knows that Team Red is in a very sorry state right now, they are in thrall to their cult leader and they are more interested in outrage and grievances than in advancing policy. Any team of any competence would be leading Dementia Joe by 40 points in the polls, and they would be too if they didn't repulse so many voters. So the ONLY WAY they can possibly win in November is by sheer terror - by instilling so much terror of The Other Team into enough people that they hold their nose and vote for their team in order to "stop the evil Nazis". And frankly that is a lot of the Team Blue playbook as well this election cycle, convincing enough people that if Trump is elected he will End Democracy and Install Himself As Nazi Dictator For Life. That is how this entire election cycle is going to be conducted. And libertarians are supposed to be above this nonsense and see through the cheap gimmickry that both teams are attempting. But not ML. Oh no no no.
“I love how you flood the zone with eight different links as if sheer quantity is somehow meaningful here.”
Wait. You’re bitching about the large number and varity of the examples?
I know you’re shit at your job, but damn. That’s not going to trick anyone.
Sure you fooled Sarc, but it’s five pm on a Sunday afternoon and he wants you to fool him, so that’s no achievement.
“That is what I am calling out here.”
Lol. You’re not calling anyone out. You’re prevaricating. You were given eight examples of the FBI doing extremely wrong, Stasi-like things, and you handwave them and say “They're not THAT bad”, and that’s you’re argument.
“Your team has no agenda, no policy, no vision, all you have is fearmongering and performative outrage.”
What “team” would that be? I’m not, nor do I ever plan to be an American.
Why the fuck would, let’s say, Jesse and I, have a common policy or vision?
What we have that unites us here in the comments, is opposition to the rise of fascist totalitarians in the West like you and your evil party. That’s it. Why the fuck should it be otherwise?
You were given eight examples of the FBI doing extremely wrong
Three of your links described the same event. You tried to fool everyone by flooding the zone with links that said the same thing.
Stasi-like things,
No they weren't. "Stasi-like things" would have been disappearing the woman from Stillwater or assassinating the judge.
“They’re not THAT bad”
No, that isn't what I'm saying. They are bad. They aren't as bad as THE STASI.
Can you at least admit that it is possible for someone to do something bad without it sinking to the level of STASI-BAD?
Why the fuck would, let’s say, Jesse and I, have a common policy or vision?
It is possible, you know, for people from different countries to share a similar vision or set of ideas.
What we have that unites us here in the comments, is opposition to the rise of fascist totalitarians in the West
But that's not true. You only seem to see 'fascist totalitarianism' coming from one direction. You openly mock the idea that there can be fascists on the right. There are real no-shit Nazis parading around and supporting Trump and yet whenever it comes up you dismiss it as "FBI plants" or somesuch. You completely dismiss the idea of Christian Nationalism, which more than one Republican politician has espoused. You see nothing wrong with the government forcing its moral views on the public when it comes to transgenderism or abortion. You are NOT opposed to fascism. You are opposed to "the Left" only.
“Sure you fooled Sarc, but it’s five pm on a Sunday afternoon and he wants you to fool him, so that’s no achievement”
Don’t be a dick. Agreeing on something isn’t fooling, and the people the alcohol comments impress aren’t worth impressing.
I’m not defending the FBI, however nobody has knocked on my door. Given what I say about the government, and I’m not shy in public, if the FBI really was like the STASI that wouldn’t be the case.
I’m sure if someone doxxed you you could get into real trouble with your government with some of the things you’ve said.
Do you really believe what you are saying, or just being hyperbolic to make a point?
The internet is in every apartment building and workplace, and the FBI/NSA is monitoring all of it you glorious bootlicker.
There are rules for how the government may access this data. The rules are probably inadequate, and need to be reformed, but again it's not the Stasi.
If this were the Stasi, then (a) there would be no rules, and (b) people expressing unpopular opinions would simply be disappeared.
Why do you all have to go all the way to the most outlandish comparison?
There are rules for how the government may access this data.
Are you trying to be funny?
But it's true. The rules aren't strict enough, but the rules do exist.
Unlike, say, East Germany, where the only rule was "the government may do as it pleases".
Did you forget Edward Snowden already?
What about spending? Obviously there is too much spending. What spending should be cut? What should be cut first? What duties should the government continue to do, and what should be devolved to the states?
What about taxes? Are taxes too high or too low? Is the tax burden among various people fairly distributed, or not? Should we have a flat tax? "Fair tax"? What about a negative income tax (a Friedman idea)?
You and your team don't want to discuss these, you would rather talk about "OMG STASI".
“Christian nationalists” having any meaningful success in making the US a Christian nation to the exclusion of the hundreds of millions of non Christians in this country is way, way more far fetched than domestic intelligence agencies doing horrible things to people they don’t like. And their job is made much easier by idiots like you pissing yourself about impossibilities and nonsensical threats.
Moron.
I’m not defending the FBI. Like the ATF they’re basically a rogue agency that does what it wants.
I’ll concede your point when people have real reason to fear a visit from agents for speaking out against the government.
How gracious of you to concede a simple fact. Yet tomorrow you'll be right back to denying it and calling it a conspiracy theory.
It IS kind of odd that only now, with girl-bullying Mises-christian anarcho-fascists hijacking the LP, that FBI terrorist-hunters have suddenly taken an interest in what was once the party of the NAP. Here's hoping the entire shrewdness of infiltrating Trumpista shills wakes up under the jail.
10 yard penalty for too much useless jargon.
Wow. You got a whole wall of grey box responses to that one in just 14 minutes! They must be really mad.
Ironically, the Germans are also emulating the Stasi these days. And it’s a state offense to say so.
https://www.eugyppius.com/p/german-domestic-intelligence-services-9b8
https://www.eugyppius.com/p/german-democracy-researchers-publish
The irony of this comment is strong with these 2 actually trying to link Trump to Hitler for a week.
1) There is a enormous army of MSM reporters already going after them from every angle, with most major news organizations little more than proxies for the DNC, to the point where stations hire Biden spokespeople as anchors;
Might I remind you that Fox News is the biggest MSM news channel that exists, they literally hire Republican politicians, and in the case of Sean Hannity, was a literal mouthpiece for Trump.
2) The Republicans have very little institutional power nationally. It’s not their point of view prevailing in schools, on campuses, in newsrooms (where over 90% of working reporters vote blue), and especially in the intelligence and military apparatus, which has openly aligned itself with Democrats.
Oh give me a break. Most institutions that he mentions here, such as schools, are not a bunch of radical left-wingers, they may be described as slightly left-of-center, but overall, they are better described as risk-averse and *conservative* in the sense of being averse to change. It is much more non-ideological, pragmatic, and risk-averse. By contrast, the Republican idea for how to run these institutions is very much more ideological. Ask Republicans (in general) how a school should be run, and they will give you a direct specific answer, and if you disagree then too bad, your duty is to conform or else. They leave little room for dissent.
3) The Democrats’ ambitions are significantly more dangerous than those of the Republicans. From digital surveillance to censorship to making Intel and enforcement agencies central players in domestic governance — all plans being executed globally as well as in our one country — they are thinking on a much bigger and more dangerous scale than Republicans.
How is this limited to Democrats? Republicans joined in enthusiastically with the Patriot Act, it keeps getting renewed every year with bipartisan support, and for every Democrat who thinks that "MAGA" should be put on some government watchlist, you can find a Republican who thinks that "Antifa" or "Communist" should be put on a government watchlist.
I lived in third world countries and the endless criminal indictments of people like Trump and ongoing lawfare efforts to prevent even third party challenges are classic authoritarian symptoms.
In France, two former presidents went to jail for corruption. In South Korea, several former prime ministers have been convicted. Are these "third world countries" just engaging in "lawfare"? Perhaps Mr. Taibbi should be reminded that a country that permits its leaders to get away with blatantly illegal behavior is also a sign that the country is corrupt.
If you go listen to Reason's podcast interview with Matt Taibbi, he is quite open in saying that the reason why he left Rolling Stone and pursued his own independent career, was for the money. He could make a lot more as a Substack entrepreneur and freelance reporter than working for RS. And he found his audience: right-wingers willing to listen to endless stories of their enemies behaving badly. Because he is right that there already is a saturation of writers saying mean things about Republicans, so the market competition for that space is a lot fiercer. Taibbi can make a lot more money telling Republicans how the Democrats are evil and awful. And that's what he has done. The above is just a rationalization for his business scheme.
“Might I remind you that Fox News is the biggest MSM news channel that exists, they literally hire Republican politicians, and in the case of Sean Hannity, was a literal mouthpiece for Trump.”
Might I remind you, shill, that that’s one channel out of hundreds. Might I remind you also, that they suddenly fired their biggest anti-establishment draw for no reason, and it’s not Hannity. Might I also remind you that the one they fired was the one guy not implicated in their billion dollar settlement with the Soros lawyers working for Dominion.
” Most institutions that he mentions here, such as schools, are not a bunch of radical left-wingers”
It always blows my mind how you think everyone will just up and accept your crazy statements. Like the current university foofaraw with Harvard and all isn’t happening.
“How is this limited to Democrats? Republicans joined in enthusiastically with the Patriot Act
The Patriot Act is 22 years old, and all the anti-speech, anti-liberty stuff that the Democrats are doing is right now. Also, if you weren’t being a purposefully ignorant fuck, you would admit that Taibbi has been railing against the Patriot Act for decades now.
Also, it seems that you deliberately forgot this:
Patriot Act surveillance powers left unrenewed after Trump threatens veto
You’re such a dishonest piece of shit, Jeff.
“Perhaps Mr. Taibbi should be reminded that a country that permits its leaders to get away with blatantly illegal behavior is also a sign that the country is corrupt.”
Pick something Trump is currently charged with Jeff, and explain how it was illegal before Trump was charged with it.
When I say you’re a Nazi it’s not hyperbole.
that’s one channel out of hundreds.
Oh you're right. I forgot about the Gardening Channel and the Puppy Channel.
Never mind that regardless of how popular the Puppy Channel is, Fox News is the most popular MSM *news* channel and nothing you wrote refutes that.
It always blows my mind how you think everyone will just up and accept your crazy statements. Like the current university foofaraw with Harvard and all isn’t happening.
It's an example of universities NOT being ideological when they should be in this case. They ought to be making a firm stance in favor of free speech but they instead are too deferential to forces that they shouldn't be. As I said: risk-averse, and slow to change.
The Patriot Act is 22 years old, and all the anti-speech, anti-liberty stuff that the Democrats are doing is right now.
Also, it seems that you deliberately forgot this:
I love how you do the most superficial of searches and then think that this proves anything.
First your article is about FISA, not the Patriot Act. You dishonestly conflate the two.
But if you want to talk about FISA, even Wikipedia is more informed than you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act
Who was in charge on Jan. 19, 2018? Hmm, I know.
Also, look at what Tom Cotton tried to do. Is he "GOPe" now?
Pick something Trump is currently charged with Jeff, and explain how it was illegal before Trump was charged with it.
The Espionage Act has been on the books for a while now, and you know it.
But let's just get this kabuki out of the way:
You are going to claim "Judicial Watch vs. NARA showed Trump had legal authority to take those documents". That claim is false. JW vs. NARA only showed that NARA cannot retroactively reclassify personal documents as government documents. Trump took government documents, that he knew were government documents, then tried to claim that they were really his documents when they weren't. He also lied about it and tried to cover it up.
You are going to claim "but Hillary wasn't charged for the same thing". Even if true - it doesn't make what Trump did correct or legal.
“Oh you’re right. I forgot about the Gardening Channel and the Puppy Channel.
The horse laugh/ad absurdo. Classic Jeffy.
There are 23 other major news outlets in the states, all who lean Democrat. However this cheap shill pretends it’s all about fringe cabal.
What a piece of shit.
“First your article is about FISA, not the Patriot Act. You dishonestly conflate the two.”
Pulling a Buttplug and didn’t read the article, huh? Here’s another one that isn’t paywalled that says it’s expressly the Patriot Act!
The House just ditched a bill that would renew and expand the FBI’s surveillance powers after Trump threatened to veto it
Excerpt: ”
The House of Representatives abandoned a plan to pass a reauthorization of the Patriot Act Thursday after President Donald Trump tweeted that he would veto the bill if it passes.
The bill, which faced mounting opposition from privacy advocates and civil liberties groups, lost needed support from Republicans after Trump’s tweet. House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said in a statement that most of the 126 Republicans who voted for an earlier version of the bill changed their minds after Trump’s tweet.
The bill would have reauthorized key provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which grants surveillance powers to the FBI that were initially passed via the Patriot Act after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Those provisions expired more than two months ago.
Now what, you dishonest shilling piece of shit. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??
Everyone here doesn’t call you Lying Jeffy for nothing.
“It’s an example of universities NOT being ideological when they should be in this case.”
Oh fucking wow! This is HO2/Bears in trunks territory. Universities are advocating antisemitic behavior because they’re not ideological enough. That one isn’t going to even fool sarcasmic.
“But let’s just get this kabuki out of the way”
Well, even though you try to handwave it away as Kabuki, your goosestepping fascist ass still acknowledges you know about the legal precedent.
That claim is false. JW vs. NARA only showed that NARA cannot retroactively reclassify personal documents as government documents. Trump took government documents, that he knew were government documents, then tried to claim that they were really his documents when they weren’t. He also lied about it and tried to cover it up.”
Here’s where you lie and pretend that JW vs. NARA didn’t establish that the president is the final arbiter of what is personal and what isn’t and what he can take.
“You are going to claim “but Hillary wasn’t charged for the same thing”.
Oh look, Jeff is sticking words in peoples mouths again.
I would never claim what Hillary, Pence or Biden did was the same thing, because none of them were president when they took those documents and didn’t have the authority.
What Trump did is comparable to what Obama and Bill Clinton did, and neither of them were charged, you Nazi twat.
It helps to tell jeff to sit down and eat a twinkie. It makes him hungry and he will disappear for a few hours.
You ignored my entire quotation which demonstrated that Republicans supported and Trump supported reauthorizing FISA back in 2018. Because it undercuts your argument that Republicans are supposedly some champion of liberty.
There are 23 other major news outlets in the states, all who lean Democrat.
That's not true, you are ignoring OANN and NewsMax. But even still - FOX NEWS IS LARGER THAN THEM ALL. You don't dispute this because it undercuts your entire argument that "the media is Democrat". Number of channels is meaningless when compared to the viewership. Those other channels might as well be the Puppy Channel.
Universities are advocating antisemitic behavior because they’re not ideological enough.
But the university administration isn't "advocating antisemitic behavior". Some of their students are, and the universities are being too permissive towards them. Because they don't want to upset their students. They should be willing to tell them to knock it off, but they aren't. This is you ascribing evil motives to them because they are on the other team.
JW vs. NARA didn’t establish that the president is the final arbiter of what is personal and what isn’t
No. NARA can't change the president's decision. That is what that case decided. THE LAW determines which documents are personal and which aren't. And that decision is made *when the document is first created*. The classification can't be changed later without going through a process, which Trump didn't do. Just read the fucking law and stop listening to the lying liars on the right.
and what he can take.
No. THE LAW says that the president cannot take presidential documents. He can only take personal documents. You are just wrong.
Trump stole documents that didn't belong to him. That is illegal.
Huh. ML had the time to call me a Nazi for the Nth time, but he couldn't be bothered to respond substantively to this argument. Wonder why that is. Because responding substantively to this requires work. Calling me a Nazi is just a cheap shot that he does for the thrill.
“There are 23 other major news outlets in the states, all who lean Democrat. However this cheap shill pretends it’s all about fringe cabal.”
But it’s the most popular!!!1!1!1!1!
Just ignore that they routinely push the governments narrative too.
From digital surveillance to censorship
One more point:
Even from Taibbi's own Twitter Files, there were only a few instances where Twitter execs expressed that they felt threatened or uneasy with wanting to remove/demote content that the government wanted them to. The vast majority of the time, the Twitter execs happily complied. Libertarians here really need to figure out which they value more: private property, or the *ethos* of free speech.
If you value private property, then Twitter execs can take down posts that they want, even if the government doesn't make any suggestions about it. Pointing out that the government did suggest it is just a red herring in this case, because the execs would have done so anyway (most of the time).
But if you value the *ethos* of free speech to the extent that you think private property rights should be restricted to this extent, then this necessarily means that the government should in effect be running these social media companies for the purposes of "protecting free speech".
That's a solvable problem.
Utility law already is practiced for other mediums, why should social media be different.
Because social media is not a utility.
The utility, in this case, is the Internet backbone itself.
It would be like declaring grocery stores to be "public utilities".
They are treated like that
We call that non-discrimination law.
Grocery stores will kick me out if I make a bunch of trouble for them, their products, or their other customers. Government Almighty doesn't run privately owned grocery stores, and it shouldn't run privately owned web sites either.
Sqrlsy is right. Non-discrimination law is not the proper analogy here.
It's perfectly valid.
Beyond paying and violence, businesses cannot refuse you service due to anti- discrimination laws.
They can refuse service due to being disruptive or otherwise breaking their rules. And that is what the social media companies did.
And that is solvable, as I've already said.
It won't be cheap for them, but we already have examples of it working
So you want the government to nationalize social media companies?
I can conceive of a future where it can work.
It isn't my first choice though.
Classic Jeffy. He loses the argument so he rewords his opponents statement to mean something other than what he actually said.
Do they teach you that at Lying Douchebag university or did you come up with the technique yourself?
Too funny. I ask a question of Nobartium – not stuffing words into his mouth, but asking a question of him to answer – Nobartium essentially agrees with how I phrased the question, then ML comes along 3 minutes later to say “chemjeff is being dishonest”.
Being dishonest would be repetitively calling me a Nazi and using disingenuous arguments in order to implement your team’s cynical strategy to win by fear rather than to win on a positive agenda.
Just to show how dishonest you are: Nobartium writes explicitly "I can conceive of a future where it can work", referring to nationalization of social media companies. And ML instead of criticizing the guy who is pro-nationalization, spends all his time attacking me as the villain. Because the ideas literally don't matter to you. All that matters is identifying and targeting the villain. That is YOUR WHOLE STRATEGY. Nobartium and everyone else on your tribe can advocate for whatever stupid ideas that they want but you will spend your time villainizing the outsiders to gin up hate and fear.
Nobartium: "Utility law already is practiced for other mediums, why should social media be different."
Jeffy: "So you want the government to nationalize social media companies?"
I rest my case.
Nobartium: “Utility law already is practiced for other mediums, why should social media be different.”
Jeffy: “So you want the government to nationalize social media companies?”
At least 2 bases have to be stolen to reach this, but I'll be generous, and give him one.
"Do they teach you that at Lying Douchebag university or did you come up with the technique yourself?"
He's got a doctorate in Assholery.
No widespread government threats.
“…. there were only a few instances….”
Oh, well since you put it that way…..
Lol.
That’s why I changed his name to Fascist Jeffy. He’s projecting when he talks about others being so tribal, because here he is defending the FBI abusing people’s rights because he thinks they’re doing it to the other tribe. He’s a truly disgusting person.
This is where you all do not deserve to be taken seriously. No one here has defended what the FBI did. But it is you and your team which is objecting to what the FBI did in the most absurdist and ridiculous manner possible, by comparing them to Stasi. They are not Stasi. They are not close to Stasi. That is not "defending the FBI". That is putting the issue into proper context and not the absurdist theater that you paranoid clowns like to put it in to.
You didn’t defend it, just excused it.
“…,paranoid clowns…” = anyone who worries about “Christian nationalism”.
Spafford grounds his case for social anarchism in what he notes is a "recurrent theme in libertarian thought," namely that "persons should not be allowed to discretionarily impose costs upon others." In Spafford's hands, this commitment becomes a "Moral Tyranny Constraint" that forbids anyone to "unilaterally, discretionarily, and foreseeably act in a way that would leave others with less advantage than they would have possessed had the agent made some other choice."
I stopped reading here. I've never read or heard a single libertarian articulate this attitude. This guy is just making up shit so he can justify his communism. Next.
"AcCHUllY liBerTarienZ are coMMunIst liKE mE". lol. what a maroon
It’s the leftist way. Either refuse to define things or define everything in a way that only permits your argument. They refuse to adhere to concrete definitions or historical and widely accepted concurrence until they have the power to control it
I’ve never read or heard a single libertarian articulate this attitude.
if you only read the Ron Paul version of libertarianism, this is understandable
You always spit out "Ron Paul" like it's an epithet.
Because he is a liberal trying to gaslight weak minded libertarians like sarc.
Note he didn’t actually provide an example of any libertarians that have articulated the idea.
Exactly like every other slimy lamprey fastening onto the LP to drag us into one or the other force-initiating looter factions. Those spoiler votes have royally spooked the communo-fascist champions of altruism!
Lol. Hank, your “spoiler votes” ain’t spooking nobody. They won’t matter.
Spafford grounds his case for social anarchism in what he notes is a "recurrent theme in libertarian thought," namely that "persons should not be allowed to discretionarily impose costs upon others."
This is not extreme, it is just a stronger version of the NAP, where if you think of "aggression" as a form of "discretionarily impos[ing] costs upon others". Spafford's version is just broader, suggesting that it also applies to, e.g., acts of negligence. Which is, admittedly, where a lot of libertarians have trouble.
Suppose, in Libertopia, a restaurant owner runs a restaurant that is filthy and serves spoiled food. A customer nonetheless eats the food and gets sick. Is the restauranteur liable in any way for the customer's illness? If so, on what basis? The restauranteur might argue "well, it was the bacteria in the food that made him sick, I didn't intentionally put the bacteria in there, so I didn't commit aggression against him, and besides, caveat emptor and all that." The proper response here IMO is that the restauranteur is at a minimum guilty of negligence, because there is an expectation for any business owner to run a business in such a way that doesn't make customers ill. He didn't intentionally put the bacteria in the food, but he should have known better than to serve bacteria-filled food to customers. And if the NAP cannot accommodate this situation then the NAP is too narrow and ought to be broadened as a guiding principle for libertarian thought.
What about gain of function experiments?
Let's take your example as given - now, who holds the restauranteur 'responsible'? By what mechanism?
From my perspective, the restauranteur is guilty of the crime of negligence, and I would hope that a just justice system would hold this person responsible. If we are in a libertarian-oriented system, then it would probably be in the form of a tort after the fact.
But, if that is the case, then it would mean that the concept of "aggression" as encapsulated in the NAP would have to include the concept of negligence. Is negligence a form of aggression? If not, then by what mechanism would the restauranteur be held accountable under a libertarian system?
The market does fix this problem on its own. People tell everyone they can how awful the restaurant is. People quit dining there. The restaurant goes out of business.
Yes, long term, businesses which offer poor service don't survive in the marketplace. But that does not address the more immediate problem of individuals seemingly harmed by that poor service.
Charles Julius Guiteau. a looter parasite, shot President Garfield in the back, then argued he'd only shot Garfield. The doctors were the ones that killed him!
Social Anarchism and the Rejection of Moral Tyranny
lol, try again.
Happy Easter everyone.
Happy Easter everyone, indeed; YES, this! To EVERYONE! Including the Womb Slaves yearning to be FREE, too!!!
Tablet Magazine
The President’s War Against the Jews
Earlier this month, a U.N. report from its Office of the Special Representative of the Secretary General revealed what Israel has been saying for months, namely that Hamas committed the most vile sexual violence and torture on Oct. 7, and such treatment likely continues to be perpetrated on hostages. Experts from the U.N.—an organization that is routinely hostile to the Jewish state—actually found “clear and convincing information that some [hostages] have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence including rape and sexualized torture and sexualized cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and it also has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.”
In reaction, Joe Biden’s State Department chose to level the charge of sexual abuse—at Israel. Recently, IDF Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amir Avivi recounted his meeting with a senior State Department official—since identified as Jill Hutchings, director of the Office of Israeli and Palestinian Affairs—who proceeded to accuse Israel of “systematically sexually abusing Palestinian women.” The State Department’s claim was based on information from Hamas pushed by Al Jazeera—which ended up deleting the story after it proved to be fabricated.
"...The State Department’s claim was based on information from Hamas pushed by Al Jazeera—which ended up deleting the story after it proved to be fabricated."
Well, shucks!
As soon as I see the word forbid, I know we're talking force initiated by someone, presumably the government. So this can hardly be a libertarian argument.
Families that share literally everything are deep in poverty, beyond our imagination. If people voluntarily choose to share their toothbrushes, so be it. Not for me, thank you.
The other giveaway is "advantage" as a verb. If I take a breath, I'm disadvantaging someone who might have consumed some of that same air. If I find a tasty morsel in the forest, and eat it, I'm disadvantaging someone else who might have found it and eaten it. If I exchange the tasty morsel for a pretty rock that someone else has found, we're jointly disadvantaging those who didn't find pretty rocks.
Just nonsense.
It's the fixed-pie fallacy Leonard Peikoff and John Ridpath exposed as fraud in 1984. I met Ridpath on the UT campus soon after. He brought out that Atlas was selling 100,000 copies a year, decade after decade. So... how many murdering anarchist books do that?
>Is he right?
No. No, he is not.
See, the thing here is that there's no such thing as 'left-libertarianism'.
Libertarianism doesn't have anything to say about how you organize labor and capital - except that its voluntary. So if you want pool your labor and capital in a socialist collectve go right ahead. If its voluntary - its just libertarianism. No 'left', no 'right', just libertarianism. If its not voluntary - then its not libertarianism.
Except that "libertarian" was a euphemism for mostly non-propertarian forms of "anarchist" before it acquired the meaning you're familiar with.
Pure BS. Communists now rake history to find antique scribblings on bathroom walls in an effort to tarbrush the LP as violent communists. Anarchist has always meant violent communist assassin. Search "arnychist" if you doubt it. Mr Dooley is the record looters struggle to evade yet cannot memory-hole out of existence.
No, seriously, look up the Libertarian Book Club, for instance. Most of them were nonplussed when people stated using “libertarian” to mean what it does in the Libertarian Party, for instance. And in Europe the latter meaning never caught on much.
BTW, my copy of the English translation of that Eltzbacher book I mentioned upthread was a Libertarian Book Club edition. That was their purpose originally: getting back into print some classics of anarchist lit.
"...Spafford grounds his case for social anarchism in what he notes is a "recurrent theme in libertarian thought," namely that "persons should not be allowed to discretionarily impose costs upon others." In Spafford's hands, this commitment becomes a "Moral Tyranny Constraint" that forbids anyone to "unilaterally, discretionarily, and foreseeably act in a way that would leave others with less advantage than they would have possessed had the agent made some other choice." ..."
This is a challenge only if you wish to grant sophistry some degree of legitimacy.
In order to comply with this dictum, we would all need 100% accurate crystal balls; this argument (like that for socialism) fails simply by the requirement of perfection.
Utopia is not an option; ignore any claims for such and deal with reality and compromises.
The mystery of how hundreds of millions of people of color became dubbed the the largest far right force on the planet.
Why the Far Right Rules Modi’s India
Moral tyranny is the best tyranny.
Also, crony capitalism is the best capitalism.
Any more 21st century American "bests"?
The BEST One-Party state is the USA under One-Party Donaldism!!!
Long Live Dear Leader!!!
I thought Encog was in Charlotte?
https://davebondydigital.com/bibles-intentionally-set-on-fire-in-tennessee/
I have explicitly said before that I don't burn books or anything else as part of any.protest and I only expose bullshit or point the way to better thoughts.
But since you go on feelz and rumors and bullshit as your guide to life, I'll let you think what you want about where I am. Dummy!
Have fun trying to find me! I won't miss you! And have fun sucking up to Theocrats and other vermin!
It was a fucking joke. Lighten up Francis.
By the bye, Greg Locke, the Pastor of the Global Vision Bible Church near the burning truck of Bibles is a bit of a fire-bug himself:
Pastor holds bonfire to burn to 'witchcraft' books like 'Twilight'
Tennessee Pastor Greg Locke claimed that the church had a "constitutional right and a Biblical right" to burn "occultic materials" like the "Harry Potter" and "Twilight" books.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pastor-holds-bonfire-burn-witchcraft-books-twilight-rcna14931
Greg Locke also harbors serious delusions about the healing of human afflictions and diseases and a persecution complex about Christians in the U.S.
Pro-Trump Pastor Furiously Denies Claiming People in Wheelchairs Lack Faith in God
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/pro-trump-pastor-furiously-denies-claiming-people-in-wheelchairs-lack-faith-in-god/ar-AA1ik0yT
Could this be a case of "He who smelt it, dealt it" like other alleged "hate crimes" against houses of worship in the past? Can Greg Locke's account and perspective on anything be trusted?
"...Must investigate further..." --Rorschach.
While whoever created a fire and explosion hazard by burning a truckload of Bibles was in the wrong, I hope every wheelchair-bound member of that Church cuts off both their membership and tithes, buys Cybernetic limbs, and gives Greg Locke a big Cybernetic middle finger and grabs their Go-Go Gadget crotches at him and his Ministry!
Bye, Bible Bitch!
“Bye, Bible Bitch!”
Lol, I’m agnostic. If some pastor is wasting his resources gathering up withcraft books to burn he’s as dumb as you are for buying Bibles to hide atheist texts in them.
I don’t really think you were in Tennessee burning bibles. That’s the joke.
Thinking that you'll get anywhere with Theocrats while being Agnostic is the real joke. They only have Hell-on-Earth now and eternal Hell in the alleged Afterlife to offer. Don't stay in the line for the allegator feeding trough.
Agnostic is what you call yourself so your Christian mother holds out hope that you will come back to her god.
Get off the fence and pick a side. Theist or non theist. Do you believe in superstitious bull shit or do you not believe in superstitious bull shit. Saying you kind of believe is like saying you're a little bit pregnant.
Greg Locke needs to study His Bible HARDER and crank it up just a very few notches!
God COMMANDS us to kill EVERYONE!
Our that them thar VALUES of society outta come from that them thar HOLY BIBLE, and if ya read it right, it actually says that God wants us to KILL EVERYBODY!!! Follow me through now: No one is righteous, NONE (Romans 3:10). Therefore, ALL must have done at least one thing bad, since they’d be righteous, had they never done anything bad. Well, maybe they haven’t actually DONE evil, maybe they THOUGHT something bad (Matt. 5:28, thoughts can be sins). In any case, they must’ve broken SOME commandment, in thinking or acting, or else they'd be righteous. James 2:10 tells us that if we've broken ANY commandment, we broke them ALL. Now we can’t weasel out of this by saying that the New Testament has replaced the Old Testament, because Christ said that he’s come to fulfill the old law, not to destroy it (Matt. 5:17). So we MUST conclude that all are guilty of everything. And the Old Testament lists many capital offenses! There’s working on Sunday. There’s also making sacrifices to, or worshipping, the wrong God (Exodus 22:20, Deut. 17:2-5), or even showing contempt for the Lord’s priests or judges (Deut. 17:12). All are guilty of everything, including the capital offenses. OK, so now we’re finally there... God’s Word COMMANDS us such that we’ve got to kill EVERYBODY!!!
(I am still looking for that special exception clause for me & my friends & family… I am sure that I will find it soon!)
Don’t forget… The above ALSO applies to Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells!!!
The entry point to the above-listed Deep Biblical Analysis is…
No one is righteous, NONE (Romans 3:10).
That means that NOT EVEN THE SACRED FARTILIZED EGG SMELLS are righteous! NO exception was listed for egg smells, fartuses, etc.! And if you follow the rest of the Biblical-literalness LOGICAL argument laid out above, then the Bible actually commands us to KILL said Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells!!!
WHERE are the Biblical literalists when we desperately NEED them?!?!
Libertarians have traditionally distinguished between different ways of imposing costs on others, with some ways—those involving "aggression" (however defined)—being subject to much more stringent prohibitions than the rest. I think Spafford is right that those who find it problematic to impose costs on others via aggression should also find it problematic to impose costs on others via non-aggressive means; but I think he is too hasty in assuming that they should find it problematic in the same degree, licensing prohibitions of equal stringency.
Long seems to almost admit that defining "aggression" is going to be a essential component of any effort to draw lines distinguishing between aggressive and non-aggressive imposed costs.
Nor was this appropriation of any parcel of land, by improving it, any prejudice to any other man, since there was still enough and as good left, and more than the yet unprovided could use. So that, in effect, there was never the less left for others because of his enclosure for himself. For he that leaves as much as another can make use of, does as good as take nothing at all. Nobody could think himself injured by the drinking of another man, though he took a good draught, who had a whole river of the same water left him to quench his thirst. And the case of land and water, where there is enough of both, is perfectly the same.
John Locke, Second Treatise of Government
Long references this concept taken from Locke's writing and coined the Lockean Proviso by Robert Lozick. This is interesting to me given the libertarian views on private property. Free market idealists (libertarian, conservative, or other) usually seem to place private property at the center of their ideas. They also don't seem to see any moral quandaries with the accumulation of great wealth, as long as it is done through the free exchange of capital and labor. That seems contradictory, as the accumulation of great wealth by few individuals is based on ownership of resources that are then unavailable to other people. How does this Lockean Proviso deal with things like mineral rights, in particular, where the resource is finite? Or fresh water for irrigation, industry, and drinking and other residential uses?
Where is your OUTRAGE? Where is your absurdist theater comparing Biden to Nazis and comparing the FBI to the Stasi? Sorry, but without performative outrage theater and ridiculous comparisons, you are just not welcome here. Only progressive left-wingers - or worse yet, COMMUNISTS - discuss issues without taking the emotional knee-jerk reactions up to eleventy. Real Libertarians must compare every bad thing to the worst thing ever.
Poor sarc
You could fill a library with all the leftard criminal propaganda of contradictory ideas in the pursuit of selfish armed-theft.
This one, "So you labored to 'own' something but since you're my slave you don't own it [WE] do and thus you are but a [WE] mob slave but really you're free because you are a [WE] mob slave."
Yet at the end of every free and civil society the truth must be accepted ... IF YOU WANT IT EARN IT and if you EARN it you should own it. The only human asset of a monopoly of 'gov' guns is to ensure Individual Liberty and Justice for all within that aspect.
At $110 I hope left-anarchists are stealing every copy of the book so they can make it free for others to read.
Why don't comuno-fascists make their own party and call it the Social Anarchist party, much like Lenin challenged them to do back about 1905? Anarchists were specifically banned from entering These States, along with syphilitics, madmen, congenital idiots, murderers, and let's not forget impecunious Chinamen. Starting with Murry Rottbutt, the looter persuasion has paid any price, borne any burden, met any hardship, supported any fiend, opposed any friend to assure the death and failure of the libertarian party. From Dallas to Reno their girl-bullying and terrorist infiltrators have sabotaged LP planks and perverted our principles. But where's THEIR party?
Yet ONE MORE WAY about how ML is a dishonest asshole, and by extension, how the Team Red media bubble is just an outrage factory not interested in truth or even fairly informing the viewers.
Here is ML's post from yesterday, about the White House banning religious-themed artwork from Easter eggs in the WH event:
https://reason.com/2024/03/30/statelet-of-survivors/?comments=true#comment-10504122
His clear intent here is to make Joe Biden seem like some elitist anti-Christian snob looking down on those filthy rubes. But hey, guess what? This same policy has been in place for the past 45 years. And it was enforced by - you guessed it - Donald Trump when he was president.
https://news.yahoo.com/american-egg-board-forced-respond-194836443.html
Did ML tell you that? No.
Did Fox News bother to point that out? No.
What was the entire point of the article? To generate outrage. That's it. Not to fairly inform the reader. To get you to view Biden and Democrats as Christian-hating snobs.
And ML, and a lot of you all too, just went right along with it. Because he agrees with just generating outrage for the sake of outrage.
I maintain that the libertarian response is “why is this happening in the first place?”
And the answer, as is so often the case, is, "Because of power-mad, rules-making, punishment-lusting tribalists on BOTH SIDES!"
Yeah, that’s right up there with “hands up, don’t shoot” at generating outrage. When do the riots start?
Aside from the issue of what "libertarians" and "anarchists" actually believe as opposed to the theoretical consistency of their respective philosophies, I question whether libertarians either theoretically or pragmatically oppose the "imposition of costs" as an important concept. Externalities have always been the hobby horse of anti-libertarians even though the anti-libertarians put a lot more faith into the strength of that concern than can actually be supported. For example, most libertarians almost certainly believe that all the other alternatives proposed by the opponents of free markets and liberty impose far more and greater "externalities" than the few minor examples they seem to be so fond of. So the arguments in this new attempt are likely to fail on that basis alone.
I like the Non Agression Principle as a line in the sand. If you are on my side of the line you are a Libertarian. If not you are something else.
Where the arguments always come from is the additive nature of rights. We anarchists don't agree that rights can be additive, meaning just because there are a thousand of you who think my house needs to be burned down doesn't mean you aren't still violating the non agression principle by coming at my home with torches and molotov cocktails.
Most Libertarians compromise and agree that democraticly elected bodies can have more rights than an individual. The arguments start with where do you draw that line? That's why we debate abortion, taxation, roads and other topics. Where are we drawing the line.